After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for the North American Championship.
To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
Strike: Begin Discussion.
-- Oscar J Garza III Organized Play Coordinator White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
> After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for > the North American Championship.
> To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like > to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The > NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
> GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. > The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the > NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these > two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
> Strike: Begin Discussion.
Woo hoo! Woo hoo!
Can't wait to be there!
(okay so there's not much content to my discussion)
> (okay so there's not much content to my discussion)
Well, hey! There's some intelligent and refined discussion. ;-)
Congratulations to those who worked for this. I hope the improvements in the NAC that you were looking for are manifested in spades. (And I hope you're right about the WoN still being viable, Robert.)
> After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for > the North American Championship.
> To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like > to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The > NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
Yay! My first opportunity to be at both the NAC and WoN is on the horizon! Sign me up (after Robyn, of course)... Uh oh. Now I'll have to treat those qualifiers with an actual degree of seriousness about the results...
> GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. > The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the > NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these > two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
Sounds like fun, too. I wonder if there will be any differential in weighting the two components? I'm a rabid fan of limited play, but I could see how others wouldn't consider results within it to be quite as significant as standard constructed in naming a national champ...
Now that we have the rotating venue option to discuss, what about a re-evaluation of the qualifying process? Will the NAC still be a multi-day event? My point here is partially derived from a recent post by the Lasombra (regarding the fact that approximately 74 players are currently qualified for the 2005 NAC due to the 25% rule), and that point is why have a qualifying process at all? If you are having a multiple day championship, why not let everyone who wants to travel and play V:TES play? Construct the event similar to a golf event. Day One you have to make a certain "score" to make the cut and advance to Day Two. I've attended a bunch of qualifiers and a couple of NAC's. In my opinion, the qualifying process is inefficient in "selecting" the higher quality players (feel free to go back and look at some numbers, especially the statistical significance of allowing 25% at an event with 14 players vs an event with 60-still think qualifiers produce the "best players"?). So if the NAC goes to a multi-day event, why shoot ourselves in the foot and exclude players? Give the casual player (who's on a limited time and money budget) a shot at the NAC title by only requiring them to attend one major event. If you're worried about the level of play at these events, why not institute a "non-travel" qualification. Say something like a "Career Game" requirement, or some kind of point system. That way as long as players are attending and participating in V:TES events (local or not), they are earning a spot in the NAC. Anyways, just some ideas as I see the problem in my area is most players lack the funds to attend multiple events that require travel and lodging-especially since there is always the option of "failure" (ie you miss the 25% cutoff). Let's be realistic and back off on this whole process and make it more favorable to getting the casual player (with NAC tournament dreams) out of their house/local store and out into the moonlight. If we had the numbers like other card games, I would agree with a more structured system. But let's take another look at the whole process that leads up to the rotating NAC and see if we can make it better...
> So if the NAC goes to a multi-day event, why shoot > ourselves in the foot and exclude players? Give the casual player > (who's on a limited time and money budget) a shot at the NAC title by > only requiring them to attend one major event. If you're worried about > the level of play at these events, why not institute a "non-travel" > qualification. Say something like a "Career Game" requirement, or some > kind of point system. That way as long as players are attending and > participating in V:TES events (local or not), they are earning a spot > in the NAC.
That would be highly unfair. As I've pointed out, time and again, paricipation in VtES events hinges on the OPPORTUNITY to participate in VtES events. So I'm sure this concept sounds all kinky and cool when you happen to live in an area that offers a large number of VtES events locally and yet many more within close-by driving distance. Then the only issue is, "How much time do I want to spend on this?" It's a whole lot different for people out in the hinterlands who have to wait eagerly for their two or three VEKN tournaments within two hours driving distance each year.
You've actually come up with a system that's a whole lot _more_ difficult for many casual gamers. At least the current qualifying system only requires attendence at one qualifying event, assuming you do well.
Frederick Scott wrote: > "bspaul" <bspau...@excite.com> wrote in message > > So if the NAC goes to a multi-day event, why shoot > > ourselves in the foot and exclude players? Give the casual player > > (who's on a limited time and money budget) a shot at the NAC title by > > only requiring them to attend one major event. If you're worried about > > the level of play at these events, why not institute a "non-travel" > > qualification. Say something like a "Career Game" requirement, or some > > kind of point system. That way as long as players are attending and > > participating in V:TES events (local or not), they are earning a spot > > in the NAC.
> That would be highly unfair. As I've pointed out, time and again, > paricipation in VtES events hinges on the OPPORTUNITY to participate > in VtES events. [clip] > You've actually come up with a system that's a whole lot _more_ > difficult for many casual gamers. At least the current qualifying > system only requires attendence at one qualifying event, assuming > you do well.
Isn't his main proposal that we drop the qualifying requirement altogether making participation in the NAC much easier and more fair for people who can't easily attend qualifying events? The part you're objecting to is an additional idea that doesn't seem to be the core of the proposal (stuff about ensuring the quality is high at the events).
Actually, I think the main idea about no qualifiers sounds interesting (I could do without the other stuff).
> Frederick Scott wrote: >> "bspaul" <bspau...@excite.com> wrote in message >> > If you're worried about >> > the level of play at these events, why not institute a "non-travel" >> > qualification. Say something like a "Career Game" requirement, or some >> > kind of point system. That way as long as players are attending and >> > participating in V:TES events (local or not), they are earning a spot >> > in the NAC.
>> That would be highly unfair. As I've pointed out, time and again, >> paricipation in VtES events hinges on the OPPORTUNITY to participate >> in VtES events.
> Isn't his main proposal that we drop the qualifying requirement > altogether making participation in the NAC much easier and more fair > for people who can't easily attend qualifying events? The part you're > objecting to is an additional idea that doesn't seem to be the core of > the proposal (stuff about ensuring the quality is high at the events).
Yep. I posted to say I don't care for the additional idea.
> Actually, I think the main idea about no qualifiers sounds interesting > (I could do without the other stuff).
Agreed, the main idea is worth talking about - without the additional Career Game requirement part.
> After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for > the North American Championship.
> To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like > to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The > NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
> GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. > The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the > NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these > two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
> Strike: Begin Discussion.
I am certainly pleased that White Wolf has settled the issue promptly. This way, everyone can begin to make the necessary preparations ASAP.
I think the rotating qualifier brings distinct advantages as well as disadvantages.
Atlanta is assuredly a very fine city and I would love to visit it again. And I also think it is wise to avoid DragonCon for the NAC (choosing that venue would negate many of the arguments made against GenCon concerning big conventions as venue).
I do have some concerns about the date however. It is my perception that when choosing a date outside of summer, you run the risk of scheduling conflicts. School, work, and/or family life may not be as amenable to taking several days off (or an entire week for the Week of Nightmares) when it is *not* during the summer.
November/December are poor choices because they may overlap with the holiday rush. I do concede that the Columbus Day weekend would be the best choice for the month of October. I would like to point out that Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was. It is still a Federal Holiday (so it's convenient for government employees) and primary/secondary schools have the day off. However, AFAIK most universities and companies do *not* grant time off for the holiday. Thus any NAC plans should *not* be under the assumption that players will have the upcoming Monday off (as college students and non-government employees may not).
In addition, according to my calendar, Columbus Day falls on Monday, October 9th in 2006 (not the 12th).
Assuming that the Limited and Constructed portions fall on different days, I'm curious as to whether people feel that Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun would be the best arrangement. My initial feeling is that Sat/Sun would be useful in allowing people to fly in just for the weekend. However, flying back Sunday night may not necessarily be feasible, especially if the Sunday tourney is delayed.
What sort of format will the Limited event be? From my experience, booster draft tends to be more challenging than starter draft but YMMV. How will card sets and drafting pods be determined?
Finally, I'm curious how the combined score will be used for the two different events. Are the two events weighted equally? 40/60? 70/30? Will you simply add together the Rating Points (after factoring in weights) or do you have a different method in mind?
echiang...@yahoo.com wrote: > I am certainly pleased that White Wolf has settled the issue promptly. > This way, everyone can begin to make the necessary preparations ASAP.
I would think that for most people, "ASAP" is more 'As Soon as Necessary', given the almost-15-months notice. :) I personally feel zero urgency to prepare anything about this before _this_ year's NAC wraps up, for instance, and likely won't care much before at least the New Year.
> I do have some concerns about the date however. It is my perception > that when choosing a date outside of summer, you run the risk of > scheduling conflicts. School, work, and/or family life may not be as > amenable to taking several days off (or an entire week for the Week of > Nightmares) when it is *not* during the summer.
On the other hand, the summer has numerous conflicts already, such as people's desire to take vacations (often with their family/loved ones) during the summer that do NOT involve VTES (I know, heresy!)
Also, Origins, Gen*Con, and DragonCon are already within a nine-week span of summer, and will presumably all continue to have VTES events, making squeezing a 4th major VTES event in there a bit much for WW people, no doubt.
> November/December are poor choices because they may overlap with the > holiday rush. I do concede that the Columbus Day weekend would be the > best choice for the month of October. I would like to point out that > Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was. It is still a > Federal Holiday (so it's convenient for government employees) and > primary/secondary schools have the day off. However, AFAIK most > universities and companies do *not* grant time off for the holiday. > Thus any NAC plans should *not* be under the assumption that players > will have the upcoming Monday off (as college students and > non-government employees may not).
Agreed. Choosing Columbus Day means some people will have the Monday off, but don't schedule events as if everyone will.
> Assuming that the Limited and Constructed portions fall on different > days, I'm curious as to whether people feel that Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun > would be the best arrangement. My initial feeling is that Sat/Sun would > be useful in allowing people to fly in just for the weekend. However, > flying back Sunday night may not necessarily be feasible, especially if > the Sunday tourney is delayed.
The Sunday tournament would be nigh-impossible to delay, given that Gen*Con ends the convention at an earlier hour on Sunday. If held on Sunday, the event would need to start early so as to end before the convention kicks people out in the late afternoon. Which might be convienent for weekend fliers.
> What sort of format will the Limited event be? From my experience, > booster draft tends to be more challenging than starter draft but YMMV. > How will card sets and drafting pods be determined?
Thankfully, we have over a year to discuss and determine this, since Oscar's effectively asked us to do so.
> Finally, I'm curious how the combined score will be used for the two > different events. Are the two events weighted equally? 40/60? 70/30? > Will you simply add together the Rating Points (after factoring in > weights) or do you have a different method in mind?
Again, we have a lot of time to discuss this, and Oscar's invited us to do so in this thread (as opposed to dictating how it'll be.)
echiang...@yahoo.com wrote: > I am certainly pleased that White Wolf has settled the issue promptly. > This way, everyone can begin to make the necessary preparations ASAP.
> snip > November/December are poor choices because they may overlap with the > holiday rush. I do concede that the Columbus Day weekend would be the > best choice for the month of October. I would like to point out that > Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was. It is still a > Federal Holiday (so it's convenient for government employees) and > primary/secondary schools have the day off. However, AFAIK most > universities and companies do *not* grant time off for the holiday. > Thus any NAC plans should *not* be under the assumption that players > will have the upcoming Monday off (as college students and > non-government employees may not).
> In addition, according to my calendar, Columbus Day falls on Monday, > October 9th in 2006 (not the 12th).
Columbus Day is observed on the second Monday of October, while the actual holiday itself is 12 October (the date Columbus first laid foot in Haiti).
> Assuming that the Limited and Constructed portions fall on different > days, I'm curious as to whether people feel that Fri/Sat or Sat/Sun > would be the best arrangement. My initial feeling is that Sat/Sun would > be useful in allowing people to fly in just for the weekend. However, > flying back Sunday night may not necessarily be feasible, especially if > the Sunday tourney is delayed.
Uhh, I think you're mixing events here. Oscar mentioned a limited and constructed portion to the US Championship, to be held at GenCon in 2006. I think the NAC won't have such a component to determining the winner(ie. it'll still be constructed, only).
Atom Weaver wrote: > Uhh, I think you're mixing events here. Oscar mentioned a limited and > constructed portion to the US Championship, to be held at GenCon in > 2006. I think the NAC won't have such a component to determining the > winner(ie. it'll still be constructed, only).
However, Im sure the days of the WoN could pick some limited tournys up nicely.
"bspaul" <bspau...@excite.com> wrote in message >> > So if the NAC goes to a multi-day event, why shoot >> > ourselves in the foot and exclude players? Give the casual player >> > (who's on a limited time and money budget) a shot at the NAC title by >> > only requiring them to attend one major event. If you're worried about >> > the level of play at these events, why not institute a "non-travel" >> > qualification. Say something like a "Career Game" requirement, or some >> > kind of point system. That way as long as players are attending and >> > participating in V:TES events (local or not), they are earning a spot >> > in the NAC.
......
> Isn't his main proposal that we drop the qualifying requirement > altogether making participation in the NAC much easier and more fair > for people who can't easily attend qualifying events? The part you're > objecting to is an additional idea that doesn't seem to be the core of > the proposal (stuff about ensuring the quality is high at the events).
> Actually, I think the main idea about no qualifiers sounds interesting > (I could do without the other stuff).
Scapping the qualifiers is an interesting idea, but to do it only for North American events kinda penalizes those North Americans who qualify here and then go to play in other-continent championships.
We have a system where a reward of qualifying is that you qualify anywhere. How would North Americans intending to travel, qualify if there are no North American qualifiers?
> I do have some concerns about the date however. It is my perception > that when choosing a date outside of summer, you run the risk of > scheduling conflicts. School, work, and/or family life may not be as > amenable to taking several days off (or an entire week for the Week of > Nightmares) when it is *not* during the summer.
On the bright side I suppose I'll be saving a significant amount of money over the course of a few years when it's not in the summer, and specifically not in late summer. I personally do not like the change since as a grad student in the program I'm in I cannot get time off except over Christmas and late in August because of certain yearly obligations in mid-August. Depending upon my yearly progress a vacation earlier in the year may be possible but very unlikely, however, if WW thinks it's for the best then I'll assume they've done the proper research, or at least the proper consideration, and won't argue. As for taking a weekend off, weekends for a grad student, at least for me and the people I work with, tend to be rather unpredictable regarding whether or not I can take work off, and while I have planned around it before, for instance to attend this year's South Central Qualifier, I just happened to get somewhat lucky that weekend, and in all honesty, probably shouldn't have taken that weekend off. I'm not just saying that, the weekend was a great time but there are certainly concrete reasons I say that. In any case, I'm sure my situation isn't universal, isn't experienced by the majority, nor even experienced by a non-trivial minority, but I just wanted to vent since I'm really not excited about this change at all, and Eric's post happened to provide a convenient segue into what appears to be a relatively long rant I'm writing after not really sleeping for about a week.
> I would like to point out that > Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was.
Canada does not celebrate Columbus Day. We do however celebrate our Thanksgiving on the same date. Given the traditional activities of Thanksgiving, it is not likely that many Canadians will be in attendance at a tournament held on that weekend.
I'm not really sure if Mexico celebrates Columbus Day or not. Wikipedia mentions something called Dia de La Raza, which may or may not be on the same date.
So, Columbus Day weekend might be more appropriate for the *US* championship rather than the North American championship.
> > I would like to point out that > > Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was.
> Canada does not celebrate Columbus Day. We do however celebrate our > Thanksgiving on the same date. Given the traditional activities of > Thanksgiving, it is not likely that many Canadians will be in attendance at > a tournament held on that weekend.
That's a bummer. Oscar, I'd say this is a pretty big issue. Think we may need a different weekend.
The Monday holiday for some folks is nice but probably not a deal-breaker. We could easily go with a weekend where Monday's not a holiday.
> After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for > the North American Championship.
> To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like > to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The > NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
> GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. > The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the > NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these > two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
> Strike: Begin Discussion.
> -- > Oscar J Garza III > Organized Play Coordinator > White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
Despite any disbelieves, I SWEAR, these changes were not so much the Europeans fault this time ;)
>> After much discussion, White Wolf has decided to rotate the venue for >> the North American Championship.
>> To make it easy, the 2006 NAC will take place in Atlanta. I would like >> to offer October 12, Columbus Day, as the weekend for the event. The >> NAC will be the final tournament at the Week of Nightmares 2006.
>> GenCon's major event will be replaced with a US National Championship. >> The constructed portion of the USNC is the GenCon qualifier for the >> NAC. There will also be a limited portion. The combined score for these >> two tournaments determines the US National Champion.
>> Strike: Begin Discussion.
>> -- >> Oscar J Garza III >> Organized Play Coordinator >> White Wolf Publishing, Inc.
> Despite any disbelieves, I SWEAR, these changes were not so much the > Europeans fault this time ;)
> Andreas
Btw: As a European player I will support any nominations for the NAC 2007 in California (GenConSoCal). That way I could combine a fine beach holiday with VTES and a maybe trip to Las Vegas.
>>> I would like to point out that >>>Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was.
>>Canada does not celebrate Columbus Day. We do however celebrate our >>Thanksgiving on the same date. Given the traditional activities of >>Thanksgiving, it is not likely that many Canadians will be in attendance at >>a tournament held on that weekend.
> That's a bummer. Oscar, I'd say this is a pretty big issue. Think we > may need a different weekend.
> The Monday holiday for some folks is nice but probably not a > deal-breaker. We could easily go with a weekend where Monday's not a > holiday.
October will be also dangerously close to the European Championship :-/
I am all for it. I am totally sick of going to one or two faraway tournaments each year with a totally stupid S&B deck just to make sure that I qualify.
> Atom Weaver wrote: >> Uhh, I think you're mixing events here. Oscar mentioned a limited and >> constructed portion to the US Championship, to be held at GenCon in >> 2006. I think the NAC won't have such a component to determining the >> winner(ie. it'll still be constructed, only).
> However, Im sure the days of the WoN could pick some limited tournys up > nicely.
>> I would like to point out that >> Columbus Day is not as widely celebrated as it once was.
> Canada does not celebrate Columbus Day. We do however celebrate our > Thanksgiving on the same date. Given the traditional activities of > Thanksgiving, it is not likely that many Canadians will be in attendance > at a tournament held on that weekend.
Right. Everyone seems a little confused here. I thought that Oscar was suggesting that the Week of Nightmares would _start_ with the long weekend, and culminate with the NAC (beginning with the LCQ) events on Thursday October 12th through Sunday October 15th... Meaning a person with any obligation on Monday October 9th would only miss the front-end start up festivities of the WoN, and would certainly be able to make it down in time for the actual NAC competition...
> I'm not really sure if Mexico celebrates Columbus Day or not. Wikipedia > mentions something called Dia de La Raza, which may or may not be on the > same date.
Dia de La Raza (Day of the Race) celebrates the establishment of the Latino-american race in the New World, although I don't know how Central Americans observe the holiday (which would affect their liklihood to attend the most)... Anyone know? It falls on the the day of 12 October every year.
> Btw: As a European player I will support any nominations for the NAC > 2007 in California (GenConSoCal). That way I could combine a fine beach > holiday with VTES and a maybe trip to Las Vegas.
We've been working on our proposal since even before we knew of the official announcement! :) I think we've got a great shot at getting approval from WW for NAC 2007.
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