Blind Spot and The Grandest Trick
Jozxyqk
"Choose a vampire you control and an ally or younger vampire controlled by
your prey. While the first chosen vampire is acting this turn, the other
chosen minion cannot block or play reaction cards."
Grandest Trick (relevant bit)
"This acting vampire is treated as a mortal ally for the duration of the
action"
During my master phase, I play Blind Spot, choosing my Marconius and
my prey's Keith Moody.
Marconius attempts to bleed with Computer Hacking, playing The Grandest
Trick.
Can Keith Moody play Deflection during this action?
(I think "yes" because Blind Spot requires your minion to be a
vampire while acting.)
LSJ
Yes, Blind Spot only works while the chosen "vampire" is acting.
OldFan
Uhm, Scott? I've got some problems with this, mainly because you are
trying to imply that "treated as" is the same as "is".
Just because a vampire gets "treated as" for some duration doesn't
make him STOP being a vampire - just like when you play some clan card
with Mata Hari. She doesn't STOP being Ravnos, it is just that, for
that one specific moment where a card is looking for a specific clan,
she says "Hey, look, I fulfill that clan requirement!".
When Blind Spot gets played during the Master phase, the Kiasyd chosen
(Marconius in this example), is a legal choice. For the rest of that
minion phase, the minion known as "Marconius" can't be messed with by
Keith Moody.
The fact that, when he happens to be acting, a card effect goes off
that says "treat Marconius as a mortal ally", doesn't make Blind Spot
stop working, because that assumes some kind of persistent card
memory, where Blind Spot is always checking whether the minion you
chose is a vampire, even from the ash heap.
Marconius was a legal target when Blind Spot was played in the Master
phase. That should be the end of the story - Keith Moody can't do
stuff while he is acting.
After all, for the text of Blind Spot, you could have written "choose
a non-ally/non-imbued minion you control", but instead you wrote
"choose a vampire you control" - presumably for concise-ness of text
and simple clarity.
Should Blind Spot REALLY have persistent card memory while even being
in the ash heap?
I'm honestly confused on this one, and I usually get 99.9% of your
rulings.
-AC
LSJ
> On Mar 2, 6:31 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Jozxyqk wrote:
>>> (I think "yes" because Blind Spot requires your minion to be a
>>> vampire while acting.)
>> Yes, Blind Spot only works while the chosen "vampire" is acting.
>
> Uhm, Scott? I've got some problems with this, mainly because you are
> trying to imply that "treated as" is the same as "is".
What else would it mean? To be treated as something by all effects in the game
is to be that thing for game purposes.
> Just because a vampire gets "treated as" for some duration doesn't
> make him STOP being a vampire - just like when you play some clan card
> with Mata Hari.
Mata Hari plays the card as a X. And so she is treated as a X by that card's
play effect. She "is" a X for that cards' play effect.
> She doesn't STOP being Ravnos,
For that card's play effect, she does. (Or rather, she simply never is a Ravnos
for that card's play effect).
> it is just that, for
> that one specific moment where a card is looking for a specific clan,
> she says "Hey, look, I fulfill that clan requirement!".
Not true. She plays it as a X. She is a X for that play effect.
> When Blind Spot gets played during the Master phase, the Kiasyd chosen
> (Marconius in this example), is a legal choice. For the rest of that
> minion phase, the minion known as "Marconius" can't be messed with by
> Keith Moody.
No. The vampire known as Marconius can't be messed with by Keith for any time
window in which the vampire known as Marconius is acting.
> The fact that, when he happens to be acting, a card effect goes off
> that says "treat Marconius as a mortal ally", doesn't make Blind Spot
> stop working, because that assumes some kind of persistent card
> memory, where Blind Spot is always checking whether the minion you
> chose is a vampire, even from the ash heap.
No. It assumes that the card text "While the first chosen vampire is acting this
turn, " is in effect.
> Marconius was a legal target when Blind Spot was played in the Master
> phase. That should be the end of the story - Keith Moody can't do
> stuff while he is acting.
You say it's the end of the story, but then you continue the story into a later
time (the time of "while the vampire is acting").
> After all, for the text of Blind Spot, you could have written "choose
> a non-ally/non-imbued minion you control", but instead you wrote
> "choose a vampire you control" - presumably for concise-ness of text
> and simple clarity.
Regardless of why the text was chosen, it is the text.
> Should Blind Spot REALLY have persistent card memory while even being
> in the ash heap?
Indeed, it would have no effect otherwise (if it didn't, for example, remember
which vampire was chosen and which minion was chosen).
Juggernaut1981
Think of it more like this...
Blind Spot works while the minion you control is still a vampire. If
any effect would make them be treated as anything other than a vampire
Blind Spot ceases to work.
When Mata Hari uses a card requiring a clan other than Ravnos, the
card treats Mata Hari as if she were for instance a Venture (for
Ventrue HQ) or a Brujah (Brujah Debate) or a !Tremere (for
Nephandus). Whenever that card looks to Mata Hari it only sees her as
the required clan, not as a Ravnos who part-times as a Ventrue/Brujah/!
Tremere. (Hence if you really wanted to, you could tap Mata Hari
instead of an "actual Brujah")
Same scenario for Blind Spot. The effect of Blind Spot is constantly
checking that your minion is still a vampire and that the "other"
minion is still a minion (and not for instance a Tzimisce who Bauble'd
themself into an Assault Rifle). Same goes for other cards like Jake
Washington "When in play this card represents an ally..." so when it
hits your ash heap you can't target it as an ally, because it is no
longer "in play" (no Posessions, etc, etc, etc).
Chris Berger
>
> Same scenario for Blind Spot. The effect of Blind Spot is constantly
> checking that your minion is still a vampire and that the "other"
> minion is still a minion (and not for instance a Tzimisce who Bauble'd
> themself into an Assault Rifle). Same goes for other cards like Jake
> Washington "When in play this card represents an ally..." so when it
> hits your ash heap you can't target it as an ally, because it is no
> longer "in play" (no Posessions, etc, etc, etc).
>
The scenario you describe is identical to the way that Torn Signpost
used to work (i.e. it says this vampire gets 2 str, and thus wouldn't
stick to the ally playing it), but IIRC, it was changed to the more-
sensible ruling that it's an instant (but lingering) effect that is
applied to the playing "vampire", even if he changes back to an ally.
AFAICT, Blind Spot is worded essentially the same, but works the
opposite way (i.e. the way you describe).
LSJ
Both work the same way.
Both are not put into play.
Both produce lingering effects, but effects from card play (not from
card-in-play, since neither is put in play).
The old ruling that affected Torn Signpost vis a vis allies distinguished
between instantaneous effects and lingering effects from card play. Such
distinction is no longer made, so instantaneous effects and lingering effects
are treated the same way.
Blind Spot is not played by a vampire. Nor is it played by an ally "as a
vampire", so the comparison to Torn Signpost stops at that point.
Blind Spot produces a continuing effect of "this vampire cannot be blocked by
that minion while this vampire is acting".
And Grandest Trick says that the minion playing it is treated as an ally instead
of a vampire (by all effects in the game, not solely by Grandest Trick).
henrik
> When Mata Hari uses a card requiring a clan other than Ravnos, the
> card treats Mata Hari as if she were for instance a Venture (for
> Ventrue HQ) or a Brujah (Brujah Debate) or a !Tremere (for
> Nephandus). Whenever that card looks to Mata Hari it only sees her as
> the required clan, not as a Ravnos who part-times as a Ventrue/Brujah/!
> Tremere. (Hence if you really wanted to, you could tap Mata Hari
> instead of an "actual Brujah")
Not sure if I'm reading your post right here, but it seems you're
saying that one choose Mata Hari to be tapped by Brujah Debate?
I'm fairly certain that you can't, since Mata Hari would only count as
a Brujah for playing the Brujah Debate and not for the effects given
to Brujahs while the card stayed in play.
> Same scenario for Blind Spot. The effect of Blind Spot is constantly
> checking that your minion is still a vampire and that the "other"
> minion is still a minion (and not for instance a Tzimisce who Bauble'd
> themself into an Assault Rifle).
And a minion who's been baubled into an Assault Rifle still counts as
a minion afaik.
James Coupe
>Not sure if I'm reading your post right here, but it seems you're
>saying that one choose Mata Hari to be tapped by Brujah Debate?
Correct, you can't. That's an effect from a card in play, so Mata Hari
stopped pretending to be a Brujah long before (assuming you wanted her
to pretend to be one when you played it, for some reason).
You can choose her to be the tapped Toreador in a Toreador Grand Ball,
though. (And then she never gets affected by the 'no untap' clause.)
You can choose her to be the unblockable Toreador if you like, but that
won't actually work.
>> Same scenario for Blind Spot. The effect of Blind Spot is constantly
>> checking that your minion is still a vampire and that the "other"
>> minion is still a minion (and not for instance a Tzimisce who Bauble'd
>> themself into an Assault Rifle).
>
>And a minion who's been baubled into an Assault Rifle still counts as
>a minion afaik.
Correct. Nothing about Bauble says "Treat this vampire as a..." or
similar.
Some vampire gets a piece of equipment. The Bauble-ing vampire gets
some significant disabilities from the Bauble action card, but the
vampire is still a vampire - just like an Anima Gathering vampire is
still a vampire, and a Sensory Depped vampire is still a vampire.
--
James Coupe
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