LotN misprint (LSJ)
agzocgud
Is Revelation of Ecstasy a misprint? My copies is missing the D-symbol
that the on-line card text has. WW homepage overrules the card, right?
LSJ
The (D) symbol is missing, yes.
But the omission doesn't affect the functionality of the card.
An action is directed (or not) based on the target(s) only, without regard to
the presence or absence of a (D) symbol.
agzocgud
experienced players). Is celestial harmony a d-action against all
players? Why does rampage (and others) have a D when chill of bolivion
does not? Don´t defend shitty card text or misses in proofreading!
John Flournoy
There is no such thing as a '(D) action against all players.'
Read the rules.
6.2.2.1 "Who may block".
"If the action targets another Methuselah (or something controlled by
another Methuselah), then the action is called directed, and the
Methuselah who is the target (or controls the target) of the action
may use her ready untapped minions to attempt to block the action. If
the action is not directed at another Methuselah (or at something
controlled by another Methuselah), then the action is called
undirected and can be blocked by the acting Methuselah's prey or
predator, with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. If one
attempt to block fails, another can be made as often as the blocking
Methuselah wishes. Once a Methuselah decides not to make any further
attempts to block, that decision is final. As a convenience, when a
card describes an action that is typically directed at another
Methuselah, the card's text will usually include a (D) symbol as a
reminder that the action is typically directed. Remember, political
actions are always undirected."
If this is still too hard for you, here's the short version:
1) If it targets one and only one other Methuselah (or cards
controlled by one and only one other Methuselah), the action is
directed, and only that Methuselah may block.
2) If not (either because it targets only you, only your controlled
cards, or multiple Methuselahs, or cards controlled by multiple
methuselahs), it's undirected (and predator and prey can block as
normal.)
3) The (D) symbol is reminder text, and the lack or presence of it
doesn't override 1) or 2).
> This is still confusing (and could have fooled anybody but the most
> experienced players).
Inexperienced players should start learning the game by reading the
rulebook, which is explicitly clear about this issue.
> Is celestial harmony a d-action against all players?
No. At inferior, it is a directed action against one player. At
superior, it targets multiple methuselahs (all) and thus switches to
being undirected (which is why the inferior gets the (D) reminder text
and the superior does not.)
> Why does rampage (and others) have a D when chill of bolivion
does not?
Rampage probably shouldn't have had the (D) action in the first place,
since it is not always directed (when it targets your own location.)
Note that the inclusion of a (D) on Rampage (and many other cards) is
a holdover from the very first edition/expansions, when (D) symbols
were confusingly applied all over the place.
Chill of Oblivion is sometimes directed, sometimes not (for the same
reason) and thus a (D) would have given people the wrong impression,
so it was omitted.
> Don´t defend shitty card text or misses in proofreading!
Sure. Rampage was shitty card text, from 1994.
However, the omission of (D) symbols from any current cards is not a
proofreading 'miss', as no cards whatsoever either need or lose
functionality by the omission of a (D) - whether or not a card has a
(D), the basic rulebook is explicitly clear both as to what the rule
is and that the (D) is meaningless from a rules perspective.
-John Flournoy
bwross
> Rampage probably shouldn't have had the (D) action in the first place,
> since it is not always directed (when it targets your own location.)
> Note that the inclusion of a (D) on Rampage (and many other cards) is
> a holdover from the very first edition/expansions, when (D) symbols
> were confusingly applied all over the place.
Nope. The reason Rampage has a (D) is because the standard typical
use is against an opponent's location. Using it on your own location
is extremely rare. Therefore, it gets the (D) to remind people that
it's typically directed.
> Chill of Oblivion is sometimes directed, sometimes not (for the same
> reason) and thus a (D) would have given people the wrong impression, so it was omitted.
Chill of Oblivion is typically used on one's own vampires as an
undirected action. Using it on other people's vampires is possible
because the card text doesn't prevent that. But the standard typical
use is the undirected one, therefore no (D).
This is pretty standard across the cards now. One's that are only (D)
actions or typically (D) actions get the symbol, otherwise it's left
off (even if directed uses are possible).
It's really a judgment call at times as to what it should be... for
example, Shell Break has the (D) symbol, but personally I'd be playing
that card to slap it on my minions like Leonardo (making it a Catch 22
as to whether to block his actions). Temptation is another example.
Brent Ross
agzocgud
recommendations and hints how we should play the cards? Shadow twin is
another example with a d-symbol. Is that to confuse players not to do
1 damage on a Charnas the Imp or a swarm? And in 13 years, the card
text on rampage should have changed...
Wookie813
No, it is to remind players that it can target minions and retainers
controlled by other players. THE RULEBOOK STATES THIS.
Read. The. Rules.
agzocgud
I´m not discussing the rules. I´m discussing the text on the cards.
Wookie813
Which is the crux of the problem. Card text only takes precedence when
it specifically overrides the rules (which is also clearly stated in
the rules). Nothing you are talking about does this. Let it go.
bwross
> recommendations and hints how we should play the cards?
The card text is consistent... the (D) symbol is intentionally
ignorable, the rule book even says so:
"As a convenience, when a card describes an action that is typically
directed at another Methuselah, the card's text will usually include a
(D) symbol as a reminder that the action is typically directed."
So you should never use the (D) symbol to judge anything... it's just
a reminder, not a rule bearing icon.
> Shadow twin is
> another example with a d-symbol. Is that to confuse players not to do
> 1 damage on a Charnas the Imp or a swarm?
Since Shadow Twin is 99.999% of the time used on someone else's
minion, the (D) is completely appropriate. Knowing that the (D)
symbol doesn't have anything to do with limiting targeting is pretty
basic to understanding the game. Temptation goes a long way to
reminding people of that because it's used undirected all the time.
> And in 13 years, the card
> text on rampage should have changed...
Why? It's exactly what it should be for what it does and is probably
one of the clearest worded cards around. In fact, the (D) symbol on
Rampage combined with its text is another example of a card that
reminds players that (D) symbols don't limit actions.
Brent Ross
Kevin M.
[snip John's explanation of why "(D)" isn't needed]
Wow, John. I was so going to jump his shit, but then I read your post and
got such a warm fuzzy from your education to him, that I might just never
be angry again.
p.s. Posts stay in Google forever, right? ;)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
agzocgud
it´s directed or not, they should be worded the same way. It should
always be there or never be there to avoid confusion.
ira...@gmail.com
> On Nov 20, 5:30 pm, agzocgud <per_math...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Is celestial harmony a d-action against all players?
>
> No. At inferior, it is a directed action against one player. At
> superior, it targets multiple methuselahs (all) and thus switches to
> being undirected (which is why the inferior gets the (D) reminder text
> and the superior does not.)
In a two-player game, is superior Celestial Harmony still undirected?
I think the answer is yes, because it targets both players:
[AUS] As above, but all Methuselahs are chosen.
If the card text was, "As above, but all *other* Methuselahs are
chosen," then would it be a D action? I think in that case it might
be directed.
In defense of the comment that defining directed actions can be
confusing, 6.2.2.1 doesn't actually mention what happens if an action
targets multiple meths. We know that it's non-directed, but I'm not
sure how that can be uniquely inferred from 6.2.2.1. There are also
some corner cases that could cause confusion. Mehemet's action is non-
D if the discipline card is controlled by a different meth, yet a
bounced Spirit Marionette bleed at basic Obeah is still directed, even
though it taps a vamp of a different meth than the target of bleed.
Of course, in 99% of the cases it's quite clear. :)
Ira
J
Renewed Vigor at superior
[OBE] Choose any other vampire. That vampire gains enough blood from
the blood bank to reach full capacity.
Is that a D action if done on a vamp controlled by another methusela?
I would say yes, but am not 100% sure.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
LSJ
> In a two-player game, is superior Celestial Harmony still undirected?
>
> I think the answer is yes, because it targets both players:
> [AUS] As above, but all Methuselahs are chosen.
Correct.
> If the card text was, "As above, but all *other* Methuselahs are
> chosen," then would it be a D action? I think in that case it might
> be directed.
Sure.
LSJ
> Here's another question, dumb as it may be.
>
> Renewed Vigor at superior
> [OBE] Choose any other vampire. That vampire gains enough blood from
> the blood bank to reach full capacity.
>
> Is that a D action if done on a vamp controlled by another methusela?
> I would say yes, but am not 100% sure.
Yes. "If the action targets another Methuselah (or something controlled by
ericson...@gmail.com
the (D) on some cards and the omission of the (D) on others could lead
to confusion? I know that the rules are quite clear on the subject of
directed actions but that's no reason to keep "intentionally
ignorable" symbols on the cards.
Is the (D) on inferior "The Eternal Mask" just a reminder that you
usually bleed your prey and not yourself?
Samuel Ericson
LSJ
> Is the (D) on inferior "The Eternal Mask" just a reminder that you
> usually bleed your prey and not yourself?
It a reminder that the action is typically directed. Which it is.
Teeka
While it is always handy to have a situation like that, it doesn't
take away the fact that you simply need to know the rules in order to
play the game.
Don't blame the confusion caused by your own lack of rules-knowledge
on specific card texts.
People who know the rules (not just 'very experienced' players) should
be able to play with all cards, including old cards that are worded
quite differently than new ones, just fine.
Raille
"agzocgud" <per_m...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7aa99dde-a12e-4be9...@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I still belive that if two cards follow the same rules regarding when
it´s directed or not, they should be worded the same way. It should
always be there or never be there to avoid confusion.
Its only confusing to people that have no clear understanding of the rules.
as mentioned previously:
Read. The. Rules.
Once you understand the rules and how to play the game, then you willno
longer care if you
See D's on any or every card. They become like the ambient background
sounds you
can't really hear but are always there.
Raile
ps
Play. The. Game.
This message influenced by Ankur
agzocgud
> take away the fact that you simply need to know the rules in order to
> play the game.
> Don't blame the confusion caused by your own lack of rules-knowledge
> on specific card texts.
Oh, yes, let´s increase the complexity of the game by having
inconsistancies in the card texts! That´s a excellent way to keep new
players from the game.
Another example:
Card A says: +1 stealth action. Tap a minion controlled by your
predator or a minion controlled by your prey.
Card B says: +1 stealth action. Tap a minion controlled by your
predator and a minion controlled by your prey.
No way anyone could be confused?
Teeka
Nope.
Card A says "or" so targets a *single* vampire *not controlled by
you*, so *per the rules of the game* it's directed.
Card B says "and". Now we have to think for longer than 2 seconds, so
brace yourselves. It targets two cards, which are *controlled by more
than one player*, so *per the rules of the game* it's undirected.
It's not rocket science. Just a matter of knowing the rules and taking
a brief moment to think about what rule applies to the card.
Sure, some cards or effects aren't as clear as "master. gain one
pool", but all the confusion you keep mentioning is either caused by
insufficient knowledge of the rules, not taking enough time to think
about what rule actually applies, or both.
Both cards A and B are perfectly clear.
Teeka
-who plays pretty badly, but knows the rules just fine.
p.s.
Nitpick: if there are only two players (left), your predator is also
your prey. So for card B, you would choose 2 vampires who *all have
the same controller*. So *per the rules of the game*, the action would
become directed. Not that it makes any difference on who can block
though.
LSJ
> Nitpick: if there are only two players (left), your predator is also
> your prey. So for card B, you would choose 2 vampires who *all have
> the same controller*. So *per the rules of the game*, the action would
> become directed. Not that it makes any difference on who can block
> though.
Nitpicking nits:
Allonzo Montoya.
Benedict Giovanni.
Kaymaki Barrier.
Phillipe Rigaud.
Teeka
Lol. Nice.
And more examples on why it is necessary to know exactly when a
direction is directed or undirected!
dvorax
> On 21 nov, 14:20, agzocgud <per_math...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > While it is always handy to have a situation like that, it doesn't
> > > take away the fact that you simply need to know the rules in order to
> > > play the game.
> > > Don't blame the confusion caused by your own lack of rules-knowledge
> > > on specific card texts.
>
> > Oh, yes, let´s increase the complexity of the game by having
> > inconsistancies in the card texts! That´s a excellent way to keep new
> > players from the game.
>
> > Another example:
>
> > Card A says: +1 stealth action. Tap a minion controlled by your
> > predator or a minion controlled by your prey.
>
> > Card B says: +1 stealth action. Tap a minion controlled by your
> > predator and a minion controlled by your prey.
>
> > No way anyone could be confused?
>
> Nope.
>
> Card A says "or" so targets a *single* vampire *not controlled by
> you*, so *per the rules of the game* it's directed.
>
another inconsistency jumps to my mind. "Or" in VtES is not always
exclusive (e.g. Mokole Blood -
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/2c7f6656990ee36c/1741c17f9c9231e0
)
Teeka
> )- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
Different use of the word. Semantics. Moot.
ericson...@gmail.com
> While it is always handy to have a situation like that, it doesn't
> take away the fact that you simply need to know the rules in order to
> play the game.
> Don't blame the confusion caused by your own lack of rules-knowledge
> on specific card texts.
>
> People who know the rules (not just 'very experienced' players) should
> be able to play with all cards, including old cards that are worded
> quite differently than new ones, just fine.
No one is arguing that one shouldn't know the rules or that the cards
in question is in any way in conflict with the rules. The problem is
the inconsistant apperance of the (D) symbol. If the symbol hasn't got
anyting to do with the rules of the game, why keep it? For some
players, like myself, the (D) in the cardtext might imply that the
function of the card differs in some way from a card with no (D) in
the card text. I KNOW now that it's not the case, but if the (D) has
nothing to do with the rules it can only lead to confusion.
The argument "it's not a problem, people who know the rules aren't
confused by it" doesn't seem valid to me. Why not make the game as
accesible as possible to players who don't know all the rules yet.
Especially since there are quite a lot of them (rules that is, maybe
players as well).
dvorax
> On 21 nov, 16:11, dvorax <dvorax...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Although it has nothing to do with the directedness of the action,
> > another inconsistency jumps to my mind. "Or" in VtES is not always
>
> Different use of the word.
Sorry, I'm no native speaker. Could you, please, try to explain the
difference between
Tap a minion controlled by your predator or a minion controlled by
your prey.
and
Search your library or ash heap for up to four cards that require
Serpentis.
The former means using one of the options, the later using both of
them.
Teeka
> On Nov 21, 4:27 pm, Teeka <teeka_dra...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 21 nov, 16:11, dvorax <dvorax...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > > Although it has nothing to do with the directedness of the action,
> > > another inconsistency jumps to my mind. "Or" in VtES is not always
> > > exclusive.
>
> > Different use of the word.
>
> Sorry, I'm no native speaker.
Me neither. I know how to speak English, but I have limited knowledge
of the names and defintions of the elements of English grammar.
Could you, please, try to explain the
> difference between
I'll try, but I bet once a native speaker comes along, that person
will be better at it than me.
> Tap a minion controlled by your predator or a minion controlled by
> your prey.
> and
> Search your library or ash heap for up to four cards that require
> Serpentis.
>
> The former means using one of the options, the later using both of
> them.
The word "or" does not have only one definition. It CAN mean "a
specified choice between things", but ALSO "one (or some) of the
following" or "if any of these things happen".
In the discussion you linked to, the word "or" meant "if any of these
things happen (whichever comes first)": meaning a definition of a time
frame in which a certain something is true, not a specified choice.
You can't take a word that has several meanings out of context, place
it in a different context, and then claim it to have the same meaning
in both instances.
You say the word "or" is not always exclusive in VTES. I say that
point is moot, because it is not always exclusive PERIOD. You still
need to read the rest of the sentence. This is a basic rule in
language.
What I mean is, you can't argue over a specific wording by quoting
another instance of a certain word, if in that other instance the word
in question has a different meaning. You can't compare "I have OVER
1000 cards" to "I talked to her OVER the phone" either.
Sorry I can't explain it any better than that in English. I could, if
you could understand Dutch... Someone help me out here?
Mael
Anyway, this discussion got me thinking about:
Condemn the Sins of the Father [LotN:R]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Quietus
+1 stealth action.
[qui] Choose a clan. All younger vampires of that clan are tapped.
Vampires of the chosen clan may attempt to block (in addition to the
normally eligible blockers).
[QUI] As above, and each younger vampire of the chosen clan burns 1
blood.
If my understanding is correct, then if there's only one player with
vampires of the chosen clan then it's an action directed against him/
her, if there's two or more players being effected then it's an
undirected action.
What I'm unsure about though is the case where there's two or more
players with vampires from the chosen clan, but only one player with
younger vampires from the chosen clan. That is, does the card target
all vampires of the clan and then tap those that are younger, or does
it target only the younger vampires?
Or should I be posting this in a seperate topic?
Seamus.
Teeka
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
I'd say it is undirected, because you target a clan "in general", you
don't get to choose a card (or cards) in play. The fact that perhaps
just one player (or maybe none at all) is affected in the end, is
irrelevant in that matter.
Teeka
>
> - Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
Additional: if the wording of Condemn the Sins OTF were
"Choose any number of younger vampires, that all belong to the same
clan. All of the chosen vampires are tapped...",
then I guess you would be right. That way you'd be targetting actual
cards in play, instead of a clan in general.
bwross
> Are you serious? Are you in no way able to see how the inclusion of
> the (D) on some cards and the omission of the (D) on others could lead
> to confusion?
Obviously, this thread is proof that it does cause some confusion.
However, for a group new to the game, it should go a little something
like this:
"What's that strange (D) symbol? It's not on this VTES Symbols
card... so maybe it's in the rule book! (Looks in index) D symbol,
page 25! And there it is, right at the top of the page... standing
out in the middle of a sentence telling me that it's just a reminder
that an action is typically directed."
Of course, if they learn the game from someone who doesn't know the
rules or doesn't mention that (D) is just a guideline (and they never
actually read the rules themselves)... well, that's an unavoidable
problem. You also get confused players who believe that bleed actions
on cards can be directed at any player (because it doesn't explicitly
limit it to prey). It's hard to completely stop the spread of bad
rule interpretations... you can only further promote the correct ones
and hope.
> I know that the rules are quite clear on the subject of
> directed actions but that's no reason to keep "intentionally
> ignorable" symbols on the cards.
Actually, I find it very handy for hand scans. And almost all of the
time, a (D) or no-(D) marks exactly what I'm going to do with the
card. There's only a handful of weird cards like Temptation, and
corner case situations like Charnas are exactly the sort of thing that
makes me look close enough at a card like Shadow Twin to see if it can
be applied.
Brent Ross
LSJ
> Condemn the Sins of the Father [LotN:R]
> Vampires of the chosen clan may attempt to block (in addition to the
> normally eligible blockers).
>
> vampires of the chosen clan then it's an action directed against him/
> her, if there's two or more players being effected then it's an
> undirected action.
Correct.
> What I'm unsure about though is the case where there's two or more
> players with vampires from the chosen clan, but only one player with
> younger vampires from the chosen clan. That is, does the card target
> all vampires of the clan and then tap those that are younger, or does
> it target only the younger vampires?
The latter.
as...@hotmail.com
> "agzocgud" <per_math...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
This "Its only confusing to people that have no clear understanding of
the rules." might be the funniest I´ve ever read here.
nys...@cs.com
dvorax wrote:
> Sorry, I'm no native speaker. Could you, please, try to explain the
> difference between
> Tap a minion controlled by your predator or a minion controlled by
> your prey.
One factor that makes this unambiguous is the use of the singular. It
is not the only factor though, since it would still be unambiguous if
you were to say "Tap 4 minions controlled by your predator or 4
minions controlled by your prey."
"Tap a minion controlled by your predator or your prey" is also
unambiguous, this time ONLY because of the singular, because ...
"Tap 4 minions controlled by your predator or your prey" is
ambiguous.
This is because you do not know whether the choice between predator OR
prey applies to each minion separately, or to all 4 taken as a group.
The most likely reading is that you can choose between predator and
prey once each time you tap a minion (ie. you can tap 1 from predator
and 3 from prey, and are not forced to choose only between tapping 4
predator minions or tapping 4 prey minions.)
> and
> Search your library or ash heap for up to four cards that require
> Serpentis.
As in the example above, the mention of 4 cards suggests the
possibility that, for each card, one can choose between library and
ash heap.
> The former means using one of the options, the later using both of
> them.
In each case, one uses only one of the options each time a choice is
made.