TWD & FD's - EC 2009: Day 2
Damnans
Event Name: EUROPEAN VTES CHAMPIONSHIP 2009 (DAY 2)
Event Date (DD-MON-YY): 15/ nov 09
Coordinator: Gin�s Qui�onero Santiago
City: Palma de Mallorca (Spain)
Format (Constructed/Limited): Constructed
Level (Normal/Qualifier/Championship) Championship
Number of Players: 40
Head Judge: Gin�s Qui�onero Santiago
Assistant Judges: L. Scott Johnson, Oscar J. Garza III
WINNING DECK (EUROPEAN CHAMPION)
============
Deck Name: Jost on Vacation
Author: Walter Paolini (Played by Martin Weinmayer)
Crypt:[12]
3x Jost Werner
1x Sheila Mezarin
1x Remilliard
1x Lolita
1x Angela Preston
1x Gideon Fontaine
1x Isabel de Leon
1x Roland Loussarian
1x Jazz Wentworth
1x Mariana Gilbert
Library:[80]
Action:[17]
5x Enchant Kindred
4x Art Scam
4x Entrancement
4x Intimidation
Action Modifier:[13]
8x Aire of Elation
3x Daring the Dawn
2x Change of Target
Combat:[11]
7x Majesty
4x Force of Personality
Reaction:[24]
8x Telepathic Misdirection
4x My Enemy�s Enemy
6x Wake with Evenening�s Freshness
4x On the Qui Vive
2x Delaying Tactics
Event:[1]
1x The Uncoiling
Master:[14]
3x Dreams of the Sphinx
2x Misdirection
2x Jake Washington
2x Anarch Trouble Maker
2x Direct Intervention
2x Pentex Subversion
1x Giant�s Blood
FINALIST DECKS
==============
Deck Name: Catch me if you can! (EC 2009 Day 2 Finalist)
Author: Christophe Baltazar
Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=2 max=8 avg=6.67)
===============================================
2x Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit 7 ani cel OBF POT !Nosferatu:2
2x Constanza Vinti 8 CEL DOM POT Brujah:2
3x D�nal O'Connor 8 CEL DOM POT Brujah:2
1x Lupo 2 pot Brujah:1
2x Theo Bell 7 cel dom pre POT Brujah:2
2x Volker, The Puppet Prince 5 pot CEL Brujah:2
Library (90 cards)
==================
Master (14)
1x Carver's Meat Packing and Storage
1x Erciyes Fragments, The
2x Fame
1x New Carthage
2x Pentex(TM) Subversion
1x Powerbase: Montreal
1x Smiling Jack, The Anarch
1x Tension in the Ranks
2x Vessel
2x Wash
Action (9)
7x Govern the Unaligned
2x Heroic Might
Political Action (3)
3x Parity Shift
Reaction (21)
6x Deflection
3x On the Qui Vive
9x Second Tradition: Domain
3x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Combat (35)
7x Blur
5x Earthshock
7x Immortal Grapple
8x Taste of Vitae
8x Torn Signpost
Combo (8)
4x Murmur of the False Will
4x Resist Earth's Grasp
Deck Name: Poesia en movimiento
Created By: Joaquim Miquel Cuesta (Quim)
Description: Taca Taca
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 28, Avg: 4,5)
--------------------------------------------
3 Beast ani cel OBF POT 7 Nosferatu
Antitribu
3 Theo Bell cel dom pre POT 7 Brujah
2 Jimmy Dunn for CEL POT 4 Pander
4 Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (18 cards)
1 Blood Turnip
3 Anarch Revolt
1 Fame
2 Tension in the Ranks
2 Wash
2 Vessel
4 Fortitude
3 Villein
Combat (71 cards)
6 Improvised Tactics
15 Diversion
4 Slam
3 Pulled Fangs
9 Torn Signpost
8 Taste of Vitae
4 Increased Strength
4 Undead Strength
10 Immortal Grapple
8 Flash
Event (1 cards)
1 Dragonbound
Deck Name: Toreador AAA (EC 2009 Day 2 Finalist)
Author: Kamel Senni
Crypt (13 cards; Capacity min=3 max=11 avg=7.92)
================================================
2x Alexandra 11 dom ANI AUS CEL PRE Toreador:2
2x Anneke 10 dom AUS CEL PRE Toreador:1
5x Anson 8 aus dom CEL PRE Toreador:1
1x Dorian Strack 4 cel AUS Toreador:1
1x Fran�ois Villon 10 chi obf pot AUS CEL PRE Toreador:2
1x Isabel de Leon 3 AUS Toreador:2
1x Mariana Gilbert 4 cel PRE Toreador:1
Library (90 cards)
==================
Master (46)
3x Blind Spot
1x Coven, The
5x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Giant's Blood
1x Golconda: Inner Peace
3x Information Highway
2x Jake Washington (Hunter)
1x Legendary Vampire
9x Minion Tap
2x Parthenon, The
2x Pentex(TM) Subversion
2x Protected Resources
1x Temptation of Greater Power
7x Toreador Grand Ball
6x Zillah's Valley
Event (2)
2x Anthelios, The Red Star
Political Action (20)
2x Anarchist Uprising
1x Ancient Influence
2x Ancilla Empowerment
3x Banishment
1x Neonate Breach
9x Parity Shift
1x Political Stranglehold
1x Reins of Power
Ally (1)
1x Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
Action Modifier (16)
6x Aire of Elation
5x Approximation of Loyalty
5x Voter Captivation
Reaction (5)
2x Eyes of Argus
3x Telepathic Misdirection
Deck Name: Stanislava FTW! (EC 2009 Day 2 Finalist)
Author: Erol �ng�n
Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=1 max=11 avg=9.08)
================================================
1x Anarch Convert 1 -none- Caitiff:ANY
2x Beckett ADV 8 cel tha ANI FOR PRO Gangrel:3
2x Genevieve 10 aus dom ANI FOR PRO !Gangrel:2
1x Hartmut Stover 10 dom for CEL OBF PRO !Gangrel:3
2x Ingrid Rossler 9 dom ANI FOR PRO Gangrel:2
4x Stanislava 11 ANI CEL DOM FOR PRO Gangrel:2
Library (90 cards)
==================
Master (20)
1x Backways
1x Coven, The
1x Dark Influences
1x Dominate
2x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Ecoterrorists
1x Giant's Blood
1x Golconda: Inner Peace
1x Information Highway
1x Jake Washington (Hunter)
1x Monastery of Shadows
1x Pentex(TM) Subversion
5x Villein
2x Wash
Event (7)
1x Anthelios, The Red Star
1x Blood Trade
1x Break the Code
1x Nightmares upon Nightmares
1x Restricted Vitae
1x Rise of the Nephtali
1x Thirst
Action (8)
8x Govern the Unaligned
Political Action (12)
1x Ancient Influence
1x Banishment
1x Domain Challenge
4x Honor the Elders
2x Kine Resources Contested
1x Neonate Breach
1x Political Stranglehold
1x Reins of Power
Equipment (2)
1x Heart of Nizchetus
1x Seal of Veddartha
Action Modifier (17)
2x Conditioning
7x Earth Control
2x Enkil Cog
3x Forced March
3x Freak Drive
Reaction (13)
9x Deflection
2x Guard Dogs
2x Obedience
Combat (11)
11x Form of Mist
FINAL STANDINGS
===============
Final Rank Name Prelim GWs Prelim VPs Final VPs TPs
1 Martin Weinmayer 1 7 3 132
2 Joaquim Miquel Cuesta 1 6,5 1 168
2 Kamel Senni 1 5 1 150
2 Christophe Baltazar 1 5,5 0 138
2 Erol �ng�n 2 7 0 150
6 Antonio Cobo Cuenca 1 5 150
7 I�aki Jim�nez 1 5 126
7 Jakob Sievers 1 5 126
9 Alessandro Donati 1 4,5 126
10 Danilo Torrisi 1 3 114
11 Ferenc Vasadi 1 3 108
12 Daniel Padrol 1 3 102
12 Adam Esbj�rnsson 1 3 102
12 Jakob Hrb�cek 1 3 102
12 Hugh Angseesing 1 3 102
16 Dimitri Beuste 1 2,5 96
17 Tom�s L�pez Jim�nez 0 3,5 126
18 Gerome Goyet 0 3 102
19 Jakub Baran'ski 0 2,5 126
20 Txus Al�tiz 0 2,5 114
21 Joscha D�ll 0 2,5 108
22 Johannes Walch 0 2 120
22 Are Vaskela 0 2 120
24 David J. Tatu 0 1,5 102
24 Roger Carhult 0 1,5 102
24 Franck Bernard 0 1,5 102
24 Erik L�f 0 1,5 102
28 Mikkel Petersen 0 1,5 96
28 Yoann Guyader 0 1,5 96
28 C�sar Ruip�rez 0 1,5 96
31 Pascal Bertrand 0 1 96
31 Eneko Oribe 0 1 96
33 Robin Proch�zka 0 1 90
34 Olivier Roure 0 0,5 84
34 Benoit Moyen 0 0,5 84
34 Teresa Neves 0 0,5 84
37 Timo Rekola 0 0,5 78
38 Philippe Lang 0 0 72
38 Alejandro P�rez 0 0 72
40 Vincent Ripoll 0 0 60
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
The Lasombra
> VTES EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIP 2009: Palma de Mallorca
> Event Name: EUROPEAN VTES CHAMPIONSHIP 2009 (DAY 2)
> FINALIST DECKS
> ==============
> Deck Name: Catch me if you can! (EC 2009 Day 2 Finalist)
> Author: Christophe Baltazar
> Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=2 max=8 avg=6.67)
> ===============================================
> 2x Beast, The Leatherface of Detroit 7 ani cel OBF POT !Nosferatu:2
> 2x Theo Bell 7 cel dom pre POT Brujah:2
> Deck Name: Poesia en movimiento
> Created By: Joaquim Miquel Cuesta (Quim)
> Description: Taca Taca
> Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 4, Max: 28, Avg: 4,5)
> --------------------------------------------
> 3 Beast ani cel OBF POT 7 Nosferatu Antitribu
> 3 Theo Bell cel dom pre POT 7 Brujah
Two more decks in a finals with a strong resemblance to the other
one's crypt.
Which one got Beast? Which one got Theo?
How did they work it out?
How did the players avoid losing their 7 pool investments?
Did contesting lead to Christophe's ousting and Joaquim's victory
point?
Joscha
As far as I saw Christophe had neither Theo nor Beast in his starting
crypt and he didn't had the time to search for one. So there where no
contest during the game.
Brum
There is film footage of the Finals.
Ginés: great work.
Once again, congratulations on a great organization.
Tiago
Johannes Walch
Correct. He had Volker, Donal + Constanza + some weenie.
Joaquim had Beast and Theo.
Chlorix
It strikes me that (yet again) nearly every deck in all the finals of
the EC 2009 had either lots of Deflections or Telepathic
Misdirections.
I think the game would improve when also some other disciplines would
get decent bounce possibilities. And of course Lost in Translation was
being played, but it is still a corner case card.
Furthermore it would help if there were more anti-bounce cards
available for a lot of disciplines. This to prevent that one would
become a sinkhole of bleeds, just because he or she doesn't play AUS
or DOM. Think of Touch of Clarity (which should have been a common
btw).
We saw this discussion already some months ago on this forum. Time and
time again it is proven that it IS a problem. (Oh, and i'm sick and
tired of the argument that "the game is good as it is", the fact that
there is much discussion indicates that there is room for
improvement).
H
Kushiel
> Furthermore it would help if there were more anti-bounce cards
> available for a lot of disciplines. This to prevent that one would
> become a sinkhole of bleeds, just because he or she doesn't play AUS
> or DOM. Think of Touch of Clarity (which should have been a common
> btw).
More anti-bounce means that stealth/bleed gets better. Is that what
you're advocating here?
John Eno
Chlorix
Not at all. The anti-bounce cards should be a reaction to the new
bounce cards for other disciplines (if any). More bounce doesn't help
stealh/bleed.
New bounce cards (or anti bounce cards) for other disciplines could
also include new twists, like a bounce that gives -1 intercept to the
acting minion for example.
The stealth/bleed discussion should be handled separatly. The game
doesn't have many bleed punishment cards (like Archon or Retribution),
it seems that this is done intensionally. I don't think bounce is the
way to address the stealth/bleed issue in general. That bleed will
still land somewhere if it is being bounced.
H
Chlorix
> New bounce cards (or anti bounce cards) for other disciplines could
> also include new twists, like a bounce that gives -1 intercept to the
> acting minion for example.
I obviously answered too quickly. Should be -1 stealth of course.
H
Izaak
> The stealth/bleed discussion should be handled separatly. The game
> doesn't have many bleed punishment cards (like Archon or Retribution),
> it seems that this is done intensionally. I don't think bounce is the
> way to address the stealth/bleed issue in general. That bleed will
> still land somewhere if it is being bounced.
Adding anti-bounce to the game would make bouncing less reliable.
That in turn would make bleeds more likely to land on their target, which
makes S/B stronger.
Chlorix
Lets try to do this again.
Bouncing is a very good defence against bleeds (the best in fact,
because you can also hurt your prey).
Unfortunately decent bounce is only available for Dominate and Auspex.
Therefore a lot of decks contain Dominate or Auspex, just for the
bounce ability. A lot of decks have out of clan discipline bounce
modules incorporated.
If more disciplines would have playable bounce abilities, the variety
of decks would probably increase. The standard DOM/AUS bounce modules
wouldn't be needed as much anymore.
This is the point a wanted to make.
However when you add possibilities to bounce, it should be compensated
by anti-bounce tech.
Will S/B become better? That depends on the cards that are designed. I
already gave the example of the bounce that could reduce the stealth
of the acting vampire. It is also possible to design anti-bounce cards
that not only cancel the bounce but also reduce the stealth of the
acting vampire.
It is too easy to say that anti-bounce cards will help S/B in such a
way that it gets too strong.
My personal opinion in a general sense is that bounce is not the
answer to Stealth Bleed. The answer to that are bleed punishers (like
Archon). But the fact is that there are almost no bleed punishment
cards available in the game, which suggests that the designers do not
want to go that way.
H
suoli
> However when you add possibilities to bounce, it should be compensated
> by anti-bounce tech.
The tech already exists. Two Wrongs, Terra Incognita, Narrow Minds,
Revelations, Shattering, Precision, Change of Target, Spying Mission,
Tangle Atropos' Hand and Perfect Clarity give anti-bounce to a pretty
good range of deck types. Most of them aren't as easy to use
successfully as Touch of Clarity but I don't see why they should be.
S&B could do with a little bit of challenge when it comes to deck
building.
> Will S/B become better? That depends on the cards that are designed. I
> already gave the example of the bounce that could reduce the stealth
> of the acting vampire. It is also possible to design anti-bounce cards
> that not only cancel the bounce but also reduce the stealth of the
> acting vampire.
>
> It is too easy to say that anti-bounce cards will help S/B in such a
> way that it gets too strong.
>
> My personal opinion in a general sense is that bounce is not the
> answer to Stealth Bleed. The answer to that are bleed punishers (like
> Archon). But the fact is that there are almost no bleed punishment
> cards available in the game, which suggests that the designers do not
> want to go that way.
>
> H
Shemti, Keller Thiel, Touch of Pain and Familial Bond, all relatively
recent. I would also argue that excessive bleed punishment leads to
static games. If you're afraid of bounce you can often still bleed for
ones without any big risk. If you're afraid of going to torpor it's
better to sit than bleed and take a permanent loss.
Izaak
"Chlorix" <Chl...@xs4all.nl> schreef in bericht
news:15716cbe-108b-4ea4...@u20g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 dec, 01:29, "Izaak" <nom...@usenet.plz> wrote:
>> > The stealth/bleed discussion should be handled separatly. The game
>> > doesn't have many bleed punishment cards (like Archon or Retribution),
>> > it seems that this is done intensionally. I don't think bounce is the
>> > way to address the stealth/bleed issue in general. That bleed will
>> > still land somewhere if it is being bounced.
>>
>> Adding anti-bounce to the game would make bouncing less reliable.
>> That in turn would make bleeds more likely to land on their target, which
>> makes S/B stronger.
>
> Lets try to do this again.
>
> Bouncing is a very good defence against bleeds (the best in fact,
> because you can also hurt your prey).
Exactly. And by making more anti-bounce the best defense against S/B will be
weaker. Ergo, S/B gets stronger.
> Unfortunately decent bounce is only available for Dominate and Auspex.
> Therefore a lot of decks contain Dominate or Auspex, just for the
> bounce ability. A lot of decks have out of clan discipline bounce
> modules incorporated.
Oh sure, I agree. More often than not when driving home from a unsuccessfull
tournament I say to myself "silly me for not packing deflections"
A few expansions back (around Black Hand I guess), the design intent seemed
to be to add more intercept options to the game to bleeders could be blocked
more easily. Of course this would lead to more combat, which was a
well-desired side effect since combat needed to be stronger. From
experience, the design team knew that "only usable against bleeds" would
wallpaper such a card, so most 'newer' intercept cards are usable without
restrictions (think Sonar, Sense the Savage Way, Rooftop Shadow). The
problem here was that adding all that intercept hurt non-bleed decks more
than bleed decks. Ally decks and vote decks were forced to craft all sorts
of stealth into their decks, similar to how we now force dominate into our
crypts. I guess this is why cards like Mirror Walk and Resist Earth's Grasp
were printed.
> If more disciplines would have playable bounce abilities, the variety
> of decks would probably increase. The standard DOM/AUS bounce modules
> wouldn't be needed as much anymore.
Deck variety is quite fine as it is. Not everyone plays dom or AUS. Sure, in
bigger tournaments you kinda need it to have a shot at victory, but this is
just because you need to build a tier1 deck to win something like the EC. If
there was more bounce around, bleed might not be tier1 anymore and the meta
might shift to, say, potence rush which gets countered pretty hardcore by
fortitude and celerity. Do we then make posts "presence needs a maneuver"?
> This is the point a wanted to make.
>
> However when you add possibilities to bounce, it should be compensated
> by anti-bounce tech.
As noted before, anti-bounce tech already exists. It's just not too easy to
craft into a straightforward bleed deck so most bleed decks just ignore it
and go for more payload. A prey only has so many deflections.
> My personal opinion in a general sense is that bounce is not the
> answer to Stealth Bleed. The answer to that are bleed punishers (like
> Archon). But the fact is that there are almost no bleed punishment
> cards available in the game, which suggests that the designers do not
> want to go that way.
Also as noted, bleed punishment is slowly making its way into the game. The
problem I have with cards like Touch of Pain is that they are entirely
useless if you're not being bled. I mean, the vote thing is cute, but
really, what vote deck is really hurt by taking two damage on a minion? And
to add insult to injury it costs you a blood as well! If bleed punishment
was to be more common, it would need to be usable when you don't have a
bleeding predator either, preferably hurt my prey. If Touch of Pain inferior
would say "+1 bleed" that'd be immensely helpful and would move the card
from "cute for a trick deck with Shemti" to "wow I have to find room for
this in my pot/ani rush deck".
Chlorix
disciplines, which was what this was all about.
However the moment the word anti-bounce is being used (even as a side
effect) reactions are being given. Probably this is due to Touch of
Pain, which was awarded to a bleed discipline.
The irony of course is that bounce is also some kind of anti-bounce.
But since people have problems with it, i won't mention anti-bounce
again, because it was not what this was all about.
It really depends on which discipline you want to give bounce. In
general bounce shouldn't be given to disciplines that are easily
combined with DOM or AUS. Examples are Thaumaturgy (Tremere & !Tremere
have already DOM and AUS as in clan disciplines), Obtenebration
(Lasombra have DOM), Necromancy (Giovanni have DOM) or Dementation
(Malk & !Malk have AUS).
Furthermore it seems not appropriate to give bleed & vote disciplines
access to bounce. Think about Presence and Serpentis.
Maybe disciplines like Protean, Animalism and Chimerstry would be good
candidates. Just brainstorming here.
H
Kushiel
> It is also possible to design anti-bounce cards
> that not only cancel the bounce but also reduce the stealth of the
> acting vampire.
Such cards would also need to create a new window for blocking, since
cancelling a bleed bounce normally means that the window for blocking
is already closed and no more block attempts may be made, meaning that
reducing the stealth of the acting vampire is probably moot at that
point.
John Eno
Lönkka
> It seems that nobody is really against more bounce for other
> disciplines, which was what this was all about.
I'm not really sure that every or even most disciplines should be able
to do everything.
So I'm opposed to reckless handing out bounce.
PERHAPS with suitable drawbacks it might conservatively be done for an
addtional discipline or two.
If you want non Aus/Dom vamps to use bounce, use big caps which can
both use and pay for Lost in Translation.
Cheers,
Janne / Lönkka
berlin...@gmail.com
That was a very long time ago but i only discover that post ^^
At this final round, i (christophe) had no theo/beast in my starting crypt.
I tried to look for any one of those 2 during 3 or 4 turns but i was very unlucky . Beast and Theo were hiding at the bottom of my crypt :/
If i was able to contest, it would have been easier either for me to oust Joaquim, either for Kamel to oust Martin ... cuz with only one rushing guy ... ;)