Wash vs Sudden; Vessel vs Blood Doll; Villein vs Minion Tap; DI2 vs DI
librarian
Wash is better than Sudden around 40% of the time.
Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
Villein is better than Minion Tap about 85% of the time.
Dark Influences is better than Direct Intervention about 5% of the time.
best -
chris
henrik
Wash is better than Sudden if you play lots of other master cards (and
no other way of getting more master phases).
Vessel is better than Blood Doll if your opponents plays Blood Doll.
Villein is better than Minion Tap.
Dark Influences vs Direct Intervention is kinda hard imo, I think the
cards are usable in very different decks/ways. Most of the times the
old way wins though, at least until Dark Influences starts to get used
more (since that'll make DI less good).
Johann von Doom
Dare I even ask where you obtained these numbers from?
John Eno
LSJ
Quoth the librarian: "In my opinion"
Chris Berger
wrote:
From the rectal file. =)
Although, actually, I mostly agree with his estimation, other than
Wash, which I think is more 50/50 or even slightly in favor of Wash.
henrik
That doesn't answer the question though. Opinion or not, the numbers
are bound to come from somewhere.
Johann von Doom
> > Dare I even ask where you obtained these numbers from?
>
> Quoth the librarian: "In my opinion"
Yeah, I should have pointed out that I did see that bit of librarian's
post. What I'm wondering is how those numbers were formulated. Are
they based on personal play experience, armchair speculation, other
players' war stories, astrological conjunctions, or what?
John Eno
librarian
Chris is mostly right, they are PFA. Based on experience mostly, a
little on anecdotal evidence, and slightly on consideration of
discussions here on this NG.
What's your opinion on them?
best -
chris
suolir...@gmail.com
Looks more like an expression of a personal than a mathematical
truth. The numbers come from the same place as when you are asked to
rate your mood on a scale of 1 to 5.
suolir...@gmail.com
> On 26 touko, 23:24, henrik <www.hen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On May 26, 9:10 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
> > > Johann von Doom wrote:
> > > > On May 26, 3:16 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
> > > >> In my opinion:
>
> > > >> Wash is better than Sudden around 40% of the time.
>
> > > >> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
>
> > > >> Villein is better than Minion Tap about 85% of the time.
>
> > > >> Dark Influences is better than Direct Intervention about 5% of the time.
>
> > > > Dare I even ask where you obtained these numbers from?
>
> > > Quoth the librarian: "In my opinion"
>
> > That doesn't answer the question though. Opinion or not, the numbers
> > are bound to come from somewhere.
Looks more like an expression of a personal -opinion- than a
librarian
Sure. I answered Chris Berger somewhere else on the thread, but mostly
from personal experience, observation, listening to others, and
following various discussions here.
You ask in such a way as to indicate that my numbers are very different
from your opinion. Dare I even ask why?
best -
chris
Kevin M.
> In my opinion:
> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
In what cases is Vessel better than Blood Doll, assuming that
60% of ALL Blood Dolls are now Vessel?
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Peter D Bakija
I'd probably go lower than that. I find that SR is best for saving you
from a clinch master (i.e. your prey Minion Tapping for 7 when he is at
3 pool). Giving him the opportunity to play the second one in his hand
really can kill you. I generally don't have a huge number of these in
decks, and I find that the SR tends to pay off more often. And the Wash
gets played more often just to get it out of my hand. Which is bad for
that sort of thing.
> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
I find that I'm generally using Vessel in decks that have other forms of
pool gain (i.e. bloaty vote decks) or pool defense (lots of bounce) and
not a ton of them (3-4). I find that I'm *still* using Blood Doll in
decks that rely on the BD bloat to live and have a lot of them (i.e.
decks that used to have 8+ Blood Dolls still have 8+ Blood Dolls; decks
that used to have 2-3 Blood Dolls often now have 2-3 Vessels instead).
> Villein is better than Minion Tap about 85% of the time.
Yeah, often that seems to be the case. About 85% often :-)
Tap is still better in "One Big Minion Tap Abuse decks" and recursion
decks (see: your own Ashur Tablet decks). But as a splash in, yeah,
Villein is better.
> Dark Influences is better than Direct Intervention about 5% of the time.
I have used this a couple times, and never find it better than a DI.
Although at least once, I played it, and someone was like "Damn. Now I
can't DI..."
But not often enough to justify actually using it on a regular basis.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
-Gaff
James Coupe
>librarian wrote:
>> In my opinion:
>> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
>
>In what cases is Vessel better than Blood Doll, assuming that
>60% of ALL Blood Dolls are now Vessel?
If 60% of all Blood Dolls are now Vessel, a Vessel will be better for
you if:
- you can afford the pool cost / delay in generation
- you don't want it to explode to someone else's Vessel.
A key feature of the Vessel vs Blood Doll argument isn't, as I've seen
you argue before, "This or that deck totally doesn't need Vessel and
should use Blood Doll" - in the way you might argue for Lost in Crowds
over Forgotten Labyrinth, or vice versa.
Blood Doll vs Vessel is much more dependent on your metagame.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Johann von Doom
> Sure. I answered Chris Berger somewhere else on the thread, but mostly
> from personal experience, observation, listening to others, and
> following various discussions here.
Cool. Thanks for clarifying.
> You ask in such a way as to indicate that my numbers are very different
> from your opinion.
Well, kind of. The difference is that I wouldn't try to quantify the
efficiency of X vs. Y without putting them into context. I don't think
I'd even go for arguing one way or the other non-numerically, without
context.
Or in other words, X is always better than Y in decks and metagames
where X is better than Y. (Insert any card pairing you want for X and
Y here.)
> Dare I even ask why?
You just did!
*dramatic horn blare*
A lot of the times I see people try to quantify card value on the
newsgroup, the numbers they come up with seem to be from their asses,
but they won't admit as much. I thank you for having the moxie to step
up and own that. :)
John Eno
librarian
> librarian wrote:
>> In my opinion:
>> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
>
> In what cases is Vessel better than Blood Doll, assuming that
> 60% of ALL Blood Dolls are now Vessel?
>
>
>
Well, that's not what I am seeing yet. Even on JOL. For me, I like
that Vessel works during my untap, and it burns BD's. And it's a trifle.
And I usually go with 3/2 Vessel to BD ratio in decks with that many of
that type of card. But not always.
best -
chris
brandons...@yahoo.com
wrote:
In my meta game, blood dolls are fairly safe from being blown up. That
said, maybe one or two blood dolls may be blown up in a game. If I
concern myself with metagaming for that during deck construction(since
it is variable), then I either make sure that I have enough blood
dolls in the deck to withstand it and give me enough blood back (4+,
as high as 6), or I run Vessel, or I avoid both in favor of MT. For
example, if I am running a wall deck with the Rack, I'm likely to have
a fairly high master count and need the trifleness/extra space in the
deck. For decent sized vampires, Villein(if I had any) would work
about as well and be free.
As for Sudden Reversal vs. Wash, I think that SR better if you are
trying to mess with the whole table, while Wash is better for a deck
with weak defenses that is prey-focused. The DNR restriction doesn't
matter if your defense is "I can oust you faster," plus you can Pentex
Subvert or Misdirect a minion after playing Wash.
I still don't think I've seen DI2 played, so I'll have to go with DI1
by far at this point. If you play a deck that plans on stealing lots
of minions or rushing, I could see DI2 having more use. If you want to
shut down some deck that plays the same action card with a lot of
minions in one turn, DI2 could also have the advantage
Brandon
Chris Berger
> Kevin M. <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> >librarian wrote:
> >> In my opinion:
> >> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
>
> >In what cases is Vessel better than Blood Doll, assuming that
> >60% of ALL Blood Dolls are now Vessel?
>
> If 60% of all Blood Dolls are now Vessel, a Vessel will be better for
> you if:
>
> - you can afford the pool cost / delay in generation
> - you don't want it to explode to someone else's Vessel.
>
My personal opinion of Vessel vs. Blood Doll is that ~95% of the time
there is a pretty even trade-off between (trifle-1 pool-pays off later-
pops a blood doll) and (free-pays off immediately). If you don't have
the master phase actions available, you'd go with Vessel; if you need
it as an offensive weapon to stop prey's pool gain, you'd go with
Vessel; otherwise Blood Doll. I think that those situations balance
out very evenly and alone make for a good balance between the two.
The other ~5% of the time is when you really need the sucking/pushing
to happen during the untap phase. Specifically for vamps like
Danielle Diron and Jeremy Talbot. Vessel is WAY better for those two
vampires, and also for some other wacky situations where the untap
timing is important (it seems less common for you to "need" the
transfer to happen during master phase, other than when initially
playing the blood doll, and in cases like Palatial Estate where it
might make a difference, the potential payoff is less (i.e. if I
*have* to use it that way, then the vamp is hunting this turn
anyway)). In those situations Vessel is, IMHO, better than Blood Doll
95-100% of the time. I also find myself building decks with too many
master cards for their own good a whole lot, so I take advantage of
the trifleness of Vessel a lot. But costing a pool is a much larger
cost than essentially gaining you a pool (at a 1 blood cost)
immediately like Blood Doll. Even Blood Dolls that get blown up
immediately still tend to have been a good use of an MPA if it gains
you a pool or lets an empty vampire act. So yeah, I think 55% to 60%
of the time better than BD seems accurate.
Minion Tap, on the other hand - unless you're really planning on
abusing Minion Tap, Villein offers trifleness with almost no
restrictions, and actually benefits you if your opponents are playing
Minion Tap. If you really plan to abuse the hell out of Minion Tap,
then it is better than Villein except in an environment that is VERY
rich in Villeins (as in, expect to see 3+ of them played by your
opponents in a game). So ~80% better than MT seems accurate.
Wash, for me, is again a case of I often have decks that are too
master-heavy for their own good. In the decks where I'm playing 10-14
masters, I tend to never even think about playing Suddens - my master
card slots are precious and must be used only to further my own
ends... if I have room for reactive masters, they tend to be Archon
Investigations, which tend to have a huge swing effect - much more
than Suddens usually have. In master-heavy decks, if I'm gonna play a
Sudden-type effect, it'll tend to be Wash, just because of the
trifleness. For me, Wash is easier to build into a deck than Sudden
like 80% of the time. But a lot of those times, you wish you had a
real Sudden and didn't give them back their MPA, so 50/50 or a little
better for Wash seems accurate.
DI1 vs. DI2 is, IMHO, fairly obviously a metagame issue, but the fact
that DI2 costs double the pool of DI1 makes it a tough road to hoe.
And unlike the other cards discussed, which have a built in reason for
going into certain decks (trifleness, primarily), the reason to choose
DI2 over DI1 is if you're afraid that your cards are likely to be
cancelled. That is very reactive, and there's not really a way to
say, at the deckbuilding stage, "this deck really fears having its
cards cancelled more than any other deck". I mean, I've considered it
in my Enkidu-Rebirth deck, because I've found out that having a
Rebirth cancelled is devastating, but a) that's a fairly unlikely
characteristic to notice in a deck you're building, and b) it's a
combat deck which means little room for masters anyway... also, I'd
rather just use a Gangrel Conspiracy for surprise factor and no pool
cost.
atirila
> > Dark Influences is better than Direct Intervention about 5% of the time.
>
> I have used this a couple times, and never find it better than a DI.
> Although at least once, I played it, and someone was like "Damn. Now I
> can't DI..."
For me one of the points for using DI2 is this part of the card text:
"That (canceled) card cannot be played again for the remainder of the
turn."
Weenie KRC deck, or a Kindred Spirits deck, or a Deep Song deck or
whatever that uses one strong card, starts to lunge oust you. You
cancel the first card and it cannot be played again this turn. This is
strong imo.
Antti
ben...@gmail.com
Chris Shorb wrote:
> Vessel is better than Blood Doll around 60% of the time.
Over the course of 13 rounds of 2008 EC and 2009 NAC play, I lost a
grand total of 2 Blood Dolls to Vessels.
Vessel is garbage.
- Ben Peal
Johannes Walch
I really like playing Vessel and Blood Doll in the same Deck.
Double hunt-bloat fun.
Just because of trifleness, not due to the destroy effect.
Johannes
jwnew...@bellsouth.net
> Blood Doll vs Vessel is much more dependent on your metagame.
Blood Doll vs Vessel is almost entirely dependent on whether you'll be
able to reliably use that extra MPA.
-witness1
ben...@gmail.com
> I really like playing Vessel and Blood Doll in the same Deck.
> Double hunt-bloat fun.
> Just because of trifleness, not due to the destroy effect.
Vessel isn't pool gain. Play Ascendance if you want more pool than
Vessel.
- Ben Peal
ben...@gmail.com
> James Coupe wrote:
> > Blood Doll vs Vessel is much more dependent on your metagame.
>
> Blood Doll vs Vessel is almost entirely dependent on whether you'll be
> able to reliably use that extra MPA.
Blood Doll vs. Vessel is entirely dependent on your ability to do
math.
- Ben Peal
Johannes Walch
I don�t agree. Sure, Vessel takes 2 turns longer, but most games are
somewhere between 12-15 turns. Given you play the Vessel before turn
10-13 it gives you a net pool gain. That is very likely. On top of that
Ascendance is not a trifle.
If I play Vessel and Blood Doll in the same turn I do not loose pool
right away and will be gaining 2 per turn starting on the next turn.
That sounds better to me than just having a blood doll, because on the
next turn I am allready brake even + 1 more per turn after that.
Of course all this is based on the assumption that you have a solid
blood gain on your vampires, e.g by reliable hunting a lot for example
with Embraces or other means (Voter cap ..).
So Vessel isnt terribly effective but it has its uses, especially when
combined with Blood Doll. It is more efficient when playing against Ben
because then you can destroy his Blood Dolls :)
Thats the plain pool gain math. Now you have to figure in psychology. A
lot of predators don�t go for the oust when they say you easily outbloat
them. And irrelevant of the math if you have X Vessel and X BD on your
vamps a lot of predators might hold back (by error), however X BD alone
wouldnt scare anyone of (X being 2, 3).
Another factor is the pressure curve. Main problem is with BD/Vessel
combo that the gain is better but delayed. That is a problem when you
have a very aggressive weenieish predator because you might be dead by
the time you would collect the earnings. So the decision on the exact
module of bloat is always dependent of the meta-game.
Johannes
gra...@hotmail.com
>
> > I have used this a couple times, and never find it better than a DI.
> > Although at least once, I played it, and someone was like "Damn. Now I
> > can't DI..."
>
> For me one of the points for using DI2 is this part of the card text:
> "That (canceled) card cannot be played again for the remainder of the
> turn."
This.
the final of the Sydney Qualifier was won with a DI2. Michael had just
ousted his prey. I had 4 vamps out, a handful of combat and 2 Bum's
Rush. My prey was on 5 pool. I rushed Michael, he played a DI2.
That was it. I didn't have enough bleed to oust my prey, and I
couldn't kill michael's vamps. If it was a normal DI, I could have
rushed with the 2nd Bum's Rush. Wasted one of michaels' vamps, and
maybe drawn into a bit of other stuff. Bleed, more rush, etc.
--> J
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > Vessel isn't pool gain. Play Ascendance if you want more pool than
> > Vessel.
>
> I don´t agree. Sure, Vessel takes 2 turns longer, but most games are
> somewhere between 12-15 turns. Given you play the Vessel before turn
> 10-13 it gives you a net pool gain. That is very likely. On top of that
> Ascendance is not a trifle.
If Vessel is going to out-pool-gain Ascendance, it will take 3 more
turns and 3 blood off of one of your vampires. I suppose if you're a
fan of the "force my own vampires to hunt" strategy, it's better than
Rutor's Hand.
> If I play Vessel and Blood Doll in the same turn I do not loose pool
> right away and will be gaining 2 per turn starting on the next turn.
> That sounds better to me than just having a blood doll, because on the
> next turn I am allready brake even + 1 more per turn after that.
Or you could not bother with Vessel, play a second Blood Doll on a
later turn, and come out even further ahead on both pool and blood on
your vampires.
> Of course all this is based on the assumption that you have a solid
> blood gain on your vampires, e.g by reliable hunting a lot for example
> with Embraces or other means (Voter cap ..).
So you're making Embraces as part of a pool gain strategy, and you
choose...Vessel?
> So Vessel isnt terribly effective but it has its uses, especially when
> combined with Blood Doll. It is more efficient when playing against Ben
> because then you can destroy his Blood Dolls :)
13 continental championship games in 2008, 2 Blood Dolls lost to
Vessels.
> Thats the plain pool gain math. Now you have to figure in psychology. A
> lot of predators don´t go for the oust when they say you easily outbloat
> them. And irrelevant of the math if you have X Vessel and X BD on your
> vamps a lot of predators might hold back (by error), however X BD alone
> wouldnt scare anyone of (X being 2, 3).
If part of the Vessel strategy is "hope they play badly", then it
doesn't speak well for Vessel.
> Another factor is the pressure curve. Main problem is with BD/Vessel
> combo that the gain is better but delayed. That is a problem when you
> have a very aggressive weenieish predator because you might be dead by
> the time you would collect the earnings. So the decision on the exact
> module of bloat is always dependent of the meta-game.
Or you could go with the BD+BD combo, worry less about weenies, and
gain even more pool.
Alternately, you could try the "discard my Vessel" strategy if you
have a weenie predator. It's good training for the "remove Vessel
from my deck" strategy.
- Ben Peal
jwnew...@bellsouth.net
> Johannes Walch wrote:
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > If I play Vessel and Blood Doll in the same turn I do not loose pool
> > right away and will be gaining 2 per turn starting on the next turn.
> > That sounds better to me than just having a blood doll, because on the
> > next turn I am allready brake even + 1 more per turn after that.
>
> Or you could not bother with Vessel, play a second Blood Doll on a
> later turn, and come out even further ahead on both pool and blood on
> your vampires.
You can still play Blood Doll on a later turn if you play Vessel +
Blood Doll this turn (instead of just Blood Doll this turn).
-witness1
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > Or you could not bother with Vessel, play a second Blood Doll on a
> > later turn, and come out even further ahead on both pool and blood on
> > your vampires.
>
> You can still play Blood Doll on a later turn if you play Vessel +
> Blood Doll this turn (instead of just Blood Doll this turn).
Or you could just play one Blood Doll and leave the Vessel out of
your deck and be better off for it.
- Ben Peal
suolir...@gmail.com
> > So Vessel isnt terribly effective but it has its uses, especially when
> > combined with Blood Doll. It is more efficient when playing against Ben
> > because then you can destroy his Blood Dolls :)
>
> 13 continental championship games in 2008, 2 Blood Dolls lost to
> Vessels.
I haven't lost a single Blood Doll to a Vessel since LotN, can you
guess why?
On a more serious note, 90% of the Blood Dolls that I saw in the last
20 games I played were burned by a Vessel.
preac...@gmx.at
>
> 13 continental championship games in 2008, 2 Blood Dolls lost to
> Vessels.
Well, this might be only anecdotal, but in my environment in Vienna,
where we have 2 former European Champions and other internationally
strong players, Blood Dolls are almost completely non-existent.
The general belief is that Blood is worthless, cause it explodes to
Vessels. My experience suggests that this is true in our environment.
Before Vessel, every deck packed between 4 and 8 Blood Dolls (very few
exceptions). Those are now completely replaced with Vessels. Anyone
playing BDs gets them burnt by the other players (though normally not
cross-table).
*sigh*
Kevin M.
So Blood Doll is really 50% better than your group believe it to be, since
people don't (or shouldn't be) Vesseling it cross-table?
And why would your prey necessarily Vessel your Blood Doll? Often,
an excellent strategy is to let your predator bloat for a while.
brandons...@yahoo.com
If you are playing KS stealth bleed and plan to back-oust at least
part of the time, you could play Villein/Vessel together to reduce the
bloat of other players. If you really want to be a jerk, do that and
include Tarautas to extra-hose BD and MT. But, I diress.
Tarautas 4 aus nec tha while Tarautas is ready, blood doll and minion
tap cards cost an additional pool
Ira Fay
Clearly Ben is employing a deep strategy of trying to convince
everyone that Vessel is garbage so he can play Blood Dolls more
safely. OR, even more insidious, bring an all-Vessel deck to NAC 2010
and blow up everyone else's Blood Dolls. :)
Ira
ben...@gmail.com
> Well, this might be only anecdotal, but in my environment in Vienna,
> where we have 2 former European Champions and other internationally
> strong players, Blood Dolls are almost completely non-existent.
> The general belief is that Blood is worthless, cause it explodes to
> Vessels. My experience suggests that this is true in our environment.
> Before Vessel, every deck packed between 4 and 8 Blood Dolls (very few
> exceptions). Those are now completely replaced with Vessels. Anyone
> playing BDs gets them burnt by the other players (though normally not
> cross-table).
> *sigh*
If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos. 1
turn to gain one pool, or 3 turns to gain one pool and lose 2 blood
off of a vampire.
Also try playing Strained Vitae Supply. ;)
- Ben Peal
ben...@gmail.com
> And why would your prey necessarily Vessel your Blood Doll? Often,
> an excellent strategy is to let your predator bloat for a while.
What? Bloating predators will make more things with which to kill
you. Don't let your predators bloat.
- Ben Peal
ben...@gmail.com
> Clearly Ben is employing a deep strategy of trying to convince
> everyone that Vessel is garbage so he can play Blood Dolls more
> safely. OR, even more insidious, bring an all-Vessel deck to NAC 2010
> and blow up everyone else's Blood Dolls. :)
I haven't adjusted my use of Blood Doll at all since LotN was
released, as I haven't seen the need to.
- Ben Peal
D.J.
> If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
> instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos. 1
> turn to gain one pool, or 3 turns to gain one pool and lose 2 blood
> off of a vampire.
Well, really, mix in some Life in the City, too, for those times when
you find yourself wishing you could push a blood to a vampire instead
of taking a pool. 'Cause Vessel *can* do that, although compared to
Blood Doll it's particularly horrid for it. Plus Life in the City is
a Trifle, just like Vessel.
- D.J.
ben...@gmail.com
> I haven't lost a single Blood Doll to a Vessel since LotN, can you
> guess why?
Glad to hear you haven't stopped playing Imbued! ;)
> On a more serious note, 90% of the Blood Dolls that I saw in the last
> 20 games I played were burned by a Vessel.
The Blood Dolls still came out ahead.
- Ben Peal
Chris Berger
Just out of curiosity, do you consider Vessel to be really, really bad
even when used in conjunction with Jeremy Talbot or Danielle Diron,
two vamps with whom Vessel allows you to gain pool without losing
blood?
I admit I see your point, but I disagree with the degree.
ben...@gmail.com
> Just out of curiosity, do you consider Vessel to be really, really bad
> even when used in conjunction with Jeremy Talbot or Danielle Diron,
> two vamps with whom Vessel allows you to gain pool without losing
> blood?
>
> I admit I see your point, but I disagree with the degree.
Oh, the case of Danielle and Jeremy (especially Danielle), you don't
have to build any additional infrastructure into your library to make
Vessel useful - it's handled by the crypt. So, yeah, sure, it's a
good application of Vessel. Similarly, you can set up a Parthenon +
Anthelios loop with Jake Washington, and Vessel would be good there,
as well.
Speaking of Jake Washington, another good use for Vessel is in a
Khazar's Diary deck, as it facilitates popping Jake and scoring
counters on the Diary.
- Ben Peal
Chris Berger
Okay, just making sure your hatred of Vessel wasn't CRAAAAAZZYYYY....
=)
I definitely apply the Ascendance test to a lot of masters, but in the
case of Vessel, the math gets complicated if you consider how many
turns you think you'll get good use out of it, whether or not you have
plenty of blood gain to not care about the drain, whether you really
need the extra MPA, and if you think that Blood Doll popping will get
you extra VPs by removing your prey's bloat. Although the points you
make are a large part of why I've thought the rumors of BD's demise
were highly exaggerated.
aleks...@gmail.com
> If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
> instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos.
If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
gra...@hotmail.com
> a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
That costs double the MPA?
I play both Blood Dolls and Vessels in most decks, and find that there
is a place for them to coincide. The humble Blood Doll is not without
merit, and it's versatility still offers much that Vessel does not.
--> J
jason...@iinet.net.au
> And why would your prey necessarily Vessel your Blood Doll? Often,
> an excellent strategy is to let your predator bloat for a while.
Erm, like when?
Sure if he's a hair's breadth away from being ousted and your soon-to-
be predator is big trouble for you, then yeah, let him bloat.
Otherwise, you should be popping that Blood Doll without hesitation.
jase
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
> > instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos.
>
> If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
> a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
Think about that for a minute. Really. Think about it.
On what fucking planet would you put Ascendance in a deck? Oh,
right, NONE because Ascendance is TERRIBLE.
And yet here we are debating the merits of Ascendance over Vessel.
Or, shudder the thought, Vessel AND Ascendance.
If you're at the point where you're considering putting Ascendance
in your deck, SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE HEAD.
That's why Vessel sucks.
- Ben Peal
Blooded Sand
Hey Ben, i had this deck idea, you know, and it, like, uses eyes of
the dead and 6th Trad, you know, with Smudge, you know, and about 30
skill cards, you know?
Think I should put some vessels and ascendances in there? Maybe long
term investments?
headle...@gmail.com
Sounds like you'll have some handjam! Better pack some Deal with the
Devil, just in case!
suolir...@gmail.com
> aleksinu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
> > > instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos.
>
> > If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
> > a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
>
> Think about that for a minute. Really. Think about it.
I did. I'm urging you to do as much. Your arguments about Vessel have
been revolving around the pool cost. The easiest way to get around
that cost is to use that second MPA to play a card that gives you
pool. The net effect is a superior Blood Doll.
> On what fucking planet would you put Ascendance in a deck? Oh,
> right, NONE because Ascendance is TERRIBLE.
My suggestion to use Ascendance was as serious as yours were.
Realistically I'd play Dreams, Dummy Corp, Failsafe and even Slave
Auction before even considering Ascendance.
> And yet here we are debating the merits of Ascendance over Vessel.
> Or, shudder the thought, Vessel AND Ascendance.
>
> If you're at the point where you're considering putting Ascendance
> in your deck, SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE HEAD.
>
> That's why Vessel sucks.
>
> - Ben Peal
Vessel sucks because it might make a wallpaper card borderline
playable?
jwnew...@bellsouth.net
> aleksinu...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Ben Peal wrote:
> > > If it's really, really, really that bad, then play Ascendance
> > > instead of Vessel and you'll come out ahead of the Vessel weirdos.
>
> > If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
> > a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
>
> Think about that for a minute. Really. Think about it.
>
> On what fucking planet would you put Ascendance in a deck? Oh,
> right, NONE because Ascendance is TERRIBLE.
Right. So since Vessel + Ascendance is superior to Blood Doll, Vessel
+ some better master card should be better still.
-witness1
ben...@gmail.com
> > > If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
> > > a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
>
> > Think about that for a minute. Really. Think about it.
>
> I did. I'm urging you to do as much. Your arguments about Vessel have
> been revolving around the pool cost.
And the blood off of your vampire. And the time it takes to achieve
a net gain.
> The easiest way to get around that cost is to use that second MPA to
> play a card that gives you pool. The net effect is a superior Blood Doll.
No, the easiest way to get around that cost is to not play Vessel in
the first place.
> > And yet here we are debating the merits of Ascendance over Vessel.
> > Or, shudder the thought, Vessel AND Ascendance.
>
> > If you're at the point where you're considering putting Ascendance
> > in your deck, SHOOT YOURSELF IN THE HEAD.
>
> > That's why Vessel sucks.
>
> Vessel sucks because it might make a wallpaper card borderline
> playable?
Hey, I once won a tournament using Unacceptable Appearance. Dreams
can happen!
- Ben Peal
suolir...@gmail.com
> suoliruse...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > If the pool cost is such a big deal you can play Vessel+Ascendance for
> > > > a Blood Doll equivalent that doesn't get burnt.
>
> > > Think about that for a minute. Really. Think about it.
>
> > I did. I'm urging you to do as much. Your arguments about Vessel have
> > been revolving around the pool cost.
>
> And the blood off of your vampire. And the time it takes to achieve
> a net gain.
Blood Doll also takes blood off of your vampire. The pool cost of
Vessel is compensated for by an additional MPA. The fact that you can
use it during your untap phase somewhat compensates for not being able
to use it immediately. Burning Blood Dolls and not getting burned by
other Vessels swings it in favor of Vessel for most of the time.
Some decks might not get any advantage from that second MPA and in
those cases BD may well be better than Vessel but Vessel is definitely
not garbage for all other decks. If you still insist that it is I will
be more than happy to hear your rational and well thought out
arguments.
Blooded Sand
One of the most enjoyable combo's I have found for CEL rush is V&V.
Vessel gives long term gain for no cost, because Villein gives the
pool needed.
Tast, obviously for the blood for Vessel...
Rush with many minions, backed up by consistent bleeds for 3 works.....
ben...@gmail.com
> > And the blood off of your vampire. And the time it takes to achieve
> > a net gain.
>
> Blood Doll also takes blood off of your vampire. The pool cost of
> Vessel is compensated for by an additional MPA. The fact that you can
> use it during your untap phase somewhat compensates for not being able
> to use it immediately. Burning Blood Dolls and not getting burned by
> other Vessels swings it in favor of Vessel for most of the time.
Vessel being a trifle doesn't make up for the blood you're losing
off of your vampire just so you can have a net gain of 1 pool. Yeah,
Blood Doll also takes blood off of your vampire, but it's at a 1:1
ratio. The ratio with Vessel is awful and only approaches not-awful
if you play one early and survive for most of the game. As for
Vessel's ability to blow up Blood Dolls, you all know I play a lot of
V:TES and you all know I play at both the EC and NAC every year, and
my experience is that it just doesn't happen very often. Even when it
does happen, it isn't debilitating since you've already gained pool -
you're still ahead of the person playing Vessel! If at the highest
level of V:TES competition I only saw 2 of my Blood Dolls be burned
over the course of 13 games, then it seems clear to me that Vessel's
anti-Blood-Doll ability is overstated.
> Some decks might not get any advantage from that second MPA and in
> those cases BD may well be better than Vessel but Vessel is definitely
> not garbage for all other decks. If you still insist that it is I will
> be more than happy to hear your rational and well thought out
> arguments.
Bah. Let's settle it on the field of battle! :)
- Ben Peal
suolir...@gmail.com
> suoliruse...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > And the blood off of your vampire. And the time it takes to achieve
> > > a net gain.
>
> > Blood Doll also takes blood off of your vampire. The pool cost of
> > Vessel is compensated for by an additional MPA. The fact that you can
> > use it during your untap phase somewhat compensates for not being able
> > to use it immediately. Burning Blood Dolls and not getting burned by
> > other Vessels swings it in favor of Vessel for most of the time.
>
> Vessel being a trifle doesn't make up for the blood you're losing
> off of your vampire just so you can have a net gain of 1 pool.
Unless that second master is a Perfectionist. You should try a low/mid-
cap bruiser deck with 6 Vessels and Perfectionists, good stuff.
> Yeah,
> Blood Doll also takes blood off of your vampire, but it's at a 1:1
> ratio. The ratio with Vessel is awful and only approaches not-awful
> if you play one early and survive for most of the game. As for
> Vessel's ability to blow up Blood Dolls, you all know I play a lot of
> V:TES and you all know I play at both the EC and NAC every year, and
> my experience is that it just doesn't happen very often. Even when it
> does happen, it isn't debilitating since you've already gained pool -
> you're still ahead of the person playing Vessel! If at the highest
> level of V:TES competition I only saw 2 of my Blood Dolls be burned
> over the course of 13 games, then it seems clear to me that Vessel's
> anti-Blood-Doll ability is overstated.
Your mileage clearly varies from mine, then. If Blood Dolls don't get
burned they are usually better than Vessels. It's just that around
here they last about two turns.