No Secrets vs. Tangle Atropos' Hand

[invisibl...@gmail.com]

If a minion with No Secrets From the Magaji attempts to block an acting
vampire who plays Tangle Antropos' Hand, does the No Secrets burn? No
Secrets burns when a block attempt is not successful, and Tangle
cancels the action before the block is successful or not, so I can't
figure out if cancelling the action means the block attempt was
unsuccessful.

John Eno

[LSJ]

invisibl...@gmail.com wrote:
> If a minion with No Secrets From the Magaji attempts to block an acting
> vampire who plays Tangle Antropos' Hand, does the No Secrets burn? No

Yes.

> Secrets burns when a block attempt is not successful, and Tangle
> cancels the action before the block is successful or not, so I can't
> figure out if cancelling the action means the block attempt was
> unsuccessful.

The question is: was it successful?
The answer to that is: no. It was not successful.
So NSftM burns.

[Merlin]

Following the same logic, would a vampire who played Forced Awakening
have to burn a blood if the acting minion plays Tangle for failing to
block despite the action being cancelled?

[Klai...@gmail.com]

Yes they would. That was actually asked already before and answered by
LSJ. :)

[Wookie813]

If the action is cancelled, how can the block attempt not be cancelled?
Tangle allows the acting vampire to take the same action - even a
bleed. If a minion has attempted a bleed action, they cannot attempt
another. How can a Magaji attempt and fail to block an action that
didn't happen?

[LSJ]

Wookie813 wrote:

> LSJ wrote:
> > The question is: was it successful?
> > The answer to that is: no. It was not successful.
> > So NSftM burns.
>
> If the action is cancelled, how can the block attempt not be cancelled?

It is cancelled.

Do you consider a cancelled block attempt to be successful?

It is not successful, so NSftM burns.

> Tangle allows the acting vampire to take the same action - even a
> bleed. If a minion has attempted a bleed action, they cannot attempt
> another.

Incorrect. He may attempt as many bleeds as he likes so long
as he never performs one (i.e., so long as he never reaches
resolution).

The "cannot repeat" rule on certain actions like bleeding hinges on
resolution (successful resolution or unsuccessful resolution).

> How can a Magaji attempt and fail to block an action that
> didn't happen?

He attempted to block and the action (and block attempt) was cancelled.
This is not the same as it never happening.

He attempted to block.
He did not successfully block.
No Secrets from the Magaji is therefore burned.

[invisibl...@gmail.com]

Right on. Thanks, LSJ.

John Eno

[Wookie813]

LSJ wrote:
> He attempted to block and the action (and block attempt) was cancelled.
> This is not the same as it never happening.
>
> He attempted to block.
> He did not successfully block.
> No Secrets from the Magaji is therefore burned.

I was actually able to come to this conclusion after posting, upon
further contemplation. I was hoping to post a 'nevermind', but I see
you are LSJohnny-on-the-spot.

It's true - I contemplate this stuff when I'm not posting on this
stuff. *sigh*

[James Coupe]

In message <1141784222....@j52g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>, LSJ

<vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>He attempted to block and the action (and block attempt) was cancelled.
>This is not the same as it never happening.

I believe that in similar situations, you've said that "cancelled"
doesn't mean never happened, but actually means something closer to
"irrevocably terminated".

That distinction makes it easier to follow what's going on here, to my
mind.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/1905e1d
ad3d47101

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

[The Bard of Crete]

>LSJ wrote:
> Incorrect. He may attempt as many bleeds as he likes so long
> as he never performs one (i.e., so long as he never reaches
> resolution).
>
> The "cannot repeat" rule on certain actions like bleeding hinges on
> resolution (successful resolution or unsuccessful resolution).

What?
So if an action is attempted and then cancelled, by say Psychomachia,
and there is no text on the card stating that the action can't be taken
again (like on Change of Target), the action can be attempted again
even if it was one of the defined "cannot repeat" actions like
bleeding??

The only difference I see between Psychomachia and Tangle Atropos' Hand
is that Psychomachia is played when the block happens and Tangle is
played when the block is attempted

Tangle Atropos` Hand
Action Modifier
1 blood
Temporis/Potence
Only usable when a minion is attempting to block.
[pot] Cancel the action and untap the acting minion. (The blocking
minion is not tapped.)
[tem] as [pot] above, and take the action card, if any, back into your
hand. (discard afterward.)
[TEM] As [tem] above, and this vampire gets +1 stealth on his or her
next action this turn.

Psychomachia
Action Modifier
1 blood
Daimoinon/Presence
Only usable when an ally or younger vampire successfully blocks before
tapping the blocker.
[pre] Cancel the current action and untap this acting vampire. The
blocking minion is not tapped.
[dai] The block fails, and the action continues. The blocking minion
cannot attempt to block this action again.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the blocking minion takes 1 damage (damage
not preventable).

Or have I totally misread or misinterpreted what you wrote?

[The Bard of Crete]

Blah...ignore me. This is apparently old news.
Torpor has not been kind to me.

[LSJ]

The Bard of Crete wrote:
> >LSJ wrote:
> > Incorrect. He may attempt as many bleeds as he likes so long
> > as he never performs one (i.e., so long as he never reaches
> > resolution).
> >
> > The "cannot repeat" rule on certain actions like bleeding hinges on
> > resolution (successful resolution or unsuccessful resolution).
>
> What?
> So if an action is attempted and then cancelled, by say Psychomachia,
> and there is no text on the card stating that the action can't be taken
> again (like on Change of Target), the action can be attempted again
> even if it was one of the defined "cannot repeat" actions like
> bleeding??

No. If the action reaches resolution (like it does in order for
Psychomachia to be played), then the acting minion becomes unable to
perform the restricted action again (assuming the action is one that is
restricted, like bleeding).

> The only difference I see between Psychomachia and Tangle Atropos' Hand
> is that Psychomachia is played when the block happens and Tangle is
> played when the block is attempted

That is the crucial difference, yes.

[The Bard of Crete]

> That is the crucial difference, yes.

Ok, that's what I thought. Thanks.

[cro...@gmail.com]

So by extention of this, can we say any of those votes that can only be
played once per game (e.g. Political Stranglehold) can be replayed if
taken back with Tangle Atropos' Hand or is played different from
resolved in this case?

Thanks,
Chris

[LSJ]

cro...@gmail.com wrote:
> So by extention of this,

"This" needs something to come before it for context -- perhaps some
portion of the message to which you were following up.

> can we say any of those votes that can only be
> played once per game (e.g. Political Stranglehold) can be replayed if
> taken back with Tangle Atropos' Hand or is played different from
> resolved in this case?

Played is different than resolved in every case, thanks to cards like
Direct Intervention and Sudden Reversal.

Even if canceled by DI, Political Stranglehold could not be played
again. Similarly with Tangle Atropos' Hand (which comes even further
after the "play").