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The Discard Phase

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shsoton

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
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The discard phase.

I think there is a point in all quality players development when you realise
that all resources are expendable. The vastly expensive powervamp you have
just squeezed out, the last pool and yes even that Ascendance you have been
hoarding for a rainy day. etc. etc. yada yada

Cards in your hand and permanents on the table are the two most obvious
assets you have at any given point in a game. It is all too easy keeping
hold of a few cards that 'would be useful later on'. I think it is much
better to make the hard choice and pick a card to bin that is less useful
than the others. Easy to say but hard to do if you have a good hand. In
general though, I think that the discard phase is underused.

Something I find essential to continued success is pred/prey and general
table analysis. If you look at the decks others are playing and make an
assessment based on disciplines on table, play styles, game so far etc. you
can almost always find a card that is expendable. Following on from this is
the bloody tedious probability game. In simple terms - If I throw this card
away what is the chance of picking up # card that I need NOW. During a
competitive game I try to recall what has already gone, numbers of cards
included and the 'best' way to use cards.

Unless trying to impress, intimidate or cycle, always go for the most
efficient solution available. I find this simple exercise leaves you with
resources available to deal with most situations.

James Coupe said an interesting thing a couple of weeks ago (yes it does
happen) - "The person seeing the most cards in a game is most likely to win"

Mmmmmm much chin rubbing and mechanic style intake of breath. I agree to a
certain extent but it is not that simple. Quantity is only a part of the
whole equation. To quote a cheesy line, Power is nought without control -
use your plethora of resources don't waste them.

Any thoughts ??


Rob T
(Still hungover from Saturday. Bastard Newcastle Brown Ale)

pallando

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
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this is an interesting thread. i think james' sentence should be adjusted to
"The person seeing the most cards in a game is most likely to win", if
everybody plays the same deck.
now of course i do not mean that evryone should play the same deck or
something like that. i just want to point out that of two people playing the
same deck the one playing more cards is more likely to win. leaving deal
with the devil out of the consideration, of course.

there is one big restriction when regarding discards in v:tes. you are
limited to your deck. when your through, that's it. this can be a problem
with combat heavy decks or political decks that use a lot of modifiers.

this is completely different in games like middle earth: the wizards that
let you reuse your discard pile once you're through your deck. here james'
formula is completely true. many games showed me that the person who cycles
his/her deck more often usually wins.

i still agree with you that it makes sense to discard a card most of the
time. i like to say that if you have to discard a card your deck is simple
not good *g* but that is mostly for the show effect. in most situations an
experienced player is able to tell which card will be useless for the next 2
rounds or so.

this gives us two crucial points: experience and short term planning. in my
opinion it rarely makes sense to save a card that won't help you at all for
two or three rounds because a competitive game can be over in maybe 10
turns.

one last point: the type of cards used in a deck can also affect the need to
discard. e.g. an early rutor's hand is just too nice, but later on you just
don not have the blood left. even more so a legendary vampire which can only
be played the round after the vampire moved into the active region.

therefore it is possible to tune a deck so there is less need to discard.
granted, deck construction is complex enough wothout this. but sometimes is
helps. in my expirience cards that cost pool or a lot of blood are like
candidates for discards.

just my 2 cents.

pallando

shsoton <shs...@dircon.co.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
gI9W4.569$6T1....@news.dircon.co.uk...

James Coupe

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
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On Mon, 22 May 2000, pallando wrote:

> this is an interesting thread. i think james' sentence should be adjusted to
> "The person seeing the most cards in a game is most likely to win", if
> everybody plays the same deck.

I don't recall using those exact words, but something close wouldn't be
far off. Having seen quite a few games go with people sitting with cards
in their hand and people achieving card flow, it does seem that those with
better card flow do better. Happy Families
(http://www.zephyr.org.uk/happyfamilies.htm - plug, plug) is one way to do
that, as expounded by His Magnificence, The Biter of Legs. Effective use
of the discard phase is another, or whatever discard mechanisms you have
available.

Whilst a long time player of the game, my expertise lie more with abstract
strategy and rules than with playing the game at the very highest levels.
I did actually work out two of my biggest problems in games, though:

1) The desire to hoard pool. I've always disliked spending massive
amounts of pool on vampires. Unfortunately, this puts me at a massive
disadvantage, since a lot of the more skillful players do, or play decks
with smaller vampires, so I cannot block all their bleeds, say, since I
have 3 minions, they have 5.

2) The desire to hoard cards. A lot of the time, I sit there and think
"Oh, if only I could just pull that...." and so I keep cards which are
*now* useless to me, but which *might* come good *if*..... Probably 9
times out of 10, perhaps 19 times out of 20, I would be better cycling for
card flow, rather than hoarding for the future.

The above two flaws are ones I see in a number of players, not just
myself, but Jyhad On-Line 'taught' me to see those things in myself, since
the extra time you have really allows you to evaluate your playing style
vis a vis that of others, since you aren't just going at full pelt, and
are not able to just dismiss things as a slip on your part due to
rushing, IME.

Now, clearly, not every situation requires you to discard cards. There
are situations whereby holding those cards *is* the best thing to do,
without a doubt. But I see far too many players holding on to far too
many cards for far too long, when just a couple of discards away are
probably the cards they need, or cards more suited to this situation
anyway. Hell, if you're being stealthed past like there's no tomorrow,
what's the point of holding Random Card X?

--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D

"I know my ex-boyfriend lies. Oh, he does it every time. It's just his
permanent disguise, yeah, yeah, but he's drop dead gorgeous."


Kevin Kelly

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May 22, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/22/00
to
shsoton wrote:
>
> The discard phase.
>
> I think there is a point in all quality players development when you realise
> that all resources are expendable. The vastly expensive powervamp you have
> just squeezed out, the last pool and yes even that Ascendance you have been
> hoarding for a rainy day. etc. etc. yada yada
>
> Cards in your hand and permanents on the table are the two most obvious
> assets you have at any given point in a game. It is all too easy keeping
> hold of a few cards that 'would be useful later on'. I think it is much
> better to make the hard choice and pick a card to bin that is less useful
> than the others. Easy to say but hard to do if you have a good hand. In
> general though, I think that the discard phase is underused.

<snip>

> Any thoughts ??

I completely agree. Someone once told me (and I find it very true) if
you don't plan to use it in the next two turns - get rid of it. When my
decks are working just right, I might not discard much, but usually, I
find myself dicarding something each turn. Often when they are working
right, I am still discarding something every turn. I have a theoretical
"best hand" for any deck I play. That is, the hand that I most want to
have most of the time. If I don't have that hand, I discard.

Kevin

oaf...@my-deja.com

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
Wow.

In a day and age, when I thought that everyone had just about the same
concepts of gaming, along comes a discussion like this.

I don't understand why this thread exists. Drawing cards is integral
to the game. To be able to draw more cards than your opponent, whether
it be with a deal, or a fragment, or even the dreams, is a huge
advantage. Any player who considers themselves worthy of being in a
competitive forum, will be able to discard the appropriate card at the
appropriate time, thus ensuring maximum capabilities for their deck.
Any player who considers themselves worthy of being in a competitive
forum, knows the ramifications of not cycling through their deck fast
enough, and the advantages of cycling through their deck in an
efficient manner. This conversation truly stems from deck
construction, with parallels to the metagame and crypt construction. A
properly built deck, effectively randomized (oxymoron?), played by a
worthy opponent will be effective more often than not. Not
neccessarily win, but be effective. Concentration on the metagame can
lead to false security, as when one new guy shows up in your coterie,
and spanks you all for being so narrow minded. I am living proof that
metagaming is overrated. Focus on your deck first, then your
opponents.

When all is said and done though, this is a game, and should be played
for fun, with all intentions of having a good time. Winning is
important for self-esteem, but keeping friends is more important, isn't
it?

In conclusion, drawing cards cannot and should not be viewed as a bad
thing. You will discard the wrong card from time to time, but with
practice, those times will decrease and your enjoyment of your wins
will seem sweeter.

Thomas Kuster
V:EKN Prince of Caledon

"Of Man's first disobedience, and the fruit
Of that forbidden tree whose mortal taste
Brought death into the world, and all our woe."
John Milton, Paradise Lost. Book i. Line 1.

In article <ZqaW4.8159$lI1.1...@news.chello.at>,


"pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> wrote:
> this is an interesting thread. i think james' sentence should be
adjusted to
> "The person seeing the most cards in a game is most likely to win", if
> everybody plays the same deck.

> > The discard phase.
> >
> > I think there is a point in all quality players development when you
> realise
> > that all resources are expendable. The vastly expensive powervamp
you have
> > just squeezed out, the last pool and yes even that Ascendance you
have
> been
> > hoarding for a rainy day. etc. etc. yada yada
> >
> > Cards in your hand and permanents on the table are the two most
obvious
> > assets you have at any given point in a game. It is all too easy
keeping
> > hold of a few cards that 'would be useful later on'. I think it is
much
> > better to make the hard choice and pick a card to bin that is less
useful
> > than the others. Easy to say but hard to do if you have a good
hand. In
> > general though, I think that the discard phase is underused.
> >

> > happen) - "The person seeing the most cards in a game is most
likely to
> win"
> >


> > Mmmmmm much chin rubbing and mechanic style intake of breath. I
agree to a
> > certain extent but it is not that simple. Quantity is only a part
of the
> > whole equation. To quote a cheesy line, Power is nought without
control -
> > use your plethora of resources don't waste them.
> >
> > Any thoughts ??
> >
> >
> > Rob T
> > (Still hungover from Saturday. Bastard Newcastle Brown Ale)
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Tim Eijpe

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
Hi, good question.
I think where it boils down to with the discard phase, is knowing which
cards in your hand will ensure the most profit in any situation that the
game will provide. Thus, even the one-shot-kill cards should be
discarded when they do not maximize chances of succes. E.g. Hostile
takeover against a weenie deck....
Also opportunity cost is something to think about during your discard
phase as is actual cost. This could all be covered by that same 'most
profit' idea.
Yes all resources are expendable. You have, say 90 cards in you deck,
then you have 90 cards of time and resources to oust enough players to
give you the vp's. Whether you use 60, 20 or all 90 cards to get the
vp's, does not matter IMO.
Still it takes some skill in using the Discard Phase to the most
advantage........

Tim Eijpe

PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise

--

legb...@my-deja.com

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
In article <8gcna0$itg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

oaf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Wow.
>
> In a day and age, when I thought that everyone had just about the same
> concepts of gaming, along comes a discussion like this.
>
> I don't understand why this thread exists.

Why it exists is that Rob, technically the best player i have ever met,
is very kindly over a series of articles explaining for the benefit of
new people [and even some old ones!] some of the principles behind his
game. Anybody who plays in VTES tournaments knows the kind of thing he is
gently warning against - hoarding of power-cards for a future that isn't
going to arrive. i hope lots of people read and digest his wise words.
Good on ya, Rob!

Drawing cards is integral
> to the game. To be able to draw more cards than your opponent, whether
> it be with a deal, or a fragment, or even the dreams, is a huge
> advantage. Any player who considers themselves worthy of being in a
> competitive forum, will be able to discard the appropriate card at the
> appropriate time, thus ensuring maximum capabilities for their deck.
> Any player who considers themselves worthy of being in a competitive
> forum, knows the ramifications of not cycling through their deck fast
> enough, and the advantages of cycling through their deck in an
> efficient manner. This conversation truly stems from deck
> construction, with parallels to the metagame and crypt construction. A
> properly built deck, effectively randomized (oxymoron?), played by a
> worthy opponent will be effective more often than not. Not
> neccessarily win, but be effective. Concentration on the metagame can
> lead to false security, as when one new guy shows up in your coterie,
> and spanks you all for being so narrow minded. I am living proof that
> metagaming is overrated.

Interesting comment, care to elaborate?

Focus on your deck first, then your
> opponents.
>
> When all is said and done though, this is a game, and should be played
> for fun, with all intentions of having a good time. Winning is
> important for self-esteem, but keeping friends is more important, isn't
> it?
>

Hmmm. In tournaments you play to win. At home or with friends you play
for fun. But i sorta know what you mean.

> In conclusion, drawing cards cannot and should not be viewed as a bad
> thing. You will discard the wrong card from time to time, but with
> practice, those times will decrease and your enjoyment of your wins
> will seem sweeter.
>

Er, right. So you aren't actually disagreeing with Rob at all, unless i
misunderstand very badly indeed?

<snip pallando's comments>

Yes, i must admit i read all james's posts just in case there is any
juicy Stuff about gorgeous ex-boyfriends or steel collars.

- "The person seeing the most cards in a game is most
> likely to
> > win"
> > >
> > > Mmmmmm much chin rubbing and mechanic style intake of breath. I
> agree to a
> > > certain extent but it is not that simple. Quantity is only a part
> of the
> > > whole equation. To quote a cheesy line, Power is nought without
> control -
> > > use your plethora of resources don't waste them.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts ??
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob T
> > > (Still hungover from Saturday. Bastard Newcastle Brown Ale)
> > >

Well, i agree with most of that, but i'd make ONE exception. Information
is one of the resources you have - YOU know what your deck does, but
until you start revealing cards from it, no-one else does. For this
reason i rarely discard on the first turn of a tournament [unless my hand
is COMPLETE poo], and there are one or two "surprise" cards [Kiss of Ra
being a good example] that i tend not to discard either, at least until i
have got to play one. This, however, is a nuance rather than a
disagreement.

One final nuance is that you can discard to bluff - for example, by
having ONE Kiss of Ra, Sensory Deprivation or Dragon's breath Round in
your deck, which is only there to create Fear when you discard it. Not my
idea, by the way, and i'm ashamed to say i can't remember who pioneered
this.

oaf...@my-deja.com

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
In article <8gdich$4hj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,

Of course I will... Many a time I play duels with my wife, and my game
resorts to one on one. I "forget" how to play the multiplayer game and
find myself taking a couple games to get back in to multiplayer
atmosphere. Plus, all aspects of the game must be considered. Someone
will come along and play a deck you have never seen, and you won't be
ready for it. Thus, focusing on the metagame of the moment(another
oxymoron?), is of upmost importance.


>
> Focus on your deck first, then your
> > opponents.
> >
> > When all is said and done though, this is a game, and should be
played
> > for fun, with all intentions of having a good time. Winning is
> > important for self-esteem, but keeping friends is more important,
isn't
> > it?
> >
> Hmmm. In tournaments you play to win. At home or with friends you play
> for fun. But i sorta know what you mean.

Tournaments are for winning, but the experience and networking you do,
is more important. Maybe, just maybe, we are taking this whole thing
just a bit too serious. It is just a game.


>
> > In conclusion, drawing cards cannot and should not be viewed as a
bad
> > thing. You will discard the wrong card from time to time, but with
> > practice, those times will decrease and your enjoyment of your wins
> > will seem sweeter.
> >
> Er, right. So you aren't actually disagreeing with Rob at all, unless
i
> misunderstand very badly indeed?
>

No, I don't disagree with Rob. I agree wholeheartedly. I just didn't
think that even newbies wouldn't understand the importance of cycling.
Till next time,

Thomas Kuster
V:EKN Prince of Caledon

"What do you mean hand strike for 6?"

pallando

unread,
May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
snip a lot of stuff

> Well, i agree with most of that, but i'd make ONE exception. Information
> is one of the resources you have - YOU know what your deck does, but
> until you start revealing cards from it, no-one else does. For this
> reason i rarely discard on the first turn of a tournament [unless my hand
> is COMPLETE poo], and there are one or two "surprise" cards [Kiss of Ra
> being a good example] that i tend not to discard either, at least until i
> have got to play one. This, however, is a nuance rather than a
> disagreement.
>
> One final nuance is that you can discard to bluff - for example, by
> having ONE Kiss of Ra, Sensory Deprivation or Dragon's breath Round in
> your deck, which is only there to create Fear when you discard it. Not my
> idea, by the way, and i'm ashamed to say i can't remember who pioneered
> this.

good point there legbiter! discarding in the first round is not that clever
because it might bive a lot of information away.

the scary discard is interesting too.

Chris Shorb

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May 23, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/23/00
to
Credit where credit due department -


legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
[snip all the other stuff]


> One final nuance is that you can discard to bluff - for example, by
> having ONE Kiss of Ra, Sensory Deprivation or Dragon's breath Round in
> your deck, which is only there to create Fear when you discard it. Not my
> idea, by the way, and i'm ashamed to say i can't remember who pioneered
> this.
>


Rob Goudie added one dragon breath rounds to his weenie dominate bleed
deck during a period when another fellow was playing weenie zip gun/DBR
decks and regularly making finals with it. He mentioned the DBR thing
in his write up of an LA tournament when his (Rob's) deck won.


--
Chris
ultimate disc - V:TES - hockey
prince of torrance, ca

legb...@my-deja.com

unread,
May 24, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/24/00
to
<Shed Loads of text>

> > > and spanks you all for being so narrow minded. I am living proof
> that
> > > metagaming is overrated.
> >
> > Interesting comment, care to elaborate?
>
> Of course I will... Many a time I play duels with my wife, and my game
> resorts to one on one.

Well, then, and TOTALLY on topic for a thread about the Discard Phase,
i'll draw your attention to the Official Rules for Strip jyhad as played
[so far ALWAYS in duel format] at Legbiter mansions. They are in the
Gangrel-antritribu newsletter for December '99, i think.

> I "forget" how to play the multiplayer game and
> find myself taking a couple games to get back in to multiplayer
> atmosphere. Plus, all aspects of the game must be considered. Someone
> will come along and play a deck you have never seen, and you won't be
> ready for it. Thus, focusing on the metagame of the moment(another
> oxymoron?), is of upmost importance.
> >

> > >


> > > When all is said and done though, this is a game, and should be
> played
> > > for fun, with all intentions of having a good time. Winning is
> > > important for self-esteem, but keeping friends is more important,
> isn't
> > > it?
> > >
> > Hmmm. In tournaments you play to win. At home or with friends you play
> > for fun. But i sorta know what you mean.
>
> Tournaments are for winning, but the experience and networking you do,
> is more important. Maybe, just maybe, we are taking this whole thing
> just a bit too serious. It is just a game.

i know what you mean, and maybe i'd go further and say that it is SEVERAL
games - different people play Jyhad as a card-based RPG or a pure
strategy game, with all sorts of shades in between. But there's a certain
pleasure in the purely intellectual pursuit of excellence in anything,
even trying to figure out the nature of a DNA structure that maybe 10
people in the world have ever heard of, even a "mere" game. And it can
give people strength, too - if they know they are really good at one
thing there's an area of their life over which they have control, and
that can give them the fortitude to cope with other areas of their life
that are going less well. So i am tolerant about obsessions with abstruse
intellectualism, mere games and silly hobbies of all kinds! Except for
professional soccer and spellfire, of course.

....salem....

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May 29, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/29/00
to
In article <8gdich$4hj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
legb...@my-deja.com wrote:
<BIG FAT SNIP>

Information
> is one of the resources you have - YOU know what your deck does, but
> until you start revealing cards from it, no-one else does. For this
> reason i rarely discard on the first turn of a tournament [unless my
hand
> is COMPLETE poo], and there are one or two "surprise" cards [Kiss of
Ra
> being a good example] that i tend not to discard either, at least
until i
> have got to play one. This, however, is a nuance rather than a
> disagreement.

i will concede that dicarding is a very important facet of the game.
however, i would also like to use this thread to bring up something that
i have seen in my play group: the compulsory discard.

now, this isn't some rule or anything that forces you to discard. it is
a flawed mindset among some players that feel that every turn they
_have_ to discard. they don't get to the discard phase and think "hmm,
that's not going to be useful anytime soon, i'll trash it", instead they
think "hmm. i have to throw something, what will it be?" even if they
have a hand that is great for the given circumstances, they throw
something. to me, that's not an efficient use of resources, it's
squandering.

so while it is good to be able to identify what will be useful and what
won't in coming turns, it is also necessary to make value judgemtns
about what is likely to come up, and whether those up-coming cards are
going to be useful.
cycling crap to get to other cards when you know all you have in the
deck is more of the same, is also useless.

so sure, cycle, but you shouldn't have to feel like it's always going to
be the best option....

_*__salem
_*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/
***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com
_*__and the rains came hammering down

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