[un]Official Clan lasombra newsletter
noodleboy
Apols if I'm treading on turf that is not my own. I just thought that
I would share my opinions on the Lasombra side of the Black Hand
equation now that the expansion has finally landed. You can agree with
these opinions, or gobble my chopper. Either is good.
But first, let keep with tradition and kick the newsletter off with a
bit of creative writing. Watch me haiku:
****
No toilet paper
Fortunately I have an
Abyssal Hunter
****
Recent additions to the Lasombra Clan have been a mixed bag. And not a
quality mixed bag either - more like the reject mixed bag that all the
other sticky fingered kids have thrown back into the mystery box
because it's full of grotty licorice allsorts and copies of Alpha
Flight #72.
Marcus Vitel ADV proved [in all ways, including the artwork] that he
was far better off sticking to banging the secretary and insider
trading over at Ventrue HQ. Tobias was a decent addition to a deck
with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and
Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of
POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all
wary-like]. Lucita ADV is easily the best thing to happen to Team
Lasombra in years, her merged and regular abilities just adding to the
devilry of that new red dress. Cha-ching. One out of three? Not bad.
Not good either, but as I'm constantly reminded by my partners in VTES
crime, we who received the joy that was Baltimore Purge should never
complain too loudly.
However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary
collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans
at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion. So, let's
take a gander at the latest lads and lassies to join our band of
smooth criminals:
Hester Reed
3 cap pot obt
Sabbat
First cab off the rank in terms of cap, the lovely Hester gives a
POT/OBT combat deck the weenie it needed to lead the charge. Sadly,
we're still lacking anyone under 6 with POT to back her up, but I
suppose that's too much to ask. Is she uber? Nay. But she can get the
job done, clad in a top hat and skin tight black PVC to boot. Artwork
by Rebecca Guay doesn't hurt her case either.
2.5 out of 5.
Sadly, we're followed by:
Tabitha Fisk
4 cap obt pot pro
Sabbat
Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell
anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as
useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly
ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet
wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs.
1 out of 5.
Banjoko
5 cap DOM obt pot
Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph.
This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim
with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to
boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra,
straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I
predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every
Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo!
4 out of 5.
Henri Lavenant Lasombra
7 cap DOM OBT pot qui
Sabbat. Black Hand.
Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know
that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper. Everything
else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He
could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to
flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie.
3.5 out of 5.
Nahir
10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha
Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and
pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter
gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed.
Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's
penchant for diddling arabs, we're confronted with this car wreck of a
vampire. 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta
useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But
the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed
to do with ANI? Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's
give her ANI instead. And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow
goats, that's "why". And blow them she does.
1 out of 5.
So again, a mixed bag, covered with the sticky fingerprints of a dozen
snotty nosed predecessors. Does the brilliance of Banjoko make up for
the crime against humanity that is Nahir? Well, sort of. But a 6 cap
with all 3 in clans at superior somehow still seems a long way off.
Hell, I think most of us would settle for a 7 or 8 cap with OBT, DOM,
POT. Is it too much to ask for a minion who can do it all at superior
for less than the cost of a holiday in the frickin' Hamptons? It seems
so at this point.
So, what else did Team Lasombra specifically get out of Black Hand?
Two cards were given us, in addition to our 5 vamps. These are:
Tenebrous Form
Action Modifier
1 blood
[obt]: +1 stealth
[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to
attempt to block.
Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed
that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we?
Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't
really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block
you. What you should care about is getting your action through
unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways
to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as
opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket
of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle.
We also received:
Abyssal Hunter
Ally
2 pool
Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
strike, even if that strike is prevented.
I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my
haiku, the jury is still out on this one.
First, let's take a look at this chappie's name. Abyssal Hunter.
Promissory? Somewhat, yes. What you would reasonably expect from a guy
called the "Abyssal hunter" would be someone who can rush at stealth,
yes? Well, this demonic charlatan can't rush, and he can't do bugger
all at stealth.
He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is
there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to
be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's
half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two
actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a
War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead
allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per
turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts
to get mighty pricey.
In fact, more and more, Abyssal Hunter reminds me of a drunken mate at
the local pub.
Pros:
Good value [1 pool with a Charisma]
Nice to have on your side in a fight, especially when there's 6 of
him.
Can take a reasonable beating without peeing his panties [4 life,
nothing to be sneezed at]
Cons
Can't find his way to the pisser without a computer [no bleed]
A night out with 6 of him usually spells a sore bank account
[expensive, but not unavoidable upkeep]
Will abandon you for the first tart who flashes her bazoons at him.
[Usual Ally vulnerabilities to Far mastery, Entrancement, etc]
Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to
prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what
Ambrosius the Ferryman is for. All in all, he's a bit like a high
school girl - interesting enough to fiddle with, but I'm still not
sure if he'll be worth the hassle.
So, of our two cards, one is pretty much shite, and the other is a bit
of an unknown until he's seen some serious road trials. Not a bad
result. And again, we do have Baltimore Purge, so we should complain
at an ear splitting volume anyways.
All told, not a bad expansion for us. Banjoko and Henri open the door
to many a Black hand opportunity, Capitalist is a sure fire winner for
any Lasombra deck with even a hint of S/B, and the generic Sabbat
cards like Flaming Candle, Zillah's Tears and the new Communal Haven
all hold great promise.
Not a bad effort. Black Hand certainly wipes it's bottom with Anarchs,
no mistake.
noodleboy
Wes
"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote
>
> No toilet paper
> Fortunately I have an
> Abyssal Hunter
Can I have that card after you're done with it?
> because it's full of grotty licorice allsorts and copies of Alpha
> Flight #72.
Funny, I own that comic. Alpha Flight used to be great when Byrne was on
it. But then I am Canadian, so maybe I'm biased.
> Marcus Vitel ADV proved [in all ways, including the artwork] that he
> was far better off sticking to banging the secretary and insider
> trading over at Ventrue HQ.
Agreed. Not a big fan of the ADV version. The normal version is great
though.
> Tobias was a decent addition to a deck
> with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and
> Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of
> POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all
> wary-like].
Frankly, I play a lot of DOM/OBT/PRE decks and I never use Tobias in
them. His lack of votes really hurts. I'd much rather use Jessica and
lose out on DOM. Just the one vote alone has been worth more than
Tobias' special.
> Lucita ADV is easily the best thing to happen to Team
> Lasombra in years, her merged and regular abilities just adding to the
> devilry of that new red dress.
Is it really worth putting both versions in a crypt? Like many of the
advanced vampires, I would usually rather just have an extra vampire
instead. Lucita getting votes and a semi-useful ability isn't terrible,
but it doesn't seem like it would be worth it to me. But I haven't even
tried it yet, so maybe it's better than it seems to be.
> Not good either, but as I'm constantly reminded by my partners in VTES
> crime, we who received the joy that was Baltimore Purge should never
> complain too loudly.
Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised
when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan
or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets?
> However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary
> collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans
> at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion.
I have not found this to be a huge problem. Unlike a lot of clans, the
Lasombra have very effective fatties. They are all well worth their
cost. You just have to build the deck skewed towards fatter vampires,
and you're golden. I agree that they could use a few more small vampires
though. Apparently so do the designers.
> Hester Reed
> 3 cap pot obt
> Sabbat
>
> First cab off the rank in terms of cap, the lovely Hester gives a
> POT/OBT combat deck the weenie it needed to lead the charge. Sadly,
> we're still lacking anyone under 6 with POT to back her up, but I
> suppose that's too much to ask. Is she uber? Nay. But she can get the
> job done, clad in a top hat and skin tight black PVC to boot. Artwork
> by Rebecca Guay doesn't hurt her case either.
> 2.5 out of 5.
Sounds like some nice art, can't wait to see it.
She is also ideal for a Shadow Twin deck, an archetype that was kicked
in the teeth when they changed The Embrace (which still annoys me).
> Tabitha Fisk
> 4 cap obt pot pro
> Sabbat
>
> Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell
> anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as
> useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly
> ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet
> wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs.
> 1 out of 5.
I think you may be looking at this in the wrong way. As a Lasombra she
may bot be fantastic, I agree. But as a POT/PRO vampire, she's pretty
good. There is a younger vampire with this combination, but it's Rex...
who doesn't really count. But Tabitha can play Immortal Grapple + Claws
for a pretty nasty strike. There are 5 other POT/PRO vampires under 7
capacity, making POT/PRO a bit more viable as an off-discipline combo,
which is a good thing I think.
And like her sister above, she can also do the Shadow Twin mambo. Shadow
Twin decks pretty much have to be weenified to be successful, like the
very similar Cryptic Mission decks, but I'd be willing to pay 4 just for
her OBT in a deck such as that.
> Banjoko
> 5 cap DOM obt pot
> Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph.
>
> This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim
> with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to
> boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra,
> straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I
> predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every
> Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo!
> 4 out of 5.
How much are Black Hand and Seraph worth in "points" do you think? Seems
like this vampire would be worth 5 just for the disciplines alone.
Keep in mind that with inferior OBT he will not be much of a bleeder. He
will be paying 1 blood to bleed with Shadow Play, and *can't* bleed with
Shroud of Night. He could use Shroud of Absence or Blanket of Night, but
who owns any of those cards?
Still, to me this guy looks more like a 5 out of 5.
> Henri Lavenant Lasombra
> 7 cap DOM OBT pot qui
> Sabbat. Black Hand.
>
> Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know
> that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper.
I'm going to assume that this quaint Australian (?) expression is not
referring to eating a helicopter or motorcycle? :)
> Everything
> else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He
> could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to
> flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie.
> 3.5 out of 5.
OBT/QUI --> Let's see. Shadow Twin + Blood Clots might be allright.
That's about it though.
POT/QUI --> Use all those cool QUI hand strikes that nobody bothers with
like Dagon's Call
DOM/QUI --> Deflection, Conditioning, Mind Rape... oh wait those are all
just DOM :)
Again, I'm not sure what points Black Hand is worth, though I imagine a
consensus will develop eventually.
Although the "points" system would normally equate DOM, OBT and POT as
all being worth 2 points each, like the Giovanni, the Lasombra don't
tend to use a lot of Potence so what it comes down to is that DOM/OBT is
worth a lot more than DOM/POT or OBT/POT. Just for Lasombra sneak-bleed
alone, this vampire is pretty powerful.
> Nahir
> 10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha
> Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and
> pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter
> gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed.
>
> Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's
> penchant for diddling arabs,
???
Is this meant to be a reference to Camus?
> we're confronted with this car wreck of a
> vampire.
I suspect that her victims will look more like the car wreck actually.
> 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta
> useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But
> the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed
> to do with ANI?
I would much rather have ANI than a *lot* of disciplines. ANI combat is
not only effective as hell, it's also a lot of fun to play.
OBT/ANI --> Black Metamorphosis + Drawing Out the Beast + Carrion Crows
= Nastiness
DOM/ANI --> Fun, but probably not very effective.
POT/ANI --> See Nosferatu. Of course, you can get the combination with
them much cheaper.
Animalism alone gives a deck more options. Raven Spies, Owl Companion,
Tier of Souls. There are uses for Lasombra here, same as there would for
any clans who had ANI tacked on.
Funny how people don't even play Followers of Set unless they have DOM
tacked on (sigh) but tack ANI on a clan who already has DOM and people
complain :)
> Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's
> give her ANI instead.
Is FOR better than ANI? Depends what you use her for I guess.
> And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow
> goats, that's "why". And blow them she does.
> 1 out of 5.
Wow. I am disagreeing with you on almost everything so far :)
Though I suppose, technically speaking, that "blowing goats" would
indeed fall under the Animalism umbrella.
> Hell, I think most of us would settle for a 7 or 8 cap with OBT, DOM,
> POT.
It would be nice, but I'm perfectly happy with the existing Lasombras.
> Tenebrous Form
> Action Modifier
> 1 blood
> [obt]: +1 stealth
> [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to
> attempt to block.
>
> Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed
> that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we?
Hmm... this is the third sexual deviancy reference in this newsletter.
What would Freud say about a Sire's Index Finger I wonder?
> Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't
> really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block
> you.
Shadow Twin is futile??? Pre-Embrace, that type of deck won its share of
tournaments.
I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have*
to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive
well with Shadow Twin.
> What you should care about is getting your action through
> unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways
> to do it? Yes.
What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood? Blood is fuel
for vampires. Without blood, they start to become useless. They start to
become targets for Banishment (which the Lasombra excel at btw).
> So will this card see action in any of my decks, as
> opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket
> of Night? Nay, laddie.
But it is an *additional* stealth card. I've always found that I didn't
have enough choice in the OBT stealth cards. Of course I don't own any
Blankets and have only one Shroud of Absence. But I really think the
added stealth modifier is fantastic just as *another option*. That
no-repeat-action-modifier rule really hurts sometimes, you know?
> I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle.
This may be another sexual deviancy reference, I'm not really sure.
Isn't there an Australian newsgroup where you can all speak to each
other in your own language? :)
> Abyssal Hunter
> Ally
> 2 pool
> Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
> Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> strike, even if that strike is prevented.
>
> I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my
> haiku, the jury is still out on this one.
Looks pretty nasty to me. Yet another way of removing blood from
vampires (Gregory Winter, Ghouls of PM, etc), though this time he can
knock the vampires right into torpor. For 2 pool and a minorly
irritating flaw, that's pretty good in my books.
> What you would reasonably expect from a guy
> called the "Abyssal hunter" would be someone who can rush at stealth,
> yes?
Not sure that the name really matters all that much.
> Well, this demonic charlatan can't rush, and he can't do bugger
> all at stealth.
He has a different form of stealth though. The kind that says, "block me
and I punch you for 3". Have you never heard of "Potence stealth?" :)
> He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him.
Dunno about an army, but I can see maybe two or three.
> But is
> there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to
> be the yard stick of allies at this point?
Not really. Muddles is still nice. Amam is one of my faves. Gregory
Winter works well. Renegade Garou are powerhouses (albeit costly ones).
From the looks of this one, I'd say he's a mid-range ally.
> Well, yes, he can. He's
> half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two
> actions to recruit like War Ghoul does.
Which has never been that bad of a trade-off for a War Ghoul really...
> Is he worth paying 1 blood per
> turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts
> to get mighty pricey.
Use a 1 cap vampire in a hunting loop to pay for the cost maybe?
You're basically taking one damage each turn to cause one damage each
turn. Which doesn't look great, but if you build a deck around blood
gain for you and blood denial for your opponents, this starts to hurt
them. A lot.
> In fact, more and more, Abyssal Hunter reminds me of a drunken mate at
> the local pub.
Why, what does the picture show?
> Pros:
>
> Can take a reasonable beating without peeing his panties [4 life,
> nothing to be sneezed at]
Not to mention he hits for 3. He can survive a Trap while torporizing an
elder vampire. That's worth something right there. In fact, you could
use him *just* for this combo, so as to not worry so much about the
upkeep cost. He burns, so what. He only cost you 2 pool and maybe 1
damage.
> Cons
>
> Can't find his way to the pisser without a computer [no bleed]
Thanks for translating this one :)
> A night out with 6 of him usually spells a sore bank account
> [expensive, but not unavoidable upkeep]
Six of him would be way too much IMHO. This ally could not be played
like Shambling Hordes (another strong ally I forgot to mention above).
> Will abandon you for the first tart who flashes her bazoons at him.
> [Usual Ally vulnerabilities to Far mastery, Entrancement, etc]
That's not really a con to this card alone, but allies in general. But
this wouldn't always be a desirable ally to steal. It cost you 2 pool,
it costs them the damage upkeep, which their deck is probably not built
to maintain.
> Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to
> prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what
> Ambrosius the Ferryman is for.
Nice! That would work well enough.
BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't
mention that above.
> Not a bad effort. Black Hand certainly wipes it's bottom with Anarchs,
> no mistake.
Agreed.
Cheers,
WES
Smiling Tom
> > Nahir
> > 10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha
> > Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and
> > pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter
> > gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed.
> >
> > Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's
> > penchant for diddling arabs,
>
> ???
>
> Is this meant to be a reference to Camus?
>
> > we're confronted with this car wreck of a
> > vampire.
>
> I suspect that her victims will look more like the car wreck actually.
>
so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or
Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle
> > 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta
> > useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But
> > the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed
> > to do with ANI?
>
> I would much rather have ANI than a *lot* of disciplines. ANI combat is
> not only effective as hell, it's also a lot of fun to play.
>
> OBT/ANI --> Black Metamorphosis + Drawing Out the Beast + Carrion Crows
> = Nastiness
> DOM/ANI --> Fun, but probably not very effective.
> POT/ANI --> See Nosferatu. Of course, you can get the combination with
> them much cheaper.
Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT. Also, his
special is an invitation to build tooolbox decks: With a hand of 10, you can
allow yourself to keep 2/3 contingency cards in your hand. Still not sure
what to do with them, though. But DOM alone allows you to beam up the !nos,
something they ussually lack of, and deflections, so you don't need to rush
backwards from the first turn. I'm trying to build this deck by now, but I
have a problem around maneuvers. Should pack either close/long ranged
combat. Corporal reservoir/leather jacket/guardian angel for damage
prevention, too.
Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT THA.
We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do. Only for
the access to perfect clarity, it's worth.
<snipped>
> > Tenebrous Form
> > Action Modifier
> > 1 blood
> > [obt]: +1 stealth
> > [OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to
> > attempt to block.
> >
<snipped>
> I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have*
> to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive
> well with Shadow Twin.
>
Also, stack it over dominion (master for black hand) and sabbat priest.
That's a "burn 3 blood to ATTEMPT to block this action" combo. It's one of
the best ways to hose persistent blockers.
> > What you should care about is getting your action through
> > unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways
> > to do it? Yes.
>
> What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood? Blood is fuel
> for vampires. Without blood, they start to become useless. They start to
> become targets for Banishment (which the Lasombra excel at btw).
>
Completely agree. Pack some holds there, also. And slaughtering the herd,
too.
<snipped>
> > Abyssal Hunter
> > Ally
> > 2 pool
> > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
> > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> > strike, even if that strike is prevented.
> >
<snipped>
> > Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to
> > prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's what
> > Ambrosius the Ferryman is for.
>
> Nice! That would work well enough.
That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But I'm sure
hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship will be
really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow.
>
> BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't
> mention that above.
>
It requires Lasombra
Wes
"Smiling Tom" <t...@almadrava.net> wrote
>
> Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT
THA.
> We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do.
Only for
> the access to perfect clarity, it's worth.
Come to think of it, the [POT tha] is a combo people seem to like...
Blood Fury et al.
I've not seen anybody have a lot of success with that combo, but people
do seem to keep trying.
> > > Abyssal Hunter
> > > Ally
> > > 2 pool
> > > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> > > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action.
Abyssal
> > > Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap
phase.
> > > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged
aggravated
> > > strike, even if that strike is prevented.
> > >
> <snipped>
>
> > > Is he worth building a deck out of? Probably. Finding some way to
> > > prevent 6 damage a turn will be interesting, but I guess that's
what
> > > Ambrosius the Ferryman is for.
> >
> > Nice! That would work well enough.
>
> That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But
I'm sure
> hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship
will be
> really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow.
I was going by what was printed in this newsletter. I don't have access
to any cards yet. Does it actually say 'vampires' on the card? If so,
why does this say 'minions'? Dammit, I want my Black Hand cards Raille!
Give them to me! :)
> > BTW is Abyssal Hunter a Lasombra card or Obtenebration? You don't
> > mention that above.
> >
> It requires Lasombra
Not quite as good... I'd rather have it be an OBT card so other vamps
can use it, but whatever. Still a damn good card IMHO.
Cheers,
WES
Timlagor
> Tabitha Fisk
> 4 cap obt pot pro
> Sabbat
> useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly
Good for screwing the innocent?
> Abyssal Hunter
> Ally
> 2 pool
> Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
> Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> strike, even if that strike is prevented.
> He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is
> there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to
> be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's
> half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two
> actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a
> War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead
> allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per
> turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts
> to get mighty pricey.
Build an army. Put a weenie vamp in torpor. Do all the damage from your
army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended...
I just love the way you lambast everything and then conclude that BH is
good :)
Janne Hägglund
> Abyssal Hunter
> Ally
> 2 pool
> Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> Hunter *deals 1 damage to a minion you control* during your untap phase.
> Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> strike, even if that strike is prevented.
That text is incorrect. It should be: "During your untap phase, *a ready
vampire* you control takes 1 damage."
So you cannot use Ambrosius or a torporized vampire to support an army of
Abyssal Hunters.
(And it's "ranged aggravated *damage*", not "strike". So even enviromental
aggro at long range will burn him.)
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
vermillian
> We also received:
>
> Abyssal Hunter
> Ally
> 2 pool
> Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
> Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> strike, even if that strike is prevented.
> He's not unique, so conceivably you could build an army of him. But is
> there a point? Can this boy stack up tot the War Ghoul, who seems to
> be the yard stick of allies at this point? Well, yes, he can. He's
> half the price and then less some, because he doesn't cost you two
> actions to recruit like War Ghoul does. Two hunters could take out a
> War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead
> allies. A win? No. But not a bad start. Is he worth paying 1 blood per
> turn for? Hmm. Not sure about that one. Build an army, and he starts
> to get mighty pricey.
Well, notice that the hunter can ping himself for one... interesting,
and better if you consider the mystic for healing purposes... Silly
really. But perhaps slightly more effective... maybe...
~SV
Timlagor
> nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) writes:
>
> > Abyssal Hunter
> > Ally
> > 2 pool
> > Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
> > Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
> > Hunter *deals 1 damage to a minion you control* during your untap phase.
> > Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
> > strike, even if that strike is prevented.
>
>
> That text is incorrect. It should be: "During your untap phase, *a ready
> vampire* you control takes 1 damage."
Well that makes quite a difference.
> (And it's "ranged aggravated *damage*", not "strike". So even enviromental
> aggro at long range will burn him.)
Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself
or the range at which it was played?
Curevei
>5 cap DOM obt pot
>Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph.
>
>This boy rocks the bloody house, and no mistake. The lowest cap crim
>with DOM, free membership to the Hand clubhouse, and a Seraph title to
>boot. No useless out of clan bolt ons here folks, just pure Lasombra,
>straight down the line. With a sharp suit and artwork by Guay, I
>predict that this boy will become a cornerstone in almost every
>Lasombra deck from here to Neverland. Hoooooooo!
>4 out of 5.
I was expecting you to rate him higher given comments. Given your probable
scale, I'd concur with your 4. Normally, wouldn't bother mentioning this, but
there's controversy ahead where I find myself surprised that I agree with
someone.
>Nahir
>10 cap DOM OBT POT ANI tha
>Sabbat. While Nahir is ready you may take a master phase action and
>pay 1 pool to put a research counter on her. Each research counter
>gives +1 hand size. +1 bleed.
>
>Ah yes, just when we've finished scratching our heads about Henri's
>penchant for diddling arabs, we're confronted with this car wreck of a
>vampire. 10 points, no title, and a special which, while being sorta
>useful, makes the cost of one of Elton's wigs seem like tuppence. But
>the crowning turd in the waterpipe? ANI. What the hell are we supposed
>to do with ANI? Could it have been FOR? Noooo. Far too useful. Let's
>give her ANI instead. And why? I'll tell you "why". So she can blow
>goats, that's "why". And blow them she does.
>1 out of 5.
I have an Ani/Obt deck. It was quite amusing to realize which vampires combine
the disciplines and to think about how often you see them played. Tossed a
copy of Nahir in for a game last night and never got her, probably never will
as I'm getting fairly bored with the deck. Not that I think she fits all that
well as my next highest cap is 6.
Anyway, I was expecting hardly any criticism for her given how much I think
people overrate increased hand size and discipline combinations on fatties.
Except for the part about Animalism which hardly matters, you pretty much
addressed why I have so little regard for her.
>So, what else did Team Lasombra specifically get out of Black Hand?
>Two cards were given us, in addition to our 5 vamps. These are:
>
>Tenebrous Form
>Action Modifier
>1 blood
>[obt]: +1 stealth
>[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to
>attempt to block.
>
>Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed
>that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we?
>Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't
>really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block
>you. What you should care about is getting your action through
>unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways
>to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as
>opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket
>of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle.
I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a debate as to
whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect to go with
being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth.
>We also received:
>
>Abyssal Hunter
>Ally
>2 pool
>Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
>Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
>Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
>Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
>strike, even if that strike is prevented.
>
>I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my
>haiku, the jury is still out on this one.
The jury being out is also how I feel. I'm sure I'll try playing the obvious
Shadow Twin Hunter deck. Not clear on what else it's good for. Splash for
rush defense, unblockability defense, just being an annoying ally with some
toolbox elements?
noodleboy
> army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended...
Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I wrote
the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready?
Zounds, man!
> I just love the way you lambast everything and then conclude that BH is
> good :)
Didn't lambast everything. Banjoko got two thumbs up. :)
Specifically, I don't think the Lasombra made out like bandits from
Black hand. Two pretty good vamps is about all they got in a Clan
sense. But the other generic Sabbat cards in the set gave Sabbat as a
whole a nice boost, which the Lasombra benefit from. And Banjoko
really is tits.
noodleboy
Timlagor
> > Build an army. Put a weenie vamp in torpor. Do all the damage from your
> > army to the weenie in torpor. Wonder if this was intended...
>
> Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I wrote
> the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready?
> Zounds, man!
Apparently not. I was going from your card text which I assumed to be
accurate. The actual text says "ready vampire" so he can't take the dmg
either. The only way round it is not to have any ready vamps :)
noodleboy
You won't want it. I had spicy chicken for lunch.
> Funny, I own that comic. Alpha Flight used to be great when Byrne was on
> it. But then I am Canadian, so maybe I'm biased.
That was the first comic I ever owned. Got it in a grab bag at a local
carnival. Became an addict after that. But I still ended up owning
about 7 copies of it, for some weird reason, eh? :)
> Agreed. Not a big fan of the ADV version. The normal version is great
> though.
> Frankly, I play a lot of DOM/OBT/PRE decks and I never use Tobias in
> them. His lack of votes really hurts. I'd much rather use Jessica and
> lose out on DOM. Just the one vote alone has been worth more than
> Tobias' special.
Yeah, Tobias is a bit of a tool. Hopefully Henri flushing his head
down the bog will knock some sense into him.
> Is it really worth putting both versions in a crypt? Like many of the
> advanced vampires, I would usually rather just have an extra vampire
> instead. Lucita getting votes and a semi-useful ability isn't terrible,
> but it doesn't seem like it would be worth it to me. But I haven't even
> tried it yet, so maybe it's better than it seems to be.
She's worth it. Her dual specials working in tandem make her truly
frightening. She works very well in a crypt with her daddy and Marcus
[during his insider trading days].
> Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised
> when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan
> or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets?
While Aaron Duggan is undisputedly the most powerful Lasombra to walk
the face of this earth, he's not much good to Purge with. Has to be a
younger vamp. He's good to haul Ambrosio's fat arse out of torpor with
though. :)
> I have not found this to be a huge problem. Unlike a lot of clans, the
> Lasombra have very effective fatties. They are all well worth their
> cost. You just have to build the deck skewed towards fatter vampires,
> and you're golden. I agree that they could use a few more small vampires
> though. Apparently so do the designers.
Point is that most good lasombra decks are built around the fatties.
They don't have the minions to build a good, mid pointer deck. Limits
strategy, because every deck has to have bloat/taps to pay for the
vamps.
> How much are Black Hand and Seraph worth in "points" do you think? Seems
> like this vampire would be worth 5 just for the disciplines alone.
Black Hand and Seraph seem to be free. As you say, Banjoko is a 5
pointer on disciplines alone. The Godmother is another example. She
has 7 points of disciplines, AND a great special, AND she's a Seraph.
> Keep in mind that with inferior OBT he will not be much of a bleeder. He
> will be paying 1 blood to bleed with Shadow Play, and *can't* bleed with
> Shroud of Night. He could use Shroud of Absence or Blanket of Night, but
> who owns any of those cards?
[holds up hand] :)
> I'm going to assume that this quaint Australian (?) expression is not
> referring to eating a helicopter or motorcycle? :)
Australian, yeah. But i think "chopper" is an English expression. And
no, it bears no resemblance to a helicopter unless I get really drunk.
> OBT/QUI --> Let's see. Shadow Twin + Blood Clots might be allright.
> That's about it though.
> POT/QUI --> Use all those cool QUI hand strikes that nobody bothers with
> like Dagon's Call
Nobody bothers with them for a reason, matey. :) And yes, while I
agree that you might be able to build a semi-useful deck out of that
combo [if you can find the other minions with the right disciplines]
it's not going to be that useful 95% of the time.
> ???
>
> Is this meant to be a reference to Camus?
No, it a ref to henri's quietus, and what he did to get taught it. :)
> Animalism alone gives a deck more options. Raven Spies, Owl Companion,
> Tier of Souls. There are uses for Lasombra here, same as there would for
> any clans who had ANI tacked on.
How many other lasombra have ani? Don't have my ELDB here, but from
memory, it's only one or two. At most. Should lasombra players bother
faffing about with an ANI bolt-on just to entertain this joker's
presence in a crypt?
Personally, i wouldn't use this fraud to line my budgie cage. Despite
the great artwork.
> Is FOR better than ANI? Depends what you use her for I guess.
Lucita, Aurora, Ambrosio and Marcus all have FOR or for. FOR bolt ons
to Lasombra are already reasonably common, because the vampires exist
to make the option viable. But yes, it does depend on what you use her
for.
> Wow. I am disagreeing with you on almost everything so far :)
That's cool. Can't make everyone happy.
> Shadow Twin is futile??? Pre-Embrace, that type of deck won its share of
> tournaments.
But we AREN'T pre-embrace deflowering. So, Shadow Twin IS futile.
> I don't really like the pay 1 blood to block thing (not when we *have*
> to pay a blood, sans Path), but it does seem like this card would jive
> well with Shadow Twin.
Indeed. They are both jiving together in my box of "cards to be burned
when society collapses and we need fuel for fire" box right now, along
with Teresa Rotas and "Liberty Club Intrigue".
> What if your intention is to lower your opponent's blood?
Then you should probably stop faffing about with Team Lasombra and go
play a Tremere Cryptic Mission/Theft of Vitae/gregory Winter type
deck, which will serve you much better. :)
> But it is an *additional* stealth card. I've always found that I didn't
> have enough choice in the OBT stealth cards. Of course I don't own any
> Blankets and have only one Shroud of Absence. But I really think the
> added stealth modifier is fantastic just as *another option*. That
> no-repeat-action-modifier rule really hurts sometimes, you know?
yeah, maybe I AM spoiled because i've managed to pick a few Blankets
and Shrouds here and there.
> This may be another sexual deviancy reference, I'm not really sure.
> Isn't there an Australian newsgroup where you can all speak to each
> other in your own language? :)
It's a Simpsons ref. Groundskeeper Willy is one of the greatest sages
of our time.
> Looks pretty nasty to me. Yet another way of removing blood from
> vampires (Gregory Winter, Ghouls of PM, etc), though this time he can
> knock the vampires right into torpor. For 2 pool and a minorly
> irritating flaw, that's pretty good in my books.
Not minorly irritating. Costly. Particularly when there's a few of
him. But, Timlagor may have discovered the loophole that catapulted
this chappie into greatness. Big props to him.
> Why, what does the picture show?
A shadowy thing moving towards some vampire, who looks like he's made
a boo boo in his panties.
> Not to mention he hits for 3. He can survive a Trap while torporizing an
> elder vampire. That's worth something right there. In fact, you could
> use him *just* for this combo, so as to not worry so much about the
> upkeep cost. He burns, so what. He only cost you 2 pool and maybe 1
> damage.
Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which
means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is
cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro".
> Thanks for translating this one :)
No worries. :)
> Six of him would be way too much IMHO. This ally could not be played
> like Shambling Hordes (another strong ally I forgot to mention above).
I think he can be. I think one or two of him isn't worth it. I'd much
rather throw in another couple of Entombments if I want to torpor a
couple of vamps and pay 4 pool and some blood for the privilege. He
would seem to me to work best en masse.
> Nice! That would work well enough.
Apparently not. Damages vamps not minions. Must have misread it.
Problem with not having the card in front of you while you bag it. :)
noodleboy
noodleboy
> so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or
> Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle
She doesn't have an incredible special in my opinion. She has a
special that you'd maybe use twice in a game, that costs you 2 pool
each time you do [opportunity cost of playing an Ascendence included]
and you could pretty easily duplicate with an Elder Library and
Chronicle of the Lost Tribe.
Increased handsize is a crutch.
> Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT.
And why would you do this?
> Also, forget ANI for a moment. It's just ANOTHER vamp with DOM OBT THA.
> We've all seen what ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena are able to do. Only for
> the access to perfect clarity, it's worth.
10 pool for access to an inferior perfect clarity? As you've pointed
out, ayelea, kij, antonio and Elena can already do it. Don't forget
Ian too. Do we need another 10 point addition to this one-trick-pony
line up?
> That won't work. Abyssal hunters damages VAMPIRES, not minions. But I'm sure
> hungry coyote/life in the city/hunting ground(s)/Chalice of kinship will be
> really usefull to pay the upkeed. Or play ex-nihilo somehow.
Ex-Nihilo was my next thought. Although it seems that there's a better
way, at least until an errata comes out.
noodleboy
salem
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged.
what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what
other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer
with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot....
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
salem
>>Tenebrous Form
>>Action Modifier
>>1 blood
>>[obt]: +1 stealth
>>[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood to
>>attempt to block.
>>
>>Oh wow, another Obten stealth card that costs blood. Gee, we needed
>>that like Jacko needed another child molestation charge, didn't we?
>>Unless you buy into the futility that is Shadow Twin, you shouldn't
>>really give a toss that your opponents are paying a Blood to block
>>you. What you should care about is getting your action through
>>unblocked. Does this card help do that? Yes. But are there better ways
>>to do it? Yes. So will this card see action in any of my decks, as
>>opposed to Shadow Play, Shroud of Night, Shroud of Absence and Blanket
>>of Night? Nay, laddie. I wouldn't bury mah turtle in that mud puddle.
>
>I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a debate as to
>whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect to go with
>being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth.
I think it's good to play as your _first_ stealth card. Then they burn
a blood, then you play Shadow Play and your action gets through
anyway. Yay!
>>We also received:
>>
>>Abyssal Hunter
>>Ally
>>2 pool
>>Demon. 4 life. 3 strength. 0 bleed.
>>Abyssal Hunter may deal 1 damage to a minion as a (D) action. Abyssal
>>Hunter deals 1 damage to a minion you control during your untap phase.
>>Abyssal Hunter is burned if it takes damage from a ranged aggravated
>>strike, even if that strike is prevented.
>>
>>I had high hopes for this boy. Was I disappointed? Well, despite my
>>haiku, the jury is still out on this one.
>
>The jury being out is also how I feel. I'm sure I'll try playing the obvious
>Shadow Twin Hunter deck. Not clear on what else it's good for. Splash for
>rush defense, unblockability defense, just being an annoying ally with some
>toolbox elements?
It's, like, totally just _cool_. He seems mighty mean to me. If i saw
a War Ghoul at the other end of a dark alley i'd think 'woah, ugly
freak. lucky it won't fit down here'. if i saw Abyssal Hunter,
however, i'd be needing new undies and running like a very scared
running person.
Chris Arthur
> War Ghoul, one after the other, with an end result of three dead
> allies.
You would need three Hunters. War Ghoul prevents one per round.
Chris.
salem
scrawled:
>> Not specificallty Lasombra, but pretty much so. I'm always surprised
>> when I see non-Lasombra BP decks that don't throw in a token Aaron Dugan
>> or Cameron. Why Purge if you can't name the targets?
>
>While Aaron Duggan is undisputedly the most powerful Lasombra to walk
>the face of this earth, he's not much good to Purge with. Has to be a
>younger vamp. He's good to haul Ambrosio's fat arse out of torpor with
>though. :)
"If you control a ready Lasombra, you choose the vampires instead."
Aaron doesn't do the Purge, some fatty does. Then, merely because you
control Aaron, you get to choose the Purged Ones.
Although maybe the Melbourne scene will lynch me for pointing that
out, as i seem to recall you already have caused some havoc with
BPs...and thus probably own quite a few BPs to abuse....
Wes
"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote
> >
> > Don't have the card in front of me. Was going from memory when I
wrote
> > the text. Can you really do the damage to a vamp that isn't ready?
> > Zounds, man!
>
> Apparently not. I was going from your card text which I assumed to be
> accurate. The actual text says "ready vampire" so he can't take the
dmg
> either. The only way round it is not to have any ready vamps :)
Lasombra, all of us very much appreciate the efforts you have been
making to archive these newsletters. Given mistakes like this though, do
you think it would be reasonable to wait for an edited version before
posting them on your site? Just a thought.
Not intended as a black mark against you, Noodleboy. Simple mistake to
make.
In fact, I've been thinking of going over all of my old newsletters and
editing them to reflect changes to the game (Majesty costing 1 blood
etc).
Cheers,
WES
Wes
"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote
>
> Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which
> means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is
> cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro".
Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma, Harrass with the Abyssal Hunter,
Trap. AH burns, Possess him back out or buy another. Treat them as
disposable. If they burn, you're not paying for upkeep.
> Apparently not. Damages vamps not minions. Must have misread it.
> Problem with not having the card in front of you while you bag it. :)
Yeah, that seemed to throw everyone off heheh.
Cheers,
WES
Timlagor
> >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself
> >or the range at which it was played?
>
> It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged.
On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage?
> what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what
> other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer
> with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot....
How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at
that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or
maneuver afterwards? (presumably not)
Timlagor
> > I can't believe this. This vamp has an incredible special. She had no votes,
> > so what? now you could have a motive to pack either cardinal benedictions or
> > Regent on your deck, depending upon you go for the vote or combat angle
>
> She doesn't have an incredible special in my opinion. She has a
> special that you'd maybe use twice in a game, that costs you 2 pool
> each time you do [opportunity cost of playing an Ascendence included]
I think "the opportunity cost of not playing Ascendence" is the correct
way of saying what I think you meant to say... is that right someone
(I'm a bi confused)? The opportunity cost of Ascendance includes 1
Library Card Slot and having to draw it.
> and you could pretty easily duplicate with an Elder Library and
> Chronicle of the Lost Tribe.
Card Slots again.
> Increased handsize is a crutch.
Absolutely true. However it may be the crutch that makes your deck
viable. It's also a crutch that will help a lot if you get a bad draw.
The extra hand size immediately could get you your poolgain a turn
earlier/before the M-Phase rather than after/before you tap your
minions/...
It's definitely a good special -though not really one to build around
which could be a problem for such a large vamp.
salem
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
>(I'm a bi confused)?
heh. ;)
salem
scrawled:
>
>"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote
>>
>> Playing traps would indicate you've built a deck around him, which
>> means you'd probably like to keep him alive. And yeah, 2 pool is
>> cheap, 1 with Charisma is even cheaper. hence, his price is a "pro".
>
>Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma,
...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to:
>Harrass with the Abyssal Hunter,
>Trap. AH burns, Possess him back out or buy another. Treat them as
>disposable. If they burn, you're not paying for upkeep.
You have to take the 1 untap phase damage at least once, unless you
have no ready vampires, or get the Abyssal hunter killed in a
block-combat or somesuch.
why do people keep using magic-derived terms, here? Mill Decks,
Upkeep...when will that other game's evil influence end?
although, funnily enough, i was opening boosters and the pile i was
putting all the wrappers on i called the ash heap, without even
thinking about it....
salem
<Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
>salem expounded:
>> >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself
>> >or the range at which it was played?
>>
>> It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged.
>
>On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage?
from Casino Reed's text:
"Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at close range)."
Text in parentheses has tended to be reminder text. So i take it that
ranged damage counts, regardless of the actual range of the round.
>> what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows, what
>> other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer
>> with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a lot....
>
>How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at
>that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or
>maneuver afterwards? (presumably not)
Weather control isn't ranged damage. It has no R, and there is no such
thing as range at that point in the round anyway..... :)
Wes
"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote
> >
> >Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma,
>
> ...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to:
Yes, I realize this. Maybe I didn't phrase that right.
Even if you do take 1 damage (which as noted, can be applied to the ally
himself) it is not such a huge cost to burn them the turn after they
come out in a rush. Effectively the cost would be 1 pool and 1 blood. I
think I can afford that cost most of the time.
> why do people keep using magic-derived terms, here? Mill Decks,
> Upkeep...when will that other game's evil influence end?
I don't really have a lot of experience with Magic. Maybe five or six
games total in my life. "Milling" is just a term I hear other people
using for Slaughterhouse and its ilk. Upkeep is just a logical name for
a cost of this sort, isn't it? They're just shorthand expressions...
> although, funnily enough, i was opening boosters and the pile i was
> putting all the wrappers on i called the ash heap, without even
> thinking about it....
Not with a real fire I hope? :)
Cheers,
WES
Joshua Duffin
"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a27f7772...@news.freeserve.com...
> salem expounded:
[re Abyssal Hunter's ranged aggravated damage disadvantage]
> > what i want to know is, other than, say, Dawn Op/Murder of Crows,
what
> > other ranged envorinmental agg damage is there? Oh, Ghoul Retainer
> > with Flamer Thrower/Ivory Bow i guess. ok, there's probably a
lot....
>
> How about Dawn Op + Weather Control? Range hasn't been determined at
> that point... does it matter if you set range first (OBT THA FOR ;) or
> maneuver afterwards? (presumably not)
On the one hand it's not really ranged damage since as you say range is
neither close nor short at that point, and on the other, Dawn Operation
only affects damage done to *vampires*. :-)
In general I think you're safe looking for the word "ranged" on the card
or "R" on the amount of damage. LSJ?
Josh
home home on the range
where the deer and the abyssal hunters play
Joshua Duffin
"salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jeoqrvsfe1lj02mij...@4ax.com...
> On 20 Nov 2003 19:54:44 GMT, cur...@aol.commetal (Curevei) scrawled:
>
> >>Tenebrous Form
> >>Action Modifier
> >>1 blood
> >>[obt]: +1 stealth
> >>[OBT]: As above, and minions without Obtenebration must pay 1 blood
to
> >>attempt to block.
> >I think it will see plenty of action. I've already gotten into a
debate as to
> >whether it's good or great. It has a pseudostealth deterrent effect
to go with
> >being the usual pay 1 blood for 1 stealth on any action Obt stealth.
>
> I think it's good to play as your _first_ stealth card. Then they burn
> a blood, then you play Shadow Play and your action gets through
> anyway. Yay!
Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it.
Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you
play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their
block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they
still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are
still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm?
Josh
what's not to like about being able to get to +7 stealth instead of +6?
or 5 without using ultrarares instead of 4?
or benefiting from path of night unlike stone travel?
;-)
Timlagor
>
> "salem" <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote
> > >
> > >Not necessarily. Pay 1 with Charisma,
> >
> > ...then take 1 damage in your untap phase before you get a chance to:
>
> Yes, I realize this. Maybe I didn't phrase that right.
>
> Even if you do take 1 damage (which as noted, can be applied to the ally
> himself) it is not such a huge cost to burn them the turn after they
IT HAS TO BE A READY VAMPIRE (that takes the dmg)
That was another mistake arising form the mistaken text in the original
post. (sorry for the shouting -hope everyone heard this time ;)
Timlagor
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 10:21:20 -0000, Timlagor
> <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> scrawled:
>
> >salem expounded:
> >> >Does a Walk of Flame at close range qualify? ie. is it the strike itself
> >> >or the range at which it was played?
> >>
> >> It's got an R, and is therefore Ranged.
> >
> >On the misquoted "ranged strike" it probably qualifies; ranged damage?
>
> from Casino Reed's text:
> "Casino inflicts +1 damage with ranged strikes (even at close range)."
Didn't know that...
> Text in parentheses has tended to be reminder text. So i take it that
> ranged damage counts, regardless of the actual range of the round.
note however that in this case the correct text is "ranged (aggravated)
damage" rather than "ranged *strike*".
John Flournoy
> > Or teaming up with some of those !nos that pack DOM ANI POT.
>
> And why would you do this?
>
> noodleboy
More importantly, what are 'those' apparently-multiple !nos packing
DOM ANI POT that are being fantasized about? Julio has that discipline
spread, and that's it. Cailean and Tarbaby Jack both have dom ANI POT,
for what little it's worth, and that's it for dominate-!Nos, even
those without ANI POT added.
-John Flournoy
Timlagor
> Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it.
> Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you
> play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their
> block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they
> still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are
> still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm?
The card implies to me that blockers can decide to stop trying to block
when you play your TF and that in that case they don't have to burn a
blood.
LSJ
> Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it.
> Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if you
> play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if their
> block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth, they
> still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they are
> still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm?
No.
They don't burn a blood for attempting to block; they burn a blood to
attempt to block.
The would-be blocker (the only currently attempting to block) simply
resigns his attempt once the TF is played if he doesn't want to pay
the blood to make the attempt.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Joshua Duffin
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3FBE6389...@white-wolf.com...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:
> > Works just as well as your last stealth card if you still need it.
> > Better as your first one if you're never going to get to play it if
you
> > play another first, yeah. But what I'm trying to say is, even if
their
> > block is going to fail after you add the Tenebrous Form stealth,
they
> > still have to burn the blood for attempting to block, because they
are
> > still attempting to block when you play the card. LSJ, confirm?
>
> No.
>
> They don't burn a blood for attempting to block; they burn a blood to
> attempt to block.
>
> The would-be blocker (the only currently attempting to block) simply
> resigns his attempt once the TF is played if he doesn't want to pay
> the blood to make the attempt.
You would think I would remember this from the Giotto Verducci/Mask of
1000 Faces question some time ago.
Obviously my intuition has failed to be updated. :-)
Josh
to sleep, perchance "to" block
SABR2TH
Right now, the cheapest are 7 caps. In my opinion, that's rather
pricy for 2 superior in-clan disciplines.
The Lasombra
wrote:
>Lasombra, all of us very much appreciate the efforts you have been
>making to archive these newsletters. Given mistakes like this though, do
>you think it would be reasonable to wait for an edited version before
>posting them on your site? Just a thought.
There is always the option for the author to mail me the correct
version of the newsletter.
I don't intend to archive un official newsletters.
If you can't be bothered to check your facts, I don't need to bother
to pay to archive.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Cameron
> Tobias was a decent addition to a deck
> with a PRE bolt on, but his ability to hang with Francisco, Marcus and
> Ambrosio without looking the tosser didn't excuse his woeful lack of
> POT, nor his virtually useless "special" [and I use the word all
> wary-like].
did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first
cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn? Who uses
pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't
needed. out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is
nothing to be sneazed at. So stop.
> However, Team Lasombra's weak spot has always been our rather ordinary
> collection of minions. With no-one below a 9 cap with all 3 in-clans
> at superior, my personal hopes were high for this expansion. So, let's
> take a gander at the latest lads and lassies to join our band of
> smooth criminals:
>
> Sadly, we're followed by:
>
> Tabitha Fisk
> 4 cap obt pot pro
> Sabbat
>
> Unless we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra [and why the hell
> anyone would bother has always been beyond me], this gal is about as
> useful as testes on the padre. Shite artwork rounds off a thoroughly
> ordinary package, which will probably see many a public toilet
> wallpapered with Ms Fisk and her Shirley Temple bangs.
> 1 out of 5.
bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp
to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin
of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start.
Lisette POT/pro
Ilse POT/pro
Henry T POT/pro
Tabitha pot/pro
looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won
tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse
> Henri Lavenant Lasombra
> 7 cap DOM OBT pot qui
> Sabbat. Black Hand.
>
> Quietus. Yes, you heard me. QUIETUS. I would ask "why?" but I know
> that's about as futile as trying to gobble my own chopper. Everything
> else about this lad smacks of greatness. DOM. OBT. Hand membership. He
> could have been a true contender. Let's face it, he still manages to
> flush Tobias' head down the bog. But QUIETUS?! Put it away, frenchie.
> 3.5 out of 5.
a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we
didn't even have a 7 cap. There are now 3 vamps with this discipline
combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've
got quite the bleed deck going. Alternativly you can just target them
with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes. And the qui/DOM is nice
with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle.
Wes
"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> There is always the option for the author to mail me the correct
> version of the newsletter.
Cool. If I ever get around to editing old material, I will send them on to
you.
I should probably also include the answers/winners to my recent quizzes, for
posterity.
> I don't intend to archive un official newsletters.
What is the difference ultimately between the official and unofficial
newsletters though?
All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to email...
Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If
Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to make this
particular newsletter official?
It's ok though. I don't mean to criticize your efforts. I'm very impressed
by the level of support you provide this game already. Thank you for not
quitting.
> If you can't be bothered to check your facts, I don't need to bother
> to pay to archive.
Fair enough.
I should have a passable newsletter for the December Followers of Set.
(Wow! The Lasombra haven't had an official newsletter since June 1999.
There's so much to write about for this clan too... Maybe I'll switch my
clan focus again if Noodleboy doesn't want to be officialized :)
Cheers,
WES
The Lasombra
wrote:
>All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to email...
>Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If
>Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to make this
>particular newsletter official?
No.
He would also have to fix the incorrect card text.
I have no interest in paying to archive incorrect information.
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
AL
>
> bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp
> to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin
> of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start.
>
> Lisette POT/pro
> Ilse POT/pro
> Henry T POT/pro
> Tabitha pot/pro
>
Soldat POT PRO
Quite big as he is a 7-cap, but he shares Dominate with Lisette, so a
few Deflections/Conditionings could be added. Cameron and, say,
Marciana Giovanni could round the crypt. Hmmm...
-Antero
noodleboy
> way of saying what I think you meant to say... is that right someone
> (I'm a bi confused)? The opportunity cost of Ascendance includes 1
> Library Card Slot and having to draw it.
This is true, yes. The payoff is that you gain a pool.
> It's definitely a good special -though not really one to build around
> which could be a problem for such a large vamp.
Indeed. Hence the 1 out of 5 and accusations of goat blowing. :)
noodleboy
noodleboy
> control Aaron, you get to choose the Purged Ones.
Ah yes. I misunderstood and though we were talking about Aaron
actually doing the purging, rather than standing over Stani's
shoulder, pointing and syaing "Hmmm...that one!" Apols for that.
> Although maybe the Melbourne scene will lynch me for pointing that
> out, as i seem to recall you already have caused some havoc with
> BPs...and thus probably own quite a few BPs to abuse....
Indeed. Won the Adelaide qualifier with a BP deck. But i did that
straight lasombra style. Don't worry - they'll lynch me for playing it
before they lynch anyone else for giving me tips on how to play it
better. :)
noodleboy
noodleboy
> cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn?
"implied game text"? What?
Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's
name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"?
> Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't
> needed.
You're not making sense.
However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is.
>out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is
> nothing to be sneazed at. So stop.
Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now.
AAACHOOOOOO!!!
> bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp
> to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin
> of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start.
> Lisette POT/pro
> Ilse POT/pro
> Henry T POT/pro
> Tabitha pot/pro
More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus,
Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra
POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless
we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires
are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra
viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all
[albeit an unofficial one]
> looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won
> tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse
If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with
Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a
lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would
you do it? For the DOM?
> a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we
> didn't even have a 7 cap.
Irrelevant.
> There are now 3 vamps with this discipline
> combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've
> got quite the bleed deck going.
Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly?
> Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes.
Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer.
I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a
waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45
degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far
better.
> And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle.
Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck.
Square Peg + Round Hole = GG
noodleboy
Joshua Duffin
"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:kbhtrvc0ou9akj6kt...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 19:39:55 -0500, "Wes" <gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net>
> wrote:
>
> >All it would really require to be "deputized" is for someone to
email...
> >Peter Bakija I think (?) asking if they can become the new editor. If
> >Noodleboy were to do so now ex post facto, would that be enough to
make this
> >particular newsletter official?
>
> No.
>
> He would also have to fix the incorrect card text.
>
> I have no interest in paying to archive incorrect information.
Reasonable enough, but surely there must be a whole bunch of older clan
newsletters that now incorporate incorrect information due to card text
changes over the years? After a while, most clan newsletters are
historical documents in a sense, in that they're based on both a
particular metagame in time and place and a particular set of card texts
that aren't necessarily static over the years.
This is just kind of a random comment, though, really, since it's very
true that even taking the above into account, there's no need to go and
accept card texts that are incorrect from the very start. :-)
Josh
needs to move up to at least pseudo-random comments
Cameron
> > did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first
> > cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn?
>
> "implied game text"? What?
Some vamps by the nature of their disciplines and capacities seem to
be made for specific purposes... Koko's is "kill, kill, kill." Sandra
White's is "eat something"
> Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's
> name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"?
I'll go slow.
He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he
has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to
get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop.
Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5
point, because it's cornercase.)
He is a large enough, untitled lasombra to be targeted by a Cardinal
Benediction. (The first Lasombra this applied to.) In addition, in a
clan that votes quite a bit (The other 6 Sabbat Vamps above 6cap have
titles) he gets PRE (like two of them, and several !Bru who have obt)
which is (I've been given to understand) good for vote decks.
Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah!
LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works
well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in
the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me"....
> > Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't
> > needed.
>
> You're not making sense.
In a voted deck with OBT stealth, like he works in, you MIGHT use pot
to toss agate and run away to long. pot is enough for that purpose.
Or you might use the OBT card that does the same damn thing.
> However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is.
see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a
situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd
discipline, which makes sense. They're the only clan with OBT, so
they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps,
so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So
that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and
OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT
combat. And Stealth isn't needed in a deck that likes to fight. So
PRE seems to make a lot of sense to me.
> >out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is
> > nothing to be sneazed at. So stop.
>
> Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now.
>
> AAACHOOOOOO!!!
Bless you.
> > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp
> > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin
> > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start.
> > Lisette POT/pro
> > Ilse POT/pro
> > Henry T POT/pro
> > Tabitha pot/pro
>
> More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus,
> Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra
> POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless
> we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires
> are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra
> viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all
> [albeit an unofficial one]
size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So
another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some
clan cards can be used in it.
I didn't forget Polonia, but I don't use him in the deck, a 10 cap is
to big. For the same reason I don't use any of the new or old gangrel
with POT/PRO. They cost to much.
As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra,
you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan. And all
you do is complain about the out of clans. A good use of newsletters
is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under
costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead
of whining that POT isn't on all of them.
> > looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won
> > tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse
>
> If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with
> Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a
> lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would
> you do it? For the DOM?
see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a
size useable in a combat deck.
> > a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we
> > didn't even have a 7 cap.
>
> Irrelevant.
Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of
the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size
was made into a voter.
> > There are now 3 vamps with this discipline
> > combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've
> > got quite the bleed deck going.
>
> Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly?
And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that.
It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with
superior, and there would be one without it at all.
> > Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes.
>
> Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer.
> I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a
> waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45
> degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far
> better.
Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps
(6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter
jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you
use this miserable collection of POT to some effect?
> > And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle.
>
> Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck.
>
> Square Peg + Round Hole = GG
or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a
possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it.
now to go make an OBT/qui combat deck. Sounds like fun.
Cameron
Joshua Duffin
"Cameron" <orcao...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a1e26d99.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's
> > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"?
>
> I'll go slow.
>
> He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he
> has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to
> get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop.
> Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5
> point, because it's cornercase.)
To nitpick, according to the current standard points scheme, he's
overcosted by 0.5 point or so. (I still think he's a very strong
vampire, because he has 6 points of disciplines that are extremely
useful together (DOM OBT PRE), where others (say, Dominique, with AUS
FOR ani dom vic) have much less synergy.)
point scheme:
1-4 capacity = 1 less point than capacity
5-6 capacity = points equal to capacity
7-8 capacity = 1 point more than capacity
9-10 capacity = 2 points more than capacity
11 capacity = probably 2-3 points more than capacity (hardly any of
these vampires have been created by the current designers)
Obviously the actual printed vampires we get - even from the current
design team - don't always match this exactly. Despite what obsessive
people like me might prefer, the point values are only guidelines and
can be overridden by "a priori" balance issues (eg DOM OBF might result
in a vampire having less points than it "should" where QUI OBF might
not). :-)
Josh
compulsory obsession
(for men?)
XZealot
> > did you miss the implied game text, target Tobias with your first
> > cardinal benediction after you GtU to get him in one turn?
>
> "implied game text"? What?
>
> Yes, he's a 7 pointer. Yes, he can become a cardinal. What in god's
> name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"?
>
> > Who uses pot is enough to run away from combat, and POT on a 7 cap isn't
> > needed.
>
> You're not making sense.
>
> However, I would say POT is needed on a Lasombra far more than PRE is.
Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni. PRE with Lasombra
is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters
in the clan.
> >out of clan PRE on a 7 cap that screams "VOTE WITH ME" is
> > nothing to be sneazed at. So stop.
>
> Oh, I sneeze. How I sneeze. Watch me now.
>
> AAACHOOOOOO!!!
Bless you.
> > bolting on PRO? 3 vamps now have it. And Tabitha is the perfect vamp
> > to fit into a POT/pro combat deck. Why would you do that? umm... skin
> > of marble then 7 Agg damage is a good start.
> > Lisette POT/pro
> > Ilse POT/pro
> > Henry T POT/pro
> > Tabitha pot/pro
>
> More than these three vamps have it. You're forgetting Karsh, Torvus,
> Jalan, Soldat, etc. You even forgot Francisco, king of the lasombra
> POT/pro squad. But take a deep breath and read what I wrote. "Unless
> we start bolting on PRO to Team Lasombra....". None of these vampires
> are Lasombra except Lisette. I'm talking about Ms Fisk from a lasombra
> viewpoint here, being that this is a lasombra newsletter and all
> [albeit an unofficial one]
I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge
followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually
it sounds like a really good deck.
> > looks like the core of a crypt to me. And why bother...? it's won
> > tournements already with just Lisette and Ilse
>
> If you're going to POT/PRO combat, you can do it much better with
> Gangrel and !Gangrel. Why you would bother to bolt on PRO to a
> lasombra deck is still beyond me, despite your assertations. Why would
> you do it? For the DOM?
DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a
bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM).
> > a SECOND 7 - cap LASOMBRA with DOM/OBT when two expansions ago we
> > didn't even have a 7 cap.
>
> Irrelevant.
You know 7 is a lucky number
> > There are now 3 vamps with this discipline
> > combo and capacity Toss in Gratiano to govern them out, and you've
> > got quite the bleed deck going.
>
> Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly?
Wait for the grand finale!
> > Alternativly you can just target them with Cardinal Bene and have 12 table votes.
>
> Again with the CBs. I'm not disputing the fact that he's a 7 pointer.
> I'm saying the inclusion of a qui symbol in his discipline spread is a
> waste of ink, and that the simple process of turning his pot symbol 45
> degrees to make it POT would have served Lasombra decks far, far
> better.
>
> > And the qui/DOM is nice with Thetmes. If you want to work in that angle.
>
> Uh huh. I can see how easily Henri would fit into a Thetmes deck.
>
> Square Peg + Round Hole = GG
And the grand finale!
Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's
Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific
S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of
Free MinionsTM.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Cameron
Crap... comparing him to a g1 Prince... oh well. Still a nice group
of disciplines, and I can't see giving him 4 superiors on a 7.
> Josh
>
> compulsory obsession
> (for men?)
mmm... smells like keyboarding.
salem
noodleboy
> > name does this have to do with utter crappiness of his "special"?
>
> I'll go slow.
Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
> He has 7 points of disciplines, on a 7 cap vampire. In addition he
> has a special that is cornercase, but not unusable... need one vote to
> get your first Cardinal benediction passed? Tap to gain a bishop.
> Seems simple enough to me, he's undercosted with the special (by a .5
> point, because it's cornercase.)
Indeed. So, in this hypothetical PRE/OBT vote deck we're playing with,
which untitled 5+ vampire are you going to make a bishop? Jacko? Give
me a break.
"Cornercase" is a gentle way of saying "You will use this ability
maybe once in your entire VTES life."
"Cornercase" is a gentle way of saying "shite".
Carbomb is "cornercase". Liberty Club Intrigue is "cornercase".
"Cornercase" can gobble my chopper.
> Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah!
> LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works
> well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in
> the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me"....
Indeed. Whereas I said "Aha! LSJ has given me another votey Lasombra.
Yet again the third Lasombra IN CLAN DISCIPLINE is ignored in favour
of an ooc bolt-on."
You wanted an OBT/PRE 7 pointer for your votey deck? You already had
Jessica. You've had her for years. The Lasombra PRE vote deck has been
a viable strategy since Sabbat came out, and has been done many times
by many folks, myself included [it did very well]. Meanwhile a
strategy that would seem bleedingly obvious to most for a clan that
has Potence, ie POT Combat with OBT support, remains unachievable
because we simply don't have the vamps.
> In a voted deck with OBT stealth, like he works in, you MIGHT use pot
> to toss agate and run away to long. pot is enough for that purpose.
> Or you might use the OBT card that does the same damn thing.
There. Now you're articulating properly.
There are several Obten cards that do the "same damn thing" as a gate
[Darkness within, Shadow Step], ie, put you at long range, while still
freeing you up for an SCE. I'd recommend you MIGHT want to put those
in your votey deck instead of POT strikes.
Additionally, by your own rationale if you're only using pot to "run
away", and you can run away better with Obten, why give Tobias pot at
all?
> see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a
> situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd
> discipline, which makes sense.
"Moved away"? Implying they were ever there? Got news for you. They
weren't.
My point is that it makes *very little* sense. Potence is their in
clan discipline, not Presence. Yet the options made available by
having Pot in clan are being repeatedly ignored in favour of other,
out of clan discipline strategies, which continues to baffle and
frustrate me. Why create a vampire like Talley the Hound? He's the
foundation of a fantastic OBT/POT deck. Where is his back-up? He has
none under 9 points.
This makes sense to you?
> They're the only clan with OBT, so
> they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps,
> so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So
> that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and
> OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT
> combat.
Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and
presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other
cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat
in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable
torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"?
>And Stealth isn't needed in a deck that likes to fight. So
> PRE seems to make a lot of sense to me.
It makes sense if the strategies made available by the Clan's natural
discipline spread have been adequately explored. I submit that they
have not, and that the clan's entire third discipline, ie, Potence, is
being repeatedly ignored by the design team.
For the Derek Ray's of the world [smile] allow me to present some
statistical, factual evidence:
Of the 8 Lasombra vampires released over the last three expansions, we
find the following spread of Potence:
Tobias - 7 cap. pot
Marcus Vitel ADV - 10 cap. POT
Lucita ADV - 8 cap. pot
Banjoko - 5 cap. pot
Henri Lavenant - 7 cap. pot
Hester Reed - 3 cap. pot
Nahir - 10 cap. POT
Tabitha Fisk - 4 cap. pot
Of the 8, only two have POT, and BOTH of those are 10 caps. Both of
them also blow goats.
Additionally, of the 8, two of these vampires have an out of clan
discipline at superior level, whilst their in-clan Potence remains at
inferior [Lucita - FOR, Tobias - PRE].
Prior to the release of the Camarilla expansion [and after, sadly],
only two Lasombra below a capacity of NINE had POT, and one of those
[Lisette] has no Obtenebration whatsoever. Since the viability of
"Lasombra fatty multi rush" is tenuous, given the small numbers of
Lasombra with both POT and for/FOR [2 - Ambrosio and Marcus ADV, and
rushers, they ain't] I submit that an entire third of the Lasombra
discipline spread has been effectively ignored since the Clan was
introduced to the game.
This makes sense how?
> Bless you.
Why, thank you. :)
> size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So
> another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some
> clan cards can be used in it.
Indeed. And if we had an even remotely plausible spread of POT mid
pointers to front the offensive with the aid of pot weenies such as
Hester and Tabitha, this combat deck might be a reality. However,
since we do not, it IS NOT, and therefore your point is moot. If
Tabitha had POT,obt instead of pot, obt and f*cking pro, we might be
in a position to consider a Lasombra pot combat deck. However, we are
repeatedly handed weenies with next to useless out of clan ad ons
[Ramiro anyone?] whilst our third in clan discipline is REPEATEDLY
ignored in the mid-point range.
> As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra,
> you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan.
Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
fool.
> And all you do is complain about the out of clans.
I suggest you re-read my original post. I complain about a great deal,
not merely out-of-clans. :) I do give some praise as well. However,
the discipline spread of Clan Lasombra as a whole, as stated in my
original post, is in my considered opinion, backed by some factual
evidence, Clan Lasombra's weakest point.
Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had
any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has
been in Clan Lasombra. If you can.
> A good use of newsletters
> is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under
> costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead
> of whining that POT isn't on all of them.
"Whining"? You're being foolish again. As for exaltation, I will exalt
only those vampires worthy of it. Banjoko is my man. Him, I exalt. The
rest? Nay, not worthy of my praise are they, save perhaps for Henri,
who might be fit to bag my groceries on occasion, when he's not
flushing Tobias' head down the toilet.
> see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a
> size useable in a combat deck.
In this endeavour, I wish you luck. Rest assured that you will need
it. It certainly won't be a Lasombra deck that you're flying.
> Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of
> the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size
> was made into a voter.
As stated above, this strategy needed no reinforcement in my opinion.
Particularly when other strategies based upon in clan disciplines are
being repeatedly ignored. Additionally, I would submit that the "main
use" of Clan Lasombra has been, and will always be, Stealth/Bleed. Not
that this is all they can do, not by a long shot. But it is certainly
what they excel at.
> > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly?
>
> And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that.
> It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with
> superior, and there would be one without it at all.
What? I think you're going to have to slow it down further, chief. A
sentence that makes sense would be nice. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
> Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps
> (6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter
> jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you
> use this miserable collection of POT to some effect?
This is EXACTLY my f*cking point!!
We DON'T HAVE a mid-point spread of vampires with POT. We NEED THEM to
explore Pot combat as a strategy. Give Henri POT, team him up with
Talley and we start to have a team. Yet instead, we get given a
useless [and yes, i will go on record now and say that the inclusion
of qui on a Lasombra is akin to bringing a pair of skis with you on a
trek into the frickin' Sahara] out of clan add-on.
Why? So Henri can go hang out with THETMES?! Uh-huh. Maybe he can ask
the Fairy Godmother and Santa Claus along for the ride?
> or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a
> possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it.
Gobbling my chopper = fun.
Try it. No teeth please.
n
salem
scrawled:
[snip]
I agree. i tried building a Lasombra pot deck (the Lasombra Hate
Everyone, based off the Noferatu Hate You deck by...Peter Bakija?)
But it needed many talleys, which screwed my crypt draws. other vamps
just didn't cut it.
Basically, the deck didn't work because there aren't enough little
'uns with pot/POT.
Might try to rebuild it now that BH has sprinkled a few more littlies
in there...
>Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and
>presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other
>cards in the ENTIRE GAME.
actually, there's quite a list:
Shadow Step (the card you are talking about above)
Sniper Rifle
Storm Sewers
Gang Tactics
High Ground
Neutral Guard (basic obeah level)
Cailean
i think there's a few more but i can't recall them off the top of my
head...and i don't know how to do the regexp thing in the Vamp
program. :)
noodleboy
>
> Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni.
I don't want POT/DOM. I want POT/OBT. I want the Lasombra to be able
to fight as well, if not better than the Gios. This isn't an odd
request considering they both have Potence in clan, and the Lasombra
also have another in clan discipline with great combat utility.
This is not an outrageous request. To ask for more than two vamps with
a superior IN CLAN discipline below NINE CAPACITY should not be
considered outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.
> PRE with Lasombra
> is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters
> in the clan.
It is strong. The point is, it already WAS strong before Tobias
flashed his ugly mug at us. He does not fill a hole. Lasombra PRE/OBT
vote was already a viable and successful strategy. Lasombra POT combat
is non-existent.
Did we need a mid-cap Lasombra with PRE? No, I think not. Not as much
as we need another POT/OBT/obt Lasombra to back the line of Talley and
. . . oh wait, there AREN'T any others.
> Bless you.
Thank you. :)
> I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge
> followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually
> it sounds like a really good deck.
I presume you're talking a Grapple and not a Thoughts betrayed. But
tell me - how are you going to get your Graverobbing off without Obten
for stealth? Because Lisette, she ain't got none. Or are you really
going build a deck around stealth with obten when your starting
quarterback doesn't even have the discipline at inferior?
> DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a
> bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM).
Again, good luck pulling that one off without OBT. Or are you going to
play other Lasombra with OBT and try to bolt PRO and POT onto them so
they don't choke like bitches in combat? No? So who else is going to
back your line? Francisco and Lisette do not a deck make. And the
original poster didn't even rate Francisco worthy of a mention.
> Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's
> Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific
> S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of
> Free MinionsTM.
Indeed. Aside from the fact that you can do this without little
Henri's help anyway, again, you're coming up short on stealth. Are you
going to bolt OBT onto Thetmes, or are you going to choke on cards he
can't use in case he's lucky enough to poke someone into torpor? Are
you going to give Henri celerity so he can fight worth a beggar's
cuss, or is he going to die like a bitch the first time someone looks
at him cockeyed? Maybe we can throw in Gratiano and play obf instead?
How exactly does this marvellous Thetmes/Henri dreamteam combo deck
work?
No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all.
noodleboy
Cameron
snip cornercase... we'll have to disagree about its usefulness, cause
I've found it useful. Not strong, but useful.
> > Having observed these things about him, I said (upon seeing him) Ah!
> > LSJ has given me a new vampire who is slightly under costed, who works
> > well in vote decks and has a special that has some marginal ability in
> > the same. Hence implied game text, "vote with me"....
>
> Indeed. Whereas I said "Aha! LSJ has given me another votey Lasombra.
> Yet again the third Lasombra IN CLAN DISCIPLINE is ignored in favour
> of an ooc bolt-on."
>
> You wanted an OBT/PRE 7 pointer for your votey deck? You already had
> Jessica. You've had her for years. The Lasombra PRE vote deck has been
> a viable strategy since Sabbat came out, and has been done many times
> by many folks, myself included [it did very well]. Meanwhile a
> strategy that would seem bleedingly obvious to most for a clan that
> has Potence, ie POT Combat with OBT support, remains unachievable
> because we simply don't have the vamps.
What kind of POT/OBT deck is this. I can think of ONLY ONE which has
any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This
doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that
card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it.
You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes
The other, Black Meta for strikes at close loses the only OBT close
range strike cards under IG. So joy.
> There are several Obten cards that do the "same damn thing" as a gate
> [Darkness within, Shadow Step], ie, put you at long range, while still
> freeing you up for an SCE. I'd recommend you MIGHT want to put those
> in your votey deck instead of POT strikes.
>
> Additionally, by your own rationale if you're only using pot to "run
> away", and you can run away better with Obten, why give Tobias pot at
> all?
I'm not using pot at all. OBT combat is much better as a preventative
measure. (S:CE and Entombment) Tobias has pot b/c it's his 3rd in
clan. Like Ezekiel has obf, or Sela has cel.
> > see above about him being a votey vampire in a votey clan. In such a
> > situation, the Lasombra have been moved away from POT, it's their 3rd
> > discipline, which makes sense.
>
> "Moved away"? Implying they were ever there? Got news for you. They
> weren't.
>
> My point is that it makes *very little* sense. Potence is their in
> clan discipline, not Presence. Yet the options made available by
> having Pot in clan are being repeatedly ignored in favour of other,
> out of clan discipline strategies, which continues to baffle and
> frustrate me. Why create a vampire like Talley the Hound? He's the
> foundation of a fantastic OBT/POT deck. Where is his back-up? He has
> none under 9 points.
>
> This makes sense to you?
Yes. Personally if I were on the design team I'd keep the 2-3
lasombra like they are. IF OBT/POT is as viable as you make it out to
be (and I see way to much duplication of effort and contraryness for
that to be the case) then I'd roll it out in G4, if we ever get there,
using the weenies with obt/pot in g3 as the basis.
> > They're the only clan with OBT, so
> > they get that first. DOM is good, and they've got lots of big vamps,
> > so that's second. And lots of people have pot in clan already. So
> > that's third. Further, POT and OBT don't synergize as well as DOM and
> > OBT do. OBT combat doesn't work well (in most circumstances) with POT
> > combat.
>
> Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and
> presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other
> cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat
> in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable
> torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"?
OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that
you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step
(IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't
lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the
range that's wrong for your deck)
Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp
to torpor... way to waste a card slot.
There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In
the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so
can Graverobbing, Amaranth....
I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5
other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have
POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot. Just like enough have dom, so
Tabitha doesn't get any. The Lasombra were moved towards DOM/OBT,
with pot as a side discipline, and one that wasn't expected to be
used. It hasn't been, anything the Lasombra would do with POT, the
Brujah can do better. Having no !Clan also limits the diversity
available.
> > Bless you.
>
> Why, thank you. :)
>
> > size matters in a combat deck that isn't a multi rush. Right? So
> > another small vamp helps this deck. Another lasombra means that some
> > clan cards can be used in it.
>
> Indeed. And if we had an even remotely plausible spread of POT mid
> pointers to front the offensive with the aid of pot weenies such as
> Hester and Tabitha, this combat deck might be a reality. However,
> since we do not, it IS NOT, and therefore your point is moot. If
> Tabitha had POT,obt instead of pot, obt and f*cking pro, we might be
> in a position to consider a Lasombra pot combat deck. However, we are
> repeatedly handed weenies with next to useless out of clan ad ons
> [Ramiro anyone?] whilst our third in clan discipline is REPEATEDLY
> ignored in the mid-point range.
again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad
thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn
discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with
POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas),
probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't
expect to see anymore until G4, if then.
> > As for talking about the lasombra from the viewpoint of the lasombra,
> > you seem a bit uninformed about the current uses of the clan.
>
> Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
> fool.
sorry no wink function.
> > And all you do is complain about the out of clans.
>
> I suggest you re-read my original post. I complain about a great deal,
> not merely out-of-clans. :) I do give some praise as well. However,
> the discipline spread of Clan Lasombra as a whole, as stated in my
> original post, is in my considered opinion, backed by some factual
> evidence, Clan Lasombra's weakest point.
>
> Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had
> any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has
> been in Clan Lasombra. If you can.
FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till
high caps. Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat. The
Cam clans less so, because there are two sets of them, but everyone
has less of something, and similiar clans have different specialties.
> > A good use of newsletters
> > is to exult in new vampires. It's not like these guys are under
> > costed. How about looking for ways to use their disciplines instead
> > of whining that POT isn't on all of them.
>
> "Whining"? You're being foolish again. As for exaltation, I will exalt
> only those vampires worthy of it. Banjoko is my man. Him, I exalt. The
> rest? Nay, not worthy of my praise are they, save perhaps for Henri,
> who might be fit to bag my groceries on occasion, when he's not
> flushing Tobias' head down the toilet.
because they don't have POT. And that's the only standard you use to
judge vampires?
> > see above about not bolting on anthing. the vamps already exist in a
> > size useable in a combat deck.
>
> In this endeavour, I wish you luck. Rest assured that you will need
> it. It certainly won't be a Lasombra deck that you're flying.
perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck
now. This arguement is like saying using Vitel/Anne/Arika for the obf
isn't a Ventrue deck. It is, it just takes advantage of an out of
clan already on several of the vampires.
> > Or maybe this was a vampire made to help reinforce the main uses of
> > the clan, as seen at that time. As such the first Vamp of this size
> > was made into a voter.
>
> As stated above, this strategy needed no reinforcement in my opinion.
> Particularly when other strategies based upon in clan disciplines are
> being repeatedly ignored. Additionally, I would submit that the "main
> use" of Clan Lasombra has been, and will always be, Stealth/Bleed. Not
> that this is all they can do, not by a long shot. But it is certainly
> what they excel at.
I'd say vote, but hey.
> > > Indeed. And Quietus will help you in this deck how exactly?
> >
> > And POT would help you in this deck how exactly? I'll answer that.
> > It wouldn't because POT instead of pot/qui would be the only one with
> > superior, and there would be one without it at all.
>
> What? I think you're going to have to slow it down further, chief. A
> sentence that makes sense would be nice. Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT
bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help
that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck
need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to
attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed
the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and
even less than qui.)
> > Give me an example of this. POT is only on 9 HUGE vamps
> > (6,6,9,9,9,10,10,10,10) and one of those is Adv. Marcus who's utter
> > jank. adding pot gets you 6 more vamps plus the new ones. How do you
> > use this miserable collection of POT to some effect?
>
> This is EXACTLY my f*cking point!!
Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires.
Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good
effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it
doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show
me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck
and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along
with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is.
> Yet instead, we get given a
> useless [and yes, i will go on record now and say that the inclusion
> of qui on a Lasombra is akin to bringing a pair of skis with you on a
> trek into the frickin' Sahara] out of clan add-on.
>
> Why? So Henri can go hang out with THETMES?! Uh-huh. Maybe he can ask
> the Fairy Godmother and Santa Claus along for the ride?
What's their Discipline Spread... SC has ANI/AUS, and FGm has THA...
right?
DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with
Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI,
Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI. qui is also an effective combat discipline,
like at long range.
> > or DOM/qui/BH == interesting. It's being tossed around POB as a
> > possiable deck type. Innovation = fun. Try it.
>
> Gobbling my chopper = fun.
>
> Try it. No teeth please.
Uh huh, So you can't see a deck in the above? may you be preyed on by
Cherryholmes.
Cameron
salem
scrawled:
>Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires.
>Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good
>effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it
>doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show
>me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck
>and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along
>with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is.
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (14 cards)
4 Blood Doll
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Fame
2 Haven Uncovered
1 Political Hunting Ground
3 Potence
1 Power Structure
Action (12 cards)
10 Bum's Rush
1 Graverobbing
1 Rampage
Action Modifier (9 cards)
4 Shroud of Night
5 Threats
Reaction (4 cards)
4 Deflection
Combat (51 cards)
2 Darkness Within
3 Decapitate
3 Disarm
1 Fists of Death
10 Immortal Grapple
4 Increased Strength
4 Shadow Step
6 Taste of Vitae
8 Torn Signpost
10 Undead Strength
this was an actual built deck, so obviously it could be better if i
had better cards. like Tension, for starters, instead of Hunting
Ground.
Now that i think of it, i was actually running Fake Outs instead of
Shadow Step. :(
and after playing it i'd probably drop 2 Decapitates for Tastes.
If you go look at the Nosferatu Hate You deck, you'll see Behind Yous
as replacable maneouvers. Shadow Step goes two better in that it's
playable in any round, and if you KNOW they're going to out maneouver
you anyway you can just play it at superior.
my crypt was a tad large for my liking, but also i was very new to
rush combat so i played it a bit poorly, so it didn't do well. If i
had a bunch of POT weenies for it, i am sure even i could scrape
something decent performace wise.
Smiling Tom
> >
> > And why would you do this?
> >
> > noodleboy
>
> More importantly, what are 'those' apparently-multiple !nos packing
> DOM ANI POT that are being fantasized about? Julio has that discipline
> spread, and that's it. Cailean and Tarbaby Jack both have dom ANI POT,
> for what little it's worth, and that's it for dominate-!Nos, even
> those without ANI POT added.
>
> -John Flournoy
Julio, Nahir AND Silvia Giovanni, there you have 3 really good vamps with
ANI POT DOM and two more really good vamps with ANI POT dom. Also, there are
a few smallcaps that helps filling the whole crypt (shane grimald-ani dom
pot-, Judah- POT ani dom-). I see the use of dom in this deck as an easy way
to beam up a crypt and to pack some deflections, so you don't really need to
pack lots of permanent intercept and cards to block stealth bleed, and also
don't really need to backrush. Sorry to think so, but I don't really see the
need to have a whole crypt of DOM vamps to do so.
Also, it opens another nice possibility: carrion & murder of crows plus
thoughts betrayed, and a nice bunch of aid from bats.
Also, back on Nahir topic, I'm building now an "all out enviromental damage
deck" with her. Sure, a One Man Army deck again. But might be fun to play
carrion+darkness within+weather control
And Nahir seems quite good for serious, competitive decks, too. An Anarch
revolt deck, for instance, with lots of copies of huitzilopochtli. You loose
the great anson, but gain A LOT of room in the deck, as you don't really
need to pack storage annex or elder library.
Just because it's a vamp that doesn't fit in standard lasombra decks doesn't
mean it isn't usefull.
Smiling Tom
David Cherryholmes
> I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge
> followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually
> it sounds like a really good deck.
Go ahead and plug Basilla. You know you want to. :)
> Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's
> Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific
> S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of
> Free MinionsTM.
It's one of my Three Good Assamite decks. You'll get a good close look at
it in a couple of weeks. ;)
P.S. Don't *even* expect a repeat of my lousy performance at
DragonCon. It was a fluke, man. A fluke, I tell you!
See ya in Texas,
David Cherryholmes
Duke Radiology
P.E.T. Facility
(919) 684-7714
david.che...@duke.edu
XZealot
> >
> > Not really, If you want POT/DOM try the Giovanni.
>
> I don't want POT/DOM. I want POT/OBT. I want the Lasombra to be able
> to fight as well, if not better than the Gios. This isn't an odd
> request considering they both have Potence in clan, and the Lasombra
> also have another in clan discipline with great combat utility.
FYI, the Lasombra already fight better than the Giovanni. They have
access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and
entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have
access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black
Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have
none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you
need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see
Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts
betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it
only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt
and get uber effects at superior OBT.
So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra?
> This is not an outrageous request. To ask for more than two vamps with
> a superior IN CLAN discipline below NINE CAPACITY should not be
> considered outlandish by any stretch of the imagination.
But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has.
No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled
(i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner
circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%).
Ventrue (13 out of 40= 32%)have more, but are split between Group 1
and 3. So are not interfacable.
Toreador have the same problem.
Tremere only have 7 useful titles
Nosferatu only have 8 useful titles
> > PRE with Lasombra
> > is just incredibly strong given the "presence" of a number of voters
> > in the clan.
>
> It is strong. The point is, it already WAS strong before Tobias
> flashed his ugly mug at us. He does not fill a hole. Lasombra PRE/OBT
> vote was already a viable and successful strategy. Lasombra POT combat
> is non-existent.
I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than
pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two.
> Did we need a mid-cap Lasombra with PRE? No, I think not. Not as much
> as we need another POT/OBT/obt Lasombra to back the line of Talley and
> . . . oh wait, there AREN'T any others.
>
> > Bless you.
>
> Thank you. :)
>
> > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge
> > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually
> > it sounds like a really good deck.
>
> I presume you're talking a Grapple and not a Thoughts betrayed. But
> tell me - how are you going to get your Graverobbing off without Obten
> for stealth? Because Lisette, she ain't got none. Or are you really
> going build a deck around stealth with obten when your starting
> quarterback doesn't even have the discipline at inferior?
I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by
torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every
minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear.
If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use
Seductions and Earth Controls.
> > DOM=Graverobbing=Free MinionTM, which last time I checked was never a
> > bad thing (unless you are the former owner of said Free MinionTM).
>
> Again, good luck pulling that one off without OBT. Or are you going to
> play other Lasombra with OBT and try to bolt PRO and POT onto them so
> they don't choke like bitches in combat? No? So who else is going to
> back your line? Francisco and Lisette do not a deck make. And the
> original poster didn't even rate Francisco worthy of a mention.
Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to
defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt
on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill
out the crypt.
> > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's
> > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific
> > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of
> > Free MinionsTM.
>
> Indeed. Aside from the fact that you can do this without little
> Henri's help anyway, again, you're coming up short on stealth. Are you
> going to bolt OBT onto Thetmes, or are you going to choke on cards he
> can't use in case he's lucky enough to poke someone into torpor? Are
> you going to give Henri celerity so he can fight worth a beggar's
> cuss, or is he going to die like a bitch the first time someone looks
> at him cockeyed? Maybe we can throw in Gratiano and play obf instead?
> How exactly does this marvellous Thetmes/Henri dreamteam combo deck
> work?
If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every
one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in
the same decks as they perform opposite functions. There are 7
vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good
crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three
of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three
of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I
would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the
Hearts Desire, or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high
ground, and fake outs.
Thetmes and Henri
Deck Name: What I can do at work
Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr.
Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using
Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll
them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting.
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 12, Max: 37, Avg: 5.75)
----------------------------------------------
3 Henri Lavenant pot qui DOM OBT 7, Lasombra
3 Thetmes CEL dom OBF pot QUI 10, Assamite, 2 votes
2 Harika Guljan QUI 3, Assamite
1 Martin Franckel tha AUS 3, Tremere
2 Zoe AUS cel obf 3, Malkavian
1 Isabel de Leon AUS 3, Toreador
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (12 cards)
4 Blood Doll
6 Haven Uncovered
2 Pentex Subversion
Action (28 cards)
3 Ambush
3 Bum's Rush
3 Covenant of Blood
8 Graverobbing
3 Harass
8 Precognizant Mobility
Action Modifier (16 cards)
10 Cloak the Gathering
6 Deed the Heart`s Desire
Reaction (13 cards)
4 Foul Blood
9 Telepathic Counter
Combat (21 cards)
5 Disarm
10 Immortal Grapple
6 Pushing the Limit
This deck was last saved at 10:23:26 AM on 11/25/2003
> No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all.
That is because you have to think outside the box.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
John Flournoy
>
> > Now you're just being a tool. Permanent additional strikes and
> > presses. The ability to set range - a power granted by only two other
> > cards in the ENTIRE GAME. The ability to recoup blood lost in combat
> > in addition to Taste of Vitae. Let's not even mention their unsoakable
> > torpor strike. How does this equate to "not working well"?
>
> OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that
> you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step
> (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't
> lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the
> range that's wrong for your deck)
>
> Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp
> to torpor... way to waste a card slot.
>
> There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In
> the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so
> can Graverobbing, Amaranth....
Except Graverobbings can be blocked - if you were blocking the acting
Meth might simply rescue before your turn, and if you were
acting/rushing, you need a second action to do the Graverob. Amaranth
subjects you to a blood hunt that you might lose. Decapitate just
kills their vampire, automatically at no consequence to you besides
the cost. (Well, automatically unless someone's playing Redline or
another ultra-corner-case card.)
> Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires.
> Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good
> effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it
> doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show
> me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck
> and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along
> with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is.
You can fairly easily build a deck around many copies of Shadow Strike
at superior that mirrors an Aid From Bats strategy - keep maneuvering
to long, hitting for one and pressing. Except with POT, you can tack
on something nasty like Fire in the Blood - I'd skip playing FitB on
round one against decks packing S:CE - if they don't end it, then on
round 2 start the Fire and watch your damage ramp up each round until
they fall.
It's certainly true that OBT and POT don't really synergy well at
superior for both. On the other hand, if the Lasombra actually had
small vamps with POT, they could potentially build a fairly nasty
intercept-n-whack'em wall, which would certainly be different.
That said, I don't think there's a whole lot of people crying that the
Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the
clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We
won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!"
> Cameron
-John Flournoy
Cameron
> See ya in Texas,
>
> David Cherryholmes
> Duke Radiology
> P.E.T. Facility
> (919) 684-7714
> david.che...@duke.edu
wait... so that wasn't an idle curse that I made?
cool.
Cameron
XZealot
>
> > I don't know but aggrivated hand damage that foils S:CE and Dodge
> > followed up with a graverobbing sounds pretty good to me. Actually
> > it sounds like a really good deck.
>
> Go ahead and plug Basilla. You know you want to. :)
Just to let you know, I have made a few upgrades to that deck as well.
> > Thetmes's Permanently Aggrivated Square Peg into some poor bastard's
> > Round Hole while mixing in a little domination sounds like a horrific
> > S&M movie but in reality is a great way to Graverob lots and lots of
> > Free MinionsTM.
>
> It's one of my Three Good Assamite decks. You'll get a good close look at
> it in a couple of weeks. ;)
>
> P.S. Don't *even* expect a repeat of my lousy performance at
> DragonCon. It was a fluke, man. A fluke, I tell you!
<Giggles>
What was that deck supposed to do anyway?
> See ya in Texas,
I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare.
Curevei
Time stamp is recent as I only just saved it as a text file for this post, but
this is a deck I've had for quite some time. While normally I'm all for
ignoring Potence when putting together a deck that interests me, somehow, one
would think the crypt config would be a bit different for this deck which does
(interest me).
Deck Name: Shadow Strike
Created By: Talley
Description: POT/obt Shadow Strike
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 16, Max: 36, Avg: 6.33)
----------------------------------------------
2 Bronwen CEL dom obt POT PRE 10, Brujah Antitribu, Priscus
2 Jacko CEL obt POT PRE 8, Brujah Antitribu
2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra
2 Sela cel obt POT PRE 6, Brujah Antitribu, Bishop
2 Hector Sosa pre POT 4, Brujah
2 Agatha obf POT 4, Nosferatu Antitribu
Library: (75 cards)
-------------------
Master (15 cards)
1 Barrens, The
5 Blood Doll
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Fame
2 Haven Uncovered
1 Hungry Coyote, The
3 Obtenebration
1 Waste Management Operation
Action (9 cards)
8 Bum's Rush
1 Rampage
Action Modifier (3 cards)
1 Aire of Elation
1 Conditioning
1 Shadow Play
Reaction (12 cards)
1 Deflection
6 Eyes of the Night
5 Forced Awakening
Combat (36 cards)
2 Fists of Death
2 Immortal Grapple
14 Shadow Strike
6 Taste of Vitae
12 Torn Signpost
This deck was last saved at 10:49:57 AM on 11/25/2003
salem
scrawled:
[snip]
>Except Graverobbings can be blocked - if you were blocking the acting
>Meth might simply rescue before your turn, and if you were
>acting/rushing, you need a second action to do the Graverob. Amaranth
>subjects you to a blood hunt that you might lose. Decapitate just
>kills their vampire, automatically at no consequence to you besides
>the cost. (Well, automatically unless someone's playing Redline or
>another ultra-corner-case card.)
Redline won't save a Decapitated vamp, only a vamp burned in a
successful Bloodhunt referendum.
You'd need Reform Body or Ashes to Ashes.
[snip]
>That said, I don't think there's a whole lot of people crying that the
>Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the
>clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We
>won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!"
But I'd like to be able to win with them without bleeding or voting or
purging baltimore.
actually, i'd just like to be able to win a storyline at all....stupid
gargoyles.
noodleboy
> any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This
> doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that
> card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it.
> You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes
Hmm, let's see.
Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press
Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press
Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press
Black Met/Double Entomb/
Add Decapitates if you think you need them.
How's that for starters?
> > This makes sense to you?
>
> Yes.
A wonderful world it is, that you live in.
> Personally if I were on the design team I'd keep the 2-3
> lasombra like they are. IF OBT/POT is as viable as you make it out to
> be (and I see way to much duplication of effort and contraryness for
> that to be the case)
How so?
> OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that
> you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step
> (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't
> lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the
> range that's wrong for your deck)
See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others.
> Darkness W/in recoups its cost after a massive POT strike sends a vamp
> to torpor... way to waste a card slot.
Free with path. Gives you a maneuver. Your first "massive POT strike"
doesn't always result in a torpored vampire, meaning if combat goes to
round 2 [and it often does] you've done two unpreventable damage to
your opponent as well as gaining a blood back for yourself. Darkness
Within is a fine addition to any Lasombra combat deck.
> There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In
> the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so
> can Graverobbing, Amaranth....
Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
> I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5
> other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have
> POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot.
Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses".
> again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad
> thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn
> discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with
> POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas),
> probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't
> expect to see anymore until G4, if then.
I would settle for a 5 pointer. Hell, i'd settle for another 6
pointer, so long as they at least have obt. Shit, at this stage, I'd
even settle for a 7 pointer. To me, this is not an outrageous request.
Certainly not when already viable strats [ie, PRE vote] are still
being fleshed out.
> > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
> > fool.
>
> sorry no wink function.
Fool it is, then.
> > Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had
> > any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has
> > been in Clan Lasombra. If you can.
>
> FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till
> high caps.
Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your
statements.
> Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat.
"Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"?
> because they don't have POT. And that's the only standard you use to
> judge vampires?
Banjoko doesn't have POT. Yet I gave him two thumbs up. You're
grasping at straws, my good man.
> perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck
> now.
Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell,
what would your crypt be?
> you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT
> bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help
> that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck
> need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to
> attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed
> the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and
> even less than qui.)
Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying
qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that
between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed
deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how
the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the
addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him.
To this, you have no answer except to babble about Deed the heart's
Desire. You're honestly going to include this card in your
Tobias/Henri/Gratiano powerbleed deck?
> Ok, we agree we don't have POT in this clan on small vampires.
> Pretend we do and give me a deck that would use it with OBT to good
> effect. We don't need these vampires to explore a strategy... it
> doesn't exist AFAIS. I remain open to being wrong about this. Show
> me the cool combo of cards that makes this a viable and useful deck
> and I'll be happy to complain about the lack of OBT/POT right along
> with you. Until then i'll remain happy with the clan the way it is.
See decks posted by other below, and the deck concepts above. If you
can see no merit here, then there is no convincing you. Remain happy.
Enjoy your life of bliss. Everything is super.
> What's their Discipline Spread... SC has ANI/AUS, and FGm has THA...
> right?
>
> DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with
> Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI,
> Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI.
Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here?
>qui is also an effective combat discipline,
> like at long range.
Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without
cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going
to play Fake Outs?
> Uh huh, So you can't see a deck in the above? may you be preyed on by
> Cherryholmes.
Oh, I see a deck. I just don't see a very good one.
noodleboy
noodleboy
> Lasombra just aren't effective due to the lack of small-cap POT in the
> clan. "Oh woe is us, how will we ever win without it! What's that? We
> won a storyline without it? Uh... but not ALL the storylines!"
No-one has said they aren't effective on this thread.
Re-read.
n
David Cherryholmes
wrote:
>Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your
>statements.
Speaking as someone pissed that he can't work Kiss of Ra into his Red
Herring angle, I do note a sad lack of CHI/FOR Ravnos:
Joaquina Amaya, 6 cap
Etienne Fauberge, 8 cap
Tereza Rostas, 8 cap
Konstantin, 9 cap
Darius Styx 9 cap
Ankla Hotep, 9 cap
Spider-Killer, 10 cap
Ivan, 10 cap
Ezmerelda, 11 cap
I know my criteria, superior CHI is more stringent than yours, but
inferior Chimestry is ass (unlike inferior Obt), and they are overall
a much weaker clan than the Lasombra.
>Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying
>qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that
>between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed
>deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how
>the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the
>addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him.
"Unbouncable" *might* be worth throwing a few skill cards at, to round
out a deck.
>Oh, I see a deck. I just don't see a very good one.
I haven't built that, so I can't comment on it. Probably bad, but
that's generally a safe statement to make about Assamite decks.
David Cherryholmes
VEKN Prince of Durham, NC
noodleboy
> access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and
> entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have
> access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black
> Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have
> none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you
> need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see
> Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts
> betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it
> only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt
> and get uber effects at superior OBT.
>
> So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra?
The Giovanni have a much larger spread of POT across their mid to low
caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps,
all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are
nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot
vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The
pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike
phase.
In general combat terms, yes I will conceed that the utility granted
by Obten [Shadow Step, Arms, Entomb, Shadow Strike, etc] makes the
Gios and the Lasombra quite an even race. However, this doesn't change
the fact that a basic combat strat for a clan with Potence cannot be
realistically achieved with the Lasombra crypt option we presently
have. To me, this is illogical and frustrating.
> But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has.
>
> No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled
> (i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner
> circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%).
Indeed. But all of these titles appear at the 9+ mark, with the
exception of Gratiano [who is truly an awesome vampire] and a merged
Lucita [who effectively costs 9 pool or more to influence out anyway].
This goes back to my orginal point about Lasombra decks strats being
limited due to the generally high capacity of their useful vampires. A
large contingent of bloat cards MUST be included in every Lasombra
deck as a result, because the vamps are so damned expensive.
> I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than
> pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two.
I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely
upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen
have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking
for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to
overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could
argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead
me to believe that you're dead wrong here.
> I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by
> torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every
> minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear.
Meanwhile, those gravrobs are clogging your hand while you wait for
all his minions to die. Additionally, your grandprey is not being
touched by his ass-raped predator and is winning the game - a problem
with any rush deck when it gets flown by a "block me and f*cking die"
type pilot. [I used to be one]
You will need stealth to get your gravrobs through. Otherwise, you'll
destroy your prey's minions so he can deal no pressure to his own
prey, and in the time it takes to oust him, your grandprey is
sweeping. The best way to do it would be with pro stealth, although
this becomes mighty expensive, mighty fast, considering the 2 blood
you play to graverob or rescue, all the blood you're paying for your
pro stealth, the blood you play for your claws in combat and the fact
that you're not Tasting back anything because you're relying on
scrtaches, not big hits, to put your mark down.
> If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use
> Seductions and Earth Controls.
Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and
the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you
recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do.
> Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to
> defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt
> on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill
> out the crypt.
Again, this is sounding less and less like a Lasombra deck, and more a
mishmash of pot/pro vamps. I didn't doubt Tabitha''s utility in a deck
like this. However, is it Lasombra?
> If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every
> one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in
> the same decks as they perform opposite functions.
I thought the whole point of Henri's inclusion in this deck was to
graverob? You really think you're going to pull off a Graverobbing
with any regularity with only 1 stealth?
Best of luck, matey.
>There are 7
> vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good
> crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three
> of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three
> of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I
> would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the
> Hearts Desire,
With Henri? What are you smoking?
> or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high
> ground, and fake outs.
With Henri? Why the hell would you bother? You could achive more in
the same deck with Harika!
> Thetmes and Henri
>
> Deck Name: What I can do at work
> Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr.
> Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using
> Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll
> them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting.
Okay, problems that I can see scanning this in 30 seconds:
You have no maneuvers aside from your rush actions. Guns, bats, hell,
even Fake Outs will own you.
You have no bleed, no Fames, no Tensions. Therefore, you have no means
by which to actually oust your prey, aside bleeding for 1 lots and
lots.
Cloak the gathering will not be enough to pull off a Graverobbing.
You have no means to prevent damage, whatsoever. Sadie could take out
your whole deck with one claw.
Pentex. Why?
I can continue if you wish. Needless to say, I think this deck would
be fun for all of about 30 minutes, until it had it's ass handed to it
and you packed it up and never played it again.
> > No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all.
>
> That is because you have to think outside the box.
I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see.
noodleboy
noodleboy
> Herring angle,
Heh. That would be pretty funny.
>I do note a sad lack of CHI/FOR Ravnos:
>
> Joaquina Amaya, 6 cap
> Etienne Fauberge, 8 cap
> Tereza Rostas, 8 cap
> Konstantin, 9 cap
> Darius Styx 9 cap
> Ankla Hotep, 9 cap
> Spider-Killer, 10 cap
> Ivan, 10 cap
> Ezmerelda, 11 cap
Almost as bad as the Lasombra, but not quite. Speaking from either a
POT/OBT or POT/obt perspective, Lasombra still come up shorter than
the Ravnos - Talley being the only POT lasombra with any level of
Obtenebration under 9 points.
> I know my criteria, superior CHI is more stringent than yours, but
> inferior Chimestry is ass (unlike inferior Obt), and they are overall
> a much weaker clan than the Lasombra.
I agree with you, despite the 2nd place for Ravnos the year Lasombra
won the Stroyline tourney. But we both know this isn't the point I'm
making. I'm saying there is no clan in the game that's had one of it's
3 IC disciplines so thoroughly ignored as the Lasombra have had
Potence.
This has been my gripe for years. It still hasn't been addressed. To
me, it seems a gaping hole that needs filling long before we need
another "born to bleed" vamp like Henri, or another voter like Tobias.
> "Unbouncable" *might* be worth throwing a few skill cards at, to round
> out a deck.
Not so sure about that one. No other qui Lasombra. Seems like wing and
a prayer stuff to me.
> I haven't built that, so I can't comment on it. Probably bad, but
> that's generally a safe statement to make about Assamite decks.
I hear they stone you death for that kind of talk over at PoB. :)
noodleboy
Peter D Bakija
> I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely
> upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen
> have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking
> for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to
> overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could
> argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead
> me to believe that you're dead wrong here.
While Disarm is certainly useful for getting big vampires in torpor with
smaller vampires in a pinch, what really does the trick is sending vampires
to torpor with no blood on them, which doesn't happen with the inferior
Undead Strength/Disarm combo--your opponent goes torpor with most of their
blood and they are backand acting immediately.
Hitting with POT (and some sort of TS/US or TS/Blur IG abuse) results in
empty vampires, which means difficulty getting out of torpor, which means
you are doing your job better.
Now US/Disarm/Decapitate--now that is a handy combo :-)
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"The gun is good! The penis is bad!"
-Zardoz
XZealot
> > access to two "GO DIRECTLY TO TORPOR" cards (i.e. disarm and
> > entombment), where as Giovanni only have access to one. They have
> > access to two additionaly strike cards (arms of the abyss and Black
> > Metamorphisis), one of which is permanent, where as the Giovanni have
> > none. They have access to inferior potence which is about all you
> > need to do grossly disproportionate damage relative to capacity(see
> > Koko vs Arika). They both have access to anti S:CE in both Thoughts
> > betrayed and IG. They both have access to S:CE but Giovanni access it
> > only at superior NEC where as Giovanni get it twice at inferior obt
> > and get uber effects at superior OBT.
> >
> > So how do the Giovanni fight better than the Lasombra?
>
> The Giovanni have a much larger spread of POT across their mid to low
> caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps,
> all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are
> nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot
> vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The
> pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike
> phase.
Yes the Giovanni have more POT across their mid to low caps but you
should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to
his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas.
And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to
head, they will probably both end up in torpor.
> In general combat terms, yes I will conceed that the utility granted
> by Obten [Shadow Step, Arms, Entomb, Shadow Strike, etc] makes the
> Gios and the Lasombra quite an even race. However, this doesn't change
> the fact that a basic combat strat for a clan with Potence cannot be
> realistically achieved with the Lasombra crypt option we presently
> have. To me, this is illogical and frustrating.
The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah
Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than
of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise.
> > But the Lasombra have a strength that no other clan has.
> >
> > No other clan has such a high proportion of useful integrated titled
> > (i.e princes, archbishops, pricus, cardinals, justicars, or inner
> > circle members) vampires as the Lasombra (7 out of 23= 30%).
>
> Indeed. But all of these titles appear at the 9+ mark, with the
> exception of Gratiano [who is truly an awesome vampire] and a merged
> Lucita [who effectively costs 9 pool or more to influence out anyway].
> This goes back to my orginal point about Lasombra decks strats being
> limited due to the generally high capacity of their useful vampires. A
> large contingent of bloat cards MUST be included in every Lasombra
> deck as a result, because the vamps are so damned expensive.
Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are
incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah).
> > I would argue that POT combat is not signifigantly more effective than
> > pot combat. IG/Disarm is not functionally different between the two.
>
> I would strongly disagree. Potence combat decks cannot rely solely
> upon a big Pot strike/Disarm combo. Most Pot combat decks I've seen
> have 1, maybe 2 disarms. These decks must win by attrition - striking
> for massive levels of damage repeatedly with Immortal Grapples to
> overcome fortitude and SCE defense strats. I'm sure Peter Bajika could
> argue this point far better than I, but my personal experiences lead
> me to believe that you're dead wrong here.
AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I
usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump.
> > I would do this by torporizing all of my preys minions or by
> > torporizing all of my preys untapped minions or by torporizing every
> > minion that blocked me. This creates an atmosphere of fear.
>
> Meanwhile, those gravrobs are clogging your hand while you wait for
> all his minions to die. Additionally, your grandprey is not being
> touched by his ass-raped predator and is winning the game - a problem
> with any rush deck when it gets flown by a "block me and f*cking die"
> type pilot. [I used to be one]
FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush.
> You will need stealth to get your gravrobs through. Otherwise, you'll
> destroy your prey's minions so he can deal no pressure to his own
> prey, and in the time it takes to oust him, your grandprey is
> sweeping. The best way to do it would be with pro stealth, although
> this becomes mighty expensive, mighty fast, considering the 2 blood
> you play to graverob or rescue, all the blood you're paying for your
> pro stealth, the blood you play for your claws in combat and the fact
> that you're not Tasting back anything because you're relying on
> scrtaches, not big hits, to put your mark down.
You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you
are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+
minions who are not weenies.
> > If I really wanted stealth in a Pro/Pot/Dom deck I would use
> > Seductions and Earth Controls.
>
> Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and
> the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you
> recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do.
Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely.
> > Also I have access to titles (i.e. Lazevernius and Fransisco) to
> > defeat Bloodhunts if I attempt to diablerize if really do want to bolt
> > on a discipline. There are plently of pot/pro weenies that can fill
> > out the crypt.
>
> Again, this is sounding less and less like a Lasombra deck, and more a
> mishmash of pot/pro vamps. I didn't doubt Tabitha''s utility in a deck
> like this. However, is it Lasombra?
Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on.
Dear Santa,
For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters,
stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to
shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan.
I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a
candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it
into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win.
Thanks,
Noodleboy
Why don't you try that.
> > If you really need stealth then Thetmes can cloak the gathering every
> > one of your other vampires. Generally Stealth and Rush don't exist in
> > the same decks as they perform opposite functions.
>
> I thought the whole point of Henri's inclusion in this deck was to
> graverob? You really think you're going to pull off a Graverobbing
> with any regularity with only 1 stealth?
I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to
me.
> Best of luck, matey.
Thanks, I'll need it next weekend.
> >There are 7
> > vampires with qui/dom that seems like the basis for a pretty good
> > crypt. It may not be a tourney champion, but it looks like fun. Three
> > of those have thaumaturgy so Rutor Hands for multiple actions. Three
> > of those have superior OBF so Cloaks are availible. So off the cuff I
> > would make a stealth bleed deck with Perfect Clarity and Deed to the
> > Hearts Desire,
>
> With Henri? What are you smoking?
The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it.
> > or I could make a rush deck with tastes of death, high
> > ground, and fake outs.
>
> With Henri? Why the hell would you bother? You could achive more in
> the same deck with Harika!
You should probably include Harika in the same deck, but Henri allows
you to graverob.
> > Thetmes and Henri
> >
> > Deck Name: What I can do at work
> > Created By: Norman S. Brown, Jr.
> > Description: Multirush using Thetmes and Henri Lavenant. Untap using
> > Precognisant Mobility. Graverob unfortunant victims and Blood Doll
> > them. Foul Blood anyone who is hunting.
>
> Okay, problems that I can see scanning this in 30 seconds:
>
> You have no maneuvers aside from your rush actions. Guns, bats, hell,
> even Fake Outs will own you.
> You have no bleed, no Fames, no Tensions. Therefore, you have no means
> by which to actually oust your prey, aside bleeding for 1 lots and
> lots.
> Cloak the gathering will not be enough to pull off a Graverobbing.
> You have no means to prevent damage, whatsoever. Sadie could take out
> your whole deck with one claw.
> Pentex. Why?
>
> I can continue if you wish. Needless to say, I think this deck would
> be fun for all of about 30 minutes, until it had it's ass handed to it
> and you packed it up and never played it again.
Well, at least you're having fun.
> > > No grand finale do I see. Smoke and mirrors and that is all.
> >
> > That is because you have to think outside the box.
>
> I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see.
That is probably because Thetmes isn't a Lasombra <sar>
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
David Cherryholmes
> What was that deck supposed to do anyway?
Brinksmanship. Don't recall if I ever got a Harbinger out, what with
all the bleedings and the beatings and the stealings.
> I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare.
Neither can I. This year's GenCon was no Week of Nightmares, at least
not for me. This weekend, with everyone staying in the same place,
should be a lot closer to it.
You and I are splitting a room, as per the email I got this morning.
--
Cameron
> > any type of basis in reality, Torn/FoD and Shadow Strike. This
> > doesn't work with Darkness Within, combat ends to quickly for that
> > card to be useful. It can work with Black Meta, but that's it.
> > You're better off using DOM/OBT TB/DW/SStrikes
>
> Hmm, let's see.
>
> Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press
mentioned as the best OBT/POT can do. Still loses to and S:CE... IE
- this is piss poor combat. It suffers from setup lag (equiping the
BM, prerange problems gotta play a TS/DW, then loses them if combat
ends.) IE... it's like Ravnos Combat without the intercept and
prevents and freakdrives.
BUT, why the Torn? you've got 2 presses, why not just more of the
same... it gains you more blood off the DW after all. So OBT is good,
POT can help, maybe.
> Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press
see above. except now we're burning even more blood before the S:CE
step.
> Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press
this I just don't get. POT strikes sould be able to send people to
torpor in one good hit, then you have a press from IG, and hit again.
CEL additionals are good because they're a combat card. You don't
have to spend 2 blood and a blockable action to equip them. The OBT
here is gravy that brings up your capacity, and makes your combat deck
weaker.
> Black Met/Double Entomb/
>
> Add Decapitates if you think you need them.
Oh, if i need to I can add POT to OBT, which is ok without it. Or DOM
and OBT stealth to go and get that full torporized minion, for the
same blood cost.
> A wonderful world it is, that you live in.
Yes it is, pity you will not join me.
> > OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that
> > you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step
> > (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't
> > lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the
> > range that's wrong for your deck)
>
> See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others.
You're certain? Good for you. <9th grade math teacher> Now show
you're proof. </9th grade math teacher> I see the decks above as
proof that POT/OBT is a bastardized marriage at best, and likely to be
useless overall.
> > There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In
> > the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so
> > can Graverobbing, Amaranth....
>
> Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
> requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
> Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
stealth... in an OBT deck. Where will we find that? dom... on the
Lasombra! We'll never see... Nevermind.
> > I'd hazard a guess, that OBT was chosen over POT because there are 5
> > other clans with POT in the game, one and a half (EuroBru) that have
> > POT/DOM and enough weenies have pot.
>
> Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses".
Then why are you having a discussion about this? Why didn't you just
entitle this thread "Noodleboy vents his spleen about the lack of POT
in the Lasombra" and let us all move along? Why do you think pot is
the lasombra's third discipline? do you think LSJ has a personal
vendetta against you? Can you come up with a real answer to the
arugement above?
> > again, probably on purpose, b/c to many weenies with pot is a bad
> > thing, like to many weenies with dom, pre, or any other damn
> > discipline. As for a POT/obt Tabitha, there hasn't been a 4cap with
> > POT made since Sabbat that doesn't have a huge drawback (hi Chas),
> > probably to keep Peter Bakija from having a heart attack. I don't
> > expect to see anymore until G4, if then.
>
> I would settle for a 5 pointer. Hell, i'd settle for another 6
> pointer, so long as they at least have obt. Shit, at this stage, I'd
> even settle for a 7 pointer. To me, this is not an outrageous request.
> Certainly not when already viable strats [ie, PRE vote] are still
> being fleshed out.
May your wishes be granted, but again probably not in G2-3
> > > Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
> > > fool.
> >
> > sorry no wink function.
>
> Fool it is, then.
Oh, so I tell you I was joking, and I'm a fool... Fine I'll be the
wise fool, you be the jackass trying to convince the world that your
vision of reality is the only proper one.
> > > Refute this statement, if you can. Find me another Clan that has had
> > > any of it's in Clan disciplines so thoroughly ignored as Potence has
> > > been in Clan Lasombra. If you can.
> >
> > FOR in the !Ventrue and Ravnos, lots of inferior, little superior till
> > high caps.
>
> Stats, please? "lots" and "little" are not enough to back your
> statements.
<sigh> http://monger.vekn.org/
!ven FOR: 6,7,7,7,7,8,9,10
Ravnos FOR: 5,6,6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11
Ravnos CHI/FOR:6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11
Why is this? Weenies with FOR are powerful, and have been limited
since Jyhad
> > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat.
>
> "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"?
Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines?
> > perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck
> > now.
>
> Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell,
> what would your crypt be?
You keep saying this a lot. In the good tournement winning version of
the deck, I don't use Fran.
2x Lisette POT/pro
2x Ilse POT/pro
2x Henry Taylor POT/pro
2x Tabitha Fisk pot/pro
1x Agatha POT
1x Hugo POT
1x Paul DiCarlo pot
1x Arnold Simpson pot
In the storyline version (now available)
3x Lisette
2x Tabitha
2x Cameron
2x Hester Reed
1x Ilse
2x Henry
and I add some GtU for the larger crypt size.
> > you say that qui is of no use in a deck that is primarily DOM/OBT
> > bleed... the primary use of the Lasombra, right? How does POT help
> > that deck work. How does pot help that deck work. How does that deck
> > need anything but DOM and OBT to function. You made a strawman to
> > attack (qui doesn't help you bleed, except that it does now with Deed
> > the Hearts Desire) I'm pointing out that POT does not either (and
> > even less than qui.)
>
> Indeed. I never said POT would help a bleed deck. I started by saying
> qui was a somewhat questionable addition to Henri. You stated that
> between him, Tobias and Gratiano to Govern, you have quite a Bleed
> deck going. This was never refuted, nor did I mention POT. I asked how
> the f*ck qui is going to help you in this bleed deck, because the
> addition of qui to Henri is my only complaint about him.
>
> To this, you have no answer except to babble about Deed the heart's
> Desire. You're honestly going to include this card in your
> Tobias/Henri/Gratiano powerbleed deck?
No, I said that qui helps you as much as pot in a bleed deck. Then I
realized that qui IS helpful in a bleed deck, although one you
categorically denounce as stupid.
> See decks posted by other below, and the deck concepts above. If you
> can see no merit here, then there is no convincing you. Remain happy.
> Enjoy your life of bliss. Everything is super.
Yep. I still don't think that POT is helpful in an OBT combat deck.
> > DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with
> > Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI,
> > Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI.
>
> Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here?
As another DOM/qui vamp. Yes I am. Especially with GtU at suprior.
> Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without
> cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going
> to play Fake Outs?
Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
fool.
YOU spend the best part of a decade above going into how Great Shadow
Step and Darkness Within are. If I'm making an OBT/qui deck, I'm not
using them why?
And having read The Archon of the Swamps excellent post I have to
revise myself. pot is the lasombra's fourth discipline after titles.
Just like it should be for a clan that thrives on politics, intrigue,
and convincing others to do their dirty work.
Cameron
Xian
wrote:
OBT/POT, huh?
Oldish version follows. Could be made *much* better if OBT/POT were
more viable.
Add more Shadow Step (still needs to be reprinted), throw in a few
Arms of the Abyss for dodging Tzimisce, a few Black Metamorphosis for
added goodness. A few Wakes & Deflections if you like. Previously
much more combat-y. Both could be much better with better pot/obt.
Deck Name: Might Makes Right v2
Created By: Xian
Description: Lasombra Bruise/Bleed/Vote.
Storyline legal. Consider adding Lisette Vizquel.
Crypt: (10 cards, Min: 12, Max: 26, Avg: 4.80)
----------------------------------------------
2 Mitchell obt pot 2, Pander
2 Ignacio dom obt pot 4, Lasombra
1 Chas Giovanni Tello DOM POT 4, Giovanni
2 Aurora Van Brande dom for OBT pot 6, Lasombra
2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra
1 Lucita cel DOM FOR OBT pot 8, Lasombra
Obviously, something is missing in the crypt, probably Lucita^, and
someone else. Have had a few problems since moving to the newest
version of eldb3.
Library: (89 cards)
-------------------
Master (13 cards)
4 Blood Doll
1 Dominate
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
1 Elysian Fields
1 Fame
2 Haven Uncovered
1 Obtenebration
1 Potence
1 Power Structure
Action (15 cards)
2 Black Metamorphosis
4 Bum's Rush
4 Govern the Unaligned
5 Political Struggle
Action Modifier (9 cards)
4 Foreshadowing Destruction
2 Shadow Play
3 Shroud of Night
Political Action (6 cards)
1 Cardinal Benediction
3 Consanguineous Boon
2 Templar
Reaction (16 cards)
7 Deflection
2 Eyes of the Night
7 Wake with Evening's Freshness
Combat (30 cards)
2 Amaranth
1 Burning Wrath
3 Disarm
7 Immortal Grapple
5 Increased Strength
6 Taste of Vitae
6 Torn Signpost
Previous version:
Deck Name: Might Makes Right
Created By: Xian
Description: Lasombra Rush with vote defense from Political Struggle.
Consider adding a couple of Entombment or GtU. Also, Chas Giovanni
Tello.
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 7, Max: 22, Avg: 3.42)
---------------------------------------------
2 Cameron dom pot 3, Lasombra
1 Chas Giovanni Tello DOM POT 4, Giovanni
1 Hasina Kesi pot 1, Caitiff
1 Ignacio dom obt pot 4, Lasombra
1 KoKo pot 2, Nosferatu
1 Lisette Vizquel DOM POT pro 6, Lasombra, Bishop
1 Lupo pot 2, Brujah
2 Mitchell obt pot 2, Pander
2 Talley aus dom OBT POT 6, Lasombra
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (14 cards)
1 Barrens, The
4 Blood Doll
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
4 Haven Uncovered
1 Obtenebration
3 Potence
Action (18 cards)
12 Bum's Rush
4 Political Struggle
2 Rampage
Combat (58 cards)
1 Burning Wrath
1 Decapitate
4 Disarm
6 Fists of Death
12 Immortal Grapple
4 Shadow Step
8 Taste of Vitae
10 Torn Signpost
12 Undead Strength
Xian
Cameron
> On 26 Nov 2003 12:05:17 -0800, orcao...@hotmail.com (Cameron)
> wrote:
>
> OBT/POT, huh?
>
> Oldish version follows. Could be made *much* better if OBT/POT were
> more viable.
>
> Add more Shadow Step (still needs to be reprinted), throw in a few
> Arms of the Abyss for dodging Tzimisce, a few Black Metamorphosis for
> added goodness. A few Wakes & Deflections if you like. Previously
> much more combat-y. Both could be much better with better pot/obt.
>
Xian, thanks. I'll look into it some more with the Milwaukee people.
Hows life in the frozen north?
Cameron
noodleboy
> should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to
> his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas.
You cannot possibly disregard Chas. He's an excellent rusher, despite
his disad. At the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have
played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's
fangs down their throat and tore their head off.
> And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to
> head, they will probably both end up in torpor.
Let's take an average capacity vampire in average POT rush deck: I'd
say 4 would be reasonable.
POT vs pot.
Both drop a Fists of Death.
Both drop a Torn Signpost.
Both Grapple.
Both hit with Pushing the limit.
POT vamp does 8 dmg. pot vamp does 5 dmg. Both are in torpor.
However, let's play a sensible collection of POT cards from the "Nos
hate you" school of thought, ie, that none of your cards should cost
you blood, so that your minions can fight just as effectively full as
empty. This strategy sees most successes amongst the Potence rush deck
school.
Both drop a Torn Signpost.
Both IG.
Both strike with Undead Strength.
POT vamp strikes for 5. pot vamp strikes for 3. POT vamp lives to
Taste. pot vamps dies screaming.
> The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah
> Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than
> of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise.
Indeed I have. The grand-daddy of all POT rush decks "The Nosferatu
hate you" by Peter Bakija is a steamroller of POT destruction that has
spawned countless imitators [My own "Beastie Boys included]. It is the
quintessential POT deck, which pretty much taught me everything I know
about mono POT combat.
It's achived at the Lasombra's site in it's various incarnations.
Check it out. Definitely worth a look.
> Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are
> incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah).
Exactly. This is precisely why the lasombra need a mid-point range of
POT vampires.
> AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I
> usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump.
The decks of peter's that i've seen don't use that many Disarms. 6-8
is far too extreme in my opinion. I find even 3 clogging my hand in
"Beastie Boys". Sending vamps to torpor isn't a problem. having them
bounced right back out again is. hence why i play with more Pulled
Fangs than Disarms nowadays.
> FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush.
Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker
in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and
f*cking die" mentality.
> You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you
> are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+
> minions who are not weenies.
4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines.
Thus, if your grandprey has any kind of decent combat, the minions
you've robbed wind up in torpor during their first 1 point bleed.
Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will
realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's
minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds
will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through
his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start
rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep
your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts
[forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable
demise before your first vp.
> > Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and
> > the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you
> > recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do.
>
> Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely.
Again, see my points about blood problems. But yes, pro stealth is the
best solution.
> Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on.
Again, my entire opening tirade again Tabitha, which started this
whole sordid affair was based upon a Clan lasombra perspective, given
that this is a lasombra newsletter, albeit unofficial.
I will probably stick her in my Jalan and Co black hand POT/PRO deck
to hold the line. Will that be a Lasombra deck? No. Will i stick her
in any lasombra deck? No. Because the only deck I see her feasibly
being good in [pot/obt rush] can't be made because of our lack of mid
point POT vamps. And besides, her artwork just plain sucks. :)
> Dear Santa,
> For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters,
> stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to
> shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan.
> I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a
> candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it
> into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win.
>
> Thanks,
> Noodleboy
>
> Why don't you try that.
Heh. Most amusing. Why don't you try gobbling my chopper?
> I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to
> me.
This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess.
> Thanks, I'll need it next weekend.
You're welcome. :)
> > With Henri? What are you smoking?
>
> The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it.
Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds
like crack to me. Or recycled tyres.
> Well, at least you're having fun.
There is more fun to be had than with a 30 minute 1 trick pony. Trust
me.
> > I live there. No Henri/Thetmes dream team do I see.
>
> That is probably because Thetmes isn't a Lasombra <sar>
He's not?
n
noodleboy
>
> mentioned as the best OBT/POT can do. Still loses to and S:CE... IE
> - this is piss poor combat. It suffers from setup lag (equiping the
> BM,
Bm not necessary. Icing on the cake which pays off in the long run.
prerange problems gotta play a TS/DW, then loses them if combat
> ends.)
Yes. SCE poses a problem for this deck, unless you start throwing in
Thoughts Betrayed, which becomes problematic in terms of blood.
However, that's a question of metagames.
> BUT, why the Torn? you've got 2 presses, why not just more of the
> same... it gains you more blood off the DW after all. So OBT is good,
> POT can help, maybe.
More of the same means using more Shadow Strikes. Blood becomes a
problem if someone has burned your Path. Easier to TS and take them
out in one round [hopefully] or if they survive, press to second and
simply punch for 3 + 3.
> > Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press
>
> see above. except now we're burning even more blood before the S:CE
> step.
Burning blood? Darkness pays for itself at the very least. SS doesn't
have to be used at OBT unless you're up against a very manuever deck.
2 straight maneuvers should be enough to get you to long.
> this I just don't get. POT strikes sould be able to send people to
> torpor in one good hit,
Not always. Not at all.
> then you have a press from IG, and hit again.
Which means you've been hit by your opponent at least twice. Better
for combat not to reach the second round, yes?
> CEL additionals are good because they're a combat card. You don't
> have to spend 2 blood and a blockable action to equip them.
1 blood with path. Permanent effects always surpass 1 time effects for
efficiency.
> The OBT here is gravy that brings up your capacity, and makes your combat deck weaker.
In any POT heavy combat deck, a major problem that you must face is
card attrition. 90 cards isn't alot when you're throwing down 4 or 5
cards per combat. A permanent additional strike and press would
certainly help to alleviate this problem. Particularly if all of your
4 or 5 vamps have it.
> Oh, if i need to I can add POT to OBT, which is ok without it. Or DOM
> and OBT stealth to go and get that full torporized minion, for the
> same blood cost.
Yes, that one way to do it. I do it all the time. Straight POT/OBT
rush is another way to do it, if we had the minions.
> Yes it is, pity you will not join me.
No thanks. Appreciate the invite though.
> > See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others.
>
> You're certain? Good for you. <9th grade math teacher> Now show
> you're proof.
Well, something involving multiple shades, grapples at POT strikes
springs to mind.
Shadow Strikes and Well Aimed Cars? .... hmm, maybe not. :)
</9th grade math teacher> I see the decks above as
> proof that POT/OBT is a bastardized marriage at best, and likely to be
> useless overall.
This must be some new definition of "proof" and "useless" that Mr
Oxford and I are unfamiliar with. Try 10th grade. They teach you a
little more.
> > Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
> > requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
> > Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
>
> stealth... in an OBT deck. Where will we find that?
Stealth in a RUSH deck is what we're talking about here. And that is a
rare thing indeed.
> dom... on the Lasombra! We'll never see... Nevermind.
You are not comprehending. You are grasping at the threads. Look to
the rope, my son.
> > Alas. I am not interested in your "guesses".
>
> Then why are you having a discussion about this?
Because you disagreed with me? However, in disagreeing with me, you're
required to present stats or personal opinions, not guesses as to the
motivations of other people. Your guesses as to the motivations of the
design team do not interest me in the slightest. They are
*irrelevant*.
>Why didn't you just entitle this thread "Noodleboy vents his spleen
about the lack of POT in the Lasombra" and let us all move along?
Heh. That would've been pretty funny. However, that wasn't how the
story began. Merely the detour it has taken on it's way to the place
all dead threads go.
> Why do you think pot is the lasombra's third discipline?
That doesn't matter at all, my lad. Why I think someone did something
is irrelevant. Hasn't Derek taught you that yet?
> do you think LSJ has a personal vendetta against you?
Erm...
> Can you come up with a real answer to the
> arugement above?
Which argument would that be, my son? The argument that I'm really not
interested in your opinion so I shouldn't have started a discussion
with you [which I didn't], the arguement that this entire thread is
the result of my paranoid delusion that LSJ wants to punish me somehow
[which it isn't] or the argument that my chopper is just too damn much
for you to gobble, so I should never have invited you to? [which, I
must confess, I did].
> May your wishes be granted, but again probably not in G2-3
Alas then.
> Oh, so I tell you I was joking, and I'm a fool... Fine I'll be the
> wise fool, you be the jackass trying to convince the world that your
> vision of reality is the only proper one.
Jackass? That's that show with the guys crashing trolleys into
incontinent old ladies, right?
> <sigh> http://monger.vekn.org/
>
> !ven FOR: 6,7,7,7,7,8,9,10
> Ravnos FOR: 5,6,6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11
> Ravnos CHI/FOR:6,8,8,9,9,9,10,10,11
Excellent. Now compare these figures to the POT spread on Clan
Lasombra and give your lug a big ol' chug for proving my damn point.
> > > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat.
> >
> > "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"?
>
> Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines?
No foolin' ma? Hot damn, that's an incredible insight. "Each clan has
a discipline that's ignored more than their other two disciplines."
Yippee.
Now, complete the following statement:
The clan that has had it's third discipline ignored more than any
other Clan in the game is....
Bonus points if you can name the discipline.
> > > perfectly possiable to make a POT/pro storyline legal Lasombra deck
> > > now.
> >
> > Without Francisco, whom you discounted as being too pricey? Pray tell,
> > what would your crypt be?
>
> You keep saying this a lot. In the good tournement winning version of
> the deck, I don't use Fran.
>
> 2x Lisette POT/pro
> 2x Ilse POT/pro
> 2x Henry Taylor POT/pro
> 2x Tabitha Fisk pot/pro
> 1x Agatha POT
> 1x Hugo POT
> 1x Paul DiCarlo pot
> 1x Arnold Simpson pot
Yes. And yet this is not a Lasombra deck. Nor is it tourney legal
until the 17th of December, so how you're winning tourneys with it now
is beyond me - unless they're those unoffical tourneys you play
between you and a couple of buds? Or are you just making this up as
you go along?
> In the storyline version (now available)
>
> 3x Lisette
> 2x Tabitha
> 2x Cameron
> 2x Hester Reed
> 1x Ilse
> 2x Henry
You've sacrificed flexibility and a copy of starting reciever Ilse.
You are happy with this? Is this a better crypt than what you had, or
are you banging that square peg again?
> No, I said that qui helps you as much as pot in a bleed deck. Then I
> realized that qui IS helpful in a bleed deck, although one you
> categorically denounce as stupid.
Answer the question. Are you honestly going to include Deed the
Heart's Desire in your Gratiano/Henri/Tobias deck?
If you have any sense, no, of course you're not. So stop talking
shite.
> Yep. I still don't think that POT is helpful in an OBT combat deck.
Well shit, looks like we disagree. I'd invite you to gobble my
chopper, but...y'know....
> > > DOM/qui/OBT is three prevent people from blocking disciplines. with
> > > Seduction/DeedTHD/BoN. Thetmes has dom/QUI/pot, Yazid has dom/QUI,
> > > Ur-Shulgi has DOM/QUI.
> >
> > Indeed. And you're going to bother trying to squeeze henri in here?
>
> As another DOM/qui vamp. Yes I am. Especially with GtU at suprior.
Heh. And who the hell are you going to GtU down to with Henri?
Methinks you haven't thought this through.
> > Indeed. And how exactly is Henri going to get to long range without
> > cel? You going to bolt another discipline onto him, or are you going
> > to play Fake Outs?
>
> Tell me you're joking? Because if you're not, you're being a damn
> fool.
>
> YOU spend the best part of a decade above going into how Great Shadow
> Step and Darkness Within are. If I'm making an OBT/qui deck, I'm not
> using them why?
Ah, okay. So you're talking about making an OBT/qui deck. With ONE
vampire who has both disciplines, one at inferior. 12 copies of him in
the crypt, right? My apologies. I didn't realise your deck concepts
had become so ...colourful.
What's next? OBT/ANI? Wheeeee.
noodleboy
Derek Ray
nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about:
>Hmm, let's see.
>
>Black Met/Signpost/Darkness Within/Double Shadow Strike/press
>Black Met/Darkness Within/Shadow Step/Double Lid/press
>Black Met/Signpost/Grapple/Double Undead Strength/press
>Black Met/Double Entomb/
Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black
Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less
enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards,
and have yet to hold one in my hands.
Now, even aside from that, let's have a look:
#1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In
addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the
Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes. Because it's
ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged
combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making
it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things
considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back
to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding
ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing.
#2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step;
it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two
super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU
own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd
like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you
really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms
over.
#3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big
strikes" thing.
#4 doesn't even require Potence.
And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires;
OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set
range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can
Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes
with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the
rare thing comes into play again).
>> OBT is good combat. POT is good combat. How many of the cards that
>> you mention above work in an OBT/POT deck? Black Meta. Shadow Step
>> (IF you own enough, and IF you can afford the 2 blood cost that isn't
>> lowerable by the path, and IF they're packing manuvers to get the the
>> range that's wrong for your deck)
>
>See four deck possibilities above. I am certain there are others.
Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/
Black Meta/Grapple/Signpost is much more solid, but we already have
POT/additional strikes in the game.
>> There is NO POT card that helps you to play an Entombment. NONE. In
>> the entire game. Decapitate can be used AFTER an Entombment, but so
>> can Graverobbing, Amaranth....
>
>Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
>requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
>Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down. Massive titled
vamp support; I've been tempted to make the Arms/Disarm/Munchie deck for
a long time now.
Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when
you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't
do damage directly.
-- Derek
"From time to time, the tree of liberty must
be watered with the blood of idiots." - unknown
Emmit Svenson
> caps than the Lasombra. In a match-up between POT and obt/pot vamps,
> all of the Obten cards you've described aside from Black Met are
> nullified by an IG, leaving a match up between a POT vamp, and a pot
> vamp with an additional strike. I know where my money would be. The
> pot vamp will be in torpor before it ever sees the additional strike
> phase.
Assuming both are close range decks, yes. But the Giovanni don't have
access to any maneuvers but Fake Out and Thrown Gate. Banjoko is a
great vamp for Thoughts Betrayed/Shadow Step(inf)/Sewer Lid--make that
two sewer lids with a Black Metamorphasis. He doesn't really need the
TB against IG Giovanni, but what the heck, you might have a gate or
lid, he can taste it back, and he's got it in the deck for S:CE.
If you're playing mono POT, you can probably beat a Lasombra combat
deck. But Giovanni combat versus Lasombra combat is a more even
proposition.
XZealot
"noodleboy" <nood...@iprimus.net.au> wrote in message
news:e72ec49.03112...@posting.google.com...
> > Yes the Giovanni have more POT across their mid to low caps but you
> > should disregard Chas Tello Giovanni as a strong POT rush vamp due to
> > his handicap. Your spread is 6,7,7,8,8,9,9,10,10,11 without Chas.
>
> You cannot possibly disregard Chas. He's an excellent rusher, despite
> his disad. At the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have
> played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's
> fangs down their throat and tore their head off.
Actually you can disregard him. Your prey isn't the only one to be able to
toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well.
> > And as to your opinion about a pot and a POT vampire going head to
> > head, they will probably both end up in torpor.
<snip accurate examples of why Pushing the Limit sees more play than Undead
Strength.>
> > The only monoclan POT deck I have ever seen work is the EuroBrujah
> > Princes, and that is more of a functionality of the Prince title than
> > of POT. Correct me if you have seen otherwise.
>
> Indeed I have. The grand-daddy of all POT rush decks "The Nosferatu
> hate you" by Peter Bakija is a steamroller of POT destruction that has
> spawned countless imitators [My own "Beastie Boys included]. It is the
> quintessential POT deck, which pretty much taught me everything I know
> about mono POT combat.
>
> It's achived at the Lasombra's site in it's various incarnations.
> Check it out. Definitely worth a look.
I have checked it out and for the most part it uses pot rather than POT
vampires or at least very least uses them in equal proportions.
> > Generally non-multi-rush deck archtype and large capacity vampires are
> > incompatible (exception, see EuroBrujah).
>
> Exactly. This is precisely why the lasombra need a mid-point range of
> POT vampires.
>
> > AFAIK, Peter's decks and most other pot decks use 4+ Disarms. I
> > usually use 6-8 in my pot decks because it is a one card trump.
>
> The decks of peter's that i've seen don't use that many Disarms. 6-8
> is far too extreme in my opinion. I find even 3 clogging my hand in
> "Beastie Boys". Sending vamps to torpor isn't a problem. having them
> bounced right back out again is. hence why i play with more Pulled
> Fangs than Disarms nowadays.
You are misquoting me. I said that Peter's decks use 4. Check any of the
pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that
they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with
the 3 blood cost.
> > FYI, a blocked graverob is the same as a rush.
>
> Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker
> in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and
> f*cking die" mentality.
The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn
of it.
> > You destroy your prey's minions then add them to your own and now you
> > are creating a critical mass to thump your grandprey by having 4+
> > minions who are not weenies.
>
> 4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines.
> Thus, if your grandprey has any kind of decent combat, the minions
> you've robbed wind up in torpor during their first 1 point bleed.
Why would you be bleeding your grandprey? If you meant to say that once you
have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former
grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be
treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders,
but apparently that isn't very obvious to you.
> Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will
> realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's
> minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds
> will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through
> his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start
> rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep
> your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts
> [forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable
> demise before your first vp.
Strange, it seems to work pretty well.
> > > Seductions would be problematic, given the capacity of your vamps and
> > > the rarity of DOM. However, not impossible to do, particularly if you
> > > recruit Francisco, which the original poster refused to do.
> >
> > Earth Control still works and the two together work nicely.
>
> Again, see my points about blood problems. But yes, pro stealth is the
> best solution.
> > Oh, so your a purist! I didn't realize that you had your blinders on.
>
<snip wailing about how cruel life is>
> > Dear Santa,
> > For Christmas this year I want my Lasombra to be the best voters,
> > stealth bleeders, pot combat, and everything else clan. I want to
> > shelve all my other cards and just play with one clan, the best clan.
> > I want them to be the best of the best. No other clan should hold a
> > candle to them. I can't believe that no-goodnik LSJ didn't right it
> > into the rules that if I play Lasombra then I automatically win.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Noodleboy
> >
> > Why don't you try that.
>
> Heh. Most amusing. Why don't you try gobbling my chopper?
Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles.
Happy Thanksgiving!
> > I do it all the time at zero stealth, so 1 stealth seems like gravy to
> > me.
>
> This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess.
>
> > Thanks, I'll need it next weekend.
>
> You're welcome. :)
>
> > > With Henri? What are you smoking?
> >
> > The good stuff, makes you jealous doesn't it.
>
> Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds
> like crack to me. Or recycled tyres.
Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him.
--
noodleboy
> Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less
> enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards,
> and have yet to hold one in my hands.
I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE
vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned
six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all.
But, aside from that:
> #1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In
> addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the
> Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes.
Yes, you need a Path. Or a taste in hand. Not hard to achieve, surely?
> Because it's ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making
> it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things
> considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back
> to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding
> ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing.
It's effectiveness depends entirely on the environment you're in, as
with all decks. I could see it doing rather well. The point is, we'll
never know unless the Lasombra vamps are given POT.
> #2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step;
> it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two
> super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU
> own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd
> like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you
> really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms
> over.
POT for the press, which you may not have, depending on the levels of
Obten on the fictitious crypt. As for rarity, again, the Shadow Steps
are out there if you want them. There are currently 17 for trade on
the Succubus Club [not to mention 30 Black mets].
They are harder to get than most cards, granted. But impossible? Not
by a long shot. But perhaps the "super-rarity" of these two Obten
cards needs to be addressed, as has been suggested by others on other
threads.
> #3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big
> strikes" thing.
Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By
this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"?
> #4 doesn't even require Potence.
As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required".
> And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires;
> OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set
> range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can
> Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes
> with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the
> rare thing comes into play again).
Only one vampire currently can set range and punch for lots. Caliean.
I think it would be a very big deal for an entire clan to be able to
do it.
> Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/
Indeed. Alas, I think otherwise. Point is, we won't know until we try,
and at the moment we can't even begin to try.
> >Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
> >requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
> >Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
>
> The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down.
Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there
- Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt.
> Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when
> you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't
> do damage directly.
Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9
of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the
original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have
their merits.
noodleboy
David Cherryholmes
wrote:
>Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker
>in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and
>f*cking die" mentality.
It's not wasted. It's a dual-use rush. Either it's a rush, and it
doesn't matter who they block with b/c that's who they would've
blocked the rush with anyway, or you gain control of a minion *for
free*. I'm not sure what you're referring to in your other post, but
I can't see how it supports GR being a wasted card slot.
>4+ minions who in all likelihood don't have any of your disciplines.
You're playing dominate; in all likelihood they do.
>Additionally, despite your assertions, the 5 or 6 turns it will
>realistically take you to destroy and graverob all of your prey's
>minions and then bleed him out of the game with massed 1 point bleeds
Why do they have to be bleeds for one? Can't this be bully-bleed?
Nor do you need *all* your prey's minions. Bleeds get through
sometimes even before your prey's ready region is a wasteland.
>will see your grandprey probably oust his prey, and be halfway through
>his next prey [you, in a 4 player]. Unless of course you want to start
>rushing across table before you've even got your first oust to keep
>your grandprey "in check", which means fighting a war on three fronts
>[forwards, backwards and across table] and your almost inevitable
>demise before your first vp.
The closest personal experience I have to the deck we're talking about
is Thetmes with dominate weenies. When playing that, yes, I have
found myself going forward with my (often zero stealth) bleed game,
and making surgical strikes around the table while doing so. Usually
it's the predator or prey, but sometimes on the cusp of an oust, it
becomes grand predator or prey.
>This surprises me immensely. But, metagames differ, I guess.
They certainly do.
AL
>
>
> Assuming both are close range decks, yes. But the Giovanni don't have
> access to any maneuvers but Fake Out and Thrown Gate. Banjoko is a
> great vamp for Thoughts Betrayed/Shadow Step(inf)/Sewer Lid--make that
> two sewer lids with a Black Metamorphasis. He doesn't really need the
> TB against IG Giovanni, but what the heck, you might have a gate or
> lid, he can taste it back, and he's got it in the deck for S:CE.
Ans assuming that the Lasombra player has been around for a few years,
and has used moderate sum of money to his cards, he is likely to have
zero Shadow Steps (I bought 2 or 3 boxes of Sabbat and have 2 of them,
which do not give me very much options), so his maneuvering will be
limited to Fake Out, Thrown Gate and to lesser extent Darkness Within
and Eyes of the Night (and 2 last require OBT to get a maneuver).
-Antero
Derek Ray
nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy) mumbled something about:
>> Every single strategy mentioned here is based around Black
>> Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less
>> enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards,
>> and have yet to hold one in my hands.
>
>I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE
>vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned
>six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all.
>But, aside from that:
What this doesn't address is how much the owners want for them. I am
not willing to part with my testicles for that particular rare, but
oddly it seems that everyone wants far more than they're actually worth.
One of the reasons I never trade online, and rarely trade as-is.
>> #1 is elaborate and almost entirely based around Obtenebration. In
>> addition, it costs a ridiculous amount of blood if you don't have the
>> Path in play, and is very reliant on the Shadow Strikes.
>
>Yes, you need a Path. Or a taste in hand. Not hard to achieve, surely?
The Taste won't be effective if you can't actually pay for all the cards
in the first place.
And as far as the Path goes... We burn Paths around here, constantly.
It's almost a mantra of sorts: "shoot the retainers, burn the Paths."
Why? Because a deck using a Path is clearly using a lot of cards which
cost blood, and removing that Path is going to seriously hurt the deck
in question, as well as potentially cost that deck another pool to put
the Path back in play... IF it has one in hand.
The above decks don't really have a good solution to defending the
Paths, unless you're playing intercept-combat with the Lasombra, which
while not impossible to pull off is a complicated affair.
>> Because it's ranged damage, it's vulnerable to all the typical weaknesses of ranged combat, including getting shot with a .44 a whole bunch and never making
>> it to the press step... or the ever-present S:CE. All things
>> considered, if I'm going to rip off a Signpost, I'm going to come back
>> to close with it and Grapple; it's just far more effective. Adding
>> ineffective strategies to the game is probably a bad thing.
>
>It's effectiveness depends entirely on the environment you're in, as
>with all decks. I could see it doing rather well. The point is, we'll
>never know unless the Lasombra vamps are given POT.
I could see it failing miserably, actually. Lots of cards to set up, at
least one action to get the Black Meta on in the first place (so you
need some stealth as well since your combat just isn't very scary when
you're only 'punching' for 3 at range)... and then very little guarantee
that you'll consistently be effective with it, because of Fortitude,
S:CE, etc.
I know that at the GenCon qualifier, my predator was playing a Black
Metamorphosis/Fortitude/Disarm deck. It torporized exactly one of my
vampires, when I Rushed backwards once to nominally keep my end of a
deal with his predator. (I used a 2-cap with inferior pot because I
knew he had piles of Fortitude.)
It bled me ... twice for 3 each. Then it was ousted. I wasn't
impressed with Black Metamorphosis then, and I'm not likely to be any
more impressed with it in the future. Neat card -- not the best use of
an action, even when you ARE Lucita and have Freak Drive.
>> #2 is much cheaper, but relies on ANOTHER super-rare named Shadow Step;
>> it's a tossup whether more of these exist than Black Meta. Two
>> super-rares in one combo? Who you kidding? I don't care how many YOU
>> own, the average player will never be able to use this. Oh, and I'd
>> like to note that the Sewer Lids only require pot, not POT, so you
>> really don't even need the OBT/POT vampires that you're all up in arms
>> over.
>
>POT for the press, which you may not have, depending on the levels of
>Obten on the fictitious crypt. As for rarity, again, the Shadow Steps
>are out there if you want them. There are currently 17 for trade on
>the Succubus Club [not to mention 30 Black mets].
Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice. Pressing with
mandatory-range combat (Lids) generally stinks even worse unless you're
just chock full of maneuvers, and Shadow Steps are -expensive- and not
affected by the Path.
It's been getting a lot of support lately, but after throwing two Lids
at someone, you should really have them in torpor or close enough that
you have their attention -- without needing to worry about the "I fifth
self" action anymore, it's not as critical to completely erase an 8-cap
on the first turn.
I'd much rather run the deck as one action for Black Meta, Freak Drive,
then Darkness Within/Lid/Lid every time, with Darksight/Eyes of the
Night to give me some other options. I'd avoid pressing, to save on
card space and getting-dead-in-round-2.
>They are harder to get than most cards, granted. But impossible? Not
>by a long shot. But perhaps the "super-rarity" of these two Obten
>cards needs to be addressed, as has been suggested by others on other
>threads.
I don't think we need Shadow Step in the game, personally; limiting the
effect to one vampire and one clan (Gargoyles) is fine by me.
"Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the
Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the
Beast.
>> #3 adds nothing to the game: POT/CEL already can do the "additional big
>> strikes" thing.
>
>Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By
>this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"?
He added a 7-cap with all the in-clans, something the Lasombra have
desperately needed for a long time. While he did get inferior pot, the
superior PRE more than makes up for it -- previously, the only Lasombra
with PRE were ridiculously huge vamps, and while you could go fetch
Jessica or Sela, they didn't have the advantage of the Lasombra clan
cards.
>> #4 doesn't even require Potence.
>
>As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required".
And blow 2 more blood out the window after spending HOW much?
>> And perhaps this is the real reason we aren't seeing OBT/POT vampires;
>> OBT/POT combat doesn't add anything to the game. Big deal, they can set
>> range, Grapple, and punch for lots. HOW many clans currently can
>> Grapple and punch for lots? Don't need OBT for that. Multiple strikes
>> with Black Meta? Already available with CEL - viva variety! (and the
>> rare thing comes into play again).
>
>Only one vampire currently can set range and punch for lots. Caliean.
>I think it would be a very big deal for an entire clan to be able to
>do it.
I agree with Norm's view here -- the Lasombra are already excellent
voters and bleeders. They don't need to be excellent fighters too;
we've already got plenty of bruise-and-vote (Nossies) and
bruise-and-bleed (EuroBrujah, several others) clans.
>> Actually, only two, and both of them are pretty unimpressive. =/
>
>Indeed. Alas, I think otherwise. Point is, we won't know until we try,
>and at the moment we can't even begin to try.
I don't personally see a reason to even start walking down that road,
myself. So your favourite clan can't fight with POT. So? They can
fight in several other ways. Again, viva la varietie!
Which reminds me: The Toreador are the answer to your question in
another thread. No vampire with all three in-clans at superior below a
9-cap, and only three vampires with AUS CEL below a 9-cap... two in
group 1, one in group 3.
For a clan that seems almost DESIGNED to be intercept combat, they
really can't do a very good job of it at all.
>> >Graverobbing requires another untapped minion with dom, and usually
>> >requires a stealth card to pull off. Amaranth results in a Bloodhunt.
>> >Decapitate and the vamp just *goes away*.
>>
>> The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down.
>
>Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there
>- Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt.
Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many
moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt
couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing
Amaranth.
>> Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when
>> you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't
>> do damage directly.
>
>Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9
>of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the
>original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have
>their merits.
Yeah. Grave Robbing's number one merit: it ain't Decapitate.
Tobias
> Excellent. Now compare these figures to the POT spread on Clan
> Lasombra and give your lug a big ol' chug for proving my damn point.
>
> > > > Each clan has a discipline that's ignored somewhat.
> > >
> > > "Somewhat"? What exactly constitutes "somewhat"?
> >
> > Umm... its ignored more than their other 2 disciplines?
>
> No foolin' ma? Hot damn, that's an incredible insight. "Each clan has
> a discipline that's ignored more than their other two disciplines."
> Yippee.
>
> Now, complete the following statement:
>
> The clan that has had it's third discipline ignored more than any
> other Clan in the game is....
>
> Bonus points if you can name the discipline.
I don't know the final answer yet, but it's not Lasombra and
Potence....
Some clans with less coverage: Assamites with obf, Brujah with pre,
Ravnos with ani... and there may be more, but I've got to complete my
spreadsheet first, then.
--
Tobias
Deventer
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
>On 26 Nov 2003 22:33:56 -0800, nood...@iprimus.net.au (noodleboy)
>wrote:
>
>>Yes. It's also a wasted card. It also spells the doom of the blocker
>>in a good rush deck. See my previous points about the "block me and
>>f*cking die" mentality.
>
>It's not wasted. It's a dual-use rush. Either it's a rush, and it
>doesn't matter who they block with b/c that's who they would've
>blocked the rush with anyway, or you gain control of a minion *for
>free*. I'm not sure what you're referring to in your other post, but
>I can't see how it supports GR being a wasted card slot.
I've had problems where instead of drawing a rush early on, i draw a
graverobbing. and there's no one in torpor yet. merely bad luck?
perhaps. but i'd rather have a heck of a lot less graverobbings after
that run of problems...
but that's just one anecdote to throw on the communal bonfire.
Andrea
> I agree with you, despite the 2nd place for Ravnos the year Lasombra
> won the Stroyline tourney. But we both know this isn't the point I'm
> making. I'm saying there is no clan in the game that's had one of it's
> 3 IC disciplines so thoroughly ignored as the Lasombra have had
> Potence.
>
> This has been my gripe for years. It still hasn't been addressed. To
> me, it seems a gaping hole that needs filling long before we need
> another "born to bleed" vamp like Henri, or another voter like Tobias.
>
right now to build one with very few rare cards and only 2
entombment), but in the end i think is better for a clan to have only
one discipline at inferior throughout (is this word correct?) the
cript.
even if could be clumsy put in a deck a few master discipline only of
potence it's less clumsy than stack masters discipline of various
disciplines. so until WW designers don't became all spudoratly (is
this word correct?) pro-lasombra and build at least 3 vamp, 6 or 7
caps, with all the in clans superior, this could be a good deal for
OBT DOM POT combat
Andrea
David Cherryholmes
wrote:
>I've had problems where instead of drawing a rush early on, i draw a
>graverobbing. and there's no one in torpor yet. merely bad luck?
>perhaps. but i'd rather have a heck of a lot less graverobbings after
>that run of problems...
Dunno, but there's not *that* many Graverobbings in mine. Four out of
eighty. I'm not looking to steal every vampire on the table
wholesale, I just figure getting even one off is good. But that's not
your average Assamatie deck, either; it will actually bleed the crap
out of you, so answering the Blood Curse problem is much less
necessary. If busting skulls was my main path to victory, and I had
the disciplines, I'd go up to eight graverobbings and about sixteen
rushes (and yeah, that's pretty much every action the deck can
afford).
Cameron
> > Metamorphosis, a super-rare that almost nobody has any of, much less
> > enough to build a deck with. I have purchased an awful lot of cards,
> > and have yet to hold one in my hands.
>
> I own three. Just traded for a forth last night for a bunch of CE
> vampires. They are out there if you want them. At one point i owned
> six, and I don't consider myself a fanatical trader/collector at all.
> But, aside from that:
oddly, I do own a bunch of these cards... perhaps why I think the
strategy is pants.
<snip stuff Derek answered better than I can.>
> Hmm. "Adds nothing to the game." I don't agree. But let's say i do. By
> this rationale, what exactly did Tobias "add to the game"?
A 7 cap in clan lasombra. The only clan that didn't have one. Who
was a nice addition to the clan in general and several specific decks
in particular.
> > #4 doesn't even require Potence.
>
> As i said after all 4 strats, "add Decapitations if required".
Or Graverobbing. After all then you could play stealth to a target,
kill it, untap and stealth steal it. A viable Lucita deck.
> > The Lasombra should win most bloodhunts, hands down.
>
> Not in the PRO/DOM archetype they don't. Only one titled vampire there
> - Francisco. And the original poster didn't include him in the crypt.
That's because the original poster hits people for 7 AGG. Or if that
wouldn't kill them, he punches for 7, presses from IG, IG's again and
hits them for 6 AGG. There is no need to win blood hunts when the
vamps are burned outright.
> > Grave Robbing is a bit of work to pull off, but its effect is HUGE when
> > you can; a free vampire, generally a full one since Entombment doesn't
> > do damage directly.
>
> Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9
> of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the
> original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have
> their merits.
Both cost 2 blood, one kills a vamp, one gets you that vamp. one is
only playable in combat, one can be used as an action that might even
get you into another combat (which is always good.) Decapitate is for
POT decks to kill things going to torpor that they can't let sit
around to be rescued.
Cameron, more later.
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:21:18 +1100, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com>
I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere
already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and
i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually,
you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which
works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very
well).
David Cherryholmes
> I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere
> already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and
> i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually,
> you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which
> works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very
> well).
Here you go: http://www.thepathofblood.com/displaydeck.php?deckid=73
A few cards are metagame-specific. The Diseases are in there because I
frequently play against weenie Forititude/Trap/UP *and* CEL/pot. They
could be four other combat cards of your choice, but I like actually
using Disease for a change. Second, the two skill cards are included
because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you
don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those
two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM
is less so).
Jeff Kuta
> because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you
> don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those
> two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM
> is less so).
DOM is great for Graverobbing and Deflecting. You should put a second
DOM in there for one of your nerds. ;)
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
>salem wrote:
>
>> I'd be interested in a decklist, if it hasn't been posted somewhere
>> already. I don't own enough Freak Drives for a multi-rush deck, and
>> i'm keen to get something with a strong assamite flavour to actually,
>> you know, get a vp or two. (my current is a Diversion deck..which
>> works well enough in combat, but doesn't do that ousting thing very
>> well).
>
>Here you go: http://www.thepathofblood.com/displaydeck.php?deckid=73
>
>A few cards are metagame-specific. The Diseases are in there because I
>frequently play against weenie Forititude/Trap/UP *and* CEL/pot. They
>could be four other combat cards of your choice, but I like actually
>using Disease for a change.
I like disease. and it's a little unexpected. :)
> Second, the two skill cards are included
>because I'm in a capacity arms-race with various Obeying IC's. If you
>don't think that's an issue, there are definitely better uses for those
>two master slots (although the press off the grapple is damn useful, DOM
>is less so).
so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any
Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded
my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)?
I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint...
atomweaver
> XZealot wrote:
>
> > What was that deck supposed to do anyway?
>
> Brinksmanship. Don't recall if I ever got a Harbinger out, what with
> all the bleedings and the beatings and the stealings.
>
> > I can't wait. Do you have a place to crash? I have room to spare.
>
> Neither can I. This year's GenCon was no Week of Nightmares, at least
> not for me. This weekend, with everyone staying in the same place,
> should be a lot closer to it.
>
> You and I are splitting a room, as per the email I got this morning.
Watch out, Norm. Cherryholmes hogs the sheets. ;-)
(Stephanie told me, you perv! Get your mind out of the gutter, sheesh!)
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
noodleboy
> toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well.
So, as I said: at the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have
played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's
fangs down their throat and tore their head off.
> I have checked it out and for the most part it uses pot rather than POT
> vampires or at least very least uses them in equal proportions.
It's a 50/50 split. I'd call it a POT deck.
> You are misquoting me. I said that Peter's decks use 4.
Not misquoting. Note the full stops.
You said 4+. I've only ever seen versions with 4. Granted, I haven't
seen every deck he's ever made. i was talking about Nos hate You
variants.
> Check any of the pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with the 3 blood cost.
I found that they clogged my hand, and did nothing to stop the vamps
getting rescued as soon as you knocked them down. I find Pulled Fangs
works much better.
> The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn
> of it.
Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play
"block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If
you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a
hell of a lot more than you win.
> Why would you be bleeding your grandprey?
It's what happens when you oust your prey.
> If you meant to say that once you
> have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former
> grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be
> treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders,
> but apparently that isn't very obvious to you.
Why don't you read what I wrote, genius? I said that by the time you
thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor,
graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey
[yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of
free reign.
Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator
will almost certainly win the table. Capice?
> Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles.
> Happy Thanksgiving!
Thank you. No teeth please.
> > Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds
> > like crack to me. Or recycled tyres.
>
> Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him.
Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on
smoking.
n
noodleboy
> not willing to part with my testicles for that particular rare, but
> oddly it seems that everyone wants far more than they're actually worth.
Again, I traded for another one a few days ago. i paid in CE vampires.
Hardly testicles.
> The Taste won't be effective if you can't actually pay for all the cards
> in the first place.
True. You'd have to avoid backing yourself into that corner. I guess
that comes down to the skill of the pilot.
> And as far as the Path goes... We burn Paths around here, constantly.
> It's almost a mantra of sorts: "shoot the retainers, burn the Paths."
> Why? Because a deck using a Path is clearly using a lot of cards which
> cost blood, and removing that Path is going to seriously hurt the deck
> in question, as well as potentially cost that deck another pool to put
> the Path back in play... IF it has one in hand.
Said mantra doesn't seem to apply around here. Don't ask me why, but
Paths almost never get burned. It's an oddity to be sure. I haven't
seen one burned in a long while. [shrug]. Can't explain it.
> I could see it failing miserably, actually.
Again, a moot discussion until it's actually TRIED, which is currently
impossible.
<snip anecdotes>
> Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice.
This is not "press combat". This is "it's good to have a press if you
need it" combat. If you don't need it, groovy.
> Pressing with mandatory-range combat (Lids) generally stinks even worse unless you're just chock full of maneuvers, and Shadow Steps are -expensive- and not affected by the Path.
See your points below about "being in torpor or close enough". If
they're "close enough" to dead, you might not need to manuever in the
second round. Two slaps with the BM could/should be enough. But again,
a moot point until it's actually TRIED, which is currently impossible.
> It's been getting a lot of support lately, but after throwing two Lids
> at someone, you should really have them in torpor or close enough that
> you have their attention -- without needing to worry about the "I fifth
> self" action anymore, it's not as critical to completely erase an 8-cap
> on the first turn.
Indeed. However, you can't rely upon those strikes landing, your
opponent not dodging, Skinning, etc. Having a press, IF you need it,
can never hurt.
> I don't think we need Shadow Step in the game, personally; limiting the
> effect to one vampire and one clan (Gargoyles) is fine by me.
Alas, the card already exists. Not reprinting it simply gives an
advantage to those who are wealthy/savvy/lucky enough to own them
already - a small group by your own admission. This is not equitable
by any stretch of the imagination. The card should either be banned or
reprinted, yes?
> "Set range to close, crush" just really doesn't add anything; the
> Nosferatu have been able to do that -forever- with Drawing out the
> Beast.
Indeed. And it is a bad thing for another Clan to be able to do it
how?
> He added a 7-cap with all the in-clans, something the Lasombra have
> desperately needed for a long time.
Why? For CB?
> While he did get inferior pot, the
> superior PRE more than makes up for it -- previously, the only Lasombra
> with PRE were ridiculously huge vamps, and while you could go fetch
> Jessica or Sela, they didn't have the advantage of the Lasombra clan
> cards.
So, he made it easier for Lasombra to vote. Something they could
already do with ease, and something a number of other Clans have been
able to do forever. Your previous "Nosferatu-Drawing out the beast"
example as an arguement against Shadow Step seems to contradict to
your arguement about Tobias' usefulness.
> And blow 2 more blood out the window after spending HOW much?
1 with a Path. 2 without. Unless you were unlucky and blew an Entomb
on a dodging mark, which is possible.
> I agree with Norm's view here -- the Lasombra are already excellent
> voters and bleeders. They don't need to be excellent fighters too;
> we've already got plenty of bruise-and-vote (Nossies) and
> bruise-and-bleed (EuroBrujah, several others) clans.
"Need"? Again, did we "need" Tobias? Moreover, did we "need" Quietus?
I think we need a couple of POT vamps more.
> I don't personally see a reason to even start walking down that road,
> myself. So your favourite clan can't fight with POT. So?
So, it's illogical that their third discipline is ignored when all
other clans [except the Tori's apparently] get plenty of three-way
loving.
> Which reminds me: The Toreador are the answer to your question in
> another thread. No vampire with all three in-clans at superior below a
> 9-cap, and only three vampires with AUS CEL below a 9-cap... two in
> group 1, one in group 3.
They sound on par with the Lasombra unless I'm missing something?
> Cardinal Benediction has been available to the Lasombra for many, many
> moons now, though. I don't see how any Lasombra deck worth its salt
> couldn't arrange to acquire vote lock to some degree prior to committing
> Amaranth.
Unless you're counting on sticking in PRE vote mods simply for
Francisco, there is no way you can guarantee vote lock with a Lasombra
POT/pro variant. If you try to acquire this vote lock, that's more
cards in your deck getting in the way of rush. More cards you're going
to draw when you need that Grapple or Claw instead.
> >Yes, I know it's effect is huge. My Baltimore Purge deck packs 8 or 9
> >of them. it was so long ago I can't remember, but I believe the
> >original debate sprang from decpitate vs graverob, both of which have
> >their merits.
>
> Yeah. Grave Robbing's number one merit: it ain't Decapitate.
Indeed. That door, she swings both ways.
noodleboy
David Cherryholmes
> > The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn
> > of it.
>
> Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play
> "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If
> you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a
> hell of a lot more than you win.
But you also admit you play with people who've managed not to clue in to
the fact that Path's are lynchpin cards. Your anecdotes will need to be
twice as detailed as before, for me to find them persuasive. IMO, in an
environment peopled with *good* players who are playing to win, they
will rightly decide many times that a bleed for two or three just isn't
worth the consequences of stopping. If you have to spread your cards
around everybody's big schlong that they've whipped out on the table,
then maybe bully-bleed isn't such a good strategy. Lots of strategies
fall over when your opponents decide winning is secondary.
And yeah, that's a slam on your metagame, but c'mon man.....
*paths*???!??
> Why don't you read what I wrote, genius? I said that by the time you
> thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor,
> graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey
> [yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of
> free reign.
I still don't get why you have to knock *all* your prey's vampires into
torpor. Is it because you people will gladly go down fists a flying,
and to hell with winning as long as the beatings are good? Or is it
that your hypothetical prey will never tap one of his minions to take an
action, so you must remove all of them to not be blocked? And where are
you minions disappearing to, then? Won't knocking a few down give you
numerical superiority?
And why bleeds for one? Haven't we established that there's Dominate
going on here? Seriously, I've only kept a lazy eye on this thread.
Have I missed something?
> Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator
> will almost certainly win the table. Capice?
Totally agree. But why is that the case here, once you get over the
hyperbolic use of "all"? Instead, he loses "some" minions and takes
"some" bleed, while continuing to do "some" stuff to his prey.
> > Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him.
>
> Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on
> smoking.
Well, the Thau/Qui part is easy to get. Mainly due to your potence
lament, I've been thinking more about skill cards lately, and how they
aren't so bad. Maybe I'll give that deck a go.
David Cherryholmes
> > Press combat has historically been shown to stink on ice.
But not weenie for/trap/up, right? That doesn't stink, because it
iterates itself around the S:CE hole.
David Cherryholmes
> DOM is great for Graverobbing and Deflecting. You should put a second
> DOM in there for one of your nerds. ;)
If I don't think I need the extra capacity on Thetmes, that's what I do
with the single one, preferrably on one of the three caps.
David Cherryholmes
> so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any
> Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded
> my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)?
> I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint...
That's tough. I'd say SF and PoS are both key cards, the latter moreso
than the former. I recommend you proxy them for casual play, and bum
them off friends for tournaments. I mean, it's not like anyone you know
is likely going to be using them for a tournament, right? ;)
I think you could split the difference of the SF's into 2 more Pursuits
and 2 more Absorb the Minds. It doesn't replicate the effect or
anything, but those are the two cards I've noticed wishing I had more
of.
XZealot
> > Actually you can disregard him. Your prey isn't the only one to be able to
> > toss a Master. Your predator quite possible could do it as well.
>
> So, as I said: at the worst, you cost someone a Master they could have
> played, potentially to your detriment. At best, you knocked someone's
> fangs down their throat and tore their head off.
Generally, you will flush a master far more often than you will beat
down a key vampire.
> Not misquoting. Note the full stops.
>
> You said 4+. I've only ever seen versions with 4. Granted, I haven't
> seen every deck he's ever made. i was talking about Nos hate You
> variants.
>
> > Check any of the pot rush decks of Peter's and you will find them. I use 6-8 and I find that they work great; especially if my victim doesn't burn the Disarm off with the 3 blood cost.
>
> I found that they clogged my hand, and did nothing to stop the vamps
> getting rescued as soon as you knocked them down. I find Pulled Fangs
> works much better.
Your mileage may vary. Pulled Fangs is a good card as well, but
certainly no replacement for a Disarm.
> > The pot equivalent of stealth is quite effective dispite your apparent scorn
> > of it.
>
> Nothing "apparant"about it. I scorn it. In my experience, if you play
> "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If
> you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a
> hell of a lot more than you win.
Since you only should win about 20% of the time on average, then your
point of losing more than winning really has nothing to do with the
strategy of potence "stealth".
> > Why would you be bleeding your grandprey?
>
> It's what happens when you oust your prey.
>
> > If you meant to say that once you
> > have dispatched your prey and are working on your new prey, your former
> > grand prey, then you should stick to what works. Again you should be
> > treating your grand prey to more thumping before sending in the bleeders,
> > but apparently that isn't very obvious to you.
>
> Why don't you read what I wrote, genius?
Why don't you learn how to write, Shakespeare?
I said that by the time you
> thump hell out of all your prey's vamps, knock them all into torpor,
> graverob them and bleed your prey out 1 pool at a time, your grandprey
> [yes, the guy who will soon become you prey] has had 6 or 7 turns of
> free reign.
If it takes you 6 or 7 turns after have planted and graverobbed all of
your prey's vampires, then you probably are doing something wrong.
You should figure 2-3 turns tops.
> Any deck worth it's salt which is given 6 or 7 turns with no predator
> will almost certainly win the table. Capice?
Again 6-7 turns is a long time, you should probably work on your
deck.
> > Apparently you have some sort of fixation with turkeys and motorcycles.
> > Happy Thanksgiving!
>
> Thank you. No teeth please.
I don't swing that way, but if you do, then I am sure this is not the
newsgroup to talk about it. Perhaps you should stop soliciting oral
sex from men and try dating. It might help you overcome your
fixations.
> > > Not if it prompts you to include Henri in a THA/QUI deck, no. Sounds
> > > like crack to me. Or recycled tyres.
> >
> > Thau Qui Dom experimental deck seems to be quite a good place for him.
>
> Let me know when you win a tourney with it. Until then, keep on
> smoking.
Oh, so that is the end all and be all of deck design, Tournament
Champion. I can see you are a real innovator. So is that how you
play? Just copying other people's decks from the tournament archives.
You are such a munchkin.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
>salem wrote:
>
>> so...what would you recommend for those of us who don't own any
>> Provisions, and don't have any spare Shadow Feint (and i even traded
>> my two Silence of Deaths away last year...stupid!)?
>> I could try Gemini's Mirror as a poor-man's Shadow Feint...
>
>That's tough. I'd say SF and PoS are both key cards, the latter moreso
>than the former. I recommend you proxy them for casual play,
Boo! hiss!! I despise proxies. even in casual play. but that's just
me.
maybe i could pop in the odd Ritual of the Bitter rose, so my 'nerds'
can diablerise and fill up the Thet-meister.
>and bum
>them off friends for tournaments. I mean, it's not like anyone you know
>is likely going to be using them for a tournament, right? ;)
well, no, not too likely. :)
>I think you could split the difference of the SF's into 2 more Pursuits
>and 2 more Absorb the Minds. It doesn't replicate the effect or
>anything, but those are the two cards I've noticed wishing I had more
>of.
fair enough.
now, to find time to build this thing....and some spare sleeves....
too many decks!
Jason
> > "block me and die", your grandprey will win more often than you do. If
> > you fight upstream, downstream and across the table, you will lose a
> > hell of a lot more than you win.
>
> But you also admit you play with people who've managed not to clue in to
> the fact that Path's are lynchpin cards. Your anecdotes will need to be
> twice as detailed as before, for me to find them persuasive.
Leaving my playgroup aside for a moment, do you honestly subscribe to
the theory that you can fight your prey, your predator and the guy
across the table with a Rush deck, and still have any realistic chance
of winning?
> IMO, in an environment peopled with *good* players who are playing to win, they will rightly decide many times that a bleed for two or three just isn't
> worth the consequences of stopping.
Correct. I've said that previously. However, we [original poster and
I] were talking about graverobbings in regards to the "block me and
die" mentality. I orginally asked How the poster intended to get the
GR through without stealth. He answered [and I am paraphrasing here]
by knocking anyone who tried to block into torpor. Hence, the
conversation [d]evolved into the consequences of what happens when you
play with that kind of "destroy all" mentality - at least in my
experience.
> If you have to spread your cards
> around everybody's big schlong that they've whipped out on the table,
> then maybe bully-bleed isn't such a good strategy. Lots of strategies
> fall over when your opponents decide winning is secondary.
>
> And yeah, that's a slam on your metagame, but c'mon man.....
> *paths*???!??
I've played in many metagames all over this country, and still find it
a truism. I can't really explain it. I realise it's illogical, even
though I sometimes find myself ignoring a Path in favour of an action
i see as more critical. Best example I can give of the top of my head
was at the Adelaide qualifier this year, where I was playing a
Baltimore Purge deck [archived on Salem's site if you want a gander].
It was incredibly pricey in terms of the Obten stealth, so Paths were
a neccesity. I pulled one out very early in the final, and both my
prey and predator spent the rest of the game arguing about who was
going to burn it. My prey felt he had better things to do [ie, oust
his prey. He was playing a Malk S/B deck] and my predator tried maybe
twice to do it [playing Tzimisce] before going back to tooling up and
building his wall - I suppose he saw his Intercept permanents as more
important to the overall game, ie, blocking my Purges was more
important than burning my Path.
It seems to me that in high stress games like tourneys, where every
action seems to count for more, people almost always have "something
better to do" than burn a Path. This may be an oddity in other games.
However, it's true in the three Oz metagames that i've played in.
[shrug] Path of Evil Revalations aside of course. ;)
> I still don't get why you have to knock *all* your prey's vampires into
> torpor.
See above. His plan, not mine.
> And why bleeds for one? Haven't we established that there's Dominate
> going on here? Seriously, I've only kept a lazy eye on this thread.
> Have I missed something?
Dom bleed wasn't mentioned as part of the plan. Methinks a solid 7agg
combat deck with graverobbings would have a hard time fitting any
decent amount of Dom bleed into the mix too, but granted, I haven't
built the deck.
> Well, the Thau/Qui part is easy to get. Mainly due to your potence
> lament, I've been thinking more about skill cards lately, and how they
> aren't so bad. Maybe I'll give that deck a go.
Let me know how it flies, and whether Henri makes the final cut and
contributes anything other than ballast.
I have *sincere* doubts considering his lack of thau, but hey, prove
me wrong.
noods