Challenge Reopened: AtomWeaver's Two Starter Mashup
The Lasombra
there are three new sets of starters that have been released since
then. (Lords of the Night, Keepers of Tradition, and Heirs to the
Blood.)
Atom Weaver's Deck Bashing Challenge
http://www.thelasombra.com/dbc/dbc.htm
The VTES Precon Decklist Bashing Challenge 03.01.07
Using only the cards contained in two precon starters of your
choice, generate a decklist you think would be competitive in a
mid-size constructed tournament (not a qualifier or championship, but
assume strong local players, and, say 20 participants). Duplicating a
starter is acceptable. Choosing more recent precons (3rd Ed, LOB,
KMW) is preferred (but not mandatory). Alternatively, you could
choose to substitute the content of VTES Player's Kit for one precon.
If you've got the stones to play it For Real in a sanctioned event, so
much the better, let us know how you do.
The goals here are
1) to challenge your m@dd deckbuilding skills!!
2) to generate some ideas for competitive decks that new/early players
might look to for inspiration and direction for their own collecting
efforts.
Also, I think these decklists could go a long way as evidence
against the (false) perceived need for big investment in cards in
order to build competitive decks.
Regards,
Dave Zopf
Atom Weaver
Wedge
Deck Name: Chains Rattling in the Dark
Created By: Matt Wedge
Description: HttB Lasombra/Kyassid and LoN Giovanni
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 16, Max: 36, Avg: 6.16)
----------------------------------------------
1 Luca Italicus tha DOM FOR NEC OBT POT10
Lasombra
2 Guillaume Giovanni CEL DOM NEC POT obt9 Giovanni
1 Pherydima obt pot DOM MYT NEC8 Kiasyd
1 Nunzio Giovanni nec pot 3 Giovanni
2 Primo Giovanni domnec pot 4 Giovanni
1 Margaret Milliner dom for nec pot pre5 Giovanni
1 Andrew Emory aus dom pot OBT5 Lasombra
1 Ermenegildo pot DOM OBT 5 Lasombra
1 Black Wallace DOM obt POT tha6 Lasombra
1 Virginie obt DOM POT 6 Lasombra
Library: (78 cards)
-------------------
Master (15 cards)
1 Channel 10
1 KRCG News Radio
1 Morgue Hunting Ground
1 Political Hunting Ground
1 Giant`s Blood
3 Vessel
2 Villein
2 Wider View
1 Sudden Reversal
1 Obtenebration
1 Necromancy
Action (11 cards)
6 Govern the Unaligned
2 Dominate Kine
2 Whispers from the Dead
1 Sudario Refraction
Action Modifier (17 cards)
3 Conditioning
4 Bonding
1 Shroud of Absence
4 Call of the Hungry Dead
1 Blanket of Night
4 Shadow Play
Reaction (8 cards)
3 Obedience
3 On the Qui Vive
2 Eluding the Arms of Morpheus
Combat (15 cards)
3 Brute Force
2 Immortal Grapple
2 Slam
2 Torn Signpost
2 Taste of Vitae
1 Autonomic Mastery
3 Absorb the Mind
Retainer (1 cards)
1 Mr. Winthrop
Equipment (3 cards)
2 Camera Phone
1 Sargon Fragment, The
Combo (8 cards)
4 Murmur of the False Will
4 Spectral Divination
This deck was last saved at 11:29:51 PM on 7/27/2010
Obtenebration
Deck Name : Mark 1 Eyeballs
Author : Obtenebration
Description :
Toreador + !Ventrue/!Salubri starters.
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 8 average: 6
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Epikasta Rigatos 8 AUS DOM PRE cel prince
Toreador:4
2x Eugene 8 AUS CEL FOR PRE primogen
Toreador:4
2x Kateline Nadasdy 7 AUS CEL PRE
Toreador:4
2x Sean Andrews 2
cel Toreador:4
1x Polly Kay Fisher 8 AUS DOM THA for pot archbishop !Ventrue:
4
1x Jephta Hester 5 DOM FOR aus !
Ventrue:4
1x Neighbor John 5 AUS dom
for !Ventrue:4
1x Nkechi 4 aus for
val !Salubri:4
Library [80 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [14]
3x Abbot
4x Govern the Unaligned
1x Graverobbing
6x Public Trust
Action Modifier [6]
4x Crocodile's Tongue
2x Dawn Operation
Combat [16]
5x Indomitability
3x Target Vitals
3x Taste of Vitae
5x Unflinching Persistence
Equipment [8]
1x Bowl of Convergence
2x Desert Eagle
1x IR Goggles
1x Ivory Bow
3x Sniper Rifle
Master [10]
1x Auspex
1x Corporate Hunting Ground
1x Fame
1x Rack, The
4x Vessel
2x Villein
Political Action [4]
4x Kine Resources Contested
Reaction [22]
3x Eagle's Sight
3x Enhanced Senses
3x Eyes of Argus
4x Minor Irritation
2x On the Qui Vive
3x Precognition
4x Telepathic Misdirection
Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Wed Jul 28 07:56:56 2010]
brandonsantacruz
Sock 'em"
Bleeding, blocking, bouncing, smashing, what more do you need?
2x Gustav Breidenstein
10 DOM FOR PRE aus cel pot Ventrue:4
Camarilla Prince of Berlin: Gustav may tap during a referendum
to gain 5 additional votes. +1 bleed.
2x Gotsdam, The Tired Warrior
9 AUS DOM FOR PRE ani Ventrue:4
Camarilla: Gotsdam may end combat as a strike that costs 1 blood.
He treats aggravated damage as normal damage in combat. He is
immune to frenzy cards.
1x Polly Kay Fisher 8 for pot AUS DOM THA archbishop
1x Titus Camille 8 for AUS DOM OBF +1 str, steals equipment
1x Jefferson Foster 6 for tha AUS DOM bishop
1x Mariel St. John 6 dom pro AUS FOR !Ventrue:4
1x Jephta Hester 5 aus DOM FOR !Ventrue:4
1x Neighbor John 5 dom for AUS +1 intercept
2x Jackson Asher 2 dom
82 cards
Master: 14
4x Vessel
2x Villein
1x Corporate Hunting Ground
1x Information Highway
2x Fortitude
1x Golconda
1x Fame
2x Special Report
Actions: 9
Dominate Kine
4x Govern the Unaligned
Graverobbing
3x Abbott
Equipment: 5
5x Baseball Bat
Votes: 2
1x National Guard Support
1x Reins of Power
Action Modifiers: 12
2x Dawn Operation
5x Conditioning
3x Freak Drive
2x Seduction
Combo: 5
5x Murmur of the False Will
Combat: 17
4x Armor of Vitality
4x Soak
3x Target Vitals
3x Indomitability
3x Unflinching Persistence
Reactions: 18
3x Eyes of Argus
5x Wake with Evening’s Freshness
2x Telepathic Counter
2x Hide the Heart
3x Precognition
3x Enhanced Senses
Brandon
Wedge
Deck Name: Move @#%#! Get Out the Way! Get Out the Way!
Description: KoT Brujah and HttB Tremere/Gargoyle Bruise then? Bleed
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 14, Max: 36, Avg: 6.08)
----------------------------------------------
2 Rocia obf FOR POT VIS8 Gargoyle
2 Garret pot pre 3 Brujah
2 Tomaine CEL POT PRE 6 Brujah
2 Jann Berger dem for CEL POT PRE10 Brujah
1 Frank Weisshadel dom pot tha 4 Tremere
1 Claus Wegener aus for tha DOM5 Tremere
1 Muhsin Samir aus pot DOM THA6 Tremere
1 Tarrence Moore aus dom tha 4 Tremere
Library: (77 cards)
-------------------
Master (11 cards)
2 Villein
2 Vessel
1 Depravity
1 Fame
2 Effective Management
1 Tension in the Ranks
1 Potence
1 Presence
Action (13 cards)
3 Bum`s Rush
5 Harass
3 Public Trust
2 Entrenching
Action Modifier (4 cards)
4 Conditioning
Reaction (11 cards)
4 Deflection
3 On the Qui Vive
4 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
Combat (36 cards)
6 Immortal Grapple
8 Slam
6 Torn Signpost
6 Brute Force
4 Soak
3 Taste of Vitae
3 Weighted Walking Stick
Retainer (1 cards)
1 J. S. Simmons, Esq.
Equipment (1 cards)
1 Sengir Dagger
This deck was last saved at 11:17:11 PM on 7/28/2010
trit
defence and combat works pretty well. Only problem is that you easily
run out of blood with your Tremere when playing all that nice
Dominate. This would be the first thing to attend if going beyond the
"starters only" scope.
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 4 max: 8
------------------------------------------------------------
3x Rocia 8 FOR POT VIS obf Gargoyle:4
3x Cedric 6 FOR obf pot vis Gargoyle:4
2x Muhsin Samir 6 DOM THA aus pot Tremere:4
2x Claus Wegener 5 DOM aus for tha Tremere:5
1x Frank Weisshadel 4 dom pot tha Tremere:4
1x Rusticus 4 VIS for Gargoyle:5
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [8]
6x Bum's Rush
1x Defender of the Haven
1x Soul of the Earth
Action Modifier [6]
6x Conditioning
Ally [2]
2x Rock Cat
Combat [33]
6x Immortal Grapple
4x Pounce
6x Raking Talons
7x Rockheart
3x Slam
7x Stonestrength
Master [10]
1x Barrens, The
1x Chantry
1x Depravity
1x Effective Management
2x Fame
4x Villein
Reaction [26]
8x Deflection
4x Patrol
4x Voices of the Castle
10x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Retainer [5]
1x J. S. Simmons, Esq.
4x Razor Bat
---
Antti
The Lasombra
http://www.thelasombra.com/dbc/dbc.htm
Here is a short article that appeared on the White Wolf forum
explaining how to approach the subject of making the most effective
deck possible from two starters. Read it there for optimal
formatting.
http://forums.white-wolf.com/cs/forums/t/33873.aspx
This short article is intended to be a primer on how to review a pair
of starter decks to see if you can, and how you should, combine them
to make the best deck that you can from them. (See also: Atomweaver's
Deck Mashup Challenge)
In this example, we will consider the Toreador and Brujah starters
from Keepers of Tradition.
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/toreador_precon_kot.htm
http://www.thelasombra.com/decks/brujah_precon_kot.htm
This is the complete list of cards that we can choose from, after
which we'll review each section and type of cards.
The Two Decks Together:
Crypt [24 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 11 average: 6.58333
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Adana de Sforza 11 CEL OBF POT PRE PRO aus inner circle Brujah:4
2x Rafael de Corazon 11 AUS CEL DOM OBF PRE inner circle Toreador:4
2x Jann Berger 10 CEL POT PRE dem for prince Brujah:4
2x Epikasta Rigatos 8 AUS DOM PRE cel prince Toreador:4
2x Eugene 8 AUS CEL FOR PRE primogen Toreador:4
2x Kateline Nadasdy 7 AUS CEL PRE Toreador:4
2x Tomaine 6 CEL POT PRE primogen Brujah:4
2x Herbert Westin 5 OBF PRE pot Brujah:4
2x Reginald Moore 4 PRE primogen Brujah:4
2x Thomas De Lutrius 4 aus cel pre primogen Toreador:4
2x Garret 3 pot pre Brujah:4
2x Sean Andrews 2 cel Toreador:4
Library [154 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [21]
4x Enrage
1x Entrancement
2x Entrenching
5x Harass
9x Public Trust
Action Modifier [11]
4x Approximation of Loyalty
4x Crocodile's Tongue
3x Suppressing Fire
Action Modifier/Combat [5]
5x Resist Earth's Grasp
Combat [46]
6x Brute Force
2x Concealed Weapon
3x Immortal Grapple
6x Psyche!
6x Pursuit
3x Relentless Pursuit
4x Slam
4x Stutter-Step
6x Taste of Vitae
3x Torn Signpost
3x Weighted Walking Stick
Equipment [25]
4x Bang Nakh -- Tiger's Claws
5x Beretta 9mm
1x Bowl of Convergence
2x Bundi
3x Desert Eagle
1x Drum of Xipe Totec
2x IR Goggles
1x Ivory Bow
1x Mark V
1x Phased Motion Detector
1x Sengir Dagger
3x Sniper Rifle
Master [20]
1x Auspex
2x Celerity
2x Contingency Planning
2x Fame
1x KRCG News Radio
2x Major Boon
1x Nod
1x Potence
2x Presence
1x Rack, The
1x Tension in the Ranks
4x Vessel
Political Action [10]
2x Finding the Path
4x Kine Resources Contested
1x Praxis Seizure: Houston
1x Praxis Seizure: Washington, D.C.
2x Year of Fortune
Reaction [16]
3x Eagle's Sight
4x Minor Irritation
5x On the Qui Vive
4x Telepathic Misdirection
------------------
We will start with the crypt. If you are combining two crypts, you
want to be able to ensure that you get the best vampires in your
opening crypt in as many games as possible. With the Keepers of
Tradition starters, this is eased by having all of the vampires
duplicated. If we wanted to be able to do some voting, we would keep
duplicate copies of Princes/Justicars and might even consider
including an Inner Circle member, if the pool regaining abilities of
the starters will support it. Unfortunately, these two starters
cannot support 11 capacity vampires, so we will drop all of the
vampires that are above 8 capacity. We'll duplicate the 3 vampires
that can play bleed bounce (Telepathic Misdirection) to ensure that we
have some effective defense against large bleeds sent towards us at
stealth. This leaves us room for 6 more minions, and we'll choose the
6 that are best able to help us overload our prey after a bounced
bleed (i.e. the cheapest ones with Presence).
These are the 12 vampires we'll use for this deck.
Crypt:
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 8 average: 6.08333
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Epikasta Rigatos 8 AUS DOM PRE cel prince Toreador:4
2x Eugene 8 AUS CEL FOR PRE primogen Toreador:4
2x Kateline Nadasdy 7 AUS CEL PRE Toreador:4
2x Herbert Westin 5 OBF PRE pot Brujah:4
1x Tomaine 6 CEL POT PRE primogen Brujah:4
1x Reginald Moore 4 PRE primogen Brujah:4
1x Thomas De Lutrius 4 aus cel pre primogen Toreador:4
1x Garret 3 pot pre Brujah:4
Having decided our crypt, our next simplest choice is the master cards
selection. In most 5 player games, there are ~8 turns before the
first player is ousted and rarely more than 14 turns in the entire
game. With that in mind, we will want to keep our master selection to
12-18 cards, as we aren't likely to see the entire deck but we would
like to be able to play a master card on every turn. Ones that gain
us pool or that recover pool spent on our vampires are our top
priority. The second priority is to use our master phase to protect
our pool or our minions, so anything that can help with that is next.
Cards which are situational or require too much cooperation from the
rest of the table will be bypassed. We are not likely to have more
than three vampires in play, so the actions we choose later will be
critical to ensure that we get the most bang for our buck.
------------------
Master Cards:
Master [13]
1x Auspex
2x Fame
1x KRCG News Radio
2x Major Boon
1x Nod
1x Rack, The
1x Tension in the Ranks
4x Vessel
Normally we would not expect to have enough untap in two starters to
be able to defend The Rack, but our opponents don't have to know that
this is what we are playing, so careful play can keep them from
attempting the steal action to begin with. If our predator does take
an action to steal The Rack, we aren't out any pool, and that was an
action that could have been an attempt to bleed us or remove our pool
with a vote. The Rack will be our Red Herring to distract our
opponents from the non-wall nature of our deck whose offense will be
strong bleeds. The Major Boons will allow us to pre-emptively take a
bleed that will be for 1 so that we have defense against larger bleeds
from our predator. Getting a Major Boon on your predator is a very
strong defense, particularly as they get to be closer to being ousted
themselves. The Auspex master will allow us to upgrade Thomas de
Lutria into a bleed bounce defender, so we will keep it. If we had a
wider selection of vampires, we'd choose a better minion that already
had superior Auspex and play another pool gaining master instead.
------------------
Now that we know what our minions will look like and the options we
have to regain pool, we will next consider how best to defend our
pool. We will take as much untap as we can as well as all of the
bleed bounce. As there are some pieces of equipment that will help us
a lot when blocking, we can safely splurge here on reaction cards.
We'll actually take all of them, from both decks.
Reaction Cards:
Reaction [16]
3x Eagle's Sight
4x Minor Irritation
5x On the Qui Vive
4x Telepathic Misdirection
The Minor Irritations are only useful to us when we start defending
against the action while we are untapped and are only useful to us
against younger vampires, so we know that we'll need to equip Epikasta
or Eugene with a defensive weapon and plan for them to stay untapped
when we have Minor Irritations in hand. If we don't have opponents
minions that are less than 8 cap coming against us, we'll discard
these as soon as we can.
------------------
Now that we know a bit of our plan for defense (large minion with
superior Auspex untapped at the end of our turn with a weapon), we can
consider how we will oust our prey. Suppressing Fire and Resist
Earth's Grap are our only options for stealth (but they do mesh well
with our plan to have a gun and with the amount of superior Celerity
we plan to have in play), and our minions won't reliably be old enough
to play the others, so we will keep all of the Suppressing Fire and
Resist Earth's Grasp cards.
Action Modifiers:
Action Modifier [3]
3x Suppressing Fire
Action Modifier/Combat [5]
5x Resist Earth's Grasp
------------------
We have 25 pieces of equipment to choose from to optimize our
defensive and offensive combat abilities. As we know we will need to
be defensive, we'll keep the Sniper Rifles and Desert Eagles as they
are our cheapest options. We'll throw in the Bowl of Convergence and
Ivory Bow as they are simply too good to leave out.
Equipment:
Equipment [8]
1x Bowl of Convergence
3x Desert Eagle
1x Ivory Bow
3x Sniper Rifle
------------------
As we now know our defense and our ability to force our actions to
succeed, the next thing to decide with what other actions we should
include. The strongest actions that we can take are those that do 3
points of damage to our prey. We'll include the Kine Resources
Contested and the Public Trusts. The Entrancement is also very
strong, so we'll include it as well. Harass will be good for us once
a copy of Fame is in play, so a few copies of it will go in.
Actions:
Action [14]
1x Entrancement
4x Harass
9x Public Trust
Political Action [4]
4x Kine Resources Contested
------------------
With the amount of stealth available to us, and the amount of blocking
we know that we will have to do, the choices for combat are made last,
but they are not the least important. Only 3 of our final minions
have Potence, so all of those cards will be removed. We'll keep all
of the Celerity and disciplineless cards to ensure that our combats
are as effective as they can be.
Combat:
Combat [27]
2x Concealed Weapon
6x Psyche!
6x Pursuit
4x Stutter-Step
6x Taste of Vitae
3x Weighted Walking Stick
------------------
Now we have our finished deck, made only from the contents of two
starters.
Final Deck Mashup:
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 8 average: 6.08333
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Epikasta Rigatos 8 AUS DOM PRE cel prince Toreador:4
2x Eugene 8 AUS CEL FOR PRE primogen Toreador:4
2x Kateline Nadasdy 7 AUS CEL PRE Toreador:4
2x Herbert Westin 5 OBF PRE pot Brujah:4
1x Tomaine 6 CEL POT PRE primogen Brujah:4
1x Reginald Moore 4 PRE primogen Brujah:4
1x Thomas De Lutrius 4 aus cel pre primogen Toreador:4
1x Garret 3 pot pre Brujah:4
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [14]
1x Entrancement
4x Harass
9x Public Trust
Action Modifier [3]
3x Suppressing Fire
Action Modifier/Combat [5]
5x Resist Earth's Grasp
Combat [27]
2x Concealed Weapon
6x Psyche!
6x Pursuit
4x Stutter-Step
6x Taste of Vitae
3x Weighted Walking Stick
Equipment [8]
1x Bowl of Convergence
3x Desert Eagle
1x Ivory Bow
3x Sniper Rifle
Master [13]
1x Auspex
2x Fame
1x KRCG News Radio
2x Major Boon
1x Nod
1x Rack, The
1x Tension in the Ranks
4x Vessel
Political Action [4]
4x Kine Resources Contested
Reaction [16]
3x Eagle's Sight
4x Minor Irritation
5x On the Qui Vive
4x Telepathic Misdirection
------------------
What thoughts and feedback do you have on this process?
Kevin M.
> Atom Weaver's Deck Bashing Challenge
> What thoughts and feedback do you have on this process?
That this and other demonstrations with two $10 starter decks
shows nearly conclusively that a "living" card game model isn't
needed or useful for VTES.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
TorranceCircle
>
> What thoughts and feedback do you have on this process?
I think this process is easier for an experienced player. I think it
is a good road map for new players who have had a little taste of the
game also. But a new player might go with some cards that are not
strictly based on gameplay simply because they do not know the game
well enough yet. For example, if I were a new player I would see the
Barretta 9mm's and think "that's cool, I can pull a John Woo and shoot
your vamps full of holes!" realizing later that it takes multiple
actions or drawing the few concealed weapons. That is a kind of thing
that a new player will get over, with time and others playing at the
same skill level. This 'roadmap' is a good way to start. I hope that
makes sense.
Also, I've been thinking about a deck for the mash-up and kind of
going about it in a similar way. been short on time so I haven't been
able to sit and do it yet. Once I do, this process will be quick, then
I can play and adjust.
-Andy
Screaming Vermillian
> The Lasombra wrote:
> > Atom Weaver's Deck Bashing Challenge
>
> [snip deck contents and comments]
>
> > What thoughts and feedback do you have on this process?
>
> That this and other demonstrations with two $10 starter decks
> shows nearly conclusively that a "living" card game model isn't
> needed or useful for VTES.
LCGs also eventually offer the alternative to CHASING rares around.
However, the No Card Limit and massive card pool already established
makes the ALL GAME NO CHASE motto of the Living Card Game format moot,
which IS one of LCGs biggest draws for people.
BTW, anyone PLAYED the deck?