TWD Then there'll be a light - Gelsenkirchen
chromeboy
Gelsenkirchen this Sunday, 21.Feb.2010
Decks were ( in no particular order):
Malkavian G1/2 Vote
!Ventrue Dom/for Bleed
Mixed Crypt w/ Dom/Obf and Inceptor Goodies
Weenie Computer Hacking
Girls will find inner peace (version)
Setite Multiact with some Dom
Brujah Princes Vote and Bruise
!Tori Undue Influence Palla Grande
Ashur Madness Rush Ani/Pot
Kyasid S&B
2 Decks I didn't see
Finals were
3vp, GW Ashur Madness Rush Ani/Pot ->
!Ventrue Dom/for Bleed ->
2vp !Tori Undue Influence Palla Grande ->
Mixed Crypt w/ Dom/Obf and Inceptor Goodies
Malkavian G1/2 Vote
Deck Name: Wax on, Wax off
Created By: Martin Schumacher
Description:
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 27, Max: 36, Avg: 7,91)
----------------------------------------------
4 Nana Buruku ANI POT PRE 8 Guruhi
1 Mateusz Gryzbowsky ANI OBF POT 8 Nosferatu
Antitribu
1 Fish pre ANI POT 5 Guruhi
1 Sundown ANI POT obf pre6 Nosferatu
3 Nangila Were obf ser ANI POT PRE9 Guruhi
1 Lukas pre ser ANI OBF POT8
Nosferatu Antitribu
1 Ellison Humboldt ANI OBF POT PRE pro9
Nosferatu
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (36 cards)
18 Ashur Tablets
7 Liquidation
4 Blood Doll
1 Mbare Market, Harare
1 Effective Management
1 Fame
1 Pentex Subversion
1 Brothers Grimm
1 Parthenon, The
1 Giant`s Blood
Action (16 cards)
4 Deep Song
4 Bum`s Rush
5 Legal Manipulations
3 Heroic Might
Combat (38 cards)
7 Carrion Crows
7 Torn Signpost
7 Slam
7 Immortal Grapple
5 Taste of Vitae
3 Burning Wrath
2 Canine Horde
This deck was last saved at 21:06:05 on 21.02.2010
extrala
> 12 players played the Mini-qualifier "Then there'll be a light" at
> Gelsenkirchen this Sunday, 21.Feb.2010
>
Another, well deserved victory for the Guruhi!! Congratulations!
Ashur Tablets are ba-roken..
Best regards, Ralf
====================
http://extrala.blogspot.com
Peter D Bakija
> Ashur Tablets are ba-roken..
Realizing that this is just snark/comedy, but do you really think
Ashur Tablets are too good? I mean, they are certainly good. But too
good?
-Peter
extrala
Yeah, you got me. ;)
No, I don't think it's too good, since it requires a special setup
(two master phase actions minium) to make it work in the extreme way
the deck above has shown. And this usually means a vampire granting a
second MPA, since Parthenon or Rumors of Gehenna are not really fast
enough or that reliable.
But after seeing the deck in action, I wish there were more ways to
interact (= remove cards from game) with the ashheap of other players
other than Trochomancy or the (rather weak) Victim of Habit. Or an
Event (Gehenna perhaps) that would make you pay 1 pool for each master
phase action after the first. This would leave trifle effect &
"normal" MPA in place, but punish the 2+ MPAs a bit.
Best regards, Ralf
==================
http://extrala.blogspot.com
Izaak
"extrala" <ralf.l...@gmx.de> schreef in bericht
news:cba79282-9e28-4da9...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Interesting thoughts.
I can see the Liquidation // Ashur tech being crazy bloat allowing you to
play a bit more careless with your rushes. Aside from the poolgain tech with
Liquidation, I don't see the added value of 18 Ashur Tablets. This combo has
been around since Ashur was printed and seems to be all Ashur is used for.
Rather unfortunate, as it has a great opportunity to help toolboxy decks get
the right cards at the right time instead of providing focused decks with a
"fire and forget" bloat module. In this case, you might as well have played
25 less masters and upped the combat/ousting angle accordingly. Unless
gaining ~12 pool from Liquidation Ashur tech over the course of the game
played a HUGE role in its victory of course.
But, if I look at the deck it has no bounce, no intercept and no real
ousting mechanism other than a few Legal Manipulations. I mean, sure you can
cycle all sort of tech back into your library depending on what you need but
it's still a 90 card deck so even wtih all the cycle tech in the world you
won't have a perfect hand every time. 7 Grapples in 90 still means you're
going to miss one every other combat and with very few rushes and no real
bleed threat, a predator with the right deck can mostly ignore it. The
combat can't do anything vs maneuvers or fortitude prevent either (or
aggropoke for that matter) so it's really just "grapple with crows with no
way to untap or really bleed hard" and as we all know, that has been around
forever.
Sure, the deck won a tournament so I'm sure it's a solid deck and it was
played well, but metagame might have played a huge role in its victory.
Janne Hägglund
Err, no.
It's just one way of using Ashurs. Usually they're used to shrink the size
of a toolbox deck, while picking up needed tech from the ash heap, therefore
improving card flow in two different ways. The pool gain is just an added
bonus in that case.
The Liquidation/Ashur combo, on the other hand, is more about serious
bloating, with the better card flow as a bonus.
> Rather unfortunate, as it has a great opportunity to help toolboxy decks get
> the right cards at the right time instead of providing focused decks with a
> "fire and forget" bloat module. In this case, you might as well have played
> 25 less masters and upped the combat/ousting angle accordingly. Unless
> gaining ~12 pool from Liquidation Ashur tech over the course of the game
> played a HUGE role in its victory of course.
>
> But, if I look at the deck it has no bounce, no intercept and no real
> ousting mechanism other than a few Legal Manipulations.
5 Legal Manipulations and 4 Deep Songs. Which will be cycled into hand over
and over and over again. Bounce is not needed, since it can rush the most
obnoxious bleeders and out-bloat the rest.
> I mean, sure you can
> cycle all sort of tech back into your library depending on what you need but
> it's still a 90 card deck so even wtih all the cycle tech in the world you
> won't have a perfect hand every time. 7 Grapples in 90 still means you're
> going to miss one every other combat and with very few rushes and no real
> bleed threat, a predator with the right deck can mostly ignore it.
It has 8 rush cards, and 18 Ashur Tablets. That's *plenty* of rush.
Besides, you didn't notice the special ability of the co-star, Nangila Were:
"Nangila may enter combat with a minion controlled by another Methuselah as
a (D) action. While Nangila is ready, your hand size is one card larger."
> The combat can't do anything vs maneuvers
It has two counters against maneuvers: Crows + Slam + Grapple, but if that's
not enough, then Crows + 2R from Heroic Might.
> or fortitude prevent either (or
> aggropoke for that matter) so it's really just "grapple with crows with no
> way to untap or really bleed hard" and as we all know, that has been around
> forever.
>
> Sure, the deck won a tournament so I'm sure it's a solid deck and it was
> played well, but metagame might have played a huge role in its victory.
HG
extrala
> "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> writes:
> ...
> > I can see the Liquidation // Ashur tech being crazy bloat allowing you to
> > play a bit more careless with your rushes. Aside from the poolgain tech with
> > Liquidation, I don't see the added value of 18 Ashur Tablets. This combo has
> > been around since Ashur was printed and seems to be all Ashur is used for.
>
> Err, no.
>
> It's just one way of using Ashurs. Usually they're used to shrink the size
> of a toolbox deck, while picking up needed tech from the ash heap, therefore
> improving card flow in two different ways. The pool gain is just an added
> bonus in that case.
>
> The Liquidation/Ashur combo, on the other hand, is more about serious
> bloating, with the better card flow as a bonus.
>
> > Rather unfortunate, as it has a great opportunity to help toolboxy decks get
> > the right cards at the right time instead of providing focused decks with a
> > "fire and forget" bloat module. In this case, you might as well have played
> > 25 less masters and upped the combat/ousting angle accordingly. Unless
> > gaining ~12 pool from Liquidation Ashur tech over the course of the game
> > played a HUGE role in its victory of course.
>
> > But, if I look at the deck it has no bounce, no intercept and no real
> > ousting mechanism other than a few Legal Manipulations.
>
> 5 Legal Manipulations and 4 Deep Songs. Which will be cycled into hand over
> and over and over again. Bounce is not needed, since it can rush the most
> obnoxious bleeders and out-bloat the rest.
Janne, perfect analysis, that really sums it up.
Salem
> But after seeing the deck in action, I wish there were more ways to
> interact (= remove cards from game) with the ashheap of other players
> other than Trochomancy or the (rather weak) Victim of Habit. Or an
> Event (Gehenna perhaps) that would make you pay 1 pool for each master
> phase action after the first. This would leave trifle effect &
> "normal" MPA in place, but punish the 2+ MPAs a bit.
But trifles use a full master phase action, and then grant you a second
master phase action if it was the first trifle played in a turn. so it
would still hit the 'free mpa' trifle effect.
--
salem
Izaak
> It's just one way of using Ashurs. Usually they're used to shrink the
> size
> of a toolbox deck, while picking up needed tech from the ash heap,
> therefore
> improving card flow in two different ways. The pool gain is just an added
> bonus in that case.
You are missing the point. The 18 Ashur's might as well have been 10 more
deep songs and 5 more Legal Manipulations and it wouldn't change the deck in
any significant way.
Running 18 Ashur's in 90 cards will, even with Liquidation tech, not really
improve your cardflow simply because it's 90 cards. So you Liquidate 7 cards
into your ashpile, play 6 or so over the course of 2 turns and then use
Ashur to cycle up to 13 of them back with the added bonus of pool and one
card in your hand. Other than the one card in your hard, your deck is now
back to what it was with maybe very slightly different ratio's, but since
it's still in 90 cards it will not be really noticable until you have fired
off 3-4 Ashur's. So all you really did is spend 4 MPA's to gain 6 pool and
put a card in your hand. This is not a bad thing, nobody is saying that, but
IMO it shoots well past the intended use for Ashur tablets.
Again, the deck won a tournament so surely it's good, but to jump in and say
(paraphrased) "the deck won because Ashur and dual master phase is
borderline overpowered" is just wrong.
Janne Hägglund
No, *you* are missing the point.
Playing with just Ashurs is *very* different from playing with Liquidations
and Ashurs. Like I said, the former is about card flow plus some extra
bloat, while the latter is about *massive* bloat with some added card flow.
Ashur + Liquidation tech is *not* like pure Ashur tech. They are two
different animals.
You're assuming one Liquidation played, immediately followed by three Ashurs.
That's not the way it works. You want to Liquidate, Liquidate, Liquidate,
and to start Ashuring cards back only when you're running out of cards, or
really need that one card in your hand right now. Playing three Ashurs right
after just one Liquidation would be either crappy play, or evidence of a hand
jam. (Or a Jedi Mind trick, to lull your opponents into believing you've run
out of Liquidations...)
You should play with (or against) a Liquidation + Ashur deck sometime. You'd
see the points I made validated right away.
HG
extrala
> > Err, no.
> > It's just one way of using Ashurs. Usually they're used to shrink the
> > size
> > of a toolbox deck, while picking up needed tech from the ash heap,
> > therefore
> > improving card flow in two different ways. The pool gain is just an added
> > bonus in that case.
>
> You are missing the point. The 18 Ashur's might as well have been 10 more
> deep songs and 5 more Legal Manipulations and it wouldn't change the deck in
> any significant way.
>
> Running 18 Ashur's in 90 cards will, even with Liquidation tech, not really
> improve your cardflow simply because it's 90 cards. So you Liquidate 7 cards
> into your ashpile, play 6 or so over the course of 2 turns and then use
> Ashur to cycle up to 13 of them back with the added bonus of pool and one
> card in your hand. Other than the one card in your hard, your deck is now
> back to what it was with maybe very slightly different ratio's, but since
> it's still in 90 cards it will not be really noticable until you have fired
> off 3-4 Ashur's. So all you really did is spend 4 MPA's to gain 6 pool and
> put a card in your hand. This is not a bad thing, nobody is saying that, but
> IMO it shoots well past the intended use for Ashur tablets.
1. the deck usually rushes 2 times a turn (Naglia Were + Deep Song/
Bums Rush)
2. in the combat the vampire usually plays 3-5 cards (Carrion Crows +
Torn Signpost + Grapple + Slam/Burning Wrath)
3. the deck plays 2-3 master cards each turn (depending on if the
Parthenon is out).
4. uses Liquidation once (or sometimes even twice) in two turns
5. AT gets back 13 cards (at max.) and one is moved back to the hand,
and then discard down. So effectively only 12 cards are retrieved.
So in 2 turns (mid/endgame) the deck plays
1. about 2 rush cards,
2. about 16 cards (2 turns * 2 minions * 4 combat cards),
3. about 4 masters,
4. discards 7 cards, and
5. retrieves 12 cards (13 - minus required discard)
So in total your down approx. 17 cards in two turns. And that changes
the odds of getting the cards you want. Even more so when the game
progresses. And as Janne already pointed out, in the beginning you're
more keen on discarding cards via Liquidation, and in the mid- and
endgame you're more likely to play/use Ashurs.
And you shouldn't underestimate that you get the one card you need
back into your hand via AT *and* that the deck has a handsize of 9
thanks to Naglia Were's and Nana's special abilities. So it often
needs just one card (e.g. the rush or the grapple) to make it to a
"perfect" hand.
> Again, the deck won a tournament so surely it's good, but to jump in and say
> (paraphrased) "the deck won because Ashur and dual master phase is
> borderline overpowered" is just wrong.
"Ba-roken" maybe was a too strong word, but the deck is borderline
overpowered. As pointed out earlier I don't think it's broken, because
it requires certain vampires
If you haven't played or seen the deck in this deck, I would really
recommend building/playing it. For sure, it is not unbeatable. Aggro
Poke kills it, Banishment can kill it, it has problems if pressured
earlier on, etc.But with conventional means like bleed or vote, it's
rather hard to oust.
Izaak
> You're assuming one Liquidation played, immediately followed by three
> Ashurs.
> That's not the way it works. You want to Liquidate, Liquidate, Liquidate,
> and to start Ashuring cards back only when you're running out of cards,
And what will you do with the 5 Ashur Tablets clogging your hand then?
Janne Hägglund
1. Discard phase actions.
2. If I don't have anough discards, then I play Liquidation, Ashur,
Liquidation, Ashur, Liquidation, Ashur, Ashur, Liquidation... as needed.
HG