[LSJ] Venenation revisited
salem
across two contradictory rulings:
"From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: [LSJ] Venenation and Change of Target
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Date: 2002-01-26 03:32:36 PST
Chris Berger wrote:
>
> So... I bleed with Lalitha and am blocked by Salbatore Bokkengro. I play
> Venenation, then Mask over to Samat Ramal-Ra. Samat plays another
> Venenation, bringing the total Corruption counters on Salbatore to 4, which
> is his current capacity. I now want to do 2 things. I really want to burn
> the Corruption counters to take control of Salbatore, and I also want to
> play Change of Target so that neither vampire ends up tapped...
>
> 1 - Is there any way that I can do both (I'm guessing no)?
Correct.
[snip other stuff]"
AND
"From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
Subject: Re: Coupla Questions about Setite corruption [LSJ]
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Date: 2001-08-05 09:25:34 PST
"Raille" <rai...@mich.com> wrote in message
news:3B6B08B4...@mich.com...
> LSJ wrote:
> > Then you play Venenation. Then Mask. Then Venenation, etc.
> > Whenthe effects are done, you either tap and enter combat
> > or tap and get stolen. (Getting stolen prevents the combat,
> > since the combatants now share the same controller).
> >
>
> So to clarify,
> Venenation
> Mask
> Change of target
> would allow you to take control of a minion, untapped.
>
> Correct?
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/"
Now, the first post is more recent, but it seems like the second post
is more explicit on the allowance of the Change of Target after
stealing the minion.
I know minions with the same controller cannot enter combat, but
surely you should still be able to play CoT before the impossible
combat is due?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
LSJ
> I was doing a spot of googling about venenation for a friend, and came
> across two contradictory rulings:
>
> "From: LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com)
> Subject: Re: [LSJ] Venenation and Change of Target
> Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
> Date: 2002-01-26 03:32:36 PST
>
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
>>So... I bleed with Lalitha and am blocked by Salbatore Bokkengro. I play
>>Venenation, then Mask over to Samat Ramal-Ra. Samat plays another
>>Venenation, bringing the total Corruption counters on Salbatore to 4, which
>>is his current capacity. I now want to do 2 things. I really want to burn
>>the Corruption counters to take control of Salbatore, and I also want to
>>play Change of Target so that neither vampire ends up tapped...
>>
>>1 - Is there any way that I can do both (I'm guessing no)?
>
>
> Correct.
>
> [snip other stuff]"
>
> AND
>
[snip incorrect ruling]
> Now, the first post is more recent, but it seems like the second post
> is more explicit on the allowance of the Change of Target after
> stealing the minion.
No. The first is explicitly saying that you cannot do both, at least
as explicitly as the second (outdated) ruling says that you can.
The second one is in error / has been overturned.
> I know minions with the same controller cannot enter combat, but
> surely you should still be able to play CoT before the impossible
> combat is due?
After taking control of the blocking minion, there is no blocking minion
(you cannot block your own actions), so Change of Target cannot be played.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Smiling Tom
since last rules revision, as it's the same mechanic as the Aching
Beauty-mask-AB.
"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:sbiglvkk3rpso6dl6...@4ax.com...
LSJ
No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original Venenation,
he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation. The 19-MAY-2003
RTR didn't change that.
P.S. Top-posting makes it difficult to follow a thread's conversation.
Please snip unreferenced quoted lines and post your reply below the
pertinent quoted lines.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Timlagor
> No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original Venenation,
> he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation. The 19-MAY-2003
> RTR didn't change that.
>
> P.S. Top-posting makes it difficult to follow a thread's conversation.
> Please snip unreferenced quoted lines and post your reply below the
> pertinent quoted lines.
What happened to the ruling that you could only play one of each action
modifier on any action? Did I dream it?
LSJ
> What happened to the ruling that you could only play one of each action
> modifier on any action? Did I dream it?
It still applies.
Smiling Tom
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:3F588335...@white-wolf.com...
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > I thought that this combo(venenation-mask-venenation) is no longer able
> > since last rules revision, as it's the same mechanic as the Aching
> > Beauty-mask-AB.
> >
> >
> No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original
Venenation,
> he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation. The
19-MAY-2003
> RTR didn't change that.
>
Call me european low-span short-minded, but ...I don't get it. Does it means
that i can play lost in crowds, then mask, then play another lost in crowds,
if I need to? what is the special ruling that allows me to play two
venenations during the same action? I understand it for Mask, since it's
actually played by another vamp, or superior cloak, etc. But not for
venenation. I mean, the 19/5 ruling sreally struck at the heart of one of
the decks I was most proud of, I understood it, though, no wonder there is
nothing to discuss about that. But I did so because I thought it was the
same case as venenation.
> P.S. Top-posting makes it difficult to follow a thread's conversation.
> Please snip unreferenced quoted lines and post your reply below the
> pertinent quoted lines.
>
Sorry for doing so, thought it's not my usual way to act. It was some sort
of quick answer, I haven't enough time to do it properly.
LSJ
>>he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation. The 19-MAY-2003
>>RTR didn't change that.
>
> Call me european low-span short-minded, but ...I don't get it. Does it means
> that i can play lost in crowds, then mask, then play another lost in crowds,
> if I need to? what is the special ruling that allows me to play two
Yes.
> venenations during the same action? I understand it for Mask, since it's
No special ruling. The restriction on action modifiers is per minion per
action, not simply per action.
> actually played by another vamp, or superior cloak, etc. But not for
> venenation. I mean, the 19/5 ruling sreally struck at the heart of one of
> the decks I was most proud of, I understood it, though, no wonder there is
> nothing to discuss about that. But I did so because I thought it was the
> same case as venenation.
Not sure how Mask could be chainable but Venenation or Lost in Crows would
not be.
The RTR says that Mask cannot be played if any effects have been applied
that couldn't be if the Masker were acting. Venenation doesn't trigger
that prohibition, since the Masker could have played it. And, since
he hasn't actually played it, he is free to play his own.
Contrast with Aching Beauty. After applying the Aching Beauty on vamp
X, vamp Y cannot Mask, since the Aching Beauty on X could not have been
applied if Y were acting.
Smiling Tom
> Smiling Tom wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> escribió en el mensaje
> >>No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original
Venenation,
> >>he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation. The
19-MAY-2003
> >>RTR didn't change that.
> >
> > Call me european low-span short-minded, but ...I don't get it. Does it
means
> > that i can play lost in crowds, then mask, then play another lost in
crowds,
> > if I need to? what is the special ruling that allows me to play two
>
> Yes.
>
not be done. Really.
> > venenations during the same action? I understand it for Mask, since it's
>
> No special ruling. The restriction on action modifiers is per minion per
> action, not simply per action.
Cristal clear
>
> > actually played by another vamp, or superior cloak, etc. But not for
> > venenation. I mean, the 19/5 ruling sreally struck at the heart of one
of
> > the decks I was most proud of, I understood it, though, no wonder there
is
> > nothing to discuss about that. But I did so because I thought it was the
> > same case as venenation
>
> Not sure how Mask could be chainable but Venenation or Lost in Crows would
> not be.
Vamp a bleeds, vamp b masks, vamp a masks again...
>
> The RTR says that Mask cannot be played if any effects have been applied
> that couldn't be if the Masker were acting. Venenation doesn't trigger
> that prohibition, since the Masker could have played it. And, since
> he hasn't actually played it, he is free to play his own.
>
> Contrast with Aching Beauty. After applying the Aching Beauty on vamp
> X, vamp Y cannot Mask, since the Aching Beauty on X could not have been
> applied if Y were acting.
>
That's the point i'm sad for :´(
LSJ
>>not be.
>
> Vamp a bleeds, vamp b masks, vamp a masks again...
That is: I'm not sure how one could allow that vamp C could play mask after
vamp B played mask without also allowing that vamp C could play Lost in
Crowds after vamp B played Lost in Crowds.
I didn't mean that one couldn't dream up a circular transition of actingness
that would bump into the "per minion" restriction (rather than a restriction
on chaining).
There's a difference between not being chainable and not being repeatable by
the same minion.
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> > What happened to the ruling that you could only play one of each action
> > modifier on any action? Did I dream it?
>
> It still applies.
So you can only play one venenation on each action?
Your previous post seems to contradict this:
"No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original
Venenation, he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation.
The 19-MAY-2003 RTR didn't change that."
That's a second Venenation played by a different vampire on the same
action.
The Lasombra
<Timlagor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>LSJ expounded:
>> Timlagor wrote:
>> > What happened to the ruling that you could only play one of each action
>> > modifier on any action? Did I dream it?
>> It still applies.
This is per minion per action.
It is not a ruling, it is the rules.
Definition of action modifiers 1.6.3.2
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
"A minion cannot play the same action modifier more than once during a
single action."
>So you can only play one venenation on each action?
No.
Each minion can only play 1 venenation on each action.
See the rules.
>Your previous post seems to contradict this:
Of course it does, you are reading something into the top reply that
isn't there.
>"No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original
>Venenation, he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation.
>The 19-MAY-2003 RTR didn't change that."
>That's a second Venenation played by a different vampire on the same
>action.
Which is correct.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
mgreen02
That last statement is correct, you just misquoted the rule in the
earlier post.
1.6.3 (iii)
"A MINION cannot play the same action modifier more than once during a
single action."
Emphasis mine. There is no contradiction.
Matt Green
LSJ
> LSJ expounded:
>
>>Timlagor wrote:
>>
>>>What happened to the ruling that you could only play one of each action
>>>modifier on any action? Did I dream it?
>>
>>It still applies.
>
>
> So you can only play one venenation on each action?
Each minion can only play one venenation on a given action.
> Your previous post seems to contradict this:
>
> "No. So long as the Masking vampire could've played the original
> Venenation, he can Mask. After Masking, he can play his own Venenation.
> The 19-MAY-2003 RTR didn't change that."
>
> That's a second Venenation played by a different vampire on the same
> action.
Correct.
Ira
>
> Contrast with Aching Beauty. After applying the Aching Beauty on vamp
> X, vamp Y cannot Mask, since the Aching Beauty on X could not have been
> applied if Y were acting.
The reason for this is that after applying the Aching Beauty, the
action is already blocked and thus it's too late to mask?
Ira
The Lasombra
No, the second vampire does not have the first vampire's Aching
Beauty.
Once it is determined that a block attempt will succeed, you may still
play Mask of a Thousand Faces at inferior obfuscate to change the
acting minion unless something like Aching Beauty enters the picture.
LSJ 2003-05-21
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3ECBCE1D.2090607%40white-wolf.com
LSJ 2003-05-20
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3ECA4FDC.9050502%40white-wolf.com
LSJ 2003-05-19 -- RTR 05-19-2003
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EC8F1DF.8030002%40white-wolf.com