Malkavian Antitribu Newsletter, December 2007
Ector
1. INTRODUCTION
I was very happy to see the changes in Tournament Rules for 2008
season. PTO was finally banned, along with Memories of Mortality and
Edge Explosion, and though I always prefer erratae to bans, these bans
are definitely better than nothing. At least, we can more-or-less
safely play non-Camarilla fatties! Cheers! I'm going to build my
favorite Elemelech deck right now!!!
Also, the dreaded prize-splitting was finally prohibited. I'm very
happy to see these changes, since the game is obviously moves towards
the serious, competitive edge, and I was struggling for this for a
several months. Voila! I'm going to play VTES again, and, look, I
wrote a newsletter!
2. CARDS OF THE MONTH
Name: Preternatural Strength [LotN:R]
Type: Action
Discipline: Potence
Cost: 1 blood
+2 stealth action.
[pot] Put this card on this vampire. This vampire gets +1 strength. He
or she cannot play Torn Signpost. A vampire can have only one
Preternatural Strength.
[POT] As above, but this vampire gets +2 strength.
This is the "ground-breaking" card, since we've never seen a card
providing permanent +2 strength before. Yes, there were cards for +2
bleed, but even the best of them (Heart in the City) cost 2 blood, not
one, and, seriously, this effect doesn't mean as much as +2 strength.
With +2 bleed you still can bleed only once per turn, your bleed can
be bounced, and your vampire becomes a target #1. A vampire can easily
use +2 strength several times per turn in a multirush or blocking deck
(just recall Lazverinus decks!), and this bonus allows you to free a
lot of space that was previously occupied by Torn Signposts and Undead
Strengths.
The only question is "how to get Preternatural Strength in time?" You
can easily build a low-cap POT deck with a lot of PretStrengths, and
you'll get a better deck than traditional decks with TS/US, since one
PretStrength replaces a lot of them. On the other hand, what you will
do if all your PretStrengths get blocked? This isn't going to happen
very often (not every deck is able to block a +2 stealth action), and
you may be able to torporize the blocker even without PS (blockers
beware!), but still. The best variants of POT decks usually use a
second discipline: POT/CEL, POT/pro, POT/for and so on, but PS makes
POT/obf decks much more attractive: you can not only reach the rush
destination, but also push TS with your stealth.
One of the most interesting deck types, hovewer, is the "fetchdeck"
based on PS. There are some vampires that could use extra
strength...OK, let's say "there are several great vampires that become
simply amazing with it"! One of the best examples is Hektor. When you
have a vampire with POT and aggravated hands, permanent extra strength
is really precious: you don't need any other cards to torporize at
all! Aggropoke can be easily prevented, but preventing 3 aggravated
isn't so easy, especially if you can add Immortal Grapple :)
Other good examples are Jacko and Lorrie Dunsirn that have inbuilt
additional strike. Hitting for 6 damage per round without any
additional cards is very impressive, and most of the time this will
torporize any vampire and kill any ally.
Name: Fillip [LotN:C/PR2]
Type: Reaction
Requires a vampire. Usable by a tapped vampire.Choose a younger tapped
vampire you control. The chosen vampire can play reaction cards and
attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is
concluded. A vampire may play only one Fillip each turn.
This is another variant of Wake, very good but somewhat limited. You
cannot play Fillip if you need to wake the oldest vampire you have at
least sometimes, but if any younger vampire can do, Fillip is the
best. It's replaced immediately, nobody burns any blood, and you
generally have enough vampires to play all Fillips you have. Some
decks can work entirely with Fillips - especially if you are building
a deck around 1-2 large "stars" with some support vampires for bounce,
and you need Wakes just to bounce. For instance, a multirush deck with
some POT/dom vampires can use this tech.
Some decks can use a mix of Fillips and On the Qui Vives, if you
aren't sure that you will have several large vampires. Two OtQVs and
3-4 Fillips is a good mix that will allow you to use all your bounce
in the most effective way. The same can be said about any other
reactions like Delaying Tactics or similar.
If you're playing intercept, that doesn't mean that you should limit
yourself to 2nd Traditions or Forced Awakenings as well. If you want
to bounce or play some reactions without blocking, you may also need
Fillips and OtQVs.
Name: Gramle [LotN:C]
Type: Action
Cost: 1 pool
+1 stealth action. Do not replace until the end of the action.Choose a
card in play or in any ash heap by name. Search your library or crypt
for the chosen card, show it to all Methuselahs, and move it to your
hand (discard afterward) or uncontrolled region.
You may think that Gramle is a crap, but it isn't. Though it's
completely inferior to our Sibyl's Tongue, it still can fetch a lot of
things. You cannot fetch the single card from your library, which is
the most valuable effect of a fetching card, plus you're paying 1 pool
and the card isn't replaced until the end of action, but sometimes
Grample is enough, and you don't need Malkavians antitribu!
The most obvious example is a deck based on several copies of some
valuable card, especially if the card is easily burned. Weighted
Walking Stick, for instance, is usually used in the decent numbers, so
you can play Gramle to fetch it when you need it. Why not just use
some extra Sticks? Because you may need something else, and Gramle
will fetch it. The best example, however, is Concealed Magnums. You
may have Magnum without Concealed Weapon and vice versa, and Grample
will fetch the part you're missing.
Gramle makes a interesting combo with Liquidation. You gain pool, fill
your ash heap and get targets for your Gramles. This can be very good
if you have a lot of copies of the fetched card, especially if you
have some ways to retrieve these cards from your ash heap too (like
Giovanni).
Fetching crypt cards is an interesting tech, and we've never had so
universal card for this task. Fetching Tupdogs is propably too
expensive, though you can assemble a deadly squad of them and launch
the squad at once, even if you aren't playing only Tupdogs, which is
quite interesting. You can fetch a burned Imbued, if you really need
the copy. Finally, you can fetch a missing standard/advanced version
of a vampire in play to merge, since you choose a card BY NAME, and
both versions have the same name.
Another interesting (but insane!) idea is a "contesting deck" based on
Gramles and Thanks for the Donation. Everybody knows that some cards
are frequently contested (Heart, Carlton, Bowl, Info HW, Barrens and
so on), so you can fetch a copy of somebody's card and play it to
contest.
The most interesting is combining Gramle with the other ways of
fetching cards or even filling your ash heap. If you can fetch the
card with Drop Point Network, but you fail to play it properly, you
will be able to fetch another copy with Gramle, choosing the first
copy in your ash heap.
3. VAMPIRE OF THE MONTH
Name: Hektor [Third:PAB]
Clan: Brujah Antitribu
Group: 4
Capacity: 9
Disciplines: for CEL POT PRE QUI
Sabbat priscus: Damage from Hektor`s hand strikes is aggravated. Baali
get +1 bleed when bleeding you.
Hektor is simply great. Though he isn't the most dangerous combat
monster in the game, he has a very good title and good set of
disciplines. His weakest point is inferior Fortitude that makes
protecting and untapping him rather difficult. You should plan to
upgrade it to superior level that will enable good protection and
superior Forced March.
Hektor and Armin Brenner usually form a core of "bruise and vote"
deck, a very rare archetype that is limited just to !Brujah and
probably Lasombra/Tzimisce, but !Brujah are the best due to Dogs of
War. Obviously, Preternatural Strength makes this archetype much
stronger, since you don't have to devote a lot of deck space on
combat, and still be dangerous enough to threaten. Hektor +
Preternatural Strength will shine in any rushing deck type: multirush,
rush & vote, trophy hunter and so on. Three aggravated damage from a
hand strike without any cards!
4. DECK OF THE MONTH
Deck Name: Preternatural Strength with !Malks
Created By: Ilya Ginsburg (Ector)
Description: Hektor + Armin deck with supporting !Malks
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 24, Max: 40, Avg: 8.33)
----------------------------------------------
4 Hektor for CEL POT PRE QUI 9 !Brujah
4 Armin Brenner ani obf CEL FOR POT PRE 10 !Brujah
1 General Perfidio Dios dem obf AUS 5 !Malkavian
1 Colonel cel dem obf AUS 5 !Malkavian
2 Marie Faucigny dem tha AUS OBF 7 !Malkavian
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (16 cards)
1 Fortitude
4 Minion Tap
1 Powerbase: Madrid
2 Monster
1 Black Forest Base
1 Creepshow Casino
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Zillah`s Valley
1 Trophy: Domain
1 Trophy: Hunting Ground
Action (11 cards)
2 Preternatural Strength
5 Sibyl`s Tongue
4 Red List
Action Modifier (16 cards)
5 Iron Glare
6 Forced March
4 Forgotten Labyrinth
1 Voter Captivation
Political Action (8 cards)
3 Dogs of War
1 Ancient Influence
1 Political Stranglehold
2 Banishment
1 Peace Treaty
Reaction (9 cards)
5 Telepathic Misdirection
2 On the Qui Vive
2 Fillip
Combat (28 cards)
9 Immortal Grapple
4 Slam
6 Pursuit
6 Superior Mettle
3 Taste of Vitae
Ally (1 cards)
1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
Retainer (1 cards)
1 Malajit Chandramouli
This is a !Brujah Trophy Hunter deck with supporting !Malks. It's very
toolboxy - there is combat, votes, bounce, fetching and so on, but it
can perform all its tasks due to the high number of votes and fetching
cards. You need Preternatural Strength for both fatties ASAP, and
Monsters would be great, too. Sometimes you will need to fetch Dogs of
War.
The voting package is light but powerful. There are pool-gaining (AI/
PS), rush (DoW), "bleed" (Banishment) and "silver bullet" against
weapons, Peace Treaty. Combat package is designed for vampires with
Preternatural Strength: Slam and Pursuit both provide heavy damage and
Taste of Vitae gets a lot of blood.
Reactions package is designed for !Malks only, and Fillips are simply
wonderful here: you will always have Hektor or Armin, but you will
never need to Wake them. Typically !Brujah don't have bounce, but
having it is always nice.
Finally, the stealth package is very slim (Creepshow Casino, 4
Forgotten Labyrinths and Malajit plus Forced Marches), but you don't
need much, either. When you get +2 Strength for your monsters, they
aren't going to be frequently blocked, especially Hektor :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deck Name: !Brujah with Preternatural Strength
Created By: Ilya Ginsburg (Ector)
Description: Hektor, Armin & Black Hand !Brujah fetch cards without !
Malks
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 18, Max: 40, Avg: 7.83)
----------------------------------------------
4 Hektor for CEL POT PRE QUI 9 !Brujah
4 Armin Brenner ani obf CEL FOR POT PRE 10 !Brujah
2 Mariano Pomposo aus cel pot 4 !Brujah
2 Wah Chun-Yuen cel dom pre POT 5 !Brujah
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (18 cards)
1 Fortitude
1 Powerbase: Madrid
2 Monster
1 Black Forest Base
1 Creepshow Casino
2 Dreams of the Sphinx
2 Zillah`s Valley
2 Trophy: Domain
1 Trophy: Hunting Ground
3 Liquidation
2 Drop Point Network
Action (10 cards)
3 Preternatural Strength
4 Red List
3 Gramle
Action Modifier (11 cards)
5 Iron Glare
6 Forced March
Political Action (8 cards)
3 Dogs of War
1 Ancient Influence
1 Political Stranglehold
2 Banishment
1 Peace Treaty
Combat (36 cards)
9 Immortal Grapple
4 Slam
6 Pursuit
6 Superior Mettle
5 Taste of Vitae
3 Weighted Walking Stick
3 Blur
Ally (1 cards)
1 Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
Retainer (1 cards)
1 Malajit Chandramouli
Combo (5 cards)
5 Resist Earth`s Grasp
Now, this is another version of the same deck, but without !Malks,
Toungues and bounce. You use Drop Point Networks and Gramles instead
of Sibyl's Tongues, and they are weaker. You use Liquidations instead
of Minion Taps to save blood and get some cards in your ash heap for
your Gramles. You cannot bounce, but your deck is much more
consistent: all your vampires have Potence and Celerity (Wah even has
superior Potence), and you have much more combat cards. Even your
stealth can be used in combat: it's new Resist Earth's Grasps.
Is this version better than the first one? Your choice! As usual, all
comments and ideas are appreciated.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
> This is the "ground-breaking" card, since we've never seen a card
> providing permanent +2 strength before.
Yeah, I'm still not seeing PS as particularly "ground breaking". There
have been countless cards that give out +1 strength permanently. And
equipment all over the place that does a similar thing. And none of
these have been tearing up the place. Yeah, +2 is better than +1, and +2
strength is better than a weapon that does +2 damage as a strike. But
still, hardly a massive shift in the game environment.
>Yes, there were cards for +2
> bleed, but even the best of them (Heart in the City) cost 2 blood, not
> one, and, seriously, this effect doesn't mean as much as +2 strength.
I'm not even sure what this means.
> The only question is "how to get Preternatural Strength in time?" You
> can easily build a low-cap POT deck with a lot of PretStrengths, and
> you'll get a better deck than traditional decks with TS/US, since one
> PretStrength replaces a lot of them.
No, no you won't get a better deck than traditional decks with TS/US. As
you note, you need to get them out. And need to not get blocked getting
them. And need to not choke on them after everyone has one. And need to
be able to waste the actions getting them.
> The best variants of POT decks usually use a
> second discipline: POT/CEL, POT/pro, POT/for and so on, but PS makes
> POT/obf decks much more attractive: you can not only reach the rush
> destination, but also push TS with your stealth.
POT/obf was already perfectly viable.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> > This is the "ground-breaking" card, since we've never seen a card
> > providing permanent +2 strength before.
>
> Yeah, I'm still not seeing PS as particularly "ground breaking". There
> have been countless cards that give out +1 strength permanently. And
> equipment all over the place that does a similar thing. And none of
> these have been tearing up the place. Yeah, +2 is better than +1, and +2
> strength is better than a weapon that does +2 damage as a strike. But
> still, hardly a massive shift in the game environment.
equipment (Drawing out the Beast and so on), and +2 stealth is better
than +1. Sometimes quantity makes the better quality. Guess why
PretStrength is the most expensive card of LotN at TheLasombra's
store?
> >Yes, there were cards for +2
> > bleed, but even the best of them (Heart in the City) cost 2 blood, not
> > one, and, seriously, this effect doesn't mean as much as +2 strength.
>
> I'm not even sure what this means.
This means: "doesn't mean as much to change the deck quality". Heart
in the City and Pulse of the Canaille never made the deck much better
than a bunch of +2 bleed modifiers, while I believe that PretStrength
really makes some decks much better.
> > The only question is "how to get Preternatural Strength in time?" You
> > can easily build a low-cap POT deck with a lot of PretStrengths, and
> > you'll get a better deck than traditional decks with TS/US, since one
> > PretStrength replaces a lot of them.
>
> No, no you won't get a better deck than traditional decks with TS/US. As
> you note, you need to get them out. And need to not get blocked getting
> them. And need to not choke on them after everyone has one. And need to
> be able to waste the actions getting them.
You've seen my decks. I could provide you more. And I really think
that the fetchdecks with PretStrength are going to be more stable than
the decks with a lot of single-use cards like TS/US.
> > The best variants of POT decks usually use a
> > second discipline: POT/CEL, POT/pro, POT/for and so on, but PS makes
> > POT/obf decks much more attractive: you can not only reach the rush
> > destination, but also push TS with your stealth.
>
> POT/obf was already perfectly viable.
Surely, but with PretStrength they became even better.
Yours,
Ector
Peter D Bakija
<5241bee3-f768-4d65...@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> +2 strength is better than +1, and non-equipment card is better than
> equipment (Drawing out the Beast and so on), and +2 stealth is better
> than +1. Sometimes quantity makes the better quality.
Yes. All of these things are true. But it doesn't negate the fact that,
again, +1 strength permanent add ons have been available forever. Heck.
Art of Pain already handed out +2 strength permanently. Which was pretty
good (just like Depravity giving out permanent +1 strength is pretty
good). But in either case, they weren't the backbone of any particularly
devastating strategy.
> Guess why
> PretStrength is the most expensive card of LotN at TheLasombra's
> store?
'Cause people haven't yet realized that the card just isn't that good?
Again, it isn't a bad card. It is a pretty good card. But it is hardly
earth shattering. There are certain decks that can benefit from it. Not
tons of them. And Torn Signpost is still gonna be preferable in most
average decks.
> This means: "doesn't mean as much to change the deck quality". Heart
> in the City and Pulse of the Canaille never made the deck much better
> than a bunch of +2 bleed modifiers, while I believe that PretStrength
> really makes some decks much better.
Ok then.
> You've seen my decks. I could provide you more. And I really think
> that the fetchdecks with PretStrength are going to be more stable than
> the decks with a lot of single-use cards like TS/US.
I have seen the decks you presented. They are fairly interesting. But
I'm unconvinced that the PS/fetch tech is going to do them huge favors.
The first one has 4 !Malks and a total of 2xPS and 4x Sybil's Tongue.
There is a *huge* chance that one of the necessary parts are just not
going to show up before it is too late. The second one has the same
issues, but needs Black Hand instead of !Malks. And not many more of the
necessary bits of tech. They are funny, but likely fragile and easy to
derail. Either of these decks would likely work much better if you just
took out the wacky PS tech and found room for a dozen Torn Signposts.
Heck, in the second one, you take out 2x Drop Point Network, 3xPS, 3x
Gramle, 3x Weighted Walking Stick, and you have room for 11x Torn
Signposts. Skim off the 2 Zillah's Valley (as 2 of them are
useless--you'll rarely have one in the first few turns when you need
it), and you have 13xTorn Signposts. Which will likely work *much*
better than the PS/fetch tech.
> Surely, but with PretStrength they became even better.
Not really across the board, no.
That PS prevents the use of Torn Signpost makes it much less fabulous
than you seem to imagine. As Torn Signpost is more or less the best
damage producing card Potence has. If you use a lot of PS, you can't
have TS in your deck, and any PS you draw after the first few are dead
cards. If you don't have a lot of PS in your deck, they are little more
than a opportunistic sideline for the deck--if you draw one and can play
it? Great! But otherwise, you need to be able to operate without them.
Yes, the goofy fetch tech is a clever way around the issue that is "I
have 10 Preturnatural Strength in my deck, but after I draw the first 3,
the rest are useless..." issue. But it has a lot of its own
problems--you need to draw a BH or !Malk (depending on your angle).
Gramle doesn't work till you already have a PS in play (or in the ash
heap...) and is easy to block. DPN requires 7 cards in the ash heap,
meaning you might not get to play it early. Clever? Sure. But unlikely
to be more effective than just having a dozen or so Torn Signposts.
Frederick Scott
news:pdb6-C986FB.2...@news-server.stny.rr.com...
> In article
> <5241bee3-f768-4d65...@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>> +2 strength is better than +1, and non-equipment card is better than
>> equipment (Drawing out the Beast and so on), and +2 stealth is better
>> than +1. Sometimes quantity makes the better quality.
>
> Yes. All of these things are true. But it doesn't negate the fact that,
> again, +1 strength permanent add ons have been available forever. Heck.
> Art of Pain already handed out +2 strength permanently. Which was pretty
> good (just like Depravity giving out permanent +1 strength is pretty
> good). But in either case, they weren't the backbone of any particularly
> devastating strategy.
Preternatural strength is not unique. This makes it far more usable in
a combat theme deck than Art of Pain. I don't know that it makes it a
fabulous card but it certainly is a different card.
>> Guess why
>> PretStrength is the most expensive card of LotN at TheLasombra's
>> store?
>
> 'Cause people haven't yet realized that the card just isn't that good?
I think you're both wrong. It's the second or third most expensive card
on EBAY right now (after The Unmasking and nip and tuck with Heart of
Nizchetus, I think) because of the combination of its usefulness AND how
many different kinds of decks it can be worked into. There are several
different clans that use potence and more than one bloodline besides.
When understanding why a card is in heavy demand, any factor which
increases or decreases demand comes into play and number of different
popular deck archetypes it fits into is definitely one of them.
> Again, it isn't a bad card. It is a pretty good card. But it is hardly
> earth shattering. There are certain decks that can benefit from it. Not
> tons of them. And Torn Signpost is still gonna be preferable in most
> average decks.
Hmmm. I think the market may disagree with you on that. At least, so
far...
Fred
Ector
Peter D Bakija wrote:
>
+1 strength permanent add ons have been available forever. Heck.
> Art of Pain already handed out +2 strength permanently. Which was pretty
> good (just like Depravity giving out permanent +1 strength is pretty
> good). But in either case, they weren't the backbone of any particularly
> devastating strategy.
Depravity is unique, it's master, it's +1 strength, and it's 1 pool.
Art of Pain is unique, it's master, it works only for !Toreadors, and
it's 2 pool.
PretStrength is NOT unique, NOT a master, works for any vampire with
POT (that are the best candidates for +2 strength anyway) and it's
just 1 blood. The difference is radical.
> > Guess why
> > PretStrength is the most expensive card of LotN at TheLasombra's
> > store?
>
> 'Cause people haven't yet realized that the card just isn't that good?
'Cause people already realized that it's very good :)
> Again, it isn't a bad card. It is a pretty good card. But it is hardly
> earth shattering. There are certain decks that can benefit from it. Not
> tons of them. And Torn Signpost is still gonna be preferable in most
> average decks.
> That PS prevents the use of Torn Signpost makes it much less fabulous
> than you seem to imagine. As Torn Signpost is more or less the best
> damage producing card Potence has. If you use a lot of PS, you can't
> have TS in your deck, and any PS you draw after the first few are dead
> cards. If you don't have a lot of PS in your deck, they are little more
> than a opportunistic sideline for the deck--if you draw one and can play
> it? Great! But otherwise, you need to be able to operate without them.
PS is probably the best example to demonstrate the advantages of
fetching permanents compared to multiple single-use cards. Sometimes
you can perform quite well without the additional strength (Hektor's
one aggravated is still quite good), but the additional strength is
desirable. And while fetching requires some extra actions, you can
fetch other cards, not just PS - for instance, you can fetch Monster
with Sibyl's Tongue, too.
> Yes, the goofy fetch tech is a clever way around the issue that is "I
> have 10 Preturnatural Strength in my deck, but after I draw the first 3,
> the rest are useless..." issue.
When I'm playing the POT/obf deck, I can safely assume that the first
FOUR PS will be useful... so I can put 6-8 of them and still have much
better chances for extra strength than 10-12 TS.
> But it has a lot of its own
> problems--you need to draw a BH or !Malk (depending on your angle).
So what? !Malks and BH vampires are integral parts of your deck. There
are four of them. Take fifth if you need better chances. There are !
Malks with superior Potence, too - Marge Khan even has POT/for.
> Gramle doesn't work till you already have a PS in play (or in the ash
> heap...) and is easy to block. DPN requires 7 cards in the ash heap,
> meaning you might not get to play it early. Clever? Sure. But unlikely
> to be more effective than just having a dozen or so Torn Signposts.
If I wanted to fetch ONLY TS, yes. But fetching gives you what you
need, while TS is always just TS. Try to put 12 of them, and you'll
find yourself periodically cycling them - but sometimes you will still
having none of them.
Yours,
Ector
reyda
> Skim off the 2 Zillah's Valley (as 2 of them are
> useless--you'll rarely have one in the first few turns when you need
> it)
qui vive or a "set up" freak drive. The fact that you can only have one
on a given vampire makes it a card you use in few copies. 2 is quite ok,
and not useless as you may think.
Johannes Walch
That would be absolutely correct if he had Zillah´s Tears in his deck.
Unfortunately he has 2 copies of Zillah´s Valley, which speeds up
transfers and is indeed useless during midgame (unless you have double
MPA and Anthelios of course).
--
Johannes Walch
Peter D Bakija
reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Zillah's valley is interesting in any sabbat deck. It's either a on the
> qui vive or a "set up" freak drive. The fact that you can only have one
> on a given vampire makes it a card you use in few copies. 2 is quite ok,
> and not useless as you may think.
No, no. Zillah's *Valley*, which is the Master that costs 5 pool and
gives you 4 blood on an uncontrolled vampire of capacity 8+.
Peter D Bakija
<81e7d3bb-1b6a-41e2...@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
> Depravity is unique, it's master, it's +1 strength, and it's 1 pool.
> Art of Pain is unique, it's master, it works only for !Toreadors, and
> it's 2 pool.
> PretStrength is NOT unique, NOT a master, works for any vampire with
> POT (that are the best candidates for +2 strength anyway) and it's
> just 1 blood. The difference is radical.
We could go back and forth on this forever. In the end, what I got is
that Preturnatural Strength is a pretty good card. But it doesn't really
provide an ability that wasn't already available. And as such, is hardly
the earth shattering card you seem to imagine it is.
> PS is probably the best example to demonstrate the advantages of
> fetching permanents compared to multiple single-use cards. Sometimes
> you can perform quite well without the additional strength (Hektor's
> one aggravated is still quite good), but the additional strength is
> desirable. And while fetching requires some extra actions, you can
> fetch other cards, not just PS - for instance, you can fetch Monster
> with Sibyl's Tongue, too.
Sure. But before you get out the PS, you are going "Man. I wish I had
more strength right about now..." and getting killed in the process.
> When I'm playing the POT/obf deck, I can safely assume that the first
> FOUR PS will be useful... so I can put 6-8 of them and still have much
> better chances for extra strength than 10-12 TS.
Really? FOUR? You don't say.
Listen. Again. The card is good. But in most situations, the transient
Torn Signpost is going to be more generally useful and easier to use.
Such that I have no reason at all to believe that PS is going to
supplant Torn Signpost as the most effective damage dealing effect that
Potence has. Yeah, once and a while, a deck relying on PS is going to do
well. As it is a pretty good card. But on average, you are *still* going
to be better off just using a handful of TS instead of building in
tenious Preternatural Strength tech.
Morgan Vening
<pd...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>> When I'm playing the POT/obf deck, I can safely assume that the first
>> FOUR PS will be useful... so I can put 6-8 of them and still have much
>> better chances for extra strength than 10-12 TS.
>
>Really? FOUR? You don't say.
>
>Listen. Again. The card is good. But in most situations, the transient
>Torn Signpost is going to be more generally useful and easier to use.
>Such that I have no reason at all to believe that PS is going to
>supplant Torn Signpost as the most effective damage dealing effect that
>Potence has. Yeah, once and a while, a deck relying on PS is going to do
>well. As it is a pretty good card. But on average, you are *still* going
>to be better off just using a handful of TS instead of building in
>tenious Preternatural Strength tech.
A lot of this depends on the metagame. In the tourney/Tier 1 meta, I
can see your points, and fully agree. In meta's like my own, where the
game doesn't really get started until turn 8 or 9, and where most of
the players tend to pack a lot of preventative combat (SCE and/or
DamPrev), Preternatural is a decent card, whereas a 12TS/IG/Rush deck
just falls over and dies, usually without coming close to it's first
prey.
My point, longwinded as it may seem, are two people arguing about two
completely different situations. In time past, Ector has stated his
group seems to lack certain staples (I think it was Psyche, in the
MN/Rot kerfuffle), that indicate they aren't necessarily playing at
the Game Completed, 8-10 turns in, 80minute type decks.
Essentially, the longer the game goes, in terms of amount of turns,
the more effective Preternatural becomes, and Torn doesn't. It's like
the old Computer Hacking vs Laptop. Speed vs duration.
Anyways, I'm babbling. Though I do like the idea of Lorrie with
Preternatural and Dead Hands.
Morgan Vening
James Coupe
Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> writes:
>We could go back and forth on this forever. In the end, what I got is
>that Preturnatural Strength is a pretty good card. But it doesn't really
>provide an ability that wasn't already available. And as such, is hardly
>the earth shattering card you seem to imagine it is.
From my point of view:
- Preternatural Strength is a good card.
- However, for several popular Potence archetypes, it causes problems.
They're weenies, and don't want to waste actions while they're
busy trying to control the table. It might be good in the late
game but you can't control when you draw it. They also don't
want to waste the blood if it takes them down to slightly closer
to death.
- If you're busy using deck control tech (Sibyl's Tongue, Drop Point
Network, whatever), this also doesn't fit with those deck
archetypes that want to use every possible action to rush or
bleed.
- It should make other archetypes more interesting, however. For
example, a Fattie Fortitude Freak Fest, with some Potence on the
side, could easily use this. A player with short chain
tendencies could use it. A deck with recycling/Twister tech
might like it (throw it away when it's rubbish, pull it back
when you want it).
- So, will it make the existing weenie decks more brutal? Possible in
some corner-cases, but unlikely. Might it be of interest to
multi-rush? Possibly. Might it make some other archetypes that
aren't so popular currently playable? Again, possibly -
hopefully probably. In particular, fatties with Potence and
Lost in Translation might be an interesting strand to a
particular deck. (Obviously, that wouldn't be the whole deck!)
- Overall, that seems to be the hallmark of a good card that has been
well-designed. It doesn't seem to overpower the most fearsome
and popular archetypes available already, and looks like it has
a chance to make some others more playable.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Daneel
>> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>>
> +1 strength permanent add ons have been available forever. Heck.
>> Art of Pain already handed out +2 strength permanently. Which was pretty
>> good (just like Depravity giving out permanent +1 strength is pretty
>> good). But in either case, they weren't the backbone of any particularly
>> devastating strategy.
>
> Depravity is unique, it's master, it's +1 strength, and it's 1 pool.
> Art of Pain is unique, it's master, it works only for !Toreadors, and
> it's 2 pool.
> PretStrength is NOT unique, NOT a master, works for any vampire with
> POT (that are the best candidates for +2 strength anyway) and it's
> just 1 blood. The difference is radical.
I'm not sure it's such a big advantage that PS is an action. Of the POT
decks that would benefit significantly from +1/+2 Strength permanent
solutions, most that I can think of off the top of my head would rather
not lose an action tooling up.
Notable exceptions are pot/for decks e.g. Gargoyles due to availability
of Freak Drive and slower, Bruise-type combat decks, a Guruhi or
!Brujah Bruise and Vote deck coming to my mind.
--
Regards,
Daneel
Salem
> In article
> <81e7d3bb-1b6a-41e2...@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
>> Depravity is unique, it's master, it's +1 strength, and it's 1 pool.
>> Art of Pain is unique, it's master, it works only for !Toreadors, and
>> it's 2 pool.
>> PretStrength is NOT unique, NOT a master, works for any vampire with
>> POT (that are the best candidates for +2 strength anyway) and it's
>> just 1 blood. The difference is radical.
>
> We could go back and forth on this forever. In the end, what I got is
> that Preturnatural Strength is a pretty good card. But it doesn't really
> provide an ability that wasn't already available. And as such, is hardly
> the earth shattering card you seem to imagine it is.
you're so wrong Peter. Bowl of Convergence is TOTALLY going to kill
stealth bleed.
wait, what was this discussion about again?
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Peter D Bakija
Salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> you're so wrong Peter. Bowl of Convergence is TOTALLY going to kill
> stealth bleed.
>
> wait, what was this discussion about again?
Badum-bum-ka-TCHING!
Ector
>
> you're so wrong Peter. Bowl of Convergence is TOTALLY going to kill
> stealth bleed.
>
> wait, what was this discussion about again?
>
Ector.
Johannes Walch
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> In article
>> <81e7d3bb-1b6a-41e2...@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
>> Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>>
>>> Depravity is unique, it's master, it's +1 strength, and it's 1 pool.
>>> Art of Pain is unique, it's master, it works only for !Toreadors, and
>>> it's 2 pool.
>>> PretStrength is NOT unique, NOT a master, works for any vampire with
>>> POT (that are the best candidates for +2 strength anyway) and it's
>>> just 1 blood. The difference is radical.
>>
>> We could go back and forth on this forever. In the end, what I got is
>> that Preturnatural Strength is a pretty good card. But it doesn't
>> really provide an ability that wasn't already available. And as such,
>> is hardly the earth shattering card you seem to imagine it is.
>
> you're so wrong Peter. Bowl of Convergence is TOTALLY going to kill
> stealth bleed.
Well, actually a Bowl of Convergence *does* usually kill the S&B deck,
given the fact that when you play Bowl you are likely to have more AUS.
But having that extra +2 all the time makes a *huge* difference. Luckily
(well, at least for the S&B) not everybody plays the Bowl.
On the other hand I don´t see eiter that PN is immensly game changing.
But it is a step toward combat decks that don´t need to devote 50-60
cards to the combat section and can actually do something else when
needed (like ousting).
--
Johannes Walch