Heirs to the Blood - which Bloodlines need what help?
James Coupe
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/3c1fde8c3bd5f4f1#
- which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
And what sort of shot do you think that should be?
The original aim - for at least some Bloodlines - was that you'd mix and
match them with 'real' clans to get access to some other abilities. Is
that viable? Or would you like to see more tools for the Bloodlines
themselves? Most of the bloodlines lack solid access to bleed bounce,
for example, or solid political power. Would you like to see more
there?
There's no need to suggest immensely detailed card texts (though that's
fine too). If you think the Samedi could do with being better at
aggressive combat or that Necromancy isn't pulling its weight for the
Harbingers of Skulls, you can just say that. Perhaps you think the
vampire spread for the !Salubri could do with a particular gap being
filled in.
What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Orpheus
> Following on from The Lasombra's starter discussion -
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/3c1fde8c3bd5f4f1#
> - which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
> And what sort of shot do you think that should be?
>
> The original aim - for at least some Bloodlines - was that you'd mix
> and match them with 'real' clans to get access to some other
> abilities. Is that viable? Or would you like to see more tools for
> the Bloodlines themselves? Most of the bloodlines lack solid access
> to bleed bounce, for example, or solid political power. Would you
> like to see more there?
>
>
> There's no need to suggest immensely detailed card texts (though
> that's fine too). If you think the Samedi could do with being better
> at aggressive combat or that Necromancy isn't pulling its weight for
> the Harbingers of Skulls, you can just say that. Perhaps you think
> the vampire spread for the !Salubri could do with a particular gap
> being filled in.
>
>
> What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
That's a good subject, James.
There are quite a few issues I see with Bloodlines.
General points
- the most difficult stretegy in VTES being Combat, the combat bloodlines
will be the harder to win with ; those include Trujahs, Blood Brothers and
Samedi
- the Scarce clans will be the most dependent on their allies, and the
hardest to build a crypt with
- the combination of disciplines is of course an important issue, and here
the 2 worst to me seem to be the Nagaraja (because they will have little use
for Aus + Dom, not being the fighty type) and the Samedi (because 4
disciplines makes for a poor spread throughout the line)
- the number of vamps available in a bloodline is also an important factor :
from the 3 scarce to the 4-5 average to the 6+ in some bloodlines that
really need it
- the bloodlines that are made to be mixed with a main clan have got to
bring something more to the table, obviously ; also, the ones made to be
played by themselves but sharing much with a clan have to offer equivalent
options and not just a tuned-down version (why am I thinking Harbingers here
?)
- the disciplines lacking a discipline card will of course be the hardest to
make a deck with, and will need strong cards to be balanced
- of course the lack of a bouncing discipline and the lack of titles will
bring a line down
- last but not least, the allies available among the vamps sharing 2 of the
line's disciplines will be an important factor.
All this being said :
- the Trujahs are in bad shape. Seldom played, and the ones who are played
most to my knowledge are those with an obvious connection to another clan :
Synesios with Fos, Krassimir with Giovanni, Nehemiah with Lasombra. The
crypts for those decks are less than perfect, and the compatibility with
Brujahs or !Brujahs lacks luster. The discipline has some good cards, maybe
it would need some bounce or equivalent (action fail would be more thematic,
Rewind Time is good but doesn't fill that role), and a Cel/Tem/TEM card or
two would allow for better compatibility with the "main" clan (some would
say the offsprings...)
- Nagaraja : as pointed out, in most decks they will have a "lost"
discipline. Contrarily to their scarce colleagues, they don't have a special
discipline, so this has to be compensated by their special card text, which
has been done to a somewhat mitigated result : as of now only Le Din Tho has
been good enough to be included in Giovanni decks, and Sennadurek is the
Harbinger's main ally. So this line would really be helped by a few strong
clan cards.
- the Harbingers now have a bleed card, and that's good ; they still are
inferior to the Giovanni in so many ways, and if you go for For / Aus wall
the !Ventrue don't really need them ; in my experience they really are the
best as Matthias support, for the rest not so much. I guess a new Salubri
with NEC would make the new ones as useful as the first ones.
- the Samedi need some intercept or bounce ability, as the G4-G5 seem to go
the Aus way rather than Dom a few more AUS guys would be good ; also maybe 2
more with Pot because their combat disciplines can be so much better with
Immortal Grapple... And of course some good discipline cards, maybe
something to go with the Corpses
- the Gargoyles really don't need more fighting cards, whatever comes out
next has to be useless in a Tupdog deck and good for the other decks, so I'm
thinking either permacept or other permanent effects (bleed,
title-countering, punitive rushes once equipped etc)
- I guess the Blood Brothers would be good with 2-3 compatible guys with Dom
(for bounce and very occasional bleed boost) ; then they could rock, as
they're pretty good fighters already.
- The kyasid could get another good voter, and of course I'd love to see one
more Nec (NEC !) guy among them, not too expensive, so they could get their
own Hordes...
- the Salubri fare well enough already, as mentionned I would love to see a
new one with NEC, and more mixing between Salubri and !Salubri would be good
(interesting Obe/Val or Val/Obe cards, Salubri with Val and !Salubri with
Obe...)
- the Baali are still nigh unplayable, the only ones we see being Great
Beast decks with high-caps, they would really need something more to
compensate their Infernal weakness ; I would love a Baali that made Heralds
of Topheth playable, maybe stating you don't have to pay for them if the
Baali is untapped during your Influence Phase ? (especially if he had For or
THA...)
Guess that's it for now...
Orpheus
Tim
Harbinger of Skulls. That would make me warm and fuzzy.
Aside from vampire wishlisting I wouldn't mind things that make it a bit
easier to integrate the Bloodlines into mainstream decks, just make them a
bit more accessible.
Some more double discipline cards with singular(useful) discipline usage
would be nice, just to make that integration a little more seamless.
Mainly hoping for some nice reprints in the starters, like Villein, Shroud
of Absence and Eyes of Argus.
*Has fingers crossed for Shaitan*
-Tim
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:aOayLP7N...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
Orpheus
> usage would be nice, just to make that integration a little more
> seamless.
Oh yes, of course I forgot to plead yet again for Obt+Nec and / Or Nec/Myt
cards !! ;-)
So here it goes...
Orpheus, necropraying
Kevin Walsh
Perhaps you think the
> vampire spread for the !Salubri could do with a particular gap being
> filled in.
>
a 5 or 6 cap !Salubri with AUS VAL would be good. But what I would
like to see in terms of combat cards are some kind of versions of
Flash (if Apportation was a Valeren card I'd play the hell out of it)
or Aura Reading, preferably free because you can't rely on drawing the
Path or keeping it in play. A Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking
equivalent would also be nice.
The Daughters of Cacophony would really love an in-Clan Embrace, and
Scourge of the Enochians means it may not need to be unique.
Kevin Walsh
Malone
> Following on from The Lasombra's starter discussion -http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_f...
> - which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
> And what sort of shot do you think that should be?
>
> The original aim - for at least some Bloodlines - was that you'd mix and
> match them with 'real' clans to get access to some other abilities. Is
> that viable? Or would you like to see more tools for the Bloodlines
> themselves? Most of the bloodlines lack solid access to bleed bounce,
> for example, or solid political power. Would you like to see more
> there?
>
> There's no need to suggest immensely detailed card texts (though that's
> fine too). If you think the Samedi could do with being better at
> aggressive combat or that Necromancy isn't pulling its weight for the
> Harbingers of Skulls, you can just say that. Perhaps you think the
> vampire spread for the !Salubri could do with a particular gap being
> filled in.
>
> What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
Generally:
* More dual-discipline cards that favor the Bloodlines clans...
For/Pot, For/Nec, For/Pre, Nec/Obt
Where Does It Hurt?
reaction
Only usable by a blocking vampire.
[aus for] If the block is successful, the acting minion burns 1 blood
or life before combat.
[AUS FOR] If the block is successful, put this card on this vampire.
During the press step each round this vampire may burn 1 blood to add
a counter to this card. Burn this card at the end of the action and,
if this vampire is ready, for each counter the opposing minion's
controller burns 4 cards from his or her library or 1 pool.
* Some anarch 3-fers with one bloodline discipline (or even two).
* Bloodline discipline cards with core functions on the outferior.
Auditory Hallucinations
action modifier
1 blood
[dem] + 1 bleed and +1 stealth, no more bleed modifiers
[mel] +1 stealth
[MEL] as [mel] and reaction cards requiring Auspex or Dominate cost an
additional blood
Harbingers: Give them something distinctive besides the
Slaughterhouse. Erebus Mask may be a launching point -- give them one
or two more clan-specific sources of stealth. Give them an
interesting voice in Sabbat politics.
Rise from the Shadows
2 blood, requires HoS
+2 stealth action
Put this card on this vampire. This card represents the unique title
of Regent. This vampire gets 4 fewer votes if his or her capacity is
less than 6. Burn this card if this vampire is not Sabbat.
Reveal the Kept Secret
requires HoS
action
Choose a Political Action card from your ash heap. This vampire calls
a referendum as if he or she had played the chosen card from your
hand. Remove both this card and that card from the game at the end of
the action.
Samedi: Thanatosis should get some combat cards that actually do
stuff. Somebody should get something that works against S:CE, maybe
it could be them. They also would be plausible recipients for ant-
bounce tech; or, instead, give them some bounce tech. They're already
almost good at stealth-bleed and almost good at combat, they just need
a nudge.
Daughters: Give them a Camarilla Prince... or an Anarch Baron... or a
Laibon Magaji!
Kiasyd: They're already good. A really strong crypt selection is
all they need. (6-cap [DOM MYT OBT], 7-cap Priscus [pot myt obt DOM
NEC], ...)
Ahrimanes: Also already good. They need a new Howler, or some real
synergy between two or three vampires.
Blood Brothers: Also already good, but they could use an oust
mechanism other than Walk of Caine (i.e., other than bleed)... maybe
something crazy, like
My Flesh for Yours
combat
[for] Play when choosing a strike. For each point of damage this
strike successfully inflicts damage on the opposing minion, this
vampire may burn a blood to inflict an additional damage.
[san] As [for], but a ready Blood Brother of the same circle may burn
blood instead of this vampire.
[SAN] Play when the opposing minion becomes unready but this vampire
remains ready. Burn a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as this
vampire and the opposing minion's controller burns pool equal to the
capacity of the burned Blood Brother or the cost of the opposing
minion, whichever is less.
Gargoyles: Do cool stuff with Flight; play up the Flight connection
to the Nosferatu and the Akunase. Like, maybe make some Potence or
Fortitude cards that work better if the vampire has flight. AVOID
making Tupdog close-range combat any stronger.
!Salubri: Play up the righteous combat angle. Give one vampire +1
stealth on rush actions, and another +2 damage with melee weapons.
Give them a unique melee weapon that trumps S:CE.
Victory Lap
requires !Sal
combat
Play when the opposing minion becomes unready and this acting vampire
remains ready. This acting vampire untaps and must bleed at +1 bleed
(even if he or she has already attempted a bleed action this turn, or
would otherwise be inelligible to bleed this turn). During that
bleed, cards that would change the target of the bleed cost an
additional pool.
Baali: Leave them out of this expansion!
Scarce Clans: give their vampires cool specials and their discipline
cards really solid outferiors.
Lech Jot
I'll focus on Harbringers of Skulls and Nagaraja. Why ? Both
bloodlines do not have 'unique' discipline, and both share necromancy
and auspex.
Where lies the problem then ? Nagaraja do not have any benefit over
other necromancy clans, and suffer from weak vampires and support
role. It have 3 vampires that are sometimes played: Le Dinh Tho
(Shambling Hordes and sometimes powerbleed gio), Sennadurek (Auspex
Hand, HoS) and Prejudice (aus/dom weenies). One of the two clan
related cards is good, but require either luck, or playing with mortal
retainers and mortal allies (tasha/simmons/winthrop/carlton/
youngbloods seems best choices so far). Their second clan card seems
to be very good with shambling hordes (good bloodgain). Imo, ability
to reduce scarce penalty (so there will be two nagaraja vampires able
to gain blood from their clan cards) would help. Or good wraith
related special (like unique/limited wraith creation). Perhaps good
dom/nec or aus/nec card would be helpful ? or any other edge (in any
area) over giovanni would be helpful.
Harbringes of Skulls are bit better nowdays, but still - they have
worse crypt selection than giovanni, and not nearly as good clan cards
and discipline spreed (this is more dominate problem, but still).
What could help those two clans ? Better necromancy cards (maybe
better aus/nec cards to prevent most giovanni from gaining edge
again). Current wraith support is quite neat (breath of thanatos
[notabene nagaraja unique necromancy path's power], shroud mastery
[nb.giovanni necromancy path's power], soul feasting [also nagaraja
path]), but necromancy wraiths themselves are rather not over the top
(masquer ? overpriced raven spy ? pupetter ? anti-weenie wraith ? ok,
it's better than masquer, but what is not better). New necromancy/clan
unique wraiths would help them. Also, make necromancy less path
dependant, or get rid of path of bones at all (it's not gonna happend,
but i could try)(or all paths?).
Raziel
Lech Jot
> I would Love to see Shaitan the Baali get printed, along with Lazarus the
> Harbinger of Skulls. That would make me warm and fuzzy.
>
> Aside from vampire wishlisting I wouldn't mind things that make it a bit
> easier to integrate the Bloodlines into mainstream decks, just make them a
> bit more accessible.
>
> Some more double discipline cards with singular(useful) discipline usage
> would be nice, just to make that integration a little more seamless.
>
> Mainly hoping for some nice reprints in the starters, like Villein, Shroud
> of Absence and Eyes of Argus.
>
> *Has fingers crossed for Shaitan*
>
> -Tim
>
> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:aOayLP7N...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
>
> > Following on from The Lasombra's starter discussion -
> > - which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
> > And what sort of shot do you think that should be?
>
> > The original aim - for at least some Bloodlines - was that you'd mix and
> > match them with 'real' clans to get access to some other abilities. Is
> > that viable? Or would you like to see more tools for the Bloodlines
> > themselves? Most of the bloodlines lack solid access to bleed bounce,
> > for example, or solid political power. Would you like to see more
> > there?
>
> > There's no need to suggest immensely detailed card texts (though that's
> > fine too). If you think the Samedi could do with being better at
> > aggressive combat or that Necromancy isn't pulling its weight for the
> > Harbingers of Skulls, you can just say that. Perhaps you think the
> > vampire spread for the !Salubri could do with a particular gap being
> > filled in.
>
> > What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
>
> > --
> > James Coupe
> > PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> > EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> > 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Shaitan is already here. You may read about:
Huitzilopochtli
[AUS][DAI][DOM][OBF][PRE][POT]
Baali
Capacity: 10
Group: 2
Independent: During your master phase, you may pay a pool to gain a
master phase action if Huitzilopochtli is ready. +1 bleed. Infernal.
And this:
Shaitan/Adriel (Huitzilopochtli) <4> (-4520:-4500) Progeny of Saulot.
Sire of
Nezahualcoyotl. He was embraced in the Second City and believed that
his sire was Ashur.
Sent by Caine and Ashur to investigate a mortal cult of infernalists.
He was seduced to
their side when he met Ba'al, one of the Great Demons. His fortress in
Crete was destroyed
by the Setites and the other Clans. He walked to Mexico and proclaimed
himself
Huitzilopoctli, the Aztec god of War. [CF,p118] [Cb-Ba] (Assyrian Fire
God)
Juggernaut1981
mirrored in some disciplines, particularly Fortitude...
Plus I think the "Keystone Kine"/"Steely Tenacity" concept is a great
trick for Bloodlines clans... (see further down)
Discipline Lending for the Scarce Clans
Examples of Discipline Lending...
Converting the Heathens
Master
1 pool
Requires: Salubri
While you have a ready Salubri with [OBE], non-Salubri vampires you
control may use cards as if they had [obe]
Sense of Time
Master
1 pool
Requires: Trujah
While you have a ready Trujah with [TEM], non-Trujahs...etc
Multidiscipline cards...
Corporeal Awareness
Reaction
You may use this card with any combination of disciplines, their
effects combine.
[aus] +1 intercept
[for] If this vampire enters combat, they may prevent 1 damage during
that combat
[nec] If this vampire enters combat they may cancel a maneuver
Time is Transient
Action Modifier
1 blood
You may use this card with any combination of disciplines, their
effects combine.
[aus] You may cancel one reaction card that provides a blocking minion
intercept
[cel] +1 stealth
[tem] Vampires without [aus] or [cel] cannot block this action
Shades and Shadows
Master
1 pool
Vampires may only use the effects of this card during a (D) action
targeting you. You may only control one Shades and Shadows.
Vampires you control with [myt] may tap and burn 1 blood to cancel the
action.
Vampires you control with [nec] may give an ally you control +1
intercept.
Vampires you control with [obt] may burn 1 blood to reduce the acting
minion's stealth by 1.
Lech Jot
Part of the anarch card concept is that anarchs need only inferior
disciplines to function as intended, so it have to require superior
disciplines instead. Also, Kiasyds have currently Obtenebration,
Mytherceria and DOMINATE, not Necromancy.
Discipline lending is actually in the game (read: inceptor and agent
of power).
And one more thing - Ahrimanes need no further help. They already have
Howler. Maybe some Gangrel with superior animalism, inferior protean,
inferior spiritus and superior presence from the 5th group could help
here (to help Muricia)(and new good ahrimane from 4th and 5th group).
Tim
I have read in other sources where Huitzilopochtli was the child of Shaitan,
left with the aztecs to spread horros etc.. in his name while he travelled.
Besides, I never thought Hoochipoochi lived up to Shaitan's power level, he
was one of the more interesting characters for my mind in the WoD 1.0. and
the card just didn't excite me overly much.
I would like a vampire actually called Shaitan, is what I am getting at :),
a serious badass. He was supposed to be the nastiest of the nasty.
-Tim
"Lech Jot" <angel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:70b58b6b-780c-4ea0...@w6g2000yqw.googlegroups.com...
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually not using Superiors may be a way to get more mileage from
having Scarce Clans in Crypts. They have some seriously shiney
Bloodline Discipline stuff, so adding in cards that exploit their
Bloodline Disc AND give access to other support disciplines (aus, for,
cel, nec, obt) may give the cards greater use in the decks.
Also, it means that having a wide spattering on skills on these cards
makes them "not total wallpaper" for everyone who DOESN'T want to use
the Bloodline Disciplines (or doesn't have the crypt cards for them).
James Coupe
>I'm not particularly unhappy with their Vampire spread, though I think
>a 5 or 6 cap !Salubri with AUS VAL would be good.
I started having thoughts about something like:
Nkechi, Advanced
5 capacity, Salubri antitribu
AUS FOR val
Laibon. Red List.
> But what I would
>like to see in terms of combat cards are some kind of versions of
>Flash (if Apportation was a Valeren card I'd play the hell out of it)
>or Aura Reading, preferably free because you can't rely on drawing the
>Path or keeping it in play. A Psyche! or Telepathic Tracking
>equivalent would also be nice.
Yeah, I could see that working out well.
All the Bloodlines have had some trouble fitting into the game at times,
and some have managed it better than others. I've never quite been able
to work out what the intended plan for the !Salubri was at all, though -
get melee weapons (which aren't good), use them not all that well (due
to lack of support as you suggest), win?
Raziel
Pretty harsh. 5 cap with no special rule and 5 levels of disciplines
with innate red list ? I didnt know that AUS FOR val combo is so
powerful ;)
Salubri problem is that melee weapon combat is owned by about every
'proper' offensive and defensive combat - crows, grapple, guns, thrown
junk, s:ce. If melee weapons would be better, salubri would be better.
Or if auspex would help at all in combat ? Or even card that make
their pre-range stuff last longer ? Like this:
Sense Prey
Auspex Valeren
Combat
[aus][val] Maneuver or Press.
[AUS][VAL] Only usable when combat is about to end. Start new round of
combat.
Raziel
> Well,
>
> I have read in other sources where Huitzilopochtli was the child of Shaitan,
> left with the aztecs to spread horros etc.. in his name while he travelled.
>
> Besides, I never thought Hoochipoochi lived up to Shaitan's power level, he
> was one of the more interesting characters for my mind in the WoD 1.0. and
> the card just didn't excite me overly much.
>
> I would like a vampire actually called Shaitan, is what I am getting at :),
> a serious badass. He was supposed to be the nastiest of the nasty.
>
> -Tim
>
Shaitan (The Chaos Factor, pg 108)
Sire: Ashur
Nature: Architect
Demeanor: Visionary
Generation: 4th
Embrace: 4500 B.C.
Apparent Age: 20
Physical: Strength 7 (9), Dexterity 6 (8), Stamina 7 (9)
Social: Charisma 8, Manipulation 9, Appearance 0
Mental: Perception 6, Intelligence 6, Wits 7
Talents: Alertness 4, Brawl 5, Diplomacy 6, Dodge 5, Dreaming 7,
Empathy 6, Intrigue 9, Intuition 9, Leadership (Public Speaking) 8,
Mimicry 6, Subterfuge (Seduction) 9, Throwing 2
Skills: Crafts 3, Blind Fighting 3, Body Crafts 6, Bribery 9,
Camouflage 3, Etiquette 1, Melee 5, Survival (Tracking) 9, Torture 9
Knowledges: Academics (Anthropology, Archeology) 9, Alchemy 3, Area
Knowledge (Mexico, Mesopotamia) 9, Black Hand Lore 5, Camarilla Lore
3, City Secrets 9, Investigation (Search) 5, Kindred Lore 9, Lupine
Lore 5, Mage Lore 4, Medicine (Toxicology) 6, Occult (Demonic Lore) 9,
Psychology 3, Politics 8, Sabbat Lore 9, Sewer Lore 3, Spirit Lore 9,
Theology 9, Wyrm Lore 9
Disciplines: Animalism 6, Auspex 9, Celerity 6, Chimersty 6, Daimoinon
9, Dark Thaumaturgy 7, Dementation 8, Dominate 9, Fortitude 7,
Obtenebration 4, Presence 9, Protean 7, Potence 9, Thaumaturgy 4,
Visceratika 3
Backgrounds: Alternate Identity, Allies 9, Contact 9, Herd 9,
Influence 9, Resources 4, Retainers 9, Status 9
Virtues: Conviction 5, Instinct 5, Courage 5
Morality: Path of Revelations 10
Willpower: 10
Demonic Investments: 9 (Infernal Ranking)
Derangements: Obsession
Do you really want vampire with 14 (!) superior disciplines and one
inferior ? Really ? I'd rather not.
James Coupe
>Do you really want vampire with 14 (!) superior disciplines and one
>inferior ? Really ? I'd rather not.
That seems pretty unlikely. Vampires in V:TES have rarely been
implemented with all their disciplines - many of them have disciplines
that have been dropped for play-balance reasons.
James Coupe
>On 11 Sie, 21:31, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> I started having thoughts about something like:
>>
>> Nkechi, Advanced
>> 5 capacity, Salubri antitribu
>> AUS FOR val
>> Laibon. �Red List.
<snip - please trim quoted text - Google ask you to!>
>Pretty harsh. 5 cap with no special rule and 5 levels of disciplines
>with innate red list ? I didnt know that AUS FOR val combo is so
>powerful ;)
The base vampire has a mild advantage, so I felt it appropriate for the
Advanced to have a mild disadvantage. Red List gets you an extra point
in the Create A Clan rules - which means it isn't all that harsh a
penalty, really (Infernal vamps gets 2 or 3 extra points). You might
well go for AUS VAL for, which is I think what I was intending to type
in the first place.
You could add something mildly interesting to the merged vampire.
Maybe:
Nkechi, Advanced
5 capacity, Salubri antitribu
AUS FOR val
Laibon. �Red List.
[[] +1 strength with melee weapons.
Kevin Walsh
> All the Bloodlines have had some trouble fitting into the game at times,
> and some have managed it better than others. I've never quite been able
> to work out what the intended plan for the !Salubri was at all, though -
> get melee weapons (which aren't good), use them not all that well (due
> to lack of support as you suggest), win?
>
the Righteous until your opponent runs out of S:CE or until you have
too many in hand. If they try to get cute by waiting for your SotR
before playing Majesty, then press to continue. Sense Death,
Powerbase: Luanda, and Black Hand Contract get you extra rushes for
when your opponent is vulnerable so you can wipe them off the board. !
Salubri actually have pretty decent defense against other combat decks
trumps through judicious use of fortitude, Armor of Caine's Fury and
Blissful Agony. The exception is, oddly enough, Assamite melee weapon
decks.
Having to play Fake Out and Dead End Alley sucks quite a lot, though.
And Aura Reading would be a really handy effect for Valeren. Sadly,
Langa doesn't have Auspex. As they currently stand, I can't imagine
playing a !Salubri deck that didn't have permarush on one of its
Vampires.
Kevin Walsh
Tim
>inferior ? Really ? I'd rather not
Bahahah
Yeah fair enough. I just liked the character and thought it would be cool
to have a vamp based on him.
Mind you. I would love to Saulot's stats ;)
-Tim
"Raziel" <angel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d5756707-2635-4d7d...@d32g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
.
John Whelan
> - the combination of disciplines is of course an important issue, and here
> the 2 worst to me seem to be the Nagaraja (because they will have little use
> for Aus + Dom, not being the fighty type) and the Samedi (because 4
> disciplines makes for a poor spread throughout the line)
Generally, I would like to see more mechanisms that permit vampires to
take advantage of multiple disciplines.
In theory, the Samedi already have such a mechanism, since their
Thanatosis cards often have "outferiors" which grant them extra
options if they have the outferior discipline (which include For, Nec,
Obf) Whether such cards printed so far are much worth playing is a
different issue.
Jyhad
> >Do you really want vampire with 14 (!) superior >disciplines and one
> >inferior ? Really ? I'd rather not
>
> Bahahah
>
> Yeah fair enough. I just liked the character and thought it would be cool
> to have a vamp based on him.
>
> Mind you. I would love to Saulot's stats ;)
>
> -Tim
>
There are multiple individuals that claim to be Shaitan. In that
recent Set Creation contest, I even created Shaitan for the Ashirra
set that won the contest. Although not an official set by any means
you can find at least one version of Shaitan on the web already.
Baali don't need anything and are not as unplayable as some make them
out to be. I've seen more than just Great Beast decks. Ahrimanes
don't need much help either. Although an equipment card to give a
level of Spiritus would be nice. Blood Brothers are pretty solid with
Pot\Fort, a few more San combat tricks would be nice. Kiasyd are Dom
strong. Maybe another voter and another solid Myth trick card. I
agree with the Harbingers getting some vote push\tricks and another
voter as well. Maybe even bridge their connection with their Samedi
cousins. Lazarus would indeed be a cool Vampire to see and could very
well be that other side of a bridge that Troglodytia started as she
and Lazarus were Cappadocians in the distant past. A few more non
slave Goyles maybe even Indy would be nice. Daughters could definatly
use a title of some kind though why Sabbat wasn't included initially I
don't know. Temporis is fairly strong, but a way to have either a
second scarce as mentioned or a means to impart the knowledge of
Temporis to another vampire would be helpful. It could even be limited
to the point where non (pander\caitiff and brujah\Brujah!) are limited
to one level of the discipline while the others can get in theory
Superior Temporis. The Salubri(!) thing should be noted as well, why
is Saulot the only one to have both disciplines. It wasn't uncommon
for both castes of Salubri to learn both. At one time it was all one
discipline anyway. So lets see some more, ADV Adonai anyone?
Satrapa
Ahrimanes: crypt with 3 minions with SPI and PRE (one of them can have
pre) it would allow them to properly play weak but fun version of S&B
or nice politics or crypt with lot of specific gangrel out of clan
discipline (if all Ahrimanes was !gangrels before why pre is so
popular and cel, obf, pro, for so absent? Vampire with ANI, SPI, CEL/
FOR would be outstanding especially when supported by another one with
ANI, SPI, cel/for).
Muricia ADV would be also nice.
B.B. don't know them much, didn't play against them for a long time.
Maybe clan specific equipment would be fun. Master discipline or card
similar to blooding by the code for sanguinis.
Baali - something that would make low caps playable and new bigcap
that would replace Cybele in some of Great Beast decks (I saw only 1
deck with Nergal but only as an addition to Cybele). Master discipline
or card similar to blooding by the code for daimonion.
Gargoyles - new vampires for 4th group. In 3-4 range only playable
option is Tupdog. Bleed bounce, something that would make their
retainers cheaper without support from (!)tremere, option to employ
clan specific retainers without action or another card intercept would
be nice. Master discipline or card similar to blooding by the code for
visceratika.
Harbringers - Lets say that Giovanni have a lot better support for
their necromancy than HoS. Some useful clan specific alternative for
shambling hordes (not necessarily rush combat oriented) or good nec
card with boon for being HoS would be fun.
True Brujahs - Intercept, bleed bounce or good bloat system.
Kiasyd - :D better version of basilisk touch (what is not playable
IMHO) that would be alternative for entombment AND/OR non unique (or
few unique) good changeling ally and retainer AND/OR action modifier
giving votes or a vampire that can play covincraft as action modifier
AND/OR stronger version of folderol - could be twice more powerful but
cost blood AND/OR permanent intercept (non unique), more card
intercept or 2-3 vampires with nec and good clan disciplines (and
reprint of masquer). Vampire with cap 6-7 and MYT, DOM, OBT, Beatrice
adv with obt.
Most important thing - good myt card that requires mytherceria. 2
vampires have ability to pay 1 less blood when playing myt cards but
no playable myt card that costs blood. Master discipline or card
similar to blooding by the code for mytherceria.
Samedi - Never played against them neither with them. Don't know.
Master discipline or card similar to blooding by the code for
thanatosis.
(!)Salubri - +1 stealth (may be only on undirected actions) at val (to
make using anima gathering easier), good allies (there are lot of
cards, especially requiring obe that supports allies but no good
allies within their reach).Master discipline or card similar to
blooding by the code for obeah.
Abominations - something that would make star deck based on them
possible (clan based multiacting or making library card Abomination
non-unique).
Nagaraja - true support bloodline... something that would make pure
bloodline deck worth making maybe clan oriented non unique location or
ally, some boon that would make using scarce vampires usable (free
investment with number of counters based on number of vampires with
scarce or something that would frequently give pool or blood when 2
vampires with scarce are in play), good vampires with for or pot.
Daughters of Cacophony - Master discipline or card similar to blooding
by the code for melpominae, block fails/stealth/-intercept useable
against older vampires, good combat card, something that would allow
using death of the drum at close range, mel based manouvers or set
range.
Kevin Walsh
The Salubri(!) thing should be noted as well, why
> is Saulot the only one to have both disciplines. It wasn't uncommon
> for both castes of Salubri to learn both. At one time it was all one
> discipline anyway. So lets see some more, ADV Adonai anyone?
The Salubri Antitribu are already kind of janky. They really don't
need to have their Vampires' precious build points wasted on basic
Obeah.
Kevin Walsh
Malone
> What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
Bweha
7 Istarri
nec CEL FOR MEL PRE
Laibon. When any vampires are in torpor that Bweha may diablerize,
she must attempt a diablerie action. -1 Intercept.
Mwitu
7 Guruhi
obf pot spi ANI PRE
Laibon. During an action that requires Laibon, Mwitu may burn a blood
to gain +1 stealth or +1 intercept.
Ikilo
8 Osebo
dom for pot AUS NEC CEL
Laibon. Magaji you control get +1 intercept.
Ikilo
8 Osebo
dom for pot AUS NEC CEL
Advanced. Laibon Magaji.
Dzunyidzunyi
6 Akunanse
abo ani for obf pot tha thn
Laibon. Flight. Dzunyidzunyi gets an optional maneuver each round of
combat except the first.
Sydnelson
Name: Endless Fermata
Type: Unique Master
Requires: Daughters of Cacophony
Cost: 2 Pool
Burn Option: Yes
Text: Tap this card during your influence phase to keep up to 3 Choir
cards in game. If you do so, that card nor untap as normal on your
next untap phase.
Good card and not overpower (maybe it become over power in combination
with house of sorrow...).
Malone
I guess something Choir-related will be done. One possibility is to
make in-play Choir cards a resource for something other than being
burned by a superior Choir.
Impenetrable Din
action modifier
1 blood
[chi] +1 stealth, only usable on an action requiring Chimerstry or
Melpominee
[mel] Only usable as an action is announced. Burn X Choir cards you
control to choose a minion with less than 2X blood or life. That
minion cannot block, cast votes or play reaction cards this action.
[MEL] As [mel] but tap the Choir cards instead of burning them.
Edith
5 Daughter of Cacaphony
[chi dem for MEL]
Once per action, Edith may burn 2 Choir cards your control to gain 3
votes or +1 stealth.
There could be a non-Master way to keep choirs around.
Overdub
action/reaction
1 blood
[aus] (reaction) This vampire gains 1 vote, plus an additional vote
for each titled vampire controlled by your predator.
[mel] +1 stealth action. Place this card on a Choir card that does
not already have an Overdub. No further cards may be placed on this
card. While in play, this card is considered a Choir card.
[MEL] As [mel], and when this card and the card it is on would burn,
burn this card but do not burn the Choir it is on.
James Coupe
Potentially problematic when combined with Hanging Fermata, whose
prohibition seems pretty much intended to cap the number of turns things
can hang over. Keep 3, next turn, play more, HF, keep more, following
turn, play more, burn them.
I don't think Choir really wants to head towards building up into a 3
turn, 20 pool make-or-break smash.
James Coupe
>I guess something Choir-related will be done. One possibility is to
>make in-play Choir cards a resource for something other than being
>burned by a superior Choir.
>
>Impenetrable Din
>action modifier
>1 blood
>[chi] +1 stealth, only usable on an action requiring Chimerstry or
>Melpominee
>[mel] Only usable as an action is announced. Burn X Choir cards you
>control to choose a minion with less than 2X blood or life. That
>minion cannot block, cast votes or play reaction cards this action.
>[MEL] As [mel] but tap the Choir cards instead of burning them.
>
>Edith
>5 Daughter of Cacaphony
>[chi dem for MEL]
>Once per action, Edith may burn 2 Choir cards your control to gain 3
>votes or +1 stealth.
I think the idea is interesting - using Choir for something other than
superior Choir - but I think your suggested ideas a bit lack-lustre.
Two actions and two cards to get +1 stealth? Two actions and two cards
to get 3 votes? I can just play Perfect Paragon or Bewitching Oration
and be doing almost as well, and be able to take two more actions.
I could imagine a potential niche for throwing Choirs out of your hand,
though, perhaps. A master card that said "Tap this card and discard a
Choir from your hand to... <do something>." Edith saying "Once per
action, Edith may discard a choir from your hand to... <do something>."
An action modifier that gave you a bonus if you also chuck a Choir.
That sort of thing.
Alternatively, something like a recycler? Recording Booth, loquipment:
If the Daughter with this location is ready when you burn at least one
Choir in play (for a successful [MEL] Choir action from any Daughter you
control), you may move one of those Choir cards back to the top of your
library.
Malone
> Malone <kffos...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> >I guess something Choir-related will be done. One possibility is to
> >make in-play Choir cards a resource for something other than being
> >burned by a superior Choir.
>
> >Impenetrable Din
> >action modifier
> >1 blood
> >[chi] +1 stealth, only usable on an action requiring Chimerstry or
> >Melpominee
> >[mel] Only usable as an action is announced. Burn X Choir cards you
> >control to choose a minion with less than 2X blood or life. That
> >minion cannot block, cast votes or play reaction cards this action.
> >[MEL] As [mel] but tap the Choir cards instead of burning them.
>
> >Edith
> >5 Daughter of Cacaphony
> >[chi dem for MEL]
> >Once per action, Edith may burn 2 Choir cards your control to gain 3
> >votes or +1 stealth.
>
> I think the idea is interesting - using Choir for something other than
> superior Choir - but I think your suggested ideas a bit lack-lustre.
> Two actions and two cards to get +1 stealth? Two actions and two cards
> to get 3 votes? I can just play Perfect Paragon or Bewitching Oration
> and be doing almost as well, and be able to take two more actions.
Yes, Edith's special is weak -- as costed she's not entitled to a
strong special. Change her capacity to 6 and her special to "While
Edith is ready, once per action you may burn a Choir card you control
to give a Daughter of Cacaphony +1 bleed or +1 stealth or 3 additional
votes" if you want. Note also that Edith does not have Presence, so
she could not play Perfect Paragon or Bewitching Oration.
Do you really think Impenetrable Din is lackluster? Yeah, it's not
great at [mel], but at [MEL] it could be used, for example, on the
very Choir Superior action that will burn the Choirs you're tapping to
deny a block. And even at [mel] it'll occasionally be a way to cash
in some Choirs that have been otherwise defused by, for example, your
final Choir Superior attempt getting DI'd or something.
> I could imagine a potential niche for throwing Choirs out of your hand,
> though, perhaps. A master card that said "Tap this card and discard a
> Choir from your hand to... <do something>." Edith saying "Once per
> action, Edith may discard a choir from your hand to... <do something>."
> An action modifier that gave you a bonus if you also chuck a Choir.
> That sort of thing.
Sure, as a special on a vamp, but I think a master that lets you
discard Choirs is going too far.
> Alternatively, something like a recycler? Recording Booth, loquipment:
> If the Daughter with this location is ready when you burn at least one
> Choir in play (for a successful [MEL] Choir action from any Daughter you
> control), you may move one of those Choir cards back to the top of your
> library.
>
Yeah, why not?
Malone
> - which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
> What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
Whispers from the Shadowlands
Master
1 pool
Put this card in play. Damage-dealing strikes requiring Thanatosis
inflict an additional damage. Harbingers of Skulls get +1 stealth on
actions requiring Necromancy. Samedi and Harbingers of Skulls get +1
intercept when a Giovanni is acting.
Japheth
10 Harbinger of Skulls
for obf pre AUS DOM NEC THA
Japheth is immune to damage from Weather Control. Once per turn he
may play a card that requires Animalism, Obfuscate, Potence or Protean
as though he had that discipline at the basic level. +1 intercept.
Cappadocius, Spectre
4 blood
Unique Wraith Ally
3 life, 0 strength, 2 bleed
[aus nec] During your prey's discard phase, burn 1 pool or remove
Cappadocius from the game. Directed actions targeting Cappadocius get
-1 stealth and cost an additional blood. Cappadocius may play cards
requiring any level of Auspex and/or Necromancy as a vampire. He may
strike for 1R damage; once each round of combat after the first he may
strike for 1R aggravated damage. Cappadocius is immune to non-
aggravated damage. He may inflict 2 damage on a ready Giovanni as a
+1 stealth action. He may steal 1 blood or life from a ready minion
as a (D) action.
[AUS NEC] As [aus nec] and when Cappadocius performs a successful
directed action you may burn 1 pool to untap him.
/DRAFT/ [aus] or [nec]: As [aus nec].
The True Vessel
2 pool
equipment, requires Harbingers of Skulls
When the vampire with this equipment puts a vampire into play as an
action, that vampire gains an additional level of Auspex, Necromancy
and Obtenebration. When the vampire with this equipment burns a
mortal ally, put that ally card (or crypt card) in play under your
control as a vampire with capacity equal to the starting life.
Juggernaut1981
Overdub
Action Mod
1 blood
[cel] If this action is not a bleed action, this vampire untaps after
the action is successful.
[mel] If this action is successful, this acting vampire untaps after
the action.
[MEL] Put the action card for this current action in play. DoC you
control may use the action card as if it was in your hand. Burn this
action card during your discard phase.
Impenetrable Din Mk2
Impenetrable Din
Action Mod
1 blood
[chi] Only usable during an action requiring [chi] or [mel]. +1
stealth
[mel] Usable by a vampire other than the acting vampire. The acting
vampire gains +1 stealth.
[MEL] as per [mel] but you may choose X additional untapped DoC, each
DoC burns 1 blood to give the acting vampire +X stealth.
Kevin Walsh
> Overdub
> Action Mod
> 1 blood
> [cel] If this action is not a bleed action, this vampire untaps after
> the action is successful.
> [mel] If this action is successful, this acting vampire untaps after
> the action.
> [MEL] Put the action card for this current action in play. DoC you
> control may use the action card as if it was in your hand. Burn this
> action card during your discard phase.
>
superior on top of that is rather godly.
Kevin Walsh
Malone
> - which Bloodlines do you think are most in need of a shot in the arm?
> And what sort of shot do you think that should be?
> What are your thoughts and hopes? What would make your day?
Malice Aforethought
action modifier
[thn] Only usable on a (D) action. Cancel a reaction requiring Auspex
or Dominate as it is played or cancel the effect of a Power requiring
Defense or Judgment as it is used.
[val] Only usable when an action to enter combat is declared. For
the remainder of this action, strikes to end combat cost an additional
blood.
[VAL] Only usable when a bleed action is declared. For the remainder
of this action, whenever a card is played that would change the target
of the bleed this acting vampire may burn a blood to cancel that card
and gain +1 bleed.
Juggernaut1981
Overdub MK 3
Overdub
Action Mod
1 blood
[cel] If this action is not a bleed action, this vampire untaps after
the action is successful.
[mel] If this action is successful, this acting vampire untaps after
the action.
[MEL] Only usable on an action requiring [mel] or DoC. Put the action
Juggernaut1981
Lust for Violence
Action Mod
1 blood
[pot] Only usable on an action as it is declared. This vampire is
immune to Frenzy and gains +1 strength during combat if any.
[thn] or [val] Only usable on an action to enter combat as it is
declared. For the remainder of the action S:CE and S:D cost the
opposing minion 1 additional blood. This vampire is immune to Frenzy.
[THN] or [VAL] Only usable during a bleed action. Cancel a card that
would change the target of this bleed. That card cannot be played
again during this action. This action gains +1 bleed and no cards can
be used to increase the bleed for this action.