several rules questions (LSJ)
Stone
games :
1/ Bima (The Bima may play cards that require the basic level
of that Discipline as a vampire) has a Dominate skill card, 2 life and
bleeds with Govern the
Unaligned (cost : 1 blood).
Bima is not blocked and plays Conditioning (cost : 1 blood).
Bima burns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still resolved,
meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
2/ Same scenario, with the target of the bleed controlling an untapped
Aranthebes (While Aranthebes is untapped, vampires with a capacity less than
5 get -1 bleed when bleeding you.).
I guess Aranthebes doesn't affect Bima, but I'm definitely not sure. Is the
bleed 5 in all cases, or does the bleed somehow goes down to 4 due to
Aranthebes ?
3/ Similar scenario, but with Bima playing only either Govern or
Conditioning. Would the answer be the same ?
4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked Bum's)
would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
(which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and that
the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
5/ A vampire is tapped, plays Forced Awakening (This reacting vampire can
attempt to block and play reaction cards as though untapped. If he or she
does not successfully block this action, he or she burns an additional
blood) to attempt to block an action, acting plays a block denial (sup.
Elder Impersonation : [OBF] Only usable when a minion attempts to block. The
attempt fails (do not tap that blocking minion). That minion cannot attempt
to block this action again.).
Just checking : in the event the block attempt fails for sure, the loss of
blood from FA still happens later, just before resolving the action ?
6/ Might as well include this one here, since it's not on google : a vampire
calls a referendum (say a Kine Resources Contested) and is not blocked.
Terms are set, vampires start voting etc. A tapped vampire with 1 blood
plays Forced Awakening. That vampire loses a blood immediately, meaning he
couldn't play Delaying Tactics, right ?
7/ A vampire bleeds, someone attempts to block, acting plays sup. Faceless
Night (+1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block
this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before
resolving the action).). Then combat, then the acting plays sup. Form of
Mist (Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting, he or she may burn 1
blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked
(this action can still be blocked). A vampire may play only one Form of Mist
at superior each action). Another, untapped, minion attempts to block and
fails (due to stealth increasing, block denial, whatever).
Does the tap effet of FN apply once more ? Another way of phrasing it would
be : does the resolution of the action includes the first combat and
whatever happens after FoM is played (meaning FN no longer has any effect),
or ...err....something else ?
8/ about sup. Propaganda ([pre] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed. Titled vampires
cannot block this action.
[PRE] As above, and the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of his or her
ready untapped minions when the action resolves.). Back in old Sabbat or SW
days, the "when the action resolves" wasn't part of the text, but it was
known the tap effect wouldn't happen if the action was blocked. Thing is,
"action resolves" means "action either successful or blocked" (since a
block-combat is part of resolving an action as well). So, does this mean
sup. Propaganda "now" taps an untapped minion even though the action would
be blocked ? I guess not, but I miss something from the "new" text (i.e. I
thought it would be "when the action resolves and is successful").
Oortje
1/ Bima burns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still
resolved,
> meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
Yes. You pay the cost of an action when the action resolves. I presume
there is no window between the payment and the resolution.
> 2/ Is the
> bleed 5 in all cases, or does the bleed somehow goes down to 4 due to
> Aranthebes ?
My guess is 5. Bima doesn't say he counts as a specific capacity.
> 3/ Similar scenario, but with Bima playing only either Govern or
> Conditioning. Would the answer be the same ?
3 bleed. Bima doesn't say he counts as a specific capacity.
>
> 4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
> Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked Bum's)
> would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
> (which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
> Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and that
> the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
My guess: replace at the end of combat or at the end of the action,
whatever occurs first. Playing Psyche! or an other start a new combat
card wil make you replace the bums rush card.
> 5/
> Just checking : in the event the block attempt fails for sure, the loss of
> blood from FA still happens later, just before resolving the action ?
>
5 A hard one. I would say end of the action.
> 6/ That vampire loses a blood immediately, meaning he
> couldn't play Delaying Tactics, right ?
6 well since I awnsered end of the action on question 5, I have to say
wrong. But that is more based around how it is is played in our
playgroup, not based on logical reading of the card.
> 7/ Faceless night still applies after form of mist. action modifiers apply for the duration of the action, just like reactioncards. ( reactioncards: wake>block> ambulance>block again with the same wake)
>
> 8/ An action resolves when the action is not blocked and the cost is paid.
I hope I get a good score on this Vtes test.
greetz,
Oortje
PaulW...@gmail.com
On May 6, 10:48 am, Oortje <internetoor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I like to guess the awnsers to your little quiz...
> 1/ Bima burns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still
> resolved,
>
> > meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
>
> Yes. You pay the cost of an action when the action resolves. I presume
> there is no window between the payment and the resolution.
Agreed on this one. Birma does burn after the action resolves though.
>
> > 2/ Is the
> > bleed 5 in all cases, or does the bleed somehow goes down to 4 due to
> > Aranthebes ?
>
> My guess is 5. Bima doesn't say he counts as a specific capacity.
In the rulebook it states that if an ally is allowed to play cards as
a vampire he/she is treated as a 1 capacity vampire for that action.
So the bleed would only be for 4. And 3 in the situation below.
>
> > 3/ Similar scenario, but with Bima playing only either Govern or
> > Conditioning. Would the answer be the same ?
>
> 3 bleed. Bima doesn't say he counts as a specific capacity.
>
>
>
> > 4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
> > Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked Bum's)
> > would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
> > (which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
> > Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and that
> > the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
>
> My guess: replace at the end of combat or at the end of the action,
> whatever occurs first. Playing Psyche! or an other start a new combat
> card wil make you replace the bums rush card.
Agreed.
>
> > 5/
> > Just checking : in the event the block attempt fails for sure, the loss of
> > blood from FA still happens later, just before resolving the action ?
>
> 5 A hard one. I would say end of the action.
>
> > 6/ That vampire loses a blood immediately, meaning he
> > couldn't play Delaying Tactics, right ?
>
> 6 well since I awnsered end of the action on question 5, I have to say
> wrong. But that is more based around how it is is played in our
> playgroup, not based on logical reading of the card.
You can play the Forced awakening and a Delaying tactics. You only
burn a blood for the FA after the action resolves. Since the vampire
still has a blood during the action and is allowed to play reaction
cards he can play a delaying tactics. The blood is spend and at the
end of the action there is no blood left to burn for the FA. The same
rule applies for a vampire with 1 blood who plays a FA and a
deflection, redirection etc.
LSJ
> 1/ Bima has a Dominate skill card, 2 life and
> bleeds with Govern the Unaligned (cost : 1 blood).
> Bima is not blocked and plays Conditioning (cost : 1 blood).
>
> Bima burns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still resolved,
> meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
Correct.
> 2/ Same scenario, with the target of the bleed controlling an untapped
> Aranthebes (While Aranthebes is untapped, vampires with a capacity less than
> 5 get -1 bleed when bleeding you.).
> I guess Aranthebes doesn't affect Bima, but I'm definitely not sure. Is the
> bleed 5 in all cases, or does the bleed somehow goes down to 4 due to
> Aranthebes ?
Correct. Aranthebes doesn't see Bima as a vampire. It sees Bima as the ally it is.
> 3/ Similar scenario, but with Bima playing only either Govern or
> Conditioning. Would the answer be the same ?
The Bima wouldn't burn, but Aranthebes would still see it as an ally and the
bleed would still resolve, sure.
> 4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
> Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked Bum's)
> would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
> (which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
> Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and that
> the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
Yes. I has never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the action is
over (at least, not I haven't done so any time after the text was changed to "Do
not replace until the end of this action").
The action doesn't end until after effects like (and combats from) Psyche, etc.
are concluded.
> 5/ A vampire is tapped, plays Forced Awakening (This reacting vampire can
> attempt to block and play reaction cards as though untapped. If he or she
> does not successfully block this action, he or she burns an additional
> blood) to attempt to block an action, acting plays a block denial (sup.
> Elder Impersonation : [OBF] Only usable when a minion attempts to block. The
> attempt fails (do not tap that blocking minion). That minion cannot attempt
> to block this action again.).
> Just checking : in the event the block attempt fails for sure, the loss of
> blood from FA still happens later, just before resolving the action ?
Correct.
> 6/ Might as well include this one here, since it's not on google : a vampire
> calls a referendum (say a Kine Resources Contested) and is not blocked.
> Terms are set, vampires start voting etc. A tapped vampire with 1 blood
> plays Forced Awakening. That vampire loses a blood immediately, meaning he
> couldn't play Delaying Tactics, right ?
Correct.
The ruling is that the vampire burns a blood for FA as soon as the acting
reaches resolution. Since the action has already reached resolution, the vampire
would burn the blood immeditely upon playing FA.
> 7/ A vampire bleeds, someone attempts to block, acting plays sup. Faceless
> Night (+1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block
> this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before
> resolving the action).). Then combat, then the acting plays sup. Form of
> Mist (Strike: combat ends. If this vampire is acting, he or she may burn 1
> blood after combat ends to continue the action at +1 stealth as if unblocked
> (this action can still be blocked). A vampire may play only one Form of Mist
> at superior each action). Another, untapped, minion attempts to block and
> fails (due to stealth increasing, block denial, whatever).
> Does the tap effet of FN apply once more ?
Yes, once the continuing action reaches resolution again.
> 8/ about sup. Propaganda ([pre] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed. Titled vampires
> cannot block this action.
> [PRE] As above, and the Methuselah you are bleeding taps one of his or her
> ready untapped minions when the action resolves.). Back in old Sabbat or SW
> days, the "when the action resolves" wasn't part of the text, but it was
> known the tap effect wouldn't happen if the action was blocked. Thing is,
> "action resolves" means "action either successful or blocked" (since a
> block-combat is part of resolving an action as well). So, does this mean
> sup. Propaganda "now" taps an untapped minion even though the action would
> be blocked ? I guess not, but I miss something from the "new" text (i.e. I
> thought it would be "when the action resolves and is successful").
All action text is "when successful" by default.
Computer Hacking doesn't have to say "Bleed with +1 bleed when successful".
leon.t...@gmail.com
> > whatever occurs first. Playing Psyche! or an other start a new combat
> > card wil make you replace the bums rush card.
>
> Agreed.
Nope incorrect. You replace the Bum's rush at the end of the action.
The action isn't over until all combats that occur as part of the
action have happened; i.e. the first combat that occurred either as
part of a block, or the combat that occurred as part of the action
doing its thang, AND any other weird combats that might pop up after
that combat such as a combat started by a Psyche, or a combat that
happens because I decided to be a crazy weirdo and form of mist but
you decide to block again, or other weird combats that might happen
from such cards as blood brother ambush or hidden lurker. The action
doesn't end until all this crap has sorted itself out and every has
stopped combat-ing.
If the action is blocked, you do a combat, then maybe some more
combats if people play whacky cards like Pscyhe, then the action ends.
And you replace the bum's rush.
If the action is not blocked, it resolves which means it results in a
combat, and possibly more combats if people play whacky cards like
Psyche, and then the action ends. And then you replace the bum's rush.
You replace when the action ends, which is, unsurprisingly, at the
end, after everything else has happened.
> You can play the Forced awakening and a Delaying tactics. You only
> burn a blood for the FA after the action resolves.
Yep.
Oortje
>
> > You can play the Forced awakening and a Delaying tactics. You only
> > burn a blood for the FA after the action resolves.
>
> Yep.
LSJ said:
The ruling is that the vampire burns a blood for FA as soon as the
acting
reaches resolution. Since the action has already reached resolution,
the vampire
would burn the blood immeditely upon playing FA.
*****
So, Leon, we are both wrong. If I understand it right, then referendum
is a resultion of a succesfull action.
librarian
> Stone wrote:
>>
>> 4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
>> Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked
>> Bum's)
>> would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
>> (which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
>> Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and
>> that
>> the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
>
> Yes. I has never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the
> action is over (at least, not I haven't done so any time after the text
> was changed to "Do not replace until the end of this action").
>
LSJ, I think there are grammatical errors in your sentence above, my
interpretation of it is this:
"I have never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the
action is over (at least, I haven't done so any time after the text was
changed to "Do not replace until the end of this action")."
One "has" changed to "have", and a *not* removed.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
www.superfuncards.com *NEW Website!*
auct...@superfuncards.com
Pascek
> LSJ wrote:
> > Stone wrote:
>
> >> 4/ A player told me that "recently, as confirmed by LSJ", you'd replace a
> >> Bum's rush as soon as the combat (either from an unblocked or blocked
> >> Bum's)
> >> would begin. I guess this is wrong and you replace Bum's when the action
> >> (which includes resolution of combat, plus additional combats due to
> >> Psyche/Form of Mist/Hidden Lurker/Siren's Lure/whatever) is over, and
> >> that
> >> the rumor of that "recent" change should go to hoaxbuster ?
>
> > Yes. I has never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the
> > action is over (at least, not I haven't done so any time after the text
> > was changed to "Do not replace until the end of this action").
>
> LSJ, I think there are grammatical errors in your sentence above, my
> interpretation of it is this:
>
> "I have never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the
So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
MUST be untapped?
> action is over (at least, I haven't done so any time after the text was
> changed to "Do not replace until the end of this action")."
>
> One "has" changed to "have", and a *not* removed.
>
> best -
>
> chris
> --
> Super Fun Cardswww.superfuncards.com*NEW Website!*
> aucti...@superfuncards.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
LSJ
>> "I have never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced before the
> There comes a question...
> So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
> MUST be untapped?
To play any reaction card at any time, you must be untapped. [1.6.3.5]
Not sure what part of the Bum's Rush discussion leads to that, but it's true
nonetheless.
mat...@gmail.com
> There comes a question...
> So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
> MUST be untapped?
No you just need the blood to play both cards(FA, DT)
Pascek
> > There comes a question...
> > So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
> > MUST be untapped?
>
> No you just need the blood to play both cards(FA, DT)
Another question :
So a tapped vampire have to play forced BEFORE action succeeds, and
referendum starts, to play Delaying Tactics "as untapped"?
Tks.>
LSJ
> On May 7, 1:10 pm, matt...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> There comes a question...
>>> So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
>>> MUST be untapped?
>> No you just need the blood to play both cards(FA, DT)
> LSJ, i was talking about the referendum issue...
That was matt...@gmail.com, not me.
> Another question :
>
> So a tapped vampire have to play forced BEFORE action succeeds, and
> referendum starts, to play Delaying Tactics "as untapped"?
No. Reaction cards can be played during the referendum.
He can play FA (and burn a blood, since he didn't block) and then play DT.
Pascek
> Pascek wrote:
> > On May 7, 1:10 pm, matt...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> There comes a question...
> >>> So this means that to play any reaction cards during a referendum you
> >>> MUST be untapped?
Thrall of Arika
>
> - Show quoted text -
To review how a Political Action takes place:
1) Acting minion attempts a political action.
2) The action either ends up being blocked, or is successful.
3) If successful, the terms of the referendum are set and voting
commences. By this point, no more blocks can be made or even
attempted. But Reaction cards can still be played as normal (i.e. by
untapped minions, or those playing a wake effect). Forced Awakening
allows you to play reaction cards as if untapped (as well as attempt
to block, but since the action is already successful, you can no
longer attempt to block). By card text, the minion playing Forced
Awakening at this point didn't successfully block the acting minion,
and so must burn a blood immediately.
You could also use On the Que Vive or Wake with Evening's Freshness
during the referendum. You couldn't play cards such as Eluding the
Arms of Morpheus or Sense the Savage Ways, as they only allow you to
attempt to block, which you can no longer do at this point.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
The Name Forgotten
On a similar note, Pandora's Whisper is unique at the moment because
it is the only action with a "do not replace" clause that ends later
than at the end of the action. Since this came up in last nights
social game, I wanted to check up on it. If the Pandora's Whisper
action is blocked and the action ends unsuccessfully, the "Do not
replace until your next untap" still comes into effect, correct? This
means the standard player will be on a handsize of 6 until their next
untap phase, correct?
Thanks in advance!
LSJ
> On a similar note, Pandora's Whisper is unique at the moment because
> it is the only action with a "do not replace" clause that ends later
> than at the end of the action. Since this came up in last nights
> social game, I wanted to check up on it. If the Pandora's Whisper
> action is blocked and the action ends unsuccessfully, the "Do not
> replace until your next untap" still comes into effect, correct? This
> means the standard player will be on a handsize of 6 until their next
> untap phase, correct?
Correct.
Kumi
> Stone wrote:
> > 1/Bimahas a Dominate skill card, 2 life and
> > bleeds with Govern the Unaligned (cost : 1 blood).
>
> >Bimaburns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still resolved,
> > meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
>
> Correct.
A question here regarding the timing of when the Bima burns and when
the pool is lost due to the bleed:
Say there are two players left in the game:
Player A has a Bima in play with Dominate with one life left, Player A
has one pool left and has a Govern the Unaligned in his hand.
Player B has no cards in hand and no minoins in play, but has 3 pool,
a Tension in the Ranks and an Anarch Revolt in play.
It is the minion phase of Player A, and he bleeds with Govern. Which
is the right order of the events:
- The Bima burns before the pool is lost due to the successful bleed
thus ousting player A as the Tension kicks in, or
- Player B looses the 3 pool due to the bleed before the Bima burns,
or
- Burning the Bima and the pool due to the bleed happens at the same
time, thus both players are ousted with the same action.
/Kumi
LSJ
> On máj. 6, 12:35, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Stone wrote:
>>> 1/Bimahas a Dominate skill card, 2 life and
>>> bleeds with Govern the Unaligned (cost : 1 blood).
>>> Bimais not blocked and plays Conditioning (cost : 1 blood).
>>> Bimaburns due to having zero life, but the bleed of 5 is still resolved,
>>> meaning the target of the bleed loses 5 pool, right ?
>> Correct.
>
> A question here regarding the timing of when the Bima burns and when
> the pool is lost due to the bleed:
Action cost is paid at the time of action resolution.
> Say there are two players left in the game:
> Player A has a Bima in play with Dominate with one life left, Player A
> has one pool left and has a Govern the Unaligned in his hand.
> Player B has no cards in hand and no minoins in play, but has 3 pool,
> a Tension in the Ranks and an Anarch Revolt in play.
>
> It is the minion phase of Player A, and he bleeds with Govern. Which
> is the right order of the events:
> - The Bima burns before the pool is lost due to the successful bleed
> thus ousting player A as the Tension kicks in, or
> - Player B looses the 3 pool due to the bleed before the Bima burns,
> or
> - Burning the Bima and the pool due to the bleed happens at the same
> time, thus both players are ousted with the same action.
The second.
Bima burns a blood to cause the Methuselah B to burn 3 pool and be ousted.
Assuming nothing interrupts that, you then handle the effects that arise from
that -- the main one being "game ends (with only A remaining)".
For completeness, let's add player C so the game doesn't end.
So B is ousted and Tension leaves play and A gains 6 pool.
Bima burns from being empty.
A now completes his turn.
If the Tension had been controlled by A (or C):
B is ousted and A gains 6 pool.
Bima burns from being empty.
A burns 1 pool for the Tension.
A completes his turn.
Reyda !
> Yes. I has never confirmed that the Bum's Rush is replaced
LSJ now seriously sounds like lolcats ^^