4th set of preview cards are up
Roger Carhult
people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't the
case, at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too. Anyway, what I
really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes him great for a
!Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and Gerard. Also his
ability is quite cool, and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is
never wrong either.
The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth action)
is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy with
blood gain together witht his card.
Anyway a given combo is of course Tribute to the Master and Patshiv.
Roger
jeroen rombouts
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:9fg3g4$308$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Roger Carhult
--
"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:cnMS6.1899$mR5.2...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
I don't know? They work fine for me, did you try
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Checklist_FinalNights.html ? I just checked
it right now and it worked. In case you want more info of the cards:
Gustav Mallenhous
Ventrue-antitribu
8 cap
DOM, AUS, for, obt
Priscus. Gustav can remove a bishop's or archbishop's title as a D action.
+1 bleed.
Patshiv
Action
Clan: Ravnos
+1 stealth action. Each ready untapped Ravnos gains 1 blood from the blood
bank.
Sorrow
the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
The art for Patshiv kicks ass. :p
> Gustav Mallenhous a !Ventrue 8 cap vampire. Hmm he's is really good. Some
> people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
> powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't
the case,
> at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
unnecessary, he'd
> be realyl great even without that too.
Agreed. Plus, he as DOM. Why'd he need the +1 bleed?
> Anyway, what I really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes
him
> great for a !Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and Gerard.
> Also his ability is quite cool
Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting the
action to remove a title through.
> and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is never wrong either.
Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.
> The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth
action)
> is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
> they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
> for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy
with
> blood gain together witht his card.
True. Well, I wouldn't hold out hope on the Path until we see the card
list.
I think the Path and Patshiv both go a ways towards bringing the average
cost of cards down, which is way too high right now.
Sorrow
---
I don't want to be alone | I hurt, therefore I am
anymore |--------------------------------
I don't want to be anyone | "What are you looking at...?
anymore | you never seen anyone try to
I don't need a reason to kill myself | commit suicide before?" - Anon
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Carhult
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:AbPS6.32$7d....@newshog.newsread.com...
> First let me say, "WTF is up with Christopher Shy doing like 90% of
> the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
Yes his vampires just pretty much all lok the same and are all done witth he
same perspective, i.e. close-up image of the face. I wonder why he never
make vampires where more of the body is shown? For example like Raven,
Mariana Gilbert, Quinn McDonnell etc. His drawings are nice the first tiem
you see it but then they just all look too similar.
> The art for Patshiv kicks ass. :p
Yeah I liked it a lot! I wasn't too excited of this card other than the
artwork. As a preview card I wouldn't have mind something more interesting.
This card isn't bad or anything, but we've seen it before in similar shapes
(Blood Feast, Media Influence) so it's nothing new and exciting.
>
> > Gustav Mallenhous a !Ventrue 8 cap vampire. Hmm he's is really good.
Some
> > people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
> > powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't
> the case,
> > at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
> unnecessary, he'd
> > be realyl great even without that too.
>
> Agreed. Plus, he as DOM. Why'd he need the +1 bleed?
Exactly, couple that with some obt stealth, GtU, Command of the Beast and a
bonding and things get really scary.
>
> > Anyway, what I really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes
> him
> > great for a !Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and
Gerard.
> > Also his ability is quite cool
>
> Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting the
> action to remove a title through.
Well he'll have max +2 in stealth on that action (3 if skill card on him and
then it gets hard to stop) and I'd rather bleed with that stealth I think.
The ability is certainly good but not that hard to stop it and Archbishop
titles aren't IMO that useful other than for the votes (and then Cardinals
are preferrable). There just aint as many useful cards requiring archbishops
compared to the Camarilla countparts.
> > and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is never wrong
either.
>
> Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.'
Yes I think he's too powerful as well. Point wise he's as good as Little
Tailor of Prague. But htis just shows how careful you have to be with using
the point system and making a Priscus vote equal 1 point etc. I think he
should have be made like:
AUS, DOM, aus , obt and Priscus and special ability but not the +1 bleed. If
+1 is to be there too then he should at least have dom and FOR instead.
>
> > The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth
> action)
> > is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
> > they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
> > for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy
> with
> > blood gain together witht his card.
>
> True. Well, I wouldn't hold out hope on the Path until we see the card
> list.
> I think the Path and Patshiv both go a ways towards bringing the average
> cost of cards down, which is way too high right now.
>
> Sorrow
Yes I agree here.
Reyda
"Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message news:
AbPS6.32$7d....@newshog.newsread.com...
> First let me say, "WTF is up with Christopher Shy doing like 90% of
> the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
Hey you've only seen 2 of them ! I was also reluctant at Shy's art at
first, but the job he did for Final Nights is really good. Just wait and
see. And don't complain, it could have been Drew Tucker ;)
> The art for Patshiv kicks ass. :p
yes but it's not a brand new card : Superior Media influence and "that
titled sabbat card" still do the same thing.
> > Gustav Mallenhous a !Ventrue 8 cap vampire. Hmm he's is really good.
Some
> > people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
> > powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't
> the case,
> > at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
> unnecessary, he'd
> > be realyl great even without that too.
>
> Agreed. Plus, he as DOM. Why'd he need the +1 bleed?
Yes this vampire is powerful. Not too much. Don't forget some camarilla
vampires with +2 Bleed and 4 votes, or +1 stealth and archon ability...
Don't forget those vampire from the first set of jyhad which allow you to
play 2 master cards a turn, untap between turns or tap to end combat and
inflict damage to other minions. And what about some 10 cap cardinal monster
which can inflict 2 aggravated hand damage at will ? Gustav is cool but not
a powerhouse.
> > Anyway, what I really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes
> him
> > great for a !Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and
Gerard.
> > Also his ability is quite cool
>
> Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting the
> action to remove a title through.
All you have to do is pack some more permanent intercept. With inferior Obt,
sure he can sometime go up to 3 stealth, but a sport bike and a +1 intercept
location, and he's already in trouble. Or maybe just put some Prisci and
Cardinals in your deck, as their titles ar untouchable.
> > and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is never wrong
either.
>
> Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.
the !ventrue really needed someone titled : hey even now they still have
only *one* archbishop, *one* cardinal and *one* priscus. Compare that to
their camarilla counterparts, which can Parity shift and voter cap...
Better vampires for the sabbat clans are still welcome =)
reyda
Derek Ray
<rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote:
>Gustav Mallenhous a !Ventrue 8 cap vampire. Hmm he's is really good. Some
>people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
>powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't the
>case, at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
>unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too. Anyway, what I
Hm. Point count!
2 superiors = +4
2 inferiors = +2
Title = +1
Special = +1
+1 bleed = +1
which works out to 9. This fits the formula LSJ tossed out earlier
(Message-ID: <3B028520...@white-wolf.com>) where 7- and 8-caps
get cap+1 points in disciplines, specials, etc.
The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
than four two-caps if they don't.
>really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes him great for a
>!Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and Gerard. Also his
>ability is quite cool, and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is
>never wrong either.
That bit scares me, actually. The !Ventrue did not have a Priscus
previously, and they were STILL quite capable of forcing votes through
1 to 0. Now they have Gustav, Kyle, Quentin, and Lazverinuts with
titles: that's a total of 9 positive votes, none of which interfere
with each other. And each of the following count effectively as
anywhere from 1 to 3 additional votes, depending on what table votes
are at the table:
Quentin's special ability
Telepathic Vote Counting
Kindred Manipulation
Demonstration
Icky. And of course, for vote defense, superior Dominate provides
Pulling Strings and Kindred Coercion - use as necessary, although your
own titles could be sufficient.
>The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth action)
>is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
>they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
>for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy with
>blood gain together witht his card.
All the current Chimerstry cards cost blood, though. I don't see
blood GAIN ever being an issue with this card, even if a Path of
Paradox landed in the set as well. =)
-- Derek
Thug of Atlanta
Sorrow
> > the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
> Yes his vampires just pretty much all lok the same and are all done witth
he
> same perspective, i.e. close-up image of the face.
And all blurred/faded.
> > > at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
> > > unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too.
> > Agreed. Plus, he as DOM. Why'd he need the +1 bleed?
> Exactly, couple that with some obt stealth, GtU, Command of the Beast and
a
> bonding and things get really scary.
Shudder
> > > Anyway, what I really like about him is that he has obtenebration,
makes
> > Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting the
> > action to remove a title through.
> Well he'll have max +2 in stealth on that action (3 if skill card on him
and
> then it gets hard to stop) and I'd rather bleed with that stealth I think.
Maybe, maybe not. Plus, if he does get a skill card, he'd have access to
Shadow Body and since this isn't a PA or a bleed action...
> The ability is certainly good but not that hard to stop it and Archbishop
> titles aren't IMO that useful other than for the votes (and then Cardinals
> are preferrable). There just aint as many useful cards requiring
archbishops
> compared to the Camarilla countparts.
Except that all of the following cards require Archbishops:
Sabbat Inquisitor
Shock Troops
Cardinal Sin
Creation Rites
Consecration Rites
Fire Dance
Blood Feast
Vaulderie
Blood Siege !!
Purchase Pact
Private Audience !!
Blood of the Sabbat !!
War Party
Eternal Vigilance !!
Templar (also usable by Bishops)
If you've got a deck that makes gratuitous use of any of the
above cards, you can really hamstring that deck. It might
have some Crusades in the deck, but if the player is counting
on natural titles, it could really hurt if that title isn't there anymore.
Plus, if you have an !Ventrue voting deck (which is much more
possible these days), it sure doesn't hurt being able to take
down the opposition fairly easily.
> > > and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is never wrong
> > > either.> > Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.'
> Yes I think he's too powerful as well. Point wise he's as good as Little
> Tailor of Prague. But htis just shows how careful you have to be with
using
> the point system and making a Priscus vote equal 1 point etc.
It should definitely be worth at least 2. When do you ever see more than
1 Priscus on the table? Even if there are, the Prisci block is pretty
powerful.
3 votes?
> I think he should have be made like:
> AUS, DOM, aus , obt and Priscus and special ability but not the +1 bleed.
If
> +1 is to be there too then he should at least have dom and FOR instead.
Agreed. However, I still think his special should have been removed or cost
more.
Sorrow
---
I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me.
They ask me if I feel remose and I answer, "Why of course!
There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!"
So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy
Sorrow
> >people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
> >powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't
the
> >case, at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
> >unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too. Anyway, what I
> Hm. Point count!
> 2 superiors = +4
> 2 inferiors = +2
> Title = +1
> Special = +1
How can you say that this is worth only 1 point? This is a very powerful
special...
Sorrow
---
"...but you know, evil is an exact science..."
Roger Carhult
> Except that all of the following cards require Archbishops:
>
> Sabbat Inquisitor - not that useful because it's hard ot get the vote
through. Better use laptop/retainer that gives +1 bleed
> Shock Troops - ehh....well goes without saying :)
> Cardinal Sin - one of them is quite good, the other suck.
> Creation Rites - very useful
> Consecration Rites - has some use but really never sees play
> Fire Dance - doesn't see play much, has some use.
> Blood Feast - personally I don't really think this card is good, but ok
has some use.
> Vaulderie - never sees play here, but a bit underestimated I think.
> Blood Siege !! - hehehe, expensive but damn cool though
> Purchase Pact - good card actually
> Private Audience !! - Probably the best of the cards here
> Blood of the Sabbat !! - never sees much use but a good card
> War Party - decent but I wouldn't make a deck relying on it
> Eternal Vigilance !! - very good
> Templar (also usable by Bishops) - decent card
>
> If you've got a deck that makes gratuitous use of any of the
> above cards, you can really hamstring that deck.
The thing is, that few decks does. And those who do have Cardinal
Benedictions and Cardinal/Prisci vamps in it too.
> It might
> have some Crusades in the deck, but if the player is counting
> on natural titles, it could really hurt if that title isn't there anymore.
> Plus, if you have an !Ventrue voting deck (which is much more
> possible these days), it sure doesn't hurt being able to take
> down the opposition fairly easily.
Wich I think is good they can actually. I like the angle WW has made with
the !Ventrue. Instead of gaining lot sof votes they take away others' and
pass their votes through that. So this ability fits them well and yet isn't
THAT powerful since no inherent stealth. Adding stealth through
obtenebration is all good, but you'll need that stealth for so many othing
things too, like passing the political actions so you will have to be
careful what you spend your stealth on.
>
> > > > and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Ventrue is never wrong
> > > > either.> > Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.'
> > Yes I think he's too powerful as well. Point wise he's as good as Little
> > Tailor of Prague. But htis just shows how careful you have to be with
> using
> > the point system and making a Priscus vote equal 1 point etc.
>
> It should definitely be worth at least 2. When do you ever see more than
> 1 Priscus on the table? Even if there are, the Prisci block is pretty
> powerful.
> 3 votes?
Definately, it should be worth 2 points.
Sorrow
> > the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
> Hey you've only seen 2 of them ! I was also reluctant at Shy's art at
> first, but the job he did for Final Nights is really good. Just wait and
> see.
Except that Shy has done _several_ of the vampires in Sabbat War...
> And don't complain, it could have been Drew Tucker ;)
Very true...
> > The art for Patshiv kicks ass. :p
> yes but it's not a brand new card : Superior Media influence and "that
> titled sabbat card" still do the same thing.
True, but both cost.
> > Agreed. Plus, he as DOM. Why'd he need the +1 bleed?
> Yes this vampire is powerful. Not too much. Don't forget some camarilla
> vampires with +2 Bleed and 4 votes,
That cost *11*
> or +1 stealth and archon ability...
It is widely agreed that Muaziz is waaaay underpriced.
> Don't forget those vampire from the first set of jyhad which allow you to
> play 2 master cards a turn,
I think Anson should have cost perhaps 1 more for this ability.
> untap between turns
Masika costs 10
> or tap to end combat and inflict damage to other minions.
This isn't that great of an ability. Plus, each of the above affects you.
Guztav's
special affects other players. And not only that, but it affects a poweful
resource
in the game. Titles are pretty significant in the game, whether they are
used or
not. I know I've often used vamps in my crypt with title just for vote
defense
(or Bribes) even though I'm not using votes.
> And what about some 10 cap cardinal monster which can inflict 2 aggravated
> hand damage at will ?
Again, he is a *10*. Plus, it costs.
> Gustav is cool but not a powerhouse.
Remember you said that when he starts seeing use and your Sabbat titles
start
disappearing...
> > Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting the
> > action to remove a title through.
> All you have to do is pack some more permanent intercept. With inferior
Obt,
> sure he can sometime go up to 3 stealth, but a sport bike and a +1
intercept
> location, and he's already in trouble. Or maybe just put some Prisci and
> Cardinals in your deck, as their titles ar untouchable.
If you put a skill card on him, I've got 2 words: Shadow Body.
The action goes through and you've got a wake and more intercept? Change
of Target. You not only wasted your Wake but your Intercept as well.
And all it did was buy your Archbishop another turn...
> > > and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is never wrong
> >> either.
> > Nope. And that's where it should have stayed.
> the !ventrue really needed someone titled : hey even now they still have
> only *one* archbishop, *one* cardinal and *one* priscus. Compare that to
> their camarilla counterparts, which can Parity shift and voter cap...
> Better vampires for the sabbat clans are still welcome =)
Note that I said that the title is where Gustav should have stayed at.
The +1 bleed and title removing special is overpowered for the price.
Roger Carhult
--
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c5fnhtoautkdoaolh...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:04:40 +0200, "Roger Carhult"
> <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote:
>
> >Gustav Mallenhous a !Ventrue 8 cap vampire. Hmm he's is really good. Some
> >people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
> >powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't
the
> >case, at least this new guy fits into that. I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
> >unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too. Anyway, what I
>
> Hm. Point count!
>
> 2 superiors = +4
> 2 inferiors = +2
> Title = +1
> Special = +1
> +1 bleed = +1
>
> which works out to 9. This fits the formula LSJ tossed out earlier
> (Message-ID: <3B028520...@white-wolf.com>) where 7- and 8-caps
> get cap+1 points in disciplines, specials, etc.
But that's just looking at the straight mathematics and not counting in how
they interact with each other.
It's a BIG difference between a 8 cap !Malk that looks like:
AUS, CHI, OBF, dem and with a bishop title and with Imogen's ability
OR:
OBF, DEM, AUS and Priscus and +1 bleed. And this is even only 8 points....
>
> The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
> than four two-caps if they don't.
This is true but pleeease if you have DOM and +1 bleed that's _really_
powerful, especially with fortitude (daring the dawn etc) and obtenebration
AND 3 votes AND a good ability. They could have made him a bishop instead
which would have been the same points... Just anything that combined like
this wouldn't be quite as powerful. I'd still use him!
>
> >really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes him great for a
> >!Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and Gerard. Also his
> >ability is quite cool, and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue
is
> >never wrong either.
>
> That bit scares me, actually. The !Ventrue did not have a Priscus
> previously, and they were STILL quite capable of forcing votes through
> 1 to 0. Now they have Gustav, Kyle, Quentin, and Lazverinuts with
> titles: that's a total of 9 positive votes, none of which interfere
> with each other. And each of the following count effectively as
> anywhere from 1 to 3 additional votes, depending on what table votes
> are at the table:
Well for how much pool?? You can enver bring them all out without lots of
minion taps and transfers. And then how'd you fill them back up without
presence? I don't see this as a reality. However they _can_ become quite
strong with the votes now. But I like it. The !Ventrue certainly should have
a Prisus since they're voter clan and the only one(?) who didn't have one
yet which didn't make sense. I also like abilities that are useful, not like
the ones Daruis Styx etc have who you just never use.
>
> Quentin's special ability
> Telepathic Vote Counting
> Kindred Manipulation
> Demonstration
>
> Icky. And of course, for vote defense, superior Dominate provides
> Pulling Strings and Kindred Coercion - use as necessary, although your
> own titles could be sufficient.
Yepp, but still the Ventrue can overcome this really, they will just have to
work harder for it. They have more titled vampires and and bring out more of
them by bloating. Plus the card VEKN is really powerful if used right.
>
> >The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth
action)
> >is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
> >they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
> >for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy
with
> >blood gain together witht his card.
>
> All the current Chimerstry cards cost blood, though. I don't see
> blood GAIN ever being an issue with this card, even if a Path of
> Paradox landed in the set as well. =)
Isn't it funny, wasn't it with you I had an argument some month(s) ago about
that a save of blood cannot be defined as gain but you didn't agree with me?
And now you're saying the same thing...
But I did't mean that Paradox would gain you blood. But you would be able to
hoarde up blood better with Restoration and this card. Playing Fata Morgana
for free for extra stealth to pull it off certainly isn't bad. The untapped
vampires-condition for Patshiv is at least limiting it so a lot of Embraces
can't work wonders for you =)
Derek Ray
It's too conditional, and zero stealth.
It's no good against Camarilla voters, PERIOD - and the most dangerous
vote deck out there is still the Ventrue Law Firm. Right behind it
are the Toreador/!Toreador Presence monstrosities - but they do it
without using permanent titles. Right behind THAT is the weenie PRE
mob that stacks up Praxis Seizures. It's no good against any of
these.
Meshenka, Gratiano, Lambach, Kendrick, and Korah are five of the most
common Sabbat titled vampires in the game right now. He can't touch
any of them with his special, and he loses his OWN votes if Meshenka,
Gratiano, Kendrick, or Korah are out.
The most common Sabbat "create votes from thin air" card? Cardinal
Benediction. Not vulnerable to his special.
So with all those conditions... are you going to use an 8-cap, +1
bleeder and some weak Obtenebration stealth just to go and try to
remove Cailean's title, which he either isn't using, or is using for
things like Eternal Vigilance, which means he's an intercept deck and
will stop you? Note that OBT stealth doesn't fit well into a !Ventrue
deck, and I'd rather have Gratiano as my Lasombra Priscus.
...That's what Excommunication is for.
(card text: Political Card - Worth 1 Vote. Called by any Sabbat
vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a ready Archbishop. Successful
referendum means the chosen Archbishop loses his or her title.)
Reyda
> > > > Anyway, what I really like about him is that he has obtenebration,
> makes
> > > Too powerful, IMO. With Obt, he shouldn't have any probelms getting
the
> > > action to remove a title through.
> > Well he'll have max +2 in stealth on that action (3 if skill card on him
and
> > then it gets hard to stop) and I'd rather bleed with that stealth I
think.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. Plus, if he does get a skill card, he'd have access to
> Shadow Body and since this isn't a PA or a bleed action...
Shadow body is not a threat. I know which vampire i use when it comes to
*real* intercept&block, but i
think the array is quite large. You can evade shadow body with Immortal
Grapple, Thoughts betrayed, Psyche, Dog Pack, multiple weather control,
Rotschrek, Purchase pact, fast reaction. And even with Mariel's power ;)
The question is : if Gustav would have been a 10 cap, would you really have
played him ? I know that, for the same cost, i for sure would play
Lazverinus
instead. Call it metagame or playing style ! but i think that's good to have
him at eight capacity. the !ventrue were the only clan to have zero titles
under the 9 cap = more than 2 influence phase to get a title...
reyda
Derek Ray
<rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote:
>--
Can you do anything to make these things not show up in your messages?
They totally ruin quoting systems, since they register as a
"signature" mark block and then no-quote-signature options take
effect. Manually copying/pasting is a pain. =/
>"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:c5fnhtoautkdoaolh...@4ax.com...
>> 2 superiors = +4
>> 2 inferiors = +2
>> Title = +1
>> Special = +1
>> +1 bleed = +1
>>
>> which works out to 9. This fits the formula LSJ tossed out earlier
>> (Message-ID: <3B028520...@white-wolf.com>) where 7- and 8-caps
>> get cap+1 points in disciplines, specials, etc.
>
>But that's just looking at the straight mathematics and not counting in how
>they interact with each other.
It never matters though. Look at Chas: POT/DOM on a 4-cap is 4
points, which is +1. He has a special: +1 strength against titled
vamps. He has -2 points worth of disadvantage, so he fits.
POT/DOM interact -very- well, but that -2 disadvantage is huge. (I
don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
>> The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
>> than four two-caps if they don't.
>
>This is true but pleeease if you have DOM and +1 bleed that's _really_
>powerful, especially with fortitude (daring the dawn etc) and obtenebration
Bleed bounce, baby. Go on and stack up that unblockable bleed for 8
with Govern, Command of the Beast and Conditioning. Go for it. Watch
your prey gain 6 pool after the Deflection.
The biggest advantage I see to +1 bleed and DOM is that he bleeds for
3 at +1 stealth by using nothing but Bonding.
>AND 3 votes AND a good ability. They could have made him a bishop instead
>which would have been the same points... Just anything that combined like
>this wouldn't be quite as powerful. I'd still use him!
So, is he more or less powerful than March Halcyon, Rufina Soledad,
Giuliano Vincenzi, and Lolita... who together cost 8, who all have the
same inferior Fortitude that Gustav does, and who can all bleed you
with Computer Hacking?
If you're worried about +1 bleed and DOM, just keep in mind that his
inferior Fortitude means that he is RIPE for an ass-kicking, and can't
defend himself against it too well.
>> That bit scares me, actually. The !Ventrue did not have a Priscus
>> previously, and they were STILL quite capable of forcing votes through
>> 1 to 0. Now they have Gustav, Kyle, Quentin, and Lazverinuts with
>> titles: that's a total of 9 positive votes, none of which interfere
>> with each other. And each of the following count effectively as
>> anywhere from 1 to 3 additional votes, depending on what table votes
>> are at the table:
>
>Well for how much pool?? You can enver bring them all out without lots of
>minion taps and transfers. And then how'd you fill them back up without
This doesn't seem to be a problem for the Ventrue Law Firm, which
routinely hauls out 4 or 5 guys of 8-cap or better and then Minion
Taps them to pay for the next one out of the bin. Yes, the !Ventrue
can't QUITE as easily fill them back up, but that's just as well,
really. "Your Guys Don't Vote" is much more powerful than "I Got Lots
of Votes".
But that isn't the point. All you need are Quentin and Gustav, and
each of your votes has 5 in favor. Now you just make use of the
!Ventrue toys (listed below), and you should be easily able to make
sure that there are no more than 4 votes against.
>> Quentin's special ability
>> Telepathic Vote Counting
>> Kindred Manipulation
>> Demonstration
>>
>> Icky. And of course, for vote defense, superior Dominate provides
>> Pulling Strings and Kindred Coercion - use as necessary, although your
>> own titles could be sufficient.
>
>Yepp, but still the Ventrue can overcome this really, they will just have to
>work harder for it. They have more titled vampires and and bring out more of
>them by bloating. Plus the card VEKN is really powerful if used right.
Quentin plays Kindred Coercion at superior, spending 3 of his 9 blood.
Sir Walter Nash, Emerson Bridges, and Tim Crowley all change their
votes to vote with Quentin - bad news if any of them have played an
Awe or Bewitching Oration.
Quentin now uses his special ability to cancel Democritus' votes.
Poof! One vampire playing one card has just shut down the entire
Ventrue Law Firm. And really, he didn't need to change everyone's
votes: he only needed to change Nash and Bridges, or whoever played
the BO or Awe. It's even probable that he didn't need to cancel
Democritus' votes, since 7 to 4 is still failing.
And Nash, Bridges, and Crowley can't do it back, because they're
YOUNGER.
Bloat sounds entertaining, until you realize that the !Ventrue have
superior Auspex, and all the card slots that are normally taken up
with things like 2nd Tradition and 5th Tradition are open to be used
as intercept.
Playing Elder Kindred Network is a reaction, meaning that Kindred
Manipulation and Telepathic Vote Counting are available to beat down
any hostile votes as well. These guys are pretty damned powerful if
you set them up right.
>> All the current Chimerstry cards cost blood, though. I don't see
>> blood GAIN ever being an issue with this card, even if a Path of
>> Paradox landed in the set as well. =)
>
>Isn't it funny, wasn't it with you I had an argument some month(s) ago about
>that a save of blood cannot be defined as gain but you didn't agree with me?
>And now you're saying the same thing...
No, actually, that wasn't me. The conversation you remember was the
big Archon Investigation stink, where paying 3 pool to stop a bleed of
6 was somehow incorrectly defined as gaining 3 pool. =) Nice try
though. ;) (I stayed out of that conversation for some reason.
Burst of politeness, I guess.)
But having played the Ravnos quite a bit, I can assure you that if
they try to use Chimerstry, they generally hemorrhage blood in a
fashion remarkably similar to Old Faithful. Patshiv will be nice to
help put some blood back ON them, so that they can keep playing their
cards... as opposed to providing blood/pool gain, which is what I
think of when someone mentions a Tribute/Patshiv pairup.
>But I did't mean that Paradox would gain you blood. But you would be able to
>hoarde up blood better with Restoration and this card. Playing Fata Morgana
>for free for extra stealth to pull it off certainly isn't bad. The untapped
>vampires-condition for Patshiv is at least limiting it so a lot of Embraces
>can't work wonders for you =)
I don't see the Ravnos EVER being able to manage massive pool gain
effectively. I can see them not emptying themselves after two
actions, possibly. =)
Ian Lee
>people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
>powerful, perhaps too powerful.
Here's what I would have done with Gustav:
C = 8
DOM, FOR, AUS
Archbishop [San Diego?]
useful special and/or nonclan discipline
First, !Ventrue, for whatever reason, can't seem to get their inclan
disciplines at superior. This is a major weakness. Second, the voting power
of the !Ventrue would be more stable with more guaranteed votes. I'm all for
them having a priscus, but their overall lack of votes is pretty lame.
>The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth action)
>is nice as well.
This card bores me. It's only useful in a horde deck. It's similar to
numerous cards in the game. It doesn't solve any problems they may have unless
encouraging a weenie deck is a problem solver.
Peter Oh
Is this the name of an actual deck listed somewhere? If so, could someone
hit me with a URL? Thanks.
To Derek: I took a slightly modified version of your Crypt Machine deck with
me to my first constructed tourney in NJ. Did pretty well, getting 3 VP's
and something like 14th in a field of 35. Just wanted to throw a thank you
your way.
Peter Oh
Reyda
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> and some other folks wrote this :
> It never matters though. Look at Chas: POT/DOM on a 4-cap is 4
> points, which is +1. He has a special: +1 strength against titled
> vamps. He has -2 points worth of disadvantage, so he fits.
Why look at it as an important disadvantage ?
this guy can still block & bruise or plain deflection without tapping.
The master discard costs a master phase action, so a prey cancelling Chas
action will not be able to play Archon investigation or Direct Intervention
this turn, and no minion tap or ToGP on his incoming turn. Just have in mind
that his flaw can be an advantage when relying on those Jedi mind tricks
(tm).
> POT/DOM interact -very- well, but that -2 disadvantage is huge. (I
> don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
> points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
If you play multiple jimmy dunns, you can send him on a desperate action
(like rushing a famous vamp in day op) and then don't bother to bring him
back from torpor. Just put another one in play. You can see it as a not so
big disadvantage.
Not being able to block is a huge disadvantage for me : Navar and Monçada
share the same flaw. Now, it's also that kind of metagame/playstyle thing =)
> >> The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
> >> than four two-caps if they don't.
> >
> >This is true but pleeease if you have DOM and +1 bleed that's _really_
> >powerful, especially with fortitude (daring the dawn etc) and
obtenebration
I've got only one word : look up at some of the IC members. +3 bleed and
DOM, and PRO or OBF... Okay you pay them 11 pool instead of 8 for Gustav,
but i think it's worth the investment. For 8 pool, you also have this
Malkavian with Presence & Quietus wich has +1 bleed and an additional +1 if
your prey has Sabbat or independent vampires (which happen almost all the
time). This guy with OBF can bleed for 6 and even make you gain a pool if
successful.
> Bleed bounce, baby. Go on and stack up that unblockable bleed for 8
> with Govern, Command of the Beast and Conditioning. Go for it. Watch
> your prey gain 6 pool after the Deflection.
Derek's suggestion is still the more realistic ;)
> The biggest advantage I see to +1 bleed and DOM is that he bleeds for
> 3 at +1 stealth by using nothing but Bonding.
>
> >AND 3 votes AND a good ability. They could have made him a bishop instead
> >which would have been the same points... Just anything that combined like
> >this wouldn't be quite as powerful. I'd still use him!
>
> So, is he more or less powerful than March Halcyon, Rufina Soledad,
> Giuliano Vincenzi, and Lolita... who together cost 8, who all have the
> same inferior Fortitude that Gustav does, and who can all bleed you
> with Computer Hacking?
Agreed ! the "swarm tactics" is still the better.
> If you're worried about +1 bleed and DOM, just keep in mind that his
> inferior Fortitude means that he is RIPE for an ass-kicking, and can't
> defend himself against it too well.
sufficient enough against most Nosferatu or Lasombra decks who strike once
in a round. Celerity will handle inferior skin of steel for sure.
(snip part about !Ven vote supremacy)
> This doesn't seem to be a problem for the Ventrue Law Firm, which
> routinely hauls out 4 or 5 guys of 8-cap or better and then Minion
> Taps them to pay for the next one out of the bin. Yes, the !Ventrue
> can't QUITE as easily fill them back up, but that's just as well,
> really. "Your Guys Don't Vote" is much more powerful than "I Got Lots
> of Votes".
Not when you play with the ever popular Voter Cap & Minion Tap combo.
Passing votes by 1 or by 12 makes *no* difference if you don't play with
Voter Cap.
> Quentin plays Kindred Coercion at superior, spending 3 of his 9 blood.
>
> Sir Walter Nash, Emerson Bridges, and Tim Crowley all change their
> votes to vote with Quentin - bad news if any of them have played an
> Awe or Bewitching Oration.
>
> Quentin now uses his special ability to cancel Democritus' votes.
> Poof! One vampire playing one card has just shut down the entire
> Ventrue Law Firm. And really, he didn't need to change everyone's
> votes: he only needed to change Nash and Bridges, or whoever played
> the BO or Awe. It's even probable that he didn't need to cancel
> Democritus' votes, since 7 to 4 is still failing.
>
> And Nash, Bridges, and Crowley can't do it back, because they're
> YOUNGER.
So what ? call multiple votes a turn, so Quentin will soon be low on blood.
Just call an anathema or banishment on him then.
> Bloat sounds entertaining, until you realize that the !Ventrue have
> superior Auspex, and all the card slots that are normally taken up
> with things like 2nd Tradition and 5th Tradition are open to be used
> as intercept.
so by playing vote+anti vote+intercept+combat defense, your deck will be too
toolboxy to do anything correctly. I'm curious to see how you can make this
really work. Deck construction skill matters.
> Playing Elder Kindred Network is a reaction, meaning that Kindred
> Manipulation and Telepathic Vote Counting are available to beat down
> any hostile votes as well. These guys are pretty damned powerful if
> you set them up right.
You'll have to tune that up very carefully. !Ven are not invincible as
you're trying to suggest.
> >Isn't it funny, wasn't it with you I had an argument some month(s) ago
about
> >that a save of blood cannot be defined as gain but you didn't agree with
me?
> >And now you're saying the same thing...
>
> No, actually, that wasn't me. The conversation you remember was the
> big Archon Investigation stink, where paying 3 pool to stop a bleed of
> 6 was somehow incorrectly defined as gaining 3 pool. =) Nice try
> though. ;) (I stayed out of that conversation for some reason.
> Burst of politeness, I guess.)
It was me ;) I still maintain that paying 3 to avoid a 6 pool bleed this
turn and getting rid of the danger for all the incoming turns *is* a gain.
You can disagree if you want, but your predator is giving you pool when he
gives you the opportunity to play A.I... Think of it as a "benefit", if the
term suits you best. Again, i'm not involved in economics ;)
reyda
LSJ
> > > Yes I think he's too powerful as well. Point wise he's as good as Little
> > > Tailor of Prague. But htis just shows how careful you have to be with
> > using
> > > the point system and making a Priscus vote equal 1 point etc.
> >
> > It should definitely be worth at least 2. When do you ever see more than
> > 1 Priscus on the table? Even if there are, the Prisci block is pretty
> > powerful.
> > 3 votes?
>
> Definately, it should be worth 2 points.
You think a Prisci (share-3-votes) is worth more than a Cardinal (3 unshared votes)?
I don't see how that could be the case.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Roger Carhult
>
> Can you do anything to make these things not show up in your messages?
> They totally ruin quoting systems, since they register as a
> "signature" mark block and then no-quote-signature options take
> effect. Manually copying/pasting is a pain. =/
I don't get this. Do you mean the ">" marks? All usenet forums as well as
email clients use things like these and it's not only in my posts...??
Without them it would be very confusing to read replies to replies etc
figuring out who's saying what. And the problem it causes you I don't really
understand it, what's a signature mark block? Or were you talking about "--"
?? Those two lines just show up on every rpely I do, I usually remove them
because I find them annoying =P but sometimes I forget. If you know how to
get rid of them through Outlook Express please let me know.
> >"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:c5fnhtoautkdoaolh...@4ax.com...
> >> 2 superiors = +4
> >> 2 inferiors = +2
> >> Title = +1
> >> Special = +1
> >> +1 bleed = +1
> >>
> >> which works out to 9. This fits the formula LSJ tossed out earlier
> >> (Message-ID: <3B028520...@white-wolf.com>) where 7- and 8-caps
> >> get cap+1 points in disciplines, specials, etc.
> >
> >But that's just looking at the straight mathematics and not counting in
how
> >they interact with each other.
>
> It never matters though. Look at Chas: POT/DOM on a 4-cap is 4
> points, which is +1. He has a special: +1 strength against titled
> vamps. He has -2 points worth of disadvantage, so he fits.
What do you mean it never matters? It certainly matters how the points are
distributed, that's what makes the difference betweena sucky vampire and a
good one! For example Raven for Gangrels is a lot better than the Paladin
for !Ventrue. In CHas' case they were smart enough to give him a
disadvantage that was worth -2 points. But in my fictive case I showed how
it could matter, the !Malk #2 was distinctively much better than #1 and was
even worth a point less (or at least a half).
>
> POT/DOM interact -very- well, but that -2 disadvantage is huge. (I
> don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
> points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
>
> >> The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
> >> than four two-caps if they don't.
> >
> >This is true but pleeease if you have DOM and +1 bleed that's _really_
> >powerful, especially with fortitude (daring the dawn etc) and
obtenebration
>
> Bleed bounce, baby. Go on and stack up that unblockable bleed for 8
> with Govern, Command of the Beast and Conditioning. Go for it. Watch
> your prey gain 6 pool after the Deflection.
Take out the Command of the Beast and throw in a Revelations instead then
made by a weenie. Coupled with Aura Reading it *will* make you able to see
their cards at the very least, even if it's blocked. Ok this combo is bad
even without Gustav doing the bleed but his +1 bleed doesn't really help.
And at least in our metagames deflections aren't *that* common. I wouldn't
do the big bleed agaisnt a deflect deck, but if I have a Gangrel as my prey
I'd be safe doing it without having to play the Revelations. Even fortitude
at inferior is quite a nice help aginst casual combat.
> The biggest advantage I see to +1 bleed and DOM is that he bleeds for
> 3 at +1 stealth by using nothing but Bonding.
>
> >AND 3 votes AND a good ability. They could have made him a bishop instead
> >which would have been the same points... Just anything that combined like
> >this wouldn't be quite as powerful. I'd still use him!
>
> So, is he more or less powerful than March Halcyon, Rufina Soledad,
> Giuliano Vincenzi, and Lolita... who together cost 8, who all have the
> same inferior Fortitude that Gustav does, and who can all bleed you
> with Computer Hacking?
He has the votes and special ability on top of that. It was the combination
of all this that I was opposed to, not the +1 bleed in and by itself as I
indirectly stated many times.
> If you're worried about +1 bleed and DOM, just keep in mind that his
> inferior Fortitude means that he is RIPE for an ass-kicking, and can't
> defend himself against it too well.
>
> >> That bit scares me, actually. The !Ventrue did not have a Priscus
> >> previously, and they were STILL quite capable of forcing votes through
> >> 1 to 0. Now they have Gustav, Kyle, Quentin, and Lazverinuts with
> >> titles: that's a total of 9 positive votes, none of which interfere
> >> with each other. And each of the following count effectively as
> >> anywhere from 1 to 3 additional votes, depending on what table votes
> >> are at the table:
> >
> >Well for how much pool?? You can enver bring them all out without lots of
> >minion taps and transfers. And then how'd you fill them back up without
>
> This doesn't seem to be a problem for the Ventrue Law Firm, which
> routinely hauls out 4 or 5 guys of 8-cap or better and then Minion
> Taps them to pay for the next one out of the bin. Yes, the !Ventrue
> can't QUITE as easily fill them back up, but that's just as well,
> really. "Your Guys Don't Vote" is much more powerful than "I Got Lots
> of Votes".
I would say bloating is _significantly_ harder to do with !Ventrue than
Ventrue or most of the Camarilla for that matter. And for high caps, the
Camarilal wya of bloating will always be more effective.
>
> But that isn't the point. All you need are Quentin and Gustav, and
> each of your votes has 5 in favor. Now you just make use of the
> !Ventrue toys (listed below), and you should be easily able to make
> sure that there are no more than 4 votes against.
Ventrue Headquarters provide 3 of these. So only two more, or one if they
use a vote card. They also got Ventrue Directorate Assembly and Elysium:
Palace of Versailles.
>
> >> Quentin's special ability
> >> Telepathic Vote Counting
> >> Kindred Manipulation
> >> Demonstration
> >>
> >> Icky. And of course, for vote defense, superior Dominate provides
> >> Pulling Strings and Kindred Coercion - use as necessary, although your
> >> own titles could be sufficient.
> >
> >Yepp, but still the Ventrue can overcome this really, they will just have
to
> >work harder for it. They have more titled vampires and and bring out more
of
> >them by bloating. Plus the card VEKN is really powerful if used right.
>
> Quentin plays Kindred Coercion at superior, spending 3 of his 9 blood.
The Ventrue can do the same you know, and Quentin is a 9 so he cannot affect
the older vampires of the Ventrue while they can do it on him or the other
!Ventrues.
>
> Sir Walter Nash, Emerson Bridges, and Tim Crowley all change their
> votes to vote with Quentin - bad news if any of them have played an
> Awe or Bewitching Oration.
Which the Ventrue can do the same on the !Ventrue.
>
> Quentin now uses his special ability to cancel Democritus' votes.
> Poof! One vampire playing one card has just shut down the entire
> Ventrue Law Firm.
And with the Demonstration tapped and Kindred Coercion used Arika can now
play her Protect Thine Own...
>And really, he didn't need to change everyone's
> votes: he only needed to change Nash and Bridges, or whoever played
> the BO or Awe. It's even probable that he didn't need to cancel
> Democritus' votes, since 7 to 4 is still failing.
>
> And Nash, Bridges, and Crowley can't do it back, because they're
> YOUNGER.
But Democritus can.
>
> Bloat sounds entertaining, until you realize that the !Ventrue have
> superior Auspex, and all the card slots that are normally taken up
> with things like 2nd Tradition and 5th Tradition are open to be used
> as intercept.
That's true, but 2nd Tradition saves space in having the untap as well, you
need to have Wakes instead on top of the intercept. Instead of 5th Tradition
you will need soemthing else liek Restoration to fiull your high vampires
back up, else Quentin won't be able to use his ability much. Also instea dof
2nd Tradition they can use Voter Captivation at nice effect unless the pesky
!Ventrue are around as well =)
>
> Playing Elder Kindred Network is a reaction, meaning that Kindred
> Manipulation and Telepathic Vote Counting are available to beat down
> any hostile votes as well. These guys are pretty damned powerful if
> you set them up right.
And the Ventrue can use Pulling Strings and Kindred Coercion. Two Pulling
Strings on Gustav and possibly Quentin and you got nothing but the votes
from Kindrd Manipulation, Which Ventrue HQ, Dread Gaze etc should more than
negate.
I think the !Ventrue deifnately have the best chance agaisnt the Ventrue in
a "vote duel". And under the right circumstances they can beat them too, but
my general feeling is that Ventrue are still the strongest. A !Ventrue can
only cancel so many votes and putting in a ot of Pulling Strings etc doesn't
make them win any games since they cannot get any votes of them own throw.
The precense really help Ventrue for that, plus with for example Parity
shift they can bribe others with pool to vote with them and the !Ventrue
won't have much to say about it even with their vote cancelling. However
!Ventrue do have intercept which is a very nice annoying combo for voters =)
Personally I like !Ventrue a lot more than the Camarilla counterpart
actually, it's really fun to annoy others :P
The cammarilla have better support cards for voting too, like Ventrue HQ,
The Elysium of Versailles, Directorate Assembley and Closed Session for a
blodd less than the Sabbat's.
> >> All the current Chimerstry cards cost blood, though. I don't see
> >> blood GAIN ever being an issue with this card, even if a Path of
> >> Paradox landed in the set as well. =)
> >
> >Isn't it funny, wasn't it with you I had an argument some month(s) ago
about
> >that a save of blood cannot be defined as gain but you didn't agree with
me?
> >And now you're saying the same thing...
>
> No, actually, that wasn't me. The conversation you remember was the
> big Archon Investigation stink, where paying 3 pool to stop a bleed of
> 6 was somehow incorrectly defined as gaining 3 pool. =) Nice try
> though. ;) (I stayed out of that conversation for some reason.
> Burst of politeness, I guess.)
Hehe ok sorry then :)
>
> But having played the Ravnos quite a bit, I can assure you that if
> they try to use Chimerstry, they generally hemorrhage blood in a
> fashion remarkably similar to Old Faithful. Patshiv will be nice to
> help put some blood back ON them, so that they can keep playing their
> cards... as opposed to providing blood/pool gain, which is what I
> think of when someone mentions a Tribute/Patshiv pairup.
>
> >But I did't mean that Paradox would gain you blood. But you would be able
to
> >hoarde up blood better with Restoration and this card. Playing Fata
Morgana
> >for free for extra stealth to pull it off certainly isn't bad. The
untapped
> >vampires-condition for Patshiv is at least limiting it so a lot of
Embraces
> >can't work wonders for you =)
>
> I don't see the Ravnos EVER being able to manage massive pool gain
> effectively. I can see them not emptying themselves after two
> actions, possibly. =)
Haha with Path of Paradox there isn't really many Chimerstry cards that will
do this though. Most cost one blood. But of course they won't be a real
bloater, still there could be a significant change together with the right
cards, a few Restoration, Taste of VItae and the like.
Xian
> <snip agreement of everything>
[Gustav's ability]
> pass their votes through that. So this ability fits them well and yet isn't
> THAT powerful since no inherent stealth. Adding stealth through
> obtenebration is all good, but you'll need that stealth for so many othing
I like it, but umm...can we say special ability, Day Operation, Freak, Rapid
Healing? Ouch.
Xian
Roger Carhult
> It was me ;) I still maintain that paying 3 to avoid a 6 pool bleed this
> turn and getting rid of the danger for all the incoming turns *is* a gain.
> You can disagree if you want, but your predator is giving you pool when he
> gives you the opportunity to play A.I... Think of it as a "benefit", if
the
> term suits you best. Again, i'm not involved in economics ;)
>
> reyda
I'll only make this comment about it; it's a gain but not a pool gain. What
you gain is to not having to deal with the bleed which effects would be
worse. The correct economical term is a "save" of pool. You save yourself
the pool, think of it as that instead of trying to make me think of it as a
gain ;) Thing is that you're not richer by plaing AI than you were before.
That's why it's not a gain. By playing tons of AI you'll only oust yourself,
not having a huge pool. _Compared_ to if the bleed had gotten trhoguh you're
just less poor than you else would have been. You benefit from playing AI
yes, but it's not a *gain of pool* :)
Reyda
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> and some other folks wrote this :
> It never matters though. Look at Chas: POT/DOM on a 4-cap is 4
> points, which is +1. He has a special: +1 strength against titled
> vamps. He has -2 points worth of disadvantage, so he fits.
Why look at it as an important disadvantage ?
this guy can still block & bruise or plain deflection without tapping.
The master discard costs a master phase action, so a prey cancelling Chas
action will not be able to play Archon investigation or Direct Intervention
this turn, and no minion tap or ToGP on his incoming turn. Just have in mind
that his flaw can be an advantage when relying on those Jedi mind tricks
(tm).
> POT/DOM interact -very- well, but that -2 disadvantage is huge. (I
> don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
> points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
If you play multiple jimmy dunns, you can send him on a desperate action
(like rushing a famous vamp in day op) and then don't bother to bring him
back from torpor. Just put another one in play. You can see it as a not so
big disadvantage.
Not being able to block is a huge disadvantage for me : Navar and Monçada
share the same flaw. Now, it's also that kind of metagame/playstyle thing =)
> >> The big guys HAVE to kick ass, because they end up being worth less
> >> than four two-caps if they don't.
> >
> >This is true but pleeease if you have DOM and +1 bleed that's _really_
> >powerful, especially with fortitude (daring the dawn etc) and
obtenebration
I've got only one word : look up at some of the IC members. +3 bleed and
DOM, and PRO or OBF... Okay you pay them 11 pool instead of 8 for Gustav,
but i think it's worth the investment. For 8 pool, you also have this
Malkavian with Presence & Quietus wich has +1 bleed and an additional +1 if
your prey has Sabbat or independent vampires (which happen almost all the
time). This guy with OBF can bleed for 6 and even make you gain a pool if
successful.
> Bleed bounce, baby. Go on and stack up that unblockable bleed for 8
> with Govern, Command of the Beast and Conditioning. Go for it. Watch
> your prey gain 6 pool after the Deflection.
Derek's suggestion is still the more realistic ;)
> The biggest advantage I see to +1 bleed and DOM is that he bleeds for
> 3 at +1 stealth by using nothing but Bonding.
>
> >AND 3 votes AND a good ability. They could have made him a bishop instead
> >which would have been the same points... Just anything that combined like
> >this wouldn't be quite as powerful. I'd still use him!
>
> So, is he more or less powerful than March Halcyon, Rufina Soledad,
> Giuliano Vincenzi, and Lolita... who together cost 8, who all have the
> same inferior Fortitude that Gustav does, and who can all bleed you
> with Computer Hacking?
Agreed ! the "swarm tactics" is still the better.
> If you're worried about +1 bleed and DOM, just keep in mind that his
> inferior Fortitude means that he is RIPE for an ass-kicking, and can't
> defend himself against it too well.
sufficient enough against most Nosferatu or Lasombra decks who strike once
in a round. Celerity will handle inferior skin of steel for sure.
(snip part about !Ven vote supremacy)
> This doesn't seem to be a problem for the Ventrue Law Firm, which
> routinely hauls out 4 or 5 guys of 8-cap or better and then Minion
> Taps them to pay for the next one out of the bin. Yes, the !Ventrue
> can't QUITE as easily fill them back up, but that's just as well,
> really. "Your Guys Don't Vote" is much more powerful than "I Got Lots
> of Votes".
Not when you play with the ever popular Voter Cap & Minion Tap combo.
Passing votes by 1 or by 12 makes *no* difference if you don't play with
Voter Cap.
> Quentin plays Kindred Coercion at superior, spending 3 of his 9 blood.
>
> Sir Walter Nash, Emerson Bridges, and Tim Crowley all change their
> votes to vote with Quentin - bad news if any of them have played an
> Awe or Bewitching Oration.
>
> Quentin now uses his special ability to cancel Democritus' votes.
> Poof! One vampire playing one card has just shut down the entire
> Ventrue Law Firm. And really, he didn't need to change everyone's
> votes: he only needed to change Nash and Bridges, or whoever played
> the BO or Awe. It's even probable that he didn't need to cancel
> Democritus' votes, since 7 to 4 is still failing.
>
> And Nash, Bridges, and Crowley can't do it back, because they're
> YOUNGER.
So what ? call multiple votes a turn, so Quentin will soon be low on blood.
Just call an anathema or banishment on him then.
> Bloat sounds entertaining, until you realize that the !Ventrue have
> superior Auspex, and all the card slots that are normally taken up
> with things like 2nd Tradition and 5th Tradition are open to be used
> as intercept.
so by playing vote+anti vote+intercept+combat defense, your deck will be too
toolboxy to do anything correctly. I'm curious to see how you can make this
really work. Deck construction skill matters.
> Playing Elder Kindred Network is a reaction, meaning that Kindred
> Manipulation and Telepathic Vote Counting are available to beat down
> any hostile votes as well. These guys are pretty damned powerful if
> you set them up right.
You'll have to tune that up very carefully. !Ven are not invincible as
you're trying to suggest.
> >Isn't it funny, wasn't it with you I had an argument some month(s) ago
about
> >that a save of blood cannot be defined as gain but you didn't agree with
me?
> >And now you're saying the same thing...
>
> No, actually, that wasn't me. The conversation you remember was the
> big Archon Investigation stink, where paying 3 pool to stop a bleed of
> 6 was somehow incorrectly defined as gaining 3 pool. =) Nice try
> though. ;) (I stayed out of that conversation for some reason.
> Burst of politeness, I guess.)
It was me ;) I still maintain that paying 3 to avoid a 6 pool bleed this
Roger Carhult
--
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3B1BF964...@white-wolf.com...
> Roger Carhult wrote:
> > > > Yes I think he's too powerful as well. Point wise he's as good as
Little
> > > > Tailor of Prague. But htis just shows how careful you have to be
with
> > > using
> > > > the point system and making a Priscus vote equal 1 point etc.
> > >
> > > It should definitely be worth at least 2. When do you ever see more
than
> > > 1 Priscus on the table? Even if there are, the Prisci block is pretty
> > > powerful.
> > > 3 votes?
> >
> > Definately, it should be worth 2 points.
>
> You think a Prisci (share-3-votes) is worth more than a Cardinal (3
unshared votes)?
> I don't see how that could be the case.
You think a Prisci vote is only worth like a Bishop then with the general 3
votes agaisnt one and access to some very useful cards? I don't see how that
can be the case either. Maybe 1,5 points would be the most appropriate but
that's not desirable either.
Halcyan 2
>people have expressed worries that the new vampires get more and more
>powerful, perhaps too powerful. Sometimes I wonder myself if this isn't the
>case, at least this new guy fits into that.
I'll second that =)
>I feel his +1 bleed was a bit
>unnecessary, he'd be realyl great even without that too. Anyway, what I
>really like about him is that he has obtenebration, makes him great for a
>!Ventrue obtenebration deck together with Quentin and Gerard. Also his
>ability is quite cool, and a lower capped titles vampire for the !Vantrue is
>never wrong either.
Don't get me wrong. I like the Ventrue Anti's and I've always been annoyed by
their lack of votes (thus I'm happy to see a Priscus) but that special really
makes me feel icky. And as others have said, the +1 bleed seems to be a little
unnecessary. I know that point-wise he adds up, but once again his combination
of disciplines and abilities still make him overpowered IMHO.
To be honest, I'm really annoyed by that special since it can easily take away
an important resource. Obtenebration stealth and Fortitude unblockability can
get it done easily. At the very least, I would have preferred the special to be
a 0 stealth PA to get it removed (then he actually needs to do some more work).
Or maybe the titled vampire loses the title unless he/she burns a blood or two?
Or instead of changing the special, removed fortitude from Gustav to make it
easier to beat him up?
And while we're at it, I'll back Sorrow on the complaint that Christopher Shy
is doing too much vampire artwork. I really don't like most of his work
(Caliban and Idalia are exceptions).
>The Ravnos card Patshiv (+1 blood to all untapped Ravnos. +1 stealth action)
>is nice as well. However it makes me a bit worried because it might mean
>they won't get a Path of the Paradox, something I personally really hope
>for. If they DO get th Path then the Ravnos will maybe have it too easy with
>blood gain together witht his card.
>
It could just be me but I'm not all too impressed with Patshiv. The picture is
pretty cool and I know the Ravnos need all the blood help they can get but I
don't think Patshiv will help *too* much. It just seems like a cheap knock-off
of sup. Media Influence to me. You need lots of Ravnos to make it more useful
but that's hard enough without good pool gain. I suppose if you have several
Ravnos, you could have them each Patshiv and Freak Drive.
Interestingly enough, don't forget that unlike Blood Feast and Media Influence,
Patshiv works on ALL Ravnos that are untapped and ready. So other Ravnos
players can help give you blood and you can help your allied Methualehs that
play Ravnos as well. But then again, the Patshiv could help provide blood to
your predator and prey as well.
Halcyan 2
James Coupe
<rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
>If you know how to
>get rid of them through Outlook Express please let me know.
The most effective way is to use a non-Microsoft product.
FreeAgent gets many recommendations. Doing this will result in use of a
news-reader which doesn't break dozens of RFC requirements.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
"You reinstall Dial-Up Networking. The Elf screams and becomes EBD690ECD7A1F
an icon. *** CONGRATULATIONS! *** You completed the BT Internet B457CA213D7E6
Helpdesk training course in 15 out of a possible 9000 moves." 68C3695D623D5D
Roger Carhult
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:GvHBGuDh...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
> In message <9fguh1$akp$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Roger Carhult
> <rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
> >If you know how to
> >get rid of them through Outlook Express please let me know.
>
> The most effective way is to use a non-Microsoft product.
>
> FreeAgent gets many recommendations. Doing this will result in use of a
> news-reader which doesn't break dozens of RFC requirements.
Well I'm losing the net in like a couple of days (except for some week(s) in
August wheren I'll have it again) so you'll all get rid of me anyway =)
Feels unnecessary to go through the hassle with so little time left.
LSJ
> > > Definately, it should be worth 2 points.
> >
> > You think a Prisci (share-3-votes) is worth more than a Cardinal (3
> unshared votes)?
> > I don't see how that could be the case.
>
> You think a Prisci vote is only worth like a Bishop then with the general 3
> votes agaisnt one and access to some very useful cards? I don't see how that
> can be the case either. Maybe 1,5 points would be the most appropriate but
> that's not desirable either.
Bishop = 0.5
Prisci = 1.0
Archbishop = 1.0
Cardinal = 1.5
Roger Carhult
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3B1C3A75...@white-wolf.com...
> Roger Carhult wrote:
> > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
> > > Roger Carhult wrote:
> > > > Definately, it should be worth 2 points.
> > >
> > > You think a Prisci (share-3-votes) is worth more than a Cardinal (3
> > unshared votes)?
> > > I don't see how that could be the case.
> >
> > You think a Prisci vote is only worth like a Bishop then with the
general 3
> > votes agaisnt one and access to some very useful cards? I don't see how
that
> > can be the case either. Maybe 1,5 points would be the most appropriate
but
> > that's not desirable either.
>
> Bishop = 0.5
> Prisci = 1.0
> Archbishop = 1.0
> Cardinal = 1.5
This makes more sense as long as the half points are not rounded up or down.
So that an 8 cap actually gets 9 pts of abilities and not 8.5 pts.
theventrue
> > First let me say, "WTF is up with Christopher Shy doing like 90% of
> > the artwork for the vamps?". His vamp artwork just plain sucks, IMO.
>
> Hey you've only seen 2 of them ! I was also reluctant at Shy's art at
> first, but the job he did for Final Nights is really good. Just wait and
> see. And don't complain, it could have been Drew Tucker ;)
>
Pat Ricochet
> Is this the name of an actual deck listed somewhere? If so, could someone
> hit me with a URL? Thanks.
It's not that I know of; just the usual "no-brainer" Ventrue
Vote/Bloat/Bleed/Bounce table sweeper. (Ok, it takes more brains than Malk
S&B, but it's gawdoffal effective, and it's not hard to design an effective
Ventrue deck built around the Princes.)
I'll take credit for the name, though. I referred to the crypt of such
Ventrue Prince decks as "Nash, Bridges, and Crowley, the Ventrue Law Firm"
(since it sounds *exactly* like a typical law firm name.) Wilhelm Waldberg
is sometimes referred to as the "new partner."
Anyway, the name stuck, and now our whole group calls it that, but
occasionally confuses visitors/outsiders/newsgroups. =)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
"You can't make a fact out of an opinion by raising your voice."
Noal McDonald
> POT/DOM interact -very- well, but that -2 disadvantage is huge. (I
> don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
> points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
You knew that as soon as you maligned Uriah Winter, I would have to
chime in. Uriah does not have a disadvantage. He has a special
ability.
Nowhere else in the game can you cram a vampire down your prey's
throat. If Uriah doesn't just scream "Betrayer Deck," I don't know
who does. That's without getting into turning him into a Brujah with
Vasilis and giving all of your Giovanni +1 bleed.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
Visteon Global Unix Support
Sorrow
> chime in. Uriah does not have a disadvantage. He has a special
> ability.
> Nowhere else in the game can you cram a vampire down your prey's
> throat. If Uriah doesn't just scream "Betrayer Deck," I don't know
> who does. That's without getting into turning him into a Brujah with
> Vasilis and giving all of your Giovanni +1 bleed.
Gimick uses, at best.
Betrayer - 1, *mabye* 2 uses at most. Who wouldn't burn 2 pool to
guess a sure thing? Plus, by that time, Uriah has most likely moved on
to your grand prey. What? Going to use Betrayer against that player,
too?
Giovanni +bleed - you need 2 out of clan vamps and Revelation of the
Sire. And you need them at the same time, hopefully close to the start
of the game. And ok, so Uriah moves on giving your Giovanni +1 bleed.
How long is it going to be before Uriah moves on again and thereby
removing the bonus?
Why even bother with either?
Noal McDonald
> Gimick uses, at best.
Silly Chris. Kicks are for Trids.
It's those "gimmick uses" that keep the game interesting to me. Sure the
same tired old stategies are effective, but I don't want to spend 6-8
hours at a tournament yawning the whole time. If I wanted to play
paper-rock-scissors for that long, I'll go play in a Vampire LARP with
a bunch of lame goth grim bunnies about 10-15 years younger than me.
> Betrayer - 1, *mabye* 2 uses at most. Who wouldn't burn 2 pool to
> guess a sure thing? Plus, by that time, Uriah has most likely moved on
> to your grand prey. What? Going to use Betrayer against that player,
> too?
Three words: Seeds of Corruption.
Slap that on him and he stays put. Then you use Anson/RoG & Parthenon to
roll out 2-3 Betrayers a turn.
> Giovanni +bleed - you need 2 out of clan vamps and Revelation of the
> Sire. And you need them at the same time, hopefully close to the start
> of the game. And ok, so Uriah moves on giving your Giovanni +1 bleed.
> How long is it going to be before Uriah moves on again and thereby
> removing the bonus?
I've been using this concept in decks off and on since 1998. Trust me,
it can be quite effective. I've gotten the mix of the crypt to the point
that I have _never_ not gotten Uriah, Vasilis and a Giovanni in my opening
draw. The trick is to add Betrayers to him so that when he moves on, you
can bring out another copy without fear of contestation. Adding a Thanks
for the Donation tends to be a final convincing factor.
Never underestemate giving an inherent +1 bleed to a clan that already has
Dominate. Esp. since the new set already has a 4 cap with DOM. By the time
Uriah does move on, you should be well within reach of ousting your prey.
> Why even bother with either?
Because, Chris, it is effective and, more importantly, it's fun.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN PRince of Metro Detroit, MI
Roger Carhult
--
"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:bb705c59.01060...@posting.google.com...
> "Sorrow" <jcb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Gimick uses, at best.
>
> Silly Chris. Kicks are for Trids.
>
> It's those "gimmick uses" that keep the game interesting to me. Sure the
> same tired old stategies are effective, but I don't want to spend 6-8
> hours at a tournament yawning the whole time. If I wanted to play
> paper-rock-scissors for that long, I'll go play in a Vampire LARP with
> a bunch of lame goth grim bunnies about 10-15 years younger than me.
>
> > Betrayer - 1, *mabye* 2 uses at most. Who wouldn't burn 2 pool to
> > guess a sure thing? Plus, by that time, Uriah has most likely moved on
> > to your grand prey. What? Going to use Betrayer against that player,
> > too?
>
> Three words: Seeds of Corruption.
Seeds doesn't take away Uriah's disadvantage. Seeds can only take away
abilities and Uriah's ins't an ability, it's a disadvantage.
James Coupe
<rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
>Seeds doesn't take away Uriah's disadvantage. Seeds can only take away
>abilities and Uriah's ins't an ability, it's a disadvantage.
You are not correct.
A disadvantage is something which restricts a vampire from doing
something. Uriah is not restricted in any way.
Roger Carhult
--
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:AtpgmRZY...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
> In message <9fjqgi$svt$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Roger Carhult
> <rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
> >Seeds doesn't take away Uriah's disadvantage. Seeds can only take away
> >abilities and Uriah's ins't an ability, it's a disadvantage.
>
> You are not correct.
>
> A disadvantage is something which restricts a vampire from doing
> something. Uriah is not restricted in any way.
>
Well the text resctricts the owner in what ways he may keep the control of
Uriah?
James Coupe
<rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
>> A disadvantage is something which restricts a vampire from doing
>> something. Uriah is not restricted in any way.
>>
>
>Well the text resctricts the owner in what ways he may keep the control of
>Uriah?
The text is *not* a restriction.
Roger Carhult
"James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:TtQk2ze8...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
> In message <9fjrnv$10f$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Roger Carhult
> <rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
> >> A disadvantage is something which restricts a vampire from doing
> >> something. Uriah is not restricted in any way.
> >>
> >
> >Well the text resctricts the owner in what ways he may keep the control
of
> >Uriah?
>
> The text is *not* a restriction.
Then how do you define a restriction? How can you know when something
negative is a restriction or not? I thought that anything negative means
that that minion is limited in one way or another. If it's limited it's also
restricted.
Pat Ricochet
>
>
> "James Coupe" <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:TtQk2ze8...@obeah.demon.co.uk...
>> In message <9fjrnv$10f$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk>, Roger Carhult
>> <rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
>>>> A disadvantage is something which restricts a vampire from doing
>>>> something. Uriah is not restricted in any way.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well the text resctricts the owner in what ways he may keep the control
> of
>>> Uriah?
>>
>> The text is *not* a restriction.
>
> Then how do you define a restriction?
Usually, very simply. "So-and-so cannot do/have/block/equip X." Even
more generally, it's usually in the form "NAME cannot VERB NOUN." It's
something that you can't do, not just "something bad about the vampire."
> How can you know when something
> negative is a restriction or not?
See above.
> I thought that anything negative means
> that that minion is limited in one way or another. If it's limited it's also
> restricted.
That's one (loose and incorrect) way to interpret it. Don't take the
fact that "limited" and "restricted" are synonyms to build upon the
unsupported statement that "anything negative means the minion is limited."
(Unsupported by the rules, I mean.)
One thing I wonder about though is that Seeds of Corruption (at least,
my copy right here) says: "The vampire with this card cannot USE his or her
special abilities." It doesn't say "The vampire with this card HAS no
special abilities."
The ruling says:
"Special ability" includes all non-sect, non-title text. (note that this
only means that the affected vampire cannot do anything that he is allowed
to do only by special ability - not that he can now overcome some special
restriction. Assamites still cannot commit diablerie, for example)
[LSJ 19970801]
It seems obvious that Kalinda cannot use her built in Kine Dominance,
but not so clear whether or not Bianca has +1 strength, or if Uriah stops
passing on. I mean, which are really being "used" by the vampire?
Halcyan 2
>> don't think there's another one in the game I would refer to as "-2
>> points' worth", except maybe Uriah Winter's or Jimmy Dunn's.)
>
>You knew that as soon as you maligned Uriah Winter, I would have to
>chime in. Uriah does not have a disadvantage. He has a special
>ability.
I think Uriah has a special ability that is a disadvantage. But under certain
circumstances (like in those decks you mentioned), the disadvantage can be
turned into an advantage, but the special ability is still a disadvantage
overall.
Halcyan 2
Pat Ricochet
It's semantics so that a ruling doesn't come down, ruining all his Uriah
Winter/Seeds of Corruption Trojan horse decks. It HAS to be a "special
ability." =)
He does have a "disadvantage," but that starts to sound too much like
"restriction," which Seeds doesn't cover.
Also, when you've got 3+ Uriah decks, it damn well LOOKS like an
advantage, even "overall." =)
Tom, Mad&Co
> abilities and Uriah's ins't an ability, it's a disadvantage.
You are mispelling the card text. Seeds of Corruption removes the vampire's
"text", not abilities. It doesn't remove titles, anyway...
Ok, it's a really sophisticated and difficult to play combo, but it's one of
the very best uses I've seen around to bulid a Betrayer deck. Another option
was to play with Recruitment and a crypt composed of all the vamps in the
game. I know, a stupid deck strategy. But through this strategies is how the
fun in deck construction goes around... I still remeber the first time I
played a weenie tremere deck with 30 Cryptic Mission and 20 weather
controls. People laughed at first. But they feared it soon..
I'm fed up of those Minion Tap-Fifth tradition decks or those ol'style
gangrel wynn deck, or so. The game has some room for variety and
deckbuilding around odd strategies is not that bad...
Tom, Mad&Co
Noal McDonald
> It's semantics so that a ruling doesn't come down, ruining all his Uriah
> Winter/Seeds of Corruption Trojan horse decks. It HAS to be a "special
> ability." =)
Actually, a ruling already has come down. LSJ answered this question years
ago when I designed and published the first Uriah Winter "Trojan Horse of
the Giovanni" deck.
LSJ specifically said, and I quote:
Uriah wouldn't defect, since that would be "using" the special ability.
Refer to the following URL for the complete thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&th=83285dd0d38337a2,6
I know Uriah Winter better than anyone. Telling me I'm wrong about something
that affects Uriah is like telling LSJ that he doesn't know anything about
the rules of VTES. Both statements are just plain silly.
...and I still maintain that it's not a disadvantage at all.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
Uriah Winter's Best Friend
LSJ
> Seeds doesn't take away Uriah's disadvantage. Seeds can only take away
> abilities and Uriah's ins't an ability, it's a disadvantage.
It is an ability. You cannot normally give your prey your vampire.
Seeds would take away that ability.
Roger Carhult
I don't question your knowledge of Uriah, but I do not understand how the
rulings are made and I'm not satisfied with the answer either. If I hhold up
an apple and even your President says that it's not an apple that makes no
impression on me unless he have good arguments for proving me wrong.
I'd like to know where in the rules it says a resctriction should be
interpreted in the way you do. To me his text is clearly a restriction. That
you can use it to your advantage in some corner cases doesn't matter at all.
Most people think Chas' text is a restriction while I don't view it like
that - I thinkit's a great opportunity to make people waste MPA's. But I do
understand that the generally view can't be this. The *intention* is that it
is meant to be a restriction, whether I find cases where it works to my
advantage is irrelevant. In most cases Uriah's text is clearly a
disadvantage. It's not positive for you to spend a pool for a minion just to
give it away to your prey so he can block with him! The fact that he also
have two (very good combos of) disciplines at cap 1 supports my view on
this. He'd be way overpowered if his text was meant to be an advantage.
The FACT is that when I have Uriah in play it limits the way I am playing
(in a genercis game) because I have to be careful about my pool. Thus this
is _restricting_ the way I can make use of Uriah since I have to be sure I
can deal with my prey gettign control of him fairly easily. Now if there's
any place in the rules defining what a restriction actually is in Jyhad and
a good way to define it, then I'm all happy with the way you interpret
things. But if not, the arguments for his text not being a restriction just
doesn't impress me and seems to be taken out of thin air. How am I as a
player going to know what is a restriciton or not? Is Chas' disability a
restriction?
Roger Carhult
"Roger Carhult" <rogc...@student.luth.se> wrote in message
news:9fle5m$1rn$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
Ok, after reading the posts of the link you provided me things are a bit
more clear to me. But still not very much, for example when it comes to
Chas. You cand eifnately make use of his disadvantange..so is it a special
ability or not? I guess the thing that a mastercard cancels his action is
prohibition (sp?) so Seeds wouldn't affect it, am I right?
Roger
Pat Ricochet
>> It's semantics so that a ruling doesn't come down, ruining all his Uriah
>> Winter/Seeds of Corruption Trojan horse decks. It HAS to be a "special
>> ability." =)
(Take note)
> Actually, a ruling already has come down. LSJ answered this question years
> ago when I designed and published the first Uriah Winter "Trojan Horse of
> the Giovanni" deck.
>
> LSJ specifically said, and I quote:
> Uriah wouldn't defect, since that would be "using" the special ability.
>
> Refer to the following URL for the complete thread:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?ic=1&th=83285dd0d38337a2,6
>
> I know Uriah Winter better than anyone. Telling me I'm wrong about something
> that affects Uriah is like telling LSJ that he doesn't know anything about
> the rules of VTES. Both statements are just plain silly.
Deliberately silly, actually. Sorry I didn't use the standard ":)"
convention smiley to get that across. =P
(Besides, if I actually said you don't know about something that affects
Uriah, you snipped it. I don't see it.)
> ...and I still maintain that it's not a disadvantage at all.
Well, unless you just want him for his disciplines, and actually want to
keep him around. This is, for non-Noal players, the vast majority of the
time.
>
> Regards,
> Noal McDonald
> Uriah Winter's Best Friend
Best friend! You're one heck of a friend, sending him into dangerous
enemy territory over and over! =P
James Coupe
<rogc...@student.luth.se> writes
>I don't question your knowledge of Uriah, but I do not understand how the
>rulings are made and I'm not satisfied with the answer either.
Uriah is not restricted from doing anything. Therefore, he does not
have a restriction.
He has text which does something which may sometimes be good, or may
sometimes be bad. It does not restrict him, however.
Noal McDonald
> Ok, after reading the posts of the link you provided me things
> are a bit more clear to me. But still not very much, for example
> when it comes to Chas. You cand eifnately make use of his
> disadvantange..so is it a special ability or not? I guess the
> thing that a mastercard cancels his action is prohibition (sp?)
> so Seeds wouldn't affect it, am I right?
Actually, no. The problem is that people are confused on how Seeds
works. The common mis-interpretation is that Seeds doesn't affect
disadvantages. It does affect restrictions. There is a significant
difference between the two.
Seeds disables any text that would allow a vampire to do something
(or have something done to it) that would not otherwise happen. This
cuts both ways. It would strip Beast of his built-in rush (an ability)
and Nakova, Advocate of Golconda of the infliction of 4 damage to a
minion that burns her in combat (an effect). It also strips Uriah
of his effect, even though it is often percevied as being "negative".
Keep in mind that, at no point, does the text (or any rulings) on
Seeds distinguish between a advantageous or disadvantageous outcome
for the vampire it is placed on.
On the other hand, it does not grant abilities (or effects) that the
vampire is already restricted from. Assamites still may not diablerize
and Beast may still not acquire retainers & equipment and play action
cards. At this time, I can't think of how to make this work to the
advatage of the vampire Seeds is placed on, but Final Nights is on
the way and Blood Lines is probably in development, so this may
cut both ways at some point as well.
Hopefully I've cleared it up a bit for you.
So...does Seeds rob Chas of his effect? I would have to rule, based
on precedent, that it does. As always, LSJ is the final word on these
matters.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit
Noal McDonald
>> I know Uriah Winter better than anyone. Telling me I'm wrong about something
>> that affects Uriah is like telling LSJ that he doesn't know anything about
>> the rules of VTES. Both statements are just plain silly.
>
> Uriah, you snipped it. I don't see it.)
Sorry. That wasn't directed at you. My apologies for not making that clear.
>> ...and I still maintain that it's not a disadvantage at all.
>
> Well, unless you just want him for his disciplines, and actually want to
> keep him around. This is, for non-Noal players, the vast majority of the
> time.
Well, actually he makes a great kamikaze pilot. Send him in with an IG/Undead
Strength/Disarm/Amaranth combo. For 1 pool you usually can destroy most
vampires in a game.
I've honestly thought really hard about a bringing a weenie potence horde to
Origins.
>> Uriah Winter's Best Friend
>
> Best friend! You're one heck of a friend, sending him into dangerous
> enemy territory over and over! =P
*laughs* With friends like me...
Regards,
Noal
LSJ
>
> "Roger Carhult" wrote:
> > Ok, after reading the posts of the link you provided me things
> > are a bit more clear to me. But still not very much, for example
> > when it comes to Chas. You cand eifnately make use of his
> > disadvantange..so is it a special ability or not? I guess the
> > thing that a mastercard cancels his action is prohibition (sp?)
> > so Seeds wouldn't affect it, am I right?
>
> Actually, no. The problem is that people are confused on how Seeds
> works. The common mis-interpretation is that Seeds doesn't affect
> disadvantages. It does affect restrictions. There is a significant
> difference between the two.
Correct.
> Seeds disables any text that would allow a vampire to do something
> (or have something done to it) that would not otherwise happen. This
> cuts both ways. It would strip Beast of his built-in rush (an ability)
> and Nakova, Advocate of Golconda of the infliction of 4 damage to a
> minion that burns her in combat (an effect). It also strips Uriah
> of his effect, even though it is often percevied as being "negative".
> Keep in mind that, at no point, does the text (or any rulings) on
> Seeds distinguish between a advantageous or disadvantageous outcome
> for the vampire it is placed on.
Correct. It cannot, since (as we've seen) there's not always a clear
distintion for what is an "advantage". :-)
> On the other hand, it does not grant abilities (or effects) that the
> vampire is already restricted from. Assamites still may not diablerize
> and Beast may still not acquire retainers & equipment and play action
> cards.
Correct.
> So...does Seeds rob Chas of his effect? I would have to rule, based
> on precedent, that it does. As always, LSJ is the final word on these
> matters.
Correct. Chas's ability is rendered inert by Seeds, since it is not a
restriction (i.e., it adds an ability; it doesn't remove an ability).
Roger Carhult
--
"Noal McDonald" <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:bb705c59.01060...@posting.google.com...
Aha, thank you very much for your long and well-supported answer. Now I
finally fully understand how it's to be interpreted!
Roger