EC 2002
Miller Delmardigan
I can't wait!
François
Halcyan 2
>
>I can't wait!
All I know is that I read something about a Belgian winning it on another
message board. (Unconfirmed).
Halcyan 2
Jeroen
> Any news from this biggest tournament ever?
>
> I can't wait!
>
> François
Winner was Dave Bastijns from Leuven (Louvain), Belgium with a
Old-Style Malk S&B deck.
Things I noticed in the Austrian metagame (all IMO, of course):
* people from eastern europe are not used to table talking and making
deals. The play with tunnel vision towards their prey.
* Responsible bleeding is another thing people seem to have a problem
with.
About the alleged seating cheating:
First of all, I don't think Carl would allow such a thing (or even
consider it) BUT you have to admit it looks kind of strange when a
player is managing the Archon and it takes ages to get the seating for
the next round. Especially since everybody knew he already
manipulated the seating the first day (3 new players entered the
tourney after the first round.) Just for appearance's sake it was not
a good choice.
How did I do?
Well, badly :-(
First round my predator played a Calean deck. I was playing ani-pot
Rush. I had to make a deal with my grand prey. I had to help him kill
Jeff Thompson (sorry again, BTW.) Managed to get 2 VP, the other 2
going to the Calean deck (hi Fabian) and 1 to the Malk I made the deal
with.
Second round: Another set range deck as my predator (Gargoyles) and
Damnans as my prey. Crashed and burned. Damnans' deck took the game
win.
Third round: grand predator starts tossing around Anarch Revolts AND
keeps on dealing the extra point of his KRCs to me. Table goes against
him. He dies, my predator (Malk S&B) is on the brink of dying.
The malk deck takes his 2nd VP (Dave, the new European champion)now
sits between 2 rush decks (my prey played the cel gun deck). But
disaster strikes. My hand is jammed on rushes and computer hackings
(and no combat cards) and my prey has only combat cards and no Rush
:-( Needless to say Dave swept.
But I had a good time and will maybe post more when my memory is
awake.
Jeroen
Frankiehu
> "Miller Delmardigan" <al...@club-internet.fr> wrote in message news:<3deb4311$0$7354$7a62...@news.club-internet.fr>...
> > Any news from this biggest tournament ever?
> >
> > I can't wait!
> >
> > François
>
> Winner was Dave Bastijns from Leuven (Louvain), Belgium with a
> Old-Style Malk S&B deck.
>
> Things I noticed in the Austrian metagame (all IMO, of course):
>
> * people from eastern europe are not used to table talking and making
> deals. The play with tunnel vision towards their prey.
>
Not true. We always do table talking, and make -short term- deals.
But we do not tolerate table splitting deals. Especially when it's not
in english, or can be discovered during the game.
Ferenc Vasadi
BP
jeroen rombouts
"Frankiehu" <fran...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:86201f12.02120...@posting.google.com...
I meant that as: "I noticed a trend indicating that in our local metagame
(and the countries around us) we are used to making ALOT more deals. But I
was too lazy too type it out :-)
And what are you suggesting by that last remark?
Frankiehu
Ohh..
Ok, sorry I misunderstand it... ;-)
Frankie
Joscha Duell
>
> * people from eastern europe are not used to table talking and making
> deals. The play with tunnel vision towards their prey.
Not the worst habit I think. Much better than the typical "I slay my predator"-mode.
Cheers,
Joscha
Carl Pilhatsch
May I also add that it's not the Austrian metagame, rather this was a mixture of all of
Europe's major areas metagames. :)
Carl
reyda
I'm proudly part of the "I slay my predator crew". If you have no real
defense against your pred', prepare to ruin his day before he ruins yours.
If you don't play deflections/redirections (which is a courageous choice in
a tournament) and you're preyed on by a big bleeder, i don't see any other
valable answer than back rushing, back voting, back pounding, whatever.
What's the point in harming my prey, being killed and seeing my predator
finish the job i started for him ?
Joscha Duell
Balance is the trick. What helps you to have a new predator hunting
you with 6 more pool than the old? Do you want to throw him out as
well? What use is to give Victory Points away freely to others? Bash
your predator, that's okay (expecially if he is a big bleeder and you
don't have another defense). But DON'T kick him out. Intimidation is
the thing.
I often see beginners acting like they think: "okay, first objective
is to stay in the game. You evil predator won't get me, that's for
sure." So the only thing they do is to defend with everything they
have. But the game goes exactly the other way. Your first objective
should be to kill your prey, because that brings you points and fame
;o)
I have to admit that sometimes there may be a predator who rather die
than let you some time to breath and to do your prey-hunting. In that
case you can negotiate with your grandpredator that he let's you go if
you help him to finish his prey.
But in general: deal damage balanced, to the left and right. And keep
your goal in mind: Kill the prey, no matter what it costs.
Just my view of things,
Joscha
Orpheus
> your goal in mind: Kill the prey, no matter what it costs.
>
> Just my view of things,
> Joscha
I understand and agree to one thing : your goal stays to kill your prey. But
then, if you're dead, you can't !! So it all depends on the situation. Often
have I seen players concentrating on their predators while they should have
done at least some harm to their prey ; but I also have seen people who
didn't have the choice. At the French Open, on a 4-players table, my prey
(whom I was sure to oust) was trying to convince my War-Ghoulator predator
to rush me instead of his own predator (a Gangrel / Dom heavy bleeder) ;
now, he hesitated for some turns, passed stupid deals, lost time. Results :
in the end he had no choice but to backrush, and he died a painful death
anyway. Sure, it gave me the table, but there was NO WAY he could have
killed me (pool-wise) before he died, and if he had backrushed right away he
would have survived (and could have finished me once he had a small-bleeding
Nosfie on his case). So, it's really a matter of exact situation. But in my
experience, spreading your threats at your right and left has every chance
to kill you without any interesting effect (except if you have LOTS of
rushers...), while killing your prey right away will only be worth it if you
can bleed thoroughly right after that, and / or if you don't have a quick
bleeder / voter behind. Anytime I've got a Malk or Setite on my ass, be sure
I'll punch his face in (and ask him to calm down or die) before I do
anything to my prey. That's why fight is so hard to play...
--
Cheers from the Grave,
Orpheus
http://necrobones.free.fr
http://no.exit.free.fr
http://cypheranima.free.fr
news://news.zoo-logique.org/VTES-francophone
reyda
:: "reyda" <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:: news:<3dee2212$0$20266$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>...
::: I'm proudly part of the "I slay my predator crew". If you have no
::: real defense against your pred', prepare to ruin his day before
::: he ruins yours. If you don't play deflections/redirections (which
::: is a courageous choice in a tournament) and you're preyed on by a
::: big bleeder, i don't see any other valable answer than back
::: rushing, back voting, back pounding, whatever. What's the point
::: in harming my prey, being killed and seeing my predator finish
::: the job i started for him ?
::
:: Balance is the trick. What helps you to have a new predator hunting
:: you with 6 more pool than the old? Do you want to throw him out as
:: well? What use is to give Victory Points away freely to others?
:: Bash your predator, that's okay (expecially if he is a big bleeder
:: and you don't have another defense). But DON'T kick him out.
:: Intimidation is the thing.
Intimidation is okay, killing "key" vampires in flames is better. In most of
decks you have vampires for offense and vampires for defense. Eg : your pred
has 2 vamps with the same capacity, but one of them has +1 bleed, or one of
them has DOM. This is the one you'll target first. Because you don't want to
be bled at stealth, you don't want this vampire to bounce all the bleeds to
you. It's better to strike once right away, so your pred knows your warnings
are not bluff. Without his most aggressive vampire, your predator will
likely turn into defense mode and try to slow down his own predator until he
infleunces out another offensive vampire.
There is also another crucial thing : the faster you take down your prey's
vampire, the harder ti will be to kill him if you play a rush deck. If you
torporize them, he may choose to stop to influence other vamps and you'll
likely bleed him for one twice each turn, taking ages to oust him. Other
players may also rescue your prey's vampire for the sake of having a speed
bump handy. In other words : don't rush your prey right away, wait until he
spends a lot of pool in influence, then go for the kill.
:: I often see beginners acting like they think: "okay, first
:: objective is to stay in the game. You evil predator won't get me,
:: that's for sure." So the only thing they do is to defend with
:: everything they have. But the game goes exactly the other way.
:: Your first objective should be to kill your prey, because that
:: brings you points and fame ;o)
Yes, but with a deck wich contains no dominate nor auspex, the faster your
get on your prey, the longer it takes to oust him.
:: I have to admit that sometimes there may be a predator who rather
:: die than let you some time to breath and to do your prey-hunting.
:: In that case you can negotiate with your grandpredator that he
:: let's you go if you help him to finish his prey.
this happen when you rush your prey badly : your grandprey will use this
opportunity to perfect his settlement and when you'll look behind you you
may see intercept locations, hunting grounds and leather jackets everywhere.
:: But in general: deal damage balanced, to the left and right. And
:: keep your goal in mind: Kill the prey, no matter what it costs.
::
:: Just my view of things,
:: Joscha
i understand your feeling, but imho i tend to believe that the first rush
should be for your predator.
Jourdan Jean-Noel
backrush first and after explode your prey at the condition you've obtain
from your predator less pression. Don't forget a rush/fight deck have very
few (or not) untap, intercept and pool recup.
For exemple my deck have 14 bum's and 4 haven (enough to explode everything
on the table) but only 5 blood doll, no untap and no intercept. This kind of
deck can kill their prey or predator but main goal is to stay alive and
control the table.
The best card in that kind of deck is tension in the rank. When you've put
this card on the table you can negociate many thing and expect to kill your
prey without bleeding.
You can have a general strategy but you always have to react at the exact
situation, behold the table and you play with the equilibre.
And you can always negociate with your predator. Many players think it's
heretic but if you can't kill your prey what are u suppose to do? Give me
your vision, it's pretty cool to speal stategy and metagame.
Jean-Noel Jourdan, Tremere Archon Vekn Paris
"Joscha Duell" <jdu...@stud.uni-frankfurt.de> a écrit dans le message news:
72d21a31.02120...@posting.google.com...
Joscha Duell
it's
> heretic but if you can't kill your prey what are u suppose to do? Give me
I would feel ashamed if my prey would make the table win in a round.
So my main goal is to keep her from it. Of course you can make deals
with your prey, but beware to give her an easy table sweep. If it's my
fault that my prey sweeps, everybody is allowed to call me a whimp (on
the other hand they do it anyway ;o) ).
So I think even if you have absolutely the wrong deck to play against
your prey it is your duty to at least make her life as difficult as
possible. Nothing annoys me more than a predator who give up hunting
on her prey too soon just because she thinks, she can't do anything
against her. It is the spirit of the game to go to the left so just do
it. That is the only way the game works.
Cheers,
Joscha
Carsten isselhorst
> So I think even if you have absolutely the wrong deck to play against
> your prey it is your duty to at least make her life as difficult as
> possible. Nothing annoys me more than a predator who give up hunting
> on her prey too soon just because she thinks, she can't do anything
> against her. It is the spirit of the game to go to the left so just do
> it. That is the only way the game works.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Joscha
Its always nice to be enlightened by the former european champion on how
this game works ! but i think joscha has got a point in there .....
People tend to be more concerned about being able to do cross table
rushes jsut to show how mean they can be instead of playing the game
properly. your goal is to oust your prey and i couldnt imagine a
situation when i had 3(or even more vamps) not doing a single operation
against my prey for several turns !
Maybe us oldtimers havent yet adapted to this change of play :)
VTES is a very complex game and has a lot to do with balance but no
pressure on your prey and alot of pressure on the predator imbalance the
whole table giving away two easy victory points in most cases.
Seeing a straightforward deck winning the EC is making me happy now
seeing that at least some things havent changed , killing your prey
gives you the win.
Concerning all the other stuff i read i just want to remark we used to
be a big family and although my decks werent liked by almost all of you
i found alot of frineds when travelling to london paris or whereever.
(special greetings to the belgium guys taking another title:) next
german championship it wont be that easy... )
i wish the french and the austrian guys would end their dispute and go
on playing this fantastic game we all love so much ...
Greetings Carsten
Jourdan Jean-Noel
> Concerning all the other stuff i read i just want to remark we used to
> be a big family and although my decks werent liked by almost all of you
> i found alot of frineds when travelling to london paris or whereever.
> (special greetings to the belgium guys taking another title:) next
> german championship it wont be that easy... )
>
Agree
> i wish the french and the austrian guys would end their dispute and go
> on playing this fantastic game we all love so much ...
I'm only speaking stategy. I never initatiate or encourage a dispute between
austrians and frenches guys. Have u heard me criticize in this mess? No
because my vision and my personality are quite different.
Some expect communication or explanation. I know they have (and me) what
they want now.
Organisation was great (different from the usual here) and the place was
perfect for playing Vtes.
I just regret 3 things (it was be perfect otherwise):
1. The fee entry for spectators, no realy cool for game promotion and for
the girl friends.
2. No really place for non-smoker
3. Not enough time for eating between first and second round
I just want to saluate the work from Carl and the others austrians. But when
i saw critics from EC2001 and EC2002 i just expect to never have to organize
a such event.
>
> Greetings Carsten
See u next year
Greeting Jean-Noel
Curevei
>> your prey it is your duty to at least make her life as difficult as
>> possible. Nothing annoys me more than a predator who give up hunting
>> on her prey too soon just because she thinks, she can't do anything
>> against her. It is the spirit of the game to go to the left so just do
>> it. That is the only way the game works.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joscha
>
>Its always nice to be enlightened by the former european champion on how
>this game works ! but i think joscha has got a point in there .....
>People tend to be more concerned about being able to do cross table
>rushes jsut to show how mean they can be instead of playing the game
>properly. your goal is to oust your prey and i couldnt imagine a
>situation when i had 3(or even more vamps) not doing a single operation
>against my prey for several turns !
>Maybe us oldtimers havent yet adapted to this change of play :)
>VTES is a very complex game and has a lot to do with balance but no
>pressure on your prey and alot of pressure on the predator imbalance the
>whole table giving away two easy victory points in most cases.
>
>Seeing a straightforward deck winning the EC is making me happy now
>seeing that at least some things havent changed , killing your prey
>gives you the win.
"Ousting your prey", "killing your prey" - there's nothing in the game about
annoying your prey or weakening your prey. If taking actions against your prey
isn't going to have a meaningful effect on ousting your prey, then there's
nothing inherently valuable about those actions.
I find the attitude of causing as much pain as possible to your predator or
prey regardless as to the value such things have towards winning bizarre.
Strikes me as being blind to the fact that everyone is in the same boat,
everyone has both a predator and a prey and everyone is trying to win (one
hopes).
Kamel SENNI
> "> And you can always negociate with your predator. Many players think
> it's
> > heretic but if you can't kill your prey what are u suppose to do? Give me
> > your vision...
>
> I would feel ashamed if my prey would make the table win in a round.
> So my main goal is to keep her from it. Of course you can make deals
> with your prey, but beware to give her an easy table sweep. If it's my
> fault that my prey sweeps, everybody is allowed to call me a whimp (on
> the other hand they do it anyway ;o) ).
Thanks you for my table win in germany, Josh ;-)))))
> So I think even if you have absolutely the wrong deck to play against
> your prey it is your duty to at least make her life as difficult as
> possible. Nothing annoys me more than a predator who give up hunting
> on her prey too soon just because she thinks, she can't do anything
> against her. It is the spirit of the game to go to the left so just do
> it. That is the only way the game works.
Perhaps in the spirit of the game... but the table win rule have
changed all the things...
The goal became gain the table in... not killing your prey, that is
only a means to gain your vp.
In tournament, i have already let my prey oust his own prey, because
my grand prey was the nemesis of my deck...
My little experience in VTES shows me that :
1) The guy without predator wins.
2) The guy who do nothing wins at the end...
I often let someone oust a player, just to see the union against the
"bad guy"... and profit of this.
The fast-forward attitude is not always the good one, in my opinion.
Another arguments :
Imagine a five players game.
You are A.
You put the pressure on B.
He have to defend.
Then C can put the pressure on D, who have to defend, if he wants to
survive.
Now E, you predator has his hands free, and can do anything he want to
you...
Put the pressure too early, and the reaction is against you...
richard
your right. i扉e seen this a lot of times
Bram Thibaut
> The fast-forward attitude is not always the good one, in my opinion.
> Another arguments :
> Imagine a five players game.
> You are A.
> You put the pressure on B.
> He have to defend.
> Then C can put the pressure on D, who have to defend, if he wants to
> survive.
> Now E, you predator has his hands free, and can do anything he want to
> you...
> Put the pressure too early, and the reaction is against you...
That's exactly why I hate playing at a four player table. And it
happened twice (once saturday and once sunday) to me in Vienna.
Bram Thibaut
Joscha Duell
> > "> And you can always negociate with your predator. Many players think
> > it's
> > > heretic but if you can't kill your prey what are u suppose to do? Give me
> > > your vision...
> >
> > I would feel ashamed if my prey would make the table win in a round.
> > So my main goal is to keep her from it. Of course you can make deals
> > with your prey, but beware to give her an easy table sweep. If it's my
> > fault that my prey sweeps, everybody is allowed to call me a whimp (on
> > the other hand they do it anyway ;o) ).
>
> Thanks you for my table win in germany, Josh ;-)))))
>
You are allowed to call me a whimp :o)
You mean the regular German Champ. event. It's a shame I made that
horrible mistake letting your harmless vote through just to be caught
by that Cryptic Rider.
snip
> My little experience in VTES shows me that :
> 1) The guy without predator wins.
Right you are. That's what I'm saying.
> 2) The guy who do nothing wins at the end...
> I often let someone oust a player, just to see the union against the
> "bad guy"... and profit of this.
That went horribly wrong for you in the Draft event at the German
Champs. at Saturday where you did nothing against my predator, but my
predator did also nothing against me (because of the same tactic I
think). So I had no predator (see above) and easy victory points and
you were ousted ;o) Sadly you revenged that at Sunday, where the whole
table turned against you and you made the table win. You did not "do
nothing" but were on fast fast forward with your Lasombra weenies and
you were succesful.
>
> The fast-forward attitude is not always the good one, in my opinion.
> Another arguments :
> Imagine a five players game.
> You are A.
> You put the pressure on B.
> He have to defend.
> Then C can put the pressure on D, who have to defend, if he wants to
> survive.
> Now E, you predator has his hands free, and can do anything he want to
> you...
> Put the pressure too early, and the reaction is against you...
Correct. You have to find a good timing. But many players wait very
long, too long and let their prey do whatever she wants. To wait for
some rounds is okay, but, again, DON'T LET YOUR PREY WIN
VICTORYPOINTS(or you're a ... yeah, you got it.)
reyda
:: kamel...@yvelines.pref.gouv.fr (Kamel SENNI) wrote in message
::: Thanks you for my table win in germany, Josh ;-)))))
:::
::
:: You are allowed to call me a whimp :o)
::
:: You mean the regular German Champ. event. It's a shame I made that
:: horrible mistake letting your harmless vote through just to be
:: caught by that Cryptic Rider.
How could you imagine such a twisted mechanic, Joscha. It's quite normal you
felt into the trick. =)
this weenie Lasombra + embrace + Hungry coyote + power structure will be
harder to play with the new text of Embrace in CE, so i guess it was some
kind of jubilee fot it =)
(snip)
::: 2) The guy who do nothing wins at the end...
This is the kind of things that bother me. Doing nothing means waiting for
the right opportunity to place a deadly combo or trying to change the
seating. Always fear the guy who's doing nothing. Have a close look at what
he discards. Ask him why and try to sense the lie beneath his words ;)