Wallpaper
Petri Wessman
useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but
sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards.
Let's see:
Total wallpaper
---------------
- Concealed Weapon
Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon.
- Eyes of the Dead
The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.
- Chainsaw
Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a
melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).
- Protracted Investment
Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases.
Any other cards that have no conceivable use?
Near-wallpaper
--------------
- Werewolf Pack
I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this
over a Renegade Garou
- Most "burnable with (D) action" locations, especially from Dark
Sovereigns.
Most of these have too little game effect and are far too
fragile to be useful.
- Blood Puppy
Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but
pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might
be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured
out a use for this card?
Ex-wallpaper
------------
Hell Hound
I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)
I'm sure there are lots of other cards that could be added to this
list, ideas?
//Petri
Sorrow
> --------------
> - Werewolf Pack
> I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this
> over a Renegade Garou
I can: Abomination. Werewolf Pack + Abomination = 5 pool. Renegage
Garou + Abomination = 6 pool.
Sorrow
---
"Are they dead?" - Pugsly
"Does it matter?" - Wednesday
Petri Wessman
>> Near-wallpaper
>> --------------
>> - Werewolf Pack
>> I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this
>> over a Renegade Garou
Sorrow> I can: Abomination. Werewolf Pack + Abomination = 5 pool. Renegage
Sorrow> Garou + Abomination = 6 pool.
Yeah (already went through this in another message ;), but I'm not
convinced. Granted there's a one pool difference, but it seems to me
that WP would only be worth it if you plan on *immediately* turning it
into a Abomination. Otherwise, the RG's powers are simply so much
better that it's more than worth the one pool while you're waiting for
an Abomination card.
Of course, you could have a ton of WPs and Abominations to guarantee
that you get both ASAP... but since Abomination is unique, that would
be a bit pointless imho.
//Petri
LSJ
> As we all know, some cards in this game as totally or near-totally
> useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but
> sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards.
>
> Let's see:
>
> Total wallpaper
> ---------------
>
> - Concealed Weapon
>
> Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon.
Granted. Still, there are fractal corner cases where someone steals
your cards (Agaitas) and you don't want to use anything more powerful
than you actually need. So if you've got a deck full of weenies
with no superior OBF and no weapons other than .44s, you could in
theory be paranoid enough about Agaitas's controller using your
Disguised Weapons to whip out an Assault Rifle that you restrain
yourself to just Concealed Weapon (which is equal to DW for your
purposes).
> - Eyes of the Dead
>
> The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.
Utility comes in stacking - you can use both to get +4 intercept vs.
Diablerie (in case someone uses a Forgotten Labyrinth on the attempt).
Again, a corner case.
> - Chainsaw
>
> Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a
> melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).
Granted.
> - Protracted Investment
>
> Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases.
This could fall under the Agaitas's paranoia umbrella, but is even
less likely.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Petri Wessman
>> - Eyes of the Dead
>>
>> The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.
vtesrep> Utility comes in stacking - you can use both to get +4
vtesrep> intercept vs. Diablerie (in case someone uses a Forgotten
vtesrep> Labyrinth on the attempt). Again, a corner case.
Hmmm, good point, I didn't think of that. Thanks :)
So if you made some weird "I'm going to torpor, come diablerize me
(please)" deck, you might want to include a few EotDs to make sure
nobody stealths past you. Ok, I'll buy that. :)
//Petri
Jozxyqk
> Sovereigns.
> Most of these have too little game effect and are far too
> fragile to be useful.
These are not quite wallpaper in "Come-and-get-me" intercept combat
decks..
James Coupe
wolf.com> writes:
>> - Chainsaw
>>
>> Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a
>> melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).
>
>Granted.
Perhaps a Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage against a Werewolf Pack?
--
James Coupe but I lust after the raw pow0r of c.
PGP 0x5D623D5D together with the humping great
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 elephant arse of gnome.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D - Vashti
Cameron
> ---------------
>
> - Concealed Weapon
>
^^^^^^^^^
>
> - Eyes of the Dead
>
> The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.
they do stack... lol.
>
> - Chainsaw
>
> Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a
> melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).
not gas powered, but shotgun is what makes this crap. same everything
but shotgun does 2R instead of 2.
> Near-wallpaper
> --------------
>
> - Werewolf Pack
>
> I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this
> over a Renegade Garou
Oddly enough, this guy makes chainsaw better than the gas-powered one
in some circumstances. Stupid circumstances? Yes. But they exist.
> - Blood Puppy
>
> Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but
> pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might
> be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured
> out a use for this card?
I've seen it as bait in a PRO ANI block everything deck.
> Hell Hound
>
> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)
To everyone that uses this card: GO YOU. That's what makes this game
so great.
Cameron
Peter D Bakija
>>- Concealed Weapon
Pretty much correct.
>>- Eyes of the Dead
The Deadliest Sin is better in all regards.>>
But they stack, see--if you are *really* paranoid about Diablere, you can use
both...
>>- Chainsaw
Gas-Powered Chainsaw is identical but costs less (and is a
melee weapon, which is more plus than minus).>>
Yup. Give all your chainsaws to charity.
>>- Protracted Investment
Secret Horde is better or as good in all cases.>>
Yup. Protracted Investement always sucked.
>>- Werewolf Pack
I can't think of any scenario in which I would prefer this
over a Renegade Garou>>
Well, the Abomination conversion. Not really appealing or anything, but it is a
possibility. Or if you are in an environment where you find your allies keep
gettingkilled by melee weapons...
>>- Most "burnable with (D) action" locations, especially from Dark
Sovereigns.
Most of these have too little game effect and are far too
fragile to be useful.>>
Not wallpaper. Certainly most of them are corner case, but there is a deck out
there somewhere that loves all of these card. Not real good, sure, but there is
a use for them somewhere.
>>- Blood Puppy
Might be useful as a taunt in a nasty intercept deck, but
pretty poor as investments go. If it wasn't unique there might
be some craze scheme to use this, but...has someone figured
out a use for this card?>>
Blood Puppy is actually useful in the right decks. There aren't *many* decks
that Blood Puppy is good in, but in the few that it is good, it is pretty good.
I have seen folks get a huge amount of pool off of Blood Puppy in nasty
intercept decks. Not a real utilitarian card, no, but certainly it has uses.
>>Hell Hound
I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>>
Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever
using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-)
Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com
http://www.geocities.com/bakija6
"These streets are filled with danger and madness! MADNESS!"
-Zim.
Chris Berger
"Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message
news:7x3czwd...@orava.akumiitti.fi...
>
> Near-wallpaper
> --------------
>
There's a *whole* lot of near-wallpaper to be considered. A small sampling:
Phobia and Mummify are both horribly bad S:CE cards for a clan that has
access to Presence. There are 33 vampires with Serpentis. 9 of them do not
have Presence. Of those 9, only 5 are of 5 capacity or less (if you can
afford to pay the blood for larger vampires, you can afford to use
Presence). The others are Petru Sipos, Murat, Suhailah, and Unre. Not
really the kind of vampires to be afraid of combat. But at least 3 of them
have <for> so they can use Rapid Healing... =P
Coagulate Blood - really, *really* should have been combined with Exuding
Blood into one card: 1R damage (only usable at long range... or not, who
cares?), 2R damage to an ally. Damage cannot be prevented. (And so on for
superior.) As is, the card is utter crap, even *if* you're afraid of
allies.
Weakness - all I can say is, "what???"
Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond
with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case
usefulness even more.
Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use Pushing the Limits
is almost imeasurable. And the amount by which I would prefer to use Fists
of Death instead of Pushing the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury
has no place in any decent deck.
Twisting the Knife - can't believe you missed this one.
Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife (which at least
has an optional press at superior). I am so convinced that this card will
never go in one of my decks that I keep only one copy (to remind myself of
how stupid it is), and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I
consider it a service to humanity.
Halcyan 2
>with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case
>usefulness even more.
Definitely wrong. Movement of the Mind is an *awesome* card and I use it *far*
more often than Apportation. (The fact that I only have 4 Apportations is
beside the point. Even if I had a hundred, I'd still use MoM more).
Yeah, Apportation is the ultimate in Tremere/!Tremere decks. But there are
plenty of Tremere/!Tremere decks that *don't* focus on combat. So the press to
end is much more useful than you might otherwise think. But then again, I have
to admit on using a Police Station from time to time... =)
Halcyan 2
TigToad
> >>Hell Hound
> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>>
>
> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever
> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-)
Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what kind of deck?
I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10 of this guy on top of
the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have). I'd love to build a deck with like
20 of this cute little puppy... but just cna't seem to find
justification for how bad he is.
Daniel
TigToad
CurtAdams
I have a Tremere maneuver combat deck and I would definitely put in some
Apportations if I had any. However, Tremere are just not the mightiest
of combat clans and I would certainly want MoM for when I'm facing
Potence and Assamite clans. Apportation complements, not wallpapers, MoM.
I'd go for about a 50/50 split myself. I hope the Cam set includes Apportation
and omits MoM, which will nicely completement the old Jyhad set.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Cameron
> with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its corner-case
> usefulness even more.
This reminds me of a pickup game at gencon 2 or 3 years ago. I was
preying on a Tremere/!Tremere thingy with theft, apportation, walk of
flame. I was playing Ravnos Trap, Zipgun, Apporition combat. When
the Tremere player (might have been Jeff Thompson?) couldn't press to
end combat I ended up (eventually) hitting his vamps into torpor. So
yeah, one way presses can be murder.
Cameron
Chris Berger
"CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020220215143...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> halcyann2@aol writes:
>
> >>Movement of the Mind - was already vastly inferior to Apportation. Bond
> >>with the Mountain and Flow Within the Mountain have cut into its
corner-case
> >>usefulness even more.
>
> >Definitely wrong. Movement of the Mind is an *awesome* card and I use it
*far*
> >more often than Apportation. (The fact that I only have 4 Apportations is
> >beside the point. Even if I had a hundred, I'd still use MoM more).
>
> >Yeah, Apportation is the ultimate in Tremere/!Tremere decks. But there
are
> >plenty of Tremere/!Tremere decks that *don't* focus on combat. So the
press to
> >end is much more useful than you might otherwise think. But then again, I
have
> >to admit on using a Police Station from time to time... =)
>
facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you.
Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round,
you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a
combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM.
Tobias
> Petri Wessman wrote:
> > As we all know, some cards in this game as totally or near-totally
> > useless. That's no huge tragedy, design mistakes always happen - but
> > sometimes wallpaper becomes ex-wallpaper because of new cards.
> >
> > Let's see:
> >
> > Total wallpaper
> > ---------------
> >
> > - Concealed Weapon
> >
> > Absolutely no reason to use this over Concealed Weapon.
>
> Granted. Still, there are fractal corner cases where someone steals
> your cards (Agaitas) and you don't want to use anything more powerful
> than you actually need. So if you've got a deck full of weenies
> with no superior OBF and no weapons other than .44s, you could in
> theory be paranoid enough about Agaitas's controller using your
> Disguised Weapons to whip out an Assault Rifle that you restrain
> yourself to just Concealed Weapon (which is equal to DW for your
> purposes).
And, under any xCL environments, this will double the bang, since
there are 2 different cards. (Note: THIS IS NOT THE START OF A xCL vs.
NCL debate!)
Tobias
Deventer
Petri Wessman
Chris> "Petri Wessman" <or...@akumiitti.fi> wrote in message
Chris> news:7x3czwd...@orava.akumiitti.fi...
>>
>> Near-wallpaper
>> --------------
>>
Chris> There's a *whole* lot of near-wallpaper to be considered. A small sampling:
Chris> Phobia and Mummify are both horribly bad S:CE cards for a clan
Chris> that has access to Presence. There are 33 vampires with
Chris> Serpentis. 9 of them do not have Presence. Of those 9, only 5
Chris> are of 5 capacity or less (if you can afford to pay the blood
Chris> for larger vampires, you can afford to use Presence). The
Chris> others are Petru Sipos, Murat, Suhailah, and Unre. Not really
Chris> the kind of vampires to be afraid of combat. But at least 3 of
Chris> them have <for> so they can use Rapid Healing... =P
Well, I think both could be useful... well, at least Phobia. It
provides a "backup" combat-ends for those cases where you get
Immortally Grappled (or something like that). I haven't used it yet
myself, but I don't think it's useless.
Mummify... well, it's a kooky card, but the "go to torpor" effect just
might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though...
Chris> Coagulate Blood - really, *really* should have been combined
Chris> with Exuding Blood into one card: 1R damage (only usable at
Chris> long range... or not, who cares?), 2R damage to an ally.
Chris> Damage cannot be prevented. (And so on for superior.) As is,
Chris> the card is utter crap, even *if* you're afraid of allies.
Yeah, this one is bad, agreed. But it's free, just might find use in
an Assamite weenie horde deck (?).
Chris> Weakness - all I can say is, "what???"
I've actually tried to use this card, not with much success
granted. Burning master-disciplines can be handy at times, some decks
rely on them.
Chris> Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use
Chris> Pushing the Limits is almost imeasurable. And the amount by
Chris> which I would prefer to use Fists of Death instead of Pushing
Chris> the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury has no place in
Chris> any decent deck.
Here I have to disagree. I have a "Skinheads'R'Us" !Brujah deck which
has 8-9 Bloodbrother Ambushes in it... together with Trap/Press,
Growing Fury is eminently useful for the Bloodbrother allies (who ony
have inferior potence, and can't really afford to pay blood for
potence strikes).
What happens is:
!Brujah takes action (bleed for +X, etc)
Some minion blocks
Play Trap
If the minion maneuvers, use the built-in 2R
If not, Immortal Grapple and strike for 2 hand damage
next round, Growing Fury (and the Bloodbrother usually dies)
Of course, any decent combat deck will wipe out the Bloodbrothers, but
they will do the 2 damage in almost any case, often more, and are
totally expendable - people are unwilling to "waste" good combat cards
on them :)
Chris> Twisting the Knife - can't believe you missed this one.
Right you are. This one is crap :)
Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife
Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so
Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that
Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is),
Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I
Chris> consider it a service to humanity.
Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be
useful. I'll have to try it out sometime...
//Petri
Petri Wessman
>> >>Hell Hound
>> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
>> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>>
>>
>> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever
>> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-)
tigtoad> Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what
tigtoad> kind of deck? I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10
tigtoad> of this guy on top of the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have).
tigtoad> I'd love to build a deck with like 20 of this cute little
tigtoad> puppy... but just cna't seem to find justification for how
tigtoad> bad he is.
Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush
deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the
blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde
horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave
the Semedis free to rush/bleed, without needing to include too many
wakes. Include some Charismas to get the dogs out cheap, and some Left
For Deads / Infections to keep them alive. Maybe some Necromancy to
reanimate them it they get killed. "Here Fido, have some more
blood. Now, kill!" :)
Dunno, will probably suck, but I'll have to try it out ;)
Should be amusing at least...
//Orava
Derek Ray
TigToad <tig...@qwest.net> mumbled something about:
>> >>Hell Hound
>> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
>> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>>
>>
>> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really see ever
>> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer :-)
>
>Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what kind of deck?
Hell Hound costs 2 pool. If he blocks a single bleed for 2 or two
bleeds for ANY amount, he pays for himself.
Hell Hound can't be Seduced, and he doesn't mind someone who's Daring
the Dawn. If you have a Strained Vitae Supply in play, he can be your
best friend; especially if he has a Zip Gun as well. He listens to the
KRCG radio station all the time.
He's an extra minion who regenerates for a cost of one action and two
pool. His biggest downside is that he can't take actions, so he can't
go burn the Path for you, say, or anything ELSE it's convenient to have
a disposable minion do -- and if someone can kill him when he blocks,
then he goes away forever, although Left for Dead is amusing.
You would be surprised how many zero-stealth bleeds of [X] occur during
a game "just because you're tapped out", though. Hell Hound ensures
that you're never tapped out.
I will say this; his cost of one action to recruit is probably more
detrimental than the 2 pool you spend to get him. It's tough to find
extra action slots in most decks. (My Force of Will/Red Herring deck
had plenty of action slots, since it had to come up with 2 things to do
per minion per turn that weren't bleeds. Hell Hound made a great
addition.)
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Wouter Kuyper
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<rJUc8.27689$UT6....@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
Nystulc
>And, under any xCL environments, this will double the bang, since
>there are 2 different cards. (Note: THIS IS NOT THE START OF A xCL vs.
>NCL debate!)
Are you sure? :)
Chris Berger
>
> Well, I think both could be useful... well, at least Phobia. It
> provides a "backup" combat-ends for those cases where you get
> Immortally Grappled (or something like that). I haven't used it yet
> myself, but I don't think it's useless.
>
but you have to wait *5* friggin turns around the table before you get one
S:CE, which wasted an action and a card (which could have been a Majesty or
a Behind You!. Or even Dodge). After *10* turrns around the table, you
have netted yourself a S:CE at the cost of an action (when compared to
Majesty). I'd rather have a Smoke Grenade. Settites, almost more than any
other clan, need every action they can get. Perhaps in some kind of weird
Settite w/ Auspex "intercept-and-run-away" deck with at least 10 Phobias,
you could manage to make some use out of them. But even then, it's awfully
weak. I'd rather use equipment to try and survive combat. Even though the
equipment is unreliable and costs pool, at least it's usable every combat.
> Mummify... well, it's a kooky card, but the "go to torpor" effect just
> might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though...
>
We had this conversation at game night a couple weeks ago. Basically, the
only way we could think of to take advantage of this was with pre-reprint
Fame, when it hurt the controller's prey. Even then, it would have been
sketchy as hell. You could use Regeneration for bloat, but if you already
have fortitude, there are easier ways of getting into torpor. You could use
a variety of ways (Sacrificial Lamb, Nephandus, etc.) to burn your vampire
and then Possess him back, but that really accomplishes very little. You
can do it with Soul Gem, but really, there are far better ways to do that.
As far as I can tell, there's not really a way to make use of Mummify. It
was just designed by the same people that gave us Eyes of the Serpent. ;)
> Chris> Growing Fury - the amount by which I would prefer to use
> Chris> Pushing the Limits is almost imeasurable. And the amount by
> Chris> which I would prefer to use Fists of Death instead of Pushing
> Chris> the Limits is pretty large too. Growing Fury has no place in
> Chris> any decent deck.
>
> Here I have to disagree. I have a "Skinheads'R'Us" !Brujah deck which
> has 8-9 Bloodbrother Ambushes in it... together with Trap/Press,
> Growing Fury is eminently useful for the Bloodbrother allies (who ony
> have inferior potence, and can't really afford to pay blood for
> potence strikes).
>
Personally, I'd either pay the one life for Fists of Death, or else just use
Increased Strength + Undead Strength. It's one more card, but you can use
it first round too. I suppose Growing Fury is alright in such a weird deck,
but it's still not *great*. Still near-wallpaper as far as I'm concerned.
> What happens is:
>
> !Brujah takes action (bleed for +X, etc)
> Some minion blocks
> Play Trap
> If the minion maneuvers, use the built-in 2R
> If not, Immortal Grapple and strike for 2 hand damage
> next round, Growing Fury (and the Bloodbrother usually dies)
>
Or play Undead Strength first round, Undead Strength second round. One
extra card, true, but you deal more damage if they press to end or kill you
first round. Of course, a S:CE ruins your day either way.
> Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife
> Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so
> Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that
> Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is),
> Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I
> Chris> consider it a service to humanity.
>
> Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be
> useful. I'll have to try it out sometime...
>
I'd like to see it. Personally, I find it to be even worse than Cull the
Herd, which isn't very good either. If you've already got them in torpor,
what do you really need to see their hand for? You pretty much know what
they might have, if you've been paying attention, and you certainly know
they don't have combat defense. If you can, rush them again. If you can't,
their hand will be totally different by your next turn anyway. There are a
few cases where seeing your opponent's hand after you beat up their minion
is useful, but not enough to actually get this card into any deck, ever.
Chris Berger
"Wouter Kuyper" <wouter...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:155a2de5.02022...@posting.google.com...
> I always like "Up Yours"....
>
wallpaper. 8)
James Coupe
<ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>> Chris> Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife
>> Chris> (which at least has an optional press at superior). I am so
>> Chris> convinced that this card will never go in one of my decks that
>> Chris> I keep only one copy (to remind myself of how stupid it is),
>> Chris> and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I
>> Chris> consider it a service to humanity.
>>
>> Dunno, I have a sneaking feeling this card may actually be
>> useful. I'll have to try it out sometime...
>>
>I'd like to see it. Personally, I find it to be even worse than Cull the
>Herd, which isn't very good either. If you've already got them in torpor,
>what do you really need to see their hand for? You pretty much know what
>they might have, if you've been paying attention, and you certainly know
>they don't have combat defense.
Because you might be playing bruise and bleed, or bruise and vote, with
this as your first action of the turn. Rush a handy vampire with an
archon as your first action, torporise them, and then plan the rest of
your turn knowing whether they have intercept or bleed bounce.
It's definitely not a good card for a deliberately focused deck style.
Nystulc
>Tortured Confession - almost as bad as Twisting the Knife (which at least
>has an optional press at superior). I am so convinced that this card will
>never go in one of my decks that I keep only one copy (to remind myself of
>how stupid it is), and eat the rest. They don't taste all that great, but I
>consider it a service to humanity.
It can be valuable to know the cards of your opponent's hand. The problem with
Tortured Confession is the timing. You put it in a combat deck, and then play
it *after* you have defeated your opponent. Chances are, you already know at
this point that he lacks adequate combat defence. Meanwhile, before you can
play it, it sits around clogging your hand and interfering with your chances of
combat success.
Another card that is wallpaper because of silly timing is (the reworded version
of) Cardinal Sin: Failure of Mission. The original version might have been
remotely useful, to play on your prey's vampires when your grandprey blocks
them, but the "corrected" version is just silly. If you have just blocked a
vampire, and are about to enter combat, you do not need a card that helps you
get into combat with that vampire. What you need are combat cards so you can
kill him NOW, not something that burns 2 blood and thereby increases the odds
of your final death.
Not to mention the thematic silliness of punishing someone for failing in an
action that you yourself just blocked.
I would advocate a rollback to the original text, except that even the original
version of the card was so underpowered as to be barely worth playing. If any
revisions had been made to this card, it should have been to remove the 2 blood
cost, or eliminate the burn option.
lehrbuch
> > might be handy in combo with something else. Dunno what, though...
> >
> was just designed by the same people that gave us Eyes of the Serpent. ;)
No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use.
The correct sequence is:
1) Play Serpentis: Discipline master card on a big vampire of your
predator.
2) Play Temptation on said big vampire.
3) When you get temporary control of the big vampire, use it to bleed
your prey.
4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps.
5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes
the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing
someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted
(being an Archon).
* lehrbuch
Chris Berger
"lehrbuch" <ri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5fee5473.02022...@posting.google.com...
>
> No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use.
> The correct sequence is:
>
> 1) Play Serpentis: Discipline master card on a big vampire of your
> predator.
>
> 2) Play Temptation on said big vampire.
>
> 3) When you get temporary control of the big vampire, use it to bleed
> your prey.
>
> 4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps.
>
> 5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes
> the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing
> someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted
> (being an Archon).
>
The Nosferatu Stuff
> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 19:21:57 -0700, TigToad <tig...@qwest.net> said:
>
> >> >>Hell Hound
> >> I would claim that various new cards have made this card at
> >> least semi-usable. I may be wrong :)>>
> >>
> >> Umm, yeah. Still not real good. Sure, he's funny, but I can't really
see ever
> >> using him in an actual deck. In booster draft, however, he's a killer
:-)
>
> tigtoad> Please, please, please tell me what use he is and in what
> tigtoad> kind of deck? I have a TON of these guys... (I bought like 10
> tigtoad> of this guy on top of the 30 or so boxes of Jyhad I have).
> tigtoad> I'd love to build a deck with like 20 of this cute little
> tigtoad> puppy... but just cna't seem to find justification for how
> tigtoad> bad he is.
>
> Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush
> deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the
> blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde
> horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave
How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't equip it, he
can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or Hburg. Is there any way
for you to get them on? That is why everyone uses zip guns.
--
Aaron
The Nosferatu Stuff
James Coupe
Stuff <roans...@yahoo.com> writes:
>How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't equip it, he
>can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or Hburg. Is there any way
>for you to get them on? That is why everyone uses zip guns.
A number of people have suggested Succubus Club and Reg Driscoll.
Derek Ray
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> mumbled something about:
>"lehrbuch" <ri...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:5fee5473.02022...@posting.google.com...
>>
>> No way! Mummify is excellent! It is just a bit complicated to use.
>> The correct sequence is:
>>
>> 4) Big vampire gets blocked and plays Mummify in combat. Opps.
>>
>> 5) And to finish: Samat Ramal-Ra, Archon (Follow of Set) diablerizes
>> the big vampire. This is at stealth, because he's diablerizing
>> someone in your own torpor region, also he can't be blood hunted
>> (being an Archon).
>>
>Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify.
Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot
provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to
waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor.
Chris Berger
"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pn8b7ucjcq74huf6h...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify.
>
> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot
> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to
> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor.
>
but a) who cares which vampire is the one to rescue? Better it be the one
that has Temptation on it, so he has to spend his own blood. Doesn't matter
much to *force* them to use another vampire. They're going to want to
anyway. b) You have to get blocked and not get Obedienced, grappled, or
TB'd. c) With Daring, you get your bleed through *and* you get the vampire
in torpor. With the "bleed and Mummify combo", you only get one of the two,
and if you don't get blocked, you can't cycle the Mummify.
One crappy combo that barely works doesn't make a good card.
Halcyan 2
>facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you.
>Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round,
>you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a
>combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM.
Of course Bond with the Mountain (esp. the Dodge) is awesome. But Bond with the
Mountain + Movement of the Mind is even better. You can manuever with the MoM,
you can Dodge with the Bond, you can use the Bond Press, and the MoM can serve
as an additional press if necessary. Together, they're *almost* as good as a
S:CE.
But there are plenty of reasons why you shouldn't simply replace all the MoM
with Bond with the Mountain. Against many forms of combat, the manuever really
shines. BwtM is a dodge strike, so an IG hoses you. Also, close range with the
!Gangrel (or any Celerity clan) isn't particularly helpful. Though they're
probably packing manuevers too, the MoM can't hurt. BwtM actually costs blood
while MoM is free. Yeah, Tremere usually don't have a problem getting blood,
but there are plenty of times when I end up with an empty Tremere who can't
play the Thaumaturgy Dodge (and wishes he had the MoM manuever instead). And
finally, using BwtM requires you to devote your strike to that. In many cases
you might want to do something else (so the MoM manuever/press might be
better). And against many decks, manuever + Theft of Vitae might very well be
more useful than dodge with Bond.
Halcyan 2
CurtAdams
>But wouldn't you prefer to play Bond With the Mountain instead? If you're
>facing a killer combat deck, Bond With the Mountain might save you.
>Movement will sit there saying "if only you could survive the first round,
>you'd be alright." I don't think Apportation wallpapers MoM. I think a
>combination of Apportation and the new Visceratika cards wallpapers MoM.
No, Flow With the Mountain is *only* a press, *and* it costs 1 blood.
With an Apportation/MoM mix you can maneuver with one and press
with the other, so you'll almost always be able to press in or out as
desired. FWtM would leave you short on maneuvers so you may
get creamed by that POT combat deck which you could otherwise
maneuver and press away from. When fighting non-combat decks
you'll be paying blood for the FWtM press and occaisionally getting
slapped because you missed the maneuver.
I wouldn't much want FWtM if I weren't playing a Tremere/Gargoyle
deck (don't hold your breath on that). I'd rather a Do Not Replace
Boxed In than pay a blood. Even in a Gargoyle deck there's not
much a POT/FOR clan will do that will be blocked and is that essential
to finish.
Petri Wessman
>> Well, I haven't tried this yet, but I have an idea of a Semedi rush
>> deck which would have lots of Hell Hounds with .44 Magnums doing the
>> blocking. A dog with a Magnum would totally foil lots of weenie horde
>> horrors, and might prove troublesome to others, too. It would leave
The> How are you going to get the .44 on the hell hound? He can't
The> equip it, he can't take actions. He cant get it from a rave or
The> Hburg. Is there any way for you to get them on? That is why
The> everyone uses zip guns.
Red Driscoll. That's why I was thinking of a Semedi deck.
//Petri
Noal McDonald
> I will say this; his cost of one action to recruit is probably more
> detrimental than the 2 pool you spend to get him. It's tough to find
> extra action slots in most decks.
Y'know...you could play Jake Washington during your master phase and
use him to hire the Hellhound, leaving your vampires to do other
things.
Regards,
Noal
Emmanuel Martin
worst wallpaper card ever.
At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered
chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL
environments.
But Oxford University !!!
Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D
action. What a dream !!!
I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys :
Cammie All stars, foreach clan
Appolonius
Wilhelm Waldburg
Lazarus
Tura Vaughn
Judah
Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
Radeyah
Independant All stars
Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
Tereza Rostas
maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
Husamettin
Sabbat All Stars
Quentin
Caitlin (errated version)
Yong-Sun, Harmonist
Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra
Bronwen
Hannibal
Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
Matteus
Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce
Rex, the Necronomist
Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
Lithrac
Mary the Black
Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge
them with wallpaperness.
Emmanuel
Alex Broadhead
OK, I'm going to leave the others to their own particular champions,
but I can't ignore this one:
> Quentin
> Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge
> them with wallpaperness.
Dude - have you read the card?
Not only is Quentin one of the two !Ventrue with all in-clan at
superior (and one of the only four !Ventrue with superior FO), he also
has one of the best specials in the game! Even his off-clan
disciplines don't suck: obtenebration at inferior is one of the more
widespread off-clans among !Ventrue, and make him useful in
!Ven/Lasombra hybrids. (OK, so the celerity isn't real useful.)
Are you getting hung up on the fact that he's a 9-cap Bishop? Re-read
his special. He's really a 9-cap Sabbat 'Inner Circle' member. He
outvotes any other single vampire on the table. (And is a great
target for Cardinal Benediction.)
On the other hand, his picture does bite the great furry wazoo. Which
is another argument against trying to use him for wallpaper - do you
really want him staring down at you from the walls, all squished up
and blurry?
There are _much_ less useful !Ventrue, though I'd be hard pressed to
call any of them wallpaper. Personal least favorites are Dylan and
Vincent, who are loaded up with off-clan disciplines, and Dominique
and Kyle don't see a lot of use around me (Kyle for his inferior fo,
Dominique 'cause she's always seems too expensive for what she brings
to a deck). But Dylan gets used off clan for do/pt and his +bleed
from what I've seen, and Vincent's fo/po and/or fo/th have their uses
as well.
Hope that helps,
Alex
!Ventrue Newsletter Editor-in-Exile
Chris Berger
> In message <3C7459C5...@qwest.net>,
>
> Hell Hound costs 2 pool. If he blocks a single bleed for 2 or two
> bleeds for ANY amount, he pays for himself.
>
*more* advantages to being a vampire. Granted, you can play with Memories
of Mortality and build your deck around allies, but their are better allies
than the Hell Hound.
Noal McDonald
>>Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and
Mummify.
>
> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot
> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to
> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor.
Mummify angle only works if minion is blocked. No combat means no
Mummify.
Meanwhile DtD guarantees both a successful bleed (why not use Force of
Will while you're at it?) and the minion going to torpor. Also....many
more vampires already have Fortitude than Serpentis, lessening the
need for tons of Discipline cards.
Regards,
Noal
Chris Berger
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020222030300...@mb-fi.aol.com...
>
> Of course Bond with the Mountain (esp. the Dodge) is awesome. But Bond
with the
> Mountain + Movement of the Mind is even better. You can manuever with the
MoM,
> you can Dodge with the Bond, you can use the Bond Press, and the MoM can
serve
> as an additional press if necessary. Together, they're *almost* as good as
a
> S:CE.
>
;)
Chris Berger
"Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message
news:10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com...
>
> But Oxford University !!!
> Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D
> action. What a dream !!!
>
> Wilhelm Waldburg
>
Aww... Wilhelm's one of my favourites. He has aus/cel (and PRE/FOR), which
makes him perfect to use the outferiors in a Daughters deck. My "Wilhelm's
Bitches" DoC deck with 2 Wil's, and 2 of each Daughter was a riot. No
defense at all, but the bleed/vote/choir monsters will freak drive you to
death if you leave them alone long enough.
> Tura Vaughn
>
She has some undeniable, ehm... assets.
> Quentin
>
I gotta go with Alex on this one... Quentin??? He's either my favourite or
second favourite !Ven (Gustav and Lazverinus also being awesome).
> Caitlin (errated version)
>
What errata'd version?
> Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
> Lithrac
> Mary the Black
>
Also Unre, and Terry.
LSJ
> >
> What errata'd version?
He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the
Sabbat version (5 capacity).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Noal McDonald
> But Oxford University !!!
> Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it
> burned as a D action. What a dream !!!
I agree. Bleh.
> I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys :
> Cammie All stars, foreach clan
>
> Appolonius
A 10 cap Brujah with inferior Potence? Not bloodly likely.
> Wilhelm Waldburg
> Lazarus
Both are 9 caps with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior. One's a
Prince, the other is a Primogen with a useful special. You could do
much worse. Nakova and Elisabetta Romano come to mind.
> Tura Vaughn
2 Brujah? She's an 8 cap Primogen with all 3 in-clan disciplines at
superior. You could do much worse. Appolonius, for example.
> Judah
A 6 cap Primogen with POT/ani/dom? eeh. Not great, not shitty. Could
be awesome in a deck that uses all 3 discplines, though. I'd nominate
Regilio as the most pointless Nossie.
> Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
I've used him in a Dom/Cel/Pot deck with the Euro Brujah. He
absolutely rocked there. Like Cornelius Ottavio, he's very useful in a
deck that doesn't center around the Malkavian's normal disciplines.
> Radeyah
Great in a Brujah rush deck. We even have a player that plays nothing
but Setites so her special comes in handy quite a bit. If it wasn't
for the +1 Bleed and being a Prince, Marcellus would be among the
worst vampires in the game. I've made an effort to make an Aus/Cel/Pro
deck and there just weren't enough decent vampires to pull it off.
> Independant All stars
>
> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
I've been giving thought to a Quietus/Thaumaturgy deck that does a lot
of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though.
> Tereza Rostas
Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless.
> maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
Kemintiri rocks. None of the Setites are really very poor.
> Husamettin
8 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior? Also has that
Potence and Presence angle to tie in with Brujah. Husamettin is The
Man.
> Sabbat All Stars
(You're really going to have to stretch here. Most of the Sabbat
Vampires are awesome.)
> Quentin
He's got all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and cancels the votes
of other vampires! How can you go wrong? Sorry...but this guy rocks
the house in a !Ventrue vote deck. Dylan is probably the worst vampire
of this clan, but even he's usable.
> Caitlin (errated vesion)
A 6 cap Primogen with 2 in-clan disciplines at superior? She still is
awesome. Pound for pound, Blaise is the worst vampire in this clan.
> Yong-Sun, Harmonist
10 Cap Cardinal with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and a
unique special. What's the problem here? Truth be told, none of the
vampires in this clan are poor.
> Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra
If there is, he fits the bill.
> Bronwen
10 Cap Priscus with all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and a useful
special. See Young-Sun above.
> Hannibal
See Young-Sun above.
> Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
See Young-Sun above.
> Matteus
See Bronwen above.
> Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce
Built in intercept is always good. Minor Vicissitude is the only knock
against him.
> Rex, the Necronomist
No argument. This guy is awful.
> Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
> Lithrac
A 5 cap with 3 in-clan disciplines, with one at superior AND two
useful specials? The only thing he's missing is the sesame seed bun.
You want fries with that?
> Mary the Black
A 7 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines, 2 at superior AND she has
built-in aggravated hand damage. She's wallpaper?!? What kind of crack
are you smoking?
> Well I am waiting for all these nominees advocates, as I charge
> them with wallpaperness.
Given your suggestions, I charge you with 30 lashes with a wet noodle
and writing the full definition of wallpaper on the blackboard 500
times.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
VEKN Prince of Metro Detroit
Curevei
>
>Cammie All stars, foreach clan
>
>Appolonius
>Wilhelm Waldburg
>Lazarus
>Tura Vaughn
These last three are all kind of expensive, but they are hardly useless.
>Judah
>Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
Been seeing him more lately as decks want pot/DOM.
>Radeyah
The only one out of this group that I never see played is Apple. Though,
Radeyah is fairly challenging.
>Independant All stars
>
>Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
>Tereza Rostas
>maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
>Husamettin
Again, the last three are okay, they have their disciplines.
>Sabbat All Stars
>
>Quentin
Huh?
>Caitlin (errated version)
Huh?
>Yong-Sun, Harmonist
>Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra
>Bronwen
>Hannibal
I see him surprisingly often in !Malk decks.
>Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
>Matteus
Voting !Toreador that unusual?
>Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce
>Rex, the Necronomist
>
>Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
>Lithrac
>Mary the Black
For Bloodlines clan decks you don't have a lot of choice.
Nystulc
>Embrace costs 2 blood. There are advantages to being an ally, but there are
>*more* advantages to being a vampire. Granted, you can play with Memories
>of Mortality and build your deck around allies, but there are better allies
>than the Hell Hound.
Well, more to the point, there are better allies that are either unique or
require a clan. Hell Hound is probably balanced compared to, say, Arcanum
Investigator.
I suspect that Hell Hound may be coming into his own. His main advantage is
his power of regeneration. Unfortunately, this has not amounted to much in the
past, it takes only 2 damage to kill him, and you cannot regenerate when you
are dead. But now, an array of tricks exist for the preservation of his life.
Left for Dead, Martyr's Resilience, Infection, Resurrection
Also, the disadvantages of being a vampire may be increasing, with the
appearance of new cards like Beast Meld - unblockable for vampires, and does
not induce torpor.
Chris Berger
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3C76A937...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > "Emmanuel Martin" <e...@boursorama.com> wrote in message
> > > Caitlin (errated version)
> > >
> > What errata'd version?
>
> He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the
> Sabbat version (5 capacity).
>
broken. Kudos to the stealth-reprint team. ;)
James Coupe
Berger <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>> He probably means the SW version (6 capacity) - a change from the
>> Sabbat version (5 capacity).
>>
>Sweet enola gay! I hadn't noticed that. Wow... she's suddenly not so
>broken. Kudos to the stealth-reprint team. ;)
Erm, on a purely technical point, this was advertised at the time of
release.
Raille
Noal McDonald wrote:
>
> e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) wrote:
> > But Oxford University !!!
> > Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it
> > burned as a D action. What a dream !!!
>
> I agree. Bleh.
>
You all forgot this wonderfully wallpapered item.
Pere Lachaise, France [DS]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 3 pool
Master: unique location.
You may place one of your burned vampires on this card. You may use a
master phase action to move 1 blood from the blood bank to this vampire.
If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the
vampire in the <ready> region at the end of the master phase and burn
this card. Any minion can burn this card as a (D) action and send the
vampire on it directly to the ash heap.
Pay three pool to get a card in play that is D removable and if your
unlucky enough to have placed a vampire there and wasted a whole lot of
master phase actions, you Might get a vampire returned to play. Mostly
you will be out 3 pool, 1 vampire and a bunch of master phases.
Raille
Chris Berger
"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:3C76BD6B...@spamcop.net...
>
>
> Pere Lachaise, France [DS]
> Cardtype: Master
> Cost: 3 pool
>
> unlucky enough to have placed a vampire there and wasted a whole lot of
> master phase actions, you Might get a vampire returned to play. Mostly
> you will be out 3 pool, 1 vampire and a bunch of master phases.
>
burned. Just 3 pool and a bunch of master phases. Sounds like a good deal
to me. ;)
Xian
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:fMwd8.7645$%D5.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
[Wilhelm is wallpaper?]
> Aww... Wilhelm's one of my favourites. He has aus/cel (and PRE/FOR),
which
Gotta agree. Wilhelm is huge, yes...but he's so princely and stuff.
> makes him perfect to use the outferiors in a Daughters deck. My
"Wilhelm's
> Bitches" DoC deck with 2 Wil's, and 2 of each Daughter was a riot. No
Even in light of the fact that I rarely have good deck names, I think that
naming this "Willy's Bitches" would be much funnier. :)
[re: inclusion of Lazarus on the list]
Well, I probably should be defending Lazarus, but I just can't. In fact, I
don't really like any of the high-capacity Tremere Primogen. Especially
Cassandra. Halcyan always yells at me about that, but I don't care.
Neither of them have anything really exciting outside of their clan
disciplines, and their specials, while okay, aren't amazing, by any means.
Though I would actually nominate...yeah, I gotta go with Noal on this one.
Elisabetta Romano. Though Lydia Van Cuelen comes pretty close, even *with*
her +1 bleed. And Sabine Lafitte isn't too far behind that.
Xian
Reyda
> I think Oxford University is a very serious challenger for the tite of
> worst wallpaper card ever.
>
> At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered
> chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL
> environments.
no you won't play that evenif someone pays you to do so. Pack some Sawed of
Shotgun instead : same price, does R damage and you can use the famous
dragon breath rounds on top.
> But Oxford University !!!
> Pay 2 pool, pay 2X pool to get X votes, and get it burned as a D
> action. What a dream !!!
what a nightmare, you mean. I heard of someone who made a Brujah Parity
shift deck using this card. He could get as low on pool as he wanted to to
play parity shift three times in a row. That mus hust in a 5 p game =)
So there's a use even for that waste of paper =p
> I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys :
>
> Cammie All stars, foreach clan
>
> Appolonius
Yes. He rocks. I played it numerous time, back to old jyhad era. (especially
when we played under 4cl) He makes a good combinations with crusher, he has
+1 bleed, and has an optional press so you use less cards. Should he be a
prince, he would be one of my favorite vampires ever.
> Wilhelm Waldburg
well, you still have some use for him. It's a 9 cap prince, yes, but he has
useful out of clan discipline depending on what you're playing. I used him
along with democritus to gain stealth via Alacrity (don't laugh ;) ) mainly
for calling votes at +2 stealth. Granted that now you have better options.
> Tura Vaughn
In a brujah dominate deck. She is a good connection between your Anvil, Don
Cruez and even Theo bell =)
> Judah
played him in a Giovanni/ Nosfe deck. Pot, Ani, Dom, Nec. Very useful, along
with Enzo and Shane Grimald.
> Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
played him in an early version of a thoughts betrayed deck (think didi
meyers) since he is still one of the youngest vampires with DOM. Used him
some time later in an plain and simple Eurobrujah deck. Wonderful =)
> Radeyah
Kamel used her in a toreador/brujah celerity/potence/presence rush deck. He
even used her special once =)
> Independant All stars
>
> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
yes and i'm not the only one. Think about recursion...
Patrizia Fetch a ghoul escort from your ash heap. Vykos recruits a War ghoul
( or better : let Lambach Summon a war ghoul ;) ) Burn the Ghoul escort to
satisfy card text. Use the warghoul at will =D now recruit the ghoul escort
from the ash heap asap. If you recruit another war ghoul, burn the ghoul
escort again and again. If your war ghoul dies, play compel the spirit with
Patrizia and burn the ghoul escort again... You have to work a little but
her ability don't suck. She is just a bit overcosted.
A 4 capacity Patrizia would be in both my assamite qui/tha deck and my
giovanni weather/nihilo deck
> Tereza Rostas
I used her for potence. She's not so bad for an 8 cap. You can use her for
Aus too...
> maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
She IS powerful. I used her in a thaumaturgy obfuscate dominate deck. Lots
of heavy bleeds, hidden lurkers and steal blood a gogo.
> Husamettin
he is currently in my assamite with potence deck. For two more pool i can
have Thetmes. But he is already in, 4 copies. Hussametin is a nice backup.
> Sabbat All Stars
>
> Quentin
one of the best vampires in the whole jyhad. You fool. Can cancel the votes
of any vampire, each political action. Gives a headache to moste political
vote. When he's ready, you can put into play Demonstration for more
headaches...
> Caitlin (errated version)
she's the cheapest vampire with PRO + ANI. She has aus and dom. She is
useful. You can play !gangrel without fortitude, you know that =) think
about the new posibilites with Beast meld =) she can call votes totally
unblockable without going to torpor or spending more than 2 blood !
> Yong-Sun, Harmonist
OBF THA again. But i never tried since i prefer kemintri =)
> Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra
Ramiro rocks. In a vote deck, along with gratiano and Angelica : call votes
in a forgotten labyrinth... Equip with weapons during combat... Play hidden
pathways so your army of embraces will have a cool time Shadow twining
everyone around...
> Bronwen
Played her for a long time. Dodge even when opponent played thought
betrayed.Priscus : try Eternal vigilance. All in clan discipline, plus
obtenebration. Add jacko, sela and some Black metamorphosis. Have fun. Add
stealth when you bleed or rush. recruit some Shades, and dodge on the first
round of combat to see your opponent taking damage from nowhere => fully
compatible with eternal vigilance
> Hannibal
Oh my fxxx god ! you must be insane !!! he was the favorite of my old coma
deck. Come on ! Cardinal = 3 votes. 10 cap = you wont' change my vote like
that. Special = I steal blood from you. And if you try to block me, i cycle
stealth. Or I put you in torpor. I can Pulse that canaille, bleed my
predator for loads and switch places with cardinal + priscus votes +
Televotecouting = too much voices for you.
> Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
I played her with much success !! again, Dark metamorphosis. Again, stealth
when you bleed, when you Mind rape, when you rush. You don't want to end up
in combat with the wrong guy, dont you ?
> Matteus
I played him in a CEL/VIC deck with some obf and ani in the mix. Along with
Anton and Blaise. He is wonderful, guy. And he still have 3 votes. You try
to bleed me ? okay, block with loads of intercept, watch your hand... Give
you -2 stealth, -2 hand damage and then hit you with 2 aggravated for the
fun. come again if you dare !
> Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce
Built in intercept is one of the best ability you can have ! Anton has two
more advantage : ANI, which is the king discipline concerning untap. AUS, of
course for mor intercept, and Obf to pull a nice ancient vampire Bone from
his pocket. Even without a weapon, what do you do against Carrion crows for
2 + an aggravated scorpion sting ? It's the one vampires who makes you
reluctant to minion tap / 5th...
> Rex, the Necronomist
i can't see no use... but if you think about it, without his inherent flaw,
he would be grossly overpowered. Ambush, Torn, Flesh, Immortal, 2 agg poke,
amaranth. Get rid of This Inner circle over here and Influence another Rex
at the end of your turn...
> Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
> Lithrac
What the ??? this gem can do agg damage, prevent loads of damage, play
amaranth safely in the beginning and endgames. What else do you need ?
> Mary the Black
Whoo hoo ! What do we have here ? Apart from DAI, which is useful for
condemnations, bleed and intercept, a vampire who has PRE, one of the most
useful disc in the game ! Bleed, combat ends, vote gain, ally steal. Obf :
more stealth ! cel : i can outmaneveur you and continue or stop a combat,
strike more. pot : grapple you ! throwing big objects on your face ! And on
top of that, she can burn on blood to make her hand damage aggravated for
the current round. *each round* and with cel as a backup, you *will* eat an
aggravated knuckle sandwich sooner or later. It's the only vampire in the
game with such power. Even with a zero card hand, she can torporize you fool
=) No wonder she's summoning my Heralds of Topeth.
I can't imagine you can criticize some of the best vampires in the game =)
hop the defense was well conducted ;)
reyda
James Coupe
>> At least, chainsaw can be played if you don't have enough gas powered
>> chainsaw, same for concealed weapon. And there are still xCL
>> environments.
>
>no you won't play that evenif someone pays you to do so. Pack some Sawed of
>Shotgun instead : same price, does R damage and you can use the famous
>dragon breath rounds on top.
As I said, Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage to a Werewolf Pack.
Sawed Off Shotgun can't be used; Chainsaw can.
Derek Ray
>"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:pn8b7ucjcq74huf6h...@4ax.com...
>> >>
>> >Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and Mummify.
>>
>> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot
>> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to
>> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor.
>>
>Sure. Assuming that anyone blocks your bleed for 1. Maybe it'll work once,
No, no, no. That won't be a bleed for 1. That will be the vampire with
the Serpentis skill card playing another Temptation on another vampire.
I bet THAT action gets blocked a whole lot more often -- and if it
doesn't, well, your vamps with all your disciplines are free to act, and
your list of Tempted vampires grows exponentially.
>but a) who cares which vampire is the one to rescue? Better it be the one
>that has Temptation on it, so he has to spend his own blood. Doesn't matter
>much to *force* them to use another vampire. They're going to want to
>anyway. b) You have to get blocked and not get Obedienced, grappled, or
>TB'd. c) With Daring, you get your bleed through *and* you get the vampire
Big deal. I get blocked a lot and not Obedienced, Grappled, or TB'd.
Lotsa-Block decks don't generally play Grapple or TB. They play things
like "Carrion Crows, Horrid Form, Chiropteran Marauder".
>in torpor. With the "bleed and Mummify combo", you only get one of the two,
>and if you don't get blocked, you can't cycle the Mummify.
Again, Temptation and Mummify gets you blocked a lot more. I like
Temptation/Mummify better than I like bleed/Daring, since you can't
count on the bleed being for any more than 1. If you don't block the
Temptation, that's GREAT for me, of course. If I really want someone to
block, then I just use your vampire to Tempt a vampire of your prey or
predator, as appropriate. They will be glad to block, I'm sure.
If you Tempt a vampire that CAN bump the bleed, that's a bonus, but
expecting it is a Strategy of Lose.
Requires lots of Temptations since you'll be wasting some of them, but
that's not REALLY all that difficult.
>One crappy combo that barely works doesn't make a good card.
You haven't thought it all the way through. I don't consider Mummify a
good card anyway, but this *is* an ugly way to make use of it.
Derek Ray
dhar...@my-deja.com (Noal McDonald) mumbled something about:
>Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>Or substitute Fortitude and Daring the Dawn for Serpentis and
>Mummify.
>>
>> Mummify inferior: Cannot rescue self, something that DtD cannot
>> provide. Allows you to omit the diablerie action and force someone to
>> waste a SECOND vampire's action fishing Bob out of torpor.
>
>Mummify angle only works if minion is blocked. No combat means no
>Mummify.
See message to Chris. Temptation with freshly Serpentized vampire tends
to increase chances of being blocked. =)
>Meanwhile DtD guarantees both a successful bleed (why not use Force of
>Will while you're at it?) and the minion going to torpor. Also....many
>more vampires already have Fortitude than Serpentis, lessening the
>need for tons of Discipline cards.
Force of Will is neat, but only a bleed for 2, and you have to find an
action to take to tap them ("hunt" is the usual last resort, but who
wants to give their prey's vampires blood?).
The real question here is: is an additional Temptation on an additional
vampire more useful than a bleed for 1 or 2?
Derek Ray
e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) mumbled something about:
>I wonder if someone ever played a few of these guys :
>
>Cammie All stars, foreach clan
>
>Appolonius
The classic nut-puncher.
>Wilhelm Waldburg
Is a Ventrue Prince with PRE/DOM/FOR, which is never bad.
>Lazarus
Before the Final Nights Assamites, was one of your best Thelerity
vampires... Flash, Theft, Blur, Theft, 1R to torpor (after skill card,
of course). Is still not that bad.
>Tura Vaughn
STILL the cheapest Brujah with PRE/POT/CEL.
>Judah
Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked:
Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste.
>Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
Has big Dominate. Never underestimate big Dominate.
>Radeyah
Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days.
>Sabbat All Stars
>
>Quentin
Quentin is the backbone of ANY !Ventrue voter deck. He ownz.
>Matteus
Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior.
>Anton ?
No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper.
>Lithrac
OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having
nut-munchers around is always nice.
>Mary the Black
Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid...
If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg.
James Coupe
<lor...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>Appolonius
>
>The classic nut-puncher.
Hard to do when he only has inferior Potence.
And inferior Fortitude will mean he doesn't feel it much anyway.
Chris Berger
>
> The real question here is: is an additional Temptation on an additional
> vampire more useful than a bleed for 1 or 2?
>
1 or 2 plus a dead vampire. And that one's kind of iffy. Since Settites
still have some problems defending, depriving your predator of their vampire
(Temptation only takes it on your turn, unfortunately) might help more than
that extra Temptation. On the other hand, you might get blocked, and might
be able to play the Mummify, which has absolutely no other use in your deck
than this combo.
I *like* the idea of using the extra vampire to play a Temptation, but I'd
rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all
seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway.
Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill,
then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen
vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just
Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my
deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either.
Daz
>
> As I said, Gargoyle Slave wanting to do damage to a Werewolf Pack.
>
> Sawed Off Shotgun can't be used; Chainsaw can.
Why cant SOS not be used agains WwP? SOS isn´t a meele wepon, and WwP
isn´t immune to guns :)
Chris Berger
> In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>,
> e...@boursorama.com (Emmanuel Martin) mumbled something about:
>
>
> Is a Ventrue Prince with PRE/DOM/FOR, which is never bad.
>
coolest.
> >Judah
>
> Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked:
>
> Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste.
>
For the Shane/Judah deck, eh? Heh... I'd like to see it work, actually. If
I had a few more of those two, I'd do it in a heartbeat (probably need about
3 of each. Probably need about 3-4 Don Cruez's for 5th Traditions, because
all the other vampires to use are huge, and you'll need to Minion Tap like a
mofo.
> >Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
>
> Has big Dominate. Never underestimate big Dominate.
>
and non-existant obfuscate. There are 14 other vampires of capacity 6 or
less that have big Dominate, 2 of them have obf, 3 have nec, 1 has pro.
Damaskenos' only stealth discipline is... Celerity. He's pretty much your
smallest candidate for a Euro-Brujah deck, but other than that, he really,
really does suck.
> >Radeyah
>
> Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days.
>
Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even
these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has
Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah
cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being
overcosted. Rigby is essentially the same, but is 1 capacity smaller and
has PRE. Bianca is the same as her but has +1 str instead of the
practically useless rush.
> >Matteus
>
> Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior.
>
And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play
an aus/cel/pre/vic deck??? He's the only one with all four disciplines.
I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost
anything instead of Fleshcraft.
> >Anton ?
>
> No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper.
>
How about this minion:
Big Eyes
10 capacity
Tremere
obf
Sabbat: +1 intercept
*grin* But yeah, Anton is not wallpaper. I think Violet Tremain is the
closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you
*can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that actually
works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. She's
the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means
anything...
> >Lithrac
>
> OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having
> nut-munchers around is always nice.
>
Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful
without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with
some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
acceptable for a 6 cap.
Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent
S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses
combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma...
you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have
Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi.
> >Mary the Black
>
> Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid...
>
> If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg.
>
Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being
Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a
combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to
Infernal.
Reyda
"Daz" <wb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b57b2dc9.0202...@posting.google.com...
erm... gargoyle slave *ally* cannot use ranged weapons. I wonder why this
limitation though...
Halcyan 2
>don't really like any of the high-capacity Tremere Primogen. Especially
>Cassandra. Halcyan always yells at me about that, but I don't care.
>Neither of them have anything really exciting outside of their clan
>disciplines, and their specials, while okay, aren't amazing, by any means.
Quiet Xian! No one disses my girl!!! Grrrr...
Cassandra is simply *awesome*. She's one of the best 9-10 cap Primogens. She
has decent disciplines (superior in-clan and cel pre). *And* she has a nifty
handsize special (which never hurts), she's the only Tremere/!Tremere with
extra strength, she has a marginally useful title, *and* she has a super super
cool picture. C'mon. Don't you wish you could read a book while floating in the
air? I still haven't gotten around to building an aus/cel/pre/tha deck with
Cassie, Javier, Klaus, and Melisande. I might even make a version that's a gun
deck. Magic of the Smith takes care of the problem of equipping with guns.
(Fetch Pier 13 or other guns afterwards).
Um...so you'd better watch it Xian. You're skating on thin ice when you try to
mess with Cassandra!
>Though I would actually nominate...yeah, I gotta go with Noal on this one.
>Elisabetta Romano. Though Lydia Van Cuelen comes pretty close, even *with*
>her +1 bleed.
I'll agree with these two. Have never used either Elisabetta or Lydia.
Elisabetta at least has a cool name and an *interesting* picture (pink hair?).
Lydia's pretty fugly.
>And Sabine Lafitte isn't too far behind that.
Sabine's actually decent. I find her special to be decent in weenie Tremere
decks. Yeah, she's not awesome, but she's not that bad. Maybe she can use her
potence to destroy some Meat Hooks...
Yeah, Elisabetta and Lydia are the worst Tremere. Thomas isn't that great
either. And I rarely waste my time with Mustafa (the only Tremere/!Tremere
without Thaumaturgy). And just for you Xian, the absolute suckiest Tremere
would just have to be that whining little Cardano-guy.
As for !Tremere, Kurt is the worst. 4 points of disciplines on a 5-cap? He got
really screwed. While Richard is useful, he also got screwed. 3 points of
disciplines *and* a disadvantages for a 4-cap? He really didn't need the
intercept penalty, however corner-case it may be (though I've seen it become
significant several times).
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>Prince, the other is a Primogen with a useful special. You could do
>much worse. Nakova and Elisabetta Romano come to mind.
C'mon, how can you diss Nakova? She is *hot*! Yeah, she got *totally* screwed
in points, but she has just such a lovely picture, with the kitty and all...
Despite Tura's...um..."features"...Nakova is so much better! (picture-wise)
>> Independant All stars
>>
>> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
>
>I've been giving thought to a Quietus/Thaumaturgy deck that does a lot
>of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though.
Qui/Tha can be pretty nasty. Foul Blood + Blood Clots are excellent additions
in a Cryptic Mission deck.
>> Tereza Rostas
>
>Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless.
Yeah, total tool of a special. I guess her special is only useful for the
Setites who Temptation her? But overall, she's not an entire waste. I have seen
a scary Ravnos Potence deck before...
>> maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
>
>Kemintiri rocks. None of the Setites are really very poor.
>
Yeah. How can you go wrong with Keminitiri? Awesome pic! Once again, I have to
make the assertion that overall, the Setites have the best females! She did get
some crap specials but she's still cool in my book...
>> Quentin
>
>He's got all 3 in-clan disciplines at superior and cancels the votes
>of other vampires! How can you go wrong? Sorry...but this guy rocks
>the house in a !Ventrue vote deck. Dylan is probably the worst vampire
>of this clan, but even he's usable.
People have already commented on this already. How can you say Quentin's
*bad*??? (Besides the crappy pic of course, but that's a problem endemic to all
of the pansy-ass !Ventrue).
>> Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
>
>See Young-Sun above.
Ayelea's awesome. Cardinal, good discipline-spread and a corner-case but useful
special. Ayelea rules. She truly is the Queen of the Damned! =P
>> Matteus
>
>See Bronwen above.
Matteus is okay. I do have to admit he has one of the lamest specials in the
game (the first one). The only thing it does is allow him to play War Party.
Quick LSJ Question: #1. Can Matteus burn a blood to play a card that requires a
Cardinal/Archbishop but that he would be able to play anyway (if Priscus also
qualifies)? So can he burn blood to play a Bloodbath (which he would be able to
play anyway)? #2. Is there a limit to how many times he can use that special?
Could he use his special 5 times to be able to play a War Party?
>> Mary the Black
>
>A 7 cap with all 3 in-clan disciplines, 2 at superior AND she has
>built-in aggravated hand damage. She's wallpaper?!? What kind of crack
>are you smoking?
>
Mary's the scariest Baali. I often dont' block her even when she's using
Presence bleeds!
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> Quick LSJ Question: #1. Can Matteus burn a blood to play a card that requires a
> Cardinal/Archbishop but that he would be able to play anyway (if Priscus also
> qualifies)? So can he burn blood to play a Bloodbath (which he would be able to
> play anyway)? #2. Is there a limit to how many times he can use that special?
> Could he use his special 5 times to be able to play a War Party?
Yes. So Yes.
Yes: Once per card (due to the "to play" construction). No.
Halcyan 2
>closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you
>*can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that actually
>works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her. She's
>the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means
>anything...
?
Lots of vampires have dom/pre/tha (10 others plus Uncle Ian). Do you mean
dom/pre/tha/vic?
Halcyan 2
Xian
"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a57k1c$r54$1...@neon.noos.net...
> erm... gargoyle slave *ally* cannot use ranged weapons. I wonder why this
> limitation though...
"Neither the opposable thumbs nor the cranial capacity..."
:)
Xian
Xian
> > Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days.
> >
> Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even
> these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has
True, it's not that good.
> Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah
> cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being
However, she fits pretty well into a Brujah bruise & bleed deck, especially
if you're using Aire of Elation. It makes her better. :)
[Lithrac]
> > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having
> > nut-munchers around is always nice.
I can't believe Derek used the phrase "nut-muncher".
> Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful
> without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with
> some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
> acceptable for a 6 cap.
True. I think the jury's still out on him. I haven't made a Samedi deck
yet, but I'm going to get around to it "real soon now (tm)". (Read as: as
soon as the storyline stuff is over.)
> Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent
> S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses
> combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma...
> you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have
> Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi.
Guh? Man, I use the Lasombra with potence all the time. Talley is my
all-time favorite Lasombra. Of course, this (using Lasombra with potence)
could be due to personal (rush) bias, but still. I'm still not sure what to
expect out of the Samedi, having seen "The Combo" go.
Xian
Chris Berger
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020223071324...@mb-fo.aol.com...
awry (like maybe I still had Tzimisce checked when I did the search). I
should have *known* that other vamps had those disciplines. Brain fart.
Forget I said anything.
Noal McDonald
>>>Radeyah
> Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even
> these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points.
That depends on your play group. Dave (Raille) doesn't play anything but
Setites, so the rush is *quite* useful in these parts.
>>>Lithrac
> Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful
> without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with
> some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
> acceptable for a 6 cap.
?!? Is it me, or are the lot of you smoking crack this week?
First off Lithrac is a 5 cap, not a 6. For a 5 cap, he's great. He has 3
in-clan disciplines and 2 useful specials.
As for Jack Dawson....what "other good stuff"?!? He's an 8 cap with 4
in-clan disciplines, two of which are not at superior. In fact, the most
important two. As for his special, when he comes out of the uncontrolled
region, I can put a single piece of equipment on him for regular cost?
Oh wow, hold me back. I can barely contain my excitement.
>>>Mary the Black
> Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being
> Infernal.
Given everything that Baali bring to the table, being Infernal isn't
that big of a deal. Actually, I don't mind it at all. It's a good kick
in the ass to remind you that you better go after the VPs at all cost.
Case in point, I built a Baali deck (10 Baali, 2 Setites) that has swept
the table 50% of the time that I've played it. Remember boys and girls,
Infernal + Social Charm/Sense the Sin = free for you, not cheap for
them. That agg hand damage backing up big bleeds is mighty rough to deal
with.
> Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a
> combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to
> Infernal.
Whatever. Like the Assamites can handle S:CE any better. If Bajazet
can't rush into combat that agg damage won't do you any good. It's not
like the Assamites can bleed for shit.
Regards,
Noal
Halcyan 2
>> limitation though...
>
>"Neither the opposable thumbs nor the cranial capacity..."
Yet somehow the Hell Hound has both of these...?
Halcyan 2
Emmanuel Martin
Well, as a few objections were raised as I accused some minions of
wallpaperness. So I am back, with a few charges about why I accuse
some minions.
First of all, I must say that I consider wallpaperness only relative
to "Vtes now", and that a vampire that used to be acceptable but have
been replaced by far more powerfull ones are to be considered
wallpaper (do you hear me Tura).
Second I consider wallpaperness in term of playability in efficient
deck (a definition of an efficient tournament deck being : a deck that
has good chances of making at least four VPs in a tournament). This
means that, though interesting, considerations relative to points are
only marginaly pertinent to save a vampire from wallpaperness. Having
all in-clans at superior can often be "not enough", especially for big
vamps. Having many points of disciplines can often be useless i those
disciplines don't match together, or can't be the center of a deck as
the vamp is the only one to posess a certain combination of
diciplines. As oppoed to it, a vamp with very few points of
disciplines (say Nakova) whose disciplines match well, and who is
sometimes(yesterday at Praxis Seizure Paris for exemple) in
tournaments, is still correct.
> Cammie All stars, foreach clan
>
> Appolonius
Well very few doubts on this guy. Some may have played him at the
ancient "Jyhad only" times because of his +1 bleed. Other people
interested in his diciplines combination should look at the rarely
seen Gwendolyn.
> Wilhelm Waldburg
Well, I must admit that I wasn't aware of his mix with the daughter's.
My opinion was that :
* Ventrue have three cheaper princes with in-clan disciplines
* he doesn't have a usefull special
* his out of clans disciplines are pretty useless (not by their own,
but they bring nothing usefull to the ventrue disciplines)
* though a little more expensive, Arika and Queen Anne are
wonderfully superior, as obf is THE disciplines standard Ventrue
politicall deck lack, and they both have bleed bonus.
* unless you wory that much about for PRE being worst than FOR PRE
(for is enough in most cases to survive long enough for immortal
grapple to vanish), Democritus, with +1 bleed, one more vote and a
decent special is better in all angles. So if you want THESE
disciplines, even for the daughter's, put up to four Democritus
(latinists may say up to four Democriti).
* No, I don't think any deck based on having both Democritus and
Wilhelm can be MORE efficient than a deck based on either the cheap
ventrue princes or Arika + Queen Anne.
> Lazarus
Lazarus is simply too expensive for his disciplines and his special.
Give me the example of a tournament viable deck (not a deck that wins
tournaments, but a deck that has good chances of making at least four
VPs in three games). His special, not powerfull enough to base a
strategy upon, is just a week bonus. I think of Ulugh Beg as being far
better.
In fact, my complaint is that he is just too expensive, with no
interseting specials.
> Tura Vaughn
First, I made a mistake, I should have put a Gangrel instead of her.
Say Quinton Mc Donell ?
But only Appolonius save her from being nominated. She's weak for Euro
Brujah :
Donnal O'Conor, Constanza Vinti, Anvil, Theo, Volker, Sela, Lizette
Visquel, Jimmy Dunn, Agatha, Hugo, Chas, ... seem me far better than
her.
> Judah
A deck based on his disiplines ould be interesting, theproblem being
that he just doesn't posess them. One superior, two inferiors, no
special for six is not enough. Just give me the example of an
efficient deck using him.
> Damaskenos, herald of Leandro
Nothing more than what Chris Berger said
> Radeyah
Nothing more than what Chris Berger said
>
> Independant All stars
>
> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
I think she's just too expensive, has little stealth for the war ghoul
loop. But maybe the deck works ?
> Tereza Rostas
No special, only ani. I am definitely not convinced by her.
> maybe Kemintiri, but not so many ugly Sethites
Well, a standard Sethit deck using her, great books of THA (from final
nights) and Rutor's Hand may be interesting. In fact, I laked a
Sethite to nominate. Maybe Khalil Anvari, as :
* he has nbo stealth, for a sethite deck
* he brings nothing new to presence weenie decks
> Husamettin
Well, I found him too expensive. But after all, why not. I could have
more luck (maybe more flames too) with Ur-Shulgi.
>
> Sabbat All Stars
>
> Quentin
I had to nominate someaone. Ok, I mistook, Quentin is usefull in some
vote decks. So let's say Gerard.
> Caitlin (errated version)
Yes she has LOTS of disciplines for her capacity, even reprinted. But
it is hard to find someone to go with her, and I just can't figure how
to use her efficiently.
> Yong-Sun, Harmonist
No , I insist, he is WALLPAPER. First, if your cards are sorted, you
may notice that Cailean exists. ! Nosfe are the guys who get the most
disciplines for their capacity, so his three in clans at superior do
not weight much. an dI think that adding THA brings nothing usefull,
and that he isn't usefull in any efficient deck.
> Ramiro ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Lasombra
I think Ignacio is better. But the embrace/ shadow twins deck is very
good.
> Bronwen
Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for
a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline,
and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey
don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise
deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has
nothing that rocks.
> Hannibal
Coma sends to torpor without Blood loss, can't be played under
grapple, can't be prevented. So I considr that it is about equal to
inferior version of Burning Wrath or Death of My conscience. Hannibal
Can't play traditions.
Needless to say I am suggesting you to compare him with Villon.
> Ayelea ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper !Tremere
Show me an efficent deck based on Aylea. I must adimt she has good
disciplines, a decent special. The problem is that I can't see anyone
to go with her and make an eficient deck.
> Matteus
Two options with him
* use VIC : the problem is that there is noone to go with him
* don't use VIC. Just look at Cammie hich capacity Toreadors.
> Anton ? well, there are no completeley wallpaper Tzimisce
I am not very Keen on him. I think Violet may play Weather Control
Bloodform, that's why I chose not to nominate her. I think he's just a
"Second zone" vampire, worse that the other Tzimisce.
> Rex, the Necronomist
No comments. He has three combat disciplines.
>
> Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
> Lithrac
thn (inferior thanatosis) seems me useless. The only card that is
worth playing Samedi is superior withering, which looks like old
thougthts betrayed. OBF isn't that neede, obf is enough in most cases.
for is correct. But I think he just hasn't got enough stuff,
especially while compare dto George Frederick.
Jack Dawson made appreciable effort too.
> Mary the Black
Infernal sucks, so an infernal minion has to be a real ass kicker to
compensate for this. I just can't figure a strategy that gets the best
out of her. Show me the deck.
Of course, thes opinions are subjective
Emmanuel
James Coupe
Martin <e...@boursorama.com> writes:
>> Bronwen
>Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for
>a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline,
>and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey
>don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise
>deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has
>nothing that rocks.
I think this is where you fall down - as on a number of similar points.
The trick is not to find vampires "that rock". The trick is to find
useful vampires.
There are many stalwart, useful vampires out there who are nothing
special to look at but who can be very useful, played properly. A few
vampires are, of course, above the power curve. Simply because someone
is not significantly above it does not make them wallpaper.
I am, however, perplexed by the bizarreness of "Presence brings nothing
to a bruise and bleed deck" - much as I was perplexed by your dismissal
of Democritus' for/PRE over Wilhelm's FOR/PRE. Skin of Steel etc. to
deal with additional strikes can be game changing situations.
Ville Sarvijärvi
> A deck based on his disiplines ould be interesting, theproblem being
> that he just doesn't posess them. One superior, two inferiors, no
> special for six is not enough. Just give me the example of an
> efficient deck using him.
Bruise and bleed nosferatu deck using judah made it to the finals
yesterday in storyline Helsinki...
I have no details of the deck, but I got ousted by Judah.
Reyda
> In message <10c2c156.02022...@posting.google.com>, Emmanuel
> Martin <e...@boursorama.com> writes:
> >> Bronwen
> >Yes, I insist she IS wallpaper. Her thrre in-clans aren't enoiugh for
> >a ten cap, and I consider that, though presence is a great dicipline,
> >and though cambat ends are a major concern for !Brujah decks, dey
> >don't NEED combat ends. Presence brings nothing to a bruise and bruise
> >deck, and she's just too big for bruise and bleed. She really has
> >nothing that rocks.
> I am, however, perplexed by the bizarreness of "Presence brings nothing
> to a bruise and bleed deck" -
yes... It's nonsense... I'm quite happy to bleed for 6 with Sela when i
torporized my prey's last vampire. Besides this i don't like when people
criticize vampires they *never* tried to play in the first place.
> much as I was perplexed by your dismissal
> of Democritus' for/PRE over Wilhelm's FOR/PRE. Skin of Steel etc. to
> deal with additional strikes can be game changing situations.
This week end i discovered that outferior Infection is equivalent to
Superior Skin of Steel for the cost of Two blood. But i chose not to pack
some in my deck. As a result of this decision, my Sheldon was hit by 3 sewer
lids in a given round of combat, and i could only play inferior skin of
steel. Next time i play inferior fortitude, i'll pack infections to avoid
this blur-o-mania.
reyda
Reyda
"Chris Berger" <ark...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:5wGd8.3737$vP.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> > >Judah
> >
> > Bleed for 1, Conditioning. If blocked:
> >
> > Drawing out the Beast, Torn Signpost, IG, Undead Strength, Taste.
> >
> For the Shane/Judah deck, eh? Heh... I'd like to see it work, actually.
If
> I had a few more of those two, I'd do it in a heartbeat (probably need
about
> 3 of each. Probably need about 3-4 Don Cruez's for 5th Traditions,
because
> all the other vampires to use are huge, and you'll need to Minion Tap like
a
> mofo.
Shane. Judah. Marty. You can add the Giovanni antivote bozo.Throw in minion
taps and taste of vitae because there will be some street fight. and maybe
Mind rapes...
(snip)
> > >Radeyah
> >
> > Has pre/pot/CEL and a built-in Rush, which is quite useful these days.
> >
> Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even
> these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points. She has
> Brujah disciplines, and so can go in a Brujah deck, but cannot play Brujah
> cards (although there aren't very many good ones) in addition to being
> overcosted. Rigby is essentially the same, but is 1 capacity smaller and
> has PRE. Bianca is the same as her but has +1 str instead of the
> practically useless rush.
granted.
> > >Matteus
> >
> > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior.
> >
> And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play
> an aus/cel/pre/vic deck???
me.
> He's the only one with all four disciplines.
> I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost
> anything instead of Fleshcraft.
then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can add
superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents...
> > >Anton ?
> >
> > No minion with inherent +1 intercept is EVER wallpaper.
> >
> How about this minion:
>
> Big Eyes
> 10 capacity
> Tremere
> obf
> Sabbat: +1 intercept
mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;)
> *grin* But yeah, Anton is not wallpaper. I think Violet Tremain is the
> closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you
> *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that
actually
> works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her.
i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike
directly in my hands...
>She's
> the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means
> anything...
Utterly false. There are currently 10 other vampires with those three
disciplines.
> > >Lithrac
> >
> > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having
> > nut-munchers around is always nice.
> >
> Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful
> without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with
> some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
> acceptable for a 6 cap.
5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon
or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap.
> Doing agg damage is all fine and good, but with no way to prevent
> S:CE/dodge/prevention, what's the point? Are you saying no one even uses
> combat defense around you? It's one thing for the Lasombra to use Coma...
> you don't really expect much beatdown from Lasombra (even though they have
> Potence). You can't really expect anything *else* from Samedi.
I do think than hidden lurker or Danw operation are sufficient threats to
make you *not* block the samedi.
> > >Mary the Black
> >
> > Trap, Fear the Void Below, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid, Sewer Lid...
> >
> > If you maneuver back to close, burn a blood and poke for 1 agg.
> >
> Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being
> Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a
> combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to
> Infernal.
Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a backup
power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's
discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet cannot
do = More interaction with other vampire.
Raille
Noal McDonald wrote:
>
> Chris Berger wrote:
>
> >>>Radeyah
> > Umm... she has a built-in Settite-rush. Which is not that useful, even
> > these days. Please, a free Settite-rush is *not* worth 2 points.
>
> That depends on your play group. Dave (Raille) doesn't play anything but
> Setites, so the rush is *quite* useful in these parts.
>
Hey! I resemble that remark. However I DO occasionally dust off the
other 10000 cards or so and put together something odd.
Raille
Raille
Emmanuel Martin wrote:
> >
> > Some Bloodliners made appreciable effort
> > Lithrac
> thn (inferior thanatosis) seems me useless. The only card that is
> worth playing Samedi is superior withering, which looks like old
> thougthts betrayed. OBF isn't that neede, obf is enough in most cases.
> for is correct. But I think he just hasn't got enough stuff,
> especially while compare dto George Frederick.
> Jack Dawson made appreciable effort too.
Was just talking about this card this weekend.
If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions
strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return
strike to something non discipline based?
Raille
Flux
> If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions
> strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return
> strike to something non discipline based?
No, since the opposing minion still gets to play his strike before any
strikes resolve (even with First Strike).
Flux
Chris Berger
"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C7A8028...@spamcop.net...
>
> Was just talking about this card this weekend.
>
> If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions
> strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return
> strike to something non discipline based?
>
prevent is because damage is dealt with *after* strikes resolve.
Chris Berger
>
> If any acting THAN vampire plays Withering before the opposing minions
> strike, does the restrictions automatically kick in and limit the return
> strike to something non discipline based?
>
Chris Berger
"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message news:a5d7kf$qtd$1...@neon.noos.net...
>
> > > >Matteus
> > >
> > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty superior.
> > >
> > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to play
> > an aus/cel/pre/vic deck???
>
> me.
>
> > He's the only one with all four disciplines.
> > I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost
> > anything instead of Fleshcraft.
>
> then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can add
> superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents...
>
Well, okay, but I'm just glad *I'm* not playing that deck. I'll stick with my
Auspex/Settites and Presence/Assamites. That's about as much as I can stomach for
odd discipline combos.
> > Big Eyes
> > 10 capacity
> > Tremere
> > obf
> > Sabbat: +1 intercept
>
> mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;)
>
Of who? ;)
Note that the vampire above would, of course, be drawn with a very Small Mouth.
> > I think Violet Tremain is the
> > closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and you
> > *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that
> > works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her.
>
> i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike
> directly in my hands...
>
Yeah, could be. I dunno. She's not absolutely horribly, and she's definitely
unique, which is why she's not wallpaper (as opposed to Radeyah, for whom there are a
large number of replacements that are all better than her), but she's just very, very
hard to use. In most people's collections she does nothing more than take up space.
> >She's
> > the only vampire with dom/pre/tha (besides Uncle Ian), if that means
> > anything...
>
> Utterly false. There are currently 10 other vampires with those three
> disciplines.
>
Yep. I already apologized for my unconscionable lack of vision.
> > > >Lithrac
> > >
> > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan, having
> > > nut-munchers around is always nice.
> > >
> > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that fearful
> > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn with
> > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
> > acceptable for a 6 cap.
>
> 5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon
> or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap.
>
Well, I didn't say he's useless or that he's wallpaper, just that I hate him. George
Frederick can also play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised weapon or deal
*3* aggravated damage, with the added advantage of not sucking... ;)
You can't just list all the things a vampire can do and then say they don't suck
(granted, I'm willing to admit that Lithrac might conceivably be useful in other
people's decks, but it's gonna take a lot of convincing before I even think of
putting him in one of my own... even if it's a mono-Samedi deck). Vampires don't
exist in a vacuum. Vampires don't become wallpaper by an a priori examination of
their abilities, but by comparison with other vampires.
On a similar point, some vampires, and some cards, are only useful when they are
played "in addition" to other better cards (i.e. you can have both Bianca and Radeyah
out, but Bianca is better). Such cards may not be technically useless, but whenever
it comes to a choice between the two (rather than both), you're always better off
with the other one. If you were to build a deck with 8 anti-diablerie cards, you
might consider 5 Deadliest Sin and 3 Eyes of the Dead (or even 6 and 2). If you
played with 4 anti-diablerie cards, however, you'd almost certainly play either 3 and
1 or just with 4 Deadliest Sin. Deadliest Sin is just better (and is still seldom
played). Considering the corner-case usefulness of such cards, Eyes of the Dead is
just a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad card.
> > > >Mary the Black
> > >
> > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being
> > Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan is a
> > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay compared to
> > Infernal.
>
> Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a backup
> power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's
> discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet cannot
> do = More interaction with other vampire.
>
Bajazet's disciplines allow him to bleed for 4, (and either one can do so at
stealth). And he can prevent damage, which Mary cannot. He also has access to
Clandestine Contract. I would consider them balanced with each other (discipline and
capacity-wise) if Mary was not Infernal. I guess she's not all that bad, but I just
can't get over her Infernalness. I really think that all of the Baali should have
gotten really nice unique specials, which, unfortunately, most of them did not.
Luckily Daimoinen is a pretty nice discipline (although no discipline is as amazing
as Obeah... I'm still waiting to see the broken hordes of Salubri/!Tre... we'll see
if it happens or not).
Raille
What about if you used First strike? Then you force the opposition
into a damage resolution, prior to them making a strike, thus the
witherings effects should (as i see it) come into play.
Raille
Chris Berger
"Raille" <rai...@spamcop.net> wrote in message news:3C7ACD5B...@spamcop.net...
certainly you can play whatever strike you want (assuming you could play it
sans-Withering). I am about 90% sure that your strike will resolve as normal too,
even after a First Strike Withering. I suppose it's possible that your strike would
become invalid before it resolved, thus relegating you to no strike for the round.
However, I don't believe this is the case, as Withering simply prevents you from
*playing cards* that require disciplines. By the time it resolves, your card has
already been played, so as I see it there is nothing preventing normal resolution.
IANALSJ, but I believe that is the way he will rule it... LSJ, you following this
thread?
Cameron
Yeah, but recall that Strike:Dodge, and Strike:Combat Ends resolve
before a strike from First Strike goes off. So you can still play
discipline cards in that initial stike phase.
Cameron
Hollowboy
> rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all
> seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway.
> Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill,
> then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen
> vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just
> Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my
> deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either.
Whoa!
I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are
better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle.
That way, if the vampire gets axed, your predator loses a vampire. And
if it doesn't, your predator will have to hunt with it, and then you
take it straight back again.
Your way, if the vampire is not blocked, the vampire has a chance to
play restoration, Cryptic Mission, Fifth itself, hunt or whatever, to
keep you from nabbing control again (for a while).
Chris Berger
"Hollowboy" <icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:614f2a39.02022...@posting.google.com...
> > I tend to use the stolen
> > vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just
> > Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them.
>
>
> I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are
> better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle.
>
Although it does suck if they get blocked and lose all their blood and you never get
to take it. I guess you just have to judge whether or not that's likely to happen.
But using your predator's vamp to rescue the poor Settite he just torporized is
priceless. "I'm sorry, Celine... I don't know what I was thinking. Can we be
friends?" "Sure, but only if my pal Khalil can have your Sport Bike."
Reyda
>
> "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:a5d7kf$qtd$1...@neon.noos.net...
> >
> > > > >Matteus
> > > >
> > > > Can play Enhanced Senses, Sideslip, Blur, Fleshcraft, Majesty
superior.
> > > >
> > > And he would want to do that because??? Who in the world is going to
play
> > > an aus/cel/pre/vic deck???
> >
> > me.
> >
> That's because you're craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy... 8)
maybe i am =)
> > > He's the only one with all four disciplines.
> > > I'd rather play Cat's Guidance instead of Majesty anyway. And almost
> > > anything instead of Fleshcraft.
> >
> > then play Aura reading (just to be sure), Horrid form x 2, blur. You can
add
> > superior Chiropteran to vaporize your unlucky opponents...
> >
> Well, okay, but I'm just glad *I'm* not playing that deck. I'll stick
with my
> Auspex/Settites and Presence/Assamites. That's about as much as I can
stomach for
> odd discipline combos.
Auspex setite is very nice =) i neer tried it yet !! hey, i'll go and build
a Setite auspex deck if you promise me you'll try the very vicious Setite
Protean deck ;)
I tried Presence Assamite, and it's quite interesting, but i prefer the much
offensive Assamite Potence angle =)
> > > Big Eyes
> > > 10 capacity
> > > Tremere
> > > obf
> > > Sabbat: +1 intercept
> >
> > mmm... are you making fun of us ? ;)
> >
> Of who? ;)
>
> Note that the vampire above would, of course, be drawn with a very Small
Mouth.
=)
> > > I think Violet Tremain is the
> > > closest thing to a wallpaper Tzimisce. She has a cool special, and
you
> > > *can* make a deck based on it, but a) I still haven't seen one that
> > > works, and b) most Tzimisce decks just really have no use for her.
> >
> > i thought about "Summoning" Warghouls and expandable retainers alike
> > directly in my hands...
> >
> Yeah, could be. I dunno. She's not absolutely horribly, and she's
definitely
> unique, which is why she's not wallpaper (as opposed to Radeyah, for whom
there are a
> large number of replacements that are all better than her), but she's just
very, very
> hard to use. In most people's collections she does nothing more than take
up space.
true. She's unique, even if she's a bit overcosted. At 4 pool, i would play
her in a lot of decks just for the fun =)
(snip)
> > > > >Lithrac
> > > >
> > > > OBF/thn/for is a solid discipline spread, and in a combat clan,
having
> > > > nut-munchers around is always nice.
> > > >
> > > Blech. I hate this guy with a passion. Samedi just aren't that
fearful
> > > without sup THN. And at least Jake Dawson makes up for his inf thn
with
> > > some other good stuff. Using Lithrac solely for diablerie just isn't
> > > acceptable for a 6 cap.
> >
> > 5 cap. Again, can play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised
weapon
> > or 2 aggravated with inferior thanatosis. Definetly no crap.
> >
> Well, I didn't say he's useless or that he's wallpaper, just that I hate
him. George
> Frederick can also play hidden lurker, rush at stealth, play disguised
weapon or deal
> *3* aggravated damage, with the added advantage of not sucking... ;)
I understand that you prefer George =) he's a solid vampire !
but i don't pack vote defense these days and i can tell you that 2 votes for
you makes better chances you'll play that amaranth ;)
> You can't just list all the things a vampire can do and then say they
don't suck
> (granted, I'm willing to admit that Lithrac might conceivably be useful in
other
> people's decks, but it's gonna take a lot of convincing before I even
think of
> putting him in one of my own... even if it's a mono-Samedi deck).
Vampires don't
> exist in a vacuum. Vampires don't become wallpaper by an a priori
examination of
> their abilities, but by comparison with other vampires.
your theory is interesting.
> On a similar point, some vampires, and some cards, are only useful when
they are
> played "in addition" to other better cards (i.e. you can have both Bianca
and Radeyah
> out, but Bianca is better).
this is true =) That's why it's sometime difficult to find nice "backup
vampires" for the "champion" of your deck !
> Such cards may not be technically useless, but whenever
> it comes to a choice between the two (rather than both), you're always
better off
> with the other one. If you were to build a deck with 8 anti-diablerie
cards, you
> might consider 5 Deadliest Sin and 3 Eyes of the Dead (or even 6 and 2).
If you
> played with 4 anti-diablerie cards, however, you'd almost certainly play
either 3 and
> 1 or just with 4 Deadliest Sin. Deadliest Sin is just better (and is
still seldom
> played). Considering the corner-case usefulness of such cards, Eyes of
the Dead is
> just a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad card.
very true =)
> > > > >Mary the Black
> > > >
> > > Basically, the agg hand damage just isn't enough to make up for being
> > > Infernal. Bajazet can make his hand damage aggravated, but his clan
is a
> > > combat clan and his one extra capacity is a small price to pay
compared to
> > > Infernal.
> >
> > Marry is still an excellent vampire. Her agg hand damage is kind of a
backup
> > power which can make your opponent hesitate. Don't forget that mary's
> > discipline allow her to bleed for 5 or play intercept, which bajazet
cannot
> > do = More interaction with other vampire.
> >
> Bajazet's disciplines allow him to bleed for 4, (and either one can do so
at
> stealth). And he can prevent damage, which Mary cannot. He also has
access to
> Clandestine Contract.
on the other hand, Mary can still dodge or Immortal grapple, and has access
to a large array of condemnations (Doomed is my favorite)
> I would consider them balanced with each other (discipline and
> capacity-wise) if Mary was not Infernal. I guess she's not all that bad,
but I just
> can't get over her Infernalness.
i know it's a nightmare for a lot of players =)
> I really think that all of the Baali should have
> gotten really nice unique specials, which, unfortunately, most of them did
not.
> Luckily Daimoinen is a pretty nice discipline (although no discipline is
as amazing
> as Obeah... I'm still waiting to see the broken hordes of Salubri/!Tre...
we'll see
> if it happens or not).
i'm working of this =)
reyda
Derek Ray
icantbelievehollow...@hotmail.com (Hollowboy) mumbled
something about:
>> I *like* the idea of using the extra vampire to play a Temptation, but I'd
>> rather Cloak/Form of the Serpent than Mummify. On the other hand, it all
>> seems like a convoluted combo that wastes your master phase action anyway.
>> Not that it's bad... If you *do* happen to have that extra Serpentis skill,
>> then by all means, go for it... but otherwise, I tend to use the stolen
>> vamps to diablerize my own vampires, rescue my own vampires, or just
>> Heidelburg all but one blood and bleed with them. I'm not gonna pack my
>> deck full of Serpentis skills and Mummify. And I doubt you are either.
>
>Whoa!
>
>I love the Temptation-Heidelberg combo, but I would think you are
>better off bleeding and then taking ALL their blood with the castle.
Most likely result: bleed for 1, get blocked, strike-hands for 1, you
end up with the same amount of blood yanked off with Heidelburg anyway.
>That way, if the vampire gets axed, your predator loses a vampire. And
Your prey isn't going to kill your predator's vampire.
>if it doesn't, your predator will have to hunt with it, and then you
>take it straight back again.
Or, play Temptation and Mummify. Then rescue the untapped minion with
someone else's Tempted vampire (forcing the Mummified minion to pay for
it), and NOW bleed. Almost as good as Heidelberg at blood removal,
since you can only use Heidelberg once per turn. =)
>Your way, if the vampire is not blocked, the vampire has a chance to
>play restoration, Cryptic Mission, Fifth itself, hunt or whatever, to
>keep you from nabbing control again (for a while).
Sure, that's fine. Eventually everyone will be Tempted anyway, so why?
--
"There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.
Hollowboy
> >>
> >> Patrizia Giovanni (yes Reyda already tried)
> >
> >of pre-range damage. She may work there. Still only a theory, though.
>
> Qui/Tha can be pretty nasty. Foul Blood + Blood Clots are excellent additions
> in a Cryptic Mission deck.
>
> >> Tereza Rostas
> >
> >Eeh. Certainly not my favorite Ravnos. Special is comepletely useless.
>
> Yeah, total tool of a special. I guess her special is only useful for the
> Setites who Temptation her? But overall, she's not an entire waste. I have seen
> a scary Ravnos Potence deck before...
>
My two cents: if you are building a deck that uses Illusions of the
Kindred HEAVILY, then her large capacity and her potence is very very
good. You can make an illusion of Tereza (even at inferior), and
Tereza can make a mess of the opposing vampire with Immortal Grapple +
Burning Wrath + Amaranth, which is not too complicated a combo. Vaclav
is a 6-cap ravnos with potence, but he can't complete the combo if he
gets fetched with an inferior Illusion (he pays all 3 of his blood for
BW, gets punched for 1, can't play the Amaranth), so Tereza is
actually better.
Alao, if the plan is to deplete the vampire by playing multiple
Illusions, and then play Golconda and start over, Tereza again comes
out way ahead of Vaclav.
I am trading for a deck which works along these lines, but I am going
to complicate it with Stupid Francois Tricks, and maybe a bit of
Necromancy too :)