Mercy for Seth + Target Retainer
Malone
superior and TR chooses to hit the retainer)?
1) MfS is placed on the retainer and the retainer takes 1 damage (or
is burned if mortal). After combat, MfS does not read the retainer as
a minion, so its text has no further effect.
2) Like (1), but the *minion* with MfS on its retainer is effected by
MfS text.
3) Like (1), but the retainer with MfS is effected by its text (takes
one damage during its untap).
4) The retainer takes one damage but the "put this card on the
opposing minion" portion is ignored.
5) TR cannot be played with MfS.
Mercy for Seth
[nec] Strike: put this card on the opposing minion. If this minion is
a mortal, he or she is burned. During his or her untap phase, the
minion with this card takes 1 unpreventable damage. The minion with
this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action.
[NEC] As above, and this strike inflicts 1 damage as well.
Target Retainer
Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
You may target a retainer on the opposing minion with this strike
(instead of the opposing minion). Or you may target him or her
directly as usual, but if any damage from this strike is successfully
inflicted, this strike inflicts an additional damage. The opposing
minion may discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card. A
minion may play only one aim each strike.
LSJ
> What happens if Mercy for Seth is played with Target Retainer (MfS at
> superior and TR chooses to hit the retainer)?
>
> 1) MfS is placed on the retainer and the retainer takes 1 damage (or
> is burned if mortal). After combat, MfS does not read the retainer as
> a minion, so its text has no further effect.
>
This.
The Lasombra
>What happens if Mercy for Seth is played with Target Retainer (MfS at
>superior and TR chooses to hit the retainer)?
The world implodes.
>4) The retainer takes one damage but the "put this card on the
>opposing minion" portion is ignored.
This one.
Mercy for Seth
[nec] Strike: put this card on the opposing minion. If this minion is
a mortal, he or she is burned. During his or her untap phase, the
minion with this card takes 1 unpreventable damage. The minion with
this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action.
[NEC] As above, and this strike inflicts 1 damage as well.
Target Retainer
Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
You may target a retainer on the opposing minion with this strike
(instead of the opposing minion). Or you may target him or her
directly as usual, but if any damage from this strike is successfully
inflicted, this strike inflicts an additional damage. The opposing
minion may discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card. A
minion may play only one aim each strike.
Carpe noctem.
The Lasombra
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Malone
> Malone wrote:
> > What happens if Mercy for Seth is played with Target Retainer (MfS at
> > superior and TR chooses to hit the retainer)?
>
> > 1) MfS is placed on the retainer and the retainer takes 1 damage (or
> > is burned if mortal). After combat, MfS does not read the retainer as
> > a minion, so its text has no further effect.
>
> This.
If said retainer were, say, a Wolf Companion on Demdemeh and she used
her special to turn it into an ally, would the MfS stay on it, and
begin to function?
LSJ
> On May 31, 2:02 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>> Malone wrote:
>>> What happens if Mercy for Seth is played with Target Retainer (MfS at
>>> superior and TR chooses to hit the retainer)?
>>> 1) MfS is placed on the retainer and the retainer takes 1 damage (or
>>> is burned if mortal). After combat, MfS does not read the retainer as
>>> a minion, so its text has no further effect.
>> This.
>
> If said retainer were, say, a Wolf Companion on Demdemeh and she used
> her special to turn it into an ally, would the MfS stay on it, and
> begin to function?
/blinks.
Why, yes. Yes it would.
I look forward to the tournament report that includes such an occurrence. :-)
Juggernaut1981
Corner-Case Question Scoreboard
Malone 1
The Rest of the World 0
jcrossn...@gmail.com
> >4) The retainer takes one damage but the "put this card on the
> >opposing minion" portion is ignored.
I would have thought something like this as well. Target: Retainer
never implies that the retainer in question should be treated as a
minion, so it strikes me as very weird that Mercy for Seth would go on
it. I would actually think that the combination would simply not be
allowed, since it asks you to do something you can't do, or so I would
have thought?
I'm curious as to why this interpretation is incorrect. LSJ?
This also now opens the question as to whether or not I can target a
retainer with some kind of off the wall strike that can't affect it at
all. Per the ruling given by LSJ in this thread, I could presumably
attempt to play Fast Hands or Coma on a retainer, with no effect. This
seems weird and wrong to me, given that the above strikes can't be
played against a minion without a weapon, or against an ally,
respectively. Why does Target: Retainer allow me to target a card that
can't be targeted, while other effects in the game do not?
Jesse
LSJ
> The Lasombra suggested that the following answer was correct:
>>> 4) The retainer takes one damage but the "put this card on the
>>> opposing minion" portion is ignored.
>
> I would have thought something like this as well. Target: Retainer
> never implies that the retainer in question should be treated as a
> minion, so it strikes me as very weird that Mercy for Seth would go on
> it. I would actually think that the combination would simply not be
> allowed, since it asks you to do something you can't do, or so I would
> have thought?
>
> I'm curious as to why this interpretation is incorrect. LSJ?
Because it says to target the retainer instead.
6.4.5: "Hand Strike. The default strike is a hand strike. When a minion strikes
with a hand strike at close range, he does an amount of damage equal to his
strength to the opposing minion."
> This also now opens the question as to whether or not I can target a
> retainer with some kind of off the wall strike that can't affect it at
> all. Per the ruling given by LSJ in this thread, I could presumably
> attempt to play Fast Hands
No.
> or Coma on a retainer, with no effect.
Sure, if the retainer is a vampire. In practice, no.
LSJ
> jcrossn...@gmail.com wrote:
>> or Coma on a retainer, with no effect.
>
> Sure, if the retainer is a vampire. In practice, no.
Ooh. Winged Second. OK, so it's doable in practice.
jcrossn...@gmail.com
> > This also now opens the question as to whether or not I can target a
> > retainer with some kind of off the wall strike that can't affect it at
> > all. Per the ruling given by LSJ in this thread, I could presumably
> > attempt to play Fast Hands
>
> No.
>
> > or Coma on a retainer, with no effect.
>
> Sure, if the retainer is a vampire. In practice, no.
I'm confused, so please help me. Mercy for Seth says to do a thing to
a minion, while Fast Hands says to do a thing to a weapon. Why can a
strike pretend that a retainer is a minion, but not a weapon?
Jesse
LSJ
Card text: "instead of the opposing minion"
jcrossn...@gmail.com
> > I'm confused, so please help me. Mercy for Seth says to do a thing to
> > a minion, while Fast Hands says to do a thing to a weapon. Why can a
> > strike pretend that a retainer is a minion, but not a weapon?
>
> Card text: "instead of the opposing minion"
Why does that not apply when the strike in question is Coma?
LSJ
It does, if the retainer is a vampire (as required by Coma), as I said.
jcrossn...@gmail.com
That's not what I mean. If the relevant portion of text is "instead of
the opposing minion", and Coma is directed at the opposing minion, why
can't Target: Retainer redirect it to the retainer? Retainers are no
less vampires than they are minions (except when they are, but let's
leave that aside).
Jesse
LSJ
A retainer treated as an instead-of-minion target doesn't automagically become
vampire, ally, Independnet, anarch, werewolf, or anything else. Just minion.
suolir...@gmail.com
Here's how I understand it.
Target: Retainer allows you to effectively replace the word "minion"
in "put this card on the opposing minion" with "retainer". It does
not, however, allow you to replace a specific subclass of "minion"
with "retainer".
Malone
I think it's not a subclass thing as much as it's a required trait
thing. Like, suppose a card said "Strike: opposing unique minion goes
to torpor and all copies of that minion in its controller's library,
ash heap and crypt are removed from the game." Then you could TR a
Tasha Morgan (unique) with this strike but not a Raven Spy (not
unique).
But I am often wrong...
Malone
Wait, that's dumb, change it to "Strike: burn opposing unique
minion." Only vampires can go to torpor, duh!
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
Okay from what I have read and understand from the card texts...
Target Retainer basically allows you to do at "close range" what you
could always do at Long Range (shoot the Raven Spy, Theft the Ghoul
Retainer, Sniper Rifle Tasha Morgan, etc). The target still needs to
meet the requirements for it to be "targeted" (Choose a X, S:Torpor
requires a vampire, etc) by the relevant strike. So you play T:R,
then check the requirements of the strike... if you can't play it then
you can always punch the retainer in the face for 1.
Examples follow...
Hand Strike + T:R = punch the Retainer
Coma + T:R = Target retainer with Coma. Coma checks to see if the
retainer is a vampire; not a vampire = can't use strike
Mercy for Seth + T:R = Target retainer with Mercy for Seth. MfS
checks to see if the target is an opposing minion (yes it is an
opposing minion because of T:R), is the target a Mortal (If Yes = Burn
target) and if not Mortal it deals 0@[nec] or 1 damage @[NEC]. Untap
phase MfS checks to see if it is on a minion (Retainer is NOT a
minion, MfS burns)
Sword of Nuln + T:R = Stab retainer with SoNuln, it is dealt
[strength] damage. SoNuln checks to see if target is a vampire
(Retainers are not vampires unless some bizarro retainer-vampire
exists... probably begins with Clan Impersonation... like all wierd
tricks), if so the target burns 2 blood for each point of damage and
if not then pay for damage normally.
Hopefully that will un-murky these T:R waters... of course LSJ feel
free to shoot this post down if it is horribly wrong.
The Lasombra
>Mercy for Seth + T:R = Target retainer with Mercy for Seth. MfS
>checks to see if the target is an opposing minion (yes it is an
>opposing minion because of T:R), is the target a Mortal (If Yes = Burn
>target) and if not Mortal it deals 0@[nec] or 1 damage @[NEC]. Untap
>phase MfS checks to see if it is on a minion (Retainer is NOT a
>minion, MfS burns)
Mercy for Seth does not burn unless an action to burn it is taken.
http://www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=1439
Mercy for Seth
[Combat]
[Necromancy]
[1 Blood]
[nec] Strike: put this card on the opposing minion. If this minion is
a mortal, he or she is burned. During his or her untap phase, the
minion with this card takes 1 unpreventable damage. The minion with
this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action.
[NEC] As above, and this strike inflicts 1 damage as well.
Artist(s): Steve Ellis
Set(s): KMW:C