A broken card already?
GreySeer
aren't as overpowered as they seem when you think about it. Most of them...
One card ( to me ) that is just too dirty is The Slaughterhouse.
I haven't got one here so I don't remember it's exact card text but it's a
location that is *not* unique, requires Harbingers, costs 1 pool and you can
tap it to burn the top two cards of your prey's library. Now add a vapmire
that, when ready makes your prey discard a card in their untap phase. Now
add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with cards
from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite amusing
and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ). Lastly
add a Fragment and/or a Barrens. With 3 Slaughterhouses in play you can make
your prey discard 6 cards a turn and with the other parts of the combo,
easily 8-9 cards a turn. No deck is going to last long against that.
The Slaughterhouse has only one weakness, it's a location. It can be stolen
or burned but stealing or burning a location requires a card that can do it.
The reality is that no decks play with many location burn/steal cards, if
any at all. Even if we do have the cards to do so ( assuming we weren't
forced to discard it by the very location we're trying to steal/destroy )
our Harbinger friends have Auspex as a clan discipline, the chances of the
action actually succeeding aren't too great. Even if we do succeed our
Slaughterhouse abusing friend has lost a meagre 1 pool investment and will
just play another.
But wait, there's more, Harbingers have Necromancy as an in clan discipline,
enter:
Haunt: Action, Necromancy, 1 blood
+1 stealth. [nec] Put this card on a location you control. The controller of
this location can burn this card to cause an action directed at this
location to fail. A location can have only one Haunt. [NEC] (D) Burn a
location that doesn't require Giovanni to play.
It's possible to protect The Slaughterhouse against Rampage, Haunt and Arson
and if The Slaughterhouse gets stolen, well, the Harbingers can just go and
burn it if they feel it's necesseary.
The effect is fine, but it's undercosted, possibly should be unique and way
too easy to abuse.
As soon as I get enough cards I'm going to buid a Slaughterhouse deck to
hopefully prove myself wrong.
Rob Treasure
My WORST fear realised. Might be wrong but The Slaughterhouse has a VERY
powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little cost and is
stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty concerned about this
bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG Hmmmmm.
Rob.
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
news:u0hskic...@news.supernews.com...
Mattrim.
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> >
> > of them aren't as overpowered as they seem when you think about
> > it. Most of them... One card ( to me ) that is just too dirty is The
> > Slaughterhouse.
> >
> > I haven't got one here so I don't remember it's exact card text but it's
> > a location that is *not* unique, requires Harbingers, costs 1 pool and
> > you can tap it to burn the top two cards of your prey's library.
>
>
> My WORST fear realised. Might be wrong but The Slaughterhouse
> has a VERY powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little
> cost and is stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty
> concerned about this bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG
> Hmmmmm.
Wow, did someone say Millstone?
Mind you, before the worrying and speculation begins, let's wait and see
the actual card text of The Slaughterhouse. What GreySeer describes
does seem quite extreme, especially when played in multiples, but
GreySeer himself states in the original post that "...I haven't got one
here so I don't remember it's exact card text but...". It is very possible
that something has been overlooked.
Watching and waiting,
M.
Reyda
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> Although there are some quite powerful cards in Bloodlines, most of them
> aren't as overpowered as they seem when you think about it. Most of
them...
> One card ( to me ) that is just too dirty is The Slaughterhouse.
>
> I haven't got one here so I don't remember it's exact card text but it's a
> location that is *not* unique, requires Harbingers, costs 1 pool and you
can
> tap it to burn the top two cards of your prey's library.
Yes it seems pretty powerful... Discard seems to be the harbinger's tactic.
> Now add a vapmire
> that, when ready makes your prey discard a card in their untap phase.
It's not really the one i fear...
> Now
> add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with cards
> from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite
amusing
> and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ).
This one is incredible. He's a 6 or 7 cap, i dont remember. Just put him
and, say, Constanza Vinci in play, Rush one of your opponent's fatties...
And play Infernal pursuit, then Trap, then Thougths Betrayd. You can make
your prey discard very very fast. If your deck is well tuned, you can draw
and play/discard about 30 cards from your opponent's deck in a single
combat.
I'll build the deck asap to prove this power is really too much for a low
cap vampire...
reyda
Roger Carhult
> > add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with
cards
> > from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite
> amusing
> > and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ).
>
> This one is incredible. He's a 6 or 7 cap, i dont remember. Just put him
> and, say, Constanza Vinci in play, Rush one of your opponent's fatties...
> And play Infernal pursuit, then Trap, then Thougths Betrayd. You can make
> your prey discard very very fast. If your deck is well tuned, you can
draw
> and play/discard about 30 cards from your opponent's deck in a single
> combat.
>
> I'll build the deck asap to prove this power is really too much for a low
> cap vampire...
Heh sounds really cool but not sure I understand exactly how it works. Can
you choose to replace form your own if you want? So it's always that you
have the choice between replace from prey's library and your own, for each
card drawn? Does the vamp with the specialty have to be ready for it to
work?
Roger
GreySeer
news:9ubd7i$7bujq$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
> > > Now
> > > add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with
> cards
> > > from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite
> > amusing
> > > and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ).
> >
> > This one is incredible. He's a 6 or 7 cap, i dont remember. Just put him
> > and, say, Constanza Vinci in play, Rush one of your opponent's
fatties...
> > And play Infernal pursuit, then Trap, then Thougths Betrayd. You can
make
> > your prey discard very very fast. If your deck is well tuned, you can
> draw
> > and play/discard about 30 cards from your opponent's deck in a single
> > combat.
> >
> > I'll build the deck asap to prove this power is really too much for a
low
> > cap vampire...
If I remeber rightly it's a 7.
> Heh sounds really cool but not sure I understand exactly how it works. Can
> you choose to replace form your own if you want? So it's always that you
> have the choice between replace from prey's library and your own, for each
> card drawn? Does the vamp with the specialty have to be ready for it to
> work?
You can replace from your own library. You can only replace from your prey's
library when you play a card from your hand, not if you discard. If you do
pick up from your prey's library the card is placed face up on the table too
so everyone knows what you picked up. I don't think the vampire's abilities
are overpowered, one is only one card a turn, the other has limitations and
inherent drawbacks.
GreySeer
"Mattrim." <mattrim...@home.com> wrote in message
news:kn9O7.10454$Rp6.3...@news2.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> "Rob Treasure" wrote...
> > "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> > >
> > > Although there are some quite powerful cards in Bloodlines, most
> > > of them aren't as overpowered as they seem when you think about
> > > it. Most of them... One card ( to me ) that is just too dirty is The
> > > Slaughterhouse.
> > >
> > > I haven't got one here so I don't remember it's exact card text but
it's
> > > a location that is *not* unique, requires Harbingers, costs 1 pool and
> > > you can tap it to burn the top two cards of your prey's library.
> >
> > I agree 100% with you here Greyseer,
> >
> > My WORST fear realised. Might be wrong but The Slaughterhouse
> > has a VERY powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little
> > cost and is stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty
> > concerned about this bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG
> > Hmmmmm.
>
> Wow, did someone say Millstone?
I don't have a real problem with the effect in itself, it adds a new
strategy. What I do have a problem with is that, it doesn't require any
actions at all. Every other strategy does. A Harbinger deck can wall up, get
out Slaughterhouses and burn through it's prey's entire deck in a couple of
turns. Once your prey has no deck, he's at your mercy and you haven't taken
a single action.
I watched it happen from across the table. The guy only had one
Slaughterhouse and Egotha, he churned through his prey's 60 card deck fairly
quickly at 3 cards a turn without taking any actions. He just sat there and
bounced bleeds w/ a Giovanni as has preys deck shrunk before him. Once his
prey was out of deck he bled him out. His prey wasn't a rush deck and didn't
have any location burning cards and therefore has no defence whatsoever.
Even rushing is a very limited defense, it can only stop you from getting
bled out by your prey or stop more Slaughterhouses from coming out, it in no
way stops you from losing cards without handing your grandpredator a VP.
> Mind you, before the worrying and speculation begins, let's wait and see
> the actual card text of The Slaughterhouse. What GreySeer describes
> does seem quite extreme, especially when played in multiples, but
> GreySeer himself states in the original post that "...I haven't got one
> here so I don't remember it's exact card text but...". It is very possible
> that something has been overlooked.
>
> Watching and waiting,
> M.
I'll either get one or write it down today but I'm sure there's no
restricton that I've overlooked in the card text.
bingotclown
GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> I don't have a real problem with the effect in itself, it adds a new
> strategy. What I do have a problem with is that, it doesn't require any
> actions at all. Every other strategy does. A Harbinger deck can wall up,
get
> out Slaughterhouses and burn through it's prey's entire deck in a couple
of
> turns.
Well.. there is the Smiling Jack and such that don't need actions. Of
course they can't be defended by Guard Duty as they aren't locations.
>Once your prey has no deck, he's at your mercy and you haven't taken
> a single action.
With SJ and others once your prey has no pool he's dead ;)
Having not seen the new cards I can't comment more but I thought I'd just
add my one pence worth ;)
John
Flux
The Slaughterhouse
Burn option
Harbingers of Skulls
1 pool
Master: location
Tap to burn up to 2 cards from the top of your prey's library.
That's it.
Combined with the HoS's already exceptional abilities for resource denial (like
the one who allows you to replace any card played with a card from your prey's
library), this is very abusive. Of course, during the Pre-Release events all
decks were small to start with, but, then again, I only saw 2 used at once, in a
normal constructed deck this could easily have been 4 or 5 after only a few
turns.
Flux
Flux
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> > Now
> > add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with cards
> > from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite
> amusing
> > and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ).
>
> This one is incredible. He's a 6 or 7 cap, i dont remember. Just put him
6 cap
> and, say, Constanza Vinci in play, Rush one of your opponent's fatties...
> And play Infernal pursuit, then Trap, then Thougths Betrayd. You can make
> your prey discard very very fast. If your deck is well tuned, you can draw
> and play/discard about 30 cards from your opponent's deck in a single
> combat.
I don't think that will work. Agaitas' text says 'whener you play a
card, you may draw its replacement...'. Cards drawn from Infernal
Pursuit are not drawn as replacements from any cards you play, so his
(hers?) special ability doesn't apply.
IMHO, IANALSJ, etc...
Flux
Orpheus
9ubd7i$7bujq$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
I have two questions now (I can't wait until monday...) :
- is there any card, Harbinger or other, that allows you to take a card in
someone else's ash pile, as you would in yours with Carlotta ?
- where did you guys get to see the previews (like, of Opera Houses...) ?
Anywhere on the net or only during pre-releases ?
--
Orpheus
http://cypheranima.free.fr
news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone
audio...@yahoogroups.com
Curevei
>powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little cost and is
>stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty concerned about this
>bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG Hmmmmm.
I'll start by disagreeing. I don't think it's a particularly powerful effect
in the grand scheme of trying to win a table.
However, I find it to be an obnoxious an unnecessary theme. I compare building
a deck around milling a player's library to Brainwash decks. Except, the rest
of the players can try to do something about Brainwash without putting in
particular cards, such as Arson.
At best, general milling completely screws one player. As it doesn't directly
do anything to oust, I'd expect the player to live for a quite a while, play
something like 20% of their deck, and eventually die to lack of options.
Meanwhile, one would hope that the other players are playing productively.
Yes, the Harbinger mill effects tend to carry over to a new prey, but if the
decks don't do something besides mill, it shouldn't matter too much.
What *is* so horrible about these effects is that they overly effect one player
and that they suck the joy out of playing, as all mill decks do. Comes back to
"I play cards to play cards".
BTW, my first round game, my second predator had out both Egothha and The
Slaughterhouse. In the end, probably helped me withdraw, though a Kindred
Restructure turned him into my prey. I'm not sure if helping someone withdraw
adds anything to a game.
As to whether it should be unique, I think if you polled those who played
against it in our prerelease, the vote would strongly be for that.
"He's a ... he's a reverse vampire. They ... they crave the Sun."
Ben Peal
> A Harbinger deck can wall up, get out Slaughterhouses and burn through it's
> prey's entire deck in a couple of turns.
While I'm also concerned about The Slaughterhouse, I think this assessment
is very inaccurate. It'll take more than a couple of turns to get through
a 90-card deck. Playing one Slaughterhouse every turn, it takes at least
eight turns to get through 54 cards (not including Egotha or Agaitas), and
it costs you eight pool. Oh, and that's eight turns and 8 pool without
pool gain masters, which means you've spent 13 blood on Agaitas and
Egotha, and 8 pool on Slaughterhouses, putting you at 9 pool, and you
haven't removed a drop of pool from your prey in 8 turns. Giving your prey
an eight-turn headstart is not a recipe for success.
Oh, and then when you're done with the Slaughterhouse shenanigans and
are looking to try to oust your prey, you've got the stellar ousting
combo of Aus/For/Nec. I guess maybe you can get a Pulse of the Canaille
or something. Whee.
In the meantime, you're also getting the glares from your grandprey, who's
be suffering through eight turns of constant pressure from his predator.
Despite this, I do remain concerned about the card, and would have felt
more at ease if it was unique. I recommend that you all try to abuse it
as much as you can, to at least see if our fears are misplaced.
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
Shaun McIsaac
fragment), this isn't so great. You just end up giving them a free
resource. Otherwise its annoying, though I'm not sure it's going to
get as many VP as you suspect. Depleting their deck has very little
effect until it's completely finished. Also, I'm not convinced the
HoS can just wall up arbitrarily. aus means they can block but that
drains blood, even with FOR.
The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message news:<u0hskic...@news.supernews.com>...
GreySeer
news:H0cO7.1467$003.4...@news11-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
> GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> news:u0ih4ka...@news.supernews.com...
>
> > I don't have a real problem with the effect in itself, it adds a new
> > strategy. What I do have a problem with is that, it doesn't require any
> > actions at all. Every other strategy does. A Harbinger deck can wall up,
> get
> > out Slaughterhouses and burn through it's prey's entire deck in a couple
> of
> > turns.
>
> Well.. there is the Smiling Jack and such that don't need actions. Of
> course they can't be defended by Guard Duty as they aren't locations.
Yes but he's unique and can be burned as a (D) action. One successful action
gets rid of him. The Slaughterhouse requires an action per slaughterhouse
and requires a card.
GreySeer
news:bf72a12e.01120...@posting.google.com...
> GreySeer wrote:
> > A Harbinger deck can wall up, get out Slaughterhouses and burn through
it's
> > prey's entire deck in a couple of turns.
>
> While I'm also concerned about The Slaughterhouse, I think this
assessment
> is very inaccurate. It'll take more than a couple of turns to get
through
> a 90-card deck. Playing one Slaughterhouse every turn, it takes at
least
> eight turns to get through 54 cards (not including Egotha or Agaitas),
and
> it costs you eight pool. Oh, and that's eight turns and 8 pool without
> pool gain masters, which means you've spent 13 blood on Agaitas and
> Egotha, and 8 pool on Slaughterhouses, putting you at 9 pool, and you
> haven't removed a drop of pool from your prey in 8 turns. Giving your
prey
> an eight-turn headstart is not a recipe for success.
Assuming the Slaughterhouse deck isn't doing anything to get more MPAs. 2
MPAs will make it work around 50% faster.
> Oh, and then when you're done with the Slaughterhouse shenanigans and
> are looking to try to oust your prey, you've got the stellar ousting
> combo of Aus/For/Nec. I guess maybe you can get a Pulse of the Canaille
> or something. Whee.
3 Bleed a turn that your prey can do very little to stop w/ no cards. Also
remeber that this Slaughterhousing is going on without the Slaughterhouse
deck taking *any actions whatsoever*.
GreySeer
building
> a deck around milling a player's library to Brainwash decks. Except, the
rest
> of the players can try to do something about Brainwash without putting in
> particular cards, such as Arson.
This is one of my points, Brainwash, while quite obnoxious, at least your
cross table buddies can help you out with the build in action ( at +1
stealth no less ).
> At best, general milling completely screws one player. As it doesn't
directly
> do anything to oust, I'd expect the player to live for a quite a while,
play
> something like 20% of their deck, and eventually die to lack of options.
> Meanwhile, one would hope that the other players are playing productively.
> Yes, the Harbinger mill effects tend to carry over to a new prey, but if
the
> decks don't do something besides mill, it shouldn't matter too much.
One of the major problems is that you can mill *in addition* to anything
else you want to do at the expense of only 1 pool per Slaughterhouse. At a
very rough guess you'd only need to dedicate 20 cards to the actual milling
part of the deck. 5 Parthenon and 15 Slaughterhouses should do it.
GreySeer
Can
> > you choose to replace form your own if you want? So it's always that you
> > have the choice between replace from prey's library and your own, for
each
> > card drawn? Does the vamp with the specialty have to be ready for it to
> > work?
Only by card text
Agaitas, The Scholar of Antiquities
Harbinger of Skulls, 6
AUS NEC for
Sabbat: Whenever you play a card you may draw it's replacement from your
prey's library instead of your own. Put the card face-up in front. It is
still considered to be in your hand, to be played or discarded as normal.
> I have two questions now (I can't wait until monday...) :
>
> - is there any card, Harbinger or other, that allows you to take a card in
> someone else's ash pile, as you would in yours with Carlotta ?
Not that I know of.
> - where did you guys get to see the previews (like, of Opera Houses...) ?
> Anywhere on the net or only during pre-releases ?
Just the pre-releases.
GreySeer
news:8f507d2e.01120...@posting.google.com...
> If your prey has Potchli or Carlotta Giovanni (or the Sargon
> fragment), this isn't so great. You just end up giving them a free
> resource. Otherwise its annoying, though I'm not sure it's going to
> get as many VP as you suspect. Depleting their deck has very little
> effect until it's completely finished. Also, I'm not convinced the
> HoS can just wall up arbitrarily. aus means they can block but that
> drains blood, even with FOR.
No, not quite as great but you can run them out of library just as quick.
Once they're out you can tap an unused Slaughterhouse as soon as they
complete their fetch cards from the ash heap action and have them discard
them.
> The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
Which is why you use the Barrens or Fragment to get rid of them and replace
from your library. It's only particularly useful if your objective is to run
your prey out of cards.
Tetragrammaton
"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:9uc27a$s6c$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> a écrit dans le message news:
> 9ubd7i$7bujq$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
<snip>
> I have two questions now (I can't wait until monday...) :
>
> - is there any card, Harbinger or other, that allows you to take a card in
> someone else's ash pile, as you would in yours with Carlotta ?
>
Yeah, we get Grasp the Ghostly from the recent Final Night:
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Necromancy
+1 stealth {action}.
[nec] (D) Move a non-unique, non-location equipment from any other
Methuselah's ash heap to this minion. Put 3 Pathos counters on that
equipment. Burn a Pathos counter during each of your untap phases. Remove
the equipment from the game if it has no Pathos counters.
[NEC] As above, but the equipment can be unique.
So, let's discard White Phosporous grenade, leather jackets and other
burnable equipment,
and you'll do a very nasty trick, in combo with these news resources denial
Harbingers things....
I'm strarting to doubt if that this Bl stuff has been playtested well......
I think that this will not help.(at deeming the Harbingers balanced..).;)...
Best
Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome
<snip>
> --
bingotclown
GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> > Well.. there is the Smiling Jack and such that don't need actions. Of
> > course they can't be defended by Guard Duty as they aren't locations.
>
> Yes but he's unique and can be burned as a (D) action. One successful
action
> gets rid of him. The Slaughterhouse requires an action per slaughterhouse
> and requires a card.
Agreed.. I was just pointing out that there is another strategy (that has
won tournaments) that doesn't require action coupled with Antediluvian
Awakening, Anarch Revolt, Army of rats (action of course).. I just though
that a card that removes pool as opposed to cards would be more efficient.
John
Rob Treasure
"Curevei" <cur...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011202012401...@mb-cf.aol.com...
> >My WORST fear realised. Might be wrong but The Slaughterhouse has a VERY
> >powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little cost and is
> >stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty concerned about
this
> >bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG Hmmmmm.
>
> I'll start by disagreeing. I don't think it's a particularly powerful
effect
> in the grand scheme of trying to win a table.
With all due respect, that's not what I was referring to. As you rightly say
later on in the post, the milling effect is very bad news for one player.
This tactic can and will be used in conjunction with other effects to make
very proactive decks. The fact that it may be difficult to oust your prey
with the available disciplines is almost inconsequential as IMO the main
issue is the flood like introduction of a very powerful (if not
conventional) effect.
For my money, The Slaughterhouse is cheap and far to easy to use / stack. I
don't even want to think about it in conjunction with Courier decks, FELINE
SABOTEUR !!! (shit, that's ridiculous together) and the other new discard
cards.
Basically what I was trying to say and got a bit sidetracked, is that
players don't (still despite new rulings) always play to oust thier prey,
and even if they do, these effects can very easily be worked in.
Rob.
GreySeer
> won tournaments) that doesn't require action coupled with Antediluvian
> Awakening, Anarch Revolt, Army of rats (action of course).. I just though
> that a card that removes pool as opposed to cards would be more efficient.
Oh, ok. My complaint is more about the combined factors of the lack of
actions required to make it work plus the difficulty of getting rid of the
damn things. Remove one aspect and I don't think it would be broken. Make it
cost more, make it (D) actionable, make it unique, make it 1 card any one of
those things would, IMO make it "unbroken"
GreySeer
I
> don't even want to think about it in conjunction with Courier decks,
FELINE
> SABOTEUR !!! (shit, that's ridiculous together) and the other new discard
> cards.
Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to make a Harbinger/!Nossie Courrier + Feline
Sabetur + Slaughterhouse deck.
Typical turn:
Tap 3 Slaughterhouses = 6 cards
Night Moves
Tap 3 courriers = +3 cards
Feline Saboteur = +4 cards
That's 11 cards a turn.
I have no problem with courriers and Feline Sabotuer however, courriers
require you to spend 2 blood and a successful recruit action each. Feline
Sabotuer is an action. Both of these can be stopped by a perfectly "normal"
deck. ( If you play without intercept or rush then you deserve to loose 7
cards a turn :)
Tetragrammaton
"Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:8f507d2e.01120...@posting.google.com...
> If your prey has Potchli or Carlotta Giovanni (or the Sargon
> fragment), this isn't so great. You just end up giving them a free
> resource. Otherwise its annoying, though I'm not sure it's going to
> get as many VP as you suspect. Depleting their deck has very little
> effect until it's completely finished. Also, I'm not convinced the
> HoS can just wall up arbitrarily. aus means they can block but that
> drains blood, even with FOR.
>
> The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
You discard it, either in your discard, or with a barrens....
Imho, this library destruction looks awful to me.....
EMiliano, vekn prince of Rome
Teemu T Vilen
: "Curevei" <cur...@aol.com> wrote in message
: news:20011202012401...@mb-cf.aol.com...
:> >My WORST fear realised. Might be wrong but The Slaughterhouse has a VERY
:> >powerful, game changing effect, is easy to use, at little cost and is
:> >stackable. I'll write (a lot) more later but i'm pretty concerned about
: this
:> >bad boy. Common as well. Hmmmmm, a BIG Hmmmmm.
:> I'll start by disagreeing. I don't think it's a particularly powerful
:> effect in the grand scheme of trying to win a table.
: don't even want to think about it in conjunction with Courier decks, FELINE
: SABOTEUR !!! (shit, that's ridiculous together) and the other new discard
: cards.
The moment I saw the card I hated it's very existance in Jyhad. Either
uniqueness or milling just one card (as in the first test versions iirc)
would've been tolerable. Still in no way interesting or
challenging from deck building POV, but tolerable.
First of all, I deeply hate resource denial. I did my share of
millstoning with MtG and I seriously think that as a strategy it doesn't
fit into VtES at all. What I like about Jyhad is the fact that you have
to put some effort into making things happen and device
counterstrategies to make a deck work. Magic style of "I wont plan but
instead just remove your library" just upsets the person whose
strategies are being milled away. A card that doesn't interact with
it's surroundings in any interesting way but instead just crops cards
from your library is plain boring.
I especially don't like the straightforwardness of the effect. Courier
is "a guy employed by that guy to do all kind of sneaky stuff and you'd
never expect him to be the person who secretly reads your mail and
sells the info to your enemies". The Slaughterhouse is "Millstone card
that removes the top two cards from your prey's library". Too simple
usage of mechanics. Yuk. And since this is mostly irrational hate
towards the card, I don't even start to think how that differs from for
instance modifying bleed :)
Courier is kind of ok as it's an ally and you never see enough of them.
Feline Saboteur is slowly climbing upwards in my hate list but as it's
likely to be used mainly by Nosferatu I don't mind.
In any case, I'll propably end up refusing to play in the same table
with Slaughterhouses or start abusing the card heavily myself. Grumble.
//T
Orpheus
news: m2nO7.221170$sq5.10...@news.infostrada.it...
>
> "Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:9uc27a$s6c$1...@wanadoo.fr...
> > "Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> a écrit dans le message news:
> > 9ubd7i$7bujq$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
>
> <snip>
> > I have two questions now (I can't wait until monday...) :
> >
> > - is there any card, Harbinger or other, that allows you to take a card
in
> > someone else's ash pile, as you would in yours with Carlotta ?
> >
>
> Yeah, we get Grasp the Ghostly from the recent Final Night:
>
> Cardtype: Action
> Discipline: Necromancy
> +1 stealth {action}.
> [nec] (D) Move a non-unique, non-location equipment from any other
> Methuselah's ash heap to this minion. Put 3 Pathos counters on that
> equipment. Burn a Pathos counter during each of your untap phases. Remove
> the equipment from the game if it has no Pathos counters.
> [NEC] As above, but the equipment can be unique.
>
> So, let's discard White Phosporous grenade, leather jackets and other
> burnable equipment,
> and you'll do a very nasty trick, in combo with these news resources
denial
> Harbingers things....
Yes, I knew about that one, but didn't think how this not-so-useful card can
become much more so in conjunction with the library depleting of the
Harbingers... :-)
Any new card from Bloodlines ? Any new necro card, for that matter ?
> I'm strarting to doubt if that this Bl stuff has been playtested
well......
I think it must have been tested very thoroughly. And the Baali and
Gargoyles, from what I've seen, appear much, much deadlier ! The FoS seem to
have won much in this extension, and obviously the Aus / For decks ; maybe
the Giovanni (lots of Nec, but we'll have to wait to see the possible
interesting combos) ; the Ventrue voters ; and maybe the Lasombra (I kind of
expected the first DOM/OBT Kyasid to cost less than 7 !!).
Just watch them FoS / Baali in the next weeks, and we'll see if the
Harbingers are that fearsome... ;-)
Orpheus, Prince of Nowhere (and subburbs).
bingotclown
GreySeer <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
Yes.. The seeming lack of any sidefect we all can agree on ;) And of course
the power of the card is indisputable. The question though remains if you
can win tournaments with it. I have had no experience of Courier decks or
the like but is it really going to be possible to sweep tables with it?
Ah.. but I'm forgetting about the new tourney rules about winning by being
last man standing (or something like that). The Slaughterhouses are going
to be painful in the endgame ;)
On another point, Is it really more powerful than any of the other power
cards (Hostiles, Parity Shift, Fifth trad etc? And if a card such as this
hadn't come up would we all be complaining about the lack power cards in
this new set? ;)
cheers
John
oaflord
"Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> wrote in message
> The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
Well you didn't have Steam Tunnels at your disposal, so don't pre-judge...
;-)
oAFLORD
"Snootch to the Nootch."
Jay
Orpheus
> has
> > > won tournaments) that doesn't require action coupled with Antediluvian
> > > Awakening, Anarch Revolt, Army of rats (action of course).. I just
> though
> > > that a card that removes pool as opposed to cards would be more
> efficient.
> >
> last man standing (or something like that). The Slaughterhouses are going
> to be painful in the endgame ;)
Is there any rule stating that you are ousted when you have no library left
? I was only aware of the withdrawal option rule...
Orph
LSJ
> I don't think that will work. Agaitas' text says 'whener you play a
> card, you may draw its replacement...'. Cards drawn from Infernal
> Pursuit are not drawn as replacements from any cards you play, so his
> (hers?) special ability doesn't apply.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
bingotclown
Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9udcae$r1e$1...@wanadoo.fr...
not as far as I know.. But what are you going to do with no cards left? ;)
John
Roger Carhult
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
3 bleed a turn at no stealth. Prey don't need to have any cards to block it
as long as they have minions. Also with aus, nec and for they won't be that
dangerous in combat, unless dawn operation which could be circumvented with
a single Flak Jacket for example. Or that someone cross table makes a rescue
action for you. Nec can give some stealth though but then there could be
permanent intercept to gain from the table. I'm not convinced Slaughterhouse
is *too* bad really, but it remains to be seen. I odn't believe ind rawing a
Slaughterhouse for play every turn the first 8 turns in a row either OR that
you gain an extra MPA really fast to make a different AND after that have
TWO Slaughterhouses to play every round and be able to pay for them.
Roger
Reyda
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C0A3756...@white-wolf.com...
> Flux wrote:
> > I don't think that will work. Agaitas' text says 'whener you play a
> > card, you may draw its replacement...'. Cards drawn from Infernal
> > Pursuit are not drawn as replacements from any cards you play, so his
> > (hers?) special ability doesn't apply.
>
> Correct.
mmm...
By card text, it seems you can draw 2 cards from your prey's library each
time you replace one under infernal pursuit....
explain me how it works then =)
INFERNAL PURSUIT[Jyhad, V:TES]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card, draw an
additional card and then burn one card in your hand for each additional card
drawn.
Roger Carhult
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> > For my money, The Slaughterhouse is cheap and far to easy to use /
stack.
> I
> > don't even want to think about it in conjunction with Courier decks,
> FELINE
> > SABOTEUR !!! (shit, that's ridiculous together) and the other new
discard
> > cards.
>
> Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to make a Harbinger/!Nossie Courrier +
Feline
> Sabetur + Slaughterhouse deck.
>
> Typical turn:
>
> Tap 3 Slaughterhouses = 6 cards
Doesn't Slaughterhouse require a Harbinger? I may be wrong, but the lowest
Harbinger I've heard of is a 6 cap. Which means you won't get the
Slaughterhouse out before turn 3 normally. This significantly slows down the
strategy...
> Night Moves
> Tap 3 courriers = +3 cards
...and to bring out a !Nos after that takes at least another turn. Then
ANTOHER turn to take the recruit Courier action. At bes,t the !Nos will have
2 blood after that if you brought out a 4 cap, to take a new Courier action
the next turn. Which means that first in turn 6 you'll be able to tap two
Couriers (unless you manage to bleed in turn 5 with your Harbinger after
recruiting 2nd Courier) and 3 Slaughterhouses. But this only works if
everyhting works perfectly, no recruits blocked, a 4 cap !Nos in
uncontrolled plus a Harbinger that's not a 9 cap, starting with at least 2
transfers etc.
> Feline Saboteur = +4 cards
For that one you need to bring out Ox, which means yet another turn unless
you drew both Agaitas and Ox/Nigel/Christianus from start and started with
3/4 transfers...not likely.
Roger Carhult
"oaflord" <oaf...@sprint.ca> wrote in message
news:%_pO7.2007$y84....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
>
> "Shaun McIsaac" <smci...@onesourcecorp.com> wrote in message
>
> > The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> > happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
>
> Well you didn't have Steam Tunnels at your disposal, so don't pre-judge...
> ;-)
Hmm Steam Tunnels...Barrens...Fragment...+ X Slaughterhouses. That's and
awful lot of masters. Especially since you want to double up on Barrens and
Fragments too to draw them reliably.
Roger
Tetragrammaton
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:9udfpm$6tcan$1...@ID-104455.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote in message
> news:u0k92j2...@news.supernews.com...
> > > For my money, The Slaughterhouse is cheap and far to easy to use /
> stack.
> > I
> > > don't even want to think about it in conjunction with Courier decks,
> > FELINE
> > > SABOTEUR !!! (shit, that's ridiculous together) and the other new
> discard
> > > cards.
> >
> > Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to make a Harbinger/!Nossie Courrier +
> Feline
> > Sabetur + Slaughterhouse deck.
> >
> > Typical turn:
> >
> > Tap 3 Slaughterhouses = 6 cards
>
> Doesn't Slaughterhouse require a Harbinger? I may be wrong, but the lowest
> Harbinger I've heard of is a 6 cap. Which means you won't get the
> Slaughterhouse out before turn 3 normally. This significantly slows down
the
> strategy...
>
Aehm, can you say "clan impersonation" ?
Say it...and you'll see that even a low 3 cap Shannon Price, The whisperer
can make you put in play as many Slaughterhouses as you want....
My feeling in general for this millstone-like location is just that:
an unbalancing card, that will need soon an errata (making it unique).
Just my thought
EMiliano, vekn Prince of Rome
<snip>
Roger Carhult
> Aehm, can you say "clan impersonation" ?
>
> Say it...and you'll see that even a low 3 cap Shannon Price, The whisperer
> can make you put in play as many Slaughterhouses as you want....
> My feeling in general for this millstone-like location is just that:
> an unbalancing card, that will need soon an errata (making it unique).
>
> Just my thought
Well if you can count, it will still take two turns. Two bring out Agaitas
takes 2 influence phases. Two birng out Shannon and next turn take a CI
action takes two turns. It's all the same (except you save some pool but
OTOH you have a vamp with only one blood now and easy to kill and then you
can't play more Slaugtherhouses).
Roger
Peter D Bakija
>>Despite this, I do remain concerned about the card, and would have felt
more at ease if it was unique. I recommend that you all try to abuse it
as much as you can, to at least see if our fears are misplaced.>>
Yeah, this card opens up yet another "I can't win, but boy can I screw over my
prey and help my grand prey sweep the table!" strategy, similar to Brainwash
decks or badly designed Rush decks.
Sure, it seems unlikely that they will be winning many tournaments (as the
effort it takes to quickly deplete your prey's library and then actually oust
them is too great to be particularly viable), but folks will be playing them
and it will totally suck to sit as the prey of one. Yeah, you can say the same
things about many types of decks, but this is yet another deck that it will
totally suck to sit next to and to no good end, as they guy playing it isn't
going to win, he is just going to make you lose.
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"...and the only person I can stand to be around
is a neutered vampire who cheats at kitten poker!"
-Buffy
Derek Ray
>I haven't got one here so I don't remember it's exact card text but it's a
>location that is *not* unique, requires Harbingers, costs 1 pool and you can
>tap it to burn the top two cards of your prey's library. Now add a vapmire
>that, when ready makes your prey discard a card in their untap phase. Now
...another 7 pool down the tubes, and a vampire that can't Deflect (he
can Telepathic Misdirection, but that's expensive and taps you).
>add a vampire that lets you replace cards played from your hand with cards
>from your prey's library ( I actually like this ability, it's quite amusing
...total of 13 pool down the tubes for two vamps so far, before anything
gets going...
>and limited in that you have to have played a card from your hand ). Lastly
>add a Fragment and/or a Barrens. With 3 Slaughterhouses in play you can make
>your prey discard 6 cards a turn and with the other parts of the combo,
>easily 8-9 cards a turn. No deck is going to last long against that.
3 master phases and 3 extra pool, AFTER getting out the first Harbinger,
so figure this doesn't really ramp up until turn 6 in a game that
normally lasts 12 turns.
Now that you've STARTED burning 10% of your prey's library every turn,
you still won't have emptied his library by the time the game is over.
How do you intend to oust anyone ... and how do you intend to gain more
than 1 VP? I don't see this as a game-winning strategy, although you
will certainly piss off your prey no end... but you'll also pretty much
set up your grandprey to sweep.
I believe this is the real "hidden" weakness of the Slaughterhouse --
emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him, and you have no
way to empty your grandprey's library when you finally get to him,
because you have no TIME to do so. As Peter is fond of saying, "so you
make me discard 5 cards, I'll get something almost as good". I don't
really agree with him on that, but plenty of people DO play focussed
enough decks that it'll be difficult to really put a dent in someone's
stuff.
>The Slaughterhouse has only one weakness, it's a location. It can be stolen
>or burned but stealing or burning a location requires a card that can do it.
>The reality is that no decks play with many location burn/steal cards, if
Oh, this is very, very, very wrong. I wrote about this in the November
!Brujah newsletter -- around here there are at LEAST two Arsons in every
deck, because there are SO MANY good locations to play with right now!
I know that many other areas also pack burn cards, although
interestingly, I only know of two decks in the Southeast pre-release
that included an Arson (mine and Mike Perlman's). I never managed to
draw mine, despite being down to between 2-7 cards in my library in two
different rounds.
The Slaughterhouse simply ranks fairly high on the "burn this location
NOW" charts... and only if you're its prey.
>any at all. Even if we do have the cards to do so ( assuming we weren't
>forced to discard it by the very location we're trying to steal/destroy )
>our Harbinger friends have Auspex as a clan discipline, the chances of the
>action actually succeeding aren't too great. Even if we do succeed our
Excellent! You can just beat the hell out of the Harbinger, removing
his ability to play more Slaughterhouses, and removing that Harbinger's
ability to discard your cards (since Agaitas or Egottha are the most
likely blockers in this deck).
>Slaughterhouse abusing friend has lost a meagre 1 pool investment and will
>just play another.
well, not after all his Harbingers are in torpor. Sure, they've got
Fortitude, but I don't REALLY see this saving them for that long.
>But wait, there's more, Harbingers have Necromancy as an in clan discipline,
>enter:
>Haunt: Action, Necromancy, 1 blood
>+1 stealth. [nec] Put this card on a location you control. The controller of
>this location can burn this card to cause an action directed at this
>location to fail. A location can have only one Haunt. [NEC] (D) Burn a
>location that doesn't require Giovanni to play.
some more extra actions taken... Now you can intercept the Haunt and
beat the hell out of the Harbinger.
>It's possible to protect The Slaughterhouse against Rampage, Haunt and Arson
> and if The Slaughterhouse gets stolen, well, the Harbingers can just go and
>burn it if they feel it's necesseary.
Excellent. Another action wasted on not ousting your prey. =)
I think the Slaughterhouse is best used by putting 3 or so in a deck and
just playing them as they arrive. The nuisance factor of even one in
play should -definitely- assist you in ousting your prey, which is
probably a good thing considering that AUS/FOR/NEC isn't the easiest
thing to oust someone with.
And yes, someone will eventually build a Brainwash-style deck that gets
1VP and explodes gloriously. There really isn't much anyone can do
about decks that aren't designed to win -- anyone can build and play
one, and probably will. =/ The Slaughterhouse doesn't make it any
easier or harder, it just gives "that kind" another option.
--
Derek
...Vampire Squirrel has come to bite your nuts!
Robert Goudie
"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@aol.comANTISPAM> wrote in message
news:20011202113458...@mb-cq.aol.com...
> Ben wrote:
> >>Despite this, I do remain concerned about the card, and would have felt
> more at ease if it was unique. I recommend that you all try to abuse it
> as much as you can, to at least see if our fears are misplaced.>>
>
> Yeah, this card opens up yet another "I can't win, but boy can I screw over my
> prey and help my grand prey sweep the table!" strategy, similar to Brainwash
> decks or badly designed Rush decks.
Hey man. Stop dissin' the Brainwash decks. :) Mine does quite well. I'd think
that having 2 in the finals at Origins this year (IIRC) would be enough to end
the "Brainwash only ousts 1 prey" myth.
-Robert
LSJ
Card text: you draw an addtional card when you replace a card.
If, per your ruling, the additional card was also a replacement card, then
you'd re-trigger IP, drawing your whole library in one puff.
Correct ruling: the additional card is drawn (card text). This additional
card draw isn't the "card drawn to replace the played card".
Function: You play a card. You draw its replacement (from your deck or, if
you control Agaitas, from your prey's). If sup IP is in effect, then you
draw an additional card (from your library).
Tetragrammaton
I was just meaning that you don't need to have
Harbingers vampires in yuor crypt at all
to use (play) that Slaughters(power) house.
CI do the trick, that's all.
And, besides this, most of the deck's players at the table will "start"
their strategy
functionings after the initial two-three turns.
And so, given that, with this "millstone" deck, you are likely to screw, or
at least to
mess in a very large scale, your prey' strategy.
Of course, i'll wait to build and play such an "abusing-slaughterhouse-deck"
to
tell it for sure.
Best
Emiliano, prince of Rome
> Roger
>
>
The Tim
> INFERNAL PURSUIT[Jyhad, V:TES]
> Cardtype: Combat
>
> Discipline: Celerity
>
> [cel] Press.
> [CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card, draw an
> additional card and then burn one card in your hand for each additional card
> drawn.
replace. The vampire's power only deals with the source of the
replace, not with cards that are drawn as a result of a replace or
anyother sort of draw. So it comes down to the fact that it doesn't
say, "Replace every one card played with two." or something like that.
As for the idea that Slaughterhoe and deck denial in general is too
powerful I give a snort of amusement. The strategy was effective in
Magic because you would actually lose when you ran out of cards and
you could get out the components quickly. In Jyhad you're doing a lot
of set up to do something that may end up in your prey withdrawing.
I don't think that deck denial as a strategy in and of itself will be
ble to win except by fluke. As a side theme to heavy aggression where
your voice your prey to defend against a variety of things it can
easily make them run out of ways to protect themselves and then you
start hammering at the weak spot you've made.
Shaun McIsaac
> > If your prey has Potchli or Carlotta Giovanni (or the Sargon
> > fragment), this isn't so great. You just end up giving them a free
> > resource. Otherwise its annoying, though I'm not sure it's going to
> > get as many VP as you suspect. Depleting their deck has very little
> > effect until it's completely finished. Also, I'm not convinced the
> > HoS can just wall up arbitrarily. aus means they can block but that
> > drains blood, even with FOR.
>
With Carlotta/SF you are giving them a 1 blood "search for any card"
effect.
Potchli makes it a quite a bit tougher. I just don't see this ousting
regularly when decks aren't 60 cards.
> > The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> > happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
> Which is why you use the Barrens or Fragment to get rid of them and replace
> from your library.
I did. I had Barrens in play with him, and he still sucked. If it
read "whenever you discard" instead of "whenever you play" it would be
different as you could load up on discard vamps and cards (death of my
conscience, deal with the devil, etc). Now if your prey is playing
aus, for, or nec.....
Rob Treasure
news:ablk0u8qh40fl6qe0...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 02:08:14 +1100, "GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> wrote:
[snip]
> Now that you've STARTED burning 10% of your prey's library every turn,
> you still won't have emptied his library by the time the game is over.
> How do you intend to oust anyone ... and how do you intend to gain more
> than 1 VP? I don't see this as a game-winning strategy, although you
> will certainly piss off your prey no end... but you'll also pretty much
> set up your grandprey to sweep.
See what you mean, but it really isn't going to be long before you see small
efficient decks expanding into CI with new (and virtually single) card
tactics like SH around (oh! look, here's one on my card table now :o). I for
one am not looking forward to a weenie Pre or Pot deck with an obscene
number of SH's as well as speed vote or pain.
> I believe this is the real "hidden" weakness of the Slaughterhouse --
> emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him,
What???? I agree it is not a direct route but surely having little or no
cards is a pretty bloody shite situation to be in for your amazingly
disheartened prey ? No card bleed, combat, blood gain etc. etc. etc.
It _does_ help you oust your prey by denying them one of the major resources
in the game.
As an aside, do people think the # of permanents will increase as a result
of this new tactic ? IMO Not many decks use enough perms to survive against
a decent SH deck in the mid to endgame.
>and when you have no way to empty your grandprey's library when you finally
get to him,
> because you have no TIME to do so.
Don't agree here. By the time you have stonewalled (assuming For / Aus
etc.) and 'got around' to ousting your prey through card denial or whatever,
your grand prey's library would be one third - half gone ? Even 2-3 SH's
would be astoundingly useful in the endgame.
Rob.
Sten During
Tetragrammaton wrote:
>
>I was just meaning that you don't need to have
>Harbingers vampires in yuor crypt at all
>to use (play) that Slaughters(power) house.
>CI do the trick, that's all.
>And, besides this, most of the deck's players at the table will "start"
>their strategy
>functionings after the initial two-three turns.
>And so, given that, with this "millstone" deck, you are likely to screw, or
>at least to
>mess in a very large scale, your prey' strategy.
>Of course, i'll wait to build and play such an "abusing-slaughterhouse-deck"
>to
>tell it for sure.
>Best
>
>Emiliano, prince of Rome
>
>
Why bother, there's already Agaitas whos does NOT, repeat NOT, need two
master Celerity
Discipline-cards. He'll ruin your day with Infernal Pursuit. If you're
careful you'll draw one card
from your own library and one from your preys - just to be certain you
don't have to discard
any of your own precious cards...
Sten During
Sten During
Orpheus wrote:
>
>Yes, I knew about that one, but didn't think how this not-so-useful card can
>become much more so in conjunction with the library depleting of the
>Harbingers... :-)
>
>Any new card from Bloodlines ? Any new necro card, for that matter ?
>
You are a very evil person, and yes, there is one that requires Superior
Temporis for your
wanted effect. Move a non-unique equipment card from any Metuselahs ash
heap to this
vampire. If the card comes from your own ash heap, pay half the cost
(round down),
otherwise no cost is paid.
I'll have to reconsider my Assault-rifle-deck in the future. Can't have
those for free when
I can't afford equipping any longer ;)
Sten During
Sten During
Rob Treasure wrote:
>
>>I believe this is the real "hidden" weakness of the Slaughterhouse --
>>emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him,
>>
>
>What???? I agree it is not a direct route but surely having little or no
>cards is a pretty bloody shite situation to be in for your amazingly
>disheartened prey ? No card bleed, combat, blood gain etc. etc. etc.
>It _does_ help you oust your prey by denying them one of the major resources
>in the game.
>
>As an aside, do people think the # of permanents will increase as a result
>of this new tactic ? IMO Not many decks use enough perms to survive against
>a decent SH deck in the mid to endgame.
>
>
I actually agree that it won't win you games unless used with finesse.
What about one single
SH together with Tiberius Scandalmonger? If I don't like what I see on
top I discard it and
one more card. A selective milling like this might actually do the thing.
Sten During
GreySeer
> cards (Hostiles, Parity Shift, Fifth trad etc? And if a card such as this
> hadn't come up would we all be complaining about the lack power cards in
> this new set? ;)
Yes ( IMO ), for lack of any signifigant penalty, cost or requirement and
the difficulty in getting rid of it once it's in play.
Anything that's an action can be blocked so that automatically gives them a
signifigant "cost" that the Slaughterhouse doesn't have.
Hostile gives whoever you Hostile pool, unless they win the bid themselves
of course but then they only loose half the winning bid. It could also
result in your predator getting the vampire which is probably not the
desired result. It's also a one-off. A master that you could tap to start a
Hostile Takeover type effect would be broken.
GreySeer
it
> as long as they have minions. Also with aus, nec and for they won't be
that
> dangerous in combat, unless dawn operation which could be circumvented
with
> a single Flak Jacket for example. Or that someone cross table makes a
rescue
> action for you. Nec can give some stealth though but then there could be
> permanent intercept to gain from the table. I'm not convinced
Slaughterhouse
> is *too* bad really, but it remains to be seen. I odn't believe ind rawing
a
> Slaughterhouse for play every turn the first 8 turns in a row either OR
that
> you gain an extra MPA really fast to make a different AND after that have
> TWO Slaughterhouses to play every round and be able to pay for them.
When you have your library and you prey doesn't you should be able to put
your prey's minions in torpor or get past them. You'd only need 4 or 5
Slaughterhouses in play to make this kind of deck devastating. 5 pool? Gee,
break the bank already! One blood doll pays for half of that at 2 being
played a turn. If you play w/ enough Slaughterhouses in your deck, sure you
could draw one every turn. My first attempt at a deck will probably have 12
in a 60 card deck.
GreySeer
> effort it takes to quickly deplete your prey's library and then actually
oust
> them is too great to be particularly viable), but folks will be playing
them
> and it will totally suck to sit as the prey of one. Yeah, you can say the
same
> things about many types of decks, but this is yet another deck that it
will
> totally suck to sit next to and to no good end, as they guy playing it
isn't
> going to win, he is just going to make you lose.
It remains to be seen as to wether you could win with one, I think it's
possible but table wraith will probably stop you rather than the deck
itself.
Tetragrammaton
"Sten During" <ya...@netg.se> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:3C0AA964...@netg.se...
<snip>
> Why bother, there's already Agaitas whos does NOT, repeat NOT, need two
> master Celerity
> Discipline-cards. He'll ruin your day with Infernal Pursuit. If you're
> careful you'll draw one card
> from your own library and one from your preys - just to be certain you
> don't have to discard
> any of your own precious cards...
>
AFAIK, that Aigatas' ability doesn't work with Infernal Pursuit,
since you must actually "play" the cards, and not just discard them (as
with IP at the end of combat, returing to your "original" hand size)....
Maybe you mean a different thing, but ayway i pointing this just
to make things clear..:)
Emiliano
GreySeer
> Feline
> > Sabetur + Slaughterhouse deck.
> >
> > Typical turn:
> >
> > Tap 3 Slaughterhouses = 6 cards
>
> Doesn't Slaughterhouse require a Harbinger? I may be wrong, but the lowest
> Harbinger I've heard of is a 6 cap. Which means you won't get the
> Slaughterhouse out before turn 3 normally. This significantly slows down
the
> strategy...
So what if it's turn 3? No-one else would have done anything by turn 3
either ( except a weenie deck ). It in no way slows down the strategy since
most players won't have played more than 1 or 2 cards by turn 3.
> > Night Moves
> > Tap 3 courriers = +3 cards
>
> ...and to bring out a !Nos after that takes at least another turn. Then
> ANTOHER turn to take the recruit Courier action. At bes,t the !Nos will
have
> 2 blood after that if you brought out a 4 cap, to take a new Courier
action
> the next turn. Which means that first in turn 6 you'll be able to tap two
> Couriers (unless you manage to bleed in turn 5 with your Harbinger after
> recruiting 2nd Courier) and 3 Slaughterhouses. But this only works if
> everyhting works perfectly, no recruits blocked, a 4 cap !Nos in
> uncontrolled plus a Harbinger that's not a 9 cap, starting with at least 2
> transfers etc.
Well, don't put the 9 cap Harbinger in. Courier is inefficient and proabably
best left out.
> > Feline Saboteur = +4 cards
>
> For that one you need to bring out Ox, which means yet another turn unless
> you drew both Agaitas and Ox/Nigel/Christianus from start and started with
> 3/4 transfers...not likely.
Again, so what, it's no slower than any other deck. All I'm saying here is
that if your Slaughterhouses aren't enough on their own you can even start
taking actions ( I probably wouldn't bother with Courriers, Feline Sabotuer
is more efficient ) to burn even more cards making the deck even faster.
James Coupe
<tvi...@cc.helsinki.fi> writes:
>The moment I saw the card I hated it's very existance in Jyhad. Either
>uniqueness or milling just one card (as in the first test versions iirc)
>would've been tolerable.
If you recall this, it is very likely you are under the effects of a
non-disclosure agreement, or whoever told you this was.
I would tread carefully.
--
James Coupe When correctly viewed
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Everything is lewd
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 I could tell you things about Peter Pan
13D7E668C3695D623D5D And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man
GreySeer
> Harbingers are that fearsome... ;-)
I'm really looking forward to building a FoS/Baali deck ( working on it
now ), the Baali work well with the FoS not only to give them good
blocking/combat minions but to also enhance the effects of other Settite
cards. Look for a post from me for some spoilers for those interested in
Baali + FoS deck.
GreySeer
> effect.
> Potchli makes it a quite a bit tougher. I just don't see this ousting
> regularly when decks aren't 60 cards.
Yeah but only Carlotta and Potchli can do that, so what am I supposed to do,
put them in every crypt just in case my predator is playing a Slaughterhouse
deck.
> > > The guy that replaces from prey's library sucks, I played him, what
> > > happens is you get a card you can't play from your prey's library.
> > Which is why you use the Barrens or Fragment to get rid of them and
replace
> > from your library.
>
> I did. I had Barrens in play with him, and he still sucked. If it
> read "whenever you discard" instead of "whenever you play" it would be
> different as you could load up on discard vamps and cards (death of my
> conscience, deal with the devil, etc). Now if your prey is playing
> aus, for, or nec.....
Depends on what your Slaughterhouse deck is trying to do, he will suck to
some extent if you're also relying on your own cards to take actions but
when your only purpose ( initially ) is to drain your prey's library he's
good.
Anyway, I don't think his ability is broken, I just find it amusing and
possibly useful ( esp in combo w/ Steam Tunnels or Tiberius )
GreySeer
> > you still won't have emptied his library by the time the game is over.
> > How do you intend to oust anyone ... and how do you intend to gain more
> > than 1 VP? I don't see this as a game-winning strategy, although you
> > will certainly piss off your prey no end... but you'll also pretty much
> > set up your grandprey to sweep.
What, and your prey doesn't play any cards at all either? Most successful
decks cycle cards quickly and library destruction will only be accellerated
as you oust people since each successive prey will have fewer library cards
for you to chew through.
Derek Ray
"GreySeer" <e...@i.think.not> mumbled something about:
>> > Now that you've STARTED burning 10% of your prey's library every turn,
>> > you still won't have emptied his library by the time the game is over.
>> > How do you intend to oust anyone ... and how do you intend to gain more
>> > than 1 VP? I don't see this as a game-winning strategy, although you
>> > will certainly piss off your prey no end... but you'll also pretty much
>> > set up your grandprey to sweep.
>
>What, and your prey doesn't play any cards at all either? Most successful
Games only last an AVERAGE of 12 turns -- almost never more than 15, and
almost never less than 10. You need a PERFECT library and crypt draw to
get all this going by turn 6... so while you'll dent their library
significantly, you won't do much more than get them down close to the
bottom.
>decks cycle cards quickly and library destruction will only be accellerated
Not when they're losing some of the critical cards, they won't.
>as you oust people since each successive prey will have fewer library cards
>for you to chew through.
Correction: "if" you oust people. I'm not afraid of a
12-Slaughterhouse deck actually winning a table, myself. It'll suck to
be its prey, but I can't stop that any more than I can stop someone from
playing a 20-Brainwash deck, or stop someone from playing a Toreador
intercept/Flash/Majesty wall deck that never takes actions.
Cameron
> > and if The Slaughterhouse gets stolen, well, the Harbingers can just go and
> >burn it if they feel it's necesseary.
>
> Excellent. Another action wasted on not ousting your prey. =)
>
> I think the Slaughterhouse is best used by putting 3 or so in a deck and
> just playing them as they arrive. The nuisance factor of even one in
> play should -definitely- assist you in ousting your prey, which is
> probably a good thing considering that AUS/FOR/NEC isn't the easiest
> thing to oust someone with.
>
> And yes, someone will eventually build a Brainwash-style deck that gets
> 1VP and explodes gloriously. There really isn't much anyone can do
> about decks that aren't designed to win -- anyone can build and play
> one, and probably will. =/ The Slaughterhouse doesn't make it any
> easier or harder, it just gives "that kind" another option.
I've gotta disagree. With the discipline combo of AUS/FOR/(NEC) you
can make a perfectly respectable wall deck with great late game
abilities. You only need a Table win too, so:
Card denial to cut the prey off at the knees. They can't get a VP and
slowly wither away, (~15-25 cards).
Meanwhile the rest of the deck is Forced Awakening/WWeF and
intercrept/bounce and prevent. This minimizes the damage done to you
by your pred, and helps you to kill your prey. Your original pred
gets no VP, and you should be able to set up enough to stimey your
next one too. (~40-55 cards, emphisis on bounce)
Lifegain and perma-bleed: 20 cards Blood dolls, restorations, pulses.
couple of dawn opps. Life gain to pay for those SHouses, and
restorations to pay for that yummy AUS bounce. Pulses for bleeding,
your prey can't block everything that's flying at them, not to mention
that you have the fun Harbringer special abitities too.
Season to taste with Freak Drive and meta-game cards.
Cameron, a very worried person
PS: Loved the Kiasyd, Salubri and their anti's, and think the
Arhimines will be a riot. Also liked how good my PTO's are.
Ben Peal
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > While I'm also concerned about The Slaughterhouse, I think this
> > assessment is very inaccurate. It'll take more than a couple of
> > turns to get through a 90-card deck. Playing one Slaughterhouse
> > every turn, it takes at least eight turns to get through 54 cards
> > (not including Egotha or Agaitas), and it costs you eight pool.
> > Oh, and that's eight turns and 8 pool without pool gain masters,
> > which means you've spent 13 blood on Agaitas and Egotha, and 8 pool
> > on Slaughterhouses, putting you at 9 pool, and you haven't removed
> > a drop of pool from your prey in 8 turns. Giving your prey an
> > eight-turn headstart is not a recipe for success.
>
> Assuming the Slaughterhouse deck isn't doing anything to get more MPAs. 2
> MPAs will make it work around 50% faster.
There's actually a flaw in my own example. I forgot to include the
time it would take to transfer out a Harbinger of Skulls, and my math
on the Slaughterhouses was off by two cards. So, assume for a moment that
you don't play Info Highway or Zillah's Valley, and assume that you don't
play the Parthenon or other source of additional master phase actions:
It takes you two turns to transfer out a Harbinger of Skulls (minimum
capacity of 6). It then takes 6 turns of playing a Slaughterhouse
every turn for 6 turns, followed by 3 more turns in order to get through
78 cards (2+4+6+8+10+12+12+12+12). Assuming you've played Egotha, you've
burned 9 more cards via his ability for a total of 87, minus their initial
draw of 7. That's 11 turns to get through (almost all of) their deck,
assuming they don't play any cards, and you've spent 13 pool in the process.
In an optimal environment, you play the Parthenon and Info Highway on
turn one, then bring out Agaitas. On each subsequent turn for 4 turns,
you play two Slaughterhouses, and play another Slaughterhouse on the
turn after those eight. After a total of 7 turns, you've gone through
all of your opponent's cards (including their initial draw) at a cost of
17 pool (2 for the Parthenon, 6 for Agaitas, and 9 for Slaughterhouses).
The total is 4+8+12+16+18+18, plus the 9 cards burned via Agaitas's
ability by playing 9 Slaughterhouses, plus the initial draw.
Now, this is also assuming that your prey isn't playing any cards himself.
It's also assuming that you've managed to draw into enough Slaughterhouses
to be able to play them at a rate of either one or two per turn, depending
on which example you're using.
This is also quite the contrived environment...
- Ben Peal, Prince of Boston
fu...@mindstorm.com
Pepijn
> I've gotta disagree. With the discipline combo of AUS/FOR/(NEC) you
> can make a perfectly respectable wall deck with great late game
> abilities. You only need a Table win too, so:
Hmm fortitude and necromancy... Hmmm... well.. action (whatever) force
of will + daring the dawn. freak drive and leave torpor... or if
burned (even better) use deamonic possesion and start all over
again... Guess that'll hurt... admitted... if you want to fit it all
in one deck, deck size is an issue... and this is depending on a lot
of cards... but the options are there... pulse of the caineille is a
definite option...
Ousting with these disciplines isn't hard I guess. As allready said,
the denial is not requiring actions.
Just play SH as masters, have your vamps use there abilities, and
build a deck based on auspex and fortitude, add some necromancy
flavour, and I think you have a killer deck (maybe even add a nagaraja
(can't recall the name, the one that increases hand size). If bold
even add Leandro and Jan Pieterszoon, and you have your complete
resource destruction, with out really needing to sacrifice a lot of
card slots (may be just 6 masters for SH's).
Resource destruction is not there to win, but to hinder your prey to
get into his game.
Petri Wessman
judgement until I get to play with it myself (and try to do
degenerative things ;). It *is* nasty, but running people out of cards
does not win you the game and it takes both time and pool. There are
lots of cards in this game that have seemed totally broken at first
glance, but which aren't that bad in practice. Slaughterhouse may be
one of those - or it may be broken beyond belief. We'll have to wait
and see.
Unlike some people, I don't find the "Millstone" concept at all bad
for this game. Cards are less of a critical resource in this game (the
card flow is fast, and decks are big) as compared to other games, and
while running someone totally out of cards hurts them a lot, that's
only one player out of many.
This may push the metagame a bit more towards permanents (equipment,
allies, retainers), which is not bad at all IMHO.
//Petri
The Nosferatu Stuff
news:a1e26d99.01120...@posting.google.com...
If this is how a meat factory deck is going to be..then cool. Its got it's
defense against big bleed. But voting(which I expect it to have none of)
will wreck it. FOS enticment/nights moves will destroy it. Alternate
damage decks(smiling jack, anarch revolt, army of rats) will hurt them.
Dedicated combat will own them. I can see this kind of deck causing great
unhappiness for a combat deck prey, since they are most likely to go through
alot of cards quickly. But I cant imagine if my predator goes: first turn
info highway, bring out 6 cap har...I bring out uriah winter.(whats up
noal!) Your turn, parth+SH you do nothing. My turn, potence master on
uriah, bum rush, Immortal grapple, torn signpost, increased strength Pushing
the limit. Oops, there went your minion. That 1 meat factory better carry
your game, cause that is all you are going to get.
--
Aaron
The Nosferatu Stuff
Sten During
Tetragrammaton wrote:
You replace from your preys library and draw the additional card from
your own. After that
you discard any card one (guess where it came from...), play next
combat-card for the same
effect.
Sten During
Flux
> "Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:a1e26d99.01120...@posting.google.com...
> > slowly wither away, (~15-25 cards).
> >
> > Meanwhile the rest of the deck is Forced Awakening/WWeF and
> > intercrept/bounce and prevent. This minimizes the damage done to you
> > by your pred, and helps you to kill your prey. Your original pred
> > gets no VP, and you should be able to set up enough to stimey your
> > next one too. (~40-55 cards, emphisis on bounce)
> >
> > Lifegain and perma-bleed: 20 cards Blood dolls, restorations, pulses.
> > couple of dawn opps. Life gain to pay for those SHouses, and
> > restorations to pay for that yummy AUS bounce. Pulses for bleeding,
> > your prey can't block everything that's flying at them, not to mention
> > that you have the fun Harbringer special abitities too.
> >
> > Season to taste with Freak Drive and meta-game cards.
>
> If this is how a meat factory deck is going to be..then cool. Its got it's
> defense against big bleed. But voting(which I expect it to have none of)
> will wreck it.
Wrong. They have AUS, they can intercept the voters.
> FOS enticment/nights moves will destroy it. Alternate
> damage decks(smiling jack, anarch revolt, army of rats) will hurt them.
Yes, though no harder than it hurts almost any other deck.
> Dedicated combat will own them.
They do have FOR.
> I can see this kind of deck causing great
> unhappiness for a combat deck prey, since they are most likely to go through
> alot of cards quickly. But I cant imagine if my predator goes: first turn
> info highway, bring out 6 cap har...I bring out uriah winter.(whats up
> noal!) Your turn, parth+SH you do nothing. My turn, potence master on
> uriah, bum rush, Immortal grapple, torn signpost, increased strength Pushing
> the limit. Oops, there went your minion. That 1 meat factory better carry
> your game, cause that is all you are going to get.
Skin of Steel. Try again.
Flux
Sorrow
> capacity of 6).
Except you don't have to transfer out even 1 HoS.
Just use Clan Impersonation.
Sorrow
---
"Happiness sucks" -me
Sorrow
> so figure this doesn't really ramp up until turn 6 in a game that
> normally lasts 12 turns.
You don't need a Harbinger. Just CI.
> I believe this is the real "hidden" weakness of the Slaughterhouse --
> emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him,
No, it doesn't. However, using the Slaughterhouse can be a collateral
strategy to whatever it is you are using to oust your prey. Bleeding?
If you have a bunch of Slaughterhouses out and going every turn,
you could very well be eating through their Deflections. Voting? You
might be eating through their Intercept. Rushing? You might be
eating through their S:CE or Maneuvers.
Using the Slautherhouse won't be part of your primary strategy to
oust your prey. It shouldn't be because, as you say, that will get you
nowhere. However, if you use it as a secondary strategy to deny
your prey the cards they need to either oust their prey or to defend
against you, you are making your position better indeed.
So, no. I don't see any "real 'hidden' weakness" in the Slaughter-
house.
Sorrow
---
"This is my costume.
I'm a homicidal maniac. They look just like everyone else."
-- Wednesday Addams
Gomi no Sensei
>> It takes you two turns to transfer out a Harbinger of Skulls (minimum
>> capacity of 6).
>
>Except you don't have to transfer out even 1 HoS.
>Just use Clan Impersonation.
Which also takes two turns:
Transfer out Agaitas Transfer out Dollface
-------------------- ---------------------
Turn 1: 4 transfers Turn 1: 3 transfers, Dollface comes out
Turn 2: 2 transfers, Agaitas Turn 2: Dollface Clan Impersonates to HoS
comes out
Turn 3: Play Slaughterhouse Turn 3: Play Slaughterhouse
No speed advantage there.
gomi
--
Blood, guts, guns, cuts
Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts
Derek Ray
"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> mumbled something about:
>> It takes you two turns to transfer out a Harbinger of Skulls (minimum
>> capacity of 6).
>
>Except you don't have to transfer out even 1 HoS.
>Just use Clan Impersonation.
To get a Clan Impersonation in the top ten cards of your deck:
nc( 6,90,10) = 0.517 (or 52%)
nc( 8,90,10) = 0.626 (63%)
nc(10,90,10) = 0.712 (71%)
nc(12,90,10) = 0.78 (78%)
nc(15,90,10) = 0.855 (86%)
To have any sort of realistic chance, you'll be needing at least 12. I
personally prefer to simply include 4 Harbingers in my crypt:
nc(4,12,4) = 0.859 (86%)
...and simply transfer one of them out.
Sorrow
> >Just use Clan Impersonation.
> Which also takes two turns:
> Transfer out Agaitas Transfer out Dollface
> -------------------- ---------------------
> Turn 1: 4 transfers Turn 1: 3 transfers, Dollface comes out
> Turn 2: 2 transfers, Agaitas Turn 2: Dollface Clan Impersonates to HoS
> comes out
> Turn 3: Play Slaughterhouse Turn 3: Play Slaughterhouse
> No speed advantage there.
True, but there is a pool advantage. Also, with CI, you can make
Slaughterhouse conform to your deck. You are playing discplines
that the HoS don't have? So? You don't have to waste the pool
on a vamp that you aren't even really going to use. And by doing
this, you can make effective use of Slaughterhouse as a collateral
strategy to the one you already plan on using to oust your prey.
Sorrow
---
If you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made
your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you
from the earth.
Curevei
>> emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him,
>
>No, it doesn't. However, using the Slaughterhouse can be a collateral
>strategy to whatever it is you are using to oust your prey. Bleeding?
>If you have a bunch of Slaughterhouses out and going every turn,
>you could very well be eating through their Deflections. Voting? You
>might be eating through their Intercept. Rushing? You might be
>eating through their S:CE or Maneuvers.
>Using the Slautherhouse won't be part of your primary strategy to
>oust your prey. It shouldn't be because, as you say, that will get you
>nowhere. However, if you use it as a secondary strategy to deny
>your prey the cards they need to either oust their prey or to defend
>against you, you are making your position better indeed.
>So, no. I don't see any "real 'hidden' weakness" in the Slaughter-
>house.
Opportunity cost. Every card has a minimum cost of itself. Could have put a
different card in your deck, could have drawn a different card. Though, if the
issue is "hidden", OC shouldn't be considered hidden.
Milling cards has no effect unless it causes the player to play differently or
you run the player out of cards. So, you are sacrificing some of your
potential resources in the hope of causing one of those to occur.
"He's a ... he's a reverse vampire. They ... they crave the Sun."
Derek Ray
>> 3 master phases and 3 extra pool, AFTER getting out the first Harbinger,
>> so figure this doesn't really ramp up until turn 6 in a game that
>> normally lasts 12 turns.
>
>You don't need a Harbinger. Just CI.
See above. CI is NOT as reliable as all that -- while you might not
need to draw it until the mid-game, what if you get your SH early on and
your CI late? Ouch.
>> I believe this is the real "hidden" weakness of the Slaughterhouse --
>> emptying your prey's library doesn't help you oust him,
>
>No, it doesn't. However, using the Slaughterhouse can be a collateral
>strategy to whatever it is you are using to oust your prey. Bleeding?
>If you have a bunch of Slaughterhouses out and going every turn,
>you could very well be eating through their Deflections. Voting? You
>might be eating through their Intercept. Rushing? You might be
>eating through their S:CE or Maneuvers.
Or you might be eating through all their crud cards. There's an upside
and downside to it -- as Curverei has pointed out, milling just for the
sake of milling isn't technically going to actually help you UNTIL they
run out of cards. That'll be a long way off.
However, there are other ways you can REALLY make use of it. Milling
with knowledge is entirely different, and once you begin putting a
carefully-judged thumb on the odds, you can damage someone's deck beyond
repair. This is why Courier is so powerful -- it lets you CHECK what
you're hosing before you hose it.
I already have two decks under design to make DELIBERATE use of the
Slaughterhouse. =) I'll leave it up to y'all to find the cards that
are completely appropriate for use with it...
>So, no. I don't see any "real 'hidden' weakness" in the Slaughter-
>house.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not a good card. But I think
that just lobbing a few in your deck plus a Harbinger or CI, and pinging
away randomly at someone's library is not going to be very effective at
all. Hence "weakness".
Curevei
>that just lobbing a few in your deck plus a Harbinger or CI, and pinging
>away randomly at someone's library is not going to be very effective at
>all. Hence "weakness".
First B constructed game, had a The Slaughterhouse deck as my predator. Cut to
the chase, I ended up with 2 VPs, one from withdrawing, and it ended up with 0.
Filling in the details, he put out Egothha first, then followed with 3 quick
TSs. What he didn't do was affect me in any other way the whole game. Maybe
if he had more focus on ousting or drew a Pulse sooner, it might have made a
difference; the deck was all over the place. Also, he drew into too many TSs,
though none were SRed, and you really want to make sure you get some early; he
was playing 9.
Also, my deck had a fair number of permanents. I was playing Ahrimanes with
more Murders of Crows than I've probably ever put into a deck before. BTW,
random observation from that game, Derange appears to really hose Blood
Brothers.
So, so far, a TS deck has done what I expect - encourage its prey to withdraw
and little else, yet it's not clear as to whether that was just because of
early deck design, match ups, or what. Still argue that encouraging players to
withdraw doesn't make games more fun.
X_Zealot
> So, so far, a TS deck has done what I expect - encourage its prey to
withdraw
> and little else, yet it's not clear as to whether that was just because of
> early deck design, match ups, or what. Still argue that encouraging
players to
> withdraw doesn't make games more fun.
I hope you mean SH rather than TS because I have always equated TS to Torn
Signpost and SH to Slaughter House