Spoiler Discussions *CONTAINS SPOILER TEXT*
librarian
!Salubri, G4, cap 8
AUS FOR VAL ani obe
Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
minion plays
with an open hand.
Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
with Sennadurek.
Hide the Heart
Reaction, aus/val, no cost
[aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
[val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
may burn 1
blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
Heart may
be played ay [val] each action.
[VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
against any Methuselah by 2.
Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
staple in !salubri wall decks.
Death Seeker
Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
played (no
cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
round.
This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
deck, G4 most likely.
Baroque
Samedi, G5, cap 7
NEC THA aus for obf
Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
who is
not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
The Not Gio/Nos clause makes this vamp *slightly*
underpowered. Take that away, and I'm thiking he's pretty
decent. Of course, he gets to fight with NEC and THN
(assuming it's THN, not THA).
Off Kilter
Action, Samedi, no cost
+1 stealth action
Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
Otherwise,
you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
Under my Skin
Action Modifier, obf/thn, 1 blood
[obf] +1 stealth
[thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any
action
after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1
stealth.
[THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
Liking it. Not that G2 Samedi needed stealth. The 1 cost
is a challenge.
Isanwayen
Kiasyd, G4, cap 6
DOM MYT OBT
Sabbat: While ready Isanwayen may tap to give you an
additional master
phase action. Recuing him from torpor costs an additional
blood. Cold
iron vulnerability.
Hmm, seems pretty balanced. Extra MPA, but taps him/it/her.
All in clans at SUP. G4 - that's good.
Wider View
Master, no requirements, 1 pool
Master: Trifle
Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
top card
from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
a crypt
card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
turn. It's very nice however even so.
Tinglestripe
Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
Weapon.
[myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
only once
each round.
[MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
maneuver each
combat.
I like the card name. I'm not sure I would play it however.
Rusticus
Gargoyle, G5, cap 4
VIS for
Camarilla. Tremere Slave: Flight.
Ok, decent soldier.
Voices of the Castle
Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
[tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
[vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
this
vampire is enslaved.
[VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
Yes, this is good. Although sensing some ability bleed here.
Intercept for Thau?
Lead Fist
Combat, tha/vis, no cost
[tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[vis] As [tha] above, an once this round this vampire can
burn a blood
to get a press, only usable to continue combat.
[VIS] As [vis] above, but at +2 damage.
Because Tupdogs weren't strong enough...
What's your opinion of the new cards?
best -
chris
love the availability of Villeins. I'll have 16 more after
I open my box of starters. Yay.
Peter D Bakija
> Off Kilter
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
The next Off Kilter? This card strikes me as totally solid with, ya
know, Freak Drive and stealth. Go bleed at stealth. Get the edge.
Freak. Off Kilter to gain 2 pool. Repeat. I mean, like, ok, not as
effective as, well, Kindred Spirits, but still seems reasonable.
> Lead Fist
> Combat, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [vis] As [tha] above, an once this round this vampire can
> burn a blood
> to get a press, only usable to continue combat.
> [VIS] As [vis] above, but at +2 damage.
>
> Because Tupdogs weren't strong enough...
Well, really, what is this gonna do that Torn Signpost/Immortal
Grapple wasn't? Is this going to replace either of those? I mean, I'm
not saying this is a bad card, but I don't think it is going to make
Tupdogs any scarier.
-Peter
XZealot
> Uriel
> !Salubri, G4, cap 8
> AUS FOR VAL ani obe
> Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
> minion plays
> with an open hand.
>
> Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
> with Sennadurek.
Bingo! Inferior obe actually makes including a bunch of Agent of
Power in the deck totally worth it. Oh, did I mention that he
completely pairs up with Saulot with the exception of dai/THA, but who
needs those nearly unusable disciplines. :)
> Hide the Heart
> Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> may burn 1
> blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> Heart may
> be played ay [val] each action.
> [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> against any Methuselah by 2.
>
> Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> staple in !salubri wall decks.
Should be called "Hide the Heart that I JUST CUT OUT OF YOUR STILL
BLEEDING CORPSE AFTER I PERFORMED SEVERAL UNMENTIONABLES TO IT THAT
CAN BE FOUND IN THE KAMA SUTRA", or D.I. for Valeren.
one or the other
> Death Seeker
> Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
> Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
> played (no
> cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
> round.
>
> This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
> deck, G4 most likely.
This card combined with Powerbase Tshwane pretty much say "melee
weapon combat is the shizzow" <insert glowing red poker>
> Baroque
> Samedi, G5, cap 7
> NEC THA aus for obf
> Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
> who is
> not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
Bolt on some skill cards (i.e fortitude and something else) and you
have the making of a pretty decent multirush vampire.
> The Not Gio/Nos clause makes this vamp *slightly*
> underpowered. Take that away, and I'm thiking he's pretty
> decent. Of course, he gets to fight with NEC and THN
> (assuming it's THN, not THA).
>
> Off Kilter
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
I am thinking this is the Art Scam module of Samedi Breed deck.
What can the the edge be used for....hmm maybe the second sentance of
this card to gain an EXTRA POOL!!!
> Under my Skin
> Action Modifier, obf/thn, 1 blood
> [obf] +1 stealth
> [thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any
> action
> after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1
> stealth.
> [THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
>
> Liking it. Not that G2 Samedi needed stealth. The 1 cost
> is a challenge.
It's totally good. How about perfectionist or anyone of a lot of
other ways to get blood. Permastealth is strong!
> Isanwayen
> Kiasyd, G4, cap 6
> DOM MYT OBT
> Sabbat: While ready Isanwayen may tap to give you an
> additional master
> phase action. Recuing him from torpor costs an additional
> blood. Cold
> iron vulnerability.
>
> Hmm, seems pretty balanced. Extra MPA, but taps him/it/her.
> All in clans at SUP. G4 - that's good.
Especially if you can figure out how to untap him, like say with a
Rutor's Hand or some other untappy stuff.
> Wider View
> Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> Master: Trifle
> Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> top card
> from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> a crypt
> card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> turn. It's very nice however even so.
It's totally solid, see Ascendance.
> Tinglestripe
> Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> Weapon.
> [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> only once
> each round.
> [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> maneuver each
> combat.
>
> I like the card name. I'm not sure I would play it however.
I am seeing weenie celerity with Agent of Power to get Free Desert
Eagles...err I mean Tinglestripes.
> Rusticus
> Gargoyle, G5, cap 4
> VIS for
> Camarilla. Tremere Slave: Flight.
>
> Ok, decent soldier.
Rusty Gate is awesome. Armor of Terra/Force of Will anyone?
> Voices of the Castle
> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> this
> vampire is enslaved.
> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
>
> Yes, this is good. Although sensing some ability bleed here.
> Intercept for Thau?
This is one of two cards in the game that give intercept to another
minion. It is also the only intercept reaction card that you can play
twice during the same action.
> Lead Fist
> Combat, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [vis] As [tha] above, an once this round this vampire can
> burn a blood
> to get a press, only usable to continue combat.
> [VIS] As [vis] above, but at +2 damage.
>
> Because Tupdogs weren't strong enough...
It's good, but not in a Tupdog way. at the end of the first round of
combat a Tupdog should be empty if it isn't in torpor. It seems like
a slightly worse slam. Good for putting vis on guys with tha so they
can press to the second round for the Walk of Flame.
Kevin M.
>> Voices of the Castle
>> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
>> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
>> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
>> this vampire is enslaved.
>> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
>
> minion. It is also the only intercept reaction card that you can play
> twice during the same action.
[1.6.3.6]
"A minion cannot play the same reaction card
more than once during a single action."
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
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Legendre
I think he means that the PLAYER can play it more than once, not the
Minion. That's what I took to be the reference of "you" in his
sentence. And on that reading, he's right: the blocking minion can
play it once at, say, tha, and the gargoyle can play it at vis, giving
the Tremere in question +2 intercept from 2 plays of the same card.
Ivan .
> On Feb 1, 7:51 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> > Wider View
> > Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> > Master: Trifle
> > Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> > top card
> > from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> > a crypt
> > card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> > transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> > I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> > turn. It's very nice however even so.
>
> It's totally solid, see Ascendance.
Am I totaly misinterpreting this card because I think you can use it
in every influence phase onwards to cycle crypt cards you don't need
for a cost of 1 transfer making it cycle up to 4 crypt cards in a
turn? multiple copies of something in the uncontrolled...no
problemo...BAM! new vampire comes down...still not good enough...BAM!
another one comes down, another one bites the dust.... large crypts
here I come!! this card seems interesting to me.
Ector
librarian wrote:
> Uriel
> !Salubri, G4, cap 8
> AUS FOR VAL ani obe
> Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
> minion plays
> with an open hand.
>
>
> Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
> with Sennadurek.
8-cap with one vote and nice, but not winning ability. Can see play
only for inferior Obeah - that's not easy to obtain!
>
> Hide the Heart
> Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> may burn 1
> blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> Heart may
> be played ay [val] each action.
> [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> against any Methuselah by 2.
>
>
> Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> staple in !salubri wall decks.
Weak card - just burns one blood.
>
> Death Seeker
> Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
> Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
> played (no
> cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
> round.
>
> This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
> deck, G4 most likely.
This should cost 1 blood, not 1 pool. Too expensive for a combat card,
especially for a card that needs a strong support to achieve
something.
>
> Baroque
> Samedi, G5, cap 7
> NEC THA aus for obf
> Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
> who is
> not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
>
> The Not Gio/Nos clause makes this vamp *slightly*
> underpowered. Take that away, and I'm thiking he's pretty
> decent. Of course, he gets to fight with NEC and THN
> (assuming it's THN, not THA).
Simply unplayable. Who's going to build a rush on NEC/THA/for?
>
> Under my Skin
> Action Modifier, obf/thn, 1 blood
> [obf] +1 stealth
> [thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any
> action
> after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1
> stealth.
> [THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
>
>
> Liking it. Not that G2 Samedi needed stealth. The 1 cost
> is a challenge.
This is actually very, very good, even if your Samedi has OBF. Do you
know an Obf modifier that would provide +2 stealth and then +1 stealth
for a different action?
Under My Skin will be a staple in all future Samedi decks. It allows
you to free some slots previously occupied by stealth cards.
> Wider View
> Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> Master: Trifle
> Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> top card
> from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> a crypt
> card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
>
> I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> turn. It's very nice however even so.
"Very nice" isn' enough. This is *uber-powerful* even if can be used
only once per turn. You spend only a trifle and 1 pool to optimize
your crypt draw, and when you don't need that anymore, you will gain 2
pool. Thus, you can freely put 3-4 Wider Views in every deck.
I wonder, is it a starter-only card or not?
> Tinglestripe
> Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> Weapon.
> [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> only once
> each round.
> [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> maneuver each
> combat.
>
> I like the card name. I'm not sure I would play it however.
What??? You get almost a Magnum for free and still not sure? :)
>
> Lead Fist
> Combat, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [vis] As [tha] above, an once this round this vampire can
> burn a blood
> to get a press, only usable to continue combat.
> [VIS] As [vis] above, but at +2 damage.
>
> Because Tupdogs weren't strong enough...
Weak card. You will get a press from Grapple, and you will need a
maneuver much more.
Best regards,
Ector
Vincent
> > On Feb 1, 7:51 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> > > Wider View
> > > Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> > > Master: Trifle
> > > Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> > > top card
> > > from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> > > a crypt
> > > card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> > > transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> > > I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> > > turn. It's very nice however even so.
>
> in every influence phase onwards to cycle crypt cards you don't need
> for a cost of 1 transfer making it cycle up to 4 crypt cards in a
> turn? multiple copies of something in the uncontrolled...no
> problemo...BAM! new vampire comes down...still not good enough...BAM!
> another one comes down, another one bites the dust.... large crypts
> here I come!! this card seems interesting to me.
No, you're right. It doesn't have the "during X do Y" template,
therefore you can use it as many times as you like (limited by your
transfers of course).
xcver
>
> Hide the Heart
> Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> may burn 1
> blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> Heart may
> be played ay [val] each action.
> [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> against any Methuselah by 2.
>
> Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> staple in !salubri wall decks.
The val ability doesn't strike me as that powerful, though against a
minion low on blood/life this can be enough to stop him. I like
superior however. Reducing the bleed against some other methuselah can
definitely change a game.
> Death Seeker
> Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
> Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
> played (no
> cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
> round.
>
> This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
> deck, G4 most likely.
Nice one.
>
> Off Kilter
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
Don't think this can trump the cemetary for poolgain as it is a bit
more uneffective (compare it to Art Scam for example).
>
> Under my Skin
> Action Modifier, obf/thn, 1 blood
> [obf] +1 stealth
> [thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any
> action
> after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1
> stealth.
> [THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
>
> Liking it. Not that G2 Samedi needed stealth. The 1 cost
> is a challenge.
Despite the 1 cost still strong as it essentially gives stealth to two
actions.
> Tinglestripe
> Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> Weapon.
> [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> only once
> each round.
> [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> maneuver each
> combat.
>
> I like the card name. I'm not sure I would play it however.
Seems very playable for a Kiasyd combat deck of which there aren't
many (yet). I don't think this would work in a CEL deck with Agent of
power as I would assume you need those disciplines when using it in
combat.
> Voices of the Castle
> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> this
> vampire is enslaved.
> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
>
Nice and versatile.
Satrapa
> On Feb 1, 7:51 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> > Uriel
> > !Salubri, G4, cap 8
> > AUS FOR VAL ani obe
> > Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
> > minion plays
> > with an open hand.
>
> > Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
> > with Sennadurek.
>
> Bingo! Inferior obe actually makes including a bunch of Agent of
> Power in the deck totally worth it. Oh, did I mention that he
> completely pairs up with Saulot with the exception of dai/THA, but who
> needs those nearly unusable disciplines. :)
How? You need to have Agent of Power and card you want to use at
superior. IMHO inferior obe is worth nearly nothing. I don't
understand how is he especially good with Sennadurek?
> > Isanwayen
> > Kiasyd, G4, cap 6
> > DOM MYT OBT
> > Sabbat: While ready Isanwayen may tap to give you an
> > additional master
> > phase action. Recuing him from torpor costs an additional
> > blood. Cold
> > iron vulnerability.
>
> > Hmm, seems pretty balanced. Extra MPA, but taps him/it/her.
> > All in clans at SUP. G4 - that's good.
>
> Especially if you can figure out how to untap him, like say with a
> Rutor's Hand or some other untappy stuff.
He don't have tha, he dont have for. Untaping him will be difficult,
especially in master phase. He might be good tough for masters out of
turn.
> > Wider View
> > Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> > Master: Trifle
> > Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> > top card
> > from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> > a crypt
> > card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> > transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
Someone said it is overpowered. First of all it takes time to get it
and it takes time to influence out vampire. It is strong if you are
secure. Good card imho.
Someone else said it is "welcome big crypts". How so? How does it
supports big crypts? So you can use it longer for searching your crypt
for this one wanted vampire? It is imho good especially for bloodlines
(who are limited to ~5 vampires per group) when you have your 2-3
minions on the table it is easier to look for another one if you have
pool to influence another one.
> > Tinglestripe
> > Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> > Weapon.
> > [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> > only once
> > each round.
> > [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> > maneuver each
> > combat.
>
> I am seeing weenie celerity with Agent of Power to get Free Desert
> Eagles...err I mean Tinglestripes.
>What??? You get almost a Magnum for free and still not sure? :)
First of all it isn't gun. So you will not use DBR, scatershoot or any
other nice ammo with it.
Secondly. It can be used only once each round on inferior myt, so any
other additional strikes have to be used with different weapon (of if
you would like you can "shot" for 1 and then blurr and again 1 and 2
damage. No... it isn't cool at all. I like this card but most likely
I'll never use it. Earth swords are much better option for myt combat.
LSJ
> > > Tinglestripe
> > > Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> > > Weapon.
> > > [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> > > only once
> > > each round.
> > > [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> > > maneuver each
> > > combat.
> Secondly. It can be used only once each round on inferior myt, so any
Card text above indicates only once regardless of level: "[MYT] As
above..."
Raziel
> Uriel
> !Salubri, G4, cap 8
> AUS FOR VAL ani obe
> Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
> minion plays
> with an open hand.
>
> Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
> with Sennadurek.
I don't see synergy between those two. It's quite good vampire, i want
to know what !Salubri is G5.
> Hide the Heart
> Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> may burn 1
> blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> Heart may
> be played ay [val] each action.
> [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> against any Methuselah by 2.
>
> Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> staple in !salubri wall decks.
Great against allies, otherwise only decent blood denial at inferior.
But it's bleed reduction on superior. G4-G5 VAL FOR aus !Salubri will
love this card.
> Death Seeker
> Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
> Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
> played (no
> cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
> round.
>
> This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
> deck, G4 most likely.
Not bad, but in low quantities. If it would be free it would be very
powerful.
> Baroque
> Samedi, G5, cap 7
> NEC THA aus for obf
> Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
> who is
> not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
>
> The Not Gio/Nos clause makes this vamp *slightly*
> underpowered. Take that away, and I'm thiking he's pretty
> decent. Of course, he gets to fight with NEC and THN
> (assuming it's THN, not THA).
Good vampire. 7 cap with perma rush and two superior in-clan
disciplines is not bad deal. If only Thn will get a boost.
> Off Kilter
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
Very good design, will see a lot of use in some decks. Obviously
played AFTER the bleed.
> Under my Skin
> Action Modifier, obf/thn, 1 blood
> [obf] +1 stealth
> [thn] +1 stealth and put this card on this vampire. On any
> action
> after this one, this vampire may burn this card to get +1
> stealth.
> [THN] As [thn] above, but for +2 stealth when played.
>
> Liking it. Not that G2 Samedi needed stealth. The 1 cost
> is a challenge.
Good card, will see play.
> Isanwayen
> Kiasyd, G4, cap 6
> DOM MYT OBT
> Sabbat: While ready Isanwayen may tap to give you an
> additional master
> phase action. Recuing him from torpor costs an additional
> blood. Cold
> iron vulnerability.
>
> Hmm, seems pretty balanced. Extra MPA, but taps him/it/her.
> All in clans at SUP. G4 - that's good.
Very good vampire, one of the best Kiasyds up to date. I already see
possibility to get another master phase action.
> Wider View
> Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> Master: Trifle
> Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> top card
> from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> a crypt
> card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> turn. It's very nice however even so.
Hmm, i already sense change in crypt creation. Good.
> Tinglestripe
> Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> Weapon.
> [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> only once
> each round.
> [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> maneuver each
> combat.
>
> I like the card name. I'm not sure I would play it however.
Not bad, not great either.
> Rusticus
> Gargoyle, G5, cap 4
> VIS for
> Camarilla. Tremere Slave: Flight.
>
> Ok, decent soldier.
Very good Gargoyle.
> Voices of the Castle
> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> this
> vampire is enslaved.
> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
>
> Yes, this is good. Although sensing some ability bleed here.
> Intercept for Thau?
Best bleed reduction in the game.
> Lead Fist
> Combat, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [vis] As [tha] above, an once this round this vampire can
> burn a blood
> to get a press, only usable to continue combat.
> [VIS] As [vis] above, but at +2 damage.
>
> Because Tupdogs weren't strong enough...
It does not help tupdogs, they already have POT. Why WW create cards
that make FOR VIS POT pointless ? All could be done playing VIS for.
> What's your opinion of the new cards?
>
> best -
>
> chris
>
> love the availability of Villeins. I'll have 16 more after
> I open my box of starters. Yay.
Good stuff.
Obtenebration
> > Action, Samedi, no cost
> > +1 stealth action
> > Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> > Otherwise,
> > you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> > Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> > there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
>
> Don't think this can trump the cemetary for poolgain as it is a bit
> more uneffective (compare it to Art Scam for example).
Enticement?
Peter D Bakija
> > Hide the Heart
> > Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> > [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> > [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> > may burn 1
> > blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> > Heart may
> > be played ay [val] each action.
> > [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> > against any Methuselah by 2.
>
Well, really, it reduces bleeds by 2. And if you need to cycle it
against a non bleed action, it burns one blood. If you have a bunch of
them, your predator runs out of blood very quickly, and then when they
are low on blood, their actions start failing. Seems totally
reasonable to me.
> > Baroque
> > Samedi, G5, cap 7
> > NEC THA aus for obf
> > Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
> > who is
> > not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
>
> Simply unplayable. Who's going to build a rush on NEC/THA/for?
A) The "THA" is probably actually "THN" (he is a Samedi after all).
B) The Samedi have a lot of good combat cards. Well, ok, possibly good
combat cards. Built in rush is a good way to get some mileage out of
them.
> "Very nice" isn' enough. This is *uber-powerful* even if can be used
> only once per turn. You spend only a trifle and 1 pool to optimize
> your crypt draw, and when you don't need that anymore, you will gain 2
> pool. Thus, you can freely put 3-4 Wider Views in every deck.
> I wonder, is it a starter-only card or not?
You can do it as many times per turn as you want. It isn't "during X
do Y". I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
"Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
the world or anything.
-Peter
Orange Devil
> Combat, !Salubri, costs 1 pool
> Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is
> played (no
> cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each
> round.
>
> This and the other 2 cards make me want to build a !Salubri
> deck, G4 most likely.
This card costs 1 blood, not 1 pool.
Draco Paladin
> Off Kilter
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
The first thing I thought when I saw this card was a Samedi/Serpentis
deck with Enticement. I gain pool, my prey looses it.
Enticement
Type: Action
Requires: Serpentis
Requires the Edge.
[ser] (D) Burn the Edge to cause your prey to burn 2 pool. (This
action is directed at your prey.) Your minions cannot attempt bleed
actions for the remainder of the turn.
[SER] As above, but your prey burns 3 pool.
xcver
That already was very viable with Sargon, who doesn't even need a card
to get the edge and even has Serpentis, but somehow it just doesn't
work right. Furthermore FoS and Samedi don't mix very well together :(
Obtenebration
> to get the edge and even has Serpentis, but somehow it just doesn't
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yeah, but Sargon did Sargon gain you one pool each time? Not exactly
a show stopper, but seems better than that idea.
>Furthermore FoS and Samedi don't mix very well together :(-
OBF for in some cases.
xcver
wrote:
well you would be using midcaps at least for that (no real lowcaps for
samedi) so this strategy could be a bit below those vamps :) Assuming
you don't have the edge. you can use 2 cards and 2 vamps to gain 1
pool and have your prey lose 3. Would be the same with legal
manipulations and 1 minion (though that can be delflected). Con is
that you cannot bleed after the enticement and would thus need another
Off Kilter again. But 5000 points for the more flunky deck :)
BeAst
Yup, my first thought too.
Ector
> other nice ammo with it.
> you would like you can "shot" for 1 and then blurr and again 1 and 2
> damage. No... it isn't cool at all. I like this card but most likely
> I'll never use it. Earth swords are much better option for myt combat.
nothing decent besides Swords. But Tinglestripe is very good AGAINST
combat. Just for one card you get a maneuver each combat. This can
save your S&B Kyasids, even if you will have no Combat Ends.
>Well, really, it reduces bleeds by 2. And if you need to cycle it
>against a non bleed action, it burns one blood. If you have a bunch of
>them, your predator runs out of blood very quickly, and then when they
>are low on blood, their actions start failing. Seems totally
>reasonable to me.
I will never play a bunch of bleed reduction cards, especially when my
vampires have AUS to play Telepathic Misdirection. It's just a
slightly better Telepathic Counter.
But the ability of reducing bleed against other player can be very
important. And this can even justify playing a bunch of Hide the
Hearts.
> B) The Samedi have a lot of good combat cards. Well, ok, possibly good
> combat cards. Built in rush is a good way to get some mileage out of
> them.
IMHO, "good combat cards" are cards that trump opposing combat. They
either torporize enemy vamps despite dodges and combat ends or protect
your vamp against some very dangerous enemy cards. There are no good
combat cards for THN or Samedi.
>I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
>"Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
>important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
>playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
>Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
>the world or anything.
OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
card.
Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
optimization, even for non-superstar decks? Imagine you've included
some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
draw one? Easily - play Wider View. What if you rely on Governs, but
all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
change something.
This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
Legendre
> >I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
> >"Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
> >important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
> >playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
> >Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
> >the world or anything.
>
> OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> card.
> Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> optimization, even for non-superstar decks? Imagine you've included
> some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> draw one? Easily - play Wider View. What if you rely on Governs, but
> all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
> change something.
> This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
> need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
> only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
I think I agree that this card is going to prove overpowered. It
seems like it would probably be a good master card... but as a trifle,
it's just too much.
Viking
> > Baroque
> > Samedi, G5, cap 7
> > NEC THA aus for obf
> > Independent: Baroque can enter combat with a younger vampire
> > who is
> > not Giovanni or Nosferatu as a (D) action.
>
> > The Not Gio/Nos clause makes this vamp *slightly*
> > underpowered. Take that away, and I'm thiking he's pretty
> > decent. Of course, he gets to fight with NEC and THN
> > (assuming it's THN, not THA).
>
> Good vampire. 7 cap with perma rush and two superior in-clan
> disciplines is not bad deal. If only Thn will get a boost.
THA) and two at inferior (for, obf). NEC is not a clan discipline for
the Samedi, although a few of them have it.
Raziel
Um, Samedi have four in-clan disciplines. FOR NEC OBF THN as far as i
remember.
LSJ
> Um, Samedi have four in-clan disciplines. FOR NEC OBF THN as far as i
> remember.
suoli
> OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> card.
> Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> optimization, even for non-superstar decks? Imagine you've included
> some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> draw one? Easily - play Wider View. What if you rely on Governs, but
> all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
> change something.
> This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
> need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
> only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
Staple, yes. Definitely. Uber-powerful? No way.
Viking
Oh, guess I shouldn't be surprised. Not the first time clan
disciplines in VtES differ from those in VtM.
XZealot
> XZealot wrote:
> >> Voices of the Castle
> >> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> >> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> >> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> >> this vampire is enslaved.
> >> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
>
> > This is one of two cards in the game that give intercept to another
> > minion. It is also the only intercept reaction card that you can play
> > twice during the same action.
>
> [1.6.3.6]
> "A minion cannot play the same reaction card
> more than once during a single action."
BING! BING! BING! WE HAVE A WINNER!
Much like Cloak the Gathering, Voices of the Castle may be played
twice by two separate minions, once by the gargoyle at vis and the
second time by the tre/!tre at tha. This makes it potentially one of
the best intercept cards in the game, much like Cloak the Gathering is
one of the best stealth cards in the game.
XZealot
You can only use it once per turn to move one vampire into your
uncontrolled region, but it is still quite good.
LSJ
Necromancy was one of the Samedi's clan Disciplines in VtM, too.
Izaak
>> deck with Enticement. I gain pool, my prey looses it.
>>
>> Enticement
>> Type: Action
>> Requires: Serpentis
>> Requires the Edge.
>> [ser] (D) Burn the Edge to cause your prey to burn 2 pool. (This
>> action is directed at your prey.) Your minions cannot attempt bleed
>> actions for the remainder of the turn.
>> [SER] As above, but your prey burns 3 pool.
> That already was very viable with Sargon, who doesn't even need a card
> to get the edge and even has Serpentis, but somehow it just doesn't
> work right. Furthermore FoS and Samedi don't mix very well together :(
Sargon doesn't have Serpentis. And that deck is actually quite playable
because Sargos *does* have obf and pre.
Furthermore Enticement doesn't need a setite, just serpentis and similarly
Off Kilter requires *just* Samedi. Plus the two clans share obfuscate so I
don't see how you could put together a decent obf crypt with some shared
off-clan disciplines to gain 1 pool and hurt your prey. It might be
feasible, but it depends a bit on the new Samedi crypt cards. If all else
fails you can just go with Abdelsobek (who even has nec!) and Ogwon and play
a for/obf crypt with some random serpentis thrown in.
Frederick Scott
news:96cae65e-3224-4692...@f11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
(...presumedly about Wider View and I don't know who wrote the previous
text; Dude, PLEASE include more context in your quoted text so we can
tell who's saying what about what!)
>>I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
>>"Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
>>important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
>>playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
>>Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
>>the world or anything.
>
> OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> card.
> Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> optimization, even for non-superstar decks? Imagine you've included
> some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> draw one? Easily - play Wider View. What if you rely on Governs, but
> all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
> change something.
> This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
> need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
> only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
I think what you're not taking into account is that there's no guarantee
you'll draw Wider View when it can do all these wonderful things for
you. How many will you include in your deck? At some point, such a
card takes up too much deckspace for what it's worth if your crypt
otherwise functions reasonably well. And if you don't put more than a
couple in, you often won't draw it when you really need it. It's an
awful lot like Info Highway or Zillah's Valley in that in that it would
be really powerful if you could only guarantee you could draw it in your
opening hand. But you can't. It is true that unlike IH and ZV it's
not worthless if drawn later on but you're wrong about it being "strictly
better than Ascendance". Ascendance neither requires a seed pool to
play (meaning you can't play Wider View if you have only 1 pool) nor
4 transfers to function.
Fred
Peter D Bakija
> Who tells about MYT combat? It will be ineffective anyway, as there is
> nothing decent besides Swords. But Tinglestripe is very good AGAINST
> combat. Just for one card you get a maneuver each combat. This can
> save your S&B Kyasids, even if you will have no Combat Ends.
I don't know who you are responding to in this paragraph, but it isn't
me.
> I will never play a bunch of bleed reduction cards, especially when my
> vampires have AUS to play Telepathic Misdirection. It's just a
> slightly better Telepathic Counter.
Ok, that's you. There has been more and more vaiable bleed reduction
introduced into the game, and this is just another example. Why not
use this *and* Telepathic Misdirection? You can reduce a bleed, bounce
a bleed, and occasionally make actions fail (or run your predator out
of blood). Seems completely reasonable to me.
> IMHO, "good combat cards" are cards that trump opposing combat.
Well, that is certainly a humble opinion.
> There are no good combat cards for THN or Samedi.
Huh. That is also a humble opinion (you know what IMHO means, right?)
The Samedi have combat cards. Are they the best in the game? No, but
they are ok. You have a deck that has the guy with the built in rush
and some opportunistic Compressions or Witherings? You have a good way
to cycle combat cards, you have a good opportunistic combat ability.
> OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> card.
> Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> optimization, even for non-superstar decks?
Ector, I'm not going to say you have a history of rampant over-
reaction and overstating your case but, uh, well, no, I am going to
say that.
The card is pretty good. Not all decks are going to use it, as a lot
of decks (most decks?) are designed to not care what minions it draws--
all vampires in the crypt are worth playing. Some decks care what
specific minions it has in play, and this card will help them, sure.
But how many are in the deck so that you draw one early and often like
you need to? And what are they displacing?
> Imagine you've included
> some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> draw one? Easily - play Wider View.
Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
useful.
> This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
> need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
> only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
Uh, yeah, of course. Once again--overstate your case much?
-Peter
Jozxyqk
> > XZealot wrote:
> > >> Voices of the Castle
> > >> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> > >> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> > >> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> > >> this vampire is enslaved.
> > >> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
> BING! BING! BING! WE HAVE A WINNER!
> Much like Cloak the Gathering, Voices of the Castle may be played
> twice by two separate minions, once by the gargoyle at vis and the
> second time by the tre/!tre at tha. This makes it potentially one of
> the best intercept cards in the game, much like Cloak the Gathering is
> one of the best stealth cards in the game.
I accidentally found myself in this spoiler thread.
Honestly I did mis-click something.
But Norm, this is hardly a new concept for a card.
Have you forgotten Tourette's Voice and Babble (or, to a lesser extent
Draba and Ignis Fatuus) so quickly?
Legendre
> Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
> dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
> your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
> game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
> then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
> useful.
Well, it *is* a trifle, which means if you have a good 80-card deck,
then adding 6 of them to it doesn't do much (unless you're already
trifle heavy).
John Flournoy
> Action, Samedi, no cost
> +1 stealth action
> Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> Otherwise,
> you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
Powerbase: Zurich would seem to be a no-brainer.
I can see a mix of this card, PB: Zurich and Night Moves, along with
some freak drives, being a fairly solid pool-gainer - especially since
Off-Kilter can be played by embraces (who can in turn be veiled.)
-John Flournoy
John Flournoy
> > Off Kilter
> > Action, Samedi, no cost
> > +1 stealth action
> > Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge.
> > Otherwise,
> > you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
>
> > Funny. I'm not predicting this seeing a lot of use, unless
> > there is something for the Samedi that the Edge can be used for.
>
> more uneffective (compare it to Art Scam for example).
Yes and no; the Cemetery typically also involves devoting Master
phases to make it effective such as Coroners Contacts and Info Highway
etc. It can definitely outpace Off Kilter, but Off Kilter I expect can
be played just as well as Cemetary in a deck that's just using one or
two.
-John Flournoy
Satrapa
> > > > Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> > > > Weapon.
> > > > [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> > > > only once
> > > > each round.
> > > > [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> > > > maneuver each
> > > > combat.
> > Secondly. It can be used only once each round on inferior myt, so any
>
> above..."
If this wording is correct "As above, OR" can be understand as either
full myt effect or effect written after "or"
Logically (I'm writing about mathematical logic) if only once should
apply to both myt and MYT it should either be written before myt or
repeated after "or" in MYT.
With little transcription to mathematic notation it would look like
this:
(For each mytherceria level) *this card is considered weapon with no
cost)
&
(
(at myt can be used once each round to deal 2R damage as a strike)
or
(if used at MYT
(can be used once each round to deal 2R damage as a strike)
or
(can be used to deal 1R damage as a strike with optional maneuver)
)
).
So far all cards with same requirement or restrain that are the same
to all effects regardless discipline or discipline level was used had
it written before all effects or repeated in all effects.
So either this wording isn't correct or your (official) interpretation
of how this card works is different than result specified by card
text.
>Who tells about MYT combat? It will be ineffective anyway, as there is
>nothing decent besides Swords. But Tinglestripe is very good AGAINST
>combat. Just for one card you get a maneuver each combat. This can
>save your S&B Kyasids, even if you will have no Combat Ends.
If this card would replace combat cards in deck it have one of 2
flaws.
1 - you have to take an action to equip with this weapon
2 - you have to take concealed weapon (or similar card) to use it
without taking an action to equip
In first case it takes away from you action that could be used to
bleed, hunt, etc. and can be blocked (if Tinglestripe was meant to use
as something against intercept combat it is only a way to for it to
enter combat with you - and most likely without any way of your
defense).
In second case to be sure that you will be able to use it on time
without taking an action it requires enough cards (if you want to have
it reasonably quick) not to be worth effort.
Either way if you are sure that it is good protection against combat
decks I have to have meta full of brilliant combat decks because all
of them have ways to overcome single maneuver (or fight at both
ranges) and danger of receiving 2 damage don't impress or endanger
them at all (due to much higher damage followed by taste of vitae,
damage prevention or at least good blood gain).
Frederick Scott
news:8ce6395a-9e4a-4d10...@v37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
From a standpoint of master phase actions, that's fine. However, putting
6 master cards, whether trifle or not, impedes card flow in a deck. If
you play decks that depend on running through a fair number of cards
during your turn, you don't want to be drawing master cards that you
can't play until your next turn. If you put 6 of them in your deck, you
will draw them at bad times.
Also, there's an issue about card slots in your overall deck. It weakens
a deck to put a card in it that doesn't do enough in and of itself or
doesn't support that theme of the deck and the methods that you're using
to stay alive and/or oust your prey. There's a lot of cards in the game
which are just "good" in a generic sense: cards like The Barrens, Elder
Library, Giant's Blood (in non-weenie decks), Carlton Van Wyck, Heart of
Nizchetus, Life in the City, Storage Annex, and probably more I'm not
thinking about. And this says nothing about cards that _could_ be good
if drawn at the right time in the right game like Pentex Subversion and
Golconda. But you can't just build decks out of cards that are
generically "good"; or at least I haven't seen anyone win with such a
philosophy in its purest sense. I believe Wider View will probably fall
into that category of card: if it solves a real problem with your crypt
often enough to strengthen your deck more than weaken it, fine. I don't
believe it's good enough to just throw into every deck.
Fred
LSJ
> > > Secondly. It can be used only once each round on inferior myt, so any
>
> > Card text above indicates only once regardless of level: "[MYT] As
> > above..."
>
> If this wording is correct "As above, OR" can be understand as either
> full myt effect or effect written after "or"
Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike only once each
round. Or strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver each combat.
Note that it doesn't say "this strike can be used only once", but
rather "this weapon".
Which makes it equivalent to:
(Strike: 2R damage.) OR (Strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver
each combat). This weapon can be used as a strike only once each
round.
> >Who tells about MYT combat? It will be ineffective anyway, as there is
> >nothing decent besides Swords. But Tinglestripe is very good AGAINST
> >combat. Just for one card you get a maneuver each combat. This can
> >save your S&B Kyasids, even if you will have no Combat Ends.
>
> If this card would replace combat cards in deck it have one of 2
> flaws.
That wasn't a quote from me.
Chris Berger
>
> > Hide the Heart
> > Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> > [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> > [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> > may burn 1
> > blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> > Heart may
> > be played ay [val] each action.
> > [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> > against any Methuselah by 2.
>
> > Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> > staple in !salubri wall decks.
>
> Weak card - just burns one blood.
>
Hide the Heart is AMAZING. At val, it cancels any ally's action, or
any hunt, and also has a good chance of cancelling actions that cost
blood when attempted by vampires that are low on blood. It is also a
superior bleed reducer that gets around one of the two biggest
problems of bleed reducers - i.e. it can always be cycled at inferior
on any action, assuming you're not being bled enough to need the
superior (the other biggest problem is that bleed reduction is card-
intensive, which continues to be a problem with this, but "reduce by
2" isn't unreasonably inefficient in that regard). Considering that
it's hard to get enough superior disciplines on !Sal, which makes
Auspex bounce hard to use, I'm pretty sure that this and Aversion are
all the bleed defense you'll ever need. And it doubles as blood
denial!
>
> > Wider View
> > Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> > Master: Trifle
> > Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> > top card
> > from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> > a crypt
> > card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> > transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> > I'm assuming this is do x to y, so can only be used once per
> > turn. It's very nice however even so.
>
> "Very nice" isn' enough. This is *uber-powerful* even if can be used
> only once per turn. You spend only a trifle and 1 pool to optimize
> your crypt draw, and when you don't need that anymore, you will gain 2
> pool. Thus, you can freely put 3-4 Wider Views in every deck.
> I wonder, is it a starter-only card or not?
>
I don't hold with uber-powerful, but definitely a new staple. I would
probably use this in ~50% of my decks if I had enough copies.
XZealot
Never herd of 'em. :)
Babble is good, but Tourette's Voice is ever-so-forgettable due to all
the Daughters being nearly incapable of blocking/generating intercept
Viking
In the non-revised VtM, yup, but there they don't have Fortitude. It's
interesting to see how the Malkavians got their clan disciplines
changed in VtES as per what happened in VtM, the !Ventrue didn't
despite it being due to a printing error, and the Samedi get both
their old and their new clan disciplines. Is there some particular
reason for this kind of thing not being consistent, by the way, or is
it just due to different developers?
XZealot
> On 2 Lut, 03:54, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 7:51 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> > > !Salubri, G4, cap 8
> > > AUS FOR VAL ani obe
> > > Sabbat bishop: In combat, the controller of the opposing
> > > minion plays
> > > with an open hand.
>
> > > Really a nice card. And G4, huzzah. So you can play her
> > > with Sennadurek.
>
> > Bingo! Inferior obe actually makes including a bunch of Agent of
> > Power in the deck totally worth it. Oh, did I mention that he
> > completely pairs up with Saulot with the exception of dai/THA, but who
> > needs those nearly unusable disciplines. :)
>
> How? You need to have Agent of Power and card you want to use at
> superior. IMHO inferior obe is worth nearly nothing. I don't
> understand how is he especially good with Sennadurek?
Inferior obe is awesome for Vitae Block and Spirit Marrionette, and
gets much better when you bump them up to superior.
> > > Isanwayen
> > > Kiasyd, G4, cap 6
> > > DOM MYT OBT
> > > Sabbat: While ready Isanwayen may tap to give you an
> > > additional master
> > > phase action. Recuing him from torpor costs an additional
> > > blood. Cold
> > > iron vulnerability.
>
> > > Hmm, seems pretty balanced. Extra MPA, but taps him/it/her.
> > > All in clans at SUP. G4 - that's good.
>
> > Especially if you can figure out how to untap him, like say with a
> > Rutor's Hand or some other untappy stuff.
>
> He don't have tha, he dont have for. Untaping him will be difficult,
> especially in master phase. He might be good tough for masters out of
> turn.
CrimethInc at Tha untaps him no problem once he becomes an anarch.
> > > Wider View
> > > Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> > > Master: Trifle
> > > Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> > > top card
> > > from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> > > a crypt
> > > card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> > > transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
>
> Someone said it is overpowered. First of all it takes time to get it
> and it takes time to influence out vampire. It is strong if you are
> secure. Good card imho.
> Someone else said it is "welcome big crypts". How so? How does it
> supports big crypts? So you can use it longer for searching your crypt
> for this one wanted vampire? It is imho good especially for bloodlines
> (who are limited to ~5 vampires per group) when you have your 2-3
> minions on the table it is easier to look for another one if you have
> pool to influence another one.
It's good for any deck where you are including multiple copies of any
of your vampires.
> > > Tinglestripe
> > > Equipment, requires Mytherceria, no cost
> > > Weapon.
> > > [myt]Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike
> > > only once
> > > each round.
> > > [MYT] As above, or strike: 1R damage, with an optional
> > > maneuver each
> > > combat.
>
> > I am seeing weenie celerity with Agent of Power to get Free Desert
> > Eagles...err I mean Tinglestripes.
> >What??? You get almost a Magnum for free and still not sure? :)
>
> First of all it isn't gun. So you will not use DBR, scatershoot or any
> other nice ammo with it.
> Secondly. It can be used only once each round on inferior myt, so any
> other additional strikes have to be used with different weapon (of if
> you would like you can "shot" for 1 and then blurr and again 1 and 2
> damage. No... it isn't cool at all. I like this card but most likely
> I'll never use it. Earth swords are much better option for myt combat.
Correct, but you can use the best ammo card in the game, Target:
Vitals.
The once each round is something I didn't notice, but it is still
quite good. Especially since you can use it with Concealed Weapon.
XZealot
> Voices of the Castle
> Reaction, tha/vis, no cost
> [tha] This vampire burns 1 blood to get +1 intercept.
> [vis] +1 intercept, or give +1 intecept to a vampire to whom
> this
> vampire is enslaved.
> [VIS] Reduce a bleed against you by 2.
OMG! Stealth Bleed is ruined! The whole strategy is worthless! No
One will ever be able to Stealth Bleed again EVER!
Oko
> Hide the Heart
> Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> may burn 1
> blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> Heart may
> be played ay [val] each action.
> [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> against any Methuselah by 2.
>
> Hmm, action fails. That's a new one. I'm seeing this as a
> staple in !salubri wall decks.
What's that? GtU bleed when you have one blood? Oh, snap. Awe until
your empty? Dang.
If it is as written, I love the fact that you can play it whenever.
> Wider View
> Master, no requirements, 1 pool
> Master: Trifle
> Put this card in play. You may use a transfer to move the
> top card
> from your crypt to your uncontrolled region and then remove
> a crypt
> card in your uncontrolled region from the game. You may use four
> transfers to burn this card and gain 2 pool.
Umm. Yeah. 's good.
Appreciate the Ascendance effect.
>
> love the availability of Villeins. I'll have 16 more after
> I open my box of starters. Yay.
I hear you. Last night I played a Minion Tap for eight. Gained four.
Was miffed.
-Otto
Peter D Bakija
> Well, it *is* a trifle, which means if you have a good 80-card deck,
> then adding 6 of them to it doesn't do much (unless you're already
> trifle heavy).
Sure--some decks will do exactly that, and it'll probably work fine
for those decks. But still, you now have a lot of master cards in your
deck. That they are trifles helps cycle them when you have them during
your master phase, but when you draw them in the middle of a turn
instead of something that actually helps you win, they'll be slowing
you down.
Don't get me wrong--Wider View *is* a good card and *will* see play.
But I don't think it is shaking the foundations of the game or
anything. As noted, a lot of decks (probably the majority of decks)
aren't that concerned with what particular minions they draw in a
given game--as long as you get an average draw of your crypt, you'll
do ok. There are some decks that want specific minions, sure. And
Wider View will certainly help them out. But not without an added
cost.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I don't hold with uber-powerful, but definitely a new staple. I would
> probably use this in ~50% of my decks if I had enough copies.
Yeah, I don't even know if 50% is true on my end. Thinking of the
decks I have in circulation currently, maybe 2 or 3 of the 12 or so I
have working right now could benefit from Wider View--the rest have
crypts that are mostly interchangeable.
-Peter
Haze Rever
I think Wider View would be a pretty good way to search for Advanced
vampire cards for merging, without having to tap for Epiphany or Gift
of Experience. You won't be forced to devote 5-6 crypt cards of the
same vampire just to merge it, you can settle for 2-3 (most of them
aren't good enough as a superstar anyway). This should make those
Advanced vampires a little more playable!
But yeah I think Peter's right. Are you guys really devoting 6 master
card slots to Ascendance/Effective Management in your current decks?
Instead of Dreams of the Sphinx and Blood Dolls? Then Wider View is
sure to replace all of them!
Dasein
Incorrect. (assuming spoiler text is correct).
It has no "during X do Y" template, so you can use it as many times as
you want / are able.
If you have one transfer, you can use it once in your influence phase.
If you have 8 transfers, you can use it 8 times in your influence
phase.
It's good. Really good.
librarian
Exactly, and the difference between Babble and VotC is that
if you block with Dem, you don't have too much combatty
stuff to back it up. While if you block with VotC, you have
Tha and Visceratika to back it up, and maybe Pot too...
best -
chris
librarian
>
> I wonder, is it a starter-only card or not?
>
>>
I'm wondering that about all of the cards? I think not,
judging by this from the WW page:
"All the new cards in the preconstructed decks are also
found in the boosters,"
Understandably, there is some confusion due to some early
promotional text released by Potomac.
best -
chris
librarian
> Hide the Heart
> > Reaction, aus/val, no cost
> > [aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
> > [val] The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion
> > may burn 1
> > blood to cancel this card as it is played. Onle one Hide the
> > Heart may
> > be played ay [val] each action.
> > [VAL] Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed
> > against any Methuselah by 2.
>
>> Well, really, it reduces bleeds by 2. And if you need to cycle it
>> against a non bleed action, it burns one blood. If you have a bunch of
>> them, your predator runs out of blood very quickly, and then when they
>> are low on blood, their actions start failing. Seems totally
>> reasonable to me.
> I will never play a bunch of bleed reduction cards, especially when my
> vampires have AUS to play Telepathic Misdirection. It's just a
> slightly better Telepathic Counter.
> But the ability of reducing bleed against other player can be very
> important. And this can even justify playing a bunch of Hide the
> Hearts.
Hey Ector - good to have you back! We haven't had a fun
controversy in a while :-)
I like the flexibility. Action fails, or reduce bleed. You
can even sprinkle in some Tele Counter too. The big thing
about having minions burn blood is that they have a tougher
time playing SCE (except broken Earth Meld), as well as Skin
of Rock, Rolling w/Punches at FOR, Hidden strength etc etc;
and eventually you will catch them, and they can't do
anything about it.
The other thing, is you can do table management because it
can effect anyone at the table. I'm not sure it fits in
with my play-style either, but I think it's decent, and like
I said originally, I'm going to build a !Salubri deck 2nd
(probably BB will be my first build).
best -
chris
librarian
> On Feb 2, 7:35 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
>>> I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
>>> "Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
>>> important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
>>> playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
>>> Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
>>> the world or anything.
>> which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
>> strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
>> card.
>> Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
>> some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
>> all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
>> change something.
>> need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
>> only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
>
> seems like it would probably be a good master card... but as a trifle,
> it's just too much.
Like the Heart of Cheating, it's a hand optimizer, the hand
in this case is your crypt.
Just to pile on the goodness factor, it's not unique, it's
not a location.
I'll have to try it out and see it in play before I declare
it game-breaking, but it seems to definitely be on the good
side.
best -
chris
librarian
> On Feb 2, 10:35 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> Who tells about MYT combat? It will be ineffective anyway, as there is
>> nothing decent besides Swords. But Tinglestripe is very good AGAINST
>> combat. Just for one card you get a maneuver each combat. This can
>> save your S&B Kyasids, even if you will have no Combat Ends.
>
> I don't know who you are responding to in this paragraph, but it isn't
> me.
>
>> I will never play a bunch of bleed reduction cards, especially when my
>> vampires have AUS to play Telepathic Misdirection. It's just a
>> slightly better Telepathic Counter.
>
> Ok, that's you. There has been more and more vaiable bleed reduction
> introduced into the game, and this is just another example. Why not
> use this *and* Telepathic Misdirection? You can reduce a bleed, bounce
> a bleed, and occasionally make actions fail (or run your predator out
> of blood). Seems completely reasonable to me.
>
>> IMHO, "good combat cards" are cards that trump opposing combat.
>
> Well, that is certainly a humble opinion.
>
>> There are no good combat cards for THN or Samedi.
>
> Huh. That is also a humble opinion (you know what IMHO means, right?)
>
> The Samedi have combat cards. Are they the best in the game? No, but
> they are ok. You have a deck that has the guy with the built in rush
> and some opportunistic Compressions or Witherings? You have a good way
> to cycle combat cards, you have a good opportunistic combat ability.
>
>>
And who knows what other THN goodness will be in the new set.
best -
chris
librarian
Exactly. I don't have too many superstar decks, and
usually, I have a back-up vamp (like in my Lazverinus deck,
I've got Ignacio Giovanni). Would I take up a card
slot/potential MPA(albeit trifle) just to go search for Laz?
Maybe.
Perhaps the key is to look at this as a quicker Short Term
Investment, and therefore better...?
best -
chris
librarian
And as someone mentioned upthread, OffKilter can chain
fairly effectively.
best -
chris
Peter D Bakija
> Exactly. I don't have too many superstar decks, and
> usually, I have a back-up vamp (like in my Lazverinus deck,
> I've got Ignacio Giovanni). Would I take up a card
> slot/potential MPA(albeit trifle) just to go search for Laz?
> Maybe.
Sure. Maybe. In some decks? Absolutely. But not all of them. Not by a
long shot.
> Perhaps the key is to look at this as a quicker Short Term
> Investment, and therefore better...?
Uh, perhaps? If used for nothing but pool gain, it is a trifle that
costs 4 transfers for a gain of 1 pool. Certainly better than
Ascendance in most cases. But not something I'd include in decks just
to gain the 1 pool.
-Peter
Frederick Scott
news:hkaegi$qji$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Ector wrote:
>
>> I wonder, is it a starter-only card or not?
>
> I'm wondering that about all of the cards? I think not,
> judging by this from the WW page:
>
> "All the new cards in the preconstructed decks are also
> found in the boosters,"
Erm, well, also the fact that all of the new library cards
mentioned are listed in the subsequent library card checklist
and tagged with a 'C' (for 'common'). If they were starter-
only cards, one would be tempted to ask, "common what?"
Other starter-only cards, such as King's Favor in the Guruhi
starter in Legacies of Blood are tagged P(x) where '(x)' is the
initial of the precon deck ('G' for Guruhi) and contain no 'R',
'U', or 'C' legend for the new card in question at all.
I think it's fair to say that the Heirs to the Blood library
cards in Heirs to the Blood precons are all Heirs to the Blood
booster commons as well. And, likewise, the vampires are all
Heirs to the Blood booster vampires.
Fred
librarian
> On Feb 2, 2:57 pm, Obtenebration <obtenebrat...@obtenebration.org>
> wrote:
>>> That already was very viable with Sargon, who doesn't even need a card
>>> to get the edge and even has Serpentis, but somehow it just doesn't
>>> work right. Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> Yeah, but Sargon did Sargon gain you one pool each time? Not exactly
>> a show stopper, but seems better than that idea.
>>
>>> Furthermore FoS and Samedi don't mix very well together :(-
>> OBF for in some cases
>
> well you would be using midcaps at least for that (no real lowcaps for
> samedi) so this strategy could be a bit below those vamps :) Assuming
> you don't have the edge. you can use 2 cards and 2 vamps to gain 1
> pool and have your prey lose 3. Would be the same with legal
> manipulations and 1 minion (though that can be delflected). Con is
> that you cannot bleed after the enticement and would thus need another
> Off Kilter again. But 5000 points for the more flunky deck :)
Yes, I can't wait to see my pred or prey busting out Sargon
and Lithrac. So many moving parts. I will be sad to see my
x-table opponent playing it however...
At least if my grand pred plays it, I don't have to worry
too much about getting bounced to.
best -
chris
Ector
Frederick Scott wrote:
> "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:96cae65e-3224-4692...@f11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>
> >>I don't know if "uber-powerful" is really the phrase here.
> >>"Pretty solid" is reasonable. You can burn out your crypt to find the
> >>important minion you want. Makes superstar decks that much more
> >>playable (which is nice). You can get rid of it to gain a pool.
> >>Flexible, reasonably useful in the right deck. Unlikely to burn down
> >>the world or anything.
> >
> > OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> > which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> > strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> > card.
> > Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> > optimization, even for non-superstar decks? Imagine you've included
> > some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> > draw one? Easily - play Wider View. What if you rely on Governs, but
> > all vampires you draw have equal capacity? You play Wider View to
> > change something.
> > This card is uber-powerful. You will get exactly the vampires you
> > need. This will allow brilliant "vampire combo" decks. Actually, the
> > only decks that DON'T need Wider View are the disciplineless weenies.
>
> I think what you're not taking into account is that there's no guarantee
> you'll draw Wider View when it can do all these wonderful things for
> you. How many will you include in your deck? At some point, such a
> card takes up too much deckspace for what it's worth if your crypt
> otherwise functions reasonably well. And if you don't put more than a
> couple in, you often won't draw it when you really need it. It's an
> awful lot like Info Highway or Zillah's Valley in that in that it would
> be really powerful if you could only guarantee you could draw it in your
> opening hand. But you can't. It is true that unlike IH and ZV it's
> not worthless if drawn later on but you're wrong about it being "strictly
> better than Ascendance". Ascendance neither requires a seed pool to
> play (meaning you can't play Wider View if you have only 1 pool) nor
> 4 transfers to function.
Wider View is great if you need to improve your crypt draw - even in
late game, unlike Info Highway or Zilla's Valley. You may keep a copy
of some vampire in your uncontrolled region until you draw Wider View
and then, if you can, influence another vampire.
If your crypt draw is good, you will get +1 pool for a trifle and 4
transfers. You're right that sometimes you will need the transfers
even if you won't influence new vampires (for moving blood to your
pool, for instance), but in most cases you will find a turn when
transfers will be completely useless for you.
I guess I shouldn't use the hyper-expressive words like "uber-
powerful", but this card is going to be played a lot and will find a
way into many different decks. That doesn't happen very often in a
game with so long history and so large card pool as VTES, and when it
happens, that's really exciting!
Ector
> I don't know who you are responding to in this paragraph, but it isn't
> me.
Sorry for that. I just tried to avoid the number of posts and forgot
about the hierarchical structure of this group. I really prefer
"linear" forums.
> > I will never play a bunch of bleed reduction cards, especially when my
> > vampires have AUS to play Telepathic Misdirection. It's just a
> > slightly better Telepathic Counter.
>
> Ok, that's you. There has been more and more vaiable bleed reduction
> introduced into the game, and this is just another example. Why not
> use this *and* Telepathic Misdirection? You can reduce a bleed, bounce
> a bleed, and occasionally make actions fail (or run your predator out
> of blood). Seems completely reasonable to me.
A good decks should stop their predators and oust their preys. Bleed
reduction cards can slow down (not stop) some predators (not all of
them) and do completely nothing to your prey. That's why I don't like
them.
> > IMHO, "good combat cards" are cards that trump opposing combat.
>
> Well, that is certainly a humble opinion.
>
> > There are no good combat cards for THN or Samedi.
>
> Huh. That is also a humble opinion (you know what IMHO means, right?)
Yes, I know that. My "humble" means exactly the following:
"I acknowledge that I can be wrong and will thank you very much if you
prove that."
That looks humbly enough for me.
But if you're going to discuss my personal habits or other silliness,
I'm not going to participate in that.
> The Samedi have combat cards. Are they the best in the game? No, but
> they are ok. You have a deck that has the guy with the built in rush
> and some opportunistic Compressions or Witherings? You have a good way
> to cycle combat cards, you have a good opportunistic combat ability.
A good combat deck is a deck that easily overcomes dodges and Combat
Ends. Do I have to explain that to you? I guess not.
As long as you don't have a *reliable* (not opportunistic) way to
torporize, you don't need a rushing vampire. After all, you are paying
pool for that ability, right?
> > OK. If you don't need new vampires, you just get +1 pool for a trifle,
> > which is "unlikely to burn the world". But even this "cycling" is
> > strictly better than Ascendance, which is a clear sign of a very good
> > card.
> > Do you really fail to understand how important is crypt draw
> > optimization, even for non-superstar decks?
>
> Ector, I'm not going to say you have a history of rampant over-
> reaction and overstating your case but, uh, well, no, I am going to
> say that.
>
> The card is pretty good. Not all decks are going to use it, as a lot
> of decks (most decks?) are designed to not care what minions it draws--
> all vampires in the crypt are worth playing. Some decks care what
> specific minions it has in play, and this card will help them, sure.
> But how many are in the deck so that you draw one early and often like
> you need to? And what are they displacing?
1). I don't have to "draw one early". My second copy of some vampire
can wait in my uncontrolled region until I draw Wider View.
2). While all vampires may be worth playing, some of them are better
than the others. Probably, even much better. And getting these
vampires would be very advantageous.
Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"??? Call it
"staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
better than just "good". Dreams isn't "good", it's amazing and it
changes the whole game! Same about Villein and Wider View.
I would put Wider View into every deck that has at least 3 copies of
some vampire to replace the second copy with something else. I would
put it into every deck having a great difference in capacity to avoid
"all heavies" or "all weenies" situations.
Having looked through the last 10 decks from the TWDA, I would put
Wider Views into 8 of them. Ricardo Marta's !Ventrues and Scott Gomes'
Assamites aren't going to get much from it, but all the others are.
> > Imagine you've included
> > some vamps with Dominate for Deflections, but how can you be sure to
> > draw one? Easily - play Wider View.
>
> Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
> dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
> your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
> game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
> then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
> useful.
3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
get a vampire with Dominate. And I can avoid spoiling my crypt with
extra Dom-vampires to increase the chances of getting one. This is
huge.
Frederick Scott
> Wider View is great if you need to improve your crypt draw - even in
> late game, unlike Info Highway or Zilla's Valley. You may keep a copy
> of some vampire in your uncontrolled region until you draw Wider View
> and then, if you can, influence another vampire.
> If your crypt draw is good, you will get +1 pool for a trifle and 4
> transfers. You're right that sometimes you will need the transfers
> even if you won't influence new vampires (for moving blood to your
> pool, for instance), but in most cases you will find a turn when
> transfers will be completely useless for you.
One other nit:
It appears to me to be totally incompatible with the pool gain usage of
cards like Art Museum unless you've got Info Highway out.
> I guess I shouldn't use the hyper-expressive words like "uber-
> powerful", but this card is going to be played a lot and will find a
> way into many different decks. That doesn't happen very often in a
> game with so long history and so large card pool as VTES, and when it
> happens, that's really exciting!
It's a good card, no question.
Fred
Raziel
> "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in messagenews:16498deb-8b91-4140...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> One other nit:
>
> It appears to me to be totally incompatible with the pool gain usage of
> cards like Art Museum unless you've got Info Highway out.
>
Unless you spend one turn using WW (move 1 to a vamp), and second turn
transferring back 2 blood from vampire to your pool.
suoli
> One other nit:
>
> It appears to me to be totally incompatible with the pool gain usage of
> cards like Art Museum unless you've got Info Highway out.
How so? You only need 2 transfers to move 1 pool back. That leaves 2
transfers to fish for a vampire of the appropriate clan in case you're
mixing two or more clans.
James Coupe
>Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
>will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
>good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
>get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"??? Call it
>"staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
>better than just "good".
Staple and uber-powerful are utterly different things. Lost in Crowds
is a staple of stealth-bleed decks, but not uber-powerful. Immortal
Grapple is a staple of rush combat, but not uber-powerful. Bewitching
Oration is a staple of political decks, but not uber-powerful. That you
might want to put multiples of a given card in a particular deck(s)
because it's useful does not make the card uber-powerful. Well-designed
common cards work like that all the time.
Replacing one word with the other is unlikely to help, and more than
likely to confuse.
>> Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
>> dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
>> your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
>> game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
>> then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
>> useful.
>3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
>guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
>get a vampire with Dominate.
Immediately jumping on Wider View to solve this problem is likely to
paper over cracks that you would be better off addressing in the crypt.
Addressing those *as well* as considering Wider View is likely to help.
3 copies of a card in a 90 card deck makes it quite difficult to draw
early. Decks that rely on a specific combination of vampires being
available in their crypt and choke without them really need the vampires
early. Cycling into the card halfway through turn 4 is less helpful
when - at that point - you could often just be drawing another vampire
yourself, and using your Trifle to play Villein instead.
Useful tool? Yes.
Easily mis-used tool? Potentially.
Uber-powerful? I don't see it.
Your signal-to-noise ratio on identifying uber-powerful cards suggests
that you might want to re-evaluate your position.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Ector
James Coupe wrote:
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> >Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
> >will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
> >good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
> >get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"??? Call it
> >"staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
> >better than just "good".
>
> Staple and uber-powerful are utterly different things. Lost in Crowds
> is a staple of stealth-bleed decks, but not uber-powerful. Immortal
> Grapple is a staple of rush combat, but not uber-powerful. Bewitching
> Oration is a staple of political decks, but not uber-powerful. That you
> might want to put multiples of a given card in a particular deck(s)
> because it's useful does not make the card uber-powerful. Well-designed
> common cards work like that all the time.
>
> Replacing one word with the other is unlikely to help, and more than
> likely to confuse.
Please remember that English isn't my native language, so the word
"staple" didn't even come into my mind :(
Anyway, your definition of "staple" completely differs from from the
word I'd like to use for Wider View. IGs and Bewitchings are "meat"
for certain more-or less "tasty" decks, while Wider View is a "spice"
that's going to improve a HUGE number of DIFFERENT decks. Such cards
are very rare, that's why I wrote "uber-powerful".
>
> >> Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
> >> dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
> >> your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
> >> game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
> >> then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
> >> useful.
> >3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
> >guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
> >get a vampire with Dominate.
>
> Immediately jumping on Wider View to solve this problem is likely to
> paper over cracks that you would be better off addressing in the crypt.
> Addressing those *as well* as considering Wider View is likely to help.
That's exactly what I'm advocating.
> 3 copies of a card in a 90 card deck makes it quite difficult to draw
> early. Decks that rely on a specific combination of vampires being
> available in their crypt and choke without them really need the vampires
> early. Cycling into the card halfway through turn 4 is less helpful
> when - at that point - you could often just be drawing another vampire
> yourself, and using your Trifle to play Villein instead.
>
> Useful tool? Yes.
> Easily mis-used tool? Potentially.
> Uber-powerful? I don't see it.
Decks that rely on a specific vampires will generally have several
copies of them. I didn't propose to rely solely on Wider Views, but it
helps to improve your draw. If you have 4 Anneke and 4 Anson, you
still can get a draw without one of them - and Wider View will fix it.
You may need a little Toreador for Grand Ball, and Wider View will
provide that. It's a spice that makes almost every meal better.
Ector
James Coupe wrote:
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> >Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
> >will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
> >good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
> >get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"??? Call it
> >"staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
> >better than just "good".
>
> Staple and uber-powerful are utterly different things. Lost in Crowds
> is a staple of stealth-bleed decks, but not uber-powerful. Immortal
> Grapple is a staple of rush combat, but not uber-powerful. Bewitching
> Oration is a staple of political decks, but not uber-powerful. That you
> might want to put multiples of a given card in a particular deck(s)
> because it's useful does not make the card uber-powerful. Well-designed
> common cards work like that all the time.
>
> Replacing one word with the other is unlikely to help, and more than
> likely to confuse.
Please remember that English isn't my native language, so the word
"staple" didn't even come into my mind :(
Anyway, your definition of "staple" completely differs from from the
word I'd like to use for Wider View. IGs and Bewitchings are "meat"
for certain more-or less "tasty" decks, while Wider View is a "spice"
that's going to improve a HUGE number of DIFFERENT decks. Such cards
are very rare, that's why I wrote "uber-powerful".
>
> >> Or, you can include 5 or 6 of the vampires in your crypt with
> >> dominate, which isn't that hard. And again, how many Wider View are in
> >> your deck? 3-4? You will often not draw any for the first half of the
> >> game. 6-8? You'll get one when you need one a lot of the time, but
> >> then you have 6-8 cards in your deck that could be something more
> >> useful.
> >3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
> >guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
> >get a vampire with Dominate.
>
> Immediately jumping on Wider View to solve this problem is likely to
> paper over cracks that you would be better off addressing in the crypt.
> Addressing those *as well* as considering Wider View is likely to help.
That's exactly what I'm advocating.
> 3 copies of a card in a 90 card deck makes it quite difficult to draw
> early. Decks that rely on a specific combination of vampires being
> available in their crypt and choke without them really need the vampires
> early. Cycling into the card halfway through turn 4 is less helpful
> when - at that point - you could often just be drawing another vampire
> yourself, and using your Trifle to play Villein instead.
>
> Useful tool? Yes.
> Easily mis-used tool? Potentially.
> Uber-powerful? I don't see it.
James Coupe
>Please remember that English isn't my native language, so the word
>"staple" didn't even come into my mind :(
Staple is, in fact, the word you just told us to use instead of uber-
powerful.
"Call it "staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you,"
I can only assume that the word staple did come into your mind.
>Anyway, your definition of "staple" completely differs from from the
>word I'd like to use for Wider View. IGs and Bewitchings are "meat"
>for certain more-or less "tasty" decks,
That's because that's what staple means.
"a basic or necessary item of food: She bought flour, sugar, salt, and
other staples. "
In CCG terms, it's the necessary basic building blocks that other more
elaborate cards rest on, just as in cookery it's the basic ingredients
and not exotic unknowns.
>while Wider View is a "spice"
>that's going to improve a HUGE number of DIFFERENT decks. Such cards
>are very rare, that's why I wrote "uber-powerful".
Again with the hyperbole. Can you crank yourself down from shrill,
uncritical acclamation to somewhere around enthusiastically interested?
There are plenty of decks that aren't so dependent on their crypt draw,
because their inventors design a very flexible deck. An identi-kit
swarm bleed or weenie stealth bleed deck isn't going to need this. A
variety of decks may well decide the master phase action is better spent
on something else (even with a Trifle). Many such decks will be able to
carry on just fine, with or without Wider View.
Star vampire decks may still need to think carefully about Pentex
Subversion, and other debilitating master cards. If you're using up
your master phase actions on other things, do you still have enough Wash
or Bleeding the Vine (or whatever else) on hand to cope? Star vampire
decks, which really, really need that star out, are especially
vulnerable to such ploys.
Where Wider View may be more interesting is in decks that would *like* a
particular vampire, but don't need it - rather than those which are
built around a particular vampire(s). A good example might be some of
the Spirit Marionette decks of old. Rob Treasure had an interesting one
that had something like 9 copies of assorted Dominate weenies, and 3
copies of Matthias - a decent chance of coming up early, but not even
close to guaranteed. However, the deck was designed so that - as far as
possible - it could devolve into being a Dominate swarm bleed deck.
(The fallback level of Spirit Marionette working well here.) If it
pulled Matthias later on, that was obviously fine too.
A couple of copies of Wider View could potentially such a deck by *not*
being added in significant multiples. You don't *need* the 'star'
vampire, but it would be nice. So you pull Wider View at some point and
potentially get to bring the star out, but the deck functions perfectly
well without him or her.
Compare your reaction to Wider View, about how huge numbers of decks are
going to need it, with your similar reaction to Victor Pelletier, where
everyone was going to need 50 copies. Funny how that one didn't work
out how you predicted.
suoli
Ector already admitted that "uber" was a bad choice of words and gave
a very good explanation of why he mistakenly used it. Why do you keep
rubbing it in?
Ector
James Coupe wrote:
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> >Please remember that English isn't my native language, so the word
> >"staple" didn't even come into my mind :(
>
> Staple is, in fact, the word you just told us to use instead of uber-
> powerful.
>
> "Call it "staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you,"
>
> I can only assume that the word staple did come into your mind.
Only from this discussion *after* my initial post.
> >Anyway, your definition of "staple" completely differs from from the
> >word I'd like to use for Wider View. IGs and Bewitchings are "meat"
> >for certain more-or less "tasty" decks,
>
> That's because that's what staple means.
>
> "a basic or necessary item of food: She bought flour, sugar, salt, and
> other staples. "
>
> In CCG terms, it's the necessary basic building blocks that other more
> elaborate cards rest on, just as in cookery it's the basic ingredients
> and not exotic unknowns.
>
> >while Wider View is a "spice"
> >that's going to improve a HUGE number of DIFFERENT decks. Such cards
> >are very rare, that's why I wrote "uber-powerful".
>
> Again with the hyperbole. Can you crank yourself down from shrill,
> uncritical acclamation to somewhere around enthusiastically interested?
>
> There are plenty of decks that aren't so dependent on their crypt draw,
> because their inventors design a very flexible deck. An identi-kit
> swarm bleed or weenie stealth bleed deck isn't going to need this. A
> variety of decks may well decide the master phase action is better spent
> on something else (even with a Trifle). Many such decks will be able to
> carry on just fine, with or without Wider View.
While that's true, that doesn't nullify the fact that Wider View is
going to minimize the chance of "bad crypt draws" for a little price
and actually improve many different kinds of decks. Such cards are
quite rare in VTES.
> Star vampire decks may still need to think carefully about Pentex
> Subversion, and other debilitating master cards. If you're using up
> your master phase actions on other things, do you still have enough Wash
> or Bleeding the Vine (or whatever else) on hand to cope? Star vampire
> decks, which really, really need that star out, are especially
> vulnerable to such ploys.
>
>
> Where Wider View may be more interesting is in decks that would *like* a
> particular vampire, but don't need it - rather than those which are
> built around a particular vampire(s). A good example might be some of
> the Spirit Marionette decks of old. Rob Treasure had an interesting one
> that had something like 9 copies of assorted Dominate weenies, and 3
> copies of Matthias - a decent chance of coming up early, but not even
> close to guaranteed. However, the deck was designed so that - as far as
> possible - it could devolve into being a Dominate swarm bleed deck.
> (The fallback level of Spirit Marionette working well here.) If it
> pulled Matthias later on, that was obviously fine too.
>
> A couple of copies of Wider View could potentially such a deck by *not*
> being added in significant multiples. You don't *need* the 'star'
> vampire, but it would be nice. So you pull Wider View at some point and
> potentially get to bring the star out, but the deck functions perfectly
> well without him or her.
I really cannot understand your point. Are you trying to say that good
decks work well even without "star vampires"? Well, but this doesn't
contradict the fact that having star vampire is much better than
lacking it :)
Frankly, your "signal to noise ratio" is decreasing dangerously.
>
> Compare your reaction to Wider View, about how huge numbers of decks are
> going to need it, with your similar reaction to Victor Pelletier, where
> everyone was going to need 50 copies. Funny how that one didn't work
> out how you predicted.
Really? I've found 14 tournament-winning decks with Victor just from
Jan 01, 2009. Some of them have 4 copies of Victor. As long as I never
said that people are going to play *ONLY* Victor, it's safe to assume
that my prediction was quite accurate :)
Peter D Bakija
> Sorry for that. I just tried to avoid the number of posts and forgot
> about the hierarchical structure of this group. I really prefer
> "linear" forums.
Yeah, there is no problem at all incresing the number of posts--just
respond to the posts that you are responding to. It makes following
the discussion a lot easier.
> A good decks should stop their predators and oust their preys. Bleed
> reduction cards can slow down (not stop) some predators (not all of
> them) and do completely nothing to your prey. That's why I don't like
> them.
No one is saying you have to like them. But they *are* useful, and a
nice, flexible, free card that reduces a bleed by 2 or you or anyone
else, cancels actions by allies, and burns blood off your opponents
can hardly be called "bad".
> But if you're going to discuss my personal habits or other silliness,
> I'm not going to participate in that.
I'm not really interested in that either. But when you open with "In
My Humble Opinion" and follow it up with incredibly unhumble
proclamations, it seems like it is just begging to get commented on.
> A good combat deck is a deck that easily overcomes dodges and Combat
> Ends. Do I have to explain that to you? I guess not.
> As long as you don't have a *reliable* (not opportunistic) way to
> torporize, you don't need a rushing vampire. After all, you are paying
> pool for that ability, right?
Dude. Really. The minion is reasonably good, discipline wise, and
comes with built in rush. With a clan that has a lot of combat cards.
How is this *bad*? Again, are the THN combat cards earth shattering?
No. But if you have Compressions (or Trap/Withering) in your deck,
which isn't horrible (or Groaning Corpse, which is quite good), and
have an opportunistic target, you can rush them. Without a rush card.
You are saying "'Cause THN combat can't instantly torporize someone,
it is bad to have built in rush". Which is kind of preposterous. Give
him a gun (which he can get easily with obfuscate or Hag's Wrinkles)
and you have a solid blood depletion system for your opponents. Built
in rush is *never* a bad ability. Ever. Heck, even on Jozz.
> 1). I don't have to "draw one early". My second copy of some vampire
> can wait in my uncontrolled region until I draw Wider View.
> 2). While all vampires may be worth playing, some of them are better
> than the others. Probably, even much better. And getting these
> vampires would be very advantageous.
All of which are true. No one is saying Wider View isn't a good card.
It is a good card. But you are here proclaiming that it is "uber
powerful" and shaking the foundations of the game, and will be put in
every deck ever. I'm here pointing out that this is a vast
overstatement. The card is good. And will see play. But not in every
deck. Even close. 'Cause a lot of decks don't care. And even as a
trifle, it still takes up card slots and master slots.
> Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
> will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
> good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
> get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"???
Yes. And I said in the next message "I have, like, 2 or 3 decks in 12
already built that it would be useful in." Why aren't you quoting
*that* as supporting evidence?
And I suspect he was overstating the case as well.
> Call it
> "staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
> better than just "good". Dreams isn't "good", it's amazing and it
> changes the whole game!
Dreams doesn't change the whole game. It generates some pool or puts
some cards in your hand.
> Same about Villein and Wider View.
> I would put Wider View into every deck that has at least 3 copies of
> some vampire to replace the second copy with something else. I would
> put it into every deck having a great difference in capacity to avoid
> "all heavies" or "all weenies" situations.
Great! Good luck with that. How many are going in each deck? What are
you taking out to make room for them?
> 3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
> guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
> get a vampire with Dominate. And I can avoid spoiling my crypt with
> extra Dom-vampires to increase the chances of getting one. This is
> huge.
I suspect it is less huge than you seem to think it is.
-Peter
Meej
> On Feb 2, 12:31 pm, Satrapa <jedrzej.komorow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > If this wording is correct "As above, OR" can be understand as either
> > full myt effect or effect written after "or"
>
> Strike: 2R damage. This weapon can be used as a strike only once each
> round. Or strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver each combat.
>
> Note that it doesn't say "this strike can be used only once", but
> rather "this weapon".
>
> Which makes it equivalent to:
>
> (Strike: 2R damage.) OR (Strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver
> each combat). This weapon can be used as a strike only once each
> round.
Slight tangent - is the myt/MYT requirement only used to put it into
play, or also to strike with it? I assume, based on Inscription, the
former.
If, as expected, it's only used to put it into play, does a vampire
playing a Tinglestripe at MYT get a weapon that can always be used for
either, or does the player pick one of the two effects that the
Tinglestripe in question will have available? (In other words, do you
lock it into being 2R or 1R with maneuver, or do you have the choice
each use of the weapon?)
- D.J.
James Coupe
>Ector already admitted that "uber" was a bad choice of words and gave
>a very good explanation of why he mistakenly used it. Why do you keep
>rubbing it in?
Because despite that, he told us how HUGE numbers of decks are going to
be improved by it, just like he needed huge quantities of Victor
Pelletier. Retracting a word and then just replacing it with an equally
dumb, equally hyperbolic, equally unfounded response is dumb.
It would be *really* nice if Ector would do us all a favour and learn
from his mistakes. Instead, he just keeps making them, again and again
and again and again and again and again. Why does he keep doing so?
Peter D Bakija
> Yes, I can't wait to see my pred or prey busting out Sargon
> and Lithrac. So many moving parts. I will be sad to see my
> x-table opponent playing it however...
Dude! I'm *already* building that deck! How can it possibly be bad?
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> While that's true, that doesn't nullify the fact that Wider View is
> going to minimize the chance of "bad crypt draws" for a little price
> and actually improve many different kinds of decks. Such cards are
> quite rare in VTES.
Yes. Yes it is. No one is saying otherwise. Wider View is a good card.
It will see play. People will be enthusiastic about including it in
decks, certainly for a while. But still, it isn't anything than
another good master card that is going to compete for precious master
slots. And a lot of decks aren't going to need it, as they don't
really care if they get a particular vampire. It is a good card. It is
going to see play. But not in every deck. And it isn't going to bust
open the damn that is holding back decks that should be good yet
aren't. It is going to take decks that are already good and improve
them a bit (at a cost). It is probably going to see more play for a
while than is actually warranted.
Really. You are getting flak here, primarily, for the incredibly over-
reaction you are having. As you have, historically, done that. A lot.
And it has always turned out that after the fact, you may have been
overstating your case a bit. And here it looks like you are doing it
again, and so you are getting hassled for it. Just, like, turn it down
a few notches. Say "Wow! Wider View is awesome! I can think of a bunch
of decks that it will improve! Cool!" instead of "This is the BEST
CARD EVER PRINTED! It will DEMOLISH ALL UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME!"
Really, just turn it down from, like, 11 to 7 and you'll be ok.
> I really cannot understand your point. Are you trying to say that good
> decks work well even without "star vampires"? Well, but this doesn't
> contradict the fact that having star vampire is much better than
> lacking it :)
No, he is saying that not all decks will want to use this card. And
even some decks that you would think would want to use this card
probably don't need too many of them.
> Really? I've found 14 tournament-winning decks with Victor just from
> Jan 01, 2009. Some of them have 4 copies of Victor. As long as I never
> said that people are going to play *ONLY* Victor, it's safe to assume
> that my prediction was quite accurate :)
Oh, Ector.
-Peter
LSJ
> > (Strike: 2R damage.) OR (Strike: 1R damage, with an optional maneuver
> > each combat). This weapon can be used as a strike only once each
> > round.
>
> Slight tangent - is the myt/MYT requirement only used to put it into
> play, or also to strike with it? I assume, based on Inscription, the
> former.
Right. cf. Femur of Toomler, Contrast Sword of Judgment.
> If, as expected, it's only used to put it into play, does a vampire
> playing a Tinglestripe at MYT get a weapon that can always be used for
> either, or does the player pick one of the two effects that the
> Tinglestripe in question will have available? (In other words, do you
> lock it into being 2R or 1R with maneuver, or do you have the choice
> each use of the weapon?)
Choice. cf. Nightstick.
Meej
That's what I'd expected, but figured it was worth asking for
clarification.
Thanks -
- D.J.
Ector
Peter D Bakija wrote:
> On Feb 3, 3:28 am, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> > Sorry for that. I just tried to avoid the number of posts and forgot
> > about the hierarchical structure of this group. I really prefer
> > "linear" forums.
>
> Yeah, there is no problem at all incresing the number of posts--just
> respond to the posts that you are responding to. It makes following
> the discussion a lot easier.
OK, it was my fault. Haven't been here for a while :) Glad to discuss
cards with you again, folks!
> > A good decks should stop their predators and oust their preys. Bleed
> > reduction cards can slow down (not stop) some predators (not all of
> > them) and do completely nothing to your prey. That's why I don't like
> > them.
>
> No one is saying you have to like them. But they *are* useful, and a
> nice, flexible, free card that reduces a bleed by 2 or you or anyone
> else, cancels actions by allies, and burns blood off your opponents
> can hardly be called "bad".
Time will tell. But, honestly, I expected something better for a not-
much-popular Discipline.
> > But if you're going to discuss my personal habits or other silliness,
> > I'm not going to participate in that.
>
> I'm not really interested in that either. But when you open with "In
> My Humble Opinion" and follow it up with incredibly unhumble
> proclamations, it seems like it is just begging to get commented on.
Peter, I usually have my opinion which is ALWAYS completely debatable.
I'm not a champion, a guru, an overmind or something like that, and I
can be wrong. That's indicated by "IMHO". I simply hate to write long
clauses like "It seems to me..." or "I'm not completely sure, but it
looks like..." thousand times.
If I will be wrong, I will learn something, which is good. If not, you
will learn something, which (I suppose) is also good. So why not
discuss things in a civilized way?
> > A good combat deck is a deck that easily overcomes dodges and Combat
> > Ends. Do I have to explain that to you? I guess not.
> > As long as you don't have a *reliable* (not opportunistic) way to
> > torporize, you don't need a rushing vampire. After all, you are paying
> > pool for that ability, right?
>
> Dude. Really. The minion is reasonably good, discipline wise, and
> comes with built in rush. With a clan that has a lot of combat cards.
> How is this *bad*? Again, are the THN combat cards earth shattering?
> No. But if you have Compressions (or Trap/Withering) in your deck,
> which isn't horrible (or Groaning Corpse, which is quite good), and
> have an opportunistic target, you can rush them. Without a rush card.
> You are saying "'Cause THN combat can't instantly torporize someone,
> it is bad to have built in rush". Which is kind of preposterous. Give
> him a gun (which he can get easily with obfuscate or Hag's Wrinkles)
> and you have a solid blood depletion system for your opponents. Built
> in rush is *never* a bad ability. Ever. Heck, even on Jozz.
Who said it's a bad ability? The need to pay for it - that's bad.
Nothing comes for free. Do you remember "vampire points" or CAC
tournaments? :) I was just trying to say that I'd prefer something
better for my "points".
Jorge de la Muerte and Tangine also have 7-cap, two clan disciplines
at superior and three other at inferior + some ability, but their
abilities are better. +1 bleed is always good, even conditional, and
dealing 1 damage (with OBF) can change the whole game. The most
important thing: both abilities don't require additional cards except
for stealth that you're going to have a lot anyway.
Rush, on the other hand, can be dangerous, and generally requires
additional cards. Considering the fact that THN combat cards aren't
very good, and the most popular NEC combat card is Spiritual
Intervention, I'd say that inbuilt rush is almost "wasted vampire
points" here.
> > 1). I don't have to "draw one early". My second copy of some vampire
> > can wait in my uncontrolled region until I draw Wider View.
> > 2). While all vampires may be worth playing, some of them are better
> > than the others. Probably, even much better. And getting these
> > vampires would be very advantageous.
>
> All of which are true. No one is saying Wider View isn't a good card.
> It is a good card. But you are here proclaiming that it is "uber
> powerful" and shaking the foundations of the game, and will be put in
> every deck ever. I'm here pointing out that this is a vast
> overstatement. The card is good. And will see play. But not in every
> deck. Even close. 'Cause a lot of decks don't care. And even as a
> trifle, it still takes up card slots and master slots.
Sure. But still, it will make a huge impact on the game. It will
provide a great boost to the decks that CARE about their crypt
draw :)
> > Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
> > will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
> > good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
> > get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"???
>
> Yes. And I said in the next message "I have, like, 2 or 3 decks in 12
> already built that it would be useful in." Why aren't you quoting
> *that* as supporting evidence?
>
> And I suspect he was overstating the case as well.
Why should I use *your* words as an argument? We have a discussion
here. You have your opinion, I have mine. You bring your arguments, I
bring mine. I think that every card that's even considered to be put
into 50% of somebody's decks is very-very-powerful, and that's why I
wrote "uber-powerful".
> > Call it
> > "staple", if my word "uber-powerful" confuses you, but it's much
> > better than just "good". Dreams isn't "good", it's amazing and it
> > changes the whole game!
>
> Dreams doesn't change the whole game. It generates some pool or puts
> some cards in your hand.
It generates pool, it generates transfers, it increases your hand for
the whole turn, and it doesn't require specific clan or something.
It's so popular that it really changes the whole game.
> > Same about Villein and Wider View.
> > I would put Wider View into every deck that has at least 3 copies of
> > some vampire to replace the second copy with something else. I would
> > put it into every deck having a great difference in capacity to avoid
> > "all heavies" or "all weenies" situations.
>
> Great! Good luck with that. How many are going in each deck? What are
> you taking out to make room for them?
Both answers depend on the deck. If the deck utterly needs a good
crypt draw, it can have 3-5 Wider Views. If it just wants to get the
fourth vamp without spending 4 transfers and a pool, there can be just
1-2. It's much better to spend 1 pool and a trifle and then get 2 pool
than just spend 1 pool :)
> > 3-4 will be enough, and sometimes even too much. I certainly have no
> > guarantee to draw them in time, but they still impove my chances to
> > get a vampire with Dominate. And I can avoid spoiling my crypt with
> > extra Dom-vampires to increase the chances of getting one. This is
> > huge.
>
> I suspect it is less huge than you seem to think it is.
As usual, time will tell.
orianice
I like this extension very much, I really do (cap8 DoC I have been
dreaming that since bloodlines came out)
just one point I would like to underline, in my opinion, and people
can agree or disagree with that I have no problem.
LSJ, bloodlines are very specific clans and there is not one day
without people who asks cards to make them balance to other clans.
I am wondering why the best bloodline [I say best in terms of
tournament results] that is to say Ahriman [for reckon, 3GW14 french
national championship entrance 2010, 2GW10 european championship
entrance 2006, and many more] would get such a powerful card as
"blessing of the beast". Is there any designer intent behind that? Why
would you not give a good card like that to a bloodline that has
troubles achieve coherence and results such as samedis... (good job on
strengthening !salubri though)
Yours faithfully TTC
Ector
James Coupe wrote:
> suoli <suolir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Ector already admitted that "uber" was a bad choice of words and gave
> >a very good explanation of why he mistakenly used it. Why do you keep
> >rubbing it in?
>
> Because despite that, he told us how HUGE numbers of decks are going to
> be improved by it, just like he needed huge quantities of Victor
> Pelletier. Retracting a word and then just replacing it with an equally
> dumb, equally hyperbolic, equally unfounded response is dumb.
Isn't Victor Pelletier popular? Wasn't it used in 14 tournament-
winning decks for one year, two of them even sporting 4 copies? I
managed to get my 4 copies only for a high price, as NOBODY WANTED TO
TRADE. Where was the 'mistake' you're talking about?
Actually, it's your behaviour looks dumb here.
> It would be *really* nice if Ector would do us all a favour and learn
> from his mistakes. Instead, he just keeps making them, again and again
> and again and again and again and again. Why does he keep doing so?
>
Because "he" never admits he's wrong until somebody proves that :) As
most of the normal people do.
Frederick Scott
news:0843b548-630a-4a08...@d27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
I was just pointing out that to get your two pool back (your original
seed plus your one pool profit), you'd have to forgo the profit from
Art Museum (Arcane Library, Nosferatu Kingdom, etc.) for that turn.
Actually, though, now that I think about it, you just tap the AL and
leave the profit on the uncontrolled vampire for a turn, then transfer
it back the next turn. So never mind...
Fred
James Coupe
>Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> > Chris Berger said: "I would probably use this in ~50% of my decks". I
>> > will go even further, as I like to play decks with several copies of
>> > good vampires. And you're trying to say that a card that's going to
>> > get into half of somebody's decks or more, is just "good"???
>>
>> Yes. And I said in the next message "I have, like, 2 or 3 decks in 12
>> already built that it would be useful in." Why aren't you quoting
>> *that* as supporting evidence?
>>
>> And I suspect he was overstating the case as well.
>Why should I use *your* words as an argument? We have a discussion
>here. You have your opinion, I have mine. You bring your arguments, I
>bring mine. I think that every card that's even considered to be put
>into 50% of somebody's decks is very-very-powerful, and that's why I
>wrote "uber-powerful".
Not really, and certainly not without more information.
If I play a lot of Auspex walls, with mixed Toreador guns, with Tremere
and Thaumaturgy, with weenie vampires, with Anneke and an Assault Rifle
as a huge monster and so on, then when Telepathic Tracking was printed,
it would probably be a good card for many of my decks. Certainly, I'd
probably consider it for a lot of them, and maybe include it quite a
few.
Is Telepathic Tracking an uber-powerful card? No, it's just that its
utility is skewed by my deck-building preferences and, presumably, my
meta-game.
Similarly, a player who likes rush combat is going to consider
Dragonbound for quite a lot of their decks.
That one person thinks it's useful for a lot of their decks often says a
lot more about their decks than it does about the card.
Peter D Bakija
> Time will tell. But, honestly, I expected something better for a not-
> much-popular Discipline.
It is a good card that supliments solid defense strategies for a
wallish kind of clan. And hoses the Imbued. All good.
> Peter, I usually have my opinion which is ALWAYS completely debatable.
> I'm not a champion, a guru, an overmind or something like that, and I
> can be wrong. That's indicated by "IMHO". I simply hate to write long
> clauses like "It seems to me..." or "I'm not completely sure, but it
> looks like..." thousand times.
You don't need to. But when you start out with "IMHO" and then post
things that are not remotely humble opinions, someone is likely going
to mention that. You could have just said "THN cards blow" and that
would have been fine. I was just pointing out what was likely
unintentional irony in your statement. As it was funny.
> Who said it's a bad ability?
You said "he is a horrible vampire" (I belive the actual phrase was
"simply unplayable"). I said "he seems perfectly reasonable". You went
to to explain how a Samedi with built in rush is bad, as THN combat is
horrible. I went on to explain how built in rush is always a good
ability. And here we are.
> The need to pay for it - that's bad.
> Nothing comes for free. Do you remember "vampire points" or CAC
> tournaments? :) I was just trying to say that I'd prefer something
> better for my "points".
Sure. But built in rush in general, and a Samedi with built in rush in
particular, is good.
> Rush, on the other hand, can be dangerous, and generally requires
> additional cards. Considering the fact that THN combat cards aren't
> very good, and the most popular NEC combat card is Spiritual
> Intervention, I'd say that inbuilt rush is almost "wasted vampire
> points" here.
And I'd say you are wildly off base with that assessment. The Samedi
can fight--they have For and Thn, both of which are, at the very
least, better for fighting than not. Are they as goot at fighting as,
say, the Brujah? Of course not. But they have in one of their main
disciplines a lot of combat cards. That aren't great, no (well, again,
the new Groaning Corpse is fantastic), but are playable. If you have a
deck with the Samedi. And you have some combat cards in there. A guy
with built in rush is *always* going to be worth playing. If you use
him to rush and kill someone once per game, he is worth it. Are people
going to be building all Samedi permarush decks out of him? Probably
not. But if you are using the Samedi, and you are using some THN
combat cards (or heck, guns), a guy with built in rush is going to be
a welcome addition.
> Sure. But still, it will make a huge impact on the game. It will
> provide a great boost to the decks that CARE about their crypt
> draw :)
I don't think that is as big of an impact as you are making out. Which
is where the crux of the issue lies. It will be a card that is
certainly helpful in a situation where you really want to get the
right vampires in play, yes. But this isn't going to make the game
flip over or anything. It just means that some decks that were
previously somewhat random in their ability to function will be less
random. I'll point out that there has been a master card in the game
that lets you go get a specific vampire out of your crypt since, like,
1995. And it rarely sees play. As it is bad. But the effect is strong
if you want a specific vampire. If getting a specific vampire in play
was as good as you seem to make it out, this card would have seen a
lot more play over the years, bad or no.
> Why should I use *your* words as an argument? We have a discussion
> here. You have your opinion, I have mine. You bring your arguments, I
> bring mine. I think that every card that's even considered to be put
> into 50% of somebody's decks is very-very-powerful, and that's why I
> wrote "uber-powerful".
'Cause you were quoting a random assessment as proof of your case,
when that random assessment was no more valid than any other random
assessment. It is dubious defense.
And I think your assessment of "powerful" is off here. Lots of cards
go in 50% of someone's decks (On the Qui Vive, Vessel). That aren't
super powerful. Just good and utilitarian. Vessel (or Blood Doll) is
good and utilitarian. And shows up a lot as a result. Same with Wake
and on the Qui Vive (as other good examples). These cards are not
super powerful. They are just good. And fit in a lot of decks as they
are generically useful. Wider View is god, but less likely to be
useful (and by "useful" I mean "provide enough of a tangible benefit
to be worth the effort to include" as opposed to "it can be put in a
deck, put in play, and not have to be discarded, and have some sort of
effect that is probably beneficial") for any particular deck than
Vessel or On the Qui Vive.
Decks that can benefit from it will do so. Most decks can't really and
as a result won't.
> It generates pool, it generates transfers, it increases your hand for
> the whole turn, and it doesn't require specific clan or something.
> It's so popular that it really changes the whole game.
Yeah, see, this is where I think your argumentitive style breaks down.
Dreams is a good card. It sees a lot of play. People like it and use
it a lot. It does not provide anything that something else can't do
(increased hand size, pool generation, extra transfers). It existing
did not "change the game" in any appreciable way. It is good. It gets
use. But it isn't doing anything particularly revolutionary. Wider
View is vastly more exciting, in terms of providing new capabilities
to the game, than Dreams is. And I don't see Wider View as "changing
the game" either. It is handy. It'll see play. It'll help decks that
can benefit from it. Just like any other good new card.
> Both answers depend on the deck. If the deck utterly needs a good
> crypt draw, it can have 3-5 Wider Views. If it just wants to get the
> fourth vamp without spending 4 transfers and a pool, there can be just
> 1-2. It's much better to spend 1 pool and a trifle and then get 2 pool
> than just spend 1 pool :)
See, I don't know that it is, as it takes up a master slot and card
play. Yes, you could put a Wider View in any deck ever, and play it
just to get a vampire--but is this going to benefit you more than even
a Vessel? Probably not. A Vessel (also a trifle) is likely going to
generate you more pool in the long run (and possibly deny your prey
some pool). And you'll end up far more ahead by simply playing a
Vessel than a Wider View unless you really need the crypt cycling.
Which is why I think your assessment of the card is off--yes, decks
that really want to crypt cycle to get the exact right guys are going
to really benefit from this card. But most decks are going to be
better off with some other card in that master slot, if even only a
Vessel.
> As usual, time will tell.
True enough.
-Peter
librarian
Orian, I would consider starting a new thread with this
post, and put LSJ's initials in the subject line.
best -
chris
Meej
> I am wondering why the best bloodline [I say best in terms of
> tournament results] that is to say Ahriman [for reckon, 3GW14 french
> national championship entrance 2010, 2GW10 european championship
> entrance 2006, and many more] would get such a powerful card as
> "blessing of the beast".
Seriously? Commit (n) Spiritus cards that are in your hand, right
now, when you play this master that you found room for in your deck
somehow, to *only* be playable by that particular Ahrimane, and in
return get to draw (n) new cards? That strikes you as powerful enough
to comment on?
Decent, sure. But powerful? It's not one of the ones that stood out
to me, looking over the set. If you're playing a star-Ahrimane deck,
it's solid, but then how many Spiritus cards is that getting you?
- D.J., wondering what he's not seeing.
James Coupe
>James Coupe wrote:
>> suoli <suolir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Ector already admitted that "uber" was a bad choice of words and gave
>> >a very good explanation of why he mistakenly used it. Why do you keep
>> >rubbing it in?
>>
>> Because despite that, he told us how HUGE numbers of decks are going to
>> be improved by it, just like he needed huge quantities of Victor
>> Pelletier. Retracting a word and then just replacing it with an equally
>> dumb, equally hyperbolic, equally unfounded response is dumb.
>Isn't Victor Pelletier popular? Wasn't it used in 14 tournament-
>winning decks for one year, two of them even sporting 4 copies?
Sure. This backs up what *everyone else* said. Good, useful, not
overpowered, not necessary to win. Could be used in particular decks,
just like multiple War Ghouls. Still not needed to win.
You told us how you needed 50 copies and how you'd have to spend $1000
buying them, when you didn't need 50 copies. You told us how you
couldn't live without him - you seriously told us that. Your posts are
there for everyone to see.
> I
>managed to get my 4 copies only for a high price, as NOBODY WANTED TO
>TRADE. Where was the 'mistake' you're talking about?
That you claimed you needed 50 copies. Actually, you only got 4. And
you didn't even need those 4, as the many other decks winning
tournaments reveal.
Needed: 50-70. Acquired: 4. Worlds ended: 0.
Kevin Walsh
> Seriously? Commit (n) Spiritus cards that are in your hand, right
> now, when you play this master that you found room for in your deck
> somehow, to *only* be playable by that particular Ahrimane, and in
> return get to draw (n) new cards? That strikes you as powerful enough
> to comment on?
>
the Hound, Nose of the Hound, (non-combat card), (non-combat card),
(non-combat card), (non-combat card) often enough that I would
consider playing it. But for me, the Spiritus card that stands out is
Ears of the Hare.
Kevin Walsh
Raziel
Harbringers of Skulls and Nagaraja have worse problems than Samed ...
wait, those guys have FOR NEC OBF THN ? Ok, HoS and N are bit better,
but all of them share one not very good discipline - necromancy. Which
could use some boost possibly. Or at least some combo discipline card
that require AUS NEC or FOR NEC.
Peter D Bakija
> I've certainly been stuck with hands like Nose of the Hound, Nose of
> the Hound, Nose of the Hound, (non-combat card), (non-combat card),
> (non-combat card), (non-combat card) often enough that I would
> consider playing it. But for me, the Spiritus card that stands out is
> Ears of the Hare.
Oh, it's certainly a handy card. But I think what DJ is reacting to is
the assertion that it is somehow super (over?) powered.
-Peter
Meej
Oh, I'd consider *playing* it, and I see the utility, totally. It'd
probably show up, at least a few copies, in any deck I build packing a
bunch of Spiritus. But yeah, as far as Ahrimanes/Spiritus cards go,
it's not one that jumps out at me as "whoa, powerful."
- D.J.
Kushiel
> DEMOLISH ALL UNDERSTANDING OF THE GAME!
Man oh man, do I want that on a t-shirt. Is your sweatshop currently
in session, Peter?
John Eno
Peter D Bakija
Ooh! Come somewhat warmer weather, the sweatshop will be in business!
-Peter
Kushiel
> Ooh! Come somewhat warmer weather, the sweatshop will be in business!
Excellent. Drop me a private line once we can make this happen.
John Eno
Ector
Just imagine you're buying a car, and one of the cars you consider
buying has a feature that you're very unlikely to use. Will you argue
that a car with that feature (which definitely takes some place and
costs something) is better than a car without it? :)
I still think that the vampire is bad because it's very difficult to
use effectively enough to make it worth its price. The inbuilt rush
may help occasionally, but "occasionally" is not enough.
>
> And I think your assessment of "powerful" is off here. Lots of cards
> go in 50% of someone's decks (On the Qui Vive, Vessel). That aren't
> super powerful. Just good and utilitarian. Vessel (or Blood Doll) is
> good and utilitarian. And shows up a lot as a result. Same with Wake
> and on the Qui Vive (as other good examples). These cards are not
> super powerful. They are just good. And fit in a lot of decks as they
> are generically useful. Wider View is god, but less likely to be
> useful (and by "useful" I mean "provide enough of a tangible benefit
> to be worth the effort to include" as opposed to "it can be put in a
> deck, put in play, and not have to be discarded, and have some sort of
> effect that is probably beneficial") for any particular deck than
> Vessel or On the Qui Vive.
>
> Decks that can benefit from it will do so. Most decks can't really and
> as a result won't.
I strongly disagree that "most decks can't benefit" from Wider View.
On the contrary, most decks can. Comparing to On the Que Vive isn't
"fair", since the latter isn't a master card, but comparing to Vessel
is. Let's compare, then.
1). Vessel can burn a Blood Doll. This is great, but nowadays people
are playing much less Blood Dolls due to Villeins and Vessels, so you
can't be sure to see them played by your prey. But when it works, it's
good.
2). Vessel can move one blood from your vampire to your pool per turn,
acting as a pool gain source. Wider View is worse in a long run, but
it's better as "emergency source", providing +1 pool on the same turn.
Vessel net cost is -1 pool on the turn you play it, 0 pool on the next
turn and +1 pool only two turns after.
3). Vessel can refill blood on your vampire. Wider View cannot.
4). Wider View can get you the "better" vampire than those you have.
This can be extremely important if you direly need this vampire,
somewhat important if you need just a host for Governs instead of
another copy of some fatty, good bonus if you just need a fourth
vampire to influence, or unimportant al all.
5). Sooner or later, Wider View will provide you +1 pool. For free, as
you wouldn't use those transfers anyway. Not for blood of your
vampire.
I'd say that there are decks where Wider View is much more valuable
than Vessel, and there are decks where Vessels are better. But even
the latter decks will probably find 1-2 slots for Wider View.
> > It generates pool, it generates transfers, it increases your hand for
> > the whole turn, and it doesn't require specific clan or something.
> > It's so popular that it really changes the whole game.
>
> Yeah, see, this is where I think your argumentitive style breaks down.
> Dreams is a good card. It sees a lot of play. People like it and use
> it a lot. It does not provide anything that something else can't do
> (increased hand size, pool generation, extra transfers). It existing
> did not "change the game" in any appreciable way. It is good. It gets
> use. But it isn't doing anything particularly revolutionary. Wider
> View is vastly more exciting, in terms of providing new capabilities
> to the game, than Dreams is. And I don't see Wider View as "changing
> the game" either. It is handy. It'll see play. It'll help decks that
> can benefit from it. Just like any other good new card.
IMHO, every card that's going to appear in vast amount of decks
changes the game.
Thus, the game was changed with Villein and Vessel. Now it will be
changed again with Wider View.
Ector
You seem to remember my words very well, but only SEEM TO. Because I
actually said that our *playgroup* needs 50-70 copies, not myself.
We've got something about 25 copies, and that's not enough. There are
many players here who would like to get more, but they cannot. That
isn't going to destroy the world, right, but that's obviously bad.
Such good and popular vamps as Victor shouldn't be promos.
If you tried to demonstrate my sins or incompetence here, you've
failed.
James Coupe
>You seem to remember my words very well, but only SEEM TO.
The bit about how you were going to die? I assume you must have got
better. The wonders of medical science, eh?
>Because I
>actually said that our *playgroup* needs 50-70 copies, not myself.
It's usually pretty unlikely that an entire playgroup turns up wanting
to play a Victor Pelletier deck at a casual session or a tournament.
You know what people do? They lend a friend their cards. They play
with proxies (in casual environments). Doing friendly, helpful things
like this is good! It fosters community spirit, it helps your friends,
it lets you play against deck types. Loan someone a whole deck - it's
fun to play around with someone else's design, and see it from the other
side.
I'd be genuinely surprised if any one-day tournament in V:TES history
had 70 copies of Victor used, even if you added up *everyone's* deck.
And you still - somehow - don't understand the difference between "need"
and "want". I *want* more War Ghouls. I *want* more Twilight
Rebellion. I would really like a few more copies of Fee Stakes, because
I didn't buy much Anarchs. I don't *need* them. I just play a
different deck instead.
In the days of Return to Innocence and Tomb of Rameses (and possibly
Legacy of Pander) destroying tables, it was certainly arguable that I
either needed those cards or needed to craft a deck specifically to
withstand those cards.
There is no similar imbalance in the game such that playing Victor will
guarantee you success against people who choose not to play him. You can
just as easily play an Obf/Dem stealth-bleed deck, or a weenie vote
deck, or a Stanislava dom/pro deck, or Giovanni power-bleed, or Ravnos
Week of Nightmares, or No Secrets From Tsunda, or Lasombra breed-boon,
or Enkidu star vampire, or Arika/Queen Anne, or Assamite Loss bleed
(with Quietus backup), or Abombwe wall, or weenie Auspex, or Imbued, or
Tzimisce War Ghoul, or Free States Rant/Temptation, or Gangrel with
Garou, or Speed Nephandus, or Matthias Spirit Marionette, or... All of
these have the potential to do really very well indeed.
If you don't have the cards for any of those, play any of the hundreds
of other decks that can be contructed that don't *need* Victor.
James Coupe
>Just imagine you're buying a car, and one of the cars you consider
>buying has a feature that you're very unlikely to use. Will you argue
>that a car with that feature (which definitely takes some place and
>costs something) is better than a car without it? :)
You need to distinguish between "that you're very unlikely to use" and
"than everyone is very unlikely to use".
I'm unlikely to buy a car that has special consideration for installing
baby seats. It's unlikely that such a car would appeal to me, if there
was a substantial price differential. All things being equal, I'll buy
the cheaper car without it.
That is very, very different from saying that the car is or isn't better
than another car. Other people may well use it, and value it. Having
that variety can be helpful.
>I still think that the vampire is bad because it's very difficult to
>use effectively enough to make it worth its price. The inbuilt rush
>may help occasionally, but "occasionally" is not enough.
You could actually use him as a "star" vampire for a deck (and add Wider
View to help out).
With Obfuscate, he's able to disguise out a large weapon. Or using
Thanatosis, he can use Hag's Wrinkles to equip it and untap (at 2
stealth). Rush vampire, add Olid Loa and you have near-guaranteed long-
range combat. Potentially decent short-chain combat - perma-weapon,
perma-rush, play Olid Loa on the combat. Possible Ashes to Ashes as
defence and blood gain. With his inferior Auspex, he could play Aura
Reading. A potentially quite handy setup.
Will he be great in every Samedi deck? Unlikely. You don't generally
want vampires to be great in every deck, though. You want the players
to have interesting choices. When every crypt turns into the same
crypt, things get boring.
For players who like exploring unusual strategies (of which you will
always have some), it's also important to have some cards available that
are good but not mainstream. I'm not talking about *bad* cards, like
Eyes of the Dead, but unusual cards - like making a Ventrue infernal
with Daimoinon, or a couple of Setites with Dementation.
>5). Sooner or later, Wider View will provide you +1 pool. For free, as
>you wouldn't use those transfers anyway. Not for blood of your
>vampire.
However, in the time before you burn it, Wider View means you're 1 pool
down. That's 1 pool closer to death, 1 pool closer to Foreshadowing
Destruction hitting superior.
If you've stacked your deck with several, you might even draw it while
you have one in play. Do you then go 2 pool down now, to go 2 pool up
later? Not the nicest decision.
Interestingly, this reasonably fine-grained pool-fiddling might make it
interesting for Parity Shift players. Play them to drop your pool, and
burn them when you're unconcerned (or in trouble).
>IMHO, every card that's going to appear in vast amount of decks
>changes the game.
You have yet to demonstrate "vast amount of decks" for Wider View.
Being able to generate a potentially massive amount of pool in one go
(Tap, Villein, possibly Tribute, possibly Grooming), even at the cost of
your vampires' blood, is difficult to sacrifice. Hand-cycling cards
(such as the Barrens and Dreams) can be immensely useful, allowing you
to lunge at the right time. Pentex Subversion and Direct Intervention
are immense cards. Blood Doll and Vessel are both great. What are you
going to sacrifice?
It's really not clear that, even for decks where Wider View is a strong
candidate for inclusion, it's going to oust other master cards.
orianice
It is a master that creates a second hand, for an intercept already
very powerful deck. It is like, let's say, a super visit from the
capucin because you can still play with your normal hand and redraw
cards in addition of the stuck cards that will be probably 4 cards +.
Raziel
It's very solid and will see some play. As in next gen ahrimane deck,
there will be even more spiritus cards. Plus, it's great way to store
those vulture's buffets and EF, not to mention wakes from spiritus,
falcon's eyes and the new card that grant +2 intercept.