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Nominate your Crypt Wallpaper here

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librarian

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Dec 12, 2008, 5:52:20 PM12/12/08
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Inspired by jwjbwhelan's thread on wallpaper -

What vamps are clearly wallpaper? Is there such a thing? Even Tusk the
Talebearer has a place in some decks, as does Nakova. But some vamps
are really bad - who are they in your opinion? And why?

best -

chris

adam....@gmail.com

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Dec 12, 2008, 6:22:11 PM12/12/08
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The Nagaraja Prejudice is pretty terrible.

AcheronNi...@gmail.com

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Dec 12, 2008, 6:51:04 PM12/12/08
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On 13 Gru, 00:22, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 12, 5:52 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> The Nagaraja Prejudice is pretty terrible.

I'm suprised, really - it's great vampire. 4 cap with 3 bleed with
dom ? you surely does not know terrible vampires.

My bet:

Ethan Locke - 9 cap with 2 votes and only aus cel pot DOM THA without
useful special.

John Flournoy

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Dec 12, 2008, 6:51:12 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 5:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Unless you're playing with with aus/dom/nec, in which case she's great
- her special is kind of weak, but she's not actually losing anything
for it. And there's just not a lot of small vamps to support an aus/
dom/nec crypt (or any deck using two of the three with the third
splashed in, which is a lot easier to do.) Yeah, most of the time
you'd rather use Sennadurek, but that's because Sennadurek is awesome
rather than Prejudice being terrible...

Pretty much any vampire that's a 4-cap with two common disciplines and
a third that overlaps at least one of the first two on a wide range of
other vamps isn't going to be unplayable, even with no special at all.

-John Flournoy

Robert Scythe

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Dec 12, 2008, 7:14:48 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 2:52 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:

> What vamps are clearly wallpaper?  Is there such a thing?  Even Tusk the
> Talebearer has a place in some decks, as does Nakova.  But some vamps
> are really bad - who are they in your opinion?  And why?

I will quickly repeat what I wrote in the other thread:

Jack Dawson
Not even a merge ability with his advanced, WTF? But if he's your
main vamp and you put a bunch of him, and one advanced, you can bring
him up after you have a weapon in hand, of course, and then use
Epiphany to merge and use the real ability. Or all the Epiphany could
just be Freak/
Hag's so you don't waste time with the basic.

Felix

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Dec 12, 2008, 7:53:29 PM12/12/08
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Appolonius

this guys just a joke , a press , a sucky title , +1 bleed and the
crappiest disciplines of all 10 caps. compare him to....hmm , lets say
Klaus Konrecht, 10 ranks higher on the awesome scale.

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 12, 2008, 8:22:19 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 6:22 pm, "adam.hu...@gmail.com" <adam.hu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The Nagaraja Prejudice is pretty terrible.

Wha? He is a 4 cap who can play Trochomancy out of the box. Heck, even
if he is just a 4 cap with some disciplines, one of them is Dominate,
so he is useful by default. And then once and a while, he gets +2
bleed for nothing. He strikes me as kind of awesome.

-Peter

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 12, 2008, 8:27:18 PM12/12/08
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Most vampires, by virtue of how the game works, tend to have a home
somewhere, especially small/mid caps; I have used Tusk (and Tusk
Advanced!) in a deck where he wasn't bad (I wanted exactly 4 Nosferatu
with OBF, so I had Agripina, Grendel, Tusk, and Tusk Advanced and they
used a huge ton of Cloak the Gathering to stealth the presence weenies
through with bleeds. Of course, this was before Veil the Legions. And
G3 vampires). And Nakova was awesome, well, before Sabbat came out as
she was one of the few vampires with Pot/For. But really, the only
vampires I suspect almost never see play for just being bad are a
bunch of Jyhad era 10 caps, like Apolonious and Lucretia. But I
suspect someone wil defend even them.

-Peter

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 12, 2008, 8:28:51 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 7:14 pm, Robert Scythe <robertscy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I will quickly repeat what I wrote in the other thread:
>
> Jack Dawson
>     Not even a merge ability with his advanced, WTF? But if he's your
> main vamp and you put a bunch of him, and one advanced, you can bring
> him up after you have a weapon in hand, of course, and then use
> Epiphany to merge and use the real ability. Or all the Epiphany could
> just be Freak/
> Hag's so you don't waste time with the basic.

Jack Dawson Advanced is actually pretty good in a multi acting Gun
rush deck. But yeah, just use 5 of him and ignore the basic version.

-Peter

headle...@gmail.com

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Dec 12, 2008, 9:29:28 PM12/12/08
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Yeah, he's perfect to go with Harbingers & Slaughterhouses. if your
prey happens to be using lots of retainers or allies in their deck,
huge bonus.

Yavu Matebo, the 8-cap Nagaraja, is the terrible one. he's way too
expensive to use his special as anything other than a last-ditch
defense. superior dominate is nice, but for 2 less pool you can just
play Sennadurek and give her a dominate skill card, and her ability is
much more useful to boot.

J

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Dec 12, 2008, 10:02:15 PM12/12/08
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Quinton McDonnell
Elliott Sinclair
Theron


--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/grail_j

sul...@aol.com

unread,
Dec 12, 2008, 10:02:52 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 5:27 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> On Dec 12, 5:52 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> > Inspired by jwjbwhelan's thread on wallpaper -
>
> > What vamps are clearly wallpaper?  Is there such a thing?  Even Tusk the
> > Talebearer has a place in some decks, as does Nakova.  But some vamps
> > are really bad - who are they in your opinion?  And why?

> But really, the only


> vampires I suspect almost never see play for just being bad are a
> bunch of Jyhad era 10 caps, like Apolonious and Lucretia. But I
> suspect someone wil defend even them.

Sure, I'll defend Apple.

Goratrix (Adv)
Karsh
Lambach (Adv)
Marcus Vitel (Adv)
Nahir
Xaviar
Yong-Sun (both)
Kamiri wa Itherero
Troglodytia
Hukros
Terrifisto
Ysador the Foul
Dmitri Borodin
Lizette
Phaedyme
Thucimia
Gracetius
Gwyedd

Would all rate for me as bad or worse (with a number of other 10 cap
possibilities I'd have to think more about), but of course people play
with these and there could be reasons to play them more than Apple
just as I find reasons to play Apple over them.

Apple's bad. But, he's given far too much credit for awfulness, some
of which isn't his fault at all. The worst thing about him isn't
inferior Potence or being stuck with the horrid Primogen title, it's
that Constanza and Donal have DOM instead of PRE. He's just fine in a
bleed/vote Majesty deck where he can be voted a better title, but he,
Rake, and Cruez don't justify the deck. Not when there are awesome
Toreador (hey, look, bounce and TGB and ...) in group 1, not when
there are zero group 2 P/J with Presence. Then, what if there were
more Fortitude-blessed friends he could play with?

Group 1 was much worse off before Anarch Convert, but it still suffers
from limited options. Would people think so poorly of him if he were
in group 4?

I find Lucretia to be much worse as she lacks - PRE + high cap +
Minion Tap + Voter Cap = useful. But, then again, she suffers for
similar reasons Apple does - lack of friends within her group, bad
group. OTOH, unlike Apple who has a useful special, Lucretia's lacks
any sort of synergy with her disciplines. Where Apple is outclassed
by Princes with Dominate, Lucretia is outclassed by the fact that her
clan has enough P/J in group 1/2. Some things help - Lost in
Translation, Deep Song, whatever, but the horrid Primogen title and
the bad group make it difficult to see progress. Of course, those two
things make it hard for Apple to get any better as well.

So, sure, sucktactitude from both of them, but they can join a big
club of badly designed high caps throughout the game's history.

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 12, 2008, 11:20:13 PM12/12/08
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On Dec 12, 10:02 pm, J <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Quinton McDonnell

Yeah, he's pretty bad. An 8 cap with 1 superior discpline? One of the
casualties of +1 strength costing, like, 2 points in Jyhad. Along with
Adrianne. Sad.

> Elliott Sinclair

He's just like Quinton. As is Sebastian Marley. I love Sebastian's
picture, what with the cat on his head and all. But I can never bring
myself to use him in practice.

> Theron

I dunno--at least he has 3 in clans at superior *and* fortitude. His
special is unlikely to every come into play, and as a result, there
are few instances for it to be worth actually paying 8 for him, but I
can see, like, a Malks with Fortitude deck that uses him to good
effect (there are 5x G2/3 Malk/!Malk with fortitude).

-Peter

jcrossn...@gmail.com

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Dec 13, 2008, 2:58:12 AM12/13/08
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The following list of purportedly awful vampires was offered:

> Goratrix (Adv)
> Karsh
> Lambach (Adv)
> Marcus Vitel (Adv)
> Nahir
> Xaviar
> Yong-Sun (both)
> Kamiri wa Itherero
> Troglodytia
> Hukros
> Terrifisto
> Ysador the Foul
> Dmitri Borodin
> Lizette
> Phaedyme
> Thucimia
> Gracetius
> Gwyedd

Without taking the time to address every point that comes up in my
mind, I should point out that Xaviar terrifies the living hell out of
me. There are very very few vampires who are as good in combat out of
the box, combined with his ability to multi-act and stack additional
combat permanents. Due to the play tendencies of a local player, I
think about what Xaviar will do to me every time I build a new deck.

For a long time I've been saying that Patrizia Giovanni is the worst
vampire in the game. I'm still not feeling like I was ever wrong about
that.

brandons...@yahoo.com

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Dec 13, 2008, 3:33:25 AM12/13/08
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Until Twilight Rebellion, I'd say that you are on the right track.
Now, Pat has access to 2 out of 3 untap disciplines from Crimethinc.
She can gear up, Keystone Kine, etc. Reducing a bleed by 2 with Detect
Authority isn't bad. Her ability certainly isn't worth the additional
pool, but the discipline spread might be now.
Fatty vampires with weak specials, no AUS, dom, or for/FOR get on my
craptastic list. Sorry, Apples, you suck dude. Sure you have for, but
you have 6 discipline points and can't play 2nd tradition or anything.
Sad.

Brandon

nom...@jippii.fi

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Dec 13, 2008, 4:41:43 AM12/13/08
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Lucretia, the Cess Queen can be useful in a Trophy deck built around
her: she has a minor title so she can play Red List, Celerity and
Fortitude for multiacting, Fortitude, Potence and Animalism to remove
minions from the ready region, and she can play Sacrificial Lamb to
trigger those Trophies if Diablerie is unsafe. And all this is done at
+1 stealth. I've seen that kind of deck in action, and it was
actually half decent. Oh, and she has access to Enkil Cog too, if the
player of the deck has bought 7 or so KoT booster boxes...

AcheronNi...@gmail.com

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Dec 13, 2008, 7:18:38 AM12/13/08
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One word - crypt sons - her ability is good now. Patrizia is actualy
mediocre vampire. 10/11 caps can play enkil cog now, so they are not
out of question. 9 caps are now screwed.

XZealot

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Dec 13, 2008, 12:57:00 PM12/13/08
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There are no bad vampires only bad players

AcheronNi...@gmail.com

unread,
Dec 13, 2008, 2:22:20 PM12/13/08
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Husamettin is also crap vampire - 8 cap assamite with CEL/OBF/QUI/pre/
pot and useless special ?
Intisar - 8 cap OBF/PRE/SER/cel/pot and special, which usually is not
used even if you meet such cornercase situation ?
Tereza Rostas - 8 cap CHI/FOR/ani/aus/pot and awful special ?

Maybe in crazy Intisar/Tereza Rostas/SER weenie enticement deck ?
Cool, both share inferior potence :D

XZealot

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Dec 13, 2008, 2:39:48 PM12/13/08
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On Dec 13, 1:22 pm, AcheronNightStal...@gmail.com wrote:
> Husamettin is also crap vampire - 8 cap assamite with CEL/OBF/QUI/pre/
> pot and useless special ?

Scorpions Touch hand strikes under grapple with Street Cred and
disarm? Anarch Multi-Rush with Jalal Sayad/Steely Tenacity/
CrimethInc? Free States Rant with pre to push the vote through?


> Intisar  - 8 cap OBF/PRE/SER/cel/pot and special, which usually is not
> used even if you meet such cornercase situation ?

Strong Vampire, all inclans at superior, and a easily usable special
with Edge Vitiation. Straight up powerbleed with multiaction for
Enticement. Good Synergy with Sargon for multi-entice action.

> Tereza Rostas - 8 cap CHI/FOR/ani/aus/pot and awful special ?

Tereza Rostas is not as bad as you think.
- she is a ravnos which means that she has access to WoN
- she has potence so you can make a all-Tereza all the time mulit-
rush deck with illusions of the kindred/grapple/prevent/disarm/
amaranth/ritual of the bitter rose deck that has alot of synergy to
eat all the vampires on the table.

Killiam

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Dec 13, 2008, 6:25:30 PM12/13/08
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I'd also like to throw some love Lucretia's way. I sometimes think of
her as Spider Killer Jr. In addition to having identical specials,
they share ANI-OBF-aus-cel-for. A few years ago I made some very
successful decks featuring the two of them alongside Matthias for the
Minion Tap-Renewed Vigor bloat combo. Thanks to Repulsion, I had
access to three vamps with perma-stealth---a rather rare and precious
resource in V:TES, and awesome on vamps who can Freak Drive. Cloaks
(and sometimes stealth locations) to put the stealth over the top.
One version used Vials of Elder Vitae/Pier 13 for getting superior
Repulsion on Lucretia and Spider Killer, but that was just silly.
(Still, permanent +2 stealth on a vamp is great fun.) The most
successful versions included the infamous Arika, who also shares OBF-
aus-cel-for. Good times.

-Bill

Salem

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Dec 14, 2008, 4:55:50 AM12/14/08
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Peter D Bakija wrote:
> On Dec 12, 10:02 pm, J <grai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> As is Sebastian Marley. I love Sebastian's
> picture, what with the cat on his head and all. But I can never bring
> myself to use him in practice.

I thought it was a Squirrel?

>> Theron
>
> I dunno--at least he has 3 in clans at superior *and* fortitude. His
> special is unlikely to every come into play, and as a result, there
> are few instances for it to be worth actually paying 8 for him, but I
> can see, like, a Malks with Fortitude deck that uses him to good
> effect (there are 5x G2/3 Malk/!Malk with fortitude).

I've seen a G2/3 Malk/!Malk with fortitude deck (I think it was by
Brendan Basto, ex-NC of Australia). Wasn't too shabby.

--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
"In *my* Assamite deck, this would pwn you in teh FAEC, so shut up."
"Thats only cos u've never sene mi Gionavvi PUNCHnMUCNH u asshat."
- James Coupe

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 14, 2008, 10:57:23 AM12/14/08
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On Dec 14, 4:55 am, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I thought it was a Squirrel?

Heh--I always figured it was a cat. Back in the day, I tried really,
really hard to use Sebastian, but as a 7 cap with one superior
discipline and then pot and +1 strength instead of just POT, it was
just too hard to justify. Chester, also a 7 with ANI but then POT
instead of pot/+1 strength, and fortitude (which is much better in a
Nosferatu deck than aus). And a vote. Is just *soooooo* much more
effective. And Chester isn't actually that good. Which says a lot
about Sebastian. I was really hoping for an advanced version with,
like, good disciplines at some point, but I stopped hoping that. If he
had AUS (so he was, say, ANI, AUS, pot, obf, +1 strength at 7), he
wouldn't be that bad, and would fit in with Sheldon nicely. Oh well.

> I've seen a G2/3 Malk/!Malk with fortitude deck (I think it was by
> Brendan Basto, ex-NC of Australia). Wasn't too shabby.

Yeah, see, that strikes me as actually pretty good--reasonable S+B
with Freak Drive and reliable combat defense? What isn't to like?
Yeah, the guys are all pretty expensive, but with Kindred Spirits and
bleed bounce, that isn't that big of a deal.

-Peter

Reyda !

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Dec 14, 2008, 11:58:44 AM12/14/08
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HURRAYYY !!! :D

Salem

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Dec 14, 2008, 4:42:01 PM12/14/08
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Peter D Bakija wrote:
> On Dec 14, 4:55 am, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I thought it was a Squirrel?
>
> Heh--I always figured it was a cat. Back in the day, I tried really,
> really hard to use Sebastian, but as a 7 cap with one superior
> discipline and then pot and +1 strength instead of just POT, it was
> just too hard to justify. Chester, also a 7 with ANI but then POT
> instead of pot/+1 strength, and fortitude (which is much better in a
> Nosferatu deck than aus). And a vote. Is just *soooooo* much more
> effective. And Chester isn't actually that good.

But....that picture...*shudder*....

>> I've seen a G2/3 Malk/!Malk with fortitude deck (I think it was by
>> Brendan Basto, ex-NC of Australia). Wasn't too shabby.
>
> Yeah, see, that strikes me as actually pretty good--reasonable S+B
> with Freak Drive and reliable combat defense? What isn't to like?
> Yeah, the guys are all pretty expensive, but with Kindred Spirits and
> bleed bounce, that isn't that big of a deal.

yeah it allowed him to do stuff other than S&B. Tool-up, play some
whacky screwy dem card, whatever, and _then_ Freak Drive and bleed for 5
and gain a pool. Pretty solid, and a lot more interesting to play (and
play against) than your 'standard' KS bleed deck.

He was a big fan of [for]/Freak Drive sidelines. I also recall a similar
thing around Lasombra using Lucita, Aurora, etc.

(actually, he was a big fan of tor/!tor, but when he _wasn't_ playing
one of those, it'd often be with the [for] sideline. Unless I am just
misremembering and getting various people from the Sydney scene mixed up! :)

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 14, 2008, 6:09:00 PM12/14/08
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On Dec 14, 4:42 pm, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> But....that picture...*shudder*....

Heh. I have always been kinda fond of that one too. I used him a lot
in very old school POT/for decks long ago. But even then, he wasn't
that good...

> yeah it allowed him to do stuff other than S&B. Tool-up, play some
> whacky screwy dem card, whatever, and _then_ Freak Drive and bleed for 5
> and gain a pool. Pretty solid, and a lot more interesting to play (and
> play against) than your 'standard' KS bleed deck.

Yeah. That's what I'd figure. It would probably pretty toolboxy to be
worth it, but toolboxy S+B is still S+B.

-Peter

acheronni...@gmail.com

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Dec 14, 2008, 6:21:05 PM12/14/08
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can play the call + kindred spirits ... thats quite good.

Johannes Walch

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Dec 15, 2008, 10:07:42 AM12/15/08
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Peter D Bakija schrieb:

I have to agree with Peter. Actually I lost in the finals of the German
nats to Erik“s Prejudice because I had the choice to either play my
Bimas and get the Far Masteried or discard them and get bled for 3. I
chose the didscard (which was still better), but in the deciding round
it was the bleed for 3 that killed me.

Actually every deck that plays allies (who doesnt) should hate Prejudice.

--
If playing against Cock all you need to
remember is: Don“t get caught by Cock.

Hyllan

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Dec 15, 2008, 1:30:30 PM12/15/08
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On 12 Dec, 23:52, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> Inspired by jwjbwhelan's thread on wallpaper -
>
> What vamps are clearly wallpaper?  Is there such a thing?  Even Tusk the
> Talebearer has a place in some decks, as does Nakova.  But some vamps
> are really bad - who are they in your opinion?  And why?
>
> best -
>
> chris

All the vampires mentioned are at least playable. I would like to
nominate Jacob, the Glitch and Sonja Blue. Nice disciplines and nice
capacities, no doubt, but would anyone dare to play with them?

Chris Berger

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Dec 15, 2008, 1:39:33 PM12/15/08
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Sonja is for trick decks. I built one the other day - it doesn't work
very well. Still, though, paying 1 pool (although 5 transfers) for a
vamp that passes around the table isn't necessarily that bad of a
deal, if you feel like you can make the best use of her.

Jacob's drawback is hardly as big a deal as so many people make it out
to be. I usually just complain about hand-jam whenever I play him.
And when someone uses his drawback, I say, "sweet! free Deal with the
Devil." Even if nobody believes me, as long as they're not playing a
Brinkmanship deck, I should be alright.

XZealot

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Dec 15, 2008, 1:42:14 PM12/15/08
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On Dec 15, 12:30 pm, Hyllan <caroline_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Jacob the Glitch is WHITE HOT! Sheepdog/Social Ladder BAM! 4 POOL!

Sonja Blue is perfect fodder for a 6 cap trophy deck based around her
disciplines. If they steal her, then you have a redlist target, if
they don't then you have a free minion.

Salem

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Dec 15, 2008, 4:57:28 PM12/15/08
to

I have Jacob in a deck. Brought him out the other night. You'll find
that quite often your predator just either won't have a master card to
waste setting him off, or if they do have a master card, they will want
to play it instead.

His ability didn't happen even once that game. Towards the end it
probably would have saved me if it did, though, as I was just itching to
cycle into some bleed mods....

wumpus

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Dec 15, 2008, 5:21:23 PM12/15/08
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Howdy,

On Dec 12, 2:52 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> Inspired by jwjbwhelan's thread on wallpaper -
>
> What vamps are clearly wallpaper?  Is there such a thing?  Even Tusk the
> Talebearer has a place in some decks, as does Nakova.  But some vamps
> are really bad - who are they in your opinion?  And why?

Rico Loco seems completely unuseable. I've tried designing decks
around him, but the results are alway hopeless.

Other vampires with self-hosing specials: Hector Trelane (but I can
think of good ways to use him), Miguel Cordovera (he's probably going
to cost you two pool a turn or a Deflection and your predator abusing
him in combat).

Benedict Giovanni and Sonja are pretty self-hosy, though playing Benny
with Ignazio or both with Diamond Thunderbolts seems possible. What
is it with pot/FOR vamps and auto-suckritude? Most of the are
freakin' slaves, and most of the rest have to shoot themselves in the
foot. I mean, Nakova, Hermanas, even frickin' Jimmy has to have a
weird, nutpunching special.

Finally, Rex also makes me sad. I tried using him in my pot/VIC decks
many times, but the only time it was worth it was when I got to burn
him to get rid of a J:CS. Please, Design Gods, make the world right
with a Rex (ADV) who can merge to form Devastator.

I'm sure I'm forgetting other auto-hosing vamps...

Alex

jcrossn...@gmail.com

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Dec 16, 2008, 9:58:03 AM12/16/08
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Wumpus wondered:

>What
> is it with pot/FOR vamps and auto-suckritude?  Most of the are
> freakin' slaves, and most of the rest have to shoot themselves in the
> foot.  I mean, Nakova, Hermanas, even frickin' Jimmy has to have a
> weird, nutpunching special.

Although it was probably intended to be a disadvantage, Jimmy Dunn's
text is actually much more often useful to the player with Jimmy,
since it allows you to deploy the emergency backup Jimmy in case
something bad happens to the first one.

Merlin

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Dec 17, 2008, 11:07:50 AM12/17/08
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Yes! Rex is my nominee for terrible vampire. Patrizia was on the list,
but maybe that's changed with twilight Rebellion? I'm not going to
test it, someone else can lemme know how that goes.

Other Ancient Hearts shite: Damaskenos, the Herald of Leandro.
Elisabetta Romano (also better with TR/Crimethinc? Wait, she's titled!
No dice.). Yeah, they have some Dominate, but you're really paying for
that.

Post-WoTC shite: Some of the new 1-caps have insanely horrible
disadvantages. Schuyler, for instance. I like the restrictions on 1-
caps in general, but Schuyler is just too good. . .for your prey.

Prejudice is actually awesome, btw.

-Merlin

brandons...@yahoo.com

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Dec 17, 2008, 1:01:17 PM12/17/08
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Schuyler is a decent dork. Use him as a chump blocker, vote caller, or
cold body. Make him an anarch and use him for Rev Counsel. Detect
Authority at tha makes him more than pay for himself if he says up to
react against bleeds. I'm not a fan of the guy who makes titled
vampires have +1 bleed against you (whether he is ready or not). Alex
sucks pretty hard, but can still vote, etc.

Brandon

Brandon

brandons...@yahoo.com

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Dec 17, 2008, 1:28:39 PM12/17/08
to

Hah, double signed the last one. Forgot to mention Mask of 1,000
Faces. You can always bait someone into blocking Schuyler and then
beat them down.

Malone

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Dec 22, 2008, 9:32:57 AM12/22/08
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On Dec 13, 2:22 pm, AcheronNightStal...@gmail.com wrote:
> Husamettin is also crap vampire - 8 cap assamite with CEL/OBF/QUI/pre/
> pot and useless special ?
> Intisar  - 8 cap OBF/PRE/SER/cel/pot and special, which usually is not
> used even if you meet such cornercase situation ?
> Tereza Rostas - 8 cap CHI/FOR/ani/aus/pot and awful special ?


I've used all three of them happily, although with Tereza it was in a
deck built just for her to be the 'star' (Senso Depro, Mass Reality,
pot, I think it was). Now that I think about it, the deck with
Husamettin was a little doubtful... But Intisar is A-OK -- if you
want OBF+PRE+SER in G2/3 you want to use her, and there is potential
to use her Potence or (theoretically) her Celerity. Really, if
someone would be a very good 7 cap, can they be that bad an 8 cap?

Malone

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Dec 22, 2008, 9:51:34 AM12/22/08
to

> > Finally, Rex also makes me sad.  I tried using him in my pot/VIC decks
> > many times, but the only time it was worth it was when I got to burn
> > him to get rid of a J:CS.  Please, Design Gods, make the world right
> > with a Rex (ADV) who can merge to form Devastator.
>
> Yes! Rex is my nominee for terrible vampire. Patrizia was on the list,
> but maybe that's changed with twilight Rebellion? I'm not going to
> test it, someone else can lemme know how that goes.

I'd be willing to call Rex the worst of all. Patrizia definitely got
partially rehabilitated, without even getting an advancement. I like
it when old crappy cards get rehabilitated. Lutz makes some dubious
Political Actions much less dubious. But what could fix Rex, short of
something absurd, like a merge text of "combat cards requiring
Potence, Protean or Vicissitude cost Rex one less blood"?


> Other Ancient Hearts shite: Damaskenos, the Herald of Leandro.

He'd be a really nice 5 cap, so how bad can he be as a 6 cap? I
always put him and a Malkavian Justicar card in any Eurobrujah deck.


> Elisabetta Romano (also better with TR/Crimethinc? Wait, she's titled!
> No dice.).

No dice, indeed!

Jozxyqk

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Dec 22, 2008, 10:42:16 AM12/22/08
to
Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> I'd be willing to call Rex the worst of all. Patrizia definitely got
> partially rehabilitated, without even getting an advancement. I like
> it when old crappy cards get rehabilitated. Lutz makes some dubious
> Political Actions much less dubious. But what could fix Rex, short of
> something absurd, like a merge text of "combat cards requiring
> Potence, Protean or Vicissitude cost Rex one less blood"?

If you think Rex is the worst vampire in the game, you've never
built a Bauble deck.
He makes an excellent free Assault Rifle.

Teeka

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Dec 22, 2008, 11:24:00 AM12/22/08
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On 15 dec, 23:21, wumpus <wump...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Finally, Rex also makes me sad.  I tried using him in my pot/VIC decks
> many times, but the only time it was worth it was when I got to burn
> him to get rid of a J:CS.  Please, Design Gods, make the world right
> with a Rex (ADV) who can merge to form Devastator.
>

Lol! Props for the Transformers reference. :-)

Malone

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Dec 22, 2008, 11:28:18 AM12/22/08
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On Dec 22, 10:42 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:

True, I've never made a Bauble deck. Still, if you want a low-cap
Vicissitude minion to play Bauble, I think most other choices are
better than Rex.

Merlin

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Dec 22, 2008, 11:52:14 AM12/22/08
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On Dec 22, 10:42 am, Jozxyqk <jfeue...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:

If by "free", you mean "costs 3 pool, three transfers, a card and an
action" then sure, you got me there. :p

-Merlin

Chris Berger

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Dec 22, 2008, 12:18:17 PM12/22/08
to
Bauble deck aside, can you really call Rex the "worst". He's a 3 cap
with 3 points of disciplines and a disadvantage that is pretty
painful, but not the worst one that any Caitiff or Pander has. Uriah
is pretty harsh, though he's useful in some trojan horse-style decks.

Ignoring the other Caitiff and Pander who *might* be worse, any of the
5 caps with 4 inferior disciplines and nothing else are, IMHO, much
worse than Rex. And my vote still goes to Nakova as the absolute
worst. 3 points of disciplines, a Primogen title, and a special that
should only be worth a point at most... I know there were some trick
decks at some point that focused on using her ability, but I just
don't see the point. Dawn Op? What can Nakova do that's really worth
blocking? Force of Will, I guess, but then you might as well just let
her go to torpor and block any attempt to get her out. And if they do
block the FoW, there are so many things that completely hose the silly
combo anyway, that is it really worth a 6 cap vampire with nothing
else going for her?

The only way I can really think of making a worthwhile Nakova deck is:
Agent of Power (Valeren), Auspex Master, Soul Gem, Freak Drive, Rush,
Eye of Unforgiving Heaven. But then you have to figure out how to
burn the rest of her blood. If you could get it to your pool, it'd be
better, or Heidelberg to a different vamp (but then you lose the Turbo
aspect if the vamp is too old to be brought out by Soul Gem), but even
just burning the blood off her to no effect isn't exactly easy with
only pot/FOR. I dunno, maybe there's an actual working combo in there
somewhere. Or maybe the stupid Dawn Op trick works better than I
think it does... either way, Nakova is completely crap outside of one
stupid trick deck.

Depending on whether you rate a vampire by overall utility (which IMO
makes Nakova the worst), or by whether or not you would actually put
them in deck (even Nakova and Sonja go in certain decks, because they
have unique abilities, which IMO makes the 5 caps with 4 inferior
disciplines worse), there are vampires that are worse than Rex.

James Coupe

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Dec 22, 2008, 2:27:33 PM12/22/08
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In message <e7082943-ee04-4e3f...@i18g2000prf.googlegroup

In groups 2-3 below 4 capacity, you have 4 choices - Rex (3), Christine
Boscacci (2), Horatio (2) and Olga (1). Going up to 4 gives you more
choices, but saving a pool is a good idea. Olga is fairly weak for a
Bauble-focused deck (she's 1 cap, it costs 2 blood, so you need to make
more of an effort). Putting in one of each of Rex, Christine and
Horatio is a pretty obvious ploy, however. Horatio and Christine are
typically better than Rex here, but the point is that you don't have
many choices at this level. Vicissitude isn't a discipline like, say,
Presence, found on multiple clans and having plentiful weenies.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 22, 2008, 5:20:48 PM12/22/08
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In article
<8fcc39dc-c9c8-4dd3...@d36g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,

Malone <kffo...@indiana.edu> wrote:
> I'd be willing to call Rex the worst of all.

I dunno--Jane Sims is pretty bad in the same way as Rex, if not kind of
worse. If only you could put them in the same deck...

And while Rex is pretty darn bad, he can still play, like, Vic and Pro
stealth cards (where Jane can't really get into combat to not pay extra
blood for her cards without paying extra blood by bleeding for 1 and
hoping she gets blocked...) and is fine as another disciplineless Pander
in some sort of Legacy of Pander vote deck. But yeah, he is pretty bad.

Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html

"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
-Gaff

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 22, 2008, 5:23:16 PM12/22/08
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In article <giocgo$12h$1...@news.motzarella.org>,

Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote:
> If you think Rex is the worst vampire in the game, you've never
> built a Bauble deck.
> He makes an excellent free Assault Rifle.

Well, sure (and he can play Plasmic Form for stealth at normal cost,
too!), but as noted, so do Christine Boscacci, Horatio, and Olga. And
they don't also blow monkeys the rest of the time. Although, you could
specifically use Rex to be the Assault Rifle, specifically *cause* those
other three don't suck when they aren't guns...

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 22, 2008, 5:33:35 PM12/22/08
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In article
<3966618e-a1fa-41eb...@c1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Bauble deck aside, can you really call Rex the "worst". He's a 3 cap
> with 3 points of disciplines and a disadvantage that is pretty
> painful, but not the worst one that any Caitiff or Pander has. Uriah
> is pretty harsh, though he's useful in some trojan horse-style decks.

I still get milage out of Uriah as just a 1 cap with pot in weenie
potence decks. Just don't, ya know, transfer him out first...

> Ignoring the other Caitiff and Pander who *might* be worse, any of the
> 5 caps with 4 inferior disciplines and nothing else are, IMHO, much
> worse than Rex.

Well, maybe. There aren't that many of them (although I'm hard pressed
to figure out how to search for them on monger :-) and don't most of
them have some sort of weak special anyway? Tiberius has a not
completely useless ability, a really good picture, and at the time, a
good, hard to get discipline combo (obf/cel, which was hard to get
before, ya know, Ancient Harts, and was good for disguised gun decks
before concealed was fixed :-), and while a 5 cap with 4 inferiors isn't
great, they aren't generally worse than the 4 caps with 3 inferiors (who
also aren't that great, granted) and can still benefit in a clan based
deck. But yeah, those 5 caps with 4 inferiors are pretty bad.

> And my vote still goes to Nakova as the absolute
> worst. 3 points of disciplines, a Primogen title, and a special that
> should only be worth a point at most...

Yeah, she was bad. But again, at the time, she was punished for having
FOR, pot (the original designers seemed to feel that pot/for was
waaayyyy better than it actually was--see: Uriah, Gwendolyn, Nakova,
etc). She as great for trumpy Pot/For combat in, like, 1995. And she
does have a cool picture! But both she and Judah clearly could have had
even an extra inferior discipline and that would have been fine for
everyone involved.

> there are vampires that are worse than Rex.

As noted elsewhere, I think the very similar Jane Sims is worse than
Rex; Rex can be put in decks with no combat cards (disciplineless Pander
politics; uh, something with Pro or Vic stealth and minimal combat?) and
his disadvantage is irrelevant; you put Jane in a deck with no non
combat cards, she can't get into combat really so well.

Chris Berger

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Dec 22, 2008, 8:51:16 PM12/22/08
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On Dec 22, 4:33 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
> In article
> <3966618e-a1fa-41eb-8d16-a6ce78142...@c1g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>,

>  Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > Bauble deck aside, can you really call Rex the "worst".  He's a 3 cap
> > with 3 points of disciplines and a disadvantage that is pretty
> > painful, but not the worst one that any Caitiff or Pander has.  Uriah
> > is pretty harsh, though he's useful in some trojan horse-style decks.
>
> I still get milage out of Uriah as just a 1 cap with pot in weenie
> potence decks. Just don't, ya know, transfer him out first...
>
Sure, but it's a bigger disadvantage than simply paying 1 more blood
for combat cards isn't it?

> > Ignoring the other Caitiff and Pander who *might* be worse, any of the
> > 5 caps with 4 inferior disciplines and nothing else are, IMHO, much
> > worse than Rex.
>
> Well, maybe. There aren't that many of them (although I'm hard pressed
> to figure out how to search for them on monger :-) and don't most of
> them have some sort of weak special anyway? Tiberius has a not
> completely useless ability, a really good picture, and at the time, a
> good, hard to get discipline combo (obf/cel, which was hard to get
> before, ya know, Ancient Harts, and was good for disguised gun decks
> before concealed was fixed :-), and while a 5 cap with 4 inferiors isn't
> great, they aren't generally worse than the 4 caps with 3 inferiors (who
> also aren't that great, granted) and can still benefit in a clan based
> deck. But yeah, those 5 caps with 4 inferiors are pretty bad.
>

Andrei Puxon - absolutely terrible. ani chi for cel. Celerity
doesn't even combo particularly well with any of the disciplines he
has... well, Forced March is good, but not for a vampire that can't
do anything much worth untapping for... =) Vittorio is bad also,
though at least the fortitude goes well with Proxy Kissed. Dedefra
has a superior, and used to be the only 5 cap with superior SER, but
Zhenga is pretty much just better (it still sucks that there's no 4
cap with SER or a 5 cap with two superiors including SER). Necromancy
might go well in a mummy deck, although if you're playing mummies,
group 4/5 is better for Abdelsobek and Halim Bey. Sabine Lafitte,
Melissa Barton, and Tiberius have special abilities, but none of them
particularly make up for them being 5 caps with no superior
disciplines. None of these vampires is completely unplayable to the
degree that Nakova is, but I think they're all a lot worse than Rex.

> > there are vampires that are worse than Rex.
>
> As noted elsewhere, I think the very similar Jane Sims is worse than
> Rex; Rex can be put in decks with no combat cards (disciplineless Pander
> politics; uh, something with Pro or Vic stealth and minimal combat?) and
> his disadvantage is irrelevant; you put Jane in a deck with no non
> combat cards, she can't get into combat really so well.
>

Umm... what's that thing about the crack pipe? Umm... put it down?
Jane Sims, seriously? I've seen her played plenty of times, and is
usually very brutal. She's a 4 cap with VIC aus ani pro. Even if you
don't use the protean, she's a monster. She doesn't pay an extra
blood for Inner Essence, so trust me, she can afford to pay for that
Nose of the Hound or Enhanced Senses or whatever. Oh, and she doesn't
pay extra blood for using KRCG or Rumor Mill either.

A disadvantage doesn't have to be made irrelevant if the rest of the
stuff the vamp gets is worth it...

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 22, 2008, 9:20:07 PM12/22/08
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In article
<50fd121d-ba53-4087...@e1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,

Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> Sure, but it's a bigger disadvantage than simply paying 1 more blood
> for combat cards isn't it?

Well, kinda, in an absolute sense, yeah, but as Uriah is a 1 and Rex is
a 3, Uriah seems more worth the pool investment than Rex does most of
the time (in an instance where he is worth using), i.e. even with a
worse disadvantage, I'd expect to get more than 1 pool worth out of
Uriah where I generally wouldn't from Rex.

> Andrei Puxon - absolutely terrible. ani chi for cel.

Ah, yeah, he is horrible. Although I did use him recently in a deck that
was all about Ravnos/Tumnimos/WoN, and wanted minimal crypt size. But
yeah, replacing him with a 6 is generally just going to be completely
better.

> Vittorio is bad also,
> though at least the fortitude goes well with Proxy Kissed.

Ah, yes, also bad.

> Umm... what's that thing about the crack pipe? Umm... put it down?

Really?

> Jane Sims, seriously? I've seen her played plenty of times, and is
> usually very brutal.

Huh. I can't imagine ever wanting to put her in a deck. As there are
enough other better vampires that don't have a disadvantage and do have
VIC and are more or less the same size.

> She's a 4 cap with VIC aus ani pro. Even if you
> don't use the protean, she's a monster. She doesn't pay an extra
> blood for Inner Essence, so trust me, she can afford to pay for that
> Nose of the Hound or Enhanced Senses or whatever. Oh, and she doesn't
> pay extra blood for using KRCG or Rumor Mill either.

Yeah, but still. If I'm building a deck that is all about VIC combat?
I'm using other vampires. And she isn't making the cut.

I can't envision building decks that would use Jane pretty much, well,
ever. But Rex? I can see decks that would use him. But I am clearly
crack addled, so take that for what it is worth.

> A disadvantage doesn't have to be made irrelevant if the rest of the
> stuff the vamp gets is worth it...

Sure, but in Jane's case, you just play G2/3 and get a a 4, 5, 5, 6, 6
with VIC and other good disciplines instead.

jwjbw...@gmail.com

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Dec 23, 2008, 2:08:35 AM12/23/08
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Peter D Bakija wrote:
> > Andrei Puxon - absolutely terrible. ani chi for cel.
>
> Ah, yeah, he is horrible. Although I did use him recently in a deck that
> was all about Ravnos/Tumnimos/WoN, and wanted minimal crypt size. But
> yeah, replacing him with a 6 is generally just going to be completely
> better.

I'm not sure why a 5 cap gets only 4 pts of disciplines & no special.
But Andre would go great in an anarch deck relying heavily on
Diversion & Hell for Leather.

> > Vittorio is bad also,
> > though at least the fortitude goes well with Proxy Kissed.
>
> Ah, yes, also bad.

I think the design team then felt that fortitude & potence was a
particularly dangerous combination. See also Nakova

Peter D Bakija

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Dec 23, 2008, 9:15:54 AM12/23/08
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On Dec 23, 2:08 am, jwjbwhe...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm not sure why a 5 cap gets only 4 pts of disciplines & no special.

They made a few of them. Apparently, due to smoking crack.

> But Andre would go great in an anarch deck relying heavily on
> Diversion & Hell for Leather.

Well, kinda. I'm sure there are better choices.

> I think the design team then felt that fortitude & potence was a
> particularly dangerous combination.  See also Nakova

You saw all those other posts where I made that exact same point,
like, 30 times, right? I think I was the ground floor of that point.
So yeah, I'm with you there.

-Peter

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