LSJ: Tattoo Signal, Burn Option and Non-ready Seraph

YY

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Dec 2, 2009, 11:02:43 PM12/2/09

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If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?

Tattoo Signal
Cardtype: Action
Clan:
Burn Option
+1 stealth action. Requires a Seraph.
Put this card on this acting Seraph. This ready Seraph may tap this
card to untap another Black Hand vampire. A minion may have only one
Tattoo Signal.

The Lasombra

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Dec 2, 2009, 11:42:59 PM12/2/09

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On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:02:43 -0800 (PST), YY wrote:

>If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
>Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?

http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/

1.6.1.3
Requirements for Playing Cards.

Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option icon. This
icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets
the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap
phase. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each untap
phase.

-----

Notice that this appears to be a change from the Bloodlines rules
sheet.
http://www.thelasombra.com/rules/BLRulesSheet.pdf
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/BLrules.html

3.2. Burn (Discard) Option
This symbol (only found on cards that require a clan to play)
indicates that during any Methuselah�s untap phase, the Methuselah can
burn (discard) the card from his or her hand if he or she doesn�t
control a ready member of the clan required. Each Methuselah is
limited to one such discard each untap phase.

YY

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Dec 3, 2009, 12:31:14 AM12/3/09

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On Dec 3, 12:42 pm, The Lasombra <TheLasom...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:02:43 -0800 (PST), YY wrote:
> >If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
> >Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?
>
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/
>
> 1.6.1.3
> Requirements for Playing Cards.
>
> Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option icon. This
> icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets
> the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap
> phase. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each untap
> phase.

Call me thick, but I still can't quite see this clearly.
So I *cannot* use the Burn Option to discard Tattoo Signal if I
control a non-ready Seraph and no other Seraphs?

-YY

LSJ

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Dec 3, 2009, 6:55:09 AM12/3/09

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YY wrote:
> If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
> Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?

Yes. You have no minion that meets the requirements of the card.

John Flournoy

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Dec 3, 2009, 11:15:32 AM12/3/09

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On Dec 3, 5:55 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> YY wrote:
> > If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
> > Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?
>
> Yes. You have no minion that meets the requirements of the card.

But he does, according to the rules; as Lasombra notes elsewhere in
the thread, the wording in the rulebook is: "a Methuselah who doesn't
control a minion that meets the requirements may discard the card

during any Methuselah's untap phase."

The fact that his Seraphs are not ready doesn't factor into how the
rule is worded; he controls a minion that meets the requirements, so
he can't discard his Tattoo Signal.

Is this rule _intended_ to still be "ready" as it was when first
printed in Bloodlines?

LSJ

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Dec 3, 2009, 11:19:20 AM12/3/09

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John Flournoy wrote:
> On Dec 3, 5:55 am, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> YY wrote:
>>> If all the Seraphs I control are currently in torpor, can I discard
>>> Tattoo Signal using the Burn Option?
>> Yes. You have no minion that meets the requirements of the card.
>
> But he does, according to the rules;

It is an action => it requires a ready minion. [6.1] [6.5.1]

Juggernaut1981

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Dec 3, 2009, 7:16:43 PM12/3/09

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The Burn Option rule is INTENDED to basically say "If you can't use
it, you can dump it". Even though it's formatting allows it to be
misconstrued.

Abdul alHazred

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Dec 4, 2009, 9:24:56 AM12/4/09

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> 1.6.1.3
> Requirements for Playing Cards.

> Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option icon. This

> icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets

> the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap

> phase. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each untap
> phase.

Wouldnt it be better to rephrase the rule and substitute the words
"control a" with "have a ready" to avoid misunderstandings?
Or is the intention of the phrasing with controlled that you want to
make a difference between mastercards and minioncards So that you need
to discard burn-option mastercards (like tabriz assembly) in a regular
discard phase action if all your vampires that meet that specific
requirement are torporized?

LSJ

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Dec 4, 2009, 9:44:22 AM12/4/09

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Abdul alHazred wrote:
>> 1.6.1.3
>> Requirements for Playing Cards.
>> Some cards that have a requirement also have a burn option icon. This
>> icon means that a Methuselah who doesn't control a minion that meets
>> the requirements may discard the card during any Methuselah's untap
>> phase. Each Methuselah is limited to one such discard each untap
>> phase.
>
> Wouldnt it be better to rephrase the rule and substitute the words
> "control a" with "have a ready" to avoid misunderstandings?

No. Not all cards require a ready thing, e.g., High Aye/Orun, Transcendent
Laibon, Council of Seraphim, etc.

> Or is the intention of the phrasing with controlled that you want to
> make a difference between mastercards and minioncards So that you need
> to discard burn-option mastercards (like tabriz assembly) in a regular
> discard phase action if all your vampires that meet that specific
> requirement are torporized?

A master card's requirement, if it has one, includes "ready". [1.6.1.3]