Enkil Cog play etiquette
Petri Wessman
weirdness, flamewars and popcorn.
On the practical side, I'd like clarification on how one should play
it. Obviously, in many cases you'd like to play it when your predator
has finished all his/her minion actions (i.e. at the end of their
minion phase).
Can I just interrupt the predator when he/she moves on to discard/
influence, saying "wait a sec, at the end of your minion phase my
minion X [with EC] will take an action"?
Or should I pre-announce it ("when you are finished with your minion
phase tell me, I may want to take an action" or some such)?
I would assume both options to be ok, since in this game you cannot
deny others opportunities to play cards or do actions by speed-
playing... but just to avoid disagreements and confusion at playtime,
I'd like a confirm :).
//Petri
Blooded Sand
Petri, it is simple. When you play the Cog, stab a large dagger into
the table. Then inform everyone that it is a reminder that you can act
whenever you feel like it, so if they would be so kind as to ask you
before ending their minion phase, as you might feel like doing
something. Then um and ah every, sngle, time, allowing you to time out
all games you play in.
;)
Petri Wessman
> Petri, it is simple. When you play the Cog, stab a large dagger into
> the table.
I like the way you think :D
Grah, I hadn't even considered the game delay possibilities of Enkil
Cog. Ze horror.
//Petri
James Coupe
s.com>, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> writes:
>Ok, as everyone knows Enkil Cog is a fun card that allows for fun
>weirdness, flamewars and popcorn.
>
>On the practical side, I'd like clarification on how one should play
>it. Obviously, in many cases you'd like to play it when your predator
>has finished all his/her minion actions (i.e. at the end of their
>minion phase).
>
>Can I just interrupt the predator when he/she moves on to discard/
>influence, saying "wait a sec, at the end of your minion phase my
>minion X [with EC] will take an action"?
>
>Or should I pre-announce it ("when you are finished with your minion
>phase tell me, I may want to take an action" or some such)?
Simpler etiquette would be for your predator to ask "Enkil?" at the end
of his actions, much like he could ask "Anything from the Madness
Network?"
You're not required to pre-announce it, however - although you might
care to do so on JOL, where that sort of thing would be handy. I don't
think anyone would have a problem with you saying "I *might* want to
take an action", but you'd need to make sure they didn't take that as "I
*will* take an action."
Butting in a couple of terms to decide at the right point would, I
expect, be enough for any play-group to start asking you anyway.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
as...@hotmail.com
I don´t understand the problem really. Is this for JOL maybe?
Otherwise it´s simple - all players have a say about when your minion
phase (or any phase) is over. You can never "rush" to the next phase.
Play slowly, play carefully. Although you have no obligation to ask/
remind other players to use Enkil/Network/whatever, you should get
through the phases slowly enough so that any other player can interfer
in your turn.
Rehlow
That's nothing compared to the dick move you can do if you control the
vamp with Enkil Cog. Near the beginning of someone else's Minion Phase
you ask if they will pass priority so that you can take an action.
Then if they are curious to see what you want to do and pass you
priority you then also pass. Their Minion Phase is now over. You used
to be able to do it in Magic and I forget why you can't anymore. I'm
pretty sure you can do it in Vampire, but maybe there is something I
am missing.
Later,
~Rehlow
Meej
> That's nothing compared to the dick move you can do if you control the
> vamp with Enkil Cog.
> You used
> to be able to do it in Magic and I forget why you can't anymore. I'm
> pretty sure you can do it in Vampire, but maybe there is something I
> am missing.
Well, there's that whole "sportsmanship" clause in the VEKN rules (2.3
and 5.2)... seems to me that if you're not very careful how you'd
phrased it, it'd definitely push the envelope on that.
- D.J.
Dasein
That's not a "dick move" at all. The only person being the dick there
is the person who turn it is i.e. the person without the cog. They
pass priority becuase they are "curious" to see what the cog player
will do?? Then they are stupid and do not understand one of the most
fundamental mechanics of the game.
Priority is not rocket science. I am constantly confounded by people
who do not understand it.
It's very simple. If you have priority, you can do something. If you
don’t want to do something, you pass priority. How hard is that to
understand?? Yes the Enkil Cog player gets to watch what you do first.
Deal with it. Have you turn anyway. If you want to play bluff /
fakeout games with the Cog player, that’s YOUR decision and YOU own
the risk i.e. that the player can pass and leave you without a turn.
It’s not unfair, it’s not a rort, it’s just how the system of priority
works.
As far as play etiquette goes, it’s simple. The active player has
priority. They can announce an action or effect. If they do so,
priority to play cards and effects goes back to them. As soon as they
want to stop playing cards / effects, other players can. Etc. As soon
as the active player has priority and passes it, it goes to other
players to act or play effects. If other players play cards or
effects, priority resets to the active player. And so on, until all
players pass priority.
This is not new. IT IS ALREADY IN THE GAME. Say I (your predator) want
to use my Barrens in your minion phase. Who knows why, just say I do.
I have a right to do that. I have a right to say “hang on, before you
transfer, I am going to use my Barrens.” Now in the current rules,
that has to happen during the minion phase, not at the end of it.
There is no more “end of the minion phase” window. There’s during it,
and after it (influence phase). But again, a player with priority has
to eventually pass it. (assuming they are not carrying out an
infinitely long series of actions). When they do, other players get
priority. If they do something, the priority circle restarts, with the
active player receiving it.
Now, normally people don’t announce their passing of priority because
it doesn’t matter. And that’s fine. If someone has an Enkil Cog, or a
Madness Network, it’s an easy change. Just make sure when you are done
with your actions (or, if you feel like playing silly bluff games with
another player, *at your own risk*), you say “I’m done here. Anyone?
Bueller? No. Onto transfers.”
It’s a simple system. It’s been in the game forever. The only changes
are:
- There is now another card besides Madness Network that lets you act
outside your turn (Enkil Cog), so the scenarios where you should
probably announce passing of priority has slightly increased.
- It is no longer possible to act or use effects in a player’s minion
phase but after all that player’s actions have been completed. So
someone acting with the network / cog resets priority and the active
player can do stuff. Also closes the silly Rutor’s Hand / untap with
no blood loophole.
If you end up getting bluffed out and left without a chance to take
any actions, you have only yourself to blame.
bwross
> That's not a "dick move" at all. The only person being the dick there
> is the person who turn it is i.e. the person without the cog.
A person who falls for such a "trick" is the patsy (not the dick) in
that transaction. Pulling this trick is essentially making and
breaking a deal immediately. So if you see someone trying to do that,
you know exactly what kind of player they are... a dick. I recommend
warning other players of what they're trying to pull so that everyone
knows how much a deal is worth with that player.
Brent Ross
librarian
Exactly, breaking deals is the best thing in this game. If you ain't
breaking deals, you're missing half the game.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
www.superfuncards.com *NEW Website!*
auct...@superfuncards.com
Dasein
> and 5.2)... seems to me that if you're not very careful how you'd
> phrased it, it'd definitely push the envelope on that.
>
> - D.J.
There is nothing REMOTELY unsportsmanlike about the scenario
described. Just stupid.
It goes like this.
Player A (active player): "I don't want to take any actions this
turn."
Player B (another player/s): "I don't want to take any actions this
turn."
Turn is over.
How is player B being unsportsmanlike?? They are supposed to go "oh
poor guy, he is trying to fake me out. I better not leave him in the
lurch. I will hunt or something with my fattie vampire so he can then
rush me." Pfft. What utter nonsense.
If player A wanted to take an action, *they should have done so in
their freaking turn like they are supposed to*. If they pass, they
pass. Their decision. Nobody else's.
To recap:
This is not 'breaking a deal'.
This is not being 'unsportsmanlike'.
IF YOU PASS YOUR TURN, YOU ARE DONE. IF YOU WANT TO TAKE ACTIONS,
TAKE THEM.
It's not rocket science, seriously.
Frederick Scott
news:8a3254f9-62f7-456d...@f13g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
I'm confused why anyone would ever say "yes" to such a question. Aren't
you basically asking if they want to end their minion phase, now? Or
could they take further actions if the Enkil Cog vampire does choose to
take an action?
If yes on that last question, is that now also true of Madness Network?
Fred
Chris Berger
>
> I'm confused why anyone would ever say "yes" to such a question. Aren't
> you basically asking if they want to end their minion phase, now? Or
> could they take further actions if the Enkil Cog vampire does choose to
> take an action?
>
> If yes on that last question, is that now also true of Madness Network?
>
That's kinda the whole point of the thread.
In answer to Dasein, who said that passing and then having the Enkil
Cog minion pass is not "breaking a deal"... you are missing the
point. The actual conversation doesn't go, "I pass." "I pass, your
minion phase is over." It goes, "could you let me take an action with
my Enkil Cog minion?" "Sure." "I pass, your turn's over." *That* is
the dick move, and generally preys on the acting methuselah not
realize that answering yes to a simple request will screw him. In a
casual game, there's no way I would force the acting methuselah to end
his turn, particularly if he didn't know the rule. In a tournament,
well... buyer beware. Make sure you know this rule.
The way the conversation *should* go is, "if I let you take an action,
do you vow to actually take an action, and not pass in order to screw
me over, and then maybe give me something in return?" "yes" "okay, I
pass" "I pass, your turn's over, bi-atch" "You deal-breaking sonofa
bitch, I'm gonna kill you."
wedge
> "Rehlow" <newsgr...@rehlow.com> wrote in message
Yes it is also true for Madness Network.
A reason to pass priority before tapping out
Your prey controls Victoria or Using the Advantage w/Enkil Cog or
Madness Network
Matt
Dasein
> you basically asking if they want to end their minion phase, now?
Pretty much, yeah.
> Or could they take further actions if the Enkil Cog vampire does choose to
> take an action?
Yes they can. It works on the Priority system, which is used in this
game, Tragic the Bothering, and a bunch of others.
It's quite simple, though people seem confused by it.
> If yes on that last question, is that now also true of Madness Network?
Yes. Cog and Network both now follow the new rules, which are really
the sensible old priority rules, rather than a weird magical timeslot
that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
OK Priority explained. In a given VTES phase, the active player has
priority. They can choose to play cards or effects. If it is the
minion phase, they can also announce actions. If the active player
plays a card or effect or announces an action, then priority
immediately goes to that player. I.e. I can announce a
I can announce a bleed, and then tap my Barrens before anyone has a
chance to do anything else. And then when B arrens resolves I get
first chance to do something else again i.e. play Seduction that I’ve
just drawn. At a certain point, assuming I do not have infinite cards
or effects to play, I pass priority. Now priority moves to the next
player clockwise, and they can play cards and effects. Interesting
point: if they do, priority resets, not to that player, but to the
active player. E.g. my prey plays Forced Awakening, priority goes to
me, and I can now tap my Dreams to increase my hand size by 2.
Everytime anyone does anything, priority resets to the active player,
always. If/when that player passes, priority tries to go around the
circle again. If the next clockwise player passes, it goes to the next
player, and so on. As soon as a full circle of passes is complete,
that’s that. Nobody gets priority again. If it’s an action, the
current action resolves (which may actually invoke priority again,
e.g. entering combat, where the active player gets to play pre-ranged
cards or other effects first). If it’s a phase (e.g. the discard
phase, or minion phase, or whatever), the phase ends, because nobody
wants to do anything.
This has always been the case. Always. If it’s my discard phase, and I
say “I’m not doing anything”, and nobody else does anything, I can’t
say “Oh wait, if none of you are doing anything, I’m using my
Barrens”. That doesn’t work and never has. The phase ends. You had
your chance, you did nothing. (of course you can now use your Barrens
during your prey’s turn, so generally, it’s no big deal, but sometimes
it is, e.g. in the case of Enkil Cog).
There are two cards that let you act outside your turn: Madness
Network and now Enkil Cog. Madness Network used to happen in a strange
and unnecessary phase that was inside the minion phase but after all
actions have been done. This allowed a silly loophole with Rutor’s
Hand, and was just kinda dumb. So it’s gone. Madness Network actions
now happen in the minion phase, just like other stuff that can happen
in the minion phase. E.g. I can tap my Barrens in my minion phase. Or
somebody else’s minion phase. I can declare an action in my minion
phase. Or (if I have a Network / Cog), in someone else’s minion phase.
Enkil Cog follows the same rules as Madness Network now does. You can
act in someone else’s minion phase, following the normal priority
rules. If everybody passes, the phase is over. If you don’t act, and
nobody else acts, the minion phase ends, because nobody wanted to do
anything. If somebody does something, other players get a chance to
reconsider their whole “I’m not doing anything” stance, because the
game state has changed. E.g. I have an untapped Enkidu with a Cog.
It’s my prey’s turn. He has two princes. He declares no actions. I
decide to rush and bin one of his princes. He gets priority (after
resolving the action), and decides to Parity Shift me backwards out of
the game with his other prince. It’s fair that he can be able to
reconsider his whole “I’m not taking actions” thing, since I have
changed the game state by out of turn rushing with Enkidu.
Of course after he does that, priority passes around the table, and
maybe HIS prey (playing Malks with Madness Network) decide to
backtable Kindred Spirits HIM out of the game
Some people are saying its “unfair” or “unsportsmanlike” if an active
player passes priority, hoping to see what a Cog / Network player will
do first, and then the Cog / Network player passes, ending the minion
phase. This is not unfair at all. If you pass, that means that, given
the current game state, you don’t want to do anything at all. If you
want to do something, do it. If you don’t, don’t. It's simple.
Dasein
> Cog minion pass is not "breaking a deal"... you are missing the
> point. The actual conversation doesn't go, "I pass." "I pass, your
> minion phase is over." It goes, "could you let me take an action with
> my Enkil Cog minion?" "Sure." "I pass, your turn's over."
That's an artifiical silly conversation. The question "could you let
me take an action with my Cog minion?" is a ridiculous question. The
Cog player ALWAYS has a chance to take an action. He doesn't need to
ask permission. The player in this example is being an ass, but the
real ass is the active player who plays along with this stupid
charade.
Priority belongs to the active player. If he passes it, he passes it.
If he wanted to take an action, he should do so. If he doesn't, he
doesn't.
Your example conversation isn't really based on the question "can I
take an action with my minion?". It's based on the statement "I am
going to take an action with my cog minion". Which in your example
then turns out to be a lie. So the player is in that case lying. But
he wasn't asked a genuine question in the first place. He's just
bullsh1tting around. He doesn't have priority, the active player does,
and if the active player is bamboozled into thinking that's not the
case, he should read the rules.
It's like someone saying "If you play a conditioning on this bleed,
watch out, I might deflect it!!". They might be telling the truth.
they might be lying. But the active player knows there's always a
chance of a bleed being deflected. He should make his decision on
whether to pump the bleed on the basis of all the facts available to
him and his current plans and resources, not on some lame table talk
being thrown at him by his prey. A player saying “hey is it cool if I
take an action with my Cog minion?” is doing similar bullsh1tting. He
ALWAYS has the chance to do that. He’s just throwing mud around and
distracting the active player. People do this all the time. E.g. “you
better not bleed me more times, or I’ll influence out a big titled
vamp and banish / backvote you off the table!!”. People say rubbish
like this all the time. At least they do where I play. It’s part of
the game. It’s not breaking a deal, it’s bluffing. Or bullsh1tting.
But not dealbreaking. The example mentioned is even more ridiculous
because the question asked “Can I take an action?” doesn’t even make
sense. Anyone fooled by it deserves what they get.
> the dick move, and generally preys on the acting methuselah not
> realize that answering yes to a simple request will screw him. In a
> casual game, there's no way I would force the acting methuselah to end
> his turn, particularly if he didn't know the rule. In a tournament,
> well... buyer beware. Make sure you know this rule.
I would advise players know ALL the rules when entering a tournament.
Wouldn't you agree?
> The way the conversation *should* go is, "if I let you take an action,
> do you vow to actually take an action, and not pass in order to screw
> me over, and then maybe give me something in return?" "yes" "okay, I
> pass" "I pass, your turn's over, bi-atch" "You deal-breaking sonofa
> bitch, I'm gonna kill you."
The above paragraph is ridiculous, and assumes neither players
understand the priority system.
"If I let you take an action"??? A player with a Cog ALWAYS has the
chance to take an action. There is no "let". Utter nonsense.
Frederick Scott
news:e9c1d902-bba7-48ca...@s9g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 24, 5:13 pm, "Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote:
> > "Rehlow" <newsgr...@rehlow.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:8a3254f9-62f7-456d...@f13g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
> > On Nov 24, 2:30 am, Petri Wessman <or...@orava.org> wrote:
> >
> > > That's nothing compared to the dick move you can do if you control the
> > > vamp with Enkil Cog. Near the beginning of someone else's Minion Phase
> > > you ask if they will pass priority so that you can take an action.
> > > Then if they are curious to see what you want to do and pass you
> > > priority you then also pass. Their Minion Phase is now over. You used
> > > to be able to do it in Magic and I forget why you can't anymore. I'm
> > > pretty sure you can do it in Vampire, but maybe there is something I
> > > am missing.
> >
> > I'm confused why anyone would ever say "yes" to such a question. Aren't
> > you basically asking if they want to end their minion phase, now? Or
> > could they take further actions if the Enkil Cog vampire does choose to
> > take an action?
> >
> > If yes on that last question, is that now also true of Madness Network?
>
(Bleh. I should phrase my quesitons better. Let's try again...)
Yes, which? Yes, you are basically ending your minion phase - meaning, without
the possibility of restarting it - if you passed priority? Or yes, you can
act again if someone else (with Enkil Cog or w/ Madness Network) chose to act
after you passed priority?
> A reason to pass priority before tapping out
> Your prey controls Victoria or Using the Advantage w/Enkil Cog or
> Madness Network
Well sure. But that could just mean you want to one or more
minions untapped to block bleeds w/ Eagle Sight. You mean, to bleed
again after his bleeder bleeds, I take it?
Actually, acting after someone else acts in your turn is kind of a
cool mechanic (if the latter "yes" was the correct one). I can see neat
mind games and more interesting cards coming out of this. Kudos to the
designer...
Fred
bwross
> > In answer to Dasein, who said that passing and then having the Enkil
> > Cog minion pass is not "breaking a deal"... you are missing the
> > point. The actual conversation doesn't go, "I pass." "I pass, your
> > minion phase is over." It goes, "could you let me take an action with
> > my Enkil Cog minion?" "Sure." "I pass, your turn's over."
>
> That's an artifiical silly conversation. The question "could you let
> me take an action with my Cog minion?" is a ridiculous question. The
> Cog player ALWAYS has a chance to take an action. He doesn't need to
> ask permission.
Hardly. First off, the Cog player rarely has a chance to take an
action... most of the time they don't have the priority to do so.
That is a long way from always.
Furthermore, if the player with the Cog wants to do something because
of the current game situation, he needs to make sure that the active
player is willing to pass. That typically requires asking permission,
because just saying "I'm diablerizing that vampire you just torped
right now and you can't stop me" does not work under the rules (as you
know). There are many such instances where someone slipping an action
in between (or before) the actions of the current player might benefit
both players (another example would be the pool counts changing so
that the Cog player could now Parity Shift the mutual enemy before
they change again)... but to arrange such a thing someone needs to ask
and a deal needs to be made.
In any case, if the Cog player is raring to do an action where timing
isn't important, they should at least ask the acting player if they're
ready to end their minion phase (or to tell them when they're done
because the Cog might want to take an action) in order to get
permission to use their ability (if people aren't already inserting a
"Cog phase" and asking at the end of their minion phase if the Cog
wants to act). You could just wait until the person was declaring
transfers and they jump in and say "Hey, back up! I have my Cog given
right to act here so just sit down and look pretty!", but that's the
most clumsy way of doing things. Courtesy is an important part of
etiquette, if you're going to barge in on what the acting player is
doing, even though it's part of the rules, you should at least ask
nicely.
Brent Ross
wedge
> "wedge" <matt...@gmail.com> wrote in message
If the Cog/network player takes priority when he is done he also
passes it, at which point you can take it back. The wording on the
Network is different so it may not work but I don't see why not.
although I guess that would mean priority could shift back and forth
between your actions and the Malks.
James Coupe
.com>, wedge <mat...@gmail.com> writes:
>If the Cog/network player takes priority when he is done he also
>passes it, at which point you can take it back.
It doesn't quite work like that.
You have three minions, A, B and C. I have three minions, X, Y and Z.
All of my minions are Malkavian. There is a Madness Network in play.
At the start of your minion phase, you have the impulse (priority). A
is empty and needs to hunt. So you act with A. You *have* to act with
A, because you have a mandatory action. You can't pass the impulse when
you have something mandatory.
After A's action, the impulse goes back to whoever's turn it is - yours.
For the sake of argument, we'll imagine that there's a third player on
the table, and you don't want to act with any of your other vampires
because they'll get blocked by that mean third player and his uber-
blocker K.
You pass the impulse. Going clockwise around the table, I'm next. I
have the impulse. Minion X is a filthy Rotschreck out-of-turn rusher.
I rush the third player's filthy blocker, K, and send him to torpor.
Hurrah! My action finishes.
Who has the impulse now? *Not me*. At the end of the action, the
impulse goes back to you. You can now take an action if you want to,
and I can't stop you. I can't say "I have the impulse, I go now" -
because I don't. The impulse always goes back to the player whose turn
it is. Note: I *haven't* passed the impulse. It's just gone back to
you.
You say: Aha! B will come and eat K, and take his equipment, and get
his blood, and everything. So you take a diablerie action. It
finishes, the bloodhunt referendum fails, all done.
Who has the impulse? It's back to you. Again, for the sake of
argument, we'll say that some of the equipment you took from K would be
better off on C. So you take an equip action to take equipment from B
to C. Action finishes.
Who has the impulse? Again, it's back to you. You, however, are done.
So you pass.
I get the impulse. Minion Y decides to play Govern the Unaligned
against the filthy player who had K. The bleed finishes.
Who has the impulse? It's back to you. You pass again - but if you had
a fourth minion, you could act instead. Because you've passed, it comes
back to me. I look at my hand, and decide I can't do anything more
useful right now, so I pass the impulse. The impulse goes to the player
who had K. He no longer has any minions, so he can't take an action, so
he passes.
We've all passed, so the minion phase ends.
If, for each action, you substitute the playing of a pre-range card in
combat, it's exactly the same as playing those.
My turn, in combat with you. You really want to play Torn Signpost,
Increased Strength and Fists of Death. However...
- I play Carrion Crows. Impulse->me. I pass. Impulse->You.
- You play Torn Signpost. Impulse->me, automatically.
- I freak out, I wasn't expecting that. So I play Terror Frenzy.
Impulse->me.
- I also play Vitae Block (animalism), so I can press out of combat if I
need to. Impulse->me.
- I also play Song of Serenity, to thwart you. Impulse->me.
- I also play Call the Wild Hunt. Impulse->me.
- I pass. Impulse->you.
- You play Increased Strength. Impulse->me.
- Oh bloody hell, I really need to find something better to play, or I'm
going to get creamed. I play Summon Spirit Beast and discard a bunch
of cards, to draw into something better. Impulse->me.
- I play Pack Alpha with an Owl Companion. (Your hand flops open.)
Impulse->me.
- I have no more pre-range I want to play. I pass.
Impulse->you.
- You play Fists of Death. Impulse->me.
- I pass again. Impulse->you.
- You have nothing left you want to play. You pass.
Theoretically, other players get an option here now (because we've both
passed) to play something, but that very rarely happens. They all pass,
or maybe we're down to two players.
- Everyone has passed. Move on to Set Range.
Obviously, the above is deliberately contrived. However, it absolutely
*doesn't* go:
- I play Carrion Crows. Impulse->Me. I pass. Impulse->You. (Okay so
far...)
- You play Torn Signpost. Impulse->you. You play Increased Strength.
Impulse->you. You play Fists of Death. Impulse->you. You pass.
Impulse back to me.
Why would that matter? Another example, equally contrived.
My turn, different game, different vampire, but you again want to play
Torn Signpost, Fists of Death and Increased Strength.
- I play Shotgun Ritual. Impulse->me. I pass. Impulse->you.
- You play Torn Signpost. Bum, I wasn't expecting that. Impulse->me.
- I play Weather Control. Impulse->me.
- I choose not to play another card right now, and order in the Weather
Control damage. I take a damage. Impulse->me.
- Because I've just taken a damage, I play Lessons in the Steel
(superior). I look at your hand, and discard - say - Increased
Strength from your hand. Impulse->me.
If you took and kept the impulse until you passed it, you'd be able to
play all three cards in the second bullet. But you don't, so you can't,
so my uber-powerful Lessons of the Steel megadeck of doom wins.
(May not contain doom. May not win.)
Meej
Actually, the scenario being described is :
Player B: Hey, I want to hunt with my Cog (bleed my prey, whatever).
Mind if I do that sooner, rather than risk forgetting it at the end of
your turn?
Player A: Oh. Sure, that sounds reasonable. Pass.
Player B: Haha, I lied. Pass. Sucker.
I'll grant that it's entirely A's decision to pass. But they did so
under incredibly false pretenses, that were done with no intent other
than to screw the other guy. And it's not clearly, demonstrably in
violation of the VEKN rules, but it damn well skirts the line.
- D.J.
LSJ
other, let's try the direct approach:
If a player is misrepresenting the rules (i.e., explicitly or implicitly
expressing the concept that the active player can allow the Cog player to act
without the active player herself passing first), then it's
unsportsmanlike/cheating whatever. Illegal.
If the player is merely expressing a deal (either explicitly or implicitly
asking the active player to pass so that he can act with the Cog), then that's
fine. And breaking the deal (following the active player's pass with a pass) is
also fine. Legal.
Petri Wessman
Say I control minion A and B and my predator has 10-cap vampire X with
Enkil Cog. It is my turn.
On my minion phase, I act with minion A. After that, I have the option
of either acting with minion B, or passing. If I pass, minion X may
act. I have the option to act with minion B regardless of whether X
takes an action or not.
X can only act between A and B's actions if I let him (i.e. pass).
Likewise, X can act before any of my own (non-mandatory) actions only
if I let him. I cannot stop X from taking an action after all my
minion actions are done (other than by card effects etc).
Right?
//Petri
Peter D Bakija
> Rather than spend more time saying the same thing and painting it one way or the
> other, let's try the direct approach:
So is the best way to deal with Enkil Cog simply to refuse any request
by an opponent to use Enkil Cog? i.e. whenever anyone asks "Can I
Enkil Cog now?" can you just say "Nope. I'm not done acting." legally
and just always make Mr. Cog act after you are done with everything?
-Peter
Petri Wessman
> I have the option to act with minion B regardless of whether X
> takes an action or not.
... or does my passing after A's action, followed by X's player also
choosing to pass, effectively end my turn and disallow me to act with
B?
//Petri
LSJ
> Ok, interesting discussion. Just to be absolutely clear:
>
> Say I control minion A and B and my predator has 10-cap vampire X with
> Enkil Cog. It is my turn.
>
> On my minion phase, I act with minion A. After that, I have the option
> of either acting with minion B, or passing. If I pass, minion X may
> act. I have the option to act with minion B regardless of whether X
> takes an action or not.
Not after you pass.
If you (the active Methuselah) pass and everyone else passes, then you're done.
Move on to the next timing arena.
> X can only act between A and B's actions if I let him (i.e. pass).
> Likewise, X can act before any of my own (non-mandatory) actions only
> if I let him. I cannot stop X from taking an action after all my
> minion actions are done (other than by card effects etc).
>
> Right?
When it comes time to declare an action, you either do so or pass.
If you pass, others get the opportunity (Madness Network, Enkil Cog, whatever).
If they all pass, then move on to the Influence Phase.
Standard sequencing rules.
Peter D Bakija
> When it comes time to declare an action, you either do so or pass.
So just to clarify my previous question, in the face of Enkil Cog, can
you simply never pass the opportunity to take an action on your turn,
and effectively force the Enkil Cog player to just wait till you are
done with all your actions before doing anything?
-Peter
Petri Wessman
> When it comes time to declare an action, you either do so or pass.
>
> If you pass, others get the opportunity (Madness Network, Enkil Cog, whatever).
> If they all pass, then move on to the Influence Phase.
>
> Standard sequencing rules.
Right, that's clear enough now that I think about it -- but wasn't at
all clear to me before this thread :}. Thanks.
So, as Peter notes, the only sane way to deal with Cog is to say "no"
to any and all requests to use it before you're done with all of your
minion actions. Something to keep in mind -- and something I can
predict causing some nasty table arguments before people learn this.
//Petri
LSJ
Just like the only sane way to deal with Cailean's pesky "can I set range now?"
request is to say "no" until you're done playing the pre-range effects you want
to play (in case Cailean passes instead of setting range).
Matthew T. Morgan
That depends on what you want to do. Maybe you leave Beast untapped
threatening to rush the Enkil Cog'd vampire if he takes an action you
don't like.
Anyway, it doesn't seem like you're quite grasping it. You're not
refusing anything any more than you'd be refusing a player who didn't have
any way to act in your minion phase but kept asking "Do you pass? Do you
pass?" You take minion phase actions until you feel like passing. Then
you pass.
Matt Morgan
Matthew T. Morgan
Yeah, this. In vtes sequencing rules, when everyone passes, the phase is
over. I'm told this is in the rulebook.
Matt Morgan
John Flournoy
Absolutely. Just as you can play as many pre-range combat cards and
effects as you want and effectively force all the other players to
wait til you are done with all your effects before they can do
anything.
> -Peter
-John Flournoy
Blooded Sand
Yup!
Course, when you have no minions left who can act, just sitting with
your tumb in your ass, not passing becomes time wasting, so i can get
you disqualified. Woooooooooohooooooooooo! :)
Merlin
It depends on what the Enkil Cog (or Madness Network with the reprint)
deck is up to, shennanigans-wise. If you happen to be that deck's
predator and there is some kind of "Edge in my untap" Victoria/
Instability or multiple Using the Advantage antics going on, the best
thing is to take a minimum of actions, leaving enough guys to regain
the edge if they act with Cog/Network (admittedly easier to outminion
a ten-cap than Clan Malkvaian) so that the trick doesn't work so well.
I actually like this change because it makes it a little less
mandatory to burn the damn network as soon as i see it adjacent at a
table. Being able to act after the Malks do negates some of the
trumpiness that the network brought to the table. A lot more madness
now and a lot less network, imo.
-Merlin
Peter D Bakija
> Anyway, it doesn't seem like you're quite grasping it.
Nah, I think I'm grasping it reasonably well. I just wanted to confirm
that the whole "I can accidentally lose my minion phase if the Enkil
Cog guy says he wants to take an action in the middle of my actions,
and I say yes, which is passing my priority, and then he passes, and
I'm hosed" issue can be completely circumvented by simply not ever
passing priority. Just take all your actions and let Enkil Cog guy act
when you are done.
-Peter
librarian
Nosferatu Putresence FTW!
best -
chris