Vidal Jarbeaux
wedge
anarch) requirement to play any card. He can meet a given requirement
only once each game. +1 bleed.
Does this only apply to minion cards?
librarian
Why would you expect that? Seems like it applies to any cards (text).
best -
chris
Kevin M.
What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
wedge
> What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
Master cards
Kevin M.
>> What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
>
> Master cards
Using the Kemintiri^ precedent, the vampire doesn't play Master
cards, the Methuselah does.
witness1
> wedge wrote:
> >> What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
>
> > Master cards
>
> Using the Kemintiri^ precedent, the vampire doesn't play Master
> cards, the Methuselah does.
Vidal can be used to meet the appropriate kinds of requirements of any
cards.
"Vidal can meet the clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait (e.g.,
anarch) requirement to play *any* card."
Kemintiri can play cards as if she meets the appropriate requirements.
"*She [Kemintiri] can play* minion cards that require Camarilla,
Ventrue, and/or a justicar title as if she met that/those requirement
(s)."
-witness1
brandonsantacruz
> > What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
>
> Master cards
Why don't you name a deck archtype and we'll see what he can be made
to do? It will be an interesting experiment if nothing else.
Brandon
wedge
wrote:
Deck Name: Vidals
Created By: Wedge
Description: For your amusement. It seems obvious that it should only
be 60. What should be cut? Lets assume only 30 thirty cards and not
all 90.
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 7, Max: 32, Avg: 5)
------------------------------------------
6 Vidal Jarbeaux aus cel obf pot PRE8 Toreador
1 Denette Stensen obf 2 Gangrel
Antitribu
1 Bloodfeud obf 2 Malkavian
Antitribu
1 Old Neddacka obf 2 Nosferatu
Antitribu
1 Alu obf 2 Assamite
1 Lubomira Hradok OBF 3 Nosferatu
Antitribu
1 Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (55 cards)
1 Demonstration
1 Ferraille
1 Ventrue Headquarters
1 City Gangrel Connections
1 Tabriz Assembly
4 Waste Management Operation
9 Ashur Tablets
1 Carver`s Meat Packing and Storage
1 Creepshow Casino
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Garibaldi-Meucci Museum
1 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1 Last Stand
6 Liquidation
1 Monastery of Shadows
9 Obfuscate
6 Parthenon, The
1 Pentex Subversion
1 Seattle Committee
1 Specialization
1 Sunset Strip, Hollywood
1 Shock Troops
1 Temptation of Greater Power
1 Therbold Realty
1 Giant`s Blood
1 Infernal Pact (for temporis)
Action (6 cards)
1 Sibyl`s Tongue
1 Fee Stake: Boston
1 Concert Tour
3 Clotho`s Gift
Action Modifier (16 cards)
1 Strange Day
2 Cloak the Gathering
2 Domain of Evernight
2 Elder Impersonation
2 Faceless Night
2 Forgotten Labyrinth
2 Lost in Crowds
2 Spying Mission
1 Veil the Legions
Political Action (6 cards)
1 Revolutionary Council
2 Rumors of Gehenna
1 Parity Shift
1 Patsy
1 Toreador Justicar
Equipment (2 cards)
1 Writ of Acceptance ( gains writ after Baron title) fee stake
can't be targeted?
1 Shilmulo Tarot (less likely to contest than the Heart of N')
Event (3 cards)
3 Anthelios, the Red Star
Combo (2 cards)
2 Swallowed by the Night
other cards of interest? Isurance Scam(2 anarchs a turn though Seattle
Committee/Anthelios)? Secure Haven?
X protean skill cards/homoculi + Enkil Cog for out of turn RevCo?
Scalpel Tongue?
Matt
floppyzedolfin
I'm not sure about that, but, in English grammar (which isn't, I
agree, V:tES grammar), doesn't the "A can [do something] to [do
magic]" construction mean "if A [does something], then A [does
magic]" (and not 'if A [does something], then B [does magic]")
I read Vidal's cardtext as Kemintiri's. Vidal can meet the requirement
to play a card means he is the one to play the card, right? I think
Vidal doesn't allow the Methuselah controlling him to play cards
without meeting the requirement.
LSJ
If his controller wants to play a card that requires <blah>, "Vidal can meet the
... requirement to play [that] card."
Ruben Feldman
It is my understanding that he can only use the ability once per game,
so you would get stuck with most of those clan cards.
Even if it were possible, no offense but that deck is awful.
Ruben Feldman
librarian
Clearly Target:Vitals, just so you can name the deck Vidal's Vitals.
best -
chris
LSJ
> wedge wrote:
>> other cards of interest?
>>
> Clearly Target:Vitals, just so you can name the deck Vidal's Vitals.
Then you'll want some Ivory Bows and Canopic Jars (or Jar the Souls), too.
John Flournoy
> On Oct 14, 9:32 pm, witness1 <jwnewqu...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 14, 3:09 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>
> > > wedge wrote:
> > > >> What other cards are you suggesting you might use with him?
>
> > > > Master cards
>
> > > Using the Kemintiri^ precedent, the vampire doesn't play Master
> > > cards, the Methuselah does.
>
> > Vidal can be used to meet the appropriate kinds of requirements of any
> > cards.
>
> > "Vidal can meet the clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait (e.g.,
> > anarch) requirement to play *any* card."
>
> > Kemintiri can play cards as if she meets the appropriate requirements.
>
> > "*She [Kemintiri] can play* minion cards that require Camarilla,
> > Ventrue, and/or a justicar title as if she met that/those requirement
> > (s)."
>
> > -witness1
>
> I'm not sure about that, but, in English grammar (which isn't, I
> agree, V:tES grammar), doesn't the "A can [do something] to [do
> magic]" construction mean "if A [does something], then A [does
> magic]" (and not 'if A [does something], then B [does magic]")
The grammar of "can [do something] to [perform something else]"
generally requires that the [do something] is an actual action, like
'can [tap] to [burninate]' or 'can [burn a blood] to [untap your
pants]'.
In this case, it's "Vidal [can do something]", where the 'can do
something' is 'meet the requirements to play cards'.
So his special does let you play master cards that would require a
trait Vidal can mimic, as LSJ noted.
-John Flournoy
echia...@yahoo.com
> >> "*She [Kemintiri] can play* minion cards that require Camarilla,
> >> Ventrue, and/or a justicar title as if she met that/those requirement
> >> (s)."
>
> >> -witness1
>
> > I'm not sure about that, but, in English grammar (which isn't, I
> > agree, V:tES grammar), doesn't the "A can [do something] to [do
> > magic]" construction mean "if A [does something], then A [does
> > magic]" (and not 'if A [does something], then B [does magic]")
>
> > I read Vidal's cardtext as Kemintiri's. Vidal can meet the requirement
> > to play a card means he is the one to play the card, right? I think
> > Vidal doesn't allow the Methuselah controlling him to play cards
> > without meeting the requirement.
>
> If his controller wants to play a card that requires <blah>, "Vidal can meet the
> ... requirement to play [that] card."
Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording. Maybe
she'll get reprinted one day with a slight change in wording so she
better templates everyone else. Or maybe one day there will be more
minion cards that require Ventrue, besides Elder Kindred Network,
Political Ally, and the banned High Stakes.
Speaking of Vidal, can his special be used to simulate the "Gehenna"
trait so that you meet the requirement to play a Gehenna event like
Absimiliard's Army or a master card like Watchtower: The Wolves Feed
(assuming you have a Seraph and only need to meet the Gehenna
requirement)?
AFAIK, the rules do not prohibit non-event cards from having the
Gehenna trait. And in fact, all of the cards with such requirements
only specify "Gehenna card in play" not "Gehenna event in play." So
could Vidal truly represent Gehenna? :-P
LSJ
> Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording.
Or her wording fits.
> Speaking of Vidal, can his special be used to simulate the "Gehenna"
> trait so that you meet the requirement to play a Gehenna event like
> Absimiliard's Army or a master card like Watchtower: The Wolves Feed
> (assuming you have a Seraph and only need to meet the Gehenna
> requirement)?
No. Card text. "vampire trait"
echia...@yahoo.com
But is there anything in the rules that says Gehenna is a non-vampire
trait (besides the fact that there are currently no vampires with the
Gehenna trait)?
For example, Vidal's ability lets him simulate the Red List trait,
which is considered a vampire trait. Yet Red List is not restricted to
just vampires since Ossian is Red List yet he is not a vampire.
Similarly, Samuel Haight, Public Enemy, Red List, and Trumped-Up
Charges all indicate that Red List is not limited to just vampires.
The same thing could be said for Flight (which Herald of Topheth and
Impundulu have).
So in those cases, Red List and Flight are apparently vampire traits,
even though it is possessed by non-vampires.
Couldn't Gehenna be a vampire trait and it just so happens that a
bunch of non-vampire cards happen to also have the trait?
This train of logic might sound silly (and it was initially started
facetiously), but now that I think about it, it could actually have
some ramifications like in the case of Government or Inconnu.
Logically, one could imagine allies or vampires with the Government
trait. And for a long time, people have speculated about having a
future Inconnu set. But if Gehenna has been reserved for Events only,
then it seems like the same could be said for Inconnu (due to Inconnu
Tutelage, Narrow Minds, and Urban Jungle). So if there ever is an
Inconnu-type set (treating it as a separate sect or like a trait as
with Black Hand), it would have to be called something completely
different because the "Inconnu" trait is already reserved for non-
vampires. Hmmm.....
wedge
> Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording. Maybe
> she'll get reprinted one day with a slight change in wording so she
> better templates everyone else. Or maybe one day there will be more
> minion cards that require Ventrue, besides Elder Kindred Network,
> Political Ally, and the banned High Stakes.
Keminitiri can play Parity Shift and Alastor, Enough said.
bwross
> echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording.
>
> Or her wording fits.
True enough. Kemintiri isn't the sort of vampire you can be "hands
on" with, she's very deceptive and very dangerous (Eternal Mask is her
signature work, using it to take over Ventrue justicars[*] and use the
Camarilla for her own ends is her MO). You really can't expect to get
her to do "master card" level things for you, as you need to be subtle
and avoid letting her know you're using her as a pawn.
Brent Ross
[*] She did it at least once, which resulted in the creation of the
Red List (with her at the top). Lucinde was sent after her, but never
made any real progress (whereas she was effective at hunting others on
the Red List... the gloves she's wearing are to cover the mark on the
back of her hand that successful Alastors are given)... but she did
rise to Ventrue justicar. This could imply that Kemintiri might have
Eternal Masked to Lucinde and taken the Ventrue justicar title a
second time.
Kevin M.
> echia...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording.
>
> Or her wording fits.
NIT: When this originally came up last, it seemed as though
your reaction was one of suprise. Perhaps I was reading into it.
LSJ
> On Oct 15, 9:55 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> echiang...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Poor Keminitiri. She really got screwed over due to bad wording.
>> Or her wording fits.
>>
>>> Speaking of Vidal, can his special be used to simulate the "Gehenna"
>>> trait so that you meet the requirement to play a Gehenna event like
>>> Absimiliard's Army or a master card like Watchtower: The Wolves Feed
>>> (assuming you have a Seraph and only need to meet the Gehenna
>>> requirement)?
>> No. Card text. "vampire trait"
>
> But is there anything in the rules that says Gehenna is a non-vampire
> trait (besides the fact that there are currently no vampires with the
> Gehenna trait)?
The card describing the requirement usually suffices.
> For example, Vidal's ability lets him simulate the Red List trait,
> which is considered a vampire trait. Yet Red List is not restricted to
> just vampires since Ossian is Red List yet he is not a vampire.
Correct. Card text is not "vampire-only trait".
> Similarly, Samuel Haight, Public Enemy, Red List, and Trumped-Up
> Charges all indicate that Red List is not limited to just vampires.
Correct. Card text.
> The same thing could be said for Flight (which Herald of Topheth and
> Impundulu have).
Correct.
> So in those cases, Red List and Flight are apparently vampire traits,
> even though it is possessed by non-vampires.
Correct, just like "costs 1 pool" is an ally trait.
> Couldn't Gehenna be a vampire trait and it just so happens that a
> bunch of non-vampire cards happen to also have the trait?
Depends on the card requiring it to say, I guess.
bwross
I'm guessing that being a Gehenna *card* is not a vampire trait, it's
just a card trait. Vidal would be able to meet a card condition that
required a Gehenna *vampire*. Vampire traits being an exclusive club
here (so even though Vidal is a card, he can only match with things
asking for vampires).
Brent Ross
echia...@yahoo.com
Yeah, I thought about this. But then when you look at the older Flight
cards, they state: "Requires a ready minion with Flight." Similarly,
Rebirth says: "Requires a Red List minion" (though this argument is
weaker since only vampires can commit diablerie).
It doesn't say "ready vampire with Flight" or "ready Red List
vampire." So these cards aren't asking for vampires (it's asking for
minions).
bwross
wrote:
> Yeah, I thought about this. But then when you look at the older Flight
> cards, they state: "Requires a ready minion with Flight."
There's only one card that does that with the current official texts:
Circle. It's simply redundant and inconsistent with the other cards,
the official text sould probably remove that line and add a [FLIGHT]
in front of the text. Although it might not be necessary, because
Vidal could be said to match the trait of Flight as required by the
symbol on the sidebar... then he'd have it for the bold text as well
(and he certainly counts as a minion).
> Similarly,
> Rebirth says: "Requires a Red List minion" (though this argument is weaker since only vampires can commit diablerie).
Again, it's a single card... also note that in addition to only
vampires being able to commit diablerie, the text of the card makes it
clear that it has to be a vampire ("No blood hunt may be called, and
this *vampire* untaps" and not "No blood hunt may be called. Untap
this minion if it is a vampire"). It was probably an accidental over-
reach to make the requirement line read "minion", because everything
else about the card is only vampire.
So there's two cards, both of which have some issues with text that
maybe should have a tiny update to their official text to better
represent what everybody already understands they do (ie it wouldn't
cause any confusion to newbies that the printed cards are different
here).
Brent Ross