Trophies: wouldn't it be nice if...?
James Coupe
This is more by way of kicking the tyres than a definite suggestion, but
who knows?
Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
- luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
- intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
Rather than looking at making more Trophies, would it be possible to
make the Red List/Trophy system better as a whole by tweaking the rules
a little? That doesn't mean that other cards couldn't be printed in the
future, of course.
For example:
- when a Trophy is awarded to a vampire, untap the vampire.
Simple, one off, gives you a slightly better time of it if you don't
have an untap discipline. Probably not so great if the deck is
blocking, but even there you could save yourself a Wake or two. You
sort of get your Red Listing action back, and could use it to lunge
for a bleed or similar.
- a vampire with one or more Trophies has +1 strength against Red List
minions.
A bit more annoying to remember, but it might help a little.
- when a Trophy is awarded to vampire, that vampire gains one blood from
the blood gain. (Multiple trophies = multiple blood.)
Probably not generally as powerful as the untap, but might be helpful.
- when a vampire is awarded a Trophy, his controller's hand-size is
increased by two until the end of the turn.
Obvious possible cycling benefit.
Any thoughts?
I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
adam....@gmail.com
It changes card text a little... but perhaps if all Trophies were
trifles?
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> Any thoughts?
>
> I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
> could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
I think the problem lies in the difficulty/trouble to get a trophy,
not what happens when you actually manage.
The trophy cards that exist today are great (some of the at least),
but as you mentioned the hassle to get them is too much. Changing the
effects of the cards (or what happens when you get a trophy, I find
those two quite the same) isn't what's needed but rather an easier way
to make other minions redlisted or something like that.
Progeny, Retainers, Revered, Domain and probably some others as well
would all be great to use if it didn't require me to waste a bunch of
cardslots to first make a minion red listed and then whack + burn them
(AND survive the blood hunt).
I think it's kinda similar to what the anarchs used to be before the
Twilight Rebellion (especially the Convert) got printed. It's good
stuff, but not really worth all the trouble.
And the way I see it that won't change if I'm allowed to draw 2 cards
or untap after getting a trophy. It's the time prior to getting it
that's the issue, not what happens after.
illarion
> would all be great to use if it didn't require me to waste a bunch of
> cardslots to first make a minion red listed and then whack + burn them
> (AND survive the blood hunt).
How about simply:
"There is no bloodhunt called when a vampire diablerises a Red List
minion, if a Trophy is collected."
In other words, the Red List minion is considered such a threat that
the Powers That Be are willing to overlook the diablerie for the
greater good?
This makes it significantly easier to get away with burning the RL
minion in the first place - no non-diablerie burn method/Trophy:
Diablerie needed, and also slightly beefs up the reward (you can play
Trophy: X instead of Trophy: Diablerie to ensure survival).
John P.
> On Oct 17, 2:31 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > Any thoughts?
>
> > I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
> > could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
>
As you mentioned the difficulty seems to arise in the (paraphrasing)
a) getting red list
b) then burning red list
c) still having enough slots in your deck to try and win with
I think the solution is to make a or b easier.
The masterphase action of marking a red list is so seldom used.
(here).
Would it make more sense that removing that rule and adding something
like:
"As a master phase action a methuselah can spend 1 pool to make a
minion
red list until the end of that methuselah's turn" ?
Then trophy decks would just need to focus on rushing and killing.
(which
complement each other for some nice reason).
I admit I may have swung too far to the other side, perhaps
potentially
making trophies too powerful.
If not this, I do like the idea of making them trifles.
-John P.
Proud trophy experimenter
Winnipeg
Chris Berger
> On Oct 17, 7:24 am, sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Oct 17, 2:31 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Any thoughts?
>
> > > I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
> > > could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
>
> As you mentioned the difficulty seems to arise in the (paraphrasing)
> a) getting red list
> b) then burning red list
> c) still having enough slots in your deck to try and win with
>
necessarily need to be changed - it would just be nice to add some
cards that make it easier to get trophies. Perhaps:
- A vampire (preferrably small cap - maybe even with a title and no
disciplines?) that allows Trophies to be played as Trifles.
- A non-discipline combat card, played when a Red List minion is
leaving the ready region, allowing you to get a Trophy - either from
in play or maybe from your deck.
- A master card that burns a Red List minion controlled by another
methuselah and gives that methuselah pool equal to capacity/life, and
allows you to move a Trophy to one of your vampires.
- Something like "Guilt By Association" that requires a Red List
minion (maybe also playable by an anarch) that makes another minion
Red List as a (D) action.
- An action modifier/combat card, playable when diablerizing a Red
List which cancels the blood hunt (and possibly untaps the minion
too... sort of like a reverse Rebirth).
Or some permutation of those ideas...
tbz_...@hotmail.com
I like Guilt by Association - possibly make it an event.
Guilt by Association
Gehenna
Do not replace until a vampire is awarded a trophy. Requires at least
one ready Red List minion in play.
Any vampire can take a (d) action to make an ally or younger vampire
Red List. That minion may not attempt to block this action. Burn this
card if there are no ready Red List minions in play.
Something like that?
Jeff Kuta
My suggestions:
1) Make the Red List rush action after a mark free and still at 1s.
The 1 blood cost gets to be excessive IMO.
2) Make the Red List mark MPA work for any Red List minion in play,
not just a specific one.
3) Allow any vampire with a Trophy to take a (D) action to enter
combat with a Red List minion without any marking necessary. They've
already proven their adeptness at hunting down the Red List so let
them do it more.
The main difficulty I find with Trophies is that one trophy just isn't
enough to make it worthwhile. Since it costs an MPA to put them in
play and also costs an MPA to mark a Red List minion, you're looking
at potentially several turns before you get your first trophy. Sure,
you can search for them, but that's often not possible since the set-
up takes a while.
How about this:
Reprobate
1 pool
Unique Master. Trifle.
Place this card on a ready minion with three counters. While this card
is in play, this minion is Red List. Burn a counter during your
discard phase. Burn this card when it has no counters.
Jeff
Chris Berger
>
> 1) Make the Red List rush action after a mark free and still at 1s.
> The 1 blood cost gets to be excessive IMO.
> 2) Make the Red List mark MPA work for any Red List minion in play,
> not just a specific one.
> 3) Allow any vampire with a Trophy to take a (D) action to enter
> combat with a Red List minion without any marking necessary. They've
> already proven their adeptness at hunting down the Red List so let
> them do it more.
>
typically have that many extra points to make up for being Red List,
and having a plain old rush deck being able to mess your Mata Hari or
Alexis Sorokin *that* easily doesn't seem palatable to me. I think
that the way the current Red List rush action works is good enough for
your regular-old non-Trophy hunting rush decks, and the idea is to
make Trophy Hunting better.
Another card idea: A political action that moves a Trophy in play to a
non-anarch, non-redlist vampire you control, only playable if there is
at least one Red List minion in play, Red List minions gain 2 extra
votes in the referendum. Perhaps leave the card in play and only one
can be in play at a time, burnable as a referendum, and if it is
burned, burn the trophy as well. The idea being that you call a
referendum to convince everyone that you're doing the most to hunt
down and stop Red List minions, and the 2 votes that the Red List
minions get represents them causing trouble and making you look
bad... ;)
sutekh_23
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
> could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
Here's my 2c on the subject of trophies
As others have noted, the largest problem I see with trophies the way
they stand now is the risk Vs reward aspect. By risk I'm not only
referring just to the combat side of things, but the potential for
hand jam, master flow and the sheer deckspace in can involve to make
the concept work, thereby limiting your decks ability to do it's main
job of ousting (hopefully) 2 or more prey.
The trophies that currently exist are, IMHO, pretty good. Some more
than others, but that is pretty much to be expected in any kind of
CCG.
So, How to make them better....?
Making all Trophies trifles is an interesting idea, but not in keeping
(I think) with the concept. Trophies are supposed to represent boons
from the Powers That Be for exterminating a menace to vampiric
society, and I'd hardly rate any kind of boon from them to be a
trifle. Sure I could be juggling semantics over playability here, but
thats just my personal feeling about them.
Giving a strength bonus to a vampire with multiple trophies. This
could work, but I would prefer to word along the lines of "All
vampires with two or more trophies do +1 damage on all their strikes
against red list minions", That way if your preferred method of
killing is ranged strikes, you still gain a benefit from the effect,
rather than be forced to go toe to toe with the offending red listed
minion.
Gaining blood from trophies (multiple gain for multiple trophies).
This one seems pretty fine to me. It's in line with capacity growth
from extra disciplines and mirrors some already existing vampires and
effects. The downside is, if you can diablarise a vampire with blood
still on it, you sort of get this effect by default. You could
possibly add a clause that all your ready vampires gain a blood, but
that is possibly overpowered and not in keeping with the overall theme
of trophies anyway.
Increased hand size. Rather than a reward for burning a red list
minion, I would suggest that if you use the MPA to target a red listed
vampire, you gain the increased hand size. The extra options that a
larger hand afford will generally not help you after you hunt down
your prey, but rather in destroying it.
Finally, I'll suggest a possible "fix" that has not come up as of yet,
and I owe the idea to the imbued.
Rule: If a red listed minion comes into play or is created, each
methusalah can search their library, ashheap or hand for an amount of
trophies equal to the amount of red listed minions controlled by the
opposing methusalah.
This idea follows the concept of "offered reward" and punishes a
methusalah for controlling multiple (or created multiple) red listed
minions. This way, you get more "bang" for making red listed minions,
allows you to still play trophy cards as masters, does not require
card re-working and IMHO, fits the whole concept of the red list.
There it is, take it or leave it :)
Cheers
Sutekh_23
Daneel
wrote:
> Reprobate
> 1 pool
> Unique Master. Trifle.
> Place this card on a ready minion with three counters. While this card
> is in play, this minion is Red List. Burn a counter during your
> discard phase. Burn this card when it has no counters.
I think this is a great idea! You can immediately mark the minion with
your regular MPA or put a Trophy in play if you are packing Big Game
or similar tech. This would fix efficiency.
There is another issue, and that is the diablerie - it might warrant
another moving part in the deck. Something like:
No Remorse
Action Modifier / Combat
Only usable when this minion burns a Red List minion. If there was a
diablerie, there is no blood hunt. No card or effect can burn, damage
or force this minion to burn blood or life as a result of this action
or for burning the Red List minion. This card cannot be cancelled.
This minion gains up to 2 blood or life (up to the maximum) or you
gain 1 pool. Only one No Remorse can be played for burning each Red
List minion.
--
Regards,
Daneel
sul...@aol.com
> This is more by way of kicking the tyres than a definite suggestion, but
> who knows?
>
> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
>
> - luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
> - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
>
> Rather than looking at making more Trophies, would it be possible to
>
> could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
First, addressing the idea of benefits for after the fact trophying up
(TU), that has the problem that you end up with either random
awesomeness or random uselessness, something I find inherently bad in
games. Improving TU in the game would be better balancewise with more
card efficient ways of getting to the first one.
Second, I don't see the need and I don't have the desire for TU being
made better. Even putting aside that some people think the Miller T:
Progeny deck is a strong combo deck which in all likelihood only be
made better by any of the suggestions and that maybe someone thinks
Trophy decks are currently viable if you actually bother to try to
build and play them, what's involved to achieve TU is destabilizing.
Same could be said of any combat strategy and especially any rush
strategy, so it's questionable how much jacking the power level of
Trophy decks is really going to change the environment, but still, I'm
inclined to let annoying strategies be weak.
Third, there's a really, really long post that could be made on
strength in CCGs. While I'm normally for as much balance as possible,
I'm perfectly fine with annoying strategies rarely seeing play and
there are those who would argue that it's fine if some things are
weaker than others. A propos, there's a Magic article today from one
of their developers where the whole point of the article is that
different cards appeal to different people. Not everyone is a Spike
(for those who don't follow Magic nomenclature, this is the
psychographic profile for CCGers who care about what wins). The
Johnnies (profile for CCGers who care more about being creative in
their decks) out there look at trophies as a means to build decks no
one else does.
Fourth, I could start a list on how many other things I'd much rather
see addressed than a mechanic I find clunky and joyless. I'm somewhat
inclined to start a thread somewhere on what I'd like to see for
Laibon support, for instance. Or, there's always trotting out a rant
about Dominate's brokenness. Or, whatever. Now, consistency suggests
that since not everything appeals to everybody and making trophies
better appeals to somebody not me, then I shouldn't question the
interest in addressing the topic, so carry on. I can opt to start
threads on stuff I care about, assuming I care about anything anymore.
James Coupe
s.com>, sg3kmb6...@gmail.com writes:
>The trophy cards that exist today are great (some of the at least),
>but as you mentioned the hassle to get them is too much. Changing the
>effects of the cards (or what happens when you get a trophy, I find
>those two quite the same) isn't what's needed but rather an easier way
>to make other minions redlisted or something like that.
My vague hope was that some of the fringe benefits would benefit a deck
such that it could conserve a few card slots. e.g. if I get a few blood
from a Trophy, can I trade a copy of Taste of Vitae for a copy of Red
List? An untap drops a couple of copies of Forced March? That sort of
thing.
However, your thoughts prompted a separate idea for a new Trophy which
makes up for the 'wasted' card slots.
Trophy: Reimbursement
Master. Trophy.
When this trophy is awarded, remove it from the game. This vampire's
controller chooses up to 5 cards from his or her ash heap, and
shuffles them back into her library.
The number 5 is, obviously, up for grabs, but I was thinking that that's
a rush action, a maneuver, a strike, and possibly damage prevention or
Anathema or something.
James Coupe
s.com>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>I agree with this. However, I don't think that the *rules*
>necessarily need to be changed - it would just be nice to add some
>cards that make it easier to get trophies.
I was looking at the rules/system, because changing them doesn't involve
errata-ing existing cards, and could be relatively easily incorporated.
I'm slightly wary of new-card-based fixes, as there's the tendency for
the chain to get longer. Okay, first I need a Red Listing action (of
some sort), and I need to have Scribbling On Arika's Agenda Paper in
play, and I need some combat in hand, and preferably a Trophy or two
already in play (so I can use those and the one free from my deck)...
It can all just get a little too much set-up, and a little too little
pay-off. Against weenie bleed, for example, I might well be dead before
I can set anything up.
That said...
>- A vampire (preferrably small cap - maybe even with a title and no
>disciplines?) that allows Trophies to be played as Trifles.
I have no particular objection to vampires who benefit from Trophies.
In Ben's last revision of the Create A Clan rules, I think I suggested a
benefit like "This vampire gets 1 vote for each Trophy he has."
What I'd be wary of is a special that basically becomes "This vampire is
hands-down the best way to play a Trophy deck", because it becomes so
confining. Although, to a point, this is better than having so few
viable Trophy decks.
>- A non-discipline combat card, played when a Red List minion is
>leaving the ready region, allowing you to get a Trophy - either from
>in play or maybe from your deck.
I'm slightly wary of more dead cards in a Red List deck, as having to
have that in hand as well might get annoying.
>- A master card that burns a Red List minion controlled by another
>methuselah and gives that methuselah pool equal to capacity/life, and
>allows you to move a Trophy to one of your vampires.
This one, I'm scared of. Even with the pool, I'm scared of the
possibility of creating a PTO-like card that can't easily be cancelled.
I get Red List through with Forgotten Labyrinth, boom, vampire dead. No
combat required. A bit gruesome.
>- Something like "Guilt By Association" that requires a Red List
>minion (maybe also playable by an anarch) that makes another minion
>Red List as a (D) action.
This, I really like as a concept.
>- An action modifier/combat card, playable when diablerizing a Red
>List which cancels the blood hunt (and possibly untaps the minion
>too... sort of like a reverse Rebirth).
To a point, this is what Trophy: Diablerie is.
Rehlow
>
> Another card idea: A political action that moves a Trophy in play to a
> non-anarch, non-redlist vampire you control, only playable if there is
> at least one Red List minion in play, Red List minions gain 2 extra
> votes in the referendum. Perhaps leave the card in play and only one
> can be in play at a time, burnable as a referendum, and if it is
> burned, burn the trophy as well. The idea being that you call a
> referendum to convince everyone that you're doing the most to hunt
> down and stop Red List minions, and the 2 votes that the Red List
> minions get represents them causing trouble and making you look
> bad... ;)
I was thinking about a vote that assigned trophies could help. I think
your vote is pretty conservative. My thoughts were something along the
lines of
If this vote passes, all Methuselahs that control any red list minions
burn 1 pool. Choose 1 unassigned trophy and a non-red list vampire. If
this vote passes, that vampire gains the trophy.
That way you can do some small pool damage to your prey and get a
trophy that might help you in burning red list minions. Your deck
probably already has some votes, so its not too hard to pass. You
might have to make a deal where you give someone else a trophy first
to get your vote to pass and then they help you pass the vote the next
time you call it.
The event idea is interesting too. I'd like to see it something like
Guilt by Association
Gehenna
Do not replace until a vampire is awarded a trophy. Requires at least
one ready Red List minion in play.
During your untap phase, if you control any Red List minions, choose a
non-Red List minion you control. That minion is now Red List. Burn
this
card if there are no ready Red List minions in play.
Later,
~Rehlow
Chris Berger
> In message <c6cb9f2b-5f29-4ebe-aa85-054c3c698...@m74g2000hsh.googlegroup
> s.com>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>
>
> >- A master card that burns a Red List minion controlled by another
> >methuselah and gives that methuselah pool equal to capacity/life, and
> >allows you to move a Trophy to one of your vampires.
>
> This one, I'm scared of. Even with the pool, I'm scared of the
> possibility of creating a PTO-like card that can't easily be cancelled.
> I get Red List through with Forgotten Labyrinth, boom, vampire dead. No
> combat required. A bit gruesome.
>
Well, I was also thinking (and forgot to include) that perhaps it
should be cancellable like Golconda, by paying 3 pool. So, in
comparison with Golconda, it requires being played on Red List (but of
any size) and can't be your own vampire, but in return lets you get a
trophy. Seems balanced, though obviously if something similar were
printed, it would go through playtesting first. It actually might be
a little weak since most times it's simply 3 pool damage with no
trophy and none of the pool-gain benefits of Golconda.
You are probably right that it would be a bit too gruesome if it were
not cancellable and had no other drawback.
Chris Berger
>
> Guilt by Association
>
> Gehenna
>
> Do not replace until a vampire is awarded a trophy. Requires at least
> one ready Red List minion in play.
> During your untap phase, if you control any Red List minions, choose a
> non-Red List minion you control. That minion is now Red List. Burn
> this
> card if there are no ready Red List minions in play.
>
This would be so awesome for my Enkidu/Rebirth deck... suddenly it
could have more than 3 (4 if you count Anarch Convert) vampires in
it. Could even throw in a few Trophies just gits and shiggles, though
it would be very hard to ensure that another methuselah ever got a Red
Lister, what with no titles and all.
In a way, I think this is the most interesting suggestion yet - opens
up a lot of possibilities, including pure rush decks that replace the
Haven Uncovereds and Rush cards with like 4 or 5 Red Lists, this
event, and stock up on more Tastes than usual to pay for the action.
tigernat1
How about just changing the Marking of Red List to be DURING the
master phase....not a master phase action, leaving everything else the
same. This way it clears up the master jam since Marking is not using
up the master slot.
Vegas gNat
Chris Berger
>
> How about just changing the Marking of Red List to be DURING the
> master phase....not a master phase action, leaving everything else the
> same. This way it clears up the master jam since Marking is not using
> up the master slot.
>
people who forget or who don't know the rule that well. Your
suggestion is similar to "any vampire may burn a blood to enter combat
with a red list minion as a +1 stealth action." And that just seems
like it hurts the already-printed Red List vampires a little too
much. But I prefer that over "remember to say that you might rush,
sometime during your master phase - it doesn't cost anything, but if
you forget, you can't do it."
suolir...@gmail.com
Red Listers and actions to make a minion Red List, maybe with some
other minor effect as well. Cramming enough stealth to push the 2-3
required actions through and actually burning minions with the same
deck is just terrible.
James Coupe
>people who forget or who don't know the rule that well.
As an alternative, you could leave the mark system as is (roughly), but
make the marking more useful.
When awarding Trophies, if the minion had been marked this turn, you
may retrieve an additional Trophy from your library, ash-heap or hand.
mat...@gmail.com
As to marking as a mpa you could include a optional pool cost to gain
a second mpa (w/ a trifle like limit)
Matt
"Anybody want a peanut!" Fezzik
Darby Keeney
> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
> - luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
> - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
I don't intend to be negative, so please read to conclusion
(confusion??) before reacting....... I'll also try to take the time
to be concise, though that may mean some of my comments are more
cryptic than intended. Please feel free to open a dialogue if clarity
is needed.
To my thinking, the problem does not reside specifically in "the
Trophy" or in the associated rewards. The problem is the Red List
mechanic itself. It's just plain cumbersome. Adding perks to
Trophies does not address that central issue.
Following is my thinking that (I hope) supports that claim.
DECK ARCHETYPE:
There are gimmick archtypes in which Trophies can fit (Caiaphas Smith
+ Red List + 2x Shadow Twin) but I believe the Red List mechanic
should lend itself to a combat archetype. We might be choosing "soft
targets" to activate Trophies, but we'll likely have to fight some of
our predator's "hard targets" just to survive (assumption: combat
swims upstream). Therefore the deck should have more than just that
"soft target" takedown as proactive defense - it's a real combat deck
with Red Listing as an "enter combat" mechanism.
ACTION COST:
Red Listing creates a cardless global rush option. That's good, but
it costs a successful gateway action. In effect, we require 2 minion
actions to enter combat.
Since combat decks never seem to have enough minion actions, this
quickly develops into a problem.
TIME AND MPA COST:
Now add a 1 turn deferral on you ability to enter combat. We made
someone Red List, but can't mark them until we have an MPA - that
means next turn.
Wait, now we're up to 2 minion actions, 1 MPA and a full table-turn of
time to create a combat. That is a tremendously steep price to pay,
considering the broad availability of "I'll just go get in combat NOW"
actions that our combat deck could be using.
Oh, maybe we do have rush cards and can go Big Game hunting
immediately. Now we're diluting our combat deck with all the Red List/
Trophy tech for deferred gain when we have other immediate-gain
options for those MPAs and could still be more action-efficient. So,
the deck suffers.
THE MULTI-RUSH BENEFIT
After all that set-up, we can send multiple minions after our
designated target. Seems good, but if you're after Trophies, it is an
illusion.
When our goal to to accumulate a trophy, we pick a "soft target" and
one combat ought to be enough - so the benefit is moot.
If our goal is to destroy a resilient target (or one covered by 1+
resilient blockers), this is an asset. But an extra action, an MPA
and a full turn may mean the benefit comes too late, unless someone
crosstable uses the Red List rush to eliminate your problem.
THE PRICE OF TROPHY HUNTING.
Assume we got in combat with Trophies and Red List in play (1+ MPAs
for Trophies, 1 MPA for marking an action to Red List and an action to
be in combat). We are even going to send the opposing vampire to
torpor. Yeah us!
But now, we either have to burn the vampire as part of the combat or
diablerize with another minion. The first option smacks of heavy
aggravated damage (limited to a small subset of combat designs) or
Amaranth (which requires us to have it in-hand, convoluting the deck
design). The second option requires a 3rd minion action. Can those
Trophies really be worth all that?
Failure to follow up with that diablerie....well, we are likely right
back to needing to make another Red List minion - some savvy player
will probably diablerize for us between our turns. All that set-up,
gone. .
THE HIDDEN PRICE(S) OF TROPHIES
If we're not burning outright with heavy agg damage, we might be
obliged to carry multiple copies of Trophy: Diablerie just to protect
our minions from burning in the bloodhunts we trigger. Still more
cardslots killed as an intrinsic part of the mechanism.
Even worse, most of the tech on which combat-focused decks rely to
actually oust their prey require vampires in torpor. Whoops, we just
burned that one to get our trophies and actually lost an asset!!!
Write off Fame pings, Dragonbound and Perpetual Care, plus any other
added bonus like Carver's blood gain. I guess on the positive side,
Tension in the Ranks pinged twice.
SUMMARY
Potentially increased overhead in card slots.
MPAs devoted to deferred benefit through Trophies
MPAs devoted to marking (or cardslots for Big Game).
Deferred rush intrinsic to using Red List.
Increased overhead in minion actions for single combats.
Predisposed to attack soft (less meaningful) targets.
Unquantifiable risk of interference from other players
Most of the Trophies are good, but not focused on ability to oust your
prey after acquisition (Progeny and Revered are exceptions). So, I
can't imagine them being worth such increased risk and overhead.
Supplementing Trophies with rules-based perks might help after
acquisition, but it doesn't address all of the inefficiencies in
getting the initial payload.
> I'm not hung up on any of the ideas, I'm mostly just wondering how we
> could make the Trophy system better as a whole.
If the issues I described are accurate, the inefficiency resides in
mechanism to invoke the Red List system, rather than the Trophy
rewards. Here are my suggestions, certainly open to having holes
shot in them left and right.
First, do away with all of the "Marking" mechanics. That 1 blood each
minion pays for the rush is enough, and having to wait a turn for a
cardless rush after making someone Red List is (literally) a killer.
Second, introduce a Master Red List card. It seems straightforward to
introduce a Master card that tags a minion with "Red List" and which
can be removed by the affected minion as an action or political
action. Functionally, it is not much different from Haven Uncovered,
so it feels immediately balanced. It eliminates some of the
inefficiency in minion use, but collides with the MPA space taken by
Trophies themselves. Seems like a good tradeoff.
The best part of each of those suggestions - they don't add any rules,
only subtract them. Unfortunately, we would have to wait for the
"Haven Uncovered" analog.
I did like your proposal of untapping in association with Red List,
but I wonder if the benefit is too far deferred. Perhaps untapping
when you successfully make a minion Red List is another viable option
(analogous to "Go Anarch"). That way, your minion could set up the
minion side of the Trophy teceh and still enter combat that turn.
At any rate, thanks for (maybe) staying awake as I worked though this
while writing.
Kind Regards,
Darby
XZealot
> If we're not burning outright with heavy agg damage, we might be
> obliged to carry multiple copies of Trophy: Diablerie just to protect
> our minions from burning in the bloodhunts we trigger.
You never need more than one Trophy Diablerie in any Trophy Deck.
...Ever.
It is always availible if you need it.
I will be happy to answer any questions you might have about this.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
ira...@gmail.com
> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
>
> - luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
> - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
Maybe it was a dream I had, or maybe it was during some storyline
description, but wasn't there a new card that made minions redlist
besides Red List and Trumped Up Charges?
I remember thinking, "That card is perfectly balanced and a great,
interesting addition to the Trophy/Red List mechanic." I just can't
remember what the card was. :)
Ira
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> > If we're not burning outright with heavy agg damage, we might be
> > obliged to carry multiple copies of Trophy: Diablerie just to protect
> > our minions from burning in the bloodhunts we trigger.
>
> You never need more than one Trophy Diablerie in any Trophy Deck.
>
> ...Ever.
>
> It is always availible if you need it.
>
> I will be happy to answer any questions you might have about this.
Vamp A burns a redlist minion and gains Trophy: Diablerie.
Vamp A diablerizes a nonredlist minion and Trophy: Diablerie is
burned.
Vamp A diablerizes a nonredlist minion and...
A very cornercase situation, but given that you can need Trophy:
Diablerie at all I'd say you can need more than one as well. Unless I
missed anything.
Salem
> Finally, I'll suggest a possible "fix" that has not come up as of yet,
> and I owe the idea to the imbued.
> Rule: If a red listed minion comes into play or is created, each
> methusalah can search their library, ashheap or hand for an amount of
> trophies equal to the amount of red listed minions controlled by the
> opposing methusalah.
I like this one. Of course 'the opposing methuselah' makes no sense
during the influence phase, so i'd rather it just be 'when a red list
minion enters play, or a minion is made red list, all Methuselahs may
search their library, ash heap or hand for a Trophy and put it in play'.
Just one would be fine.
Although the most painful thing I have found from playing Trophy decks
is that you can't mark the minion the same turn you make them red list,
you have to wait for a master phase.
So perhaps another idea is:
When a minion is made red list, it is considered 'marked' for the
remainder of the turn.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
"In *my* Assamite deck, this would pwn you in teh FAEC, so shut up."
"Thats only cos u've never sene mi Gionavvi PUNCHnMUCNH u asshat."
- James Coupe
Salem
> Even worse, most of the tech on which combat-focused decks rely to
> actually oust their prey require vampires in torpor. Whoops, we just
> burned that one to get our trophies and actually lost an asset!!!
> Write off Fame pings, Dragonbound and Perpetual Care, plus any other
> added bonus like Carver's blood gain. I guess on the positive side,
> Tension in the Ranks pinged twice.
Tension only works on ready minions. Diablerising a vampire in torpor
won't trigger Tension a second time.
Salem
you burn it after the first diablerie of a redlist minion to survive
_that_ bloodhunt.
then you don't diablerise non-redlist minions, because that doesn't get
you trophies.
it's only in there so you survive when you're getting trophies.
once it's burned after the first diablerie, it's in your asheap to be
retrieved next time you diablerise a redlist minion.
Salem
spoilers:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/768c456c3d63d553
***** spoiler space *****
****
Flames of Insurrection
Unique Master. Requires a ready anarch
When a minion opposing an anarch in combat leaves the ready region,
the controller of that anarch may move a counter from the bank to a
vampire in his or her uncontrolled region. Any vampire may call a
referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
Public Enemy
+1 stealth action. Requires a non-Red List, non-anarch vampire.
D Choose a non-titled, non-Red List minion who either has succesfully
bled for 3 or more pool since your last turn or is infernal or anarch.
The chosen minion becomes Red List.
James Coupe
s.com>, Darby Keeney <darby....@gmail.com> writes:
>I don't intend to be negative, so please read to conclusion
>(confusion??) before reacting....... I'll also try to take the time
>to be concise, though that may mean some of my comments are more
>cryptic than intended. Please feel free to open a dialogue if clarity
>is needed.
>
>To my thinking, the problem does not reside specifically in "the
>Trophy" or in the associated rewards. The problem is the Red List
>mechanic itself. It's just plain cumbersome. Adding perks to
>Trophies does not address that central issue.
Oh, gosh, no, I don't see taking an alternative approach as negative at
all. My thinking was mostly:
- changing the rules is surprisingly easy
- all the things for making someone Red List are cards, and changing
those is somewhat harder
- if we can help out somewhere along the line, perhaps the Red List deck
can 'waste' a few card slots on making the actions pass because it
will get some compensatory benefit for it.
I wouldn't object to - for example - new, better, easier ways of making
someone Red List. It's just that involves printing new cards, and I was
wondering if we could boost the old existing cards.
I also didn't want to post a huge initial post that would deter people
from having their own thoughts and replying. :-)
I'll digest your post and see if I have any sensible thoughts later.
Blooded Sand
sounds good. To me one of the main problems with trophies has been
getting them in play quickly enough. Would it be completely outrageous
to add a rule that states "During your untap, for each red list minion
in play, you may put a Trophy card in play from your ash heap or
library."
I deliberately left out the option of from your hand, as that still
forces the play of trophies, or their discard.
As to marking, either take away the need for it to be an MPA or make
the rush free, either or.
Jeff Kuta
> ira...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Oct 17, 5:31 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> >> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> >> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
>
> >> - luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
> >> - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
>
> > Maybe it was a dream I had, or maybe it was during some storyline
> > description, but wasn't there a new card that made minions redlist
> > besides Red List and Trumped Up Charges?
>
> > I remember thinking, "That card is perfectly balanced and a great,
> > interesting addition to the Trophy/Red List mechanic." I just can't
> > remember what the card was. :)
>
> spoilers:
>
>
> ***** spoiler space *****
>
> ****
>
> Flames of Insurrection
>
> Unique Master. Requires a ready anarch
>
> When a minion opposing an anarch in combat leaves the ready region,
> the controller of that anarch may move a counter from the bank to a
> vampire in his or her uncontrolled region. Any vampire may call a
> referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action.
>
> Public Enemy
>
> +1 stealth action. Requires a non-Red List, non-anarch vampire.
>
> D Choose a non-titled, non-Red List minion who either has succesfully
> bled for 3 or more pool since your last turn or is infernal or anarch.
> The chosen minion becomes Red List.
>
> --
> salem
> (replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
> "In *my* Assamite deck, this would pwn you in teh FAEC, so shut up."
> "Thats only cos u've never sene mi Gionavvi PUNCHnMUCNH u asshat."
> - James Coupe
Public Enemy is nice and relatively balanced. Not sure if there are
enough special clauses to make it non corner case.
Heck, how about this as a new rule for any situation.
New Rule Regarding Actions:
Any minion who meets the requirements of an action card, may instead
take that action as a 1 stealth undirected action to gain 1 pool.
Every action is then useful. It's better than a hunt because you gain
pool, but it's slightly tempered because any requirements must be met.
I know I hate drawing into a Parity Shift or something useless if I
don't have a Prince in play. Or perhaps right now I've torpored all my
prey's minions and that Bum's Rush I just drew into isn't so
important. Or maybe I desperately need the pool for whatever reason.
Maybe someone else has my unique equipment and I don't want to
contest. Maybe Reins of Power was already played once per game.
Jeff
Jeff Kuta
I think that getting a trophy into play every turn would be a bit
excessive.
I can totally dig a rule like:
"Each time a Red List minion enters play or each time a minion becomes
Red List, you may search your Library, Hand or Ash Heap for a Trophy
and put it into play."
Maybe even slightly limit it so that every time it happens on someone
else's turn. Make it cost 1 pool to do the searching.
How about this:
Token
Master. Trifle.
Search your library for a Trophy and put it into play.
Limited in scope, but great for a Trophy deck.
Jeff
Darby Keeney
> > If we're not burning outright with heavy agg damage, we might be
> > obliged to carry multiple copies of Trophy: Diablerie just to protect
> > our minions from burning in the bloodhunts we trigger.
>
> You never need more than one Trophy Diablerie in any Trophy Deck.
Oh yeah, forgot you could retrieve one from the ash heap when you burn
that redlister. Thanks for pointing that out.
Baaliprimogen
well what about this:
Minor Criminal
Master Trifle
Put this card on a non-titled minion. That minion is considered red
listed. Burn this card during your discard phase.
XZealot
How do you gain trophies from burning non-Red Listed minions?
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> How do you gain trophies from burning non-Red Listed minions?
You don't. I'd say it's a possible situation though, since a trophy
decks thing would be (at least a rather big part of it) to whack
people and sometimes they just don't stay down unless you eat them.
Depends on how the deck looks and what it's supposed to do though, but
I can see versions that could use more than 1 copy of Diablerize...
Kushiel
> It actually might be
> a little weak since most times it's simply 3 pool damage with no
> trophy and none of the pool-gain benefits of Golconda.
Weak? I make one of your guys Red List, and you certainly don't have
any of the tech in your deck to make a guy un-Red List, so he's stuck
as a Red Lister for the rest of the game. After this, during each of
my master phases, you either lose three pool or Golconda your vampire.
That doesn't sound anything like "weak" to me. :)
John Eno
XZealot
> On Oct 18, 9:47 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > How do you gain trophies from burning non-Red Listed minions?
>
> You don't. I'd say it's a possible situation though, since a trophy
> decks thing would be (at least a rather big part of it) to whack
> people and sometimes they just don't stay down unless you eat them.
The point of the whole discussion is that you are having to do more
massive amounts of aggrivated damage or commit Diablerie to burn a red
list minion. Hence the point of Trophy: Diablerie being in the deck.
Also, Pulled Fangs does wonders for keeping vampires in torpor.
>sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Depends on how the deck looks and what it's supposed to do though, but
> I can see versions that could use more than 1 copy of Diablerize...
I would like to see those versions because it seems to me that you
have never actually read Trophy: Diablerie nor do you understand the
rules surrounding them because there is no reason WHY you would put
more than one Trophy: Diablerie in a deck. Sure you could put two,
but the second one is a dead card. You are better off in almost every
case by just putting in a different Trophy.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
I just gave you a situation where another copy could've been used,
which was all I wanted. No real point in discussing it further than
that.
It's not about misunderstanding the rules, I know that as long as you
just eat redlisted minions you'll be safe (assuming it's a 1 vamp star
deck). In some games you might be forced to eat a couple of
nonredlisted vamps, or you might want 2+ vampires with trophies (1
vamp star decks tend to get owned by Pentex Subversion and stuff like
that fairly easy).
And about the version I mainly meant version that doesn't burn
vampires in combat but relies on eating them to get rid of them (for
trophies and other reasons).
Most times it probably would be a dead card, as you say though.
Chris Berger
course, I meant that pool loss to be 2, not 3, to match
identically... it's been a while since I've played Golconda in a deck
other than for pool gain), just different requirements. One requires
them to have a big vamp, one requires you to take an action to make
them Red List. The thing about Golconda is that it *also* lets you
bloat. So, umm... slightly weak compared to Golconda, which is a
pretty strong card.
I dunno, just an idea... I think there needs to be more ways of
actually using Trophies than just burning an opposing minion in
combat. If you're able to burn minions in combat, you're pretty much
already doing well. At that point, what you need is +bleed for an
oust, not bigger hand size, or a way of getting retainers easier...
It's just a case of, if your deck needs Trophies to do what what it
does, it's not going to be able to do it, and it won't get Trophies.
If your deck can do what it does, most of the time, it doesn't need
Trophies. Now there are certainly decks which make effective use of
Trophies (are they good? maybe, maybe not, but that's a different
question), but if you could get a Trophy without burning a minion,
that'd be nice, assuming it was well balanced.
And even though that particular card idea does burn a minion, it also
bloats the target, so it's not all bad for them, when usual Trophy
usage is extremely swingy for the target ("I lost a minion, *and* you
get a Trophy? How about I just quit now?")... Something else like a
vote to gain a Trophy (once per game might be a good idea for that),
getting a trophy for sending someone to torpor... it it's properly
balanced so that there's still incentive to burn a red list minion,
that might be nice.
Chris Berger
>
> deck). In some games you might be forced to eat a couple of
> nonredlisted vamps, or you might want 2+ vampires with trophies (1
> vamp star decks tend to get owned by Pentex Subversion and stuff like
> that fairly easy).
>
unlikely that Trophy: Diablerie is going to be much help. Most
(probably 95%?) uses see T:D being gotten and burned in the same
action. If you burn a Red List minion through some other means than
Diablerie, and you're concerned about needing it with your other
minion, then you don't get T:D... you leave it where it is and search
for a different trophy. Whichever minion diablerizes a Red Lister
gets the T:D when it's needed. The only time you'd want a vamp
sitting around with T:D on it is if you can a) burn a Red List minion
without diablerie, and b) expect to diablerize a non-Red Lister with
that same vamp... preferably soon.
XZealot
>
> > On Oct 18, 5:50 pm, sg3kmb613sdf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Depends on how the deck looks and what it's supposed to do though, but
> > > I can see versions that could use more than 1 copy of Diablerize...
>
> > I would like to see those versions because it seems to me that you
> > have never actually read Trophy: Diablerie nor do you understand the
> > rules surrounding them because there is no reason WHY you would put
> > more than one Trophy: Diablerie in a deck. Sure you could put two,
> > but the second one is a dead card. You are better off in almost every
> > case by just putting in a different Trophy.
>
> I just gave you a situation where another copy could've been used,
> which was all I wanted. No real point in discussing it further than
> that.
> It's not about misunderstanding the rules, I know that as long as you
> just eat redlisted minions you'll be safe (assuming it's a 1 vamp star
> deck). In some games you might be forced to eat a couple of
> nonredlisted vamps, or you might want 2+ vampires with trophies (1
> vamp star decks tend to get owned by Pentex Subversion and stuff like
> that fairly easy).
Which means that you have burned TWO Red Listed minions, which in and
of itself is very hard to do just once.
I would like to see the decklist.
> And about the version I mainly meant version that doesn't burn
> vampires in combat but relies on eating them to get rid of them (for
> trophies and other reasons).
> Most times it probably would be a dead card, as you say though.
Again, I would certainly like to see the decklist. I have a bunch of
Ritual of the Bitter Rose that are itching to get used.
Kushiel
> Okay, not weak. But you could do the same thing with Golconda (of
> course,
Not true. There is no way to give your prey's vampires increased
capacity. There are several ways to make them Red List.
> If you're able to burn minions in combat, you're pretty much
> already doing well. At that point, what you need is +bleed for an
> oust
Like...Trophy: Revered? :)
John Eno
witness1
> On Oct 20, 9:32 am, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > Okay, not weak. But you could do the same thing with Golconda (of
> > course,
>
> Not true. There is no way to give your prey's vampires increased
> capacity. There are several ways to make them Red List.
Besides skill cards?
-witness1
Chris Berger
> On Oct 20, 9:32 am, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>
> > Okay, not weak. But you could do the same thing with Golconda (of
> > course,
>
> Not true. There is no way to give your prey's vampires increased
> capacity. There are several ways to make them Red List.
>
> > If you're able to burn minions in combat, you're pretty much
> > already doing well. At that point, what you need is +bleed for an
> > oust
>
> Like...Trophy: Revered? :)
>
Sure, that's *one* of the many trophies.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> Which means that you have burned TWO Red Listed minions, which in and
> of itself is very hard to do just once.
>
> I would like to see the decklist.
I'm talking about a theoretical Trophy deck. Any trophy deck capable
of burning 1 redlist minion (through diablerie) should be capable of
diablerizing a nonredlist minion and I'm just saying that a situation
may arise where you would want/need to do so. I'm not saying that it
happens every single game or anything, just that it's possible. If you
don't agree then I don't know if I can convince you. Whatever...
This old one of yours would be enough as far as I can tell:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_frm/thread/578867351255375a/16d9e1b386bb649f?lnk=st&q=trophy#16d9e1b386bb649f
Kushiel
> Besides skill cards?
Ha! Good point.
John Eno
Kushiel
> And you snipped the part where I mentioned that.
To emphasize that it makes your theoretical card not all that
comparable to Golconda, yeah.
> > Like...Trophy: Revered? :)
>
> Sure, that's *one* of the many trophies.
I'm not understanding you here. What you're asking for seems to
already be in the game, in the form of Trophy: Revered. What'd I miss?
John Eno
Chris Berger
point, and kind of derailed the post. Then you focused on that and,
presumably, ignored the rest of the post. The point I was trying to
make was, yeah, if you're already bludgeoning your opponent's vampires
to the point that you can even get a Trophy, then there is 1 Trophy
that's really likely to help you. The other Trophies may be nice, and
may well help you continue to bludgeon other vampires (Domain and
Library seem most illustrative in this regard), but for the most part
if you really *need* to get those Trophies, to the point that you've
built your deck around having them, then you won't be able to get your
deck to work to the point of actually earning the Trophies. If you
don't really need them and your deck works fine without them, then why
bother with all the extra Trophy tech anyway?
That's simplifying things a little, and yes there are decks, even
currently, that are decent trophy hunters and that are improved by
getting the Trophies. But I think it would be nice if there were some
other way to get a trophy - when you need one in order to get your
deck to go, instead of after your deck has already proved it can go.
Of course, it would have to have the right restrictions, costs,
requirements... Obviously they're called Trophies because you get
them for doing something, not get them before you do anything, so it
shouldn't completely negate the reward for going after and blowing up
Red Listers... Once per game might be an appropriate restriction...
something unique... ridiculously expensive? I dunno... Like I said,
it's just an idea.
XZealot
> On Oct 20, 4:25 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Which means that you have burned TWO Red Listed minions, which in and
> > of itself is very hard to do just once.
>
> > I would like to see the decklist.
>
> I'm talking about a theoretical Trophy deck. Any trophy deck capable
> of burning 1 redlist minion (through diablerie) should be capable of
> diablerizing a nonredlist minion and I'm just saying that a situation
> may arise where you would want/need to do so. I'm not saying that it
> happens every single game or anything, just that it's possible. If you
> don't agree then I don't know if I can convince you. Whatever...
A deck list would be a good place to start.
Diableriziing a non-Red List and surviving the ensuing bloodhunt using
multiple Trophy: Diablieries with regularity is non-feasible IMHO.
I don't agree that it is feasible to plan to build a deck that can be
properly played to achieve that goal withing the PTW rules.
> This old one of yours would be enough as far as I can tell:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_f...
There is only one Trophy:Diablerie in that deck.
sg3kmb6...@gmail.com
> Diableriziing a non-Red List and surviving the ensuing bloodhunt using
> multiple Trophy: Diablieries with regularity is non-feasible IMHO.
>
> I don't agree that it is feasible to plan to build a deck that can be
> properly played to achieve that goal withing the PTW rules.
I've already said that I'm not talking about building a deck that aim
to do that. I'm saying that the situation may arise in a random game.
> > This old one of yours would be enough as far as I can tell:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_f...
>
> There is only one Trophy:Diablerie in that deck.
Yes. I've never said different.
Anyway, I'll give up here. If you don't believe that a situation ever
can come up where you might want to diablerize two non-redlist minions
in the same game then I guess it never will come up for you.
Thank you and good night.
bluedevil
> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
> Any thoughts?
Apologies if this has been suggested down-thread, as I skimmed most of
it, but what about putting the burn option on Trophies, with the
condition being that there are no red-listed minions in play? Burning
the red listed minion allows you to search through your ash heap, so
the card could be retrieved later if it became relevant. It would
allow the player to choose whether to build multiple trophies on the
board by consuming master phase actions, ditch them to improve card
flow, or both.
--
David Cherryholmes
XZealot
That is a good idea.
XZealot
> On Oct 22, 1:39 am, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Diableriziing a non-Red List and surviving the ensuing bloodhunt using
> > multiple Trophy: Diablieries with regularity is non-feasible IMHO.
>
> > I don't agree that it is feasible to plan to build a deck that can be
> > properly played to achieve that goal withing the PTW rules.
>
> I've already said that I'm not talking about building a deck that aim
> to do that. I'm saying that the situation may arise in a random game.
Why would you build a deck with two Trophy: Diableries in it for a
situation in a random game?
> > > This old one of yours would be enough as far as I can tell:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_f...
>
> > There is only one Trophy:Diablerie in that deck.
>
> Yes. I've never said different.
>
> Anyway, I'll give up here. If you don't believe that a situation ever
> can come up where you might want to diablerize two non-redlist minions
> in the same game then I guess it never will come up for you.
> Thank you and good night.
I am not saying that the situation would never come up. I agree it is
possible for the situation to occur. I am ask why you would make a
strategic decision when building your deck to include two Trophy:
Diableries.
Why would you do it?
Do you expect the situation to occur often enough that it is a
strategic advantage to include two Trophy: Diableries?
If it does why aren't you using all the other trophies that will
enhance the ousting/survival mechanisms in your deck?
Is the ability to survive diablerie once worth multiple inclusion in
your deck when there are so many other Trophies that have a much
broader application?
Specifically these are the questions that I would like you to answer
so that perhap I can understand your point of view.
Darby Keeney
> So, a brief conversation on #vtes last night prompted a few thoughts.
> This is more by way of kicking the tyres than a definite suggestion, but
> who knows?
>
> Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
>
> - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
Hmmmmm. To lessen the overhead of subsequent setup....
Trophy: On the List.
The first time this card is placed on a minion, the controller of that
minion may move the card to any other ready minion. That minion gains
the trait "Red List"
So, you kill your first Red List minion....poof, there's another Red
List minion in the queue for you.
Blooded Sand
> On Oct 17, 6:31 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > So, a brief conversation on #vtes last night prompted a few thoughts.
> > This is more by way of kicking the tyres than a definite suggestion, but
> > who knows?
>
> > Trophies are a bit lacklustre. The advantages of any given trophy can
> > be quite good, but the setup required to get most of them is either:
>
> > - luck dependent (is anyone playing a Red List minion?)
> > - intensive to set up - actions to pass, votes to pass etc.
>
> Hmmmmm. To lessen the overhead of subsequent setup....
Trophy: On the List.
The first time this card is placed on a minion, the controller of that
minion may move the card to any other ready minion. ***No minion
controlled by methuselah who plays this card may be targeted.*** That
minion gains
the trait "Red List"
>
> So, you kill your first Red List minion....poof, there's another Red
> List minion in the queue for you.
Addition to ensure it does not go to yourself, and to make sure it
ensures targets. Grnated Temptation will get around it, or mind rape,
or similar, but it does minimise uselessness
James Coupe
.com>, Darby Keeney <darby....@gmail.com> writes:
>Hmmmmm. To lessen the overhead of subsequent setup....
>
>Trophy: On the List.
>The first time this card is placed on a minion, the controller of that
>minion may move the card to any other ready minion. That minion gains
>the trait "Red List"
>
>So, you kill your first Red List minion....poof, there's another Red
>List minion in the queue for you.
That's quite cute and, being on a Trophy rather than an Event or
similar, can be yanked out of the library the first time you manage it.
I think there's probably a very solid card idea here.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
James Coupe
To be honest, I like it better without the addition.
1) Awarding Trophies to others is pretty rare anyhow.
2) I kinda like the potential for it to backfire - better make sure you
can trust the person you're dealing with.
Blooded Sand
> In message <db1f7bd2-0b42-4872-8d45-07641dfe3...@q35g2000hsg.googlegroup
I better make sure I can trust the player who's minion I have just
burned? Riiiiiiiiiiiight....
This card will always come back to you without the addition, which
makes it a one shot wonder in that case. Which is guaranteed to
backfire.
Honestly, if anyone played this on you, would you not give it back
asap?
Blooded Sand
> In message <db1f7bd2-0b42-4872-8d45-07641dfe3...@q35g2000hsg.googlegroup
Anyway, my argument is completely due to card text.
> >The first time this card is placed on a minion, the controller of that
> >minion may move the card to any other ready minion
Step by step. I play card after burning red list. I move card. This is
the first time the card is placed on that minion. It's controller may
now move the card.
Rather then just make it "the first time this card is played"...
Instead of "the first time this card is placed"...
James Coupe
I'm confused by what you write.
>> >The first time this card is placed on a minion, the controller of that
>> >minion may move the card to any other ready minion
>
>Step by step. I play card after burning red list.
Or have already played it, to get it out of my hand during my master
phase some time before.
>I move card.
To the vampire who just did the Red List burning, which will likely
either be me or a buddy of mine. If it's not a buddy of mine, I'm
unlikely to award him the Trophy - I make the decision about awarding
it, they can't just grab it because I'd put it in play.
>This is
>the first time the card is placed on that minion. It's controller may
>now move the card.
So either me, or the buddy I've given the card to, choose where the card
goes.
>Rather then just make it "the first time this card is played"...
>Instead of "the first time this card is placed"...
But that would stop the intended effect if you'd played it normally as a
master card (to get it out of your hand). At that point, the "play the
card" and "place the card on a vampire" steps will be very far apart -
possibly by a long way.
e.g. my turn.
Untap: as normal.
Master: crap, no useful masters in hand. I'll play this Trophy: On The
List to get it out of hand. <-- "The first time this card is played"
Minion: Okay, I rush Mata Hari. I kill her with Frederick the Weak. I
decide to award myself the Trophy in play (because I can) and maybe
some others too. Hurrah! <-- "The first time this card is placed on
a vampire"
In this scenario, I choose it when Frederick does the killing - but the
*play* was some time before.
Jeff Kuta
First, I like David Cherryholme's idea about giving all Trophy cards
the burn option of "No Red List" in play. Easy to cycle, but you still
have to use MPAs to put them in play for stacking on a single Red List
burn.
I also like Darby's "Trophy: On the List" though I'd tweak it like
this:
Trophy: On the List
When this Trophy is placed on a vampire as the result of burning a Red
List minion, the controller of the vampire may place it on a ready
minion controlled by a different Methuselah than the burned minion.
The minion with this card is considered Red List.
This way it's not a one-shot Trophy. But you can't simply pound away
forever at your prey without them getting some reprieve, and in the
two-player game its value is very small. Probably alternate between
your prey and predator for the most part.
Another trophy:
Trophy: Exaction
Master. Trophy.
When this vampire burns a Red List minion, move 1 pool from the burned
minion's controller to this vampire's controller.
Jeff
Thrall of Arika
My problem with this is that it's not really thematic. A Trophy is
meant to represent physical rewards, favours or prestige, not just a
"good work, here's another one for you". This is more a 'reward' for
the Methuselah, not the vampire.
Perhaps giving the trophy-hunter the ability to make other minions Red
List would be more in tune. I suppose it still a slow mechanic,
though. Or perhaps a Trifle master card that can make another minion
Red List, provided you have a vampire with at least one Trophy.
> This way it's not a one-shot Trophy. But you can't simply pound away
> forever at your prey without them getting some reprieve, and in the
> two-player game its value is very small. Probably alternate between
> your prey and predator for the most part.
>
> Another trophy:
>
> Trophy: Exaction
> Master. Trophy.
> When this vampire burns a Red List minion, move 1 pool from the burned
> minion's controller to this vampire's controller.
>
> Jeff
I like this one. My trophy decks tend to continue with the Red Listing/
killing, even after getting Trophies handed out, so this would
synergize well with that. It also means that more combat oriented
decks don't have to shift gears as much to oust (as say with Revered).
Perhaps a line of minor trophies, gained by putting Red List minions
into torpor. They could be burnable one time cards, or lesser versions
of current trophies. Say instead of Wealth's 5 counters, Monetary Boon
could have 2 counters, only usable for one piece of equipment.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
dog$
modified is how they're obtained, rather than what they do.
I think it would be cool if Trophies were awarded for a vampire
performing things like an oust bleed (with a limit of obtaining only
one Trophy in doing so or something).
The only World of Darkness material I know is from this game, so I
don't know if doing so is compatible with whatever vision was behind
Trophies.
XZealot
> I'm simply of the opinion that the part of Trophies which needs to be
> modified is how they're obtained, rather than what they do.
>
> I think it would be cool if Trophies were awarded for a vampire
> performing things like an oust bleed (with a limit of obtaining only
> one Trophy in doing so or something).
BAFFLE!
> The only World of Darkness material I know is from this game, so I
> don't know if doing so is compatible with whatever vision was behind
> Trophies.
Read Kindred Most Wanted book of the 13 most Dangerous vampires in the
World all who have trophies offered for their demise. The trophies
are actually offered by clans themselves so that might be an
interesting effect to consider ( Trifle card- get a Trophy from your
deck and put into play and name a clan this trophy can only be awarded
to a member of that clan)
The trophies are actually awarded for the inert staked body of the
Anathema being presented for judgement.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
James Coupe
s.com>, Darby Keeney <darby....@gmail.com> writes:
>If the issues I described are accurate, the inefficiency resides in
>mechanism to invoke the Red List system, rather than the Trophy
>rewards. Here are my suggestions, certainly open to having holes
>shot in them left and right.
I've been mulling this over, and this idea occurred this morning.
Here's an alternative way of invoking Red List.
Decoy
Caitiff
Group: *
Capacity: 1
Independent. During your untap phase, draw a card from your crypt and
remove Decoy from play. If Decoy was ready, select a minion
controlled by your predator or prey. That minion is now Red List.
The slight delay is an attempt to make up for the lack of an action to
block. Also, the enforced removal from the game means he doesn't add to
weenie nightmares.
Two players playing a Trophy deck using Decoy might have to learn to
share nicely (or not). Or you could make Decoy non-unique, which is
less of a bother when he's forced to leave the game (unlike Anarch
Convert), although that would let you Red List two or more minions at
once this way.
Anyway, food for thought.
Blooded Sand
> In message <ddbdfdef-2668-4755-b58a-f091578bf...@g61g2000hsf.googlegroup
Nice idea. Could be potent. I bring out tupdog, use anarch convert to
convert him, then use decoy to make someone red list ;)
Sutekh_23
> In message <ddbdfdef-2668-4755-b58a-f091578bf...@g61g2000hsf.googlegroup
>
> >If the issues I described are accurate, the inefficiency resides in
> >mechanism to invoke the Red List system, rather than the Trophy
> >rewards. Here are my suggestions, certainly open to having holes
> >shot in them left and right.
>
> I've been mulling this over, and this idea occurred this morning.
> Here's an alternative way of invoking Red List.
>
> Decoy
> Caitiff
> Group: *
> Capacity: 1
> Independent. During your untap phase, draw a card from your crypt and
> remove Decoy from play. If Decoy was ready, select a minion
> controlled by your predator or prey. That minion is now Red List.
>
> The slight delay is an attempt to make up for the lack of an action to
> block. Also, the enforced removal from the game means he doesn't add to
> weenie nightmares.
>
> Two players playing a Trophy deck using Decoy might have to learn to
> share nicely (or not). Or you could make Decoy non-unique, which is
> less of a bother when he's forced to leave the game (unlike Anarch
> Convert), although that would let you Red List two or more minions at
> once this way.
>
> Anyway, food for thought.
>
> --
balanced. I'm not so sure about the need to be ready part as anyone
has a free turn to rush your decoy and cause you to either rescue it
or loose a pool.
Might I suggest this alternative:
Decoy
Catiff
Group *
Capacity 1
Independent, non unique.
During you untap phase, if decoy is ready you may remove him from the
game to make a minion controlled by your predator or prey redlist. At
the end of your next untap phase remove decoy from the game and move
the top crypt card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region.
What do you think?
Sutekh_23
Darby Keeney
> I've been mulling this over, and this idea occurred this morning.
> Here's an alternative way of invoking Red List.
>
> Decoy
> Caitiff
> Group: *
> Capacity: 1
> Independent. During your untap phase, draw a card from your crypt and
> remove Decoy from play. If Decoy was ready, select a minion
> controlled by your predator or prey. That minion is now Red List.
>
> The slight delay is an attempt to make up for the lack of an action to
> block. Also, the enforced removal from the game means he doesn't add to
> weenie nightmares.
Previously, I was careful NOT to mention the overhead comparison to
pre-Twilight Anarchs, but it was clearly on my mind as I drafted the
"Why the heck would I bother with Red List" post. Applying some of
the same tech to alleivate the overhead seems spot on.
So Decoy seems reasonable and I really like the "you MUST pop him"
clause and the predator/prey only angle. He also doesn't make the
timebound problems any worse...you pop him in your Untap, mark the new
Redlist (assuming one didn't do away with marking entirely) in your
Master, then rush away in your Minions. It's a 1 turn deferral (not
too bad) that effectively costs a pool - seems like a very good start
to me.
The only question in my mind is that I don't know if some self-removal
option is needed for balance.
Kind regards,
Darby
Chris Berger
> On Nov 5, 1:50 am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > I've been mulling this over, and this idea occurred this morning.
> > Here's an alternative way of invoking Red List.
>
> > Decoy
> > Caitiff
> > Group: *
> > Capacity: 1
> > Independent. During your untap phase, draw a card from your crypt and
> > remove Decoy from play. If Decoy was ready, select a minion
> > controlled by your predator or prey. That minion is now Red List.
>
>
> option is needed for balance.
>
It might also be interesting to be able to pop him to remove the Red
List trait from one of your own minions (and maybe when you do that
your predator can move a Trophy he controls to one of his minions - "I
killed a Red List" "that was a Decoy, you idiot" "prove it"). That
puts the self-removal into the same card. On the one hand, I think
it's an elegant solution, although on the other hand it makes it
something of an arms race, where if you're afraid of Decoys you have
to play with Decoys. Personally, I think it would be alright.
Also, I'd consider making the Decoy an Anarch, just for the hell of
it.
Actually, my thoughts on him... making him a Red List Anarch that can
actually be used as a 1 cap Caitiff (not mandating that you pop
him)...
Decoy
Caitiff
Group: *
Capacity: 1
Independent, Anarch, Red List. If Decoy goes to torpor, burn him
instead. If Decoy is burned, your predator may move a Trophy he
controls to one of his non-Red List vampires with capacity greater
than 5. During your untap phase, you may burn Decoy to remove the Red
List trait from one of your vampires, or to select a minion controlled
by any methuselah - that minion is now Red List. If you do, you may
move a card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region or gain a
pool.
I chose burn instead of removed from the game a) because it's easier
to word the Trophy part if it just happens when he's burned, and thus
your predator can get a trophy if you use him in either way *or* if he
sends him to torpor), b) so you get pinged by Tension (balanced out by
the option to gain a pool instead of the crypt acceleration), and c)
because I don't see a way to really abuse being burned instead of
removed from the game in this instance.
James Coupe
s.com>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>It might also be interesting to be able to pop him to remove the Red
>List trait from one of your own minions (and maybe when you do that
>your predator can move a Trophy he controls to one of his minions - "I
>killed a Red List" "that was a Decoy, you idiot" "prove it"). That
>puts the self-removal into the same card. On the one hand, I think
>it's an elegant solution, although on the other hand it makes it
>something of an arms race, where if you're afraid of Decoys you have
>to play with Decoys. Personally, I think it would be alright.
I was pretty much trying to remove the possibility that the best way to
defeat Decoy is to play Decoy. That's partly why I went with the
enforced popping. I didn't want it to be a card that people could drop
in their decks and bleed with. It doesn't add to the "Burn Option"
style of Anarch Convert problem, if filtering your crypt like that is a
problem, because you can already do that with just Anarch Convert, so I
wasn't worried about that.
>Decoy
>Caitiff
>Group: *
>Capacity: 1
>Independent, Anarch, Red List. If Decoy goes to torpor, burn him
>instead. If Decoy is burned, your predator may move a Trophy he
>controls to one of his non-Red List vampires with capacity greater
>than 5. During your untap phase, you may burn Decoy to remove the Red
>List trait from one of your vampires, or to select a minion controlled
>by any methuselah - that minion is now Red List. If you do, you may
>move a card from your crypt to your uncontrolled region or gain a
>pool.
Sadly, *way* too long for your average crypt card. Even if you could
redesign the crypt template for one or two cards (which isn't
impossible, I guess), you're venturing into Seven Line Syndrome, beyond
which many players don't read.
>I chose burn instead of removed from the game a) because it's easier
>to word the Trophy part if it just happens when he's burned, and thus
>your predator can get a trophy if you use him in either way *or* if he
>sends him to torpor), b) so you get pinged by Tension (balanced out by
>the option to gain a pool instead of the crypt acceleration), and c)
>because I don't see a way to really abuse being burned instead of
>removed from the game in this instance.
Me, I'd be tempted to
a) drop the predator trophy part (to slim the card down) - I think it's
sufficiently corner case that it would likely just bulk up the text
without much real benefit
b) avoid triggering Tension, because combat/Trophy decks already often
have a hard enough time with pool management as it is.
Re: c), I had vague inklings of people doing things with Possession or
something. I couldn't find anything that was immediately broken, or
clearly going to be an unintended side-effect, but was trying to avoid
it being possible if someone found a corner to poke a hole in.
James Coupe
s.com>, Sutekh_23 <rebecca.m...@bigpond.com> writes:
>I'm not so sure about the need to be ready part as anyone
>has a free turn to rush your decoy and cause you to either rescue it
>or loose a pool.
That was intentional. If it doesn't have an action and it's not (for
example) a master card with some sort of burn clause or block/cancel
clause, I wanted something that would make it weaker.
James Coupe
>> I've been mulling this over, and this idea occurred this morning.
>> Here's an alternative way of invoking Red List.
>>
>> Decoy
>> Caitiff
>> Group: *
>> Capacity: 1
>> Independent. During your untap phase, draw a card from your crypt and
>> remove Decoy from play. If Decoy was ready, select a minion
>> controlled by your predator or prey. That minion is now Red List.
>>
>> The slight delay is an attempt to make up for the lack of an action to
>> block. Also, the enforced removal from the game means he doesn't add to
>> weenie nightmares.
>
>Previously, I was careful NOT to mention the overhead comparison to
>pre-Twilight Anarchs, but it was clearly on my mind as I drafted the
>"Why the heck would I bother with Red List" post. Applying some of
>the same tech to alleivate the overhead seems spot on.
An alternative that occurred, partly in response to Sutekh's worry about
rushing the weenie but still providing a target, goes something like:
... draw a card from your crypt, remove Decoy from play and, if you
control a ready titled vampire, select a minion controlled by your
predator or prey; that minion is now Red List.
There's still a target to try to go punch/Banish, which you can even do
pre-emptively, but it's not just the defenceless Decoy. It also
obviously preserves the titled nature of Red Listing so far, which may
or may not be a good thing. However, I think you could make a good case
for it in a variety of combative decks - block combat with a Magaji,
Euro-Brujah... that freakish little Blood Brother deck that had a Bishop
along that I think Matt Morgan was responsible for. Anneke? Various
Tzimisce decks often could have a fattie in tow, like Sascha or
Meshenka.
Hmm. I don't think it's too bad even with the title requirement. I'm
not sure it's still spot on, though. :-)
James Coupe
<ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes:
>In message <97dcc8d7-adbf-4859...@q30g2000prq.googlegroup
>s.com>, Chris Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>>c)
>>because I don't see a way to really abuse being burned instead of
>>removed from the game in this instance.
>
>something. I couldn't find anything that was immediately broken, or
>clearly going to be an unintended side-effect, but was trying to avoid
>it being possible if someone found a corner to poke a hole in.
*resurrects old post*
Oh, I remember now. It did occur at the time, but then I forgot it, but
then I remembered it due to discussions with Rob Treasure and an
experience at the UK Nats.
Enforced popping with a cheap vamp that burns = Khazar's Diary fuel.
Having the crypt option as well as cheap allies strikes me as
potentially a little more speedy than I'd like.
Even if I didn't think about it at the time - which I think I did, and
hope my memory isn't playing tricks on me - it's as good a reason as any
to avoid burning Decoys and have them remove themselves from the game.