Tips on What *Not* To Do
Halcyan 2
predator's first turn, he played Parthenon + Anarch Revolt, making the rest of
the table groan in consternation. As a result, all of the other players teamed
up against him initially, while he kept claiming that it wasn't an AR deck, and
that he wasn't playing with Anson.
It turns out the deck wasn't an AR deck but nonetheless, he shouldn't have been
surprised by the table's reaction. This just got me to thinking about some
things that a player generally should not do in the first few turns. Note that
if your deck is *supposed* to abuse the mentioned cards, then don't hold back.
But if you just casually have one or two copies, then you might want to avoid
some potential misunderstandings. In no particular order:
#1. Play Parthenon + Anarch Revolt. Unless your deck *is* an Anarch Revolt deck
(so people will get pissed eventually), doing this during your first turn means
you'll spend the rest of the game telling people you *aren't* playing an AR
deck.
#2. Discard either Baltimore Purge or Protect Thine Own. Doing so makes people
cringe. They might assume you're playing a BP deck or might do pre-emptive
rushes to make sure you can't PTO them. If you're really handjammed I guess you
can discard one of these, but it's still not recommended early on.
#3. Influence out Arika or Leandro first. Lots of decks do it (and I often do
it for strategic reasons) but Arika/Leandro comes out with a giant target on
the forehead, so don't be surprised if the reaction is very hostile.
#4. Play/discard Smiling Jack. Not as serious but some people might assume
you're playing a wall deck and act accordingly. I know I've been guilty of
first turn Jacks on IRC (2 copies in my whole deck and I keep getting them when
I get a crap draw so I need to cycle). But it's generally frowned upon.
Anyone care to make their own additions?
Halcyan 2
Oko
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:20040129093820...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Play only sucky decks which roll over for the Assamites.
That's about it.
Curevei
>been
>surprised by the table's reaction. This just got me to thinking about some
>things that a player generally should not do in the first few turns.
Specifically, this may not only fail to sound bad, it could theoretically get
you some credit, but it was the finals and some didn't know my deck and none
knew me. I knew I was doomed when:
Turn one: Information Highway, 5 transfers.
Turn two: Bring out Sutekh.
Turn three: Minion Tap for 10, Ivory Bow, bring out 5 cap.
Turn four: Giant's Blood, get Repo Man, do something else, bring out 7 cap.
Turn five: Minion Tap for 9. Etc.
I just couldn't see sandbagging as I was curious as to what the deck did when
it had an optimal draw, though it really didn't after the early plays, and it
was funny that the deck could seem at all threatening.
In my experiences, there is often antagonism towards any sort of flashy early
game whether it's bring out a bunch of weenies (I got away with a weenie vote
looking start one time because an opponent trusted me to tell the truth that it
wasn't weenie vote and knew that such decks weren't my normal sort) or start
bleeding for 4-6 in the first few turns or whatever. "Flashy" has become the
word to represent "clear leader", which we used a lot in another CCG, or "table
threat" or whatever. I routinely play with someone who thinks crosstabling
someone flashy make sense. I think he mistakes the need for concern with the
need for action.
Wouter Kuyper
> Earlier today on IRC, I played an interesting 4-player game. During my
> predator's first turn, he played Parthenon + Anarch Revolt, making the rest of
> the table groan in consternation. As a result, all of the other players teamed
> up against him initially, while he kept claiming that it wasn't an AR deck, and
> that he wasn't playing with Anson.
Boy, i wonder who that was
:-)
All good tips ofcourse, but very environment dependent i would say.
I've played in environments where it was a very logical idea to rush
the one with obf-weenies or dominate-weenies or stealth-bleed, or
where at least you sorta help the meth that's been preyed on by these
decks.
And mostly the decks that play Arika or Leandro are watched with
Caution, but not directly attacked or something. Things like that.
so..all very environment dependent.... i would never bring out a
obf-dom-malk as first vamp if i have a choice.
W
Timlagor
> #3. Influence out Arika or Leandro first. Lots of decks do it (and I often do
> it for strategic reasons) but Arika/Leandro comes out with a giant target on
> the forehead, so don't be surprised if the reaction is very hostile.
I disagree. I realise that they come out with target signs but if you
are playing them you have to bring them out first. Arika because she can
Govern any other vampire in your deck and Leandro because.. well..
that's why you're playing him. If you don't want them first you probably
don't want them at all. On the other hand if you do want them and dont'
need them first then don't bring them out first :)
Aramis
> deck
> > (so people will get pissed eventually), doing this during your first turn
> means
> > you'll spend the rest of the game telling people you *aren't* playing an
> AR
> > deck.
> >
> > #2. Discard either Baltimore Purge or Protect Thine Own. Doing so makes
> people
> > cringe. They might assume you're playing a BP deck or might do pre-emptive
> > rushes to make sure you can't PTO them. If you're really handjammed I
> guess you
> > can discard one of these, but it's still not recommended early on.
> >
> > #3. Influence out Arika or Leandro first. Lots of decks do it (and I often
> do
> > it for strategic reasons) but Arika/Leandro comes out with a giant target
> on
> > the forehead, so don't be surprised if the reaction is very hostile.
> >
> > #4. Play/discard Smiling Jack. Not as serious but some people might assume
> > you're playing a wall deck and act accordingly. I know I've been guilty of
> > first turn Jacks on IRC (2 copies in my whole deck and I keep getting them
> when
> > I get a crap draw so I need to cycle). But it's generally frowned upon.
#5. Play multiple Slaughterhouses early game. Even though it's
totally counter-productive, I've seen people do everything in their
power to foil someone that plays a milling deck. Something about it
not being "fun"... Not like you need to play multiple Slaughterhouses
anyways until the end of the game where they are useful to push ahead
a Brinksmanship oust.
#6. Play Le Dihn Tho casually. Like Arika, influencing this vampire
up is painting a big bullseye on your forehead. This is mainly
because it means you're playing Giovanni S&B and you deserve the hate
anyways, but still it's one of those abilities that screams "come kill
me now".
That's about it I think.
Aramis
mgreen02
> #3. Influence out Arika or Leandro first. Lots of decks do it (and I often do
> it for strategic reasons) but Arika/Leandro comes out with a giant target on
> the forehead, so don't be surprised if the reaction is very hostile.
I'm with you on not bringing Arika out first. People get twichy about
turbo-Arika. Or at least they should do. I do.
However, I always bring Leandro out first given a chance- he does the
most damage early in the game. His ability can inflict significant
damage on your predator and play and can mean the difference between
them affording vampires. That's worth the odd rush IMO.
>
> Anyone care to make their own additions?
>
Play Coroner's Contact choosing The Baron unless you are playing a
combo-baron deck. Even then, good luck.
Matt.
Fredrik Ljungberg
Start with Info Highway and throw up 4 panders, discarding a Legacy of Pander.
Guaranteed to get attention.
Fredrik Ljungberg
Another one, although not a first turn "mistake".
Put a lowcap into play and bleed for 7 (GtU+CotB+Conditioning)on your
2:nd or 3:rd turn (depending on starting influence).
Guaranteed to get unwanted attention.
Another mistake:
Say "shit I forgot to add wakes and/or intercept to this deck"
Curevei
So, playing him seriously, like in a Nagaraja deck, is okay? Actually, my
experience is that that works.
Timlagor
> Anyone care to make their own additions?
Never play Form of Corruption. Ever.
(expecially against a combat deck ;)
There is nothing that says "come backwards" more clearly.
noodleboy
Pulling out any 9,10,11 cap vampire before you know what you're facing
is usually ill-advised, unless of course your deck is based around
that particular vamp [Laz wall, Ivan Eye rush, etc]
noodleboy
kevin scribner
v:tes..."
-- don't let your prey sweep the table, under any circumstances...
the ultimate insult to a v:tes player may very well be: "so,
knuckles, your prey swept the table... *again*..."
-- don't oust your predator / cross-table buddy by accident... if you
meant to do it, that's one thing... if you just did it because you're
a putz, don't do that...!!!
-- don't ever put your dick in a meatgrinder, even if it's not plugged
in... oops: that was supposed to get posted to a different forum...
*sheepish grin*
-- don't play cards that give your opponents benefits nor options,
unless there's an important reason for giving them to them...
examples: the admonitions, powerbase: montreal, fragment of the book
of nod, the rack, et cetera... your life is going to be hard enough
getting an oust as it is, don't make it any harder... and if you so
play with things that can be taken away from you, don't play them
thinking, "i can protect it," because the second you start looking
strong, the table is going to gang rape you and prove you wrong...
instead, make sure you can *get it back...*
-- don't play "come get me" cards unless you're 100% sure you can play
3 on 1 or 4 on 1... because once you get your defense set up, and
start looking strong, here come your 4 opponents, and you drew the map
for them...
-- don't expect help from your "cross-table buddies..." there are no
cross-table buddies...!!! you have 4 opponents, and don't forget
it... if you get help, it's not help: it's a self-serving action
taken by one of your opponent to thwart another of your opponents...
so don't feel compelled to abase yourself to someone who offers you
"help..." if it didn't advance their agenda, they wouldn't even be
considering it...
-- don't mix pre-camarilla-edition cards and post-bloodlines cards in
the same crypt nor library... it's bad ju-ju... the spirits of your
ancestors will haunt you for ten thousand years... blood will rain
from the sky... crops will fail... your tax returns will wither away
to nothing...
-- don't break deals... even to win tournaments... it makes your a
big jerk... "bust a deal, face the wheel..."
-- don't listen to anything i say, in game, nor out... i'm not to be
trusted... hell, *i* don't even trust me...
:)
peace --
-- khs
"eritis sicut dii, scientes bonum et malum..."
Albert Chang
news:67327703.04012...@posting.google.com...
> -- don't mix pre-camarilla-edition cards and post-bloodlines cards in
> the same crypt nor library... it's bad ju-ju... the spirits of your
> ancestors will haunt you for ten thousand years... blood will rain
> from the sky... crops will fail... your tax returns will wither away
> to nothing...
Maybe that's why the only tournament I've won is with a Jyhad only deck...
Albert Chang
matkov
I have good experience with form of corruption, when I promise that I
will not use it on my prey. (I always stays after my word, but this
only work when other players know you will not betray them)
Have a nice day.
Derek Ray
mat...@mail.host.sk (matkov) mumbled something about:
Other players must not read the card then. Card text:
"[ser] Put this card in play. You may not play this card if you already
have a Form of Corruption card in play. Each time ***your prey*** gets
the Edge anew, put a form counter on this card. During your master
phase, if the number of counters on this card equals or exceeds the
amount of blood on a vampire ***controlled by your prey***, you may burn
this card to take control of that vampire. [SER] As above, and ***your
prey*** burns 1 pool when you burn this card."
The bits marked off with asterisks are of particular note.
-- Derek
Deafness never kept composers from hearing the music.
It only stopped them hearing the distractions.
Derek Ray
halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) mumbled something about:
>Anyone care to make their own additions?
#0: Don't Wear Pants.
Emile Bosman
Bringing out an IC followed by the words "I'm not to afraid of my
prey's Beast I'll PTO him next turn"
Or saying to you're grand predator that he shouldn't bleed his S&B
prey since you have no bounce left.
Emile
"We are an ape with a symbiotic relationship to a mushroom"
Tobias
> #3. Influence out Arika or Leandro first. Lots of decks do it (and I often do
> it for strategic reasons) but Arika/Leandro comes out with a giant target on
> the forehead, so don't be surprised if the reaction is very hostile.
When I'm playing old obf ventrue vote, I generally prefer to get out a
prince first... since it generally will take a while to get it (or
multiple minions in general) out, I prefer to have my access to 2nds,
kindred restructure and parity shifts ASAP.
And it doesn't trigger the Arika-destroyers... although Wouter is
right, over here, we keep a close eye on her, but generally don't
pre-emptively rush her. Of course, in the last tournament over here, I
WOULD'VE rushed Arika cross-table with my Lazverinus if I'd met her in
a prelim round - since the pickup game quite effectively demonstrated
what Arika does to Laz.
--
Tobias
Deventer
Timlagor
The point being that he plans to use afterhe ousts his original prey. As
a Grandprey this sort of behavour would bother me.
Kamel SENNI
"I bring out Boss Cailean, and Zebulon".
Sometimes a guy will notice something you miss when you've build the deck...
Kamel Senni,
Prince of Paris.
Jeroen
>
First Turn (4 transfers): play parthenon, tap parthenon, play Zillah's
Valley, bring out Anson.
Second Turn: play Zillah's Valley TWICE, play Protected Rescources,
bring out Anneke.
Turn 3: Minion Tap (not too much!) + Torrey Grand Ball + Parity shift
Colin McGuigan
God, that's beautiful.
--Colin McGuigan
kushiel
Right...but you need not use the FoC against the person who was your prey
when you put it into play. You can just wait until you oust your prey and
then burn the FoC to grab one of your new prey's vampires. I thought this
was pretty standard FoC usage, no?
Kushiel
hawk_the_demon
> The point being that he plans to use afterhe ousts his original prey. As
> a Grandprey this sort of behavour would bother me.
as a prey, this would bother me even more. he's basically saying: 'You
are not to be worried about, I'll only use it when I've ousted you.'
which is either
a) a promise that he has a plan that will oust you (which he should
have, of course).
b) an insult on your deckbuilding and/or playing abilities.
in either case, he should be tought a lesson ;-)
Brian White
1) Don't forget that Inner circle members CAN'T play "only usable by a
prince or justicar" cards.
2) Don't forget that after you have played a secret horde, you
predator can have a little nibble at you.
3) Malkavian pranks, games and game of the malkav can really screw up
the whole balance of the table. Use with caution and not suicidal
abandon (like wot I duz).
4) Kill off your prey in 1 go, if you let them hang on or your opening
yourself up the "Kindred restructure/Dramatic upheaval" snipe-pain.
5) Don't avoid limited format tourny's, they are the best way of
learning and great fun in a very fair enviroment.
6) Don't play "Anarch Revolt" within 10 miles of Watford unless you
like a spit shower and enjoy pain.
7) Don't play Stealth-Bleed. EVER. It is no fun to play against, they
are dull, they can't be any fun to play with. They don't improve the
game. I would rather lose with an interesting deck than win with a
stealth-bleed. Not so much a mistake, more of a OT rant. Sorry. :)
8) Don't NOT hit anyone who tells you in confidence that "Ducks quacks
don't echo". Hit them, they will thank you later.
More when I do them (That will be tuesday then)
Brian "ov two bye a dikshonary" W.
Noal McDonald
> -- don't break deals... even to win tournaments... it makes your a
> big jerk... "bust a deal, face the wheel..."
Well, I've never concerned myself with whether others thought I was a
"big jerk" or not, so I happily break deals whenever I feel the need
to do so.
Isn't that right, Wes? :-)
*plays Malkavian Prank*
"Wes, what can you do for me in exchange for 4 pool?"
"Uh...I don't know. Not block your next vote?"
"Done."
*everyone puts pool in their hand*
"3. 3. 3." *looks at Wes* "4."
Hee hee.
Regards,
Noal
Maxie_Zeus
first time I played with it, on the second round I had two daugthers
up, and had the luck to have one KRContested, one called it, the
second Echoed it, so 6 of pool to my prey.
Never got a chance to do anything else in the whole game... (or games
since)
Ben Swainbank
> my personal additions, which are a part of my forthcoming, "the tao of
> v:tes..."
>
>
> in... oops: that was supposed to get posted to a different forum...
> *sheepish grin*
This is great v:tes advice. "dick in meatgrinder" is a nice analogy
for doing something that:
1) won't benefit you much if you pull it off
2) will be catastrophic if you don't
This most frequent v:tes examples are being insufficently cautious
around combat decks; blocking actions that didn't need to get blocked
or taking actions that can be blocked...without having the hand to
back it up.
>
> -- don't play cards that give your opponents benefits nor options,
> unless there's an important reason for giving them to them...
> examples: the admonitions, powerbase: montreal, fragment of the book
> of nod, the rack, et cetera...
What? I love that stuff. Don't play them if you can't defend them, but
I use then extensively and they've won me far more games than they've
cost me. Fraggie is especially nice. The effect is subtle enough that
people don't tend to risk "the meatgrinder" to go after it.
>
> -- don't expect help from your "cross-table buddies..." there are no
> cross-table buddies...!!! you have 4 opponents, and don't forget
> it... if you get help, it's not help: it's a self-serving action
> taken by one of your opponent to thwart another of your opponents...
> so don't feel compelled to abase yourself to someone who offers you
> "help..." if it didn't advance their agenda, they wouldn't even be
> considering it...
Good advice. And the corrolary is don't waste your time and resources
helping out your "cross-table buddy". He's only worth helping to the
limited extent propping him up will help you win.
-Ben Swainbank
Derek Ray
Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray expounded:
>> amount of blood on a vampire ***controlled by your prey***, you may burn
>> this card to take control of that vampire. [SER] As above, and ***your
>> prey*** burns 1 pool when you burn this card."
>>
>> The bits marked off with asterisks are of particular note.
>
>The point being that he plans to use afterhe ousts his original prey. As
>a Grandprey this sort of behavour would bother me.
It'd just provoke me to strike upstream if he ever got close to ousting
his original prey, honestly... as opposed to waiting. Odds are that
would provoke HIM to use the Form against his prey, because when you've
just lost a couple minions, you'll need another one NOW, not later.
Form of Corruption is a difficult card to use effectively. You must be
playing a heavy-stealth, heavy-combat-defense deck, in my opinion,
because if your prey is a bleed deck, they will simply take no offensive
actions until you are ousted, and if possible Rush you backwards until
you're gone. Since it is entirely possible your prey will wall up like
this, you need to be prepared to blow your offense past him ANYWAY, and
you need to be ready to either lose some minions or beat down a wall.
Derek Ray
thisi_s...@yahoo.com (kushiel) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<7v0k10huedbth5325...@4ax.com>...
>
>Right...but you need not use the FoC against the person who was your prey
>when you put it into play. You can just wait until you oust your prey and
>then burn the FoC to grab one of your new prey's vampires. I thought this
>was pretty standard FoC usage, no?
Why would your prey ever bleed with this card in play? It's like saying
"Hey, take one of my vampires, please."
It doesn't really matter what you _say_. When it comes down to it
you'll burn the Form when it's best for you, and most of the time that's
going to be as soon as you can possibly take one of your prey's vamps.
Derek Ray
bswai...@hotmail.com (Ben Swainbank) mumbled something about:
>This is great v:tes advice. "dick in meatgrinder" is a nice analogy
>for doing something that:
>
>1) won't benefit you much if you pull it off
>2) will be catastrophic if you don't
Oftentimes, it is also a good analogy for doing things which will:
1) Benefit you lots but NOT win you the game if you pull it off.
>This most frequent v:tes examples are being insufficently cautious
>around combat decks; blocking actions that didn't need to get blocked
>or taking actions that can be blocked...without having the hand to
>back it up.
OR trying to see too far into the future... or trying to push things
faster than they need to go.
I'll give a recent example from my own tournament play here, and ask
"What would you do?" in this situation... hopefully enough people are
reading this portion to get some useful opinions. (LSJ is NOT eligible
to respond.)
I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
Carter has a Blood Doll on him -- nobody else does. My hand is Communal
Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
else knows this.
My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
>Good advice. And the corrolary is don't waste your time and resources
>helping out your "cross-table buddy". He's only worth helping to the
>limited extent propping him up will help you win.
There is a point in time which you must look at someone and say "Yeah, I
think you're dead no matter what I do." =)
Jozxyqk
> In message <6f98ce2a.0401...@posting.google.com>,
> thisi_s...@yahoo.com (kushiel) mumbled something about:
>>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<7v0k10huedbth5325...@4ax.com>...
>>
>>Right...but you need not use the FoC against the person who was your prey
>>when you put it into play. You can just wait until you oust your prey and
>>then burn the FoC to grab one of your new prey's vampires. I thought this
>>was pretty standard FoC usage, no?
> Why would your prey ever bleed with this card in play? It's like saying
> "Hey, take one of my vampires, please."
That gives me a great idea for a Caitiff/Pander disadvantage:
"When this vampire bleeds, his controller does not gain the Edge."
Wes
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> Form of Corruption is a difficult card to use effectively. You must
be
> playing a heavy-stealth, heavy-combat-defense deck, in my opinion,
> because if your prey is a bleed deck, they will simply take no
offensive
> actions until you are ousted, and if possible Rush you backwards until
> you're gone. Since it is entirely possible your prey will wall up
like
> this, you need to be prepared to blow your offense past him ANYWAY,
and
> you need to be ready to either lose some minions or beat down a wall.
In my experience, Form of Corrption usually *pops* with zero counters on
it. So not bleeding isn't always a defense against losing vampires to
Form of Corruption. Not having empty vampires is far more useful to the
FoC victim, and that's difficult to manage with a Setite predator.
It is correct that FoC will slow down your prey (or some types of prey).
But this is not always a bad thing, therefore I am not sure why some
people present it as a bad thing (not you, but someone earlier in the
thread). The object is to oust your prey, and that becomes a much easier
task when they aren't ousting theirs :)
(Besides, I tend to look at my grand-prey as the main course after the
hors-d'ouevre that is my current prey).
I would say that the best deck archetype to use with FoC is not
necessarily heavy stealth... after all, that's just the delivery system.
Form of Mist works much better than stealth in my experience. Of course,
stealth in general is sine qua non with most Setite decks so the point
is moot.
Additionally, having some way to survive combat is essential for
Setites, but not particularly because of FoC alone. A combat-heavy prey
would be well-advised to pound on a Setite predator on principle, as
Setites are by nature an offense-heavy clan. We make for tame preys and
*nasty* predators.
The best archetype for FoC in my opinion would be one that capitalizes
on the card itself. Use cards that diminish blood from your prey's
vampires like Free States Rant, Consignment to Duat etc.
Also, having a way to block or prevent hunts is useful. An empty vampire
will always hunt and thus have one blood when FoC would pop. This is not
good. Thus, having some way of preventing that hunt is an ideal way to
get that vampire to have 0 blood, matched with FoC's assumed 0 counters.
My recent Nadima deck managed this by virtue of walling with intercept
and Earth Meld, allowing me to block hunts but leave the victim ready
for FoC on my turn. In fact, I managed to steal two or three vampires
the whole day with my *only* copy of Form of Corruption in the deck.
Another one or two FoC have already been added...
[This post brought to you by the Setite Anti-Defamation Committee]
Cheers,
WES
Curevei
>"What would you do?" in this situation... hopefully enough people are
>reading this portion to get some useful opinions. (LSJ is NOT eligible
>to respond.)
>
>I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
>
>Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
>
>Carter has a Blood Doll on him -- nobody else does. My hand is Communal
>Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
>Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
>deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
>else knows this.
>
>My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
>blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
>untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>
>It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
>Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
>predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
>
>Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
>
>My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
>Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
I guess I take the 8 pool as 17 pool is a lot harder for three vamps with
Dominate to go through when I have no way of blocking or bouncing than 7 pool
is. Plus, it makes it more affordable to play the Communal on my next turn as
well as the weapons. Though, if I was in a mood for getting it over with one
way or another and had gotten any sense of my prey's deck, it's possible I'd
pay for the "surprise bleed four times for 1 when my prey is at 4 and tapped
out" strategy.
Could depend a lot on how I'm doing in the tournament and what sort of success
is important to achieve this game. There's a strategy to assuming things to be
true when you need them to be true to succeed. Things like my predator not
using more than one bleed pump this turn or my prey having run out of wakes or
whatever.
Reyda
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
> I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
>
> Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
>
> Carter has a Blood Doll on him -- nobody else does. My hand is Communal
> Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
> Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
> deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
> else knows this.
>
> My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
> blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
> untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>
> It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
> Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
> predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
>
> Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
>
> My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
> Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
You have no means to untap, and your predator is playing big dominate.
In a hostile environment, with players not really caring about discussion, I
would take the 8 pool -does not really matter that i lose the 3 priscus vote
from Venere.
But on the other hand, if you are skilled in the bluff stuff (and are about
sure your predator's hand does not contains 3 copies of Conditioning ;) )
you can still talk with your prey and say : "hey, i'll make Lucas Halton pay
for this ! it's a guaranteed burn but are you ready to rescue my vampire in
exchange ?" Odds are your predator will be disturbed by the revelation that
you can burn one of his precious vamps (8, 9 and 10 cap are so valuable and
losing one of them also means losing the vote lock) and then he may stand
here in a defensive stance. You talk, wait for you prey's answer : if he's
in, your predator will be somewhat shaken and will knwo that both of you are
after him. He will certainly adopt a defensive stance right away and not
suck your pool be attempting 3 juicy bleeds.
It all depends on your talking skills, really ;)
reyda
Reyda
"Kamel SENNI" <kamel...@yvelines.pref.gouv.fr> wrote in message
news:1b066664.0401...@posting.google.com...
Groupiiiiiing ! Groupiiiiiiiing !!! nyahahahaha !
Oko
> Also, having a way to block or prevent hunts is useful. An empty vampire
> will always hunt and thus have one blood when FoC would pop. This is not
> good. Thus, having some way of preventing that hunt is an ideal way to
> get that vampire to have 0 blood, matched with FoC's assumed 0 counters.
> My recent Nadima deck managed this by virtue of walling with intercept
> and Earth Meld, allowing me to block hunts but leave the victim ready
> for FoC on my turn. In fact, I managed to steal two or three vampires
> the whole day with my *only* copy of Form of Corruption in the deck.
> Another one or two FoC have already been added...
You burn the Form when you take over a vampire. ;)
Derek Ray
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> mumbled something about:
>In my experience, Form of Corrption usually *pops* with zero counters on
>it. So not bleeding isn't always a defense against losing vampires to
>Form of Corruption. Not having empty vampires is far more useful to the
>FoC victim, and that's difficult to manage with a Setite predator.
I've always felt that if I can force my predator to take an EMPTY minion
of mine, then I've managed some success. Once the card is in play, I
can do nothing about it -- but I can certainly not play directly into my
predator's plans by bleeding. If I happen to be an all-vote or all-Rush
deck then I'm ahead of the game, of course. All these examples assume
that some form of bleed is the prey's forward offense.
Again, this doesn't remove the need for heavy stealth in your deck. You
MUST have a way to handle blockers -- what happens when your prey leaves
all his vampires untapped? He won't have any empty vampires, he won't
inherently be getting his vampires empty, then what?
>It is correct that FoC will slow down your prey (or some types of prey).
>But this is not always a bad thing, therefore I am not sure why some
>people present it as a bad thing (not you, but someone earlier in the
>thread). The object is to oust your prey, and that becomes a much easier
>task when they aren't ousting theirs :)
I absolutely cannot agree. It is very, very difficult to oust a prey
who will take no actions and spend no pool, unless you have LOTS of
stealth or they have absolutely no intercept.
Even a simple untapped Sport Bike will cause you to burn stealth like
mad. Let's assume that your prey has three 5-cap minions and 15 pool,
and one of those minions has a Sport Bike. You put Form of Corruption
in play -- he stays untapped forever.
If you're trying to bleed, he blocks with a 0-intercept minion, then the
1-intercept minion, forcing you to use two stealth cards OR a LiC just
to get the bleed through. He can do this for every bleed, every time --
if you ever run out of stealth, you'll be in trouble. Given that the
typical defense to stealth/bleed is "no block", a lot of decks have
taken to going lighter and lighter on stealth these days. If he happens
to be able to generate additional intercept, that's even more annoying.
If you're trying to vote him down, the 1-intercept minion still tries to
block everything you do, forcing you to have one stealth card in hand
per vote. Assuming the votes are FSR, he can do this almost forever --
you empty out the guy with the Sport Bike, who hunts (you block it), and
then the next guy over takes the Sport Bike off the empty minion.
>I would say that the best deck archetype to use with FoC is not
>necessarily heavy stealth... after all, that's just the delivery system.
Yes, but it's a delivery system you'll need no matter what.
>Additionally, having some way to survive combat is essential for
>Setites, but not particularly because of FoC alone. A combat-heavy prey
>would be well-advised to pound on a Setite predator on principle, as
>Setites are by nature an offense-heavy clan. We make for tame preys and
>*nasty* predators.
Correct. But putting a FoC in play is, in my opinion, a valid reason to
oust backwards, if ANY part of my deck's offense depends on bleed.
There is no other way to protect yourself from the card, and attempting
to "work around" it is just playing directly into the Setite player's
hands.
>for FoC on my turn. In fact, I managed to steal two or three vampires
>the whole day with my *only* copy of Form of Corruption in the deck.
>Another one or two FoC have already been added...
This is why I kill backwards when I see the card. Putting it in play
guarantees you'll get at least an empty vampire, if you can survive that
long. I'm not interested in having my empty vampires taken. =)
Derek Ray
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) mumbled something about:
>>Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
>
>Could depend a lot on how I'm doing in the tournament and what sort of success
>is important to achieve this game. There's a strategy to assuming things to be
>true when you need them to be true to succeed. Things like my predator not
>using more than one bleed pump this turn or my prey having run out of wakes or
>whatever.
I can give you a bit more information.
-- This is the second round of a 3-round, 12-player tournament.
-- You got 2VP in the first round, but no Table Win. Your grandpredator
was Ahrimanes intercept who, by the time you got to him, had 3 Murder of
Crows on Howler (anathema for a CEL gun deck), so you have no reason to
believe that your deck is constructed poorly.
Derek Ray
"Reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> mumbled something about:
>But on the other hand, if you are skilled in the bluff stuff (and are about
>sure your predator's hand does not contains 3 copies of Conditioning ;) )
While I do have Aura Reading in the deck, I have not yet entered combat
with my predator, so I know no concrete information about his hand.
>you can still talk with your prey and say : "hey, i'll make Lucas Halton pay
>for this ! it's a guaranteed burn but are you ready to rescue my vampire in
>exchange ?" Odds are your predator will be disturbed by the revelation that
>you can burn one of his precious vamps (8, 9 and 10 cap are so valuable and
You did read the part where I said "skilled, experienced players"? =)
Nobody at the table would believe that any of my vampires would be
capable of burning Lucas Halton. Remember, I'm showing AUS/CEL/PRE and
the only guy with big Celerity does not even HAVE a gun. I'd have to
Conceal out a .44, Dodge, Blur, and blow up the gun on my 3rd strike
with Dragon's Breath Rounds -- that's five cards and two more pool
spent, leaving me at only 5!
The players in this situation would say "Show me", if I said that. =)
>It all depends on your talking skills, really ;)
It's a lot more than talking skills in THAT case -- you have to
represent something that you might realistically have in your hand! =)
(It's almost IDENTICAL to bluffing in poker, as a matter of fact.)
After enough people respond, or I get enough blank-stares, I'll give
full details of how it all ACTUALLY went down. And if enough people
seem to be intrigued by this, I'll start keeping more notes in my weekly
games and such -- I think stuff like this might be pretty fun, along the
lines of the old "puzzlers" but without the frantic searching for
loopholes.
Reyda
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
> You did read the part where I said "skilled, experienced players"? =)
yes, of course. Often, the mind trick would work on the most experienced
players. Plus , being yourself an experienced player, they should expect you
to fullfill whatever goal you promise. WHen you say "i guarantee i can burn
his vampire" , they should not take it lightly, me thinks.
> Nobody at the table would believe that any of my vampires would be
> capable of burning Lucas Halton. Remember, I'm showing AUS/CEL/PRE and
> the only guy with big Celerity does not even HAVE a gun.
Just say you have a communal haven cathedral in your hand, which will allow
you to put the .44 from sabrina on Venere. You can also add that you have a
Dragon breath round in hand (which would be pure bluff, but a highly common
occurence : playing intercept + guns + a few dragon breath is common in my
book ;) )
> I'd have to
> Conceal out a .44, Dodge, Blur, and blow up the gun on my 3rd strike
> with Dragon's Breath Rounds -- that's five cards and two more pool
> spent, leaving me at only 5!
With the cathedral, it's only one pool (easily recoverd from the blood doll)
and you may also state that you will move nearly all the blood from Venere
to sabrina so tremere targetted b y the attack will not gain blood during
the fight.
> The players in this situation would say "Show me", if I said that. =)
>
> >It all depends on your talking skills, really ;)
>
> It's a lot more than talking skills in THAT case -- you have to
> represent something that you might realistically have in your hand! =)
> (It's almost IDENTICAL to bluffing in poker, as a matter of fact.)
No, i think you often have an ideal hand but can't decide whether to use it
on your predator or prey -especially when the game is down to 3 players.
I often got myself out of trouvle using this kind of tricks. And if you know
your deck is capable of something, just gamble on it :)
Wes
"Oko" <o...@vedatassuus.com> wrote
>
> In fact, I managed to steal two or three vampires
> > the whole day with my *only* copy of Form of Corruption in the deck.
> > Another one or two FoC have already been added...
>
> You burn the Form when you take over a vampire. ;)
Yes of course. But in a tournament, you also play *multiple preliminary
rounds* :)
I suppose I got lucky with that particular prayer card that day...
Cheers,
WES
Oko
"Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:bvgqr...@enews1.newsguy.com...
That part about "whole day" must have eluded me totally. ;)
Ben Swainbank
> In message <b20d2553.04013...@posting.google.com>,
> bswai...@hotmail.com (Ben Swainbank) mumbled something about:
>
> >This is great v:tes advice. "dick in meatgrinder" is a nice analogy
> >for doing something that:
> >
>
> 1) Benefit you lots but NOT win you the game if you pull it off.
>
Maybe this is just inexperience talking, but I don't see how sticking
your dick in a meatgrinder would ever "Benefit you lots".
> I'll give a recent example from my own tournament play here, and ask
> "What would you do?" in this situation...
>
> I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
>
> Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
>
>
> My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
> Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
>
You take the 8 pool. Keeping Venere won't help you survive your
predator's turn. And probably won't let you oust on your turn (if you
make it that far). From there you stop taking undirected actions,
queue up a new 4th minion to bring out, discard your equipment ASAP,
and look for a bounce card or Pala Grande you can use to finish off
your prey, hopefully within 2-3 turns.
-Ben Swainbank
kevin scribner
> (kevin scribner) wrote:
> > -- don't break deals... even to win tournaments... it makes your a
> > big jerk... "bust a deal, face the wheel..."
>
> Well, I've never concerned myself with whether others thought I was a
> "big jerk" or not, so I happily break deals whenever I feel the need
> to do so.
well, realistically speaking, everybody already knows i'm a big jerk,
but i don't want to be known as *that* kind of big jerk...
or, to quote george clooney at the end of *dusk 'til dawn*:
"i may be a bastard, but i'm not a *fucking* bastard..."
i think i'v just quantified my life's philosophy...
peace --
-- khs
"eritis sicut dii, scientes bonum et malum... et bastardes..."
kevin scribner
> kevins...@airbridge.net (kevin scribner) wrote in message news:<67327703.04012...@posting.google.com>...
> > my personal additions, which are a part of my forthcoming, "the tao of
> > v:tes..."
> >
> >
> > -- don't ever put your dick in a meatgrinder, even if it's not plugged
> > in... oops: that was supposed to get posted to a different forum...
> > *sheepish grin*
well, i was actually referring to my tumescent manhood and any device
designed to grind the flesh of domesticated animals, but i guess it's
good that you managed to put something like vtes-related, positive
spin on it...
my reasoning being, of course, that the excuse, "but it wasn't even
plugged in...!!!" even when delivered in a necessarily squeaky voice,
generally, when relating to penis / meat grinder accidents, fails to
elicit much in the way of sympathetic response...
[yes, vtes-community-at-large, i *am* just as twisted an individual as
you are currently supposing i must be...]
> This is great v:tes advice. "dick in meatgrinder" is a nice analogy
> for doing something that:
>
> 1) won't benefit you much if you pull it off
> 2) will be catastrophic if you don't
>
> This most frequent v:tes examples are being insufficently cautious
> around combat decks; blocking actions that didn't need to get blocked
> or taking actions that can be blocked...without having the hand to
> back it up.
i am in full agreement with you on the "blocking actions that didn't
need to get blocked" part -- kneejerk responses to actions [and master
cards] are the hallmark of the n00b, and i try to very carefully
consider the need for a sudden or a block each and every time the
situation arises, looking for the more enlightened response, as
opposed to, "that's bad...!!! i block..."
as you know, and many of the readers of the list know as well, i am an
huge fan of the intercept wall deck, so i can usually block almost
anything: magic of the smith, night moves, pishaah...!!! but just
because a thing *can* be blocked does not necessarily mean a thing
must, nor should be blocked...
mirroring the logic, i suppose, i can see your point on the actions
side of it: just because a thing can be done, it dose not necessarily
follow that it should, nor must be done...
> > -- don't play cards that give your opponents benefits nor options,
> > unless there's an important reason for giving them to them...
> > examples: the admonitions, powerbase: montreal, fragment of the book
> > of nod, the rack, et cetera...
>
> What? I love that stuff. Don't play them if you can't defend them, but
> I use then extensively and they've won me far more games than they've
> cost me. Fraggie is especially nice. The effect is subtle enough that
> people don't tend to risk "the meatgrinder" to go after it.
yes, you *do* love that stuff...
:)
but you also play with a crapload of little minions, and usually have
about 8-12 guys lined up in your ready region, mister swainbank... so
you are proving my point: don't play it to defend it, play it to get
it back... and of course they've won you games: those cards are
usually very good cards, and you have the luxury, usually far in
excess of your opponents, to devote actions to retrieving them...
> > -- don't expect help from your "cross-table buddies..." there are no
> > cross-table buddies...!!! you have 4 opponents, and don't forget
> > it... if you get help, it's not help: it's a self-serving action
> > taken by one of your opponent to thwart another of your opponents...
> > so don't feel compelled to abase yourself to someone who offers you
> > "help..." if it didn't advance their agenda, they wouldn't even be
> > considering it...
> Good advice. And the corrolary is don't waste your time and resources
> helping out your "cross-table buddy". He's only worth helping to the
> limited extent propping him up will help you win.
up until recently, i'd have agreed with you on this, but a little
lesson i've picked up off of peal lately is just how annoying it can
be to someone whom you're trtying to thwart [often, but not always,
your prey] when you rescue *their* prey's vampires from torpor, or
burn *their* army of rats, or some such thing... there really seems
to be something to that, though i can't deliver a full dissertation on
it just yet... i still have much to learn...
also, something i should have added to my list of dont's:
-- don't always feel the need to do stuff, just because your minion
phase has rolled around... i've been doing a little experimentation,
as of late, on the effect of taking a turn to do pretty much nothing,
maybe hunting, even though i'm not stuck in defensive mode... it
seems to have a serious impact on the rhythm of the game, kind of
throws things off, disturbs the vibe, so to speak... so, if you can't
think of a full-blown plan on a given turn, especially if the game is
moving right along, but perhaps not in a way you're 100% comfortable
with, skipping a beat and throwing off the other drummers might be the
way to go...
catch you all at the nerq...!!!
noodleboy
> Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
> Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
> deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
> else knows this.
>
> My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
> blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
> untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>
> It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
> Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
> predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
>
> Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
>
> My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
> Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
Take the pool.
Hoping those 3 tremere don't have the goods to take you out is folly.
With Oliver's special alone [presuming he has a theft in hand] they
can bleed you for 4. One Conditioning and you die.
IMHO, it's best to get yourself to 17 pool, play the communal haven,
discard and see what those two new cards bring.
noodleboy
Chris Arthur
> Why would your prey ever bleed with this card in play? It's like saying
> "Hey, take one of my vampires, please."
>
> It doesn't really matter what you _say_. When it comes down to it
> you'll burn the Form when it's best for you, and most of the time that's
> going to be as soon as you can possibly take one of your prey's vamps.
>
That's where being trustworthy comes in handy. FoC is much easier to
use if your prey trusts you not to take his vamp.
Chris.
Chris Arthur
> Anyone care to make their own additions?
>
Don't put Defender of the Haven and Soul of the Earth into a deck
built around Virstania and non-slave Gargoyles.
It'd be cool if there was a card that made vamps slaves.
C.
Derek Ray
chr...@comcen.com.au (Chris Arthur) mumbled something about:
I play with people who are not morons.
Enough said.
Wes
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote
>
> >In my experience, Form of Corrption usually *pops* with zero counters
on
> >it. So not bleeding isn't always a defense against losing vampires to
> >Form of Corruption. Not having empty vampires is far more useful to
the
> >FoC victim, and that's difficult to manage with a Setite predator.
>
> I've always felt that if I can force my predator to take an EMPTY
minion
> of mine, then I've managed some success.
Depends. Let me mention first that I see Form of Corruption as being
similar in scope to Graverobbing. Graverobbing is good even at inferior
because you are denying your opponent thier vampire. Same thing with
FoC. Most of the time the vampire I steal with FoC will be empty and not
have any disciplines that are useful to me. But the denial is good in
and of itself. And the quicker you *pop* the FoC, the less
destablilzation there will be. I aim to have FoC on the table for less
than three turns if possible. More than that and the destabilization
will affect me adversely moreso than my prey.
> Once the card is in play, I
> can do nothing about it -- but I can certainly not play directly into
my
> predator's plans by bleeding.
Sure, but this is situational. Today my prey was playing Malkavian S&B,
so for him not bleeding was not a great option. And FoC was the perfect
foil because it slowed down a deck archetype that is powerful to begin
with. I did end up stealing Gilbert Duane with three blood and a Blood
Doll.
Against other types of decks, this would not have worked as well.
(I also Tempted Ohanna and then used her immediately to diablerize
another Malkavian, then chose to burn Ohanna in the Blood Hunt... it was
funny! :)
In this sense then, FoC is similar to Kiss of Ra. Against a deck not
using Fortitude, you're going to wish you had lots. Against a deck that
has *all* Fortitude, you're going to wish you had none. Such is the
nature of V:tES deck design.
> If I happen to be an all-vote or all-Rush
> deck then I'm ahead of the game, of course.
Also situational. If I was your [SER] predator in this situation, I
would not necessarily play the FoC. I may just discard it instead...
> All these examples assume
> that some form of bleed is the prey's forward offense.
Most do, I agree.
Even if it's not the *focus* however, this does not make it terrible.
Most decks will bleed at some point in the game. And the ones that bleed
infrequently are actually more likely to get the Edge multiple times
during a game, in my experience.
> Again, this doesn't remove the need for heavy stealth in your deck.
You
> MUST have a way to handle blockers -- what happens when your prey
leaves
> all his vampires untapped?
Many of my Setite decks feature no reactions whatsoever...
As for your question, it depends on the non-FoC element of the deck. A
prey that sits still and does nothing is not always a bad thing. To go
back to my Nadima example, using Smiling Jack takes care of this nicely.
If my prey just sits there, then it becomes a waiting game which I will
win because I am prepared for that waiting game.
I'm not so much disagreeing with you about the stealth. It can help in
most decks, sure. But it's usually there because it's Setites playing
the FoC and Setites happen to have stealth.
> He won't have any empty vampires, he won't
> inherently be getting his vampires empty, then what?
Well, presumably my deck has ways to *make* their vampires empty.
Serpentis and/or Setites have options available for this.
I contend that "forced-anemia" decks are much more powerful than people
think. Blood attrition is a strategy I still do not see a lot of in
V:tES, except for the odd Cryptic Mission deck.
And also, there are other ways to make sure your prey gains the Edge. I
don't particularly like the Regaining the Upper Hand method, but it is
an option.
> > The object is to oust your prey, and that becomes a much easier
> > task when they aren't ousting theirs :)
>
> I absolutely cannot agree. It is very, very difficult to oust a prey
> who will take no actions and spend no pool, unless you have LOTS of
> stealth or they have absolutely no intercept.
Again, this is situational. If I play FoC, I have to plan for what to do
in case my prey just sits there.
But I do think that a slowed prey is a good thing in many situations.
Basically, for the same reasons that Major Boon is useful... keeping
your grandprey in the game until you can oust them yourself. How often
do you win games when your prey ousts their prey? Their gain of 6 pool
alone is a daunting setback.
It is true that if your prey is slow, that in turn strengthens their
prey, which will probably have painful consequences when you finally get
behind your grandprey. But as mentioned, I am usually prepared for this.
My eye is always on the win; while I may focus on my prey, that does not
mean I want my grand-prey to get a free ride.
Hmm... Form of Corruption really does make a game complicated, doesn't
it. I like complicated games :)
> Even a simple untapped Sport Bike will cause you to burn stealth like
> mad. Let's assume that your prey has three 5-cap minions and 15 pool,
> and one of those minions has a Sport Bike. You put Form of Corruption
> in play -- he stays untapped forever.
And takes pool loss from Anarch Revolts, Antedilluvean, etc.
And his minions take blood loss from Society of Leopold, Consignment of
Duat, combat, etc.
This is not insurmountable. You just have to have the right rock for his
scissors. In other words, you have to have a plan.
> If you're trying to bleed, he blocks with a 0-intercept minion, then
the
> 1-intercept minion, forcing you to use two stealth cards OR a LiC just
> to get the bleed through. He can do this for every bleed, every
time --
> if you ever run out of stealth, you'll be in trouble.
Assuming of course that you are using stealth. Their intercept becomes
tits-on-a-bull if we're *not* using stealth.
> Given that the
> typical defense to stealth/bleed is "no block", a lot of decks have
> taken to going lighter and lighter on stealth these days. If he
happens
> to be able to generate additional intercept, that's even more
annoying.
Agreed.
> If you're trying to vote him down, the 1-intercept minion still tries
to
> block everything you do, forcing you to have one stealth card in hand
> per vote. Assuming the votes are FSR, he can do this almost
forever --
> you empty out the guy with the Sport Bike, who hunts (you block it),
and
> then the next guy over takes the Sport Bike off the empty minion.
FSR is still pretty easy to get through. Votes' inherent stealth plus
Forgotten Labyrinth and/or Elder Impersonation is enough to get past
most interecept, if it should become necessary.
> But putting a FoC in play is, in my opinion, a valid reason to
> oust backwards, if ANY part of my deck's offense depends on bleed.
> There is no other way to protect yourself from the card, and
attempting
> to "work around" it is just playing directly into the Setite player's
> hands.
Well, we *are* manipulative bastards after all :)
There are plenty of deck archetypes that could easily make a mess of a
Setite predator. And those decks are more often than not the ones that
would not be hurt badly by a FoC in play. But there's an easy way to get
around this... discard the FoC instead of playing it. Just as you'd
discard a Kiss of Ra if you were bleeding a Blood Brothers deck.
Honestly though Derek, I've had more luck with PRO/SER and Form of
Corruption than I have had with OBF/PRE/SER... I think I've probably
built more variations of PRO/SER than anyone on the planet at this point
heheh. I would still play FoC with some Setite decks, but I'd play it a
lot differently.
(The deck example above vs the Malkavian was a POT/PRE/SER deck by the
way)
> This is why I kill backwards when I see the card. Putting it in play
> guarantees you'll get at least an empty vampire, if you can survive
that
> long. I'm not interested in having my empty vampires taken. =)
My primary targets are usually empty titled vampires or weenies with a
Blood Doll on them. Both will give me at least *something* useful.
Whether they are empty or not is not that much of a problem.
Cheers,
WES
Wes
"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote
> > -- don't break deals... even to win tournaments... it makes your a
> > big jerk... "bust a deal, face the wheel..."
>
> Well, I've never concerned myself with whether others thought I was a
> "big jerk" or not, so I happily break deals whenever I feel the need
> to do so.
>
> Isn't that right, Wes? :-)
Yeah... like I don't already have a reputation for breaking deals? :)
http://www.mnsi.net/~ghost/jyhad/vol3iss8.htm
Hell, I break more deals than anybody round here. And I do it because it
*amuses me to do so* and not for some silly, transient reason like or
"winning" or "maximizing VPs". And certainly not "morality"... Ptoooie!
You know what they say, Noal:
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice and face the eternal wrath of
Sutekh the Dark Lord!"
> *plays Malkavian Prank*
> "Wes, what can you do for me in exchange for 4 pool?"
> "Uh...I don't know. Not block your next vote?"
> "Done."
> *everyone puts pool in their hand*
> "3. 3. 3." *looks at Wes* "4."
Ahem. By that time you had already given me 12 pool, Noal. So I still
more than broke even... it was a calculated risk. Besides, I was going
to backstab you right after that anyway heheh... you just accelerated
that process :)
Ah well... the thing I like about playing with you Noal is that once we
remove the knives from our respective backs we can still laugh about it
afterwards!
Cheers,
WES
P.S. Someone should design a CCG where the whole point is to backstab
and betray each other. I'd play that.
David Cherryholmes
> Form of Corruption is a difficult card to use effectively. You must be
> playing a heavy-stealth, heavy-combat-defense deck, in my opinion,
> because if your prey is a bleed deck, they will simply take no offensive
> actions until you are ousted, and if possible Rush you backwards until
> you're gone. Since it is entirely possible your prey will wall up like
> this, you need to be prepared to blow your offense past him ANYWAY, and
> you need to be ready to either lose some minions or beat down a wall.
Serpentis is on my list of disciplines that are perfectly ok at inferior,
and also one of the best to use as a bit of splash in an otherwise
non-Serpentis deck. One of the best uses I've found for this card is to
chuck it out there in order to slow your prey down to Assamite Speed. If
you snag a minion from it, so much the better.
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
David Cherryholmes
> It doesn't really matter what you _say_. When it comes down to it
> you'll burn the Form when it's best for you, and most of the time that's
> going to be as soon as you can possibly take one of your prey's vamps.
True in a perfectly rational world. This neglects, though, the tendency
of some players to "clever" themselves to death. More common than you'd
think.....
David Cherryholmes
> Correct. But putting a FoC in play is, in my opinion, a valid reason to
> oust backwards, if ANY part of my deck's offense depends on bleed.
> There is no other way to protect yourself from the card, and attempting
> to "work around" it is just playing directly into the Setite player's
> hands.
Hey... it's a "chat with Derek" morning!
IMO, you *possibly* oust backwards. Depends on your deck. You of course
pay the price of not taking those actions against your prey, and I think I
see a lot of games lost in this manner... getting obsessive about not
losing a particular resource and working hard to get it back, not lose it,
or punish the person who removed it from you. Sometimes it's better to
just kiss that one goodbye and keep your eye on the ball. Same with pool
damage... there's a certain threshold below which you just ignore it and
keep hammering your prey. But again, the devil will be in the details.
David Cherryholmes
> That's where being trustworthy comes in handy. FoC is much easier to
> use if your prey trusts you not to take his vamp.
Honest question: how many games have you lost building up this rep of
trustworthiness? Are you net up or down?
Timlagor
> > I'd have to
> > Conceal out a .44, Dodge, Blur, and blow up the gun on my 3rd strike
> > with Dragon's Breath Rounds -- that's five cards and two more pool
> > spent, leaving me at only 5!
>
> With the cathedral, it's only one pool (easily recoverd from the blood doll)
> and you may also state that you will move nearly all the blood from Venere
> to sabrina so tremere targetted b y the attack will not gain blood during
> the fight.
>
>
> > The players in this situation would say "Show me", if I said that. =)
Your prey doesn't need to believe that you can fulfill your part. Your
predator may be cautious if all he has is bleed cards -if not you stand
a good chance anyway.
> > represent something that you might realistically have in your hand! =)
> > (It's almost IDENTICAL to bluffing in poker, as a matter of fact.)
>
> No, i think you often have an ideal hand but can't decide whether to use it
> on your predator or prey -especially when the game is down to 3 players.
My tactics in that turn are not to use it on either. I want them to kill
each other.
I would pay the pool. I would expect not to win in that round but I
would also expect not to be ousted (probably wouldn't have tapped out
with no wakes though).
Generally I see no benefit in allowing someone to Golconda a nearly full
vampire -if I don't want the vampire, why have I brought him out?
If I live to my next turn I have a chunk of intercept and can put the
gun where I want to and keep one or two vampires up while wearing down
on my prey.
You haven't told us what's in the ashheaps which is highly relevant.
(also experienced and skilled players is not adequate -even from playing
one game to this point you would have a better idea of how they would
behave)
Timlagor
> up until recently, i'd have agreed with you on this, but a little
> lesson i've picked up off of peal lately is just how annoying it can
> be to someone whom you're trtying to thwart [often, but not always,
> your prey] when you rescue *their* prey's vampires from torpor, or
> burn *their* army of rats, or some such thing... there really seems
> to be something to that, though i can't deliver a full dissertation on
> it just yet... i still have much to learn...
I feel I MUST mention Paths at this point. Paths are GOOD CARDS. EG: I
don't think I've ever built a Ravnos deck with fewer than 3 Paradoxes.
When you play them, you know that you need them; when you see other
people play them, getting rid of them somehow doens't seem like that big
a deal. ALWAYS give serious thought to burning *anything* your predator
or prey has that can be burnt.
This goes right back to the atuto-block response: sometimes it is better
to let them (especially your prey who may not be able to come at you in
any other way) burn your path (or whatever) than block and have them
come at you again.
Similarly with Rack, PB:M etc. Be prepared to devote yourself to
stealing these things. I find that just being more determined to have
them than the next Meth is often enough -if I stop bleeding to go after
the Rack every turn how long are you going to keep fighting me for it?
Clearly if two players do squabble over the Rack (no benefit whatsoever
if it moves every turn) then they both lose from it; just get them to
blink first :D
> -- don't always feel the need to do stuff, just because your minion
> phase has rolled around... i've been doing a little experimentation,
> as of late, on the effect of taking a turn to do pretty much nothing,
> maybe hunting, even though i'm not stuck in defensive mode... it
> seems to have a serious impact on the rhythm of the game, kind of
> throws things off, disturbs the vibe, so to speak... so, if you can't
> think of a full-blown plan on a given turn, especially if the game is
> moving right along, but perhaps not in a way you're 100% comfortable
> with, skipping a beat and throwing off the other drummers might be the
> way to go...
Bear in mind that if there is little/nothing to be gained by staying
untapped, a hunt is rarely a mistake (beware blockers).
With luck doing nothing will encourage your prey -> slowing your grand-
prey -> encourage your grand-pred -> slow your pred: and all you did was
hunt :)
[obviuosly this isn't at all reliable but it's nice if you can get it to
happen :]
Emmit Svenson
> And also, there are other ways to make sure your prey gains the Edge. I
> don't particularly like the Regaining the Upper Hand method, but it is
> an option.
*Shudder* No, it isn't.
Sabbat Threat and Deploy the Hand, however, sound pretty interesting.
Incidentally, one of the very few uses for Baleful Doll I've found is
to use it with Form of Corruption to snatch an empty vamp. Most other
effects give a vamp a chance to hunt before it is stolen, but the Doll
is a good one-two punch. Pity it's so difficult to use.
> FSR is still pretty easy to get through. Votes' inherent stealth plus
> Forgotten Labyrinth and/or Elder Impersonation is enough to get past
> most interecept, if it should become necessary.
Not to mention the Opium Den, and other goodies like Khay'tall's
special. Stealth just isn't the Setite's problem, although cycling
stealth can be.
Noal McDonald
> "Noal McDonald" wrote:
> > *plays Malkavian Prank*
> > "Wes, what can you do for me in exchange for 4 pool?"
> > "Uh...I don't know. Not block your next vote?"
> > "Done."
> > *everyone puts pool in their hand*
> > "3. 3. 3." *looks at Wes* "4."
>
> Ahem. By that time you had already given me 12 pool, Noal. So I still
> more than broke even... it was a calculated risk. Besides, I was going
> to backstab you right after that anyway heheh... you just accelerated
> that process :)
No, I had given you 8 pool until that point. Over all, you made 4 pool
off of deals with Pranks. Which, I did get value from, so it's all
good. But, yeah, I had conceded the point made by your predator that I
had given you way too much pool, but I couldn't let him know I agreed
until I pulled that stunt or you wouldn't have bit.
> Ah well... the thing I like about playing with you Noal is that once we
> remove the knives from our respective backs we can still laugh about it
> afterwards!
Sure. It's just a game. All in good fun.
> P.S. Someone should design a CCG where the whole point is to backstab
> and betray each other. I'd play that.
While not a CCG, Diplomacy is exactly that.
Regards,
Noal
Timlagor
> My primary targets are usually empty titled vampires or weenies with a
> Blood Doll on them. Both will give me at least *something* useful.
> Whether they are empty or not is not that much of a problem.
Are you not aware that you cannot use the Blood Doll? (it still being
controlled by the player who played it)
Timlagor
> > P.S. Someone should design a CCG where the whole point is to backstab
> > and betray each other. I'd play that.
>
> While not a CCG, Diplomacy is exactly that.
I like Junta too.
Matthew T. Morgan
He can use it.
Blood Doll
Master.
Put this card on a vampire you control. During his or her master phase,
this vampire's controller may move 1 blood from this vampire to his or her
pool or from his or her pool to this vampire.
If Wes is the controller of the vampire, he can use the Blood Doll, even
though it's still controlled by the Methuselah who played it. The fact
that control is retained only matters if the controller is ousted (the
Blood Doll burns, but the minion it is on remains) or for Succubus Club
trades or other weird circumstances.
Matt Morgan
The Lasombra
Card text is clear that you are wrong on this TimLagor.
"During his or her master phase, this vampire's controller may move 1
blood from this vampire to his or her pool or from his or her pool to
this vampire."
Blood Doll does not cease to function if control of the vampire
changes.
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Cardlist.html
and
LSJ 10-09-2002
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DA45842.1EF532A9%40white-wolf.com
LSJ 06-25-2001
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B37153A.138FBFA%40white-wolf.com
LSJ 12-20-2000
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3A41157B.79ADFEB3%40white-wolf.com
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Cameron
> and betray each other. I'd play that.
Illuminati
cameron
Chris Arthur
> >That's where being trustworthy comes in handy. FoC is much easier to
> >use if your prey trusts you not to take his vamp.
>
> I play with people who are not morons.
>
You seem to be implying that to trust someone to keep a deal is
moronic. That may be true where you play but you're not making an
allowance for the type of environment where people trust each other
for good reason.
Chris.
Chris Arthur
> > That's where being trustworthy comes in handy. FoC is much easier to
> > use if your prey trusts you not to take his vamp.
>
> Honest question: how many games have you lost building up this rep of
> trustworthiness? Are you net up or down?
>
I haven't kept an exact count but i'd say i've probably lost quite a
few vps by keeping deals that i could otherwise have broken. i've only
lost a handful through being backstabbed.
i've gained quite a few by being a preferential deal partner and
through people keeping their deals with me because they know i'll keep
them with them.
All up i'd definitely say i'm ahead because no one ever turns me down
for a deal for trust reasons and people have started keeping deals
with me because they're seeing the benefits of being trustworthy. i'm
not leagues ahead but in this game every little bit counts. :)
Chris.
Wes
"Emmit Svenson" <emmits...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > don't particularly like the Regaining the Upper Hand method, but it
is
> > an option.
>
> *Shudder* No, it isn't.
Didn't say it was a *good* option :)
> Sabbat Threat and Deploy the Hand, however, sound pretty interesting.
Yeah, that sounds pretty cool actually. I like setting up
damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situations like that.
> Incidentally, one of the very few uses for Baleful Doll I've found is
> to use it with Form of Corruption to snatch an empty vamp. Most other
> effects give a vamp a chance to hunt before it is stolen, but the Doll
> is a good one-two punch. Pity it's so difficult to use.
Also a very good idea! And there is at least some synergy between SER
and NEC, albeit not much. Since we're talking about Form of Corruption,
which targets only our prey, the inferior of Baleful Doll is all we
really need.
> > FSR is still pretty easy to get through. Votes' inherent stealth
plus
> > Forgotten Labyrinth and/or Elder Impersonation is enough to get past
> > most interecept, if it should become necessary.
>
> Not to mention the Opium Den, and other goodies like Khay'tall's
> special. Stealth just isn't the Setite's problem, although cycling
> stealth can be.
I often seem to run low on stealth. In fact, I've never been able to
figure our what the right amount of stealth is for any deck. Depends on
environment obviously, but there must be an ideal number of cards to use
as a base module.
Cheers,
WES
Wes
"Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> Illuminati
I have some of those cards actually, though I don't think I've ever
played it.
I remember that the rulebook said everyone is supposed to all conspire
against any player who gets up to go to the bathroom. I thought that was
amusing.
A lot of the cards were funny too, but the game seemed way too confusing
to play.
Cheers,
WES
P.S. I have seen some people play this on CCGWorkshop, though very
rarely
Azel
great fun. games of bastardry win a deserving spot in my soul - where else
can you act out your cruel, conniving nature and still at the end of the day
say you've done nothing wrong. ;)
by the way, i like making, breaking, and betrayed by deals. it's all part of
the fun. in the end no one was seriously hurt. ...which brings up why i'm
not interested in fostering a pro-v:tes league, a la m:tg. we really don't
need to foster the "morals" of politicians anymore in life. best to leave
these behaviors in something safe and benign like a CCG.
Timlagor
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:20:49 -0000, Timlagor
> <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Wes expounded:
> >> My primary targets are usually empty titled vampires or weenies with a
> >> Blood Doll on them. Both will give me at least *something* useful.
> >> Whether they are empty or not is not that much of a problem.
>
> >Are you not aware that you cannot use the Blood Doll? (it still being
> >controlled by the player who played it)
>
> Card text is clear that you are wrong on this TimLagor.
>
> "During his or her master phase, this vampire's controller may move 1
> blood from this vampire to his or her pool or from his or her pool to
> this vampire."
>
> Blood Doll does not cease to function if control of the vampire
> changes.
>
Ho hum.
Good thing I posted then. Thanks :)
Curevei
>
>-- This is the second round of a 3-round, 12-player tournament.
3 prelim, 3 total?
>-- You got 2VP in the first round, but no Table Win.
If 3 prelims, probably thinking in terms of getting at least one TW. I can't
remember what the situation was with crosstable players, if any. Adds a
question of whether ousting prey sooner rather than later is important.
Well, whatever, the harder it seems to make the finals, the more chances seem
to be worth taking and the more energy worth putting into game winning
dealmaking.
Two more things occur to me about the situation. Why did your predator play
Golconda? There are two incredibly different results depending upon what you
do. Is it because your predator hopes you do something or because your
predator thinks you will do something? That can be a messy puzzle to work out.
A possible reason to have played it was to bring you under control whether it
helped oust you or not - either you lose the minion and reduce your ousting
power when your prey is virtually dead or you go low enough that you die this
turn. The other thing is that you could simply try to deal with your predator,
though it's not clear what you could offer that makes any sense for both of
you.
Then, there's how much you think you can bluff someone. Quickly tossing in the
pool for the Golconda might be the right move (if you really want to keep the
vampire). If you plan on blowing it up regardless, might want to play with a
couple of pool for a while to make people think you would consider keeping it.
I go back to the situation possibly being highly dependent upon my sense of
urgency at the time, which involves all sorts of factors not presented and,
likely, not presentable. For instance, there's a possibility that I wouldn't
want to oust my prey just yet. Maybe that's the deal, except that the deal
would have needed to be made prior to the play of Golconda to affect the
current decision - I offer to lighten up on my prey which makes my predator
happy to a degree and all is peace and joy.
lehrbuch
news:<5a63bace.0402...@posting.google.com>...
[Derek Ray]
> > I play with people who are not morons.
> >
> a deal is moronic.
No, I think that he's saying to trust someone to keep a moronic deal
is moronic.
Only an idiot would not use the FoC to their best advantage. Only a
moron would trust someone to keep such an idiotic deal.
[Chris]
> That may be true where you play but you're not
> making an allowance for the type of environment
> where people trust each other for good reason.
So you're proposing a play environment where people keep deals, that
are not in their best interest, because it will be ensure their
honest-reputation for subsequent games? Then you are playing a
different game. A game where you are breaking one of the cardinal
rules of jyhad, i.e. "play to win (this game)".
We do occassionaly have people who play like this in our playgroup.
It is nice if you manage to be the person who makes a deal with them -
that they then keep, despite it later not being in their interest.
However, it is totally frustrating when they are playing idiotically,
because of some ill-advised deal they made previously with another
player. It's worse than people "role-playing Malks". In fact,
instead of cultivating a rep. for "honesty and integrity", they
develop a reputation for "being an easily manipulated idiot who
destabilises the table". The result being that they tend to *not* get
invited very often to play.
* lehrbuch
Derek Ray
<Pine.GSO.4.21.040202...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu>,
David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> mumbled something
about:
>On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, Derek Ray wrote:
>
>> Correct. But putting a FoC in play is, in my opinion, a valid reason to
>> oust backwards, if ANY part of my deck's offense depends on bleed.
>> There is no other way to protect yourself from the card, and attempting
>> to "work around" it is just playing directly into the Setite player's
>> hands.
>
>Hey... it's a "chat with Derek" morning!
>
>IMO, you *possibly* oust backwards. Depends on your deck. You of course
Of course. Despite my phrasing, nothing is going to be 100%; as you
point out, the devil is in the details.
If I'm playing the 2-caps with Hungry Coyote deck, I'm not gonna knock
myself out keeping my predator from taking a 2-cap. In fact, I'm going
to encourage him to take one ASAP and get the thing off the table; and
in the meantime try not to make one of my 2-caps TOO valuable in some
way (fetching the Ivory Bow on one, etc).
Derek Ray
Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> mumbled something about:
>> > The players in this situation would say "Show me", if I said that. =)
>
>Your prey doesn't need to believe that you can fulfill your part. Your
>predator may be cautious if all he has is bleed cards -if not you stand
>a good chance anyway.
Again, the players I'm playing with are experienced AND skilled.
They know the probability of my having a combo like that in hand, plus
the Wake necessary to block, is almost 0%. If you've ever pulled
yourself up short because someone made that type of threat to you, god,
please let me be your prey sometime.
It's possible to bluff good players (more possible than bluffing
inferior players, in fact), but you HAVE to represent something that you
might actually have in hand. =)
>I would pay the pool. I would expect not to win in that round but I
>would also expect not to be ousted (probably wouldn't have tapped out
>with no wakes though).
You are not allowed to change the situation with "probablies". You must
evaluate it given the parameters as shown.
>You haven't told us what's in the ashheaps which is highly relevant.
My predator has a few Governs, one Conditioning, one Bonding, some
Theft, and one 2nd Tradition in his ash heap.
I honestly don't recall what was in my prey's ash heap other than a Rock
Cat and a War Ghoul, both of which I blocked as they were recruited (War
Ghoul + Trap > .44, and Rock Cat ain't pleasant either.) I do remember
that "nothing i need to worry about" is what I thought at the time.
>(also experienced and skilled players is not adequate -even from playing
>one game to this point you would have a better idea of how they would
>behave)
I did not sit at the same table with either of these players in the
first round.
Chris Arthur
> [Chris]
> > That may be true where you play but you're not
> > making an allowance for the type of environment
> > where people trust each other for good reason.
>
> So you're proposing a play environment where people keep deals, that
> are not in their best interest, because it will be ensure their
> honest-reputation for subsequent games? Then you are playing a
> different game. A game where you are breaking one of the cardinal
> rules of jyhad, i.e. "play to win (this game)".
That's not true at all. You are allowed to keep deals even if breaking
them would be to your immediate advantage.
> It is nice if you manage to be the person who makes a deal with them -
> that they then keep, despite it later not being in their interest.
> However, it is totally frustrating when they are playing idiotically,
> because of some ill-advised deal they made previously with another
> player.
Then that player made a mistake. Mistakes by other players are often
frustrating. That does not invalidate the idea of keeping deals to
remain trustworthy.
It's worse than people "role-playing Malks". In fact,
> instead of cultivating a rep. for "honesty and integrity", they
> develop a reputation for "being an easily manipulated idiot who
> destabilises the table". The result being that they tend to *not* get
> invited very often to play.
The problem is that they get manipulated rather than the fact that
they keep the deal. Them breaking deals wouldn't fix the problem.
Chris.
Timlagor
> In message <MPG.1a872c4c4...@news.freeserve.com>,
> Timlagor <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> mumbled something about:
>
> >> > The players in this situation would say "Show me", if I said that. =)
> >
> >Your prey doesn't need to believe that you can fulfill your part. Your
> >predator may be cautious if all he has is bleed cards -if not you stand
> >a good chance anyway.
>
> Again, the players I'm playing with are experienced AND skilled.
>
> They know the probability of my having a combo like that in hand, plus
> the Wake necessary to block, is almost 0%. If you've ever pulled
> yourself up short because someone made that type of threat to you, god,
> please let me be your prey sometime.
>
> It's possible to bluff good players (more possible than bluffing
> inferior players, in fact), but you HAVE to represent something that you
> might actually have in hand. =)
>
> >I would pay the pool. I would expect not to win in that round but I
> >would also expect not to be ousted (probably wouldn't have tapped out
> >with no wakes though).
>
> You are not allowed to change the situation with "probablies". You must
> evaluate it given the parameters as shown.
I did. On the information available I would burn the 2 pool because:
a) I brought these vampires out so I must have had a reason
b) I think I stand a good chance of surviving this round.
c) They are playing it which implies they don't like Venere.
d) I'm gungho and don't believe in keeping vast amounts of pool.
However there is information that might cause me to do otherwise (see
below).
> >You haven't told us what's in the ashheaps which is highly relevant.
>
> My predator has a few Governs, one Conditioning, one Bonding, some
> Theft, and one 2nd Tradition in his ash heap.
If the Governs noticeably outnumber the thefts then I would probably
take the pool on the grounds that there is a good chance of him having
enough bleed (unless I know they have been played over numerous turns
and they haven't had much fighting lately so are likely to have a
handful of combat). OTOH the fact that I'm having Golconda played on me
would seem to imply that they didn't think they had the cards to oust me
without it (they can't reasonably assume that i will not take the pool -
they are decent players remember- so it's quite a risk if they think
they can oust me without it).
> >(also experienced and skilled players is not adequate -even from playing
> >one game to this point you would have a better idea of how they would
> >behave)
>
> I did not sit at the same table with either of these players in the
> first round.
Read the excert above again please. I'm not talking about previous
games.
Derek Ray
cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) mumbled something about:
>>-- This is the second round of a 3-round, 12-player tournament.
>
>3 prelim, 3 total?
3 rounds + a final.
>>-- You got 2VP in the first round, but no Table Win.
>
>If 3 prelims, probably thinking in terms of getting at least one TW. I can't
>remember what the situation was with crosstable players, if any. Adds a
>question of whether ousting prey sooner rather than later is important.
Grandprey is a stealth/bleed deck who is in reasonably good shape.
Grandpredator has Dominate, but I can't remember much else at this
point, other than "was doing OK with an S/B deck as predator."
>Well, whatever, the harder it seems to make the finals, the more chances seem
>to be worth taking and the more energy worth putting into game winning
>dealmaking.
Bit late for that, as the Golconda is on the table.
>Two more things occur to me about the situation. Why did your predator play
>Golconda? There are two incredibly different results depending upon what you
>do. Is it because your predator hopes you do something or because your
>predator thinks you will do something? That can be a messy puzzle to work out.
Yes. A lot of your decision is based on "why do you think your predator
played Golconda?" If you cannot answer this question, you are just
guessing when you make your decision.
>Then, there's how much you think you can bluff someone. Quickly tossing in the
>pool for the Golconda might be the right move (if you really want to keep the
>vampire). If you plan on blowing it up regardless, might want to play with a
>couple of pool for a while to make people think you would consider keeping it.
It's worth noting that most people have only a basic grasp of deception,
and as such hit on the obvious "seem strong when i'm weak, seem weak
when i'm strong" ploy.
>I go back to the situation possibly being highly dependent upon my sense of
>urgency at the time, which involves all sorts of factors not presented and,
>likely, not presentable. For instance, there's a possibility that I wouldn't
Assume that everyone is trying to win.
>want to oust my prey just yet. Maybe that's the deal, except that the deal
>would have needed to be made prior to the play of Golconda to affect the
>current decision - I offer to lighten up on my prey which makes my predator
>happy to a degree and all is peace and joy.
Why would your predator EVER take this deal?
Imagine this scenario: My predator takes the deal, and I play Minion
Tap and pull all-but-1 off of Venere. I leave all my minions untapped,
honoring the deal. My predator's Golconda becomes suddenly
near-worthless. As a predator, you cannot be making silly deals with
your prey if you hope to win. Any deal that involves him not playing
Golconda on me for some reason is silly. =)
Then again, why would I as prey ever MAKE this deal? It just means
Golconda will hang out in his hand until it can REALLY bust my ass, and
since he can't show the Golconda to me, I have to deal with the
possibility that he's lying -- no, if he has the Golconda I have to make
him show it, so I can't make deals from fear.
skippy
>
> I'll give a recent example from my own tournament play here, and ask
> "What would you do?" in this situation... hopefully enough people are
> reading this portion to get some useful opinions. (LSJ is NOT eligible
> to respond.)
>
> I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
>
> Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
>
> Carter has a Blood Doll on him -- nobody else does. My hand is Communal
> Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
> Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
> deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
> else knows this.
>
> My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
> blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
> untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>
> It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
> Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
> predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
>
> Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
>
> My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
> Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
>
Pay the two pool, tap out bleeding. Start with Carter if you get blocked,
leave the rest untapped and wall up. If you don't get blocked you oust.
Oscar Garza
Derek Ray
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>I am at 9 pool. I have four tapped minions with the following blood:
>
>Venere Carboni (7), Mercy (3), Sabrina (3) (with .44), Carter (1).
>
>Carter has a Blood Doll on him -- nobody else does. My hand is Communal
>Haven: Cathedral, .44 Magnum, Banshee Ironwail, Quicken Sight, Spirit's
>Touch, Pursuit, Blur. There are no bleed actions or modifiers in my
>deck; my offense consists entirely of 3x Palla Grande, although nobody
>else knows this.
What this means to me:
I have no effective pool gain at the moment. I had intended to use
Carter to hunt forever in this game, but with Lucas Halton behind me, I
can't even slap a gun on him and keep him alive, and relying on Dodge is
not going to be a good way to go. He is worth more to me as a bleeder
(esp. with Palla Grande) than as a dead or burned attempted hunt.
I can get a small amount of pool gain going by moving blood to Carter
with the Communal Haven, but it will take 2 turns before that ever
begins to show a profit, and it costs me 1 just to get moving in the
first place.
>My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
>blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
>untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
My prey is your favourite Rulesmonger and mine, L. Scott Johnson.
Aside from that, if I pay the 2 pool and bleed successfully with all my
minions this turn, I will gain 6 pool and a VP. I am not going to be
able to topdeck a Palla Grande, nor will I be able to play any bleed
mods. I need all 4 of my minions to oust.
>It is my predator's Master phase. My predator has Lucas Halton,
>Anastazdi Zagreb, and Oliver Thrace, all about half-full. I know my
>predator's deck contains plenty of 2nd Tradition and Theft of Vitae.
My predator is the equally-famous Robyn Tatu, fresh off a tournament win
with a Toreador deck against some of the nastier opposition this side of
the pond.
Plenty of other people have shown themselves capable of underestimating
my predator; I play with her on a weekly basis, and know better.
>Both my predator and prey are skilled, experienced players.
...Wouldn't you agree? ;)
>My predator plays Golconda on Venere Carboni as his Master action.
>
>Do you take the 8 pool, or do you pay 2 to keep Venere?
I took the 8 pool.
This is the thought process involved:
When my prey made the decision to tap out in front of me with 4 pool, I
had 4 vampires and no prospect of losing any of them in the near future.
My prey is not a fool; it seems highly likely that he has at least one
Wake, although I can make a safe assumption that he will only have one.
My predator also is not a fool. There are only two reasons to play
Golconda at this time: the first is to bring me within ousting
distance, and the second is to take away one of my minions so that I
can't oust my prey without some form of bleed mod or Palla Grande.
Unfortunately, either one is equally likely, and the timing is perfect
to try for a round-the-corner two-ousts-in-two-turns trick.
The pool totals happen to be just perfectly set up so that Oliver
Thrace's special is a critical factor. To oust me, my predator ONLY
needs a Theft of Vitae and a Conditioning in hand, no more; she does not
need two Dominate cards. This makes it very likely that she has the
goods in hand to oust me RIGHT NOW. If she has a 2nd Tradition in hand
as well, she will surely try it.
I did not get a Game Win last round, although I did get two VP. If I
send myself out early this round, I force myself into needing a Game Win
in the third round to have any hope for the final. If I take my time, I
could still get a Game Win in this round, or at least pick up a VP and
make it a little bit easier on myself in the future. While I'm not in a
desperate situation, I cannot afford to be taking careless risks.
Some of you have suggested attempting to bluff with threats, etc. In
this situation, a person with the stuff in hand to oust is just LOOKING
for an excuse to go for it. They WANT to oust you. They WANT to 'know'
that you can't stop them. By speaking up AT ALL, you poke at their ego,
and they are more likely to make an attempt than before you spoke!
The only appropriate bluff here is to quietly pay your 2 pool and
poker-face it; this forces your predator to make the decision based on
the fact that you chose to pay, not on the fact that you threatened
them. (In addition, a gun on an inferior-Celerity minion isn't much of
a threat. As stated in another post, you need to be representing
something that you might actually HAVE.)
So now let's look at the possible outcomes, given what we have assumed
about our predator's and prey's hands. (Yes, I really did think about
this during the game; it took me about 3 minutes to make this decision)
1) We pay the 2 pool and our predator ousts us. 0 VP.
2) We pay the 2 pool and our predator either is scared of us and lays
off, or doesn't have the goods in hand to get the job done. Either way,
we end up with around 1-4 pool at the start of our turn, having cycled
no cards.
Unless we're at 1 pool, we can play the Communal Haven and cycle one
card before we start our minion phase, and we can use it immediately to
move blood to Carter and pay for itself, so we don't actually go DOWN
pool. We have piss-poor odds of drawing into a Forced Awakening, so we
must assume that we will start our minion phase with no untaps in hand.
We tap out attempting to oust our prey, he Wakes and blocks the last
bleed, and we don't cycle into any untap because we can't really move
any cards. Our predator gets 2VP on her next turn... 0 VP for me.
3) Same as #2, except instead of tapping out...
We believe that our prey has a single Wake in hand, which means that we
cannot oust him this turn. Therefore, we must only use two minions to
bleed with, and leave the rest untapped to defend. Our prey won't use
his Wake until his last pool, so we won't get into combat and will only
cycle our discard this turn -- this doesn't get us much closer to
drawing into a Wake of some sort.
Our prey will surely leave two minions untapped this turn, and Rudolfo
will hunt. We cannot afford to block Rudolfo's hunt, meaning that we
will face the same situation next turn -- there will be 2 blockers and
Rudolfo can Wake, and I only have 4 minions and must get 2 bleeds
through. Except that I now have 3 less pool and a predator who _knows_
I'm on the ropes. Terrible! While I can use the Pursuit and Blur in my
first combat, I'm not really moving cards very well and don't have
control of my own situation. This sucks -- I'll be lucky to get even
1VP out of this.
4) We take the 8 pool and charge forward, ignoring our predator
completely. With the token pool gain we can muster from Communal Haven,
we're not in bad shape at all. With the guns we have available, we will
surely kill all our prey's minions who dare block us, and we should get
a VP within a couple turns. We'll be at a total of 23 pool then with 3
minions, minus whatever we take from some bleeds and plus some through
the Blood Doll -- plenty of time to go fishing for a cheaper minion with
CEL, with no risk.
So of course, I take the 8 pool. The key to all this is that I don't
have to survive just one turn with no untap -- I probably have to
survive TWO *and* get a VP immediately after, and this is too much of a
risk to take.
My predator expresses EXTREME dismay and surprise that I have taken the
pool as soon as I tip Venere up and slide it all off, and chooses to
bleed me for 1 with Anastazdi and Oliver this turn "to move the Edge".
I bleed for 2, leave one untapped, and fish out a new minion from my
crypt; it's Ian Wallingford, PRE CEL, just what the doctor ordered. I
move the Communal Haven and Banshee Ironwail, and draw into a Side
Strike and Aura Reading.
My prey leaves all his minions untapped on his turn, except Rudolfo who
hunts. I block Rudolfo's hunt, play Aura Reading ... my prey turns over
his hand and shows no Wakes (!). Stuff happens cross-table between my
grandprey and grandpredator. My predator bleeds me with Oliver and
Lucas, and plays a Conditioning from Lucas. (!) My 13 pool looks mighty
nice right about now...
On my turn, I bleed three times, get blocked twice, and torporize his
last two minions. I put 2 on Ian. I oust my prey next turn, finish
influencing out Ian, and eventually end up not being able to draw a
Palla Grande in time to get through my prey before I am ousted. 1VP
total this round... 1VP more than I would've had if I hadn't recognized
that my prey wasn't going anywhere, and shown a little bit of patience.
Derek Ray
Timlagor <TimDl...@EyaThooE.co.uk> mumbled something about:
>I did. On the information available I would burn the 2 pool because:
>a) I brought these vampires out so I must have had a reason
You have Venere Carboni because he was your 4th in the uncontrolled
region, and he has AUS/CEL. There are other AUS/CEL and aus/CEL minions
in the crypt that you'd rather have had -- 2 turns to Carboni was faster
than hoping the first minion you drew had CEL, though.
>b) I think I stand a good chance of surviving this round.
You would almost surely have never gotten another turn. Besides, you
didn't just have to survive this round, you have to survive the NEXT as
well -- and that's something I notice very few people even thought of in
their responses.
>c) They are playing it which implies they don't like Venere.
Who does? He's an 8-cap with superior Presence who can be Minion Tapped
and Voter Capped repeatedly. He also has 3 votes, being a Priscus and
all.
If you take the pool, they can't oust you, but you also can't Minion
Tap, lose 3 votes, lose your Voter Cap, lose your Enchant Kindred, and
best-case scenario can't even make your deck move forward anymore. They
don't know that I have -none- of that in my deck, meaning that my 8-cap
at this point is actually just a big sack of pool without a Blood Doll,
and I'm delighted to get rid of him.
>d) I'm gungho and don't believe in keeping vast amounts of pool.
I refer you to the title of the thread... also the subthread about
"don't take risks that won't benefit you much".
>and they haven't had much fighting lately so are likely to have a
>handful of combat). OTOH the fact that I'm having Golconda played on me
>would seem to imply that they didn't think they had the cards to oust me
>without it (they can't reasonably assume that i will not take the pool -
>they are decent players remember- so it's quite a risk if they think
>they can oust me without it).
It's also possible that they are assuming that I have at least one Wake
in hand, and as such will be willing to pay the pool to keep Carboni,
believing that I can defend my stash.
All the bluffing goes in the shitter after the first bleed action goes
unblocked and unbounced, though... and I can guarantee that if I paid
the 2 pool, I would have faced at least one bleed action with a modifier
attached, just to see what happened.
L. Scott Johnson
>>blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
>>untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>
>My prey is your favourite Rulesmonger and mine, L. Scott Johnson.
Who doesn't spell 'rulemonger' with an 's', FWIW.
BTW, Neither Rudolpho nor any other Giovanni are in that deck's crypt.
That would be silly. :-)
I believe the empty vampire in question was dear old Tariq, the Silent.
>My prey leaves all his minions untapped on his turn, except Rudolfo who
>hunts. I block Rudolfo's hunt, play Aura Reading ... my prey turns over
>his hand and shows no Wakes (!). Stuff happens cross-table between my
As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes the existence of a Wake is
sufficient. It wasn't enough to save me/that deck, but that's another story.
Derek Ray
sjoh...@math.sc.edu (L. Scott Johnson) mumbled something about:
>>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>>>My prey has a tapped Wendy Wade with 1 blood, a tapped Erinyi with 1
>>>blood and a Sport Bike, a tapped, empty Rudolfo Giovanni, and an
>>>untapped Vagabond Mystic (who cannot block vampires). He has 4 pool.
>>
>>My prey is your favourite Rulesmonger and mine, L. Scott Johnson.
>
>Who doesn't spell 'rulemonger' with an 's', FWIW.
Because then it wouldn't rhyme with Droolsmonger? ;)
>BTW, Neither Rudolpho nor any other Giovanni are in that deck's crypt.
>That would be silly. :-)
>
>I believe the empty vampire in question was dear old Tariq, the Silent.
Yep. You're right. I'm brain damaged today. And as I was writing
this, I remember thinking "why the hell would he have Rudolfo?" All I
could remember is that it was a 3-cap. Maybe I was expecting Ambrosius
or something.