"New" Demo Decks
The Lasombra
http://www.vekn.de/main/news/newsarchive/demodecks
New Demonstration Decks
29.09.2003
In order to promote VTES in quick games, WW and Robin Tatu
(responsible for the ratings) came up with new demo decks. See the
cards first at vekn.de
John P.
starter decks for demos, instead supplying "demo packs". Very
few details have been suplied.
"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:uaimpvoqvfiglkd4o...@4ax.com...
Orpheus
> starter decks for demos, instead supplying "demo packs". Very
> few details have been suplied.
"There are three new demo decks consisting of 30 common only cards and 6
vampires" ; "To mark demo cards, WW printed Free Demonstration Card text on
the bottom of the promo cards."
I dislike this new strategy. A lot. The obvious goal is not to diminish the
sales by having decks given away with good cards in them. Although I can
understand this, I don't like it. I'm not even sure it's good politics :
having a good starter gave many players I know the will to buy more cards
and get into the game seriously.
30 / 6 cards ? Yes, it's enough to see the mechanics of the game. But then,
only if everyone plays with these. It means tables of 3, or making decks
especially in the same format for promo purposes, or having a game with 2
different formats. And of course, the player won't be able to join "real"
games before he buys at elast a starter (and preferably some boosts).
And having a special "promo" logo is ok. But the big and ugly text serves
the only purpose of having the players buy / trade the same cards again :
after a while, he won't stand having his Iliana look "cheap".
Once more, from a commercial PoV, I can understand these choices. But until
recently, WW's choices regarding VTES weren't as much marketting-oriented,
and it was a wise choice IMHO as many players sticked to the game because it
was "different from that other CCG". Now, with this, the extensions every
6-9 months, maybe Group 4 soon, etc... I don't know anymore.
Hoping I'm wrong,
Orpheus
Carl Pilhatsch
Those decks are intended to show how the game works. They are better to
teach the game to total newbies who have never heard of TCGs before,
they are easy to play with and will be mostly used for quick demo-ing.
The purpose is to give princes a reliable and easy-to-use/easy-to-teach
tool.
If a person likes the game, he will buy a starter nonetheless.
Also, you could put two of those demo-decks together and have a legal
deck... ;)
Carl
Orpheus
> teach the game to total newbies who have never heard of TCGs before,
> they are easy to play with and will be mostly used for quick demo-ing.
>
> The purpose is to give princes a reliable and easy-to-use/easy-to-teach
> tool.
>
> If a person likes the game, he will buy a starter nonetheless.
> Also, you could put two of those demo-decks together and have a legal
> deck... ;)
>
> Carl
Of course, Carl, I know and understand this. And people I've initiated
throough promo starters did, mostly, buy cards (lots of ?). Also, I only
gave the starts away to people who intended to keep on playing, and enjoyed
the available starters (i.e. if one wanted Lasombra he had to buy it).
What I do not like is whenever people aren't given options. Common-only,
30/6 cards, big ugly text, all these reduce the options to mostly throw /
give the cards away once you get into the game. One starter really doesn't
make that much of a difference compared to the cards a regular player will,
eventually, buy, but it does for the player himself.
As for putting 2 demo decks together, well, then it would be biasing the
demos : we will get a "certain amount" of decks, and giving two per player
would be cheating on WW's intent. We wouldn't want that, now, would we ? ;)
Yours,
Orpheus
Johannes Walch
When you speak of options : Who said that there will be no more starters? As
I have understood it the demo decks are just on top of the starters to have
really quick demo games e.g on a game fair like this week in Essen, where
Andreas is taking the demo packs to their first? mission. You can´t just
play for 2+ hours (and this is the time it takes to play starters with
newbies) on a game fair. Games have to be done in 30-40 minutes.
--
johannes walch
v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/
Orpheus
> > What I do not like is whenever people aren't given options.
>
> When you speak of options : Who said that there will be no more starters?
The official annoucements ?
As
> I have understood it the demo decks are just on top of the starters to
have
> really quick demo games e.g on a game fair like this week in Essen, where
> Andreas is taking the demo packs to their first? mission. You can´t just
> play for 2+ hours (and this is the time it takes to play starters with
> newbies) on a game fair. Games have to be done in 30-40 minutes.
>
> --
> johannes walch
> v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/
I think that now there won't be a choice. And of course, quick games can be
a good way to start initiations, but it also can give a flavour of the game
quite different (and less interesting) from what it really is.
But as you understood, this isn't what really appals to me in the new demo
decks.
Yours,
Orpheus
LSJ
> I dislike this new strategy. A lot. The obvious goal is not to diminish the
> sales by having decks given away with good cards in them. Although I can
> understand this, I don't like it. I'm not even sure it's good politics :
> having a good starter gave many players I know the will to buy more cards
> and get into the game seriously.
Starters will still be available (in releases that have starters, at any
rate. Bloodlines didn't have starters, for instance). Black Hand, for
example will introduce four new preconstructed starters. Whether they're
"good starters" or not is a matter of opinion, but I'd like to think they
are. :-)
> 30 / 6 cards ? Yes, it's enough to see the mechanics of the game. But then,
That's the idea, yeah. They're "demo decks". The purpose of demo decks is
to demo the game (mechanics, cards, etc.).
> only if everyone plays with these. It means tables of 3, or making decks
Not true. You can demo the game with a demo deck vs. a precon vs. a regular
constructed deck if you like.
> especially in the same format for promo purposes, or having a game with 2
> different formats. And of course, the player won't be able to join "real"
> games before he buys at elast a starter (and preferably some boosts).
The demo decks are designed to give players enough of a feel for the game
to allow them to decide if it's interesting enough for them to invest their
time and money in, yes.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Orpheus
> rate. Bloodlines didn't have starters, for instance).
In demo packs ?
> Black Hand, for
> example will introduce four new preconstructed starters. Whether they're
> "good starters" or not is a matter of opinion, but I'd like to think they
> are. :-)
LOL. I sure hope so. I also hope they will be more balanced (for sealed
decks purposes) than the previous ones...
> > 30 / 6 cards ? Yes, it's enough to see the mechanics of the game. But
then,
>
> That's the idea, yeah. They're "demo decks". The purpose of demo decks is
> to demo the game (mechanics, cards, etc.).
>
> > only if everyone plays with these. It means tables of 3, or making decks
>
> Not true. You can demo the game with a demo deck vs. a precon vs. a
regular
> constructed deck if you like.
Most players will probably not find this "fair", in one way or another.
> > especially in the same format for promo purposes, or having a game with
2
> > different formats. And of course, the player won't be able to join
"real"
> > games before he buys at elast a starter (and preferably some boosts).
>
> The demo decks are designed to give players enough of a feel for the game
> to allow them to decide if it's interesting enough for them to invest
their
> time and money in, yes.
Which was the case anyway with starter demos.
But the main thing I really don't understand is : why put a big "Free
Demonstration Card" text on commons and vampires ?? It serves no commercial
purpose that I can see (people will buy boosts anyway for rares and other
commons / uncos), and vampires they will need too.
Once more, I understand the intent. I'm just not sure if it is best served
that way, and I don't like the "feel" of it.
------
Orpheus
David Cherryholmes
<orph...@NOSPAMfree.fr> wrote:
>But the main thing I really don't understand is : why put a big "Free
>Demonstration Card" text on commons and vampires ?? It serves no commercial
>purpose that I can see (people will buy boosts anyway for rares and other
>commons / uncos), and vampires they will need too.
I can think of a reason, but I have no idea if it was a factor in WW's
decision. The text serves to further reduce whatever secondary market
value these piles of commons would have.
If I understand some of the changes correctly, WW will ship its prize
support through the regular distributor networks, whereas before it
went from volunteer, straight to demo-monkey. Distributors are geared
to more or less reflexively sell things; witness the Lambach packs for
sale I've heard stories of popping up in FLGS's.
It makes me kind of sad, because I actually liked things better the
old way, and it really impressed me that WW was willing to give away
its own product to support the game. It made my (self-assumed) job of
promoting the game a lot easier, as every good crack dealer
understands.
Still, it's another data point to support my belief in Good Deal
Decay with about a five year half-life.
Orpheus
> >Demonstration Card" text on commons and vampires ?? It serves no
commercial
> >purpose that I can see (people will buy boosts anyway for rares and other
> >commons / uncos), and vampires they will need too.
>
> I can think of a reason, but I have no idea if it was a factor in WW's
> decision. The text serves to further reduce whatever secondary market
> value these piles of commons would have.
Interesting. But the different icon (the pawn) on the cards would be enough
to produce that result. No need for the text.
> If I understand some of the changes correctly, WW will ship its prize
> support through the regular distributor networks, whereas before it
> went from volunteer, straight to demo-monkey. Distributors are geared
> to more or less reflexively sell things; witness the Lambach packs for
> sale I've heard stories of popping up in FLGS's.
Yes. :-(
> It makes me kind of sad, because I actually liked things better the
> old way, and it really impressed me that WW was willing to give away
> its own product to support the game. It made my (self-assumed) job of
> promoting the game a lot easier, as every good crack dealer
> understands.
lol
> Still, it's another data point to support my belief in Good Deal
> Decay with about a five year half-life.
?? Care to develop ?
-----------
Orpheus
Jeff Kuta
> Orpheus wrote:
>
> That's the idea, yeah. They're "demo decks". The purpose of demo decks
> is to demo the game (mechanics, cards, etc.).
>
>> only if everyone plays with these. It means tables of 3, or making decks
>
>
> Not true. You can demo the game with a demo deck vs. a precon vs. a
> regular constructed deck if you like.
>
>> especially in the same format for promo purposes, or having a game with 2
>> different formats. And of course, the player won't be able to join "real"
>> games before he buys at elast a starter (and preferably some boosts).
>
> The demo decks are designed to give players enough of a feel for the
> game to allow them to decide if it's interesting enough for them to
> invest their time and money in, yes.
Will demo decks be legal to use in limited play? Depending on their
contents, they might be fun to use in conjunction with drafting. The
biggest problem using Precons in draft is they're predictable and rather
boring. The biggest problem with drafting purely boosters is that
certain expansions lend themselves to draft much better than others.
These might be a happy medium, or they could be completely useless, or
not legal at all!
Jeff
Robert Goudie
> > It had been circulated that White Wolf would no longer be supplying
> > starter decks for demos, instead supplying "demo packs". Very
> > few details have been suplied.
More details will be released soon. A demo "script" of sorts is in
the works as well.
> "There are three new demo decks consisting of 30 common only cards and 6
> vampires" ; "To mark demo cards, WW printed Free Demonstration Card text on
> the bottom of the promo cards."
>
> I dislike this new strategy. A lot. The obvious goal is not to diminish the
> sales by having decks given away with good cards in them.
Obvious, eh?
> Although I can
> understand this, I don't like it. I'm not even sure it's good politics :
> having a good starter gave many players I know the will to buy more cards
> and get into the game seriously.
> 30 / 6 cards ? Yes, it's enough to see the mechanics of the game. But then,
> only if everyone plays with these. It means tables of 3, or making decks
> especially in the same format for promo purposes, or having a game with 2
> different formats. And of course, the player won't be able to join "real"
> games before he buys at elast a starter (and preferably some boosts).
Having run many demos at game conventions, I found myself in quite a
bind. Robyn Tatu and myself even spent a lot of time trying to create
our own demo decks and demo methodology. One of the main issues was
that people at a game convention often didn't have multiple hours to
burn for a "demo". Frankly, for them to commit that much time, they
already had some interest.
These small demo decks fill a need. They allow us to quickly demo to
people who aren't yet interested in the game. These little decks
allow us to be more free with the demo materials.
> And having a special "promo" logo is ok. But the big and ugly text serves
> the only purpose of having the players buy / trade the same cards again:
Naw, we have other purposes in mind. Nothing so devious.
> after a while, he won't stand having his Iliana look "cheap".
> Once more, from a commercial PoV, I can understand these choices. But until
> recently, WW's choices regarding VTES weren't as much marketting-oriented,
> and it was a wise choice IMHO as many players sticked to the game because it
> was "different from that other CCG".
> Now, with this, the extensions every
> 6-9 months, maybe Group 4 soon, etc... I don't know anymore.
>
> Hoping I'm wrong,
Fortunately, you are. :) The "big ugly text" is there to protect new
players--not abuse them. The text is there so make it harder for
retailers or individuals to **sell** the cards to new players.
-Robert
Robert Goudie
Chairman, V:EKN
rrgo...@earthlink.net
Timlagor
> > >But the main thing I really don't understand is : why put a big "Free
> > >Demonstration Card" text on commons and vampires ?? It serves no
> commercial
> > >purpose that I can see (people will buy boosts anyway for rares and other
> > >commons / uncos), and vampires they will need too.
> >
> > I can think of a reason, but I have no idea if it was a factor in WW's
> > decision. The text serves to further reduce whatever secondary market
> > value these piles of commons would have.
>
> Interesting. But the different icon (the pawn) on the cards would be enough
> to produce that result. No need for the text.
Imagine you just walked into the shop and you have never seen the game
before. Now do you see a need for the text?
Andreas Nusser
with the new demo decks.
And I have to admit: The demo decks are great. Demoing VTES takes now
about 40-60 minutes whereas demoing with the starters took 2 hours.
You do not have to show the full potential of VTES in the first game.
Let them explore VTES. These 3 decks have everything you need for
beginners. Bleed, a bit of combat and Votes.
Now a lot of people might argue with that because of their own personal
expirience but the playgroup from Bochum did about 30 demos in 4 days.
Maybe a bit more maybe a bit less.
Just my two euro cents
--
Andreas Nusser
www.vekn.de
a.nu...@vekn.de
Hardy Range
> When you speak of options : Who said that there will be no more starters? As
> I have understood it the demo decks are just on top of the starters to have
> really quick demo games e.g on a game fair like this week in Essen, where
> Andreas is taking the demo packs to their first? mission. You can´t just
> play for 2+ hours (and this is the time it takes to play starters with
> newbies) on a game fair. Games have to be done in 30-40 minutes.
I currently do not have enough time on my hands to really start the
praise, but let me say that I discussed the merits of the three new
demo decks at length with some aof the players who did the demoing on
the Essen game fair.
The demo decks are very, very fine in our humble opinion.
They do what they are supposed to do: Make a demo possible, for 3 new
players, that explains the major points of the game in about 60
minutes or less.
So for the new demo decks: Good work, White Wolf!
The bad side:
What use are the brand new, wonderful demo decks, when you cannot buy
VTES cards at one of the largest Game Fairs in Europe?
We had lots of success with the demo decks, introduced dozens of new
players to the game, but whenever somebody asked where he could buy
the cards: Tough luck! There was next to no possibilty to buy VTES
cards at all - and we had retailers from all over Germany!
There is no sense in getting more and more players into the fold, when
there is a dire shortage of cards... :-(
Hardy Range
Prince of Bochum, Germany
http://www.vekn.de
vermillian
> I just came back from the game fair in Essen where I did field testing
> with the new demo decks.
Any chance we can get a deck list of these demo decks?
~SV
evil_poot_cat
> sales by having decks given away with good cards in them. Although I can
> understand this, I don't like it. I'm not even sure it's good politics :
> having a good starter gave many players I know the will to buy more cards
> and get into the game seriously.
My initial reaction to the official mini-demo deck is "It's about
time," and I'll check in as supporting the concept.
Actually, I've opposed using precons for demo purposes since Sabbat
War, and I've taken to carrying three or four mini-demo decks in my
gaming bag. My main goal there was to eliminate demo distractions by
keeping the decks small and simple -- short text, no cards that
require clarification, small- to mid- cap vamps, and a focus for each
deck. And of course, I haven't had an opportunity to try them,
outside of one test game. :-)
As far as markings go, I'd only oppose demo markings to the extent
those cards are prevented from tournament play. If they're legal, I
don't have a problem with them.
salem
scrawled:
If i understand things correctly, the sole effect of the demo markings
is to try and prevent unscrupulous retailers selling off demo cards,
seeing as the new support system will (probably) require shipments to
go through retail outlets.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
LSJ
> Will demo decks be legal to use in limited play? Depending on their
> contents, they might be fun to use in conjunction with drafting. The
> biggest problem using Precons in draft is they're predictable and rather
> boring. The biggest problem with drafting purely boosters is that
> certain expansions lend themselves to draft much better than others.
> These might be a happy medium, or they could be completely useless, or
> not legal at all!
It's legal. The demo cards are legal for all V:EKN play.
Halcyan 2
>with the new demo decks.
>
>And I have to admit: The demo decks are great. Demoing VTES takes now
>about 40-60 minutes whereas demoing with the starters took 2 hours.
I really do like the option that demo decks allow, but I really don't like the
fact that they're completely replacing the old Demo system.
Personally, I would have preferred a two-tiered system where you start new
players off with one of the new demo decks. And then once they get their
training wheels, those that are interested move on to a demo starter.
Some people might argue that "oh if they're interested in the game they won't
mind buying a starter." Those people probably don't know (or have forgotten)
what it's like in a college town... ;)
Having a combination of both demo decks and demo starters would allow Princes
the most flexibility and options IMO.
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>decision. The text serves to further reduce whatever secondary market
>value these piles of commons would have.
Why don't they just label the pack as "free" (or insert an info card saying
"free") instead of labeling all of the cards?
Sounds a bit too much like Magic's Portal to me...
>If I understand some of the changes correctly, WW will ship its prize
>support through the regular distributor networks, whereas before it
>went from volunteer, straight to demo-monkey. Distributors are geared
>to more or less reflexively sell
>things; witness the Lambach packs for
>sale I've heard stories of popping up in FLGS's.
Why doesn't White Wolf just punish the stores/retailers who break the rules? Or
somehow have the players boycott it?
>It makes me kind of sad, because I actually liked things better the
>old way, and it really impressed me that WW was willing to give away
>its own product to support the game. It made my (self-assumed) job of
>promoting the game a lot easier, as every good crack dealer
>understands.
>
I agree. I liked the old support system and it worked fine IMO. It's probably
just me being bitter but I still feel like some groups ruined it for the rest
of us (take for example one incredibly annoying and whiny Prince from
Brazil...).
Halcyan 2
Janne Hägglund
> Why doesn't White Wolf just punish the stores/retailers who break the
> rules? Or somehow have the players boycott it?
Because just printing that additional sentence onto the cards is about 100
times easier for everyone involved...?
Why would they waste time arranging boycotts and collecting ill will, when
they could be designing and selling games?
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
The Fanboy
> decks purposes) than the previous ones...
They seem to be.
At the tournament in St Louis this weekend, we had a member come by
and express interest. He watched round two of the tournament, and the
players gave him an overview of the game. Ira then handed me three
demo packs, and asked me and another player to teach him how to play.
In an hour, we played three games. The new player got a good feel for
the game, and was very hyped up about going to the dealers room to buy
some CE boosters and maybe a starter (if any were left). Within that
time, the only thing he didn't have a feel for was stealth and
intercept.
One deck is PRE/AUS vote/bleed with S:CE and bleedsoak for defense.
Another is DOM/FOR bleed, and the third is ANI/POT with light stealth.
There is no intercept in any of the decks, as far as I saw, except
for Cat's Guidance. So while the concept is included, we never had a
chance to explore it in the three games.
Being able to demo three games in an hour is handy, I have to say.
Fanboy
Wes
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote
>
> Why don't they just label the pack as "free" (or insert an info card
saying
> "free") instead of labeling all of the cards?
>
> Sounds a bit too much like Magic's Portal to me...
Was Portal bad for M:tG?
It seems to me that any promotion for V:tES isa Good Thing TM.
Including marketing to LARPers. Hey, as long as they don't dress up and
roleplay a character when they come play cards, I'm all for it!
Cheers,
WES
Albert Chang
> roleplay a character when they come play cards, I'm all for it!
Hehehe, I think it'd be pretty funny if someone dressed up as a vampire and
came and roleplayed a character and stuff...as long as they didn't swing a
sword at me or something, then it would cease to be funny and I'd just be
pissed.
Timlagor
> Including marketing to LARPers. Hey, as long as they don't dress up and
> roleplay a character when they come play cards, I'm all for it!
I'm all in favour of that.
I am totally opposed to giving them the new set a month before we get
it. If they don't play already the existing cards will be just as new to
them anyway. It seems totally nonsensical to me.
CE was supposed to be a fresh start so I can see that they might have
wanted to use that before it came out. How come we haven't had a 'fresh
start' for the Indies and Sabbat?
vermillian
Actually I prefer that, though let's try to keep it within the Vampire
setting. Dressing up like Darth Vader and ranting about the dark side
of VTES seems a bit out of place...
~SV
David Cherryholmes
> Being able to demo three games in an hour is handy, I have to say.
And also misrepresentative of the actual game. Let me say that I want new
Jyhad players as much as anyone. When I talk to prospective players, the
amount of time it takes to play a game is the most often cited
concern. The next most common is the need for four players for a
"real" game.
So showing off three stripped down three-ways in an hour seems wrong,
IMO. I haven't played with the decks, though, so it may be possible to
give a more accurate picture of the game with the very same decks.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
LSJ
> On 28 Oct 2003, The Fanboy wrote:
>
>
>>Being able to demo three games in an hour is handy, I have to say.
>
>
> And also misrepresentative of the actual game. Let me say that I want new
> Jyhad players as much as anyone. When I talk to prospective players, the
> amount of time it takes to play a game is the most often cited
> concern. The next most common is the need for four players for a
> "real" game.
>
> So showing off three stripped down three-ways in an hour seems wrong,
> IMO. I haven't played with the decks, though, so it may be possible to
> give a more accurate picture of the game with the very same decks.
No smiley, so I assume that you're being serious here.
It isn't wrong. Many demo products, most notably computer game demos,
are done this way. There is no intent or even any real possibility
of deception here. Demoees understand that the demo decks are designed
to demonstrate the game, to give a feel for the game's mechanics.
The demoers are also on hand to answer any questions about the "full"
game, including the difference that an extra player and larger decks
can make in the time (2-players: 15-45 min, 3-players: 30-90 min,
4-players: 40min-2hr, 5-players: 1.5-3 hr, 6-players: 2.5-5 hr,
7-players: 3.5-7 hr, and so on).
Wes
"vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> Actually I prefer that, though let's try to keep it within the Vampire
> setting. Dressing up like Darth Vader and ranting about the dark side
> of VTES seems a bit out of place...
But this game is all about the Jedi Mind Tricks!
Cheers,
WES
David Cherryholmes
> No smiley, so I assume that you're being serious here.
I am.
> It isn't wrong. Many demo products, most notably computer game demos,
> are done this way. There is no intent or even any real possibility
> of deception here. Demoees understand that the demo decks are designed
> to demonstrate the game, to give a feel for the game's mechanics.
Most people understand that a (good) computer game will return tens or
hundreds of hours of gameplay. Most CCG's actually do take only a
half-hour or so to complete. The potential for misunderstanding is much
greater. All I'm saying is that, when I've demoed new CCGs in the past
(Game of Thrones, for example) I knew that I was seeing the actual game
and could therefore judge whether or not I was interested. From what I've
heard, I wouldn't be able to do so from observing one of these demo
games.
> The demoers are also on hand to answer any questions about the "full"
> game, including the difference that an extra player and larger decks
> can make in the time (2-players: 15-45 min, 3-players: 30-90 min,
> 4-players: 40min-2hr, 5-players: 1.5-3 hr, 6-players: 2.5-5 hr,
> 7-players: 3.5-7 hr, and so on).
This doesn't address whether a 2 or 3 player game is really a game at all.
LSJ
> and could therefore judge whether or not I was interested. From what I've
> heard, I wouldn't be able to do so from observing one of these demo
> games.
What have you heard? It must differe dramatically from the norm.
Most demoees will be able to.
Most demoees would prefer not to have to commit to a 2.5-hour investment just
to find out if they like a game or not.
> This doesn't address whether a 2 or 3 player game is really a game at all.
Nor does it need to.
Rapid Thought is a suitably interesting 3-player game.
And the rules handle two player duels just fine.
If player preference is for 4 or 5 player games, well, that's player
preference.
Andreas Nusser
> David Cherryholmes wrote:
>
>> and could therefore judge whether or not I was interested. From what
>> I've
>> heard, I wouldn't be able to do so from observing one of these demo
>> games.
>
>
> What have you heard? It must differe dramatically from the norm.
>
> Most demoees will be able to.
> Most demoees would prefer not to have to commit to a 2.5-hour investment
> just
> to find out if they like a game or not.
>
>> This doesn't address whether a 2 or 3 player game is really a game at
>> all.
>
>
> Nor does it need to.
> Rapid Thought is a suitably interesting 3-player game.
> And the rules handle two player duels just fine.
> If player preference is for 4 or 5 player games, well, that's player
> preference.
I don't know why some of the poeple are skeptical about the new demo
decks. I am just saying that the decks are great if you demo a lot of
people. I mean if you demo VTES in private these decks might not be the
best to show the full range. But poeple which are taught in private have
more time.
Now if you see the game fair in Essen were you have to pull a game
within an hour a) to demo as many poeple as you can b) keep new gamers
interested (you got about a 1000 new games each year so games have to
relativly quick otherwise they just leave), demo decks are great.
And what you do in the end is teling them that VTES has a lot more
options from what they just saw. Keep them interested. Tell some of the
options.
Maybe y'all should differentiate the kind of people you are trying to
get into the game.
David Cherryholmes
> I don't know why some of the poeple are skeptical about the new demo
> decks. I am just saying that the decks are great if you demo a lot of
> people. I mean if you demo VTES in private these decks might not be the
> best to show the full range. But poeple which are taught in private have
> more time.
I don't *feel* especially skeptical. I just read the post and thought a
three-way 30 minute game doesn't sound much like a real game of Jyhad to
me.
> Now if you see the game fair in Essen were you have to pull a game
> within an hour a) to demo as many poeple as you can b) keep new gamers
> interested (you got about a 1000 new games each year so games have to
> relativly quick otherwise they just leave), demo decks are great.
> And what you do in the end is teling them that VTES has a lot more
> options from what they just saw. Keep them interested. Tell some of the
> options.
I never really had a problem with saying "hey, this game takes two
hours". Lots of games do, and I'd rather not go down the slippery slope
of trying to make the game any quicker than it already is. That would be
a major tweak, and a MAJOR mistake, IMO. I hope the urge to expand market
share doesn't lead some people to think the game should move in that
direction.
LSJ
> I never really had a problem with saying "hey, this game takes two
Neither do any of the people who run demos, actually.
> hours". Lots of games do, and I'd rather not go down the slippery slope
> of trying to make the game any quicker than it already is. That would be
The demo decks do not represent any effort to make the game quicker than
it already is. The demo decks represent an effort to demonstrate the game
in a convenient format (i.e., something less than the time it takes to
play a full 5-player game).
> a major tweak, and a MAJOR mistake, IMO. I hope the urge to expand market
> share doesn't lead some people to think the game should move in that
> direction.
Sure, but that's a topic unrelated to the demo decks.
David Cherryholmes
> What have you heard? It must differe dramatically from the norm.
I quoted the text. "We demo'd three games in an hour."
> Most demoees will be able to.
> Most demoees would prefer not to have to commit to a 2.5-hour investment just
> to find out if they like a game or not.
I don't have the privelage of knowing what "most" demoees would like.
> Rapid Thought is a suitably interesting 3-player game.
Sorry Scott, but I don't care for Rapid Thought at all. It's an option as
something to do between rounds, but not much more than that, IMO.
> And the rules handle two player duels just fine.
> If player preference is for 4 or 5 player games, well, that's player
> preference.
I assume VEKN identified 4 and 5 player tables as good for a
reason. Nor is it a "preference" to note emergent features in the game
that only actualize after a certain number of players are present.
LSJ
> On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, LSJ wrote:
>
>
>>What have you heard? It must differe dramatically from the norm.
> I quoted the text. "We demo'd three games in an hour."
That isn't an indication that one would not be able to judge one's
interest in the game.
>>Rapid Thought is a suitably interesting 3-player game.
> Sorry Scott, but I don't care for Rapid Thought at all. It's an option as
> something to do between rounds, but not much more than that, IMO.
Fine for you. Others have expressed opinions that differ from yours.
David Cherryholmes
> Fine for you. Others have expressed opinions that differ from yours.
It wasn't intended as a personal dig, just to make that clear. That said,
the majority of players I've discussed it with haven't cared for it.
The Fanboy
> Jyhad players as much as anyone. When I talk to prospective players, the
> amount of time it takes to play a game is the most often cited
> concern. The next most common is the need for four players for a
> "real" game.
The player had a chance to watch a 2 hour game. He had a chance to
watch the fervent dealing that happens in a tournament. He knows how
much a full game takes in terms of time. Despite this, as demo play
progressed, I told him how the demo differs from "normal" gameplay.
He knows the major differences.
I would think anybody running the demo would point these out.
"Normally, you would start with this, but for the sake of the demo,
we're toning that down to this." He watched a game, and was
interested. Then, we taught him basic rules. By the end of it, he
had a better understanding of what he'd watched before, and a stronger
desire to play the game.
The demo packs worked. Did they work better than the old demo decks?
I can't say. I know the demo games I ran when Sabbat War was about to
come out took longer, and some players lost interest because the games
were so LONG.
Baby steps are an important part of getting people into something as
complex as VTES can be.
> So showing off three stripped down three-ways in an hour seems wrong,
> IMO. I haven't played with the decks, though, so it may be possible to
> give a more accurate picture of the game with the very same decks.
They touch on all the basic rules. They're balanced, so the person
who gets X deck doesn't always steamroll the table. It's better than
consuming two hours of time from someone who isn't interested.
Fanboy
David Cherryholmes
> They touch on all the basic rules. They're balanced, so the person
> who gets X deck doesn't always steamroll the table. It's better than
> consuming two hours of time from someone who isn't interested.
Your points sound sensible. Like said, I just read the "30 minute
3-way" and went "wah?". I'll reserve any further comment until after I've
tried them myself.
Dieter
12 times on the trade fair in essen:
First of all, big praise to the ones who built and tested these new
demo decks. They work fine. Let me summarize why:
- they are balanced in itself, i.e. you draw the cards when you need
them. The chosen cards are easy to understand at first sight without
forgetting to give an idea that this game could become more complex if
you have a second look on the card text. e.g. Govern the Unaligned,
Cat's Guidance or Rat's warning.
- they are balanced among each other, i.e. each deck has its chance to
win. Mostly depending on the seating order. There is no "killer"-deck.
- they show exactly the right amount of what vtes is capable of (or
what is even more important, the amount of what new players are
capable to understand before their brains would collapse), i.e.
showing most aspects of the game like, bleed, politics, combat etc.
without getting too complex. For example combat, combat is restricted
to strike-, strike resolution and press-step. Which comes in handy
when you have already explained the different phases of a turn, and
people start to understand these phases. There is no need to confuse
them with the different phases of combat at that point.
- they are well timed, i.e. usually shortly before or shortly after a
deck has run out of library, the game ended in its "normal" way (2
metusalahs ousted). And since a demo round approx. takes 40 - 60
minutes there was no need to interrupt or cancel a running game.
Thanx, for this great new way to introduce this game. Btw, last
tuesday we held our first casual! meeting since the trade fair, and
there were 10! new players only in Bochum.
It would be interesting to hear if the other domains in germany had
experienced a similar raise of new players.
The pre-release Tournaments will show, if this success story
continues, but i'm sure it will.
Cheers,
Dieter
Reyda
"David Cherryholmes" <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.031030...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu...
> On 29 Oct 2003, The Fanboy wrote:
>
> > They touch on all the basic rules. They're balanced, so the person
> > who gets X deck doesn't always steamroll the table. It's better than
> > consuming two hours of time from someone who isn't interested.
>
> Your points sound sensible. Like said, I just read the "30 minute
> 3-way" and went "wah?". I'll reserve any further comment until after I've
> tried them myself.
well, looks like you're improving yourself. =)
good for you, good fur us.
Reyda
"Dieter" <lytha...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:3c23ef4.03103...@posting.google.com...
> Here comes an opinion from one who used the new demo decks for about
> 12 times on the trade fair in essen:
>
> First of all, big praise to the ones who built and tested these new
> demo decks. They work fine.
Thank you =)
would it be possible to post the lists of those demo decks ?
David Cherryholmes
> well, looks like you're improving yourself. =)
> good for you, good fur us.
So you *want* to keep insulting each other back and forth, is that it?
Dieter
>
Therefore i haven't kept one for my private stock and i can't remember the
complete decklists. Probably Andreas has them.
Hey Nusser, can you help out here?
Dieter
Johannes Walch
> > good for you, good fur us.
>
> So you *want* to keep insulting each other back and forth, is that it?
Yes please keep going. Would anyone bother reading the newsgroup if all
posts were about tournament results, rules questions and "Correct." or "No."
answers ? Those little personal wars keep us entertained :-)
--
johannes walch
v:ekn germany - http://www.vekn.de/
The Lasombra
news:uaimpvoqvfiglkd4o...@4ax.com
> Does anyone have more information about this?
> http://www.vekn.de/main/news/newsarchive/demodecks
> New Demonstration Decks
> 29.09.2003
> In order to promote VTES in quick games, WW and Robin Tatu
> (responsible for the ratings) came up with new demo decks. See the
> cards first at vekn.de
Can anyone that has received them confirm the following?
***********************
* Demo Deck - Ani-Pot *
***********************
Quick Reference Card
VEKN Membership Card
Short-Term Investment
Slum Hunting Ground
Computer Hacking
Rat's Warning
Sport Bike
Pushing the Limit
Lost in Crowds
Cats' Guidance
Undead Strength
Pushing the Limit
Rat's Warning
Undead Strength
Potence
Undead Strength
Rat's Warning
Cats' Guidance
Pushing the Limit
Undead Strength
Animalism
Computer Hacking
Rat's Warning
Meat Cleaver
Consanguineous Boon
Lost in Crowds
Pushing the Limit
Darva Felispa 3 Nosferatu
Judah 6 Nos. Prim.
Gerard Rafin 6 Nosferatu
Vaclav Petalengro 6 Ravnos
Amelia, The Blood Red Tears 5 Nosferatu
Gemini 5 Nosferatu
***********************
* Demo Deck - Aus-Pre *
***********************
Quick Reference Card
VEKN Membership Card
Protracted Investment
Society Hunting Ground
Social Charm
Telepathic Counter
Laptop Computer
Staredown
Aire of Elation
Consanguineous Boon
Bewitching Oration
Staredown
Telepathic Counter
Social Charm
Presence
Legal Manipulations
Staredown
Social Charm
Consanguineous Boon
Telepathic Counter
Misdirection
Legal Manipulations
Telepathic Counter
Laptop Computer
Consanguineous Boon
Bewitching Oration
Staredown
Sir Henry Johnson 4 Toreador
Cohn Rose 5 Toreador
Evan Klein 5 Malkavian
Fleurdumal 8 Toreador Prince
The Rose 5 Tzimisce
Creamy Jade 4 !Toreador
************************
* Demo Ventrue Dom/For *
************************
Quick Reference Card
VEKN Membership Card
Ascendance
Uptown Hunting Ground
Govern the Unaligned
Surprise Influence
Flak Jacket
Skin of Rock
Threats
Govern the Unaligned
Threats
Skin of Rock
Kine Resources Contested
Bewitching Oration
Fortitude
Kine Resources Contested
Skin of Rock
Threats
Skin of Rock
Threats
Dominate
Govern the Unaligned
Surprise Influence
Flak Jacket
Kine Resources Contested
Threats
Skin of Rock
Victorine Lafourcade 8, Ventrue Prince
Vittorio Giovanni 5, Giovanni
Earl 4, Ventrue
Catherine du Bois 5, Ventrue
Ingrid Russo 4, !Ventrue
Iliana 7, Gangrel
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
salem
<thela...@hotmail.com> scrawled:
>
>Can anyone that has received them confirm the following?
I have neither received them, nor applied for them, nor am able to
confirm anything. but i would like to add/ask a few things:
>
>***********************
>* Demo Deck - Ani-Pot *
>***********************
[snip]
>Vaclav Petalengro 6 Ravnos
does he have the new layout?
>***********************
>* Demo Deck - Aus-Pre *
>***********************
[snip]
>Cohn Rose 5 Toreador
Cohn's a Tremere!
>Evan Klein 5 Malkavian
>Fleurdumal 8 Toreador Prince
>The Rose 5 Tzimisce
>Creamy Jade 4 !Toreador
She's a 5 cap!
>************************
>* Demo Ventrue Dom/For *
>************************
[snip]
>Vittorio Giovanni 5, Giovanni
New layout?
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm