Re: Sonja Blue discussion - still fighting...
LSJ
> You know... I know a clarify has been said... but I think I'd like to
> agrue this a bit more if you don't mind. :)
>
> Why is uncontrolled region "out of play"?
For the same reason that your hand "region" is out of play.
The hand is to the library what the uncontrolled region is to the crypt.
That is, the uncontrolled region is just your hand of crypt cards.
The staging area between the crypt and "in play". The only
reason your crypt cards in "hand" are in a separate region rather
than simply part of your hand is because of the way they accumulate
counters in the influence phase[*].
Uncontrolled vampires do not contest vampires in play, for example,
although two of the same unique vampire in play will contest each
other. [1.5.1] [1.5.6] [4.1] [11]
And two vampires in play with the same title will contest the
titles. [4.2]
If uncontrolled vampires were "in play", then they'd contest per
[4.1] and [4.2].
And the scarce penalty counts vampire in play -- pretty painful
if the uncontrolled ones were counted as well (not to mention
the difficulty in counting the ones in your opponents' uncontrolled
region). [11]
See also Chain of Command (uncontrolled -> in play, cannot choose
any already in play), Contract (can only choose an Assamite in
play), Dirty Contract (like Contract, but Samedi), Gather (Gangrel
in play), Goodnight Sweet Prince (Ravnos in play), Jimmy
Dunn (Jimmy in play), Sensory Deprivation (broken when the acting
vampire leaves play, such as with Banishment, and can be put on
any vampire in play), and Trumped-Up Charges (additional votes for
Red Listers in play).
> (Here are some thoughts/questions. Not necessarily relevant to
> question, but bring up interesting points.)
> - According to the rulebook (2.3), the "play area" consists of, Ready
> (controlled), Torpor (controlled), and Uncontrolled (face down). Note
> that it makes no mention of ash heap, crypt or discard pile.
That is indeed the play area. Also in the play area are the library
and the crypt and the ash heap (although they aren't in play -- and
they aren't in that figure since they aren't "regions", so they
aren't part of the two regions being described in that section).
> - The exact wording in the rulebook (several places) for influence
> phase when you have enough counters on a vampire is "into ready
> region", not "into play".
Since it has to distinguish between the ready and torpor segments
of "in play", this is natural.
But see 1.6.1.4, which specifically notes that "in play" means
controlled.
> - Banishment states "into uncontrolled region", not "out of play".
Since there are other out-of-play areas (library, crypt, ash heap,
and out of game), this is also natural. If it were merely shot out
of play in the general sense, it could not return to play without
explicit card text to accomplish that (see Descent Into Darkness,
which you cite below I see, for an example of the latter).
> Several other cards to the same. On the card it states "(minion cards
> are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled.)"
?
This is an argument for uncontrolled being a subset of out-of-play,
not against. The cards on the out-of-play minion are just as
out-of-play.
> Side note:
> Master cards btw are not minion cards. So they are face up on this "out
> of play" vampire?
Check current verbiage:
"Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out
of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled)."
> Extra tibits:
> There are only two cards with different "out of play" text. One is
> Mistrust and it talks about burning a vampire. (Note: Which goes to the
> ashheap, but I guess any cards on him are out of play but not in
> discard pile, since if he his brought back, the vamp gets to get back
> all the cards on him.)
The cards on the burned vampire would be burned (and out of play
in the ash heap). The cards are completely unlinked from the
burned vampire; they will not be retrieved if the vampire is
rescued from the ash heap.
If the scarce vampire was ready, then the cards are merely out
of play as long as he remains out of play (in the uncontrolled
region).
> The other is Descent into Darkness, which also puts any cards on him
> *out of play". Note how is Descent it says "any cards" but in
> banishment it says "minion cards".
Banishment says "any cards".
[*] Just guessing, since I wasn't involved in the original design;
but it seems an inescapable conclusion.
--
LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
adam....@ngc.com
agrue this a bit more if you don't mind. :)
Why is uncontrolled region "out of play"?
(Here are some thoughts/questions. Not necessarily relevant to
question, but bring up interesting points.)
- According to the rulebook (2.3), the "play area" consists of, Ready
(controlled), Torpor (controlled), and Uncontrolled (face down). Note
that it makes no mention of ash heap, crypt or discard pile.
- The exact wording in the rulebook (several places) for influence
phase when you have enough counters on a vampire is "into ready
region", not "into play".
- Banishment states "into uncontrolled region", not "out of play".
Several other cards to the same. On the card it states "(minion cards
are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled.)"
Side note:
Master cards btw are not minion cards. So they are face up on this "out
of play" vampire?
Extra tibits:
There are only two cards with different "out of play" text. One is
Mistrust and it talks about burning a vampire. (Note: Which goes to the
ashheap, but I guess any cards on him are out of play but not in
discard pile, since if he his brought back, the vamp gets to get back
all the cards on him.)
The other is Descent into Darkness, which also puts any cards on him
*out of play". Note how is Descent it says "any cards" but in
banishment it says "minion cards".
Okay, just like to keep this discussion open please... thanks.
adam....@ngc.com
the answers.
salem
scrawled:
>The hand is to the library what the uncontrolled region is to the crypt.
>That is, the uncontrolled region is just your hand of crypt cards.
>The staging area between the crypt and "in play". The only
>reason your crypt cards in "hand" are in a separate region rather
>than simply part of your hand is because of the way they accumulate
>counters in the influence phase[*].
>[*] Just guessing, since I wasn't involved in the original design;
>but it seems an inescapable conclusion.
i can just picture a bunch of original jyhad playtesters trying to
hold 7 library cards, 4 crypt cards, and a smattering of counters all
in their hands, and keeping the counters next to the correct vampires,
and then trying to actually play a card...tee hee.
salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)