Do we need a new expansion?
Aaron Clark
initiative is admirable, I know that I do not want (or need) new cards
right now.
I am in favor of creating a source of tournament-legal reprints.
I am also in favor of creating reprints for the purpose of revising
card text, especially if such revisions address issues with certain
cards that may or may not have been thoroughly playtested (e.g.,
Liquidation, Villein, Lillith's Blessing...)
Can they create new cards anyway? Fans have done it for Star Wars
CCG, I heard. Can they get away with it if it's not-for-profit?
Peter D Bakija
> It looks like VEKN is starting to plan a new expansion. Although such
> initiative is admirable, I know that I do not want (or need) new cards
> right now.
Do we *need* a new expansion? Probably not. But people like that sort
of thing, so I guess they want to proceed if they can.
> I am in favor of creating a source of tournament-legal reprints.
I can't see why they couldn't do that as well.
Assuming that they can access the infrastructure to get cards printed
(which is probably pretty expensive, all things being equal, and would
probably require "ransom printing", i.e. people would have to pay up
front for boxes of cards, and when something like 500 boxes get sold,
they do a print run--this is how Shadowfist operates these days), I
can't see why they can't do both. Although the problem with getting
old cards reprinted is the art--you need new art, as they don't have
the rights (presumably) for the old art. So if they are going to need
to get all new art anyway, they might as well make all new cards.
> I am also in favor of creating reprints for the purpose of revising
> card text, especially if such revisions address issues with certain
> cards that may or may not have been thoroughly playtested (e.g.,
> Liquidation, Villein, Lillith's Blessing...)
The problem there is that I suspect not enough people will support
this idea. As much as, say, *I'd* like to see a bunch of cards get
tweaked (Villein, Pentex Subversion, Erycies Fragment, Parity Shift,
etc.), a whole lot of people are fundamentally opposed to changing
cards at this point, even if they can get reprinted with new wording.
As it will just continue to contribute to "Uh, yeah, that card doesn't
actually do what it says. Sorry..." that has been plaguing this game
for a very long time. I mean, again, I'd be totally ok with this. But
a whole lot of people wouldn't.
> Can they create new cards anyway? Fans have done it for Star Wars
> CCG, I heard. Can they get away with it if it's not-for-profit?
I imagine that they could. Again, I think the big issue is art--you
can't use old art without getting (paying for?) the rights again. So
they have to get new art by new artists. Which is presumably what
Gines is working on currently.
-Peter
Aaron Clark
>
> The problem there is that I suspect not enough people will support
> this idea. As much as, say, *I'd* like to see a bunch of cards get
> tweaked (Villein, Pentex Subversion, Erycies Fragment, Parity Shift,
> etc.), a whole lot of people are fundamentally opposed to changing
> cards at this point, even if they can get reprinted with new wording.
> As it will just continue to contribute to "Uh, yeah, that card doesn't
> actually do what it says. Sorry..." that has been plaguing this game
> for a very long time. I mean, again, I'd be totally ok with this. But
> a whole lot of people wouldn't.
>
Yes, I've noticed that most VTES players fall under the Judging end of
the Myers-Briggs personality test. The game has been vastly improved
by making revisions to previously printed cards, and many cards have
been saved from the wall (from being wallpapered, I mean). At the
same time, these changes make it frustrating to learn the game and
play with older cards.
Sometimes people in authority have the option of making unpopular
decisions in order to create a better future. (If they live in
Washington, D.C., they never take that option, but that's a different
topic.) As far as I can tell, Pascal Bertrand, with the backing of
the VEKN coordinators, could revise card text, at least for the
purpose of sanctioned tournaments.
What do you suppose a new set would consist of? I hear some people
griping about the lack of group 5 Sabbat. Honestly if it's all just
more of the same, I don't see the point. That guy with the negative
review of VTES on Boardgamegeek had a point - there haven't been much
in the way of paradigm changers for the game. If they do create a new
set, they should introduce a new way or ways of earning victory
points.
Peter D Bakija
> Yes, I've noticed that most VTES players fall under the Judging end of
> the Myers-Briggs personality test. The game has been vastly improved
> by making revisions to previously printed cards, and many cards have
> been saved from the wall (from being wallpapered, I mean). At the
> same time, these changes make it frustrating to learn the game and
> play with older cards.
Oh, I'm totally with you--I'm all for reprinting cards that are too
good with new, fixed text. I'm also all for banning things that are
just too powerful. I *vastly* prefer:
"This is kind of a pain in the ass, but it makes the game work much
better"
to
"I don't want to change things! Errata is bad!"
But that is me. And presumably you. The vast majority of people (who
care to make their opinion known on the interwebs) are outraged by the
idea of changing card texts, and inevitably fall under the rubric of
"If you think it is too powerful, put something in your deck to deal
with it!". To which I always point to the huge leaps and bounds the
game made when the significant number of 7/7 erratae were issued, and
that some constant minor tweaking is always beneficial to the game.
But people. They fear change. And "confusing new players".
> What do you suppose a new set would consist of?
No idea. I don't even know that there are specific plans under way at
this point. I'm pretty sure that the next expansion that was vaguely
planned (before the game died) had something to do with the Bahari,
whatever they are. But who knows what the current Powers That Be will
want to do.
-Peter
James Coupe
>If they do create a new set, they should introduce a new way or ways of
>earning victory points.
How would you do that without undermining the "spend pool/keep pool"
mechanic of the game?
If my pool gain is irrelevant because you (my predator) need to take 5
actions to put a counter on your Winning Big event, my prey gets a
completely different game. I can spend a lot more pool on vampires
because you're not bleeding me. The table becomes a lot, lot more
random.
This is already possible with Slaughterhouse to a limited extent, except
that it's very weak (in general).
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
GreenO
> Aaron Clark <aamacl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >If they do create a new set, they should introduce a new way or ways of
> >earning victory points.
>
> How would you do that without undermining the "spend pool/keep pool"
> mechanic of the game?
>
> If my pool gain is irrelevant because you (my predator) need to take 5
> actions to put a counter on your Winning Big event, my prey gets a
> completely different game. I can spend a lot more pool on vampires
> because you're not bleeding me. The table becomes a lot, lot more
> random.
>
I think there are a couple of ways around that. Something like:
Ultimate secrets of the true black hand
Master
10 pool
Requires 4 black hand seraphs
<this card> comes into play with 6 counters. During your untap phase
remove a counter.
Burn this card when it has no counters: your prey loses 21 pool.
Your pool gain isn't worthless and there's a feeling of impending
doom.
I think there's scope within the game for cards that deal, really,
crazy high pool loss if the player jumps through enough hoops to get
them on the table. It perhaps moves the game into the realms of combo
decks, but they are there anyway. I think cards like the above could
be crafted to be included in decks that take the view of: 'well, if I
get the right draw, that would be brutal'.
M.
Peter D Bakija
> I think there's scope within the game for cards that deal, really,
> crazy high pool loss if the player jumps through enough hoops to get
> them on the table. It perhaps moves the game into the realms of combo
> decks, but they are there anyway. I think cards like the above could
> be crafted to be included in decks that take the view of: 'well, if I
> get the right draw, that would be brutal'.
And while I don't necessarily know that making new "victory condition"
cards for VTES would work that well, Shadowfist managed to pull it off
in some of the later expansions--there are a few cards that say "Put
this card in play. If you posess it at the start of your turn after X
turns have passed and something happens, you win the game." Which
leads to people dropping these on the table, people fighting over
them, and eventually someone winning. They are very good for forcing
hands out of stalemates. That being said, Shadowfist is a different
game, but has many of the same dynamics as VTES.
-Peter
Aaron Clark
> Aaron Clark <aamacl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >If they do create a new set, they should introduce a new way or ways of
> >earning victory points.
>
> How would you do that without undermining the "spend pool/keep pool"
> mechanic of the game?
>
> If my pool gain is irrelevant because you (my predator) need to take 5
> actions to put a counter on your Winning Big event, my prey gets a
> completely different game. I can spend a lot more pool on vampires
> because you're not bleeding me. The table becomes a lot, lot more
> random.
>
ways to gain VPs in VTES. You can oust your prey, you can be the last
player in a game, you can survive to time, you can withdraw, you can
steal VPs from other players by using Life Boon.
It might be possible to explore withdrawal as a means to gain 2 VPs,
or other ways stealing VPs from others, or getting 1 VP for surviving
to time instead of 0.5, or indeed creating a sequence of events or
actions by which a player can earn a VP outright.
I think it would be interesting to have an expansion based around two
sects from the OWoD that have been heretofore been (mostly) ignored:
the Inconnu and the Children of Osiris. The expansion could be called
Golconda. I could see having Inconnu based actions and events that
would allow you to achieve "Golconda", either by gaining another VP
outright or by allowing you to attempt withdrawal without an empty
library. Based on the RPG, it would be something that required three
parts, probably a particular kind of minion in play, a master, an
action, and then a certain number of turns.
The same would hold true for the Children of Osiris, but the
conditions would be based on use of the Bardo discipline. Something
like [BAR] place this card in play, put a counter on it during your
untap; when this card has three counters you may attempt to withdraw
at any time without having an empty library. And then another Bardo
card or Children of Osirirs card that gives you an additional 0.5 VPs
or (1 VP in a tournament) for withdrawing.
The idea would generally be that you could use an alternative method
to gain supplemental VPs but it would be hard to win using such a
method without ousting your prey at some point. Obviously it would be
a very tricky game design question, and one that I don't think I'm up
to myself. Still, there are possibilities beyond just publishing new
vampires and cards that are just variations on old ones, except
slightly more powerful.
cnislev
> On Jul 22, 12:42 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:> Aaron Clark <aamacl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >If they do create a new set, they should introduce a new way or ways of
> > >earning victory points.
>
First, I agree with Aaron. I still think there is lots of fun to be
had with the VTES cards already out there. You still see new decks
being posted on this forum. However, new cards every two years or so
would be nice, the previous frequency being a bit too hectic I think.
This again depends on the format of new editions, and I hope/encourage
VEKN to think out of the box here if a new edition is in the pipelin.
What about some mini editions with just, say, 20 new cards? maybe only
vampires, or only non-vampires? there are tons of different formats
out there to be inspired from (living card game etc.). I know nothing
about the rights and economics of printing cards etc. and if this
would be possible
Second, interesting idea about new game mechanics. I stil think there
are some loose ends to be addressed in new editions (Bahari being the
most obvious), but new ways to gain VPs would definitely make new
editions more attractive.
Apart from being balanced, I think the important thing is that new
ways to gain VPs should reflect the background, i.e. they should
somehow show that a methusaleh has exerted a dominant influence over
the other players.
Suggestions:
Master card/event allowing players to gain 1+ VP from:
- ousting a methuselah other than prey
- burning X minions or vampires or locations or equipment of other
methuselahs, e.g. within set amount of turns
- having most minions/pool/votes/locations/equipment in play, or
having more of same than all other methuselahs together, continuously
for X turns
- from withdrawing (instead of the current 1/2 VP)
- causing your prey to lose more than X pool in total, X being
30/40/50 - this would curb slightly the current semi-issue re pool
gain being too easy (villein, lilliths blessing, liquidation/ashur
tablets, golconda etc. - I bled/voted Isak for 50+ in the Danish ECQ
2010 but he gained 70+ with Liquitablets, that kinda sucked...)
... all at adequate pool costs, and e.g. of limited duration (perhaps
X turns, or removeable like smiling jack/antediluvian awakening/
brothers grimm, and/or only effective from following turn/once one
methusaleh has been ousted).
However, as Aaron mentioned earlier (I think), complexity of the game
would increase which will make it even harder to learn for new
players...
Btw: Hi Aaron, you coming to Europe for EC in November?
Janne Hägglund
No!
No, no, no, a thousand times NO!
http://starwarsnoooos.ytmnd.com/
The reason being: that would utterly ruin the game. Remember the table
switch votes? They were banned just for that reason: ruining the
predator/prey relationship.
> - burning X minions or vampires or locations or equipment of other
> methuselahs, e.g. within set amount of turns
*cough* *Recalled to the Founder* *cough*
> - having most minions/pool/votes/locations/equipment in play, or
> having more of same than all other methuselahs together, continuously
> for X turns
most minions: do you really want to make weenie hordes *more* powerful?
> - from withdrawing (instead of the current 1/2 VP)
> - causing your prey to lose more than X pool in total, X being
> 30/40/50 - this would curb slightly the current semi-issue re pool
> gain being too easy (villein, lilliths blessing, liquidation/ashur
> tablets, golconda etc. - I bled/voted Isak for 50+ in the Danish ECQ
> 2010 but he gained 70+ with Liquitablets, that kinda sucked...)
So the issue is that you think bloat is too powerful. If bloat is too
powerful, then bloat should be nerfed, instead of rewarding power
bleeders.
HG
Aaron Clark
Yes, these were the kinds of things I was thinking about. I also like
it when releases are spaced apart, and there's no reason why huge sets
need to be released every time.
> Apart from being balanced, I think the important thing is that new
> ways to gain VPs should reflect the background, i.e. they should
> somehow show that a methusaleh has exerted a dominant influence over
> the other players.
Well, I like my Golconda idea, which is very much NOT about being
dominant. Mainly I like it because Golconda plays an important role
in the RPG and because it is a different kind of victory for a vampire
(and also because I am interested in Buddhist philosophy, which
obviously influenced the RPG philosophy of Golconda. Golconda is like
the vampire nirvana). It fits at least with the idea of withdrawing.
I am curious what RPG elements you might assign to your ideas.
Your ideas are all are about rewarding different deck styles. I would
see these effects working like events, in that everyone can use them.
So you can craft your deck to take advantage of an extra victory
condition, but if someone else is playing the same deck archetype as
you, they will also possibly beneft. Besides events and masters, some
minion cards might be considered, too. One the biggest concerns I
would have about these kinds of effects is how many VPs you might
earn. I think that 0.5 should be a baseline and 1 VP be the max you
can earn.
> - ousting a methuselah other than prey
I had never considered this. I could see a temporary event that
allowed everyone do this. This is good for vote decks, and KS bleeds
decks, I guess. Maybe you split the VP with the predator whose prey
you oust?
> - burning X minions or vampires or locations or equipment of other
> methuselahs, e.g. within set amount of turns
Rewards something other than stealth bleed!
> - causing your prey to lose more than X pool in total, X being
> 30/40/50 - this would curb slightly the current semi-issue re pool
> gain being too easy (villein, lilliths blessing, liquidation/ashur
> tablets, golconda etc. - I bled/voted Isak for 50+ in the Danish ECQ
> 2010 but he gained 70+ with Liquitablets, that kinda sucked...)
I'm not sure a lot of people would play something like this, since it
would require that your prey to have a bloat deck. But why not add it
to the arsenall? That's a crazy story, by the way.
cnislev
(perhaps
6 pool. Smiling Jack is pretty mental but you have to defend it and it
can be contested.
I do remember the table switch votes, I got ousted once by such a
vote. I think though that the main problem with those votes was that
you could wait for anyone to get weak and pounce immediately - hence
"and/or only effective from following turn" or even later turns. An
example:
Back against the wall
Pool cost (not sure)
During your next turn, if your predator is ousted you gain a VP
instead of your predator's predator.
- or even a card that allows you to gang up with another methusaleh to
oust a third methusaleh, and then you both gain a VP (or split the
VP). Just brainstorming here really...
But aside from pointing out obvious flaws which could easily be
addressed, what do you think about the general idea of being able to
gain VPs from other sources than ousting your prey? I just think it
somehow fits well with the background. An example: you have X amount
of powerbases down for X turns without them getting robbed of counters/
destroyed/stolen, then you have demonstrated your geopolitical
dominance (or whatever) and you gain a VP.
On 1 Aug., 16:06, h...@iki.fi (Janne Hägglund) wrote:
> HG- Skjul tekst i anførselstegn -
>
> - Vis tekst i anførselstegn -
cnislev
Master, pool cost [not sure]
Put 2 counters on this card when it comes into play. Add a counter to
this card if a minion you control burns a minion controlled by another
methuselah. Remove a counter from this card if a minion controlled by
another methuselah burns a minion controlled by another methuselah
than that methuselah. Burn this card if it has no counters. Burn this
card if it has [10] counters to gain a VP.
cnislev
>
> > Master card/event allowing players to gain 1+ VP from:
> > - ousting a methuselah other than prey
>
> No!
>
The Greater of Two Evils
[Unique] master, pool cost [not sure]
Choose a methuselah other than your predator. A methuselah cannot be
chosen unless both you and that methuselah have less pool than the
chosen methuselah's prey. From your next turn, if the chosen
methuselah's prey is ousted during your turn, you gain half a VP and
the chosen methuselah gains half a VP less for ousting his or her
prey. Any minion can burn this card as a (D) action.
Aaron Clark
Well, sometimes change can add new life to things. Since this is a
CCG, it is possible to have some modularity. That means that you
either play with new stuff or not, depending on the format you choose.
> This again depends on the format of new editions, and I hope/encourage
> VEKN to think out of the box here if a new edition is in the pipelin.
> What about some mini editions with just, say, 20 new cards? maybe only
Christian, I like this idea about experimenting with release formats.
Since the profit motive is no longer present, there won't be the
incentive to produce sets too frequently, and the releases can be
smaller or more distinct.
> Suggestions:
>
> Master card/event allowing players to gain 1+ VP from:
> - ousting a methuselah other than prey
> - burning X minions or vampires or locations or equipment of other
> methuselahs, e.g. within set amount of turns
I like your suggestions (not all quoted), although I think you would
have to look closely at the VP rewards for each item. I think half a
VP should be the average, with 1 VP being the max. But it depends.
Another way you could balance some of these things is by making them
events that anyone can profit from.
Each of your ideas helps a different deck archetype, which I think was
your idea.
> - causing your prey to lose more than X pool in total, X being
> 30/40/50
I think this is very funny. You should get a VP if you've bled
someone for 30 points and they haven't died, let's face it! It would
be a risk to include in a powerbleed deck since it is only useful if
your prey is a powerbloater. As an event it is a bit more interesting
since it hinders bloaters all around the table.
I just found another card that plays with VP awards: Gambit Accepted.
It seems too hard to use.
Christian, I am interested in knowing what kind of RPG theme you would
assign to your card ideas. The Bahari organization?
cnislev
thread and nothing is coming up...
The Lasombra
>OK, Im not sure whats going on but I have posted three replies to this
>thread and nothing is coming up...
I've seen them all.
Google groups isn't refreshing its newsgroup listing, Usenet however
still works exactly as designed.
Aaron Clark
>
> - Show quoted text -
Test - I've tried to reply to this post twice, and it hasn't gone
through despite saying "successful".
The Lasombra
>Test - I've tried to reply to this post twice, and it hasn't gone
>through despite saying "successful".
Yes, actually it has gone thru.
Google groups is not Usenet.
Usenet is working great and all of your posts have been received.
Only Google groups is failing to update.
Aaron Clark
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2011 09:24:54 -0700 (PDT), Aaron Clark wrote:
> >Test - I've tried to reply to this post twice, and it hasn't gone
> >through despite saying "successful".
>
> Yes, actually it has gone thru.
>
> Google groups is not Usenet.
>
> Usenet is working great and all of your posts have been received.
>
What is this Usenet of which you speak? I have heard legends of that
mythical realm but never the lore by which a weary traveler may find
entrance into its fabled halls.
HG
What a load of bullshit. "Weary traveler" my ass. So the issue is that
you think bloat is too powerful. If bloat is too powerful, then bloat
should be nerfed, instead of rewarding power bleeders?
Waffle on.
Absorbed
Me gots the maple syrup!
--
I am absorbed with Tom and I am proudly Tom's sockpuppet. Tom-Christ
is within me.
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
HG wrote:
Sorta Kinda!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
cnislev
> you think bloat is too powerful. If bloat is too powerful, then bloat
> should be nerfed, instead of rewarding power bleeders?
No I dont, but maybe I wasnt clear enough. Anyway, any (constructive)
comments from you to the following?:
"But aside from pointing out obvious flaws which could easily be
addressed, what do you think about the general idea of being able to
gain VPs from other sources than ousting your prey? I just think it
somehow fits well with the background. An example: you have X amount
of powerbases down for X turns without them getting robbed of
counters/
destroyed/stolen, then you have demonstrated your geopolitical
dominance (or whatever) and you gain a VP."
or to the following:
The Greater of Two Evils
[Unique] master, pool cost [not sure]
Choose a methuselah other than your predator. A methuselah cannot be
chosen unless both you and that methuselah have less pool than the
chosen methuselah's prey. From your next turn, if the chosen
methuselah's prey is ousted during your turn, you gain half a VP and
the chosen methuselah gains half a VP less for ousting his or her
prey. Any minion can burn this card as a (D) action.
- ganging up on others seems very much in the VTES spirit to me
Might is right
Master, pool cost [not sure]
Put 2 counters on this card when it comes into play. Add a counter to
this card if a minion you control burns a minion controlled by
another
methuselah. Remove a counter from this card if a minion controlled by
another methuselah burns a minion controlled by another methuselah
than that methuselah. Burn this card if it has no counters. Burn this
card if it has [10] counters to gain a VP.
Back against the wall
Master, pool cost (not sure)
If your predator is ousted during your next turn, you gain a VP
instead of your predator's predator.
(alternatively "..., you gain half a VP and your predator's predator
gains half a VP less for ousting his or her
prey.")
HG
> <snipped load of waffle>
You're a boring troll, pathetic.
Peter D Bakija
> No I dont, but maybe I wasnt clear enough. Anyway, any (constructive)
> comments from you to the following?:
(I'm pretty sure the "person" you are responding to is either randomly
trolling or if we are lucky, possibly a bot. Do not engage.)
I'm pretty sure the recent troll attack has missed out on the fact
that this newsgroup is basically dead already, due to the vast
majority of people being involved in this group migrating to a web BBS
recently. So they are performing to an empty house. But for a couple
stubborn stalwarts.
-Peter
1X2Willows
What group are you referring to?
Couldn't be alt.spirituality.druid for sure.
There's only me tolerating Dalton and filtering every response to the
already killfiled Alaskan loonjob with wannabe tits, as they trickle in.
Good day to you anyway
Dan
Peter D Bakija
> What group are you referring to?
>
> Couldn't be alt.spirituality.druid for sure.
Crap. Accidentally fell into the crossposting trap there. The jyhad
group here is the mostly dead one.
-Peter
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
now, with no sign of slowing down, or relenting to the Hunters!
But the Hunters shoot the ox in the ass again, they just might find out what
TAIN, is ALL ABOUT!
Lady Azure, Baroness of the North Pole
Just a Place where Brown Shirts go to pretend to be Bears!
Pussy Cats in Dog Shirts pissn all over the House!