Barbed Wire Project: Motivations Revealed

I've already got some watchers. Looks like it's going to sell for at
least $21. Happy day! :) And I have to say, some of those decks really
improved quite a bit for the feedback I got here.

Thanks everybody,
Preston

Derek Ray

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Jul 4, 2005, 2:01:57 PM7/4/05

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Preston wrote:
> I've already got some watchers. Looks like it's going to sell for at
> least $21. Happy day! :) And I have to say, some of those decks really
> improved quite a bit for the feedback I got here.

Are you really so broke that $21 seems like a good use of the hours upon
hours you've spent posting, responding, building and packaging these
decks... which are still inferior to even tier-2 constructed?

You haven't even come close to clearing minimum wage, dude :) Knock
yourself out.

- --
Derek

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Preston

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Jul 4, 2005, 2:16:32 PM7/4/05

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Derek,

Thanks for your blessing. No, I'm not going to be clearing massive
profits or anything. If this amounts to more than $20 a week for my
efforts I'l be amazed. It will be significantly less than minimum wage
for all the time I put into it. But it will allow me to more or less
break even in giving away decks in Dallas- which I do quite a bit of. I
mean, hey, I try to be nice, but I just try not to go to much in the
hole being nice.

As for the project itself, I have no idea where it goes. I was told to
just follow my passion and see what happens. Games are my passion. I
love playing them, testing them, sorting them. I am asking myself the
same question I'm sure a lot of other people are, How can I get paid
for this. I am investigating different avenues in regards to that-
opening games stores, doing mail order things, stuff like that. I can
tell you from working in game stores that clearing even minimum wage as
a game store owner is pretty hard and there is a lot of idle time. The
BWP idea has two purposes: one is to build a player base by lowering
the financial barrier to entry and allowing the newbie to compete or as
close to a even playing field as possible with the casual player and
the other is to find a way to repackage old collections of Jyhad cards
(which abound) more profitably. This would allow a game store owner,
for example, to put his slacker employees to work when there's no one
in the store.

I have no idea if it will work, but that's what I'm testing. Like I
told you Derek, I'm an empiricist. I test and measure and tweak and
quantify. I have a bachelors in Chemistry for Christ's sake it's what
I'm trained to do. I don't know if there is any money in repackaging
used collections into a form more usable by a new consumer but I intend
to find out.

Cheers,
Preston

Derek Ray

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Jul 4, 2005, 2:48:45 PM7/4/05

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Preston wrote:
> Derek,
>
> Thanks for your blessing. No, I'm not going to be clearing massive
> profits or anything. If this amounts to more than $20 a week for my
> efforts I'l be amazed. It will be significantly less than minimum wage

I would also be amazed. Good to know you're on the same page; if you
actually thought this was going to be a profitable endeavor and/or worth
your time, I'd probably be jaw-drop astonished. But hey, the world's
made up of all types.

> mean, hey, I try to be nice, but I just try not to go to much in the
> hole being nice.

Not sure how giving away a couple Magnums a pop is gonna put you in the
hole, but whatever, man.

> As for the project itself, I have no idea where it goes. I was told to
> just follow my passion and see what happens. Games are my passion. I
> love playing them, testing them, sorting them. I am asking myself the
> same question I'm sure a lot of other people are, How can I get paid
> for this. I am investigating different avenues in regards to that-

Sure. I asked myself that question a long time ago too. Then I changed
it to "How can I get paid enough at my day job that I can afford to
spend as much of my free time playing games, and as much money on games,
as I want?" That has worked a lot better for me; your mileage may vary.

> I have no idea if it will work, but that's what I'm testing. Like I
> told you Derek, I'm an empiricist. I test and measure and tweak and

Again, I don't think that word means what you hope it does.

"Empiricism \Em*pir"i*cism\, n.
1. The method or practice of an empiric; pursuit of knowledge by
observation and experiment. [1913 Webster]
2. Specifically, a practice of medicine founded on mere experience,
without the aid of science or a knowledge of principles; ignorant and
unscientific practice; charlatanry; quackery. [1913 Webster]"

There's a reason #1 needed specific clarification by #2 -- individual
experience alone is only valid for the concrete sciences, where 100ml of
a given compound is 100ml everywhere in the world (you mention
chemistry, which explains a lot). For an ever-changing CCG that draws
heavily on the human factor in gameplay... individual experience is
almost totally meaningless.

I've spent a lot of time talking to many players about V:TES theory,
some of the best players in the world among them. I'm not just drawing
on my own experience when I make my statements; I'm drawing on the
compiled, weighted opinions of everyone I've spoken to as well. I
figure there's no way any single person knows all there is to know about
this game, so all I can do is use that database and draw conclusions
from it.

> quantify. I have a bachelors in Chemistry for Christ's sake it's what
> I'm trained to do. I don't know if there is any money in repackaging
> used collections into a form more usable by a new consumer but I intend
> to find out.

Did you think to check and see if it had been tried before? (cf. above,
drawing on external experiences)

- --
Derek

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Preston

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Jul 4, 2005, 3:18:09 PM7/4/05

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Hey Derek,

I came to the same conclusion as you did about the day job. I have one
that pays my bills. But the world keeps telling me I need to follow my
passion instead of clock it in for the man day after day. I haven't
quite my day job or anything, but thanks for your concerns.

I look around and see what works and what doesn't. Here's what I've
found that does work:
1. Game Stores that are hybrid game store hybrid something else. There
used to be a chain of 5 stores or so in Houston, TX back when magic
took off. They were comic & card stores. Sports cards, comics and, as
the game developed, magic. They weren't there 5 years later though. I
can only assume the simultaneous slump in CCGs and comics did them in.

There is another store called The Bull Pen in Los Angeles. I'm pretty
good friends with the owner Mitch. He shared with me his sales figures.
He does 20% of his business in CCGs and the rest is sports card. He's a
sport's cards nut, so he can do that all day long. I'm not. Mitch told
me on no uncertain terms that a game store along is not going to work.
If I had any doubt, WotC seemed to prove that conclusively with their
purchase of Game Keeper in California.

2. Web sites that are collections of strategy. These have mixed
success. A lot of them will be an archive of strategy and deck lists
and sell advertising. The biggest was www.thedojo.com for MtG. I
believe they eventually closed up, but I haven't checked in a while.
The Lasombra's taken his sire resource and is going into the singles
market. That may work too.

3. Large event organizers. I was good friends with Scott Larabee back
in the hey day of MtG. Hell of a nice guy, He ran a MtG tournament
every Saturday in Costa Mesa California that easily got 100 people
playing multiple tournaments that day. He was so successful that WotC
employed him as ancillary events coordinator. After he left to go to
Seattle, the game store he ran folded up due to mismanagement even
though the tournament still runs to this day.

So, those are three things that work so far- web site resources, event
organization for popular CCGs, and hybrid game stores. So, in the back
of my mind, I keep trying to figure out how to put together a working
model of these things.

For the record I have given away a total of 7 BWP decks so far for a
total of 500 cards. I will probably give away that many each couple of
months over the next few months. The goal is to build a player base
here in Dallas. Maybe it won't work. Maybe people who are MtG or YugiOh
(or LARP) players just won't make the switch, but I'm having decent
success so far. I am actually going to try a BWP tournament at the
upcoming AnimeFest in Dallas. There is not VTES action there at all but
there is some MtG tournies, etc. I'm out to see if an advertised event
where you gave away the decks, taught the players how to play, and had
a tournament with all the new players if it would perhaps make someone
into an occasional VTES player who might come to our VTES games in
Dallas. If this works, then I can perhaps start to more aggressively
pursue the event coordinator route.

We'll have to see. Again, I have no idea where this thing might go. I'm
just out to find out and make note of the results. See if there's
something there that can be modeled and keep going. Hey, even if all I
do is transform a hobby into a profitable hobby I'll be more than
happy. Furthermore, since I'm doing this all in the public forum,
anyone else is free to try to replicate this if they want so we don't
have to collectively reinvent the wheel all the time.

As for you and your advice. Well, frankly Derek, you really didn't seem
to give me much that was relevant: you called me a lot of names; you
told me players would be better off without me; but I really never got
a whole lot of concrete, usable advice from you. And, hey, that's all
fine. I just still don't exactly know what it is you want from me.

Cheers,
Preston

Preston

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Jul 4, 2005, 5:13:53 PM7/4/05

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After I made my post I realized that I did not include the original
text. My apologies. Here is a repost with the relevant text cites. I
shall try harder.

Preston Jul 4, 3:18 pm show options
Hey Derek,

Cheers,
Preston

James Coupe

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Jul 4, 2005, 5:48:22 PM7/4/05

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In message <1120511633.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

Preston <preston...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Here is a repost with the relevant text cites.

Top-posting is also unhelpful.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Derek Ray

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Jul 4, 2005, 5:50:56 PM7/4/05

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Preston wrote:
> Hey Derek,
>
> I came to the same conclusion as you did about the day job. I have one
> that pays my bills. But the world keeps telling me I need to follow my
> passion instead of clock it in for the man day after day. I haven't
> quite my day job or anything, but thanks for your concerns.

If the world told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it too?

Or would you look over the railing first to see how many other people
tried (and failed) to miss the rocks at the bottom during the jump?

> me on no uncertain terms that a game store along is not going to work.
> If I had any doubt, WotC seemed to prove that conclusively with their
> purchase of Game Keeper in California.

In the correct location, with no competition, a lone game store can do
just fine. Good luck finding that location; my best guess is that
you'll have to move to Bumfuck, Nowhere to do it, and then all the
closet gamers will come out of the shadows and flock to the only store
around.

Downside of this: Eventually one of those gamers will get tired of
"clockin' it in for the man", open his own store, and you'll likely both
collapse, as there simply isn't going to be enough game dollar to
sustain both businesses. I'm inclined to agree with Mitch here.

> 2. Web sites that are collections of strategy. These have mixed
> success. A lot of them will be an archive of strategy and deck lists
> and sell advertising. The biggest was www.thedojo.com for MtG. I
> believe they eventually closed up, but I haven't checked in a while.

I have difficulty considering advertising-based business models for
something as ephemeral as a CCG to be anything which will bring
long-term success. The CCG's direction is out of your control, and once
it drops through the floor for whatever reason, so does your site. Teh
Intarweb (sic) is littered with such failures.

Much better to have such a thing as a side hobby, collect whatever you
can from it, and enjoy.

> The Lasombra's taken his sire resource and is going into the singles
> market. That may work too.

You misspelled "re-entering the singles market", above.

> 3. Large event organizers. I was good friends with Scott Larabee back
> in the hey day of MtG. Hell of a nice guy, He ran a MtG tournament
> every Saturday in Costa Mesa California that easily got 100 people
> playing multiple tournaments that day. He was so successful that WotC
> employed him as ancillary events coordinator. After he left to go to

In other words, he ended up clockin' it in for the man day to day?

Fortunately for him, he got a job for the man in the field he was
passionate about.

> success so far. I am actually going to try a BWP tournament at the
> upcoming AnimeFest in Dallas. There is not VTES action there at all but
> there is some MtG tournies, etc. I'm out to see if an advertised event
> where you gave away the decks, taught the players how to play, and had
> a tournament with all the new players if it would perhaps make someone
> into an occasional VTES player who might come to our VTES games in
> Dallas. If this works, then I can perhaps start to more aggressively
> pursue the event coordinator route.

You do realize that White Wolf recently hired someone as an Organized
Play Coordinator, don't you? =) And that he's been doing rather an
excellent job of things so far?

Did you know some intended-giveaway preconstructed demo decks were
printed up by WW at one point, too? =) I'm not sure whatever happened
to that idea. Maybe you could go find some. ;)

It's amusing how little actual research you've done on this subject. I
refer you to definition #2 under "empiricist", again, and my prior
message explaining why empiricism is only valid in the concrete
sciences, where individual experience will always match others'
experiences just by the nature of the beast.

> As for you and your advice. Well, frankly Derek, you really didn't seem
> to give me much that was relevant: you called me a lot of names; you
> told me players would be better off without me; but I really never got
> a whole lot of concrete, usable advice from you. And, hey, that's all
> fine. I just still don't exactly know what it is you want from me.

Aw, Preston, if you keep saying the sky is green, do you think it'll
suddenly become green? I'm sure you've got a lot of free time these
days; go back and read all the messages, carefully, and keep your
blankie handy in case you start crying just because I called you a
nanny-boo-boo. You might accidentally see some of the "concrete, usable
advice" you deny ever existed :)

- --
Derek

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Preston

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Jul 4, 2005, 6:00:46 PM7/4/05

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I have the hardest time making you happy.

James Coupe

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Jul 4, 2005, 6:16:16 PM7/4/05

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In message <1120514446....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,

Preston <preston...@hotmail.com> writes:
>I have the hardest time making you happy.

Spending two minutes reading a Usenet FAQ would prevent you making
trivial errors.

Colin McGuigan

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Jul 5, 2005, 12:02:36 AM7/5/05

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Preston wrote:
> I have the hardest time making you happy.
>
> James Coupe wrote:
>
>>In message <1120511633.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>Preston <preston...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>Here is a repost with the relevant text cites.
>>
>>Top-posting is also unhelpful.

A: Because it destroys the flow of conversation.

Q: Why is top posting bad?

--Colin McGuigan

XZealot

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Jul 5, 2005, 11:29:47 AM7/5/05

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Preston meet Ector.
Ector ...Preston.

Now the international commons pipeline is complete.

Now my plan for worldwide domination is complete.

Mwhahahah

--
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

Ector

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Jul 14, 2005, 12:29:14 PM7/14/05

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Hi XZealot,

I will gladly laugh with you if you explain me: what makes you laugh?
"Your plan of woldwide domination"? Man, you act like an Escaped Mental
Patient! :)

Yours,
Ector

quetzalcoatl

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Jul 14, 2005, 9:32:34 PM7/14/05

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<sarcasm>
I'm just rubbing my hands together waiting for my cut of the profits
since the !Ventrue deck was mine.
</sarcasm>

D

XZealot

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Jul 15, 2005, 9:13:07 AM7/15/05

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"Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:1121358554.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> XZealot wrote:
>> Preston meet Ector.
>> Ector ...Preston.
>>
>> Now the international commons pipeline is complete.
>>
>> Now my plan for worldwide domination is complete.
>>
>> Mwhahahah
>>
>>
>> --
>> Comments Welcome,
>> Norman S. Brown, Jr
>> XZealot
>> Archon of the Swamp
>
> Hi XZealot,
>
> I will gladly laugh with you if you explain me: what makes you laugh?

I thought it was funny that on one hand you, in another thread, were saying
how it was hard to buy commons and on the other hand that Preston was
selling decks that were almost entirely made out of commons.

> "Your plan of woldwide domination"? Man, you act like an Escaped Mental
> Patient! :)

It all starts with a very big fish....

Preston

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Jul 15, 2005, 11:12:16 AM7/15/05

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Sorry, didn't use that one.

quetzalcoatl

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Jul 15, 2005, 11:10:16 PM7/15/05

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Preston wrote:
> Sorry, didn't use that one.
>

Even if you did I wouldn't mind :) That was the whole <sarcasm> thing
:) Maybe should have said <jokingly> or something :)

D

Ector

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Jul 16, 2005, 12:46:12 AM7/16/05

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XZealot wrote:
> "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:1121358554.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> > I will gladly laugh with you if you explain me: what makes you laugh?

>
> I thought it was funny that on one hand you, in another thread, were saying
> how it was hard to buy commons and on the other hand that Preston was
> selling decks that were almost entirely made out of commons.
>

It's hard to get CERTAIN commons, not just random commons.

Yours,
Ector

XZealot

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Jul 16, 2005, 9:40:39 AM7/16/05

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"Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message

news:1121489172.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Well, Preston certainly has listed the commons available in his decks. So
you know for CERTAIN which CERTAIN commons you are CERTAINLY getting and now
you can stop being unCERTAIN about it.

It was CERTAINLY funny to me.

Ector

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Jul 16, 2005, 11:15:19 PM7/16/05

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XZealot wrote:
> "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:1121489172.5...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >
> > XZealot wrote:
> >> "Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
> >> news:1121358554.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> >> > I will gladly laugh with you if you explain me: what makes you laugh?
> >>
> >> I thought it was funny that on one hand you, in another thread, were
> >> saying
> >> how it was hard to buy commons and on the other hand that Preston was
> >> selling decks that were almost entirely made out of commons.
> >>
> > It's hard to get CERTAIN commons, not just random commons.
>
> Well, Preston certainly has listed the commons available in his decks. So
> you know for CERTAIN which CERTAIN commons you are CERTAINLY getting and now
> you can stop being unCERTAIN about it.
>
> It was CERTAINLY funny to me.
> --
> Comments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp

You can just assume that I don't need these CERTAIN commons.
Bwa-ha-ha-ha?...

Yours,
Ector

XZealot

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Jul 19, 2005, 6:16:38 PM7/19/05

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No assumption is CERTAIN. In fact, the only thing CERTAIN when you
assume is that it is CERTAIN to make an ass out of you and me
(ass-u-me). :)