Trophy rule-nitpicking
Mark
what the majority of our players already thought, more nitpicking
occured. Reason why this all came up in the first place is someone
going for a decent trophy deck, in which Amaranth is supposed to play
a role. Another thing then came up.
I quote (translated to english for your convenience):
"It's kind of ridiculous that you're not getting a trophy when you
block a red-list minion coming out of torpor and diablerize the sucker
on the spot."
The big question is: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks
from deserving trophies?
Keeping in mind that the rules about Red-List and trophies state:
Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red
List minion for the current turn. Any ready vampire she controls may
enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth (D) action
that costs 1 blood. Each vampire can take this action only once each
turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D)
action (including diablerie), his controller may go through her
library, ash heap and/or hand to get a master trophy card to put on
that vampire and then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her
hand size as necessary. Other trophies may be moved to this vampire,
as well (see section 1.6.2). This is done before the blood hunt
referendum is called, if any.
For some of us, it makes perfect sense that you have to actively try
to burn a red-list minion (read: burn in combat or by a (D) action,
including diablerie). But others don't understand why, in the case of
diablerie, there is a difference between diablerie as a (D) action and
diablerie as a result of a blocked self-rescue attempt.
So the question stands: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks
from deserving trophies?
Oortje
or did you forgot to include the selfrescue-diablerize in the red-list
rule?
Blooded Sand
Very good question. This could make Trophy Wall decks very playable....
Mark
Indeed. The Trophy Wall deck is what started this discussion. Please
enlighten us!
XZealot
> So the question stands: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks
> from deserving trophies?
It was designed to exclude burning as a result of an undirected
action, i.e. PTO.
Blooded Sand
Well PTO is gone now, so this could be a reasonable revision if tha
was original design intent....
Yes it will still allow Veles Hunt decks to pull that trick........
Yeah.....
Haze
I'm assuming it was a necessary exclusion, to create a simple rule
without exception clauses.
You can't score trophies on your own minions. Requiring the kill to be
during (1) combat or (2) direct action nicely rules it out, since it's
impossible to be in combat with yourself, and impossible to perform a
direct action against yourself (unless there's a loophole here with
the changed multiple-targets rule)
block-self-rescue-diablerie would require an exception saying "oh yeah
it's also okay during this one specific block-self-rescue-diablerie
scenario"
ALTERNATE HYPOTHESIS: ritual of the bitter rose doesn't work during
block-self-rescue-diablerie either, so might as well follow the
precedent!
Mark
Well, my personal opinion in this is that I think the rules for
trophies are fine as they are. Burn a red-list minion in combat or
through (D) action (including diablerie) and you deserve a trophy.
Burning as a result of an undirected action, I think, is not in line
with the trophy angle.
floppyzedolfin
And diablerizing your own vampire. And playing Set's Curse on your own
Ossian / Jayne Jonestown / ...
Izaak
> without exception clauses.
You mean like you gain a trophy when you
a) burn a redlisted minion in combat or as a (D) action
b) diablerize a redlisted vampire
Simple, clean, without exception clauses and still perfectly sensible. And
it gets rid of the awkward "including diablerie". And I made that up in 10
seconds. I'm not buying this odd differentiation was made to keep the rules
simple.
LSJ
> The big question is: was it intended to exclude self-rescue-snacks
> from deserving trophies?
From receiving trophies, yes.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8ce0bc1735d6fb46
Blooded Sand
I disagree, as you allow diablerizing your own red list minions.
Tighten it down, make it
"you gain a trophy if one of your minions burns a red list minion as a
d action or by diablerie."
Blooded Sand
Haze
Okay I diablerize my own redlisted vampire, and get all my trophies.
Blooded Sand
I disagree, as you allow diablerizing your own red list minions.
XZealot
....or Auto-da-fe
....or Eldest Command Undeath
....or Sacrifice
....or Diablerizing your own Red List Vampire
....or burning Jayne Jonestown with Set's Curse or Barrenness
Izaak
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> schreef in bericht
news:f30f61a5-35ef-480a...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> From receiving trophies, yes.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/8ce0bc1735d6fb46
And the obvious follow-up: why?
I mean, the rules are perfectly clear here, but I'm just wondering why this
choice was made?
Fluff? (cos that'd make somewhat sense, although fluff has been 'broken'
regularly for playablity and on this occassion I'd argue it'd have been
better off if self-rescue snacks were included in trophies)
Balance? (discouraging trophy walls cos walls are boring anyway, combat too
strong (ye sure!))
Easier rule? (arguably not the case, actually)
Something else?
Izaak
"Haze" <headle...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1768a50a-8ac5-44ae...@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
Fine. 'Controlled by another Methusalah'. Fixed it for you.
Hey, it could even be "burn a red listed minion controlled by another
Methusalah" and it would be even easier!
So ye you can use Velen's Hunt and Set's Curse and whatnot but you know
what, I'd LOVE to see more trophy/redlist play instead of it being a random
gimmick that needs entire decks built around them (+ tons of combat) and are
then even less efficient at winning games than vanilla combat is. There's
like, what, 3 trophy decks in the TWDA?
Izaak
"XZealot" <xze...@cox.net> schreef in bericht
news:f2f03c9c-c28f-4c0b...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Yeah..... I bet this comes up a lot.
And why would that be bad?
XZealot
> "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> schreef in berichtnews:f2f03c9c-c28f-4c0b...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Because once active, Trophies are extremely powerful. Any method of
Gerrymandering trophies onto minions should be eliminated for game
balance.
Does that answer your question?
Izaak
No. It's still a royal pain in the bollocks to first red list a minion and
then burn it. Whether this is by playing an Amaranth or an Auto-da-fe
doesn't matter in the slightest. The only thing it does is actually allow
you to find a trophy other than Diablerie from your library when you finally
manage to collect a trophy.
Which trophy is so powerful for you that it warrants such a restrictive and
fail-prone mechanism to activate?
XZealot
> "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> schreef in berichtnews:5642e6b3-5b61-4aa6...@r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a
wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play
alex fnurp
> Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a
> wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play
No, its not easy to get into play, dont be silly.
No secrets + (pack alpha) raven spy + rack + random hunting Ground is
simpler if thats all you want to achive. It also dies to pentex, block
denial and stuff like that just like yours does. And its not going to
give you VPs consistently at *all*
Izaak
>> > Gerrymandering trophies onto minions should be eliminated for game
>> > balance.
>> > Does that answer your question?
>>
>> No. It's still a royal pain in the bollocks to first red list a minion
>> and
>> then burn it. Whether this is by playing an Amaranth or an Auto-da-fe
>> doesn't matter in the slightest. The only thing it does is actually allow
>> you to find a trophy other than Diablerie from your library when you
>> finally
>> manage to collect a trophy.
>>
>> Which trophy is so powerful for you that it warrants such a restrictive
>> and
>> fail-prone mechanism to activate?
>Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a
>wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play
Eternal Vigilance + Superbowl.
No Secrets + Raven Spy
Less cards, less actions, less moving parts and doesn't require precious
MPA's. You ever played trophy decks against players that actually try to
win?
Juggernaut1981
I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done
whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you
could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation...
"When a minion you control burns a Red List minion during combat or
diablerises a Red List minion that is controlled by another
Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that
already exists]"
I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs-
Tourneys
XZealot
I have crushed players with Basilia + Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain +
Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack
It is horrific
John McGlynn
> I have crushed players with Basilia + Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain +
> Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack
> I have crushed players with Basilia
> Basilia
I missed you, XZealot!
--
John McGlynn
Basilia is an honorary Tremere in my mind.
alex fnurp
> I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done
> whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you
> could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation...
>
> "When a minion you control burns a Red List minion during combat or
> diablerises a Red List minion that is controlled by another
> Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that
> already exists]"
I still dont get why I cant blow up my own Ossian with a seth's curse
and collect trophies. It still requires a decent amount of setup and
the outcome can be achived by other means (and isnt dependent on you
blowing up your own 3-pool investment :P). I am of course more than
willing to surrender this stance if someone show me how this can be
superabused.
> I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs-
> Tourneys
Indeed. It gets really tiresome to see and isnt doing anything good
for the game :(
alex_fnurp
XZealot
So changing the rules to make it easier for you to score trophies is
somehow good for the game?
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
XZ,
If it diversifies things so that Dominate Death of 1000 4-Bleeds and
Flicks... and Death to your Kindred Spirits... are more difficult
decks to use to win Qualifiers; GREAT.
I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that
vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..." or
"Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of them...
I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..."
Kevin M.
> I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that
> vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..."
> or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of
> them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..."
If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the
playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players
fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death.
If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Oortje
Thanks thats all i wanted to know. Im not intrested in the why, I just
like to hear that LSJ is in control.
Gr,
Oortje
Oortje
>
> I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at Local Qualifiers and Non-Champs-
> Tourneys
Wow you really have a weird playgroup. One of the last tournaments in
belgium there were just 9 players, of which 7 had dedicaded bleed.
Simple and effective. Guess what nergal-bleed won, because he bled
harder then the others.
If you want to promote bleed, play it youself. And smile every time
you oust. :)
Blooded Sand
Oortje, maybe reading his post would help?
and i quote " I'd like to see more than BLEEEEED at ..."
ie he would like to see things other than bleed all the time. and you
respond by saying if he wants more bleed....
Izaak
>It is horrific
Clearly it's so horrific and way too easy to pull off that it dominates the
TWDA and tournaments in general. O wait...
Reality check: just because /you/ "crush" players on a random casual table
with a funny but inefficient deck doesn't make it a strong strategy.
Trophies suck. Anything to make them better is more than welcome.
alex fnurp
> So changing the rules to make it easier for you to score trophies is
> somehow good for the game?
What trophy is so good it breaks the game? And if the rule is changed
it wouldnt be only for me you know, there wouldnt be a paragraph that
says "If your name is A.Gyhlesten you may play it like this
instead" :P
If you could burn your own red list minion trophy-decks arent going to
run rampant all of a sudden...
Francis Plamondon
The reason behind this rule is simply to make Trophies difficult to
get. I had a friend who wanted to do the following: get a crypt of
Ishtarri and recruit Informants, call votes to make the Informants
Red List, then use Kindred Segregation to burn all the Informants once
you have a few Trophies on the table. Since the Informants naturally
pass to your predator every turn, they'd become "annother methuslah's
minion". If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D)
Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no
tomorrow.
Trophies are powerful and should take some effort to get them. Good
trophy decks do exist; I've seen one with Adana de Sforza calling
Anathema on someone, rushing and destroying that minion in combat the
same turn, then usingTrophy: Progeny to provide meat shields against
his own predator. They are not easy to make, sure, but when they work
they can be quite efficient.
Izaak
>The reason behind this rule is simply to make Trophies difficult to
>get. I had a friend who wanted to do the following: get a crypt of
>Ishtarri and recruit Informants, call votes to make the Informants
>Red List, then use Kindred Segregation to burn all the Informants once
>you have a few Trophies on the table. Since the Informants naturally
>pass to your predator every turn, they'd become "annother methuslah's
>minion". If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D)
>Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no
>tomorrow.
And every other Meth could try and kill the 1 life mortal and collect
trophies. Or they vote down the Seg. Or - you know what -, they pay the 0
pool cost to keep the informant in play! Score!
What you mean is, I guess, The Secret Must be Kept. That already combo's
somewhat with Informants although clearly you'd be better off calling a KRC
instead. Of course, if you all get this working, you have a deck that can
reliably pass votes, churn out informants that won't be blocked, defends
itself from aggressive predators cos it takes like 2 million years to setup
and then is still exactly 0% on the way of ousting its prey. Sounds like new
TWDA abuse.
And then still... the trophies need - except 1 - to be in play to actually
do anything. That in itself takes up an MPA each and every turn. How many
turns are you going to put trophies on the table?
>Trophies are powerful and should take some effort to get them. Good
>trophy decks do exist; I've seen one with Adana de Sforza calling
>Anathema on someone, rushing and destroying that minion in combat the
>same turn, then usingTrophy: Progeny to provide meat shields against
>his own predator. They are not easy to make, sure, but when they work
>they can be quite efficient.
Ye see, this is where I disagree. Trophies are shit. You can keep making up
examples of how bad decks somehow dominated games when all the stars aligned
but that doesn't make trophies "quite effective", because it's rather
amusing to me. It gets even funnier when you are talking about a deck that
even combines two totally ineffective strategies (Anathema and Trophies) and
then claim it's being done with Adana de Sforza who CAN'T EVEN CALL
Anathema's.
Clearly trophies need help.
XZealot
The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists.
An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion
Red List
Card Idea
Nowhere to Hide
Master
Trifle
Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller
can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool.
librarian
>> Clearly trophies need help.
>
> The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists.
You would know.
>
> An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion
> Red List
>
> Card Idea
>
> Nowhere to Hide
>
> Master
> Trifle
>
> Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller
> can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool.
>
Trifle to cause your prey to burn a pool. Hmmm. I feel it's too strong.
(compare to Golconda).
I would add a couple more qualifiers: Chose a non-titled minion controlled
by another methuselah.
best -
chris
XZealot
> XZealot wrote:
> >> Clearly trophies need help.
>
> > The biggest problem with trophies is making Red Lists.
>
> You would know.
>
>
>
> > An idea that hasn't been explored is a master card that makes a Minion
> > Red List
>
> > Card Idea
>
> > Nowhere to Hide
>
> > Master
> > Trifle
>
> > Chose a minion, that minion is now Red List. That minion's controller
> > can cancel this card by burning 1 Pool.
>
> Trifle to cause your prey to burn a pool. Hmmm. I feel it's too strong.
> (compare to Golconda).
All it does is Red List you though
Perhaps it should be, chose a non-Red List Minion. That way if they
load their deck up with them, then the counter-strategy is to let them
Red List all your vampires then they jam up on them.
Janne Hägglund
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look, that
> > vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my pool now..."
> > or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do the rest of
> > them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while you flick..."
>
> If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the
> playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players
> fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death.
>
> If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED.
Wow. I could actually hear the resonance and the reverb in that last word.
And see the lights darken and the flames start to flicker.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomyDoomsOfDoom
HG
Juggernaut1981
wrote:
> On Jun 8, 6:05 pm, Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 6:25 am, alex fnurp <a.gyhles...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 8 Juni, 19:57, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Trophy:Domain + Trophy Domain + Trophy Hunting Ground + The Rack is a
> > > > wall that you will never get past. It's easy to get into play
>
> > > No, its not easy to get into play, dont be silly.
>
> > > No secrets + (pack alpha) raven spy + rack + random hunting Ground is
> > > simpler if thats all you want to achive. It also dies to pentex, block
> > > denial and stuff like that just like yours does. And its not going to
> > > give you VPs consistently at *all*
>
> > I had actually honestly assumed that Trophy Collecting was done
> > whenever you burned a Red Lister that wasn't your's. Seems like you
> > could create a very simple rule that would cover the situation...
>
> > **diablerises a Red List minion** that is controlled by another
> > Methuselah... [rest of the Gain Trophies, have fun, etc, etc, etc that
> > already exists]"
If allowed to burn them through a vote rather than a (D)
> Action, that deck would simply hoard Trophies like there's no
> tomorrow.
"Burns DURING COMBAT or via DIABLERIE" (which would allow the Amaranth-
Eat as well as (d)-action eat)....
as opposed to the current which is "By taking a (D) action"
About the only that manages to exclude is you using Nos/!Nos to burn
Ossian with Horseshoes at 6 stealth... (obf-pot)
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
Enemy of the State
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth
(d) Action.
Choose a non-Red List minion. The target minion becomes Red List. If
this action was taken by a Prince, Archbishop, Baron, Justicar or
((Whatever it was that Karsh got from the Storyline)) then this acting
minion untaps at the resolution of this action regardless if it is
successful.
Juggernaut1981
We have done that, we do do that and all it becomes is "Hot Potato"
with a 2 bleed... or until someone cycles into an Archon Investigation
for a 4+ bleed.
Kevin M.
> Janne Hägglund wrote:
>> "Kevin M." writes:
>>> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>>>> I'd be much happier to see Basilia Trophy-Walls than "Oh look,
>>>> that> vamp has Obf & Dem... I guess I should just pack up my
>>>> pool now..." or "Oh look, that 3-cap has dominate... and so do
>>>> the rest of them... I'll just wait for my GPred to oust me while
>>>> you flick..."
>>
>>> If this is what you are experiencing, then you and EVERYONE in the
>>> playgroup should be playing bounce and/or reduce, so that players
>>> fear playing their Bleedy Deck Of Death.
>>
>>> If you don't metagame, you'd doomed to failure. DOOMED.
>
> with a 2 bleed... or until someone cycles into an Archon
> Investigation for a 4+ bleed.
Then your playgroup isn't learning very much.
If players continue to play their Bleedy Deck Of Death even though
everyone continues to play bounce and/or reduce, then someone should
play an intercept wall with Smiling Jack, someone should play a Draba
deck, someone should play Dark Influences, and someone should play Una
or another serious combat deck.
If not, please give me the address of your playgroup so I can come
up there and wreck you all. ;)
Juggernaut1981
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Please bid on my auctions!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Address: Sydney Australia. Feel free to come past, we have better
beer and better beaches [/poking KJM]