timing - declaration, redraw, seduce etc.
Hollowboy
declare the effect, then replace?
1) Minion Tap
Player A has 3 Lasombra in play, all who have several blood. Player A
puts a Minion Tap on Gratiano, announces that he is minion tapping
Gratiano, replaces the Minion Tap, and then moves 5 blood from
Gratiano to his pool.
I'm player B, who think this is bad play :)
I think the target AND quantity of blood should be declared as the
Minion Tap is played, and before the MT is replaced (based on the last
sentence of the rulebook excerpt below).
Am I right?
If this *is* bad play, in a tournament, what should rectification be?
Would player A shuffle the replacement card back into their library,
and redeclare the MT amount *before* drawing up?
Rulebook:
1.6.1. General
Playing Cards. There are two main types of library cards: master cards
and minion cards. Master cards are played by Methuselahs; minion cards
are played by the minions (vampires and allies) the Methuselahs
control. Master cards have no icon at the top of the attribute bar
while each minion card has an icon there that indicates what type of
minion card it is. A card is played by placing it face up in the
playing area or by showing it to the other players and placing it face
up in the ash heap. The player completely declares the effect of the
card when it is played.
2) Second Tradition
Player C has 3 princes, two of whom are tapped. Player C is being
bled. Player C plays 2nd tradition, replaces the card, and then
announces which prince is blocking.
I think this is the same type of bad play as the above, with the same
tournament "fix". Am I right?
3) Seduction
Player B taps Lazverinus, places Scouting Mission on the table, and
announces that Lazverinus is bleeding for 2 (completely declaring the
effect of the card).
Player B knows better than to play Seduction or Sleeping Mind
simultaneously with the action, since another player might wish to
play DI or Rewind Time to cancel the Scouting Mission.
Player B draws up to replace Scouting Mission. Player B notes that
no-one has played DI.
...so player B puts Seduction on the table, saying "Lazverinus seduces
Gratiano for this action"
Is this legal? I'm really not sure. There is obviously a timing window
between the Scouting Mission and the Seduction (in which DI or Rewind
Time can be played). What I want to know, is whether player B replaces
his Scouting Mission during that timing window.
The rulebook doesn't mention when replacing happens, hence my "Overall
question" at the top of this post.
Rulebook:
6.2.1. Announce the Action
Announce the action and tap the acting minion (only ready untapped
minions can take actions). Any card required for the action is played
(face up) at this time. All details of the action are declared when
the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the
effects, etc.
4) Temptation.
Player B controls several Followers of Set. His prey, player Y, has a
tapped vampire, Howler, who has 4 blood, and 4 of player B's
temptation counters on her.
Player B attempts to hunt with Celine.
Player Y plays Forced Awakening on Howler, and plays an intercept card
with Howler.
Player B burns the 4 temptation counters on Howler to take control of
her, before combat begins.
Is that legal, or would player B have to burn the counters before
Howler gained the intercept?
If Howler had a Raven spy, when would player B have to burn the
Temptation cards to avoid combat?
Player B thinks he can burn the Temptations anytime he wants.
Am I right?
Cheers,
Craig
Derek Ray
icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) mumbled
something about:
>Overall question: Is the correct sequence - play the card, completely
>declare the effect, then replace?
Replacement happens after playing the card. Declaring the effect is
part of playing the card. I'd say yes.
>1) Minion Tap
>
>Player A has 3 Lasombra in play, all who have several blood. Player A
>puts a Minion Tap on Gratiano, announces that he is minion tapping
>Gratiano, replaces the Minion Tap, and then moves 5 blood from
>Gratiano to his pool.
*honk* Improper procedure! =)
>I think the target AND quantity of blood should be declared as the
>Minion Tap is played, and before the MT is replaced (based on the last
>sentence of the rulebook excerpt below).
>
>Am I right?
I think you're right.
>If this *is* bad play, in a tournament, what should rectification be?
>
>Would player A shuffle the replacement card back into their library,
>and redeclare the MT amount *before* drawing up?
I wouldn't screw around with that because it takes SO much time, and
isn't likely to matter that much in a single specific instance; I'd just
give them a warning. Doing it for all 8 MT in your library over the
course of a game is going to have a lot more positive effect, on the
other hand... ;)
>1.6.1. General
*snip*
>up in the ash heap. The player completely declares the effect of the
>card when it is played.
See, you didn't even need to ask us. ;)
>2) Second Tradition
>
>Player C has 3 princes, two of whom are tapped. Player C is being
>bled. Player C plays 2nd tradition, replaces the card, and then
>announces which prince is blocking.
>
>I think this is the same type of bad play as the above, with the same
>tournament "fix". Am I right?
Again, I wouldn't screw around with the "fix", I'd just issue a warning.
Same bad play though.
>3) Seduction
>
>Player B taps Lazverinus, places Scouting Mission on the table, and
>announces that Lazverinus is bleeding for 2 (completely declaring the
>effect of the card).
>
>Player B knows better than to play Seduction or Sleeping Mind
>simultaneously with the action, since another player might wish to
>play DI or Rewind Time to cancel the Scouting Mission.
>
>Player B draws up to replace Scouting Mission. Player B notes that
>no-one has played DI.
>
>...so player B puts Seduction on the table, saying "Lazverinus seduces
>Gratiano for this action"
This is legal though. You can draw into Seduction and play it.
>Is this legal? I'm really not sure. There is obviously a timing window
>between the Scouting Mission and the Seduction (in which DI or Rewind
>Time can be played). What I want to know, is whether player B replaces
>his Scouting Mission during that timing window.
He's finished declaring the action and all terms thereof, and therefore
finished playing the card -- so he should replace it, since cards are
replaced immediately after they are played unless card text changes
this.
>4) Temptation.
>
>Player B controls several Followers of Set. His prey, player Y, has a
>tapped vampire, Howler, who has 4 blood, and 4 of player B's
>temptation counters on her.
>
>Player B attempts to hunt with Celine.
>
>Player Y plays Forced Awakening on Howler, and plays an intercept card
>with Howler.
>
>Player B burns the 4 temptation counters on Howler to take control of
>her, before combat begins.
And hopefully before he says "I'm blocked."
*snip*
>Player B thinks he can burn the Temptations anytime he wants.
Only if it's during his own minion phase.
-- Derek
Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
Hollowboy
> >
> >Player B taps Lazverinus, places Scouting Mission on the table, and
> >announces that Lazverinus is bleeding for 2 (completely declaring the
> >effect of the card).
> >
> >Player B knows better than to play Seduction or Sleeping Mind
> >simultaneously with the action, since another player might wish to
> >play DI or Rewind Time to cancel the Scouting Mission.
> >
> >Player B draws up to replace Scouting Mission. Player B notes that
> >no-one has played DI.
> >
> >...so player B puts Seduction on the table, saying "Lazverinus seduces
> >Gratiano for this action"
>
> This is legal though. You can draw into Seduction and play it.
>
my mostly self inflicted hand-jam (a Laz deck with Stupid Agaitas
Tricks).
At the time, I couldn't work out which was correct, and the other
player sounded so sure of himself, I just let his judgement stand.
> >Is this legal? I'm really not sure. There is obviously a timing window
> >between the Scouting Mission and the Seduction (in which DI or Rewind
> >Time can be played). What I want to know, is whether player B replaces
> >his Scouting Mission during that timing window.
>
> He's finished declaring the action and all terms thereof, and therefore
> finished playing the card -- so he should replace it, since cards are
> replaced immediately after they are played unless card text changes
> this.
>
Fair enough. I'm still hoping for the seal of LSJ-ness, though.
> >4) Temptation.
> >
> >Player B controls several Followers of Set. His prey, player Y, has a
> >tapped vampire, Howler, who has 4 blood, and 4 of player B's
> >temptation counters on her.
> >
> >Player B attempts to hunt with Celine.
> >
> >Player Y plays Forced Awakening on Howler, and plays an intercept card
> >with Howler.
> >
> >Player B burns the 4 temptation counters on Howler to take control of
> >her, before combat begins.
>
> And hopefully before he says "I'm blocked."
>
> *snip*
>
> >Player B thinks he can burn the Temptations anytime he wants.
>
> Only if it's during his own minion phase.
>
I was assuming "During Celine's hunt action" here. But I guess it
didn't hurt for you to specify.
THnaks.
LSJ
> Hollowboy mumbled something about:
>>Overall question: Is the correct sequence - play the card, completely
>>declare the effect, then replace?
> Replacement happens after playing the card. Declaring the effect is
> part of playing the card. I'd say yes.
Correct.
>>1) Minion Tap
>>Player A has 3 Lasombra in play, all who have several blood. Player A
>>puts a Minion Tap on Gratiano, announces that he is minion tapping
>>Gratiano, replaces the Minion Tap, and then moves 5 blood from
>>Gratiano to his pool.
>>I think the target AND quantity of blood should be declared as the
>>Minion Tap is played, and before the MT is replaced (based on the last
>>sentence of the rulebook excerpt below).
>>Am I right?
>
> I think you're right.
Correct.
>>If this *is* bad play, in a tournament, what should rectification be?
>>Would player A shuffle the replacement card back into their library,
>>and redeclare the MT amount *before* drawing up?
>
> I wouldn't screw around with that because it takes SO much time, and
> isn't likely to matter that much in a single specific instance; I'd just
> give them a warning. Doing it for all 8 MT in your library over the
> course of a game is going to have a lot more positive effect, on the
> other hand... ;)
If the judge feels that knowledge of the drawn card had an impact on the
number chosen, the backing up (reshuffling and redeclaring) seems the
proper remedy (unless any players already had knowledge of that next
card via some effect). The time, if it is "SO much", can be added to
the table (and not count against the time limit).
>>2) Second Tradition
>>Player C has 3 princes, two of whom are tapped. Player C is being
>>bled. Player C plays 2nd tradition, replaces the card, and then
>>announces which prince is blocking.
>>
>>I think this is the same type of bad play as the above, with the same
>>tournament "fix". Am I right?
>
> Again, I wouldn't screw around with the "fix", I'd just issue a warning.
> Same bad play though.
Same remedy as before, yes, since it is exactly the same violation.
>>3) Seduction
>>Player B taps Lazverinus, places Scouting Mission on the table, and
>>announces that Lazverinus is bleeding for 2 (completely declaring the
>>effect of the card).
>>
>>Player B knows better than to play Seduction or Sleeping Mind
>>simultaneously with the action, since another player might wish to
>>play DI or Rewind Time to cancel the Scouting Mission.
>>
>>Player B draws up to replace Scouting Mission. Player B notes that
>>no-one has played DI.
>>
>>...so player B puts Seduction on the table, saying "Lazverinus seduces
>>Gratiano for this action"
>
> This is legal though. You can draw into Seduction and play it.
So long as the pause ("notes that no-one has played DI") is for DI and
isn't so long as to purposefully draw out a block attempt or a reaction
card.
In general, when the acting Methuselah has decided that she is finished
declaring the action, she should signal so with "do you block?" or
somesuch. The DI can be played immediately. Block attempts/reactions
should be held until such a declaration (by 1.6.1.6)
>>Is this legal? I'm really not sure. There is obviously a timing window
>>between the Scouting Mission and the Seduction (in which DI or Rewind
>>Time can be played). What I want to know, is whether player B replaces
>>his Scouting Mission during that timing window.
>
> He's finished declaring the action and all terms thereof, and therefore
> finished playing the card -- so he should replace it, since cards are
> replaced immediately after they are played unless card text changes
> this.
Correct.
>>4) Temptation.
>>Player B controls several Followers of Set. His prey, player Y, has a
>>tapped vampire, Howler, who has 4 blood, and 4 of player B's
>>temptation counters on her.
>>Player B attempts to hunt with Celine.
>>Player Y plays Forced Awakening on Howler, and plays an intercept card
>>with Howler.
>>
>>Player B burns the 4 temptation counters on Howler to take control of
>>her, before combat begins.
>
> And hopefully before he says "I'm blocked."
>
>>Player B thinks he can burn the Temptations anytime he wants.
>
> Only if it's during his own minion phase.
Correct.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4g8o20h9d76k18k83...@4ax.com...
> In message <614f2a39.04021...@posting.google.com>,
> icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) mumbled
> something about:
> >1) Minion Tap
> >
> >Player A has 3 Lasombra in play, all who have several blood. Player A
> >puts a Minion Tap on Gratiano, announces that he is minion tapping
> >Gratiano, replaces the Minion Tap, and then moves 5 blood from
> >Gratiano to his pool.
[snip]
> >If this *is* bad play, in a tournament, what should rectification be?
> >
> >Would player A shuffle the replacement card back into their library,
> >and redeclare the MT amount *before* drawing up?
>
> I wouldn't screw around with that because it takes SO much time, and
> isn't likely to matter that much in a single specific instance; I'd
just
> give them a warning. Doing it for all 8 MT in your library over the
> course of a game is going to have a lot more positive effect, on the
> other hand... ;)
In a tournament, as a judge, I would usually make the person reshuffle.
It doesn't take all *that* much time to do it once, and they shouldn't
have to do it more than once, if they start playing right. :-) Yes,
the effect is probably not all that large in a single instance, but I
think it's better to negate it even so, as long as it's easy to do
(which it is if it's caught immediately).
Josh
doesn't mind applying the small tournament penalties