Baubleness
Robert Scythe
rifle onto another of my vampires. Then that other vampire is
banished. Baubles' text then states that I can burn the bauble card
and the chosen equipment card when the minion with said equipment
leaves the controlled region. I choose to burn the bauble, but is the
assault rifle burned? I imagine not since it is out of play; meaning
that if I choose to re-influence that vamp back up it will have the
weapon still and my other vamp will have been released from her
baubleness.
Robert Scythe
Ulugh Beg II
"Robert Scythe" <robert...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:66e41881.03101...@posting.google.com...
Interesting situation.
My take on it:
At inferior you burn the card (and the equipment) just as he leaves the
uncontrolled region. I presume this was a clause added to prevent a
Baubled vampire from ever untapping if the baubled equipment left play.
If it gets stolen you can still burn the baubled equipment, I suppose.
At superior, you can choose to burn the bauble (and the equipment card)
at any time, for example, just before it's being stolen.
This can mean two things:
1) You have to burn both bauble AND the baubled equipment at the same
time, which is impossible since the Baubled equipment isn't in play at
all. So you have to influence out the vamp first and THEN you can burn
the card. This would create more annoying situations with the equipment
being destroyed though. It kinda makes sense from a fluff-perspective,
but since fluff isn't really a basis for rules, my instinct tells me
this is incorrect.
2) You can burn the bauble, and if you choose to do so, the equipment
card is also burned as a result. In this case, you can indeed banish
your assault-rifled vampire, burn the bauble, influence your vampire
back out and have an assault rifle for free. Though I'm not sure you're
supposed to be able to do this, I'd say this is correct until LSJ tells
us what the truth really is.
Hmm. Now that I think of it, card text says "you may burn this card AND
the chosen equipment card" at both VIC and vic. The fact that it repeats
the whole sentence in the VIC description, implies that you have to burn
both or burn nothing at all. If not, it would have written something
like
vic: <bla bla bla>. You may burn this card during your master phase. If
you do so, burn the chosen equipment card as well.
VIC: as above, but you may burn this card at any time.
I'm leaning towards option #1 now, so either burn both or none at all.
Basically meaning, NO you can't do that otherwise very nice Banishment
trick. This would however create a tricky situation with the inferior
variant and destroy weapon cards (or a burned vampire for that matter).
LSJ?
salem
<dontfe...@spam.me> scrawled:
>
>"Robert Scythe" <robert...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
>news:66e41881.03101...@posting.google.com...
>> Just checking if this works: A vampire of mine baubles an assault
>> rifle onto another of my vampires. Then that other vampire is
>> banished. Baubles' text then states that I can burn the bauble card
[snip]
>I'm leaning towards option #1 now, so either burn both or none at all.
>Basically meaning, NO you can't do that otherwise very nice Banishment
>trick. This would however create a tricky situation with the inferior
>variant and destroy weapon cards (or a burned vampire for that matter).
I think you will find that if Banished, you can choose to burn both of
them. You burn it _when_ it leaves the controlled region. So it's not
out of play at the time you are allowed to burn it. However, if you
choose not to burn it....and then during your untap phase (or 'at any
time' with [VIC]) with the guy with the weapon currently in your
uncontrolled region, you could perhaps then burn bauble, and then the
equipment card would not burn as it is out of play and Bauble's text
makes no provision for tracking the equipment out of play. Then when
influenced back out, you'd still have your equipment. And no Bauble
card to worry about. Nice.
Same would go for if you were contesting the minion that had the
Baubled equipment on it, and you burned the Bauble while the equipment
was out of play.
Destroy equipment cards work just fine. the equipment is destroyed,
and you can burn bauble then (the equipment is leaving the controlled
region). Or, you can burn Bauble during your untap phase. Or, at any
time with superior [VIC].
Bauble [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Vicissitude
+1 stealth action.
[vic] Put this card on the acting vampire. Search your library and put
a non-unique, non-location equipment card on another minion you
control. Do not pay the cost to equip. The vampire with this card
cannot attempt actions, block or vote. You may burn this card and the
chosen equipment card during your untap phase or when the vampire with
the chosen equipment leaves the controlled region.
[VIC] As above, but you may burn this card and the chosen equipment at
any time.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Robert Scythe
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 03:04:05 +0200, "Ulugh Beg II"
> <dontfe...@spam.me> scrawled:
>
> >
> >"Robert Scythe" <robert...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
> >news:66e41881.03101...@posting.google.com...
> >> Just checking if this works: A vampire of mine baubles an assault
> >> rifle onto another of my vampires. Then that other vampire is
> >> banished. Baubles' text then states that I can burn the bauble card
> [snip]
>
> >I'm leaning towards option #1 now, so either burn both or none at all.
> >Basically meaning, NO you can't do that otherwise very nice Banishment
> >trick. This would however create a tricky situation with the inferior
> >variant and destroy weapon cards (or a burned vampire for that matter).
>
> I think you will find that if Banished, you can choose to burn both of
> them. You burn it _when_ it leaves the controlled region. So it's not
> out of play at the time you are allowed to burn it. However, if you
My belief is that I cannot (at inferior) choose to burn this card
(Bauble) until the minion with the chosen equipment leaves play (other
than the untap phase clause) and when the minion in this scenario
leaves play the equipment leaves also. I don't see how I can burn
both cards at the same time when it is not possible for me to burn
Bauble until the other minion is gone, and then, of course, the
equipment will be gone too. Sort of like the fact that you cannot
play Rotschreck after attempting to strike me with a flamethrower if I
play Darkling Trickery first. At superior I know for certain that
this scenario works because I have read LSJ's previous rulings about
Bauble being able to be burnt even if the equipment is already gone, I
just want to see if it is possible to do it in this manner at inferior
due to the wording.
> choose not to burn it....and then during your untap phase (or 'at any
> time' with [VIC]) with the guy with the weapon currently in your
> uncontrolled region, you could perhaps then burn bauble, and then the
> equipment card would not burn as it is out of play and Bauble's text
> makes no provision for tracking the equipment out of play. Then when
> influenced back out, you'd still have your equipment. And no Bauble
> card to worry about. Nice.
>
> Same would go for if you were contesting the minion that had the
> Baubled equipment on it, and you burned the Bauble while the equipment
> was out of play.
>
> Destroy equipment cards work just fine. the equipment is destroyed,
> and you can burn bauble then (the equipment is leaving the controlled
> region).
actually at inferior you cannot burn it then since it only states that
you can burn Bauble when the minion with the equipment leaves the
controlled region, not the equipment itself.
Or, you can burn Bauble during your untap phase. Or, at any
> time with superior [VIC].
>
> Bauble [Sabbat:R, SW:R]
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 2 blood
> Discipline: Vicissitude
> +1 stealth action.
> [vic] Put this card on the acting vampire. Search your library and put
> a non-unique, non-location equipment card on another minion you
> control. Do not pay the cost to equip. The vampire with this card
> cannot attempt actions, block or vote. You may burn this card and the
> chosen equipment card during your untap phase or when the vampire with
> the chosen equipment leaves the controlled region.
> [VIC] As above, but you may burn this card and the chosen equipment at
> any time.
>
> salem
> domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
Robert Scythe
Timlagor
> My belief is that I cannot (at inferior) choose to burn this card
> (Bauble) until the minion with the chosen equipment leaves play (other
> than the untap phase clause) and when the minion in this scenario
> leaves play the equipment leaves also. I don't see how I can burn
> both cards at the same time when it is not possible for me to burn
> Bauble until the other minion is gone, and then, of course, the
> equipment will be gone too. Sort of like the fact that you cannot
> play Rotschreck after attempting to strike me with a flamethrower if I
> play Darkling Trickery first. At superior I know for certain that
> this scenario works because I have read LSJ's previous rulings about
> Bauble being able to be burnt even if the equipment is already gone, I
> just want to see if it is possible to do it in this manner at inferior
> due to the wording.
You don't play it after the vampire has gone; you play it when the
vampire is going out of play but before they have actually left.
I'd say that if you want to keep the equipment you have to wait until
your untap phase and burn it then (at vic) or burn it any time (VIC)
after the banishment has taken effect. I would allow this because i
don't believe anyone can do this deliberately to useful effect.
[bauble + banish (call and pass) + (wait a turn +) reinfluence (another
round before you can use it)]
LSJ
> Just checking if this works: A vampire of mine baubles an assault
> rifle onto another of my vampires. Then that other vampire is
> banished. Baubles' text then states that I can burn the bauble card
> and the chosen equipment card when the minion with said equipment
> leaves the controlled region. I choose to burn the bauble, but is the
> assault rifle burned? I imagine not since it is out of play; meaning
Yes, it is.
Or you can wait until your untap phase (per inferior) or any other time
(per superior) to burn the Bauble after the Rifle is truly out of play,
in which case the out of play rifle is not affected.
> that if I choose to re-influence that vamp back up it will have the
> weapon still and my other vamp will have been released from her
> baubleness.
This works except for the "burn when leaving" case.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Ulugh Beg II
(another
> round before you can use it)]
More like:
Bauble.
Banish vampire with the flame thrower
Burn Bauble (at superior)
Influence back out
Next turn: one free Flame Thrower ar Assault Rifle) ready to go. Doesn't
seem too hard to me.
the_capuchin
> them. You burn it _when_ it leaves the controlled region. So it's not
> out of play at the time you are allowed to burn it. However, if you
> choose not to burn it....and then during your untap phase (or 'at any
> time' with [VIC]) with the guy with the weapon currently in your
> uncontrolled region, you could perhaps then burn bauble, and then the
> equipment card would not burn as it is out of play and Bauble's text
> makes no provision for tracking the equipment out of play. Then when
> influenced back out, you'd still have your equipment. And no Bauble
> card to worry about. Nice.
I don't recall being necessary for any card to be "in play" to be
burned if cardtext allows to burn it. I guess if the equipped vampire
is banished and you choose not to burn Bauble and the Assault at that
moment, but in your next untap, you'll burn the two cards anyway.
But even if you can't burn a card that is out of play, you won't be
able to even attempt this nasty trick with the Rifle since the card
says "you MAY burn this card AND the chosen equipament" - this means
that if you cannot burn one card for some reason (being out of play,
for example), you cannot burn the other. So if you get the equipped
vampire banished, you have to influence him out again for the solely
purpose of getting the Bauble card burned, if you wish to burn it.
> Destroy equipment cards work just fine. the equipment is destroyed,
> and you can burn bauble then (the equipment is leaving the controlled
> region). Or, you can burn Bauble during your untap phase. Or, at any
> time with superior [VIC].
I guess since with VIC you can burn the two cards at any time, you can
do it immediately after the opposing minion declares a destroy
equipment strike (considering it a "before strike resolution" timing).
But, if it has been brought into play with inferior vic, I suppose
you're in BIG trouble. If the chosen equipment is destroyed and the
formerly equipped minion does not go to torpor, the only timing option
left you do have to burn the two cards is during your next untap phase
- and at the time there's no equipment anymore. Since you can't burn a
card that's already burned, your minion is Baubled forever, I think.
It's still thematically logical, since the Baubled vampire is
effectively turning itself into a weapon for another minion to use -
and if it's destroyed, bye bye Baubled vampire.
LSJ, is this correct?
I'm not sure, though, about steal weapon strikes. If a minion steals
the equipment given by a Baubled vampire at inferior vic, the stealer
is now the controller of that equipment card; is the Baubled vampire's
controller able to burn in his untap phase a card that's being
controlled by another player at that time?
LSJ
> I don't recall being necessary for any card to be "in play" to be
> burned if cardtext allows to burn it.
Cards not in play are not affected by effects unless card text
specifically says so. This includes effects that would otherwise
try to burn them.
> - and at the time there's no equipment anymore. Since you can't burn a
> card that's already burned, your minion is Baubled forever, I think.
No. It isn't "burn the equipment to burn the Bauble card", it' just
"burn both".
> I'm not sure, though, about steal weapon strikes. If a minion steals
> the equipment given by a Baubled vampire at inferior vic, the stealer
> is now the controller of that equipment card; is the Baubled vampire's
> controller able to burn in his untap phase a card that's being
> controlled by another player at that time?
Yes. The burn effect doesn't specify that you have to control the weapon.
Robert Scythe
> Robert Scythe wrote:
> > Just checking if this works: A vampire of mine baubles an assault
> > rifle onto another of my vampires. Then that other vampire is
> > banished. Baubles' text then states that I can burn the bauble card
> > and the chosen equipment card when the minion with said equipment
> > leaves the controlled region. I choose to burn the bauble, but is the
> > assault rifle burned? I imagine not since it is out of play; meaning
>
> Yes, it is.
Damn, I was hoping to do this at inferior and bring up the vamp
immediately after Banish/Reality untapped and ready to block. I knew
it would work at superior because of the burn at anytime clause, but
vic is easier to fit into my deck than VIC. Well, it will still work
with titled Tzimisce, or maybe Torreador anti, but Reality means not
having to do the vote angle. Or, I could just wait that extra round.
(obviously you want the banished/realitied vamp to have full blood or
all this would be silly). As I think about it VIC/PRE would work
great: Bauble/Banishment/Voter Cap, calling votes and some combat
defense/offense. Time for a new deck!!
Robert Scythe
the_capuchin
> > burned if cardtext allows to burn it.
>
> Cards not in play are not affected by effects unless card text
> specifically says so. This includes effects that would otherwise
> try to burn them.
>
> > - and at the time there's no equipment anymore. Since you can't burn a
> > card that's already burned, your minion is Baubled forever, I think.
>
> No. It isn't "burn the equipment to burn the Bauble card", it' just
> "burn both".
>
> > I'm not sure, though, about steal weapon strikes. If a minion steals
> > the equipment given by a Baubled vampire at inferior vic, the stealer
> > is now the controller of that equipment card; is the Baubled vampire's
> > controller able to burn in his untap phase a card that's being
> > controlled by another player at that time?
>
> Yes. The burn effect doesn't specify that you have to control the weapon.
Agh. I promise from now on not even trying to comment the outcome of
any rulings doubtful situation ever before LSJ's answer come out. :)
John Flournoy
I've had some success with taking those titled Tzimisce and making a
Creation Rites with Vicisssitude, whose sole purpose is to Bauble a
big nasty weapon for their maker. If nothing else, it has a nice
storytelling-feel to it. "Ah, my new childer.. I will call you..
'AK47.'" "Why, sire? OW HEY MMPH ARRRRRRG"
-John Flournoy