VEKN Rules Questions
echia...@yahoo.com
hoping to get some clarification on:
#1. 4.1. Cards Allowed
All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal
Struggle or Jyhad cards.
If cards with distinct backs are used in the same deck (e.g., Jyhad
and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle cards, or upside-down 3rd Edition
cards and right-side up cards, or mis-cut cards) are used, in order to
prevent a significant advantage, all cards from the different sets,
printings, etc. must be of sufficiently mixed card type.
(Admittedly, card backs aren't a big issue with deck sleeves but let's
ignore sleeves for the moment).
Obviously this will prevent you from having a deck where the only
Jyhad-backed cards are Wake with Evening's Freshness or the only 3rd
Edition backed cards are On the Qui Vive. In this case, it's logical
since these cards have been reprinted with the correct backs so you
might be required to use half Jyhad backs and half current backs.
But what about the cases where a card is only available in Jyhad or
3rd Edition?
Am I allowed to have a deck where it is impossible to mix the cards
because of the editions they were available in? For example, the only
equipment in my deck are Chainsaws (only available in Jyhad-backed)
and Codex of the Damned (only available in 3rd Edition). All the other
cards in my deck were not available in Jyhad or 3rd Edition. In this
case the actual deck composition dictates that a sufficiently mixed
arrangement is not possible at all. Is this permitted? Or are there
some weird, random permutations of deck lists that are de facto
banned?
#2. I also noted that there aren't any good provisions for needing to
Skip a Round. There are rules for Late Arrivals and Early Departures,
but what happens if you can make the first and third round but not the
second? (The rules don't seem to allow hybridizing Late Arrival +
Early Departure).
The closest thing I could find is just taking a "Loss" for Tardiness,
but that can be more disruptive since it requires being seated to a
table (and if assigned to a 4-player table, your absence means
everyone else is just playing a 3-player game). Are there any other
alternatives?
Similarly, the current absence of such a provision provides an
additional complication in Limited events:
7.2.6. Early Departure and Late Arrivals
Once a player in a Limited tournament has received sealed product, he
or she may not leave (withdraw from) the event prior to the conclusion
of first round. If a player violates this rule, he or she must return
the product he or she received from the organizer, and receives a
"Loss" for the round on the official tournament record and is dropped
from the tournament.
Except for Sealed Deck tournaments, late arrivals (players who arrive
after the drafting/trading pods have been arranged) cannot be added to
the event.
- Scenario 1: I participate in drafting and the first round, but then
miss out on the second, third, and final rounds. Under 7.2.6. I get to
keep the cards.
- Scenario 2: I participate in drafting. I have to miss the first
round (for whatever reason) but can play in the second, third, and
final rounds. The rule doesn't seem to classify you as a late arrival
(returning). But since you technically do leave prior to the first
round, you have to return the product (even though you are returning
later on). I suppose you could make a weak argument that you return
the product and then when you return, the organizer gives it back to
you, but that may run afoul of the original intent for 7.2.4.
#3. Now that I look through it, I don't see where it specifically
allows you to change your deck in between rounds (from your pool of
drafted cards) in a Limited event. It is implied (deck lists consist
of all cards you received) but it might help to have an explicit
reminder (unless it's already there and I missed it).
#4. Finally, in the past there were issues regarding old Jyhad/VTES
starters + boosters (of any type including newer expansions). IIRC,
you could do a Sealed Limited event, but rules prohibit assigning
people their own starter and then drafting the boosters. (You could
assign fixed preconstructed starters and draft boosters, but you
couldn't do the same with the old Jyhad/VTES starters. And I've also
heard that you can treat the Jyhad/VTES starter is a massive booster
pack - is that correct?)
Has this ever been dealt with? Admittedly it's a cornercase situation
(that becomes less likely every year as the supply of original Jyhad/
VTES dwindles). But since there's already a corner-case rule for old
school boosters in 7.2.1. Limited Deck Composition:
Note: The rules based on number of boosters assume that each booster
pack has eleven cards. When using boosters from the sets that don't
have eleven cards in each booster (e.g., the original 1994 and 1995
base sets, or from the Dark Sovereigns, Ancient Hearts, or The Sabbat
expansions), then calculate the effective number of 11-card-boosters
by dividing the total number of cards by 11 (rounded to the nearest
whole number). Use that number to find the minimum deck sizes (this
section) and the number of recursions (next section).
I don't see why a brief exception couldn't address the starter
problem.
It was an issue a few years back at a post-Origins Limited event. And
I think the Chicago group is thinking about using Jyhad starters in an
event some time (but draft is so much more fun than straight sealed).
Thanks!
Juggernaut1981
>
> All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal
> Struggle or Jyhad cards.
>
> If cards with distinct backs are used in the same deck (e.g., Jyhad
> and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle cards, or upside-down 3rd Edition
> cards and right-side up cards, or mis-cut cards) are used, in order to
> prevent a significant advantage, all cards from the different sets,
> printings, etc. must be of sufficiently mixed card type.
> But what about the cases where a card is only available in Jyhad or
> 3rd Edition?
>
> Am I allowed to have a deck where it is impossible to mix the cards
> because of the editions they were available in?
If you can't basically obscure the card from yourself (like with the
Jyhad-only cards), then you need to use sleeves that will obscure the
card back. Either way, the core of this rule is: you should not be
able to guess your next card. You either know it (from some in-game
effect) or you don't know it (or maybe it's the only card left).
>
> #4. Finally, in the past there were issues regarding old Jyhad/VTES
> starters + boosters (of any type including newer expansions). IIRC,
> you could do a Sealed Limited event, but rules prohibit assigning
> people their own starter and then drafting the boosters. (You could
> assign fixed preconstructed starters and draft boosters, but you
> couldn't do the same with the old Jyhad/VTES starters. And I've also
> heard that you can treat the Jyhad/VTES starter is a massive booster
> pack - is that correct?)
AFAIK the original Jyhad starter was basically an approx 80 card
booster + rules.
Kevin M.
> I was going over the VEKN Rules and found a few oddities
> that I was hoping to get some clarification on:
>
> All cards in a player's deck must be genuine Vampire: The Eternal
> Struggle or Jyhad cards.
Since the beginning of the game, and even when the JYHAD backs
got changed to V:TES backs, in all the places I have ever played,
I have never encountered a single player, judge, or T.O. who said
anything about mixed backs.
For what it's worth. ;)
> #2. I also noted that there aren't any good provisions for needing to
> Skip a Round. There are rules for Late Arrivals and Early Departures,
> but what happens if you can make the first and third round but not the
> second? (The rules don't seem to allow hybridizing Late Arrival +
> Early Departure).
Again, in all the tournaments I have ever played in or run,
I have never seen or heard of this happening.
> #4. Finally, in the past there were issues regarding old Jyhad/VTES
> starters + boosters (of any type including newer expansions). IIRC,
> you could do a Sealed Limited event, but rules prohibit assigning
> people their own starter and then drafting the boosters. (You could
> assign fixed preconstructed starters and draft boosters, but you
> couldn't do the same with the old Jyhad/VTES starters. And I've also
> heard that you can treat the Jyhad/VTES starter is a massive booster
> pack - is that correct?)
>
> Has this ever been dealt with?
[...]
> It was an issue a few years back at a post-Origins Limited event.
It has, and I may have posted about it in the past, due to the issue
we had once at the aforementioned Origins tournament.
The rule is:
As long as you treat the starter as a booster, and draft it accordingly,
you are able to use starters and boosters together in a draft tournament.
We drafted a Jyhad starter (that took a while) and then 3x DS boosters.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
echia...@yahoo.com
> > #4. Finally, in the past there were issues regarding old Jyhad/VTES
> > starters + boosters (of any type including newer expansions). IIRC,
> > you could do a Sealed Limited event, but rules prohibit assigning
> > people their own starter and then drafting the boosters. (You could
> > assign fixed preconstructed starters and draft boosters, but you
> > couldn't do the same with the old Jyhad/VTES starters. And I've also
> > heard that you can treat the Jyhad/VTES starter is a massive booster
> > pack - is that correct?)
>
> > Has this ever been dealt with?
> [...]
> > It was an issue a few years back at a post-Origins Limited event.
>
> It has, and I may have posted about it in the past, due to the issue
> we had once at the aforementioned Origins tournament.
>
> The rule is:
> As long as you treat the starter as a booster, and draft it accordingly,
> you are able to use starters and boosters together in a draft tournament.
>
> We drafted a Jyhad starter (that took a while) and then 3x DS boosters.
Yeah, but I'm still hoping that one day they will add the option where
everyone gets a random Jyhad starter and then you can draft boosters.
Right now, with Jyhad starters and Any boosters, you either have to
draft the Jyhad starter as a starter or not draft any of the boosters
(straight sealed).
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>>> #4. Finally, in the past there were issues regarding old Jyhad/VTES
>>> starters + boosters (of any type including newer expansions). IIRC,
>>> you could do a Sealed Limited event, but rules prohibit assigning
>>> people their own starter and then drafting the boosters. (You could
>>> assign fixed preconstructed starters and draft boosters, but you
>>> couldn't do the same with the old Jyhad/VTES starters. And I've also
>>> heard that you can treat the Jyhad/VTES starter is a massive booster
>>> pack - is that correct?)
>>
>>> Has this ever been dealt with?
>> [...]
>>> It was an issue a few years back at a post-Origins Limited event.
>>
>> It has, and I may have posted about it in the past, due to the issue
>> we had once at the aforementioned Origins tournament.
>>
>> The rule is:
>> As long as you treat the starter as a booster, and draft it
>> accordingly, you are able to use starters and boosters together in a
>> draft tournament.
>>
>> We drafted a Jyhad starter (that took a while) and then 3x DS
>> boosters.
>
> Yeah, but I'm still hoping that one day they will add the option where
> everyone gets a random Jyhad starter and then you can draft boosters.
Why would you be hoping for a less-optimal less-good format
than the alternative already available to you?
John Flournoy
Being able to use Jyhad starters in a draft without taking three hours
to draft is not a less-optimal format for folks who have a bunch of
jyhad starters laying around and want to do a draft event.
Kevin M.
> KevinM wrote:
>> Why would you be hoping for a less-optimal less-good format
>> than the alternative already available to you?
>
> Being able to use Jyhad starters in a draft without taking three hours
> to draft is not a less-optimal format for folks who have a bunch of
> jyhad starters laying around and want to do a draft event.
Drafting an 87-card starter doesn't take any longer than drafting
eight 11-card boosters, maybe less. Why not just draft it? Time? :P
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Rehlow
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Or hold the event and make it not rated. A 10-15 player limited
tournament win will not mean that much to your rating anyway. It won't
stop anyone (I shouldn't say anyone, but most likely) from WI coming
to an IL Jyhad starter sealed + booster draft.
Later,
~Rehlow