Lucita -- play Lasombra cards?
Neil
Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but
my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not
marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a
Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat
bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . .
Anyone? Thanks.
Neil Paananen
Archbishop of Denver
Noal McDonald
> Forgive me if someone has already answered this,
> but can Lucita play Lasombra cards?
Sure. She fulfills the requirement for any card that requires a
Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that
require a Sabbat vampire.
What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text states
"Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos,
Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ethan Burrow
http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/rulebook.html
I would assume that future Non-Camarilla & Non-Sabbat vampires will also
state 'Independent' instead of 'Non-Camarilla' to avoid the confusion
created when Sabbat came out.
In article <8li0r4$1lc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text
> states "Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the
> Ravnos, Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state.
-------------------------------
Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin
et...@ddg.com
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
"Neil" <paan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play
but
> my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is
not
> marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she
has a
> Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat
> bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . .
>
> Anyone? Thanks.
Unfortunantly, she may not play Lasombra cards. The clan symbol which
is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra
antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play
Lasombra cards.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
>
> Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play
> Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but
> my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not
> marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a
> Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat
> bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . .
Yes. She is Lasombra.
She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example, attempt
a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the Elysian
Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example.
If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same clan
as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a
member of Clan Lasombra).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
R. David Zopf
Noal McDonald wrote in message <8li0r4$1lc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> "Neil" <paan...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> Forgive me if someone has already answered this,
>> but can Lucita play Lasombra cards?
>
>Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that
>require a Sabbat vampire.
>
>"Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos,
>Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state.
>
it isn't enough of a definition anymore. Effectively, the four clans you
mention are all meant to say Independent. "Non-Cam" was thought to be
sufficient at the time DS and AH were printed. Not so anymore (this
thankfully makes Closed Session quite a useful card...)
Regards,
R. David Zopf
Atom Weaver
V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC
LSJ
> Sure. [Lucita] fulfills the requirement for any card that requires a
> Lasombra. However, she doesn't fulfill the requirement for cards that
> require a Sabbat vampire.
>
> What I find odd, now that I think about it, is that her card text states
> "Independent" instead of the "Non-Camarilla" text that the Ravnos,
> Giovanni, Setites and Assamites vampires state.
From the rulebook:
Other clans (introduced in the Dark Sovereigns(TM) and Ancient Hearts(TM)
expansions) are identified simply as "Non-Camarilla" on card text*. These
vampires are not aligned with either sect; they are called Independent.
* The term "Non-Camarilla" is slightly misleading, since the
Sabbat vampires are "Non-Camarilla" as well, and the Independent
vampires are as much "Non-Sabbat" as they are "Non-Camarilla".
(Section 10)
LSJ
> The clan symbol which
> is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra
> antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play
> Lasombra cards.
That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon which
V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. It replaces the old 'L' symbol.
Both symbols serve to identify Lasombra. Any new Lasombra printed will
use the new symbol.
Similarly, the Tzimisce symbol has also been changed in the World of
Darkness.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Neil wrote:
> >
> > Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play
etc., but
> > my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she
is not
> > marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her,
she has a
> > Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat
> > bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . .
>
> Yes. She is Lasombra.
>
> She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example,
attempt
> a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the
Elysian
> Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example.
>
> If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same
clan
> as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a
> member of Clan Lasombra).
>
I believe you are mistaken as to which clan the crown on a blood splotch
belongs to. It belongs to Lasombra Antitrubu, who split with the clan
when the antedelluvian was diablerised. So, she could no more play
Lasombra cards than Ian Forestal could play Tremere cards. Also it goes
against card text. The symbols are different for the Lasombra "L" and
the Lasombra Antitribu crown/bloodsplotch. Which by the definition of
the rules the cards which require a clan must have a ready vampire of
the same clan as the clan symbol in the left hand boarder. Her clan
symbol does not even match the "L" in the left-hand boarder. So from a
gameplay point of view it makes no sense for her to be able to play
Lasombra cards.
If you grabbed a White Wolf catalog from the White Wolf booth at Dragon
Con, then you should see under the pins section that the crown on a
bloodsplotch is a Lasombra Antitribu (I vahuely remember there being
pictures in the catalog).
Frederick Scott
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>Neil wrote:
>>
>> Forgive me if someone has already answered this, but can Lucita play
>> Lasombra cards? Obviously, Malk Antitribu can't play Malk cards, etc., but
>> my thought would be that she could play Lasombra cards because she is not
>> marked as a different clan (I believe it says Independent on her, she has a
>> Lasombra background and symbol, but I don't know about the sabbat
>> bloodspot). Course, I don't have the card yet, but . . .
>
>Yes. She is Lasombra.
>
>She isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't, for example, attempt
>a Crusade: Miami action, but she could receive a stealth from the Elysian
>Fields or play a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example.
>
>If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra ("the same clan
>as the acting vampire"), and will be Sabbat (the default sect for a
>member of Clan Lasombra).
This is the first example of a kindred being a member of a clan but
not the sect that the clan is normally associated with, is it not?
If so, I hope this doesn't expose any new wrinkles in the rules. Or I
should say, any _more_ new wrinkles, as this business of Lucita's embraced
being a member of the Sabbat even though Lucita isn't is an example of
just what I'm talking about.
I suppose something like this was going to come up some day.
Fred
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > The clan symbol which
> > is in the top left corner is not the Lasombra symbol but the
Lasombra
> > antitribe symbol. She is not a Lasombra and therefore maynot play
> > Lasombra cards.
>
> That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon which
> V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra. It replaces the old 'L' symbol.
> Both symbols serve to identify Lasombra. Any new Lasombra printed will
> use the new symbol.
>
> Similarly, the Tzimisce symbol has also been changed in the World of
> Darkness.
You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to
what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra
antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two
links to the new symbols.
for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto
http://secure.white-
wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--
eqskudatarq=5668
for the new Lasombra symbol goto
http://secure.white-
wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--
eqskudatarq=5634
I appologise for the length of the thread but this is a internet
community, and no this is not the tequila worm talking.
LSJ
> > > card] is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra antitribe
> > > symbol.
> >
> > That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon
> > which V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra.
>
> what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra
> antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two
> links to the new symbols.
>
> for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto
Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the
standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the
"compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has).
Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used
since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol
includes both the crown and the wax seal.
> for the new Lasombra symbol goto
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
> > [Lucita] isn't Sabbat (she's Independent), so couldn't,
> > for example, attempt a Crusade: Miami action, but she
> > could receive a stealth from the Elysian Fields or play
> > a Camarilla Vitae Slave, for example.
> >
> > If she creates an Embrace, the Embrace will be Lasombra
> > ("the same clan as the acting vampire"), and will be
> > Sabbat (the default sect for a member of Clan Lasombra).
>
> This is the first example of a kindred being a member of a
> clan but not the sect that the clan is normally associated
> with, is it not?
The first example of it by text on the vampire, yes.
It has been possible before with Writ of Acceptance.
> If so, I hope this doesn't expose any new wrinkles in the
> rules. Or I should say, any _more_ new wrinkles, as this
> business of Lucita's embraced being a member of the Sabbat
> even though Lucita isn't is an example of just what I'm
> talking about.
>
> I suppose something like this was going to come up some day.
It is not a new wrinkle - the same would be true if Gloria
Giovanni with a Writ (A Camarilla Giovanni) created an
Embrace - the Embrace would be Giovanni and Independent.
Similarly for Nigel the Shunned with a Writ (A Camarilla
Nosferatu Antitribu) who Embraces (A Nosferatu Antitribu who
is Sabbat).
And thus for Lucita as well.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > > > The clan symbol which is in the top left corner [of Lucita's
> > > > card] is not the Lasombra symbol but the Lasombra antitribe
> > > > symbol.
> > >
> > > That symbol is the new World of Darkness (the "real" world upon
> > > which V:TES is based) symbol for Lasombra.
> >
> > You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to
> > what they have been changed to. Lucita clearly has the Lasombra
> > antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra symbol. Please follow these two
> > links to the new symbols.
> >
> > for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto
>
> http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5668
>
> Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the
> standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the
> "compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has).
If you compare this to all the other antitribu symbols they all have the
normal clan symbol laid on top of what you call a "compass star"
> Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used
> since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol
> includes both the crown and the wax seal.
Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is antitribu, but the
rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax seal/compass star. Following
the example the "L" on a bloodseal should translate as a crown without the
blood seal. The compass star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu
clans should translate as a bloodseal in V:TES.
> > for the new Lasombra symbol goto
>
> http://secure.white-wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--eqskudatarq=5634
>
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
LSJ
> Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is
> antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax
Lucita is not antitribu.
There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla).
> seal/compass star. Following the example the "L" on a bloodseal
> should translate as a crown without the blood seal. The compass
> star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu clans should
> translate as a bloodseal in V:TES.
Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I.
But, to avoid confusing the reader who is interested in the
ramifications for this game:
The wax seal in this game is part of the clan symbol, and is
part of the clan symbols for all clans that are part of the
Sabbat - including Pander, Lasombra, and Tzimisce (which are
not antitribu).
The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the
clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage
may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a
Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra).
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is
> > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax
>
> Lucita is not antitribu.
http://www.activision.com/games/vampire/
Where it says:
Be It Known By All Present and Their Progeny,
In response to the petition from Lucita, Lasombra antitribu and Beckett
of Clan Gangrel, seeking preemptive-strike authority against kine
targets for prevention of Masquerade breach:
> There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
There wasn't until they printed Lucita.
> Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I.
Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your ruling
is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to
transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa.
You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. The
Lasombra are one of the clans that is the backbone of the Sabbat. The
Tzimice are the other. They are not antitribu clans and therefore do
not have the wax seal behind the symbol, which IMHO is the reason they
are changing symbols. The change in symbols also allows them do
designate antitribu status by placing a starburst/waxseal behind the
clan symbol. There are several Lasombra antitribu mentioned in the
roleplaying game and Lucita is one of them. She is also designated
antitribu.
> The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the
> clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage
> may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a
> Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra).
This is a seemingly self-contradictory statement. Lucita has a waxseal
behind her clan symbol and independent in the bottom left-hand corner. I
always thought that the little word Sabbat in the bottom left-hand
corner designated Sabbat.
I understand there is some difficulty in converting roleplaying
characters to VTES. You are the rulemonger and these are the issues
that create your job. I also understand you are on the design team for
Sabbat War, and I respectfully disagree with how this is handled.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
James Hamblin
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> In article <8lkc1u$ohn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >
> > Lucita is not antitribu.
>
> yes, she is. please refer to
[snip RPG reference]
Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered)
antitribu (for purposes of game-play).
> > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
>
> There wasn't until they printed Lucita.
OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire named
Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu? That's like critiquing the
Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from
season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than
Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I am
being a bit facetious, but you get my point.
> Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your ruling
> is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to
> transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa.
> You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol.
I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people
who already play the game. Look, they're going to reprint all of the
old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is
correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra,
whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti
Lasombra. That will cause no end of confusion.
This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is a
set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the
"regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra
antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A
special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates
between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah
antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between
Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate
between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist).
Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big
deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a
Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra
and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to
differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_
have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra antitribu,
but they didn't.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"You never understood me / you never really tried."
-- Kate Bush
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
> Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered)
> antitribu (for purposes of game-play).
Bingo, a clarification on a card as soon as it is printed. I thought we
were trying to avoid these types of things
> > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
> >
> > There wasn't until they printed Lucita.
>
> OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire
named
> Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu?
Actually the Lucita we are talking about is the Lucita from the Clan
Novel:Lasombra. Notice the picture on the card is the cover from the
clan novel. I am glad we now on the same page.
That's like critiquing
the
> Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from
> season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than
> Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I
am
> being a bit facetious, but you get my point.
I don't play Babylon 5 nor do I like the television show so I don't get
your point
> I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people
> who already play the game.
Actually, I am trying to reduce the amount of confusion for new players
entering the game from the RPG who are already familiar with the clan
symbols. I am bringing this point up prior to the release of the Sabbat
War while it is still being proofed so that possibly this new clan
symbol for VTES may be altered to follow along the lines of the existing
new clan symbol for V:TM. It is fact that players, who are already
familiar with the V:TM and the other games from the White Wolf universe,
become V:TES players more easily than other gamers because they have a
firm grasp on the background material. I think new players are a good
thing (TM), and I think that reversing who is antitribu and who is not
is confusing to new players.
> old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is
> correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra,
> whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti
> Lasombra. That will cause no end of confusion.
James have you been following this thread? Please go to message number
eight where I posted links to the new Lasombra symbols on the White-Wolf
server. You will notice here that the old Lasombra "L" on a
waxseal.starburst has been replace by a crown which is not on a
waxseal/starburst. The crown on a waxseal/starburst is reserved for
Lasombra antitribu. So now clan Lasombra has two symbols. The old one
is a L on a waxseal/starburst, and the new one which is a crown without
a waxseal/starburst. Lucita (the card) has a waxseal behind the crown,
which prior to LSJ's contradictory statement above is the symbol for
Lasombra antitribu.
Now to address your point your old Gratiano will still be Lasombra
because the L on a waxseal/starburst was the symbol for clan Lasombra.
Clan Lasombra got a new symbol, but the old one is still valid.
> This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is
a
> set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the
> "regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra
> antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A
> special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates
> between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah
> antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between
> Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate
> between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist).
Good analogy, but like all analogies it is wrong. There is a reason
people don't compare apples to oranges. That reason is because they are
two different things.
> Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big
> deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a
> Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra
> and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to
> differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_
> have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra
antitribu,
> but they didn't.
Strangely enough James, they use a different clan symbol to
differentiate between Brujah Antitribu and Brujah and also every other
clan that has a antitribu counterpart. V:TES is based upon the
White Wolf game Vampire: The Masquerade and this is the source for
all the clan symbols in Vampire:The Eternal Struggle which are
identical for every clan in both V:TES and V:TM. This is my point. The
clan symbol on the left hand boarder is the clan symbol for Lasombra
antitribu. "Why?" you ask, because White Wolf has published both the
Lasombra clan symbol and the Lasombra antitribu clan symbol for V:TM,
but not for V:TES, and on top of that they have introduced a new clan
symbol in V:TES which identical to be a Lasombra Antitribu symbol for
everyplayer who plays V:TM which is the source for all intellectual
properties used in V:TES.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
>
> [snip RPG reference]
>
> Maybe he should have said: (the) Lucita (card) is not (considered)
> antitribu (for purposes of game-play).
Bingo,
> > > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
> >
> > There wasn't until they printed Lucita.
>
> OK, so you're basing this on the fact that there's an RPG vampire
named
> Lucita who happens to be Lasombra Antitribu?
The Lucita card is based upon the Lucita vampire who's picture on the
card in the same as the picture on the Clan Novel: Lasombra. They are
one in the same. I am glad we are on the same page now.
That's like critiquing
the
> Babylon 5 CCG version of John Sheridan by saying "in episode 13 from
> season 4, Sheridan clearly indicated that he had more Intrigue than
> Londo, so his Intrigue number should be higher than Londo's." OK, I
am
> being a bit facetious, but you get my point.
Actually I don't play Babylon 5 and I don't watch the television show.
So, I don't get what you are talking about.
> > Not to belabor a point, but I guess I will. My problem with your
ruling
> > is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to
> > transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and
vice-versa.
> > You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol.
>
> I should think that they're also trying not to alienate all the people
> who already play the game. Look, they're going to reprint all of the
> old Sabbat Lasombra with the new symbol (assuming what LSJ says is
> correct). So you'd say that the new Gratiano is an anti-Lasombra,
> whereas my old Gratiano (his evil twin, perhaps?) is regular non-anti
> Lasombra.
James, have you been following this arguement? Please refer to Message
Eight in this thread where I posted:
"You are correct. They have been changed, but you are mistaken as to
what they have been changed to.
Lucita clearly has the Lasombra antitribu symbol not the new Lasombra
symbol. Please follow these two
links to the new symbols.
for the Lasombra antitribu symbol that is displayed on her card goto
http://secure.white-
wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--
eqskudatarq=5668
for the new Lasombra symbol goto
http://secure.white-
wolf.com/catalog/results.tpl?action=full&cart=3047312507220691&--
eqskudatarq=5634
You will notice that these threads lead you to the White Wolf server to
two clan symbols. One a crown is the Lasombra symbol, and the other, a
crown on a waxseal/starburst, is the Lasombra Antitribu symbol. These
are new symbols for the clans. The old Lasombra symbol was a letter L on
a waxseal/starcrest. Both the new Lasombra clan symbol (a crown) and
the old Lasombra clansymbol (a L on a waxseal) are valid. So your old
Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old
and still valid Lasombra symbol.
> This is probably ill-advised, but let me use a math analogy: there is
a
> set of vampires called "Lasombra". Included in this set are the
> "regular" Lasombra (confusingly called just "Lasombra") and "Lasombra
> antitribu". According to this thinking, Lucita _is_ a Lasombra. A
> special kind of Lasombra. Now, in game terms, the game differentiates
> between some "tribus" and anti-tribus (like the Brujah and Brujah
> antitribu), but not others. The game doesn't differentiate between
> Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu just like it doesn't differentiate
> between Assamites and Assamite antitribu (assuming such exist).
That is a good analogy. But like all analogies, it is wrong. There is a
reason people don't compare apples oranges. That is because they are two
different things.
James, there are both Lasombra and Lasombra antitriu and also Assimites
and Assimites Antitribu. Examples of both exist Lucita being a Lasombra
Antitribu and Tariq being a Assimite Antitribu.
> Regardless of how you look at it, I think that (a) it won't be a big
> deal for players coming from V:TM to make the jump from Lucita being a
> Lasombra antitribu to her being an "independent" (non-Sabbat) Lasombra
> and (b) it _would_ be a big deal if we had to use the clan symbol to
> differentiate between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. They _could_
> have done the printing in a way to make Lucita be a Lasombra
antitribu,
> but they didn't.
Let me explain to you reason why I am yelling at the rain. The Sabbat
war is hopefully in proofing right now. As you can see above White Wolf
has already published the symbols for the Lasombra and their antitribu
counterparts for Vampire: The Masquerade.. I know that L. Scott Johnson
is on the design team. I believe IMHO that one of the reasons that
White Wolf is continuing support for Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is
that it allows them to tap into a very lucretive CCG market. In doing
so people will crossover from the Vampire: The Eternal Struggle CCG into
White Wolf's roleplaying games and vice-versa. As I am sure you know
this is called cross-marketing. To create a environment for this to
occur one must create similarities between the two. Lucita is a good
example of a very prominent Lasombra Antitribu from the novels that new
players can look at her in the new Inquest and say,"cool I remeber
her". They then buy a pack of VTES cards to see what it is all about.
Now if a very prominent Lasombra Antitribu (which is what her symbol is
to anyone familiar with the roleplaying games of White Wolf) can now
play Lasombra cards. This creates confusion to a new player who because
he or she now thinks that all antitribu (Gangrel, Brujah, etc.) can play
normal and antitribu in-clan cards, where as in reality they cannot.
This sort of self-contradiction leads to disillusionment with the game
and causes players to leave. Then they find out she is not a Lasombra
antitribu but in reality a Lasombra, contrary to what they find familiar
on the right hand margin which is a Lasombra Antitibu symbol.
Again,this sort of self-contradiction leads to disillusionment with the
game and causes players to leave.
The only way players would know one way or the other is to check the
newsqroup. So now are we requiring every player to have internet access
on top of buying the cards, and be able to find and read the newsgroup.
I want new players to pick up V:TES. I want Sabbat War to succeed. I
am a huge fan of this game. I want there to be as little confusion for
new players who are just picking up the game and are trying to teach
themselves how to play.
Richard D. Zopf
snip
>You will notice that these threads lead you to the White Wolf server to
>two clan symbols. One a crown is the Lasombra symbol, and the other, a
>crown on a waxseal/starburst, is the Lasombra Antitribu symbol. These
>are new symbols for the clans. The old Lasombra symbol was a letter L on
>a waxseal/starcrest. Both the new Lasombra clan symbol (a crown) and
>the old Lasombra clansymbol (a L on a waxseal) are valid. So your old
>Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old
>and still valid Lasombra symbol.
You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly
upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the
compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use
the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the
same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since
it goes across two different game platforms.
Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of
his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources (Elysian
Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their
lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy.
Regards,
R. David Zopf
guenh...@mindspring.com
James Hamblin
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> The Lucita card is based upon the Lucita vampire who's picture on the
> card in the same as the picture on the Clan Novel: Lasombra. They are
> one in the same. I am glad we are on the same page now.
My point is that while the Lucita card is based on the character from
the book, the reproduction is not (and IMO cannot be) perfect. If the
card game is not going to have any such thing as Lasombra antitribu (and
I think the decision has been made, for reasons of simplicity), then
they have to make the Lucita card conform somehow. Is it an imperfect
reproduction. Yes. Is it worth including the extra complication
(another clan, Lasombra antitribu) to resolve this imperfection? In my
opinion, and apparent also in the opinions of the designers, no.
> Actually I don't play Babylon 5 and I don't watch the television show.
> So, I don't get what you are talking about.
I was trying to use a non-Vampire analogy since my knowledge of the RPG
world is slim. I'll try again:
You could be saying "in the book, Lucita clearly displays knowledge of
the discipline Mortification, whereas her card version doesn't have that
discipline." (Note, that's a made-up word; feel free to replace it with
some real V:TM discipline for which no cards have been printed.) Now,
the designers _could_ print her with Mortification, but they'd have to
make a new symbol for it, and would probably feel obligated to print
some Mortification cards. This would unnecessarily complicate an
already complex game.
By analogy, the designers _could_ make the card Lucita be a Lasombra
antitribu, but there aren't any Lasombra antitribu cards, and there are
already what, 20 some clans in the game?
I'm not saying that it would have been unreasonable for them to have
done this, but they didn't. And I understand why they didn't.
> So your old
> Gratiano is still a Lasombra, not a antitribu, because he bears the old
> and still valid Lasombra symbol.
I will bet money that the new Gratiano will have the crown-on-waxseal
symbol. This is the assumption on which my post was (and this one is)
made.
> James, there are both Lasombra and Lasombra antitriu and also Assimites
> and Assimites Antitribu. Examples of both exist Lucita being a Lasombra
> Antitribu and Tariq being a Assimite Antitribu.
Is Tariq a V:TES card? I'm not intimately familiar with all the
Assamites from Ancient Hearts, but I'll go out on a limb and assume
not. In which case it is completely irrelevant (to the card game) that
Assamite antitribus exist. To me, a non-RPG'er, it is _completely_
reasonable for me to assume that when some Brujah talks about "those
pesky Assamites", he is lumping together the regulars and the
antitribus.
> The Sabbat
> war is hopefully in proofing right now.
I think this another fundamental difference in our underlying
assumptions. I figure that (since they've already printed Lucita) that
the set is beyond changing on more than a superficial level. If I'm
wrong, then it is certainly possible that WW can go back and make a
(card game) distinction between Lasombra and Lasombra antitribu. I
still don't think they should, but that's another issue.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"Well, I couldn't see what was to be /
So I just stood there laughing."
-- Kate Bush
James Coupe
>> Lucita is not antitribu.
>yes, she is. please refer to
This is V:TES, not V:TM.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
<guenh...@mindspring.com> writes
>You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly
>upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the
>compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM.
The displays my local gaming store in have:
Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra
--
James Coupe
Rafid Armani
D. Zopf) wrote:
>You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly
>upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the
>compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use
>the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the
>same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since
>it goes across two different game platforms.
You are right in saying that the wax seal and the compass star aren't
the same thing. But Norm is right when he says that the Lasombra sign
is just a crown with nothing under it.
The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition
of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore
(they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to
identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the
Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross
on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the
Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star.
But this is true only for the clans with an Antediluvian. If you take
the blood lines who belong to the Sabbat (Kiasyd, Blood Brothers,
Harbingers of Skulls, Serpents of the Light), or if you take the
Pander clan, they have a symbol with a compass star under it, even if
they are not antitribu. (you're all confused yet ? : )
SO, if the designers of the Sabbat War expansion would have liked to
respect all the new clan symbols from the third edition of V:TM, they
should have put a crown with nothing under for the Lasombra, a serpent
self-biting-tale (I'm not sure how you say it in english...) with
nothing under for the Tzimisce, and all the other clan symbols should
have been put on a compass star (all the antitribu and the Pander).
I would have like it more that way, but I'm sure -- I hope -- they had
some reasons for not respecting it.
Rémy Auclair, VEKN prince of Québec, Qc
ra...@mediom.qc.ca
www.mediom.qc.ca/~rafid/
James Coupe
<ra...@mediom.qc.ca> writes
>SO, if the designers of the Sabbat War expansion would have liked to
>respect all the new clan symbols from the third edition of V:TM, they
>should have put a crown with nothing under for the Lasombra,
The actual displays of the clan pins that I've seen have been set up
with Lasombra with a wax seal.
--
James Coupe
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
> You realize, of course, Norm, that your argument hinges significantly
> upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the
> compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM. You use
> the term waxseal/starburst or waxseal/starcrest, like they were the
> same thing. I'm not so certain that's an accurate assessment, since
> it goes across two different game platforms.
Let me explain how I arrived at the waxseal equating to the starcrest.
I applied transverse logic to my symbolic analysis. Transverse logic
dictates that if "A" ia "B" and "B" is "C" then "A" must be "C".
Mathmatically it works out as:
If A=B
and B=C
then A=C
Here are the facts as they lay.
1)The Brujah Symbol with a waxseal is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol
2)The Brujah Symbol with a starburst is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol
Mathmatically let
A= the Brujah Symbol
b= the Wax Seal
C= the starburst
D= the Brujah Antitribu symbol
then the above statement would be
1) A + b = D
2) A + C = D
Since both are the Brujah Antitribu symbols they are both equal
therefore
The Brujah Symbol with a wax seal is the Brujah Symbol with a Starburst
Mathmatically that would be
A + b = A + C
If you now eliminate the like component (the Brujah symbol) from both
sides of the equation you arrive at
The waxseal is the starcrest
b = C
If you would like you can apply this arguement to any symbols that
translate from V:TM to V:TES with the exception of Lucita's clan symbol.
> Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of
> his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources (Elysian
> Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their
> lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy.
I agree with that as well.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <8lvf4k$p65$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, Richard D. Zopf
> <guenh...@mindspring.com> writes
> >upon having the wax seal on the old Sabbat VTES set equate to the
> >compass star of the new anti-tribu clan symbols from V:TM.
>
>
> Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra
Strange, on this side of the pond it is a crown without the waxseal
which is the Lasombra symbol. Please refer to message number eight of
this thread for the links to the White-Wolf server that display the
above mentioned symbols. Why would White Wolf use conficting symbols in
separate locations (one being the web and the other being your local
store). Is it possible that your local store misshelved the the pins in
the improper locations?
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
Correct, My point is that the intellectual material is the same.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
antitribu clans and their appropriate symbols when they translated it
into V:TES. Now they break from that with this Lucita card by
including a Lasombra antitribu and a new symbol which conflicts with
the published clan symbol. This creates confusion.
James Coupe
>Please refer to message number eight of
>this thread for the links to the White-Wolf server that display the
>above mentioned symbols.
I did. This is why I referenced the pins I have seen for sale.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
>> This is V:TES, not V:TM.
>
>Correct, My point is that the intellectual material is the same.
Oh, entirely.
Shall we stop a 7 cap with inferior Protean playing, say, Body of Sun,
because they really need much higher Protean?
Shall we introduce a system based on multiple levels of disciplines,
where each vampire has to have a specific number in each one?
Shall we prevent people doing multiple things in each round, unless they
have celerity?
V:TES is based on V:tM. It is not, by any means, an entirely carbon
copy of the game.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
> Now they break from that with this Lucita card by
>including a Lasombra antitribu and a new symbol which conflicts with
>the published clan symbol. This creates confusion.
Thus LSJ has clarified the issue for you, so there shall be less
confusion.
--
James Coupe
Andrew S. Davidson
>You are right in saying that the wax seal and the compass star aren't
>the same thing. But Norm is right when he says that the Lasombra sign
>is just a crown with nothing under it.
>
>The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition
>of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore
>(they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to
>identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the
>Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross
>on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the
>Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star.
You seem to have the best understanding of this issue - thanks for the
detailed explanation. I would only add that it is clear that the wax
seal meant Sabbat rather than Antitribu because, if you look at the
seal by itself (on the Sabbat rules sheet, for example), you can see
that it is a signet letter S.
Having said that, I would agree with Norman that, if Lucita is really
Lasombra antitribu, she should be shown as such and that the game
should have appropriate symbology to represent this status. It is
important for the CCG to be faithful to the RPG. I have just bought a
copy of the RPG main book and find that it enhances my understanding
of the CCG considerably - I now better understand cards like The Rack
and the Traditions.
I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a
thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere
thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by
making the card free of prerequisites. In a similar way, reviewers
have been criticising the Vampire computer game because opposing
vampires disintegrate into dust (Buffy-style) rather than going into
torpor when defeated. Continuity and consistency are a good thing and
deviations from them are bad.
Andrew
Passenger Pigeon
<DA12C8CC2B5CD2E9.AFCF044D...@lp.airnews.net>,
a...@csi.com wrote:
> I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a
> thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere
> thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by
> making the card free of prerequisites. In a similar way, reviewers
Gameplay > consistency.
--
William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com
This post < should be.
Visit my web page! Current essay: Happiness. http://come.to/passenger-pigeon/
LSJ
> James Coupe <ve...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> > The displays my local gaming store in have:
> >
> > Crown with Wax Seal -> Lasombra
>
> Strange, on this side of the pond it is a crown without the waxseal
> which is the Lasombra symbol.
> separate locations
They do not conflict.
In the WoD, the Crown symbol is the symbol for Lasombra.
The wax seal is the seal of the Sabbat.
A Lasombra symbol with a wax seal is a Lasombra symbol on a Sabbat seal.
A Lasombra symbol without a sect seal is a Lasombra symbol.
In the card game, though, all Lasmobra are marked with a WoD Lasombra
symbol (a crown or an ell) on a Sabbat seal.
This includes Gratiano as well as Lucita, since both are Lasombra.
In the card game, there are no Lasombra antitribu, so there is no
need to make a Lasombra-crown-in-an-antitribu-star symbol.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> Let me explain how I arrived at the waxseal equating to the starcrest.
> I applied transverse logic to my symbolic analysis. Transverse logic
> dictates that if "A" ia "B" and "B" is "C" then "A" must be "C".
> Mathmatically it works out as:
> If A=B
> and B=C
> then A=C
>
> Here are the facts as they lay.
> 1)The Brujah Symbol with a waxseal is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol
> 2)The Brujah Symbol with a starburst is the Brujah Antitribu Symbol
>
> Mathmatically let
> A= the Brujah Symbol
> b= the Wax Seal
> C= the starburst
> D= the Brujah Antitribu symbol
>
> then the above statement would be
> 1) A + b = D
> 2) A + C = D
>
> Since both are the Brujah Antitribu symbols they are both equal
> therefore
You have "proved that D = D. The above does not "prove" that b = C,
since you have incorrectly assumed that the was seal and the star
are "additive" in the same way. They are not.
Try this: Sabbat are positive. Camarilla are negative. "Brujah" (A)
is assigned the value -1 (clan 1, Camarilla). The star symbol
represents multiplication by -1. The Wax Seal represents taking the
absolute value. Brujah Antitribu (D) is assigned the value 1 (clan 1,
Sabbat).
Now: Star(A) = 1
And: Seal(A) = 1
This, by your logic above, leads to the conclusion that Star() and
Seal() are identical mappings (functions).
Bu now examine the clan Lasombra, L. L is assigned the value 2 (clan
2, Sabbat). Lasombra Antitribu (if it existsed) would be assigned the
value -2 (clan 2, Camarilla).
Star(L) = -2, but Seal(L) = 2.
So Seal() is not equivalent to Star()
> > Mind you, I think it doesn't jive that a vampire independant of
> > his/her clan should be able to have access to clan resources
> > (Elysian
> > Fields, Lasombra HG, etc. in Lucita's case) presumably due to their
> > lack of involvement in clan politics/hierarchy.
>
> I agree with that as well.
"Independent" is not something that applies to clan here - Lucita
is "independent" of the two sects, not of the Lasombra clan (at least,
in the card game).
This has been established long ago when handling the effects of Writ
of Acceptance. The precedent established there applies without
modification (no "special cases") to Lucita, to avoid confusion.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
LSJ
> yes, she is. please refer to
Again: Lucita, the promo card for V:TES, a property owned by
White Wolf, does not represent a Lasombra Antitribu vampire.
The card represents a unique Lasombra vampire, at least
according to all official sources.
> > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
>
> There wasn't until they printed Lucita.
All official sources say that there is still no Lasombra
Antitribu in the V:TES property owned by White Wolf.
> My problem with your ruling
It is not a "ruling", since there is no ambiguity to resolve.
Lucita is printed with the Lasombra symbol, therefore the card
represents a unique vampire of Clan Lasombra.
> is that White Wolf is trying to make it as easy for players to
> transition from the card game to the roleplaying game and vice-versa.
> You do not do that by reversing which clan has which symbol. The
They are not reversed - Lasombra use the Crown (on a Sabbat Seal)
symbol, not the Crown-in-star symbol that the Lasombra Antitribu of
the RPG use.
By trying to equate the Sabbat Seal with the Antitribu Star, one
produces a contradiction / reversal.
The remedy for this is to stop equating the two, since they are
not equal.
> Lasombra are one of the clans that is the backbone of the Sabbat. The
> Tzimice are the other. They are not antitribu clans and therefore do
> not have the wax seal behind the symbol, which IMHO is the reason they
They are Sabbat, and therefore may use the Sabbat Seal under their
symbol (in the WoD). In the card game, they *always* use the wax
seal, since that is part of their clan symbol in the V:TES property.
> are changing symbols. The change in symbols also allows them do
> designate antitribu status by placing a starburst/waxseal behind the
> clan symbol. There are several Lasombra antitribu mentioned in the
Lasombra Antitribu (in the WoD) use the star antitribu symbol.
They do not use the Sabbat Wax seal, since they are not Sabbat.
> roleplaying game and Lucita is one of them. She is also designated
> antitribu.
Lucita is not antitribu in the V:TES property.
> > The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the
> > clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage
> > may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a
> > Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra).
>
> This is a seemingly self-contradictory statement. Lucita has a
> waxseal behind her clan symbol and independent in the bottom
> left-hand corner. I always thought that the little word Sabbat in
> the bottom left-hand corner designated Sabbat.
See my previous post in this thread regarding Lucita's use of
the Lasombra symbol.
http://www.deja.com/threadmsg_md.xp?AN=650505943
mgre...@my-deja.com
>
> I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a
> thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere
> thing.
Woooooooah. That's it! the Mother Lode!! Revert the errata and make it
Tremere only. It's the only way to make these bad boys playable.
Wow. You could have a Tremere wake/block/get-your-arms-ripped-off/go to
torpor before round 2/chantry style deck. Technology of the highest
order. Or wait, wait you could have a high point Tremere
play-multiple-shotgun-rituals-then-read-what-S:CE-does deck. Hell's
teeth this is amazing. Or how about the infamous 30 Weather conrol, 30
wwef deck! Oh my word!! The deck that totally destroys your prey then
folds up and dies like a wet origami frog. The way forward for sure.
/shakes head. Chantry. You can almost hear the designers talking:
"Well, these Warlocks keep getting smeared across the floor. Should we
make them better in combat?"
"No. I have a better idea..."
Heavens to Murgatroid. Even a full power Wake wouldn't make me want to
play these guys in a tournament. Still, I can always pin my hope on
Sabbat war to give me all those neat !Tremere cards to make my shoe box
of pentagram covered wallpaper playable again. Oh, hang on....
matt.
Noal McDonald
just pointing out a inconsistency in the argument.
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> Lasombra Antitribu (in the WoD) use the star antitribu symbol.
> They do not use the Sabbat Wax seal, since they are not Sabbat.
The problem in using this argument is that, IIRC Lucita has the wax
"Sabbat seal" behind the crown, but also has card text stating that she
is Independent, not Sabbat. Unfortunately, once someone seizes on this,
your argument will be more difficult to defend.
In this case, it might just be better to just tell X_Zealot that he's
wrong and to quit making a pest of himself.
Or if you'd rather be more diplomatic, just say that the wax seal is
part of the clan symbol and holds no other significance. Note that it is
also part of the clan symbols for the antitribu clans for consistency.
If at some (very distant) future point, Lasombra Antitribu cards are
printed, the symbol will be sufficiently different so as not to cause
confusion.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
James Coupe
s.net>, Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
>It is
>important for the CCG to be faithful to the RPG.
I tend to find it more useful for a CCG to be playable than just an RPG
on cards.
>I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a
>thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere
>thing.
It would imply that it is a thaumaturgical thing. Thaumaturgy is, of
course, an important thing to the Tremere, but it is far from exclusive
to them.
--
James Coupe
James Hamblin
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> Mathmatically that would be
> A + b = A + C
>
> If you now eliminate the like component (the Brujah symbol) from both
> sides of the equation you arrive at
>
> The waxseal is the starcrest
> b = C
You're assuming that you can "subtract" components from these symbols
with any sort of meaning. As a mathematician-in-training, I of course
object. In many mathematical systems, you can add, but you can't
subtract or even "cancel" as you did above. Your analogy is seriously
flawed.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"Let's split him open / like a pomegranate
Insides out / all is revealed"
-- Kate Bush
Andrew S. Davidson
>> I note, by the way, that Wake with Evening's Freshness is a
>> thaumaturgical ritual and so the RPG implies that this is a Tremere
>> thing. It bothers me that the CCG appears to have got this wrong by
>> making the card free of prerequisites.
>Gameplay > consistency.
It appears that we got neither. Maybe if Wake had required
Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have
required such severe errata. Win-win.
Andrew
Andrew S. Davidson
>It would imply that it is a thaumaturgical thing. Thaumaturgy is, of
>course, an important thing to the Tremere, but it is far from exclusive
>to them.
Mayhap. But the RPG talks only of Tremere, e.g. "This ritual allows a
Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..."
Andrew
Derek Ray
wrote:
Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a
vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't
cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The
mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the
potential of "untap while tapped" in mind.
It's useful to note that the Sabbat expansion could have simply
reprinted Wake, as it did with many other common cards - but chose to
remove the reference to the Tremere ritual as well as to alter the
functionality. I can't help but suspect that the namechange itself
stemmed from complaints just as the one above - that the RPG
translation was oopsed.
-- Derek
Jack-Booted Thug of Atlanta
Richard D. Zopf
> Continuity and consistency are a good thing and
>deviations from them are bad.
This is fine, so long as you don't take it as dogma. Dealing with
torpor in VTM Redemption isn't a complication that game needs to be
playable (although it might be neat if a torporized vamp were to come
back an get you later :-) That would make for some programming
difficulties, though, I'm sure).
Including a harmless (non-copyrighted) special effect like a vamp
turning to dust (upon being "dusted", heh) is fine, especially if a
little crossover appeal sells more copies of the game... (More
Redemption sold means more R&D money for V:TES... :-)
What I'm really saying is that I hear a lot from people who want the
computer game and the CCG to look, feel and act exactly like the
tabletop RPG. Not only would this make the PCG and CCG tedious and
boring, it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games,
and would likely put WW out of business with overburgeoning R&D that
ultimately sells only slightly different product to the same limited
pool of buyers (the original RPG fans). Odds are, this is part of the
reason that the looser the WoD rules ties, like with Redemption and
VTES, the better the end product (anyone up for a game of Rage?
Except _you_ Legbiter...;-)
Andrew S. Davidson
>Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a
>vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't
>cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The
>mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the
>potential of "untap while tapped" in mind.
Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or
any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. Wake clearly supposes that
the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
Andrew
James Coupe
>Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..."
In some cases. If you read 3rd edition, the Tremere are often referred
to - since in many instances it was the Tremere who created the rituals,
as the foremost thaumaturges - but it should also be noted that it
doesn't exclude other vampires from learning them, even in the cases
where it does not that
For instance: 2nd AND 3rd Edition - "At the first level of Thaumaturgy,
the vampire automatically gains a single Level One ritual."
2nd Edition on Wake: "This half hour ritual must be performed
immediately before a vampire prepares to sleep through the coming
day..... The ritual allows the protected Kindred to immediately awaken
at any sign of danger during the next day." It makes no mention of the
Tremere in 2nd edition.
Similarly, if you read 3rd edition "Deflection of Wooden Doom":
"This ritual protects the Tremere.... A stake merely held near the
Tremere.... The thaumaturge must.... the vampire places"
It certainly seems that the terms Tremere, thaumaturge and vampire are
used somewhat loosely to represent the term "minion with this ritual"
(using the V:TES term minion, since some humans can learn some
thaumaturgy. Whilst Wake itself wouldn't be so great - though it might
make a good burglar alarm - others would be.)
All I would infer from such - as per Deflection of Wooden Doom - is that
it simply didn't occur to White Wolf as the editing was done, since it
just read off the page as they understood it. Also, they are quite
quick to point out changes from 2nd to 3rd, in order to provide some
form of mysterious (or less mysterious) back change - e.g. the fact that
rituals can fail in 3rd edition, the spread of Dementation amongst the
Malkavians. Were it to have been an intended change from 2nd, a line
along the lines of "The powers of this ritual have been weakening for
the past several hundred years but, now, a critical point has been
reached and only the more expert use of the Tremere is sufficient to
utilise this ritual. Some suspect that this is another sign of the
impending Gehenna, as vampires will lose their defences to the
Antediluvians."
Also, the literal reading you take would prevent the Tremere Antitribu
from utilising the ritual.
And if we are to take the idea of an RPG on cards, the card would
actually read something like this:
"This card must be played as you end your minion phase, with a tapped
vampire. You may burn this card during any minion's action. When you
burn this card, roll a 10 sided die. If you roll a 1, this card is
simply burned, otherwise you may attempt to block as if untapped."
Another point to note is that it is significant that the Wake
implementation in V:TES is counter to that of the implementation in
V:tM. Wake, in V:TES, protects you during the day and your slumber.
However, a vampire (under normal circumstances) will only be acting at
night. Since this is the case, the Wake ritual would be relatively
useless, since the vampire being used to block would already be awake.
We would have to add a line of something like "This card may only be
used during the actions of allies, or when a Daring the Dawn, Day
Operation or Dawn Operation are used to modify the action."
This is why the RPG is only used as a model and why it is not important
for the TCG to be "faithful" to the RPG, in the same way that, in some
instances, the RPG is not faithful to the mythology surrounding
vampires. The idea is to make a playable game. Sometimes kludges have
to be made.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
>Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have
>required such severe errata. Win-win.
But if it is important for a card game to be faithful to its parent RPG,
why are you selectively choosing to only make it require Thaumaturgy,
when there are other conditions, as per my other post?
All you do is add one requirement, and hardly make it a faithful
representation.
--
James Coupe
Noal McDonald
> Wake clearly supposes that
> the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
>
> Andrew
"This reacting vampire can use reaction cards..."
There you go talking out your ass again, Andrew. The card was designed
so that a tapped vampire could play reaction cards and/or block. Seems
to me that the wording intended for the vampire to be able to use a
"cheesy trick"...unless the trick you're referring to is the hand
cycling one. (If that's the case, ignore me.)
R. David Zopf
Andrew S. Davidson wrote in message ...
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:42:40 -0400, Derek Ray wrote:
>
>>Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a
>>vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't
>>cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The
>>mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the
>>potential of "untap while tapped" in mind.
>
>Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or
>the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
>
Misdirection, the auspex reaction... The master card has an overwhelming
effect, especially if you cannot untap. Thus, Derek was pointing out the
balance problem with Misdirect in the event that Wake were to be a thaum
and/or Tremere card...
Regards,
R. David Zopf
Derek Ray
wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 17:42:40 -0400, Derek Ray wrote:
>
>>Then what do you do with Misdirection, or any of the other "tap a
>>vampire" cards? If you aren't Tremere, don't have Animalism, or can't
>>cough up 2nd Tradition, you're screwed and defenseless. The
>>mechanisms of many, many cards were clearly designed with the
>>potential of "untap while tapped" in mind.
>
>Wake was clearly not designed to be used with with Misdirection, or
>any of the other "tap a vampire" cards. Wake clearly supposes that
>the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
Erm, I think you missed it a bit. Wake is one of the sole defenses
against the "tap a vampire" cards - what do you do about all of them?
Clearly, SOMETHING had to be made available to all vampires.
However, I beg to differ - Wake/(non-combat reaction) is a valuable
part of the game, and I'm certain the potential for such was designed
in (judging from the number of non-intercept reaction cards in Jyhad).
The "replace after combat" appears to have been an afterthought added
to match the template of cards like Arson, which also results in no
combat if you play stealth modifiers on top of it. They just missed
the wake-and-watch scenario.
Tom Kassel
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Wake clearly supposes that
> > the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
> >
>
> "This reacting vampire can use reaction cards..."
>
> There you go talking out your ass again, Andrew.
Very appropriate as dinosaur farts are in the news again. (Young China
Daily reporting some dubious Frenchman's theory of extinction).
Tom
James Hamblin
"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 09:41:24 GMT, Passenger Pigeon wrote:
>
>
> It appears that we got neither. Maybe if Wake had required
> Thaumaturgy and/or Tremere as a prerequisite, it would not have
> required such severe errata. Win-win.
Unfortunately, untap effects are instrumental to the balance of the
game. If only the Tremere or vampires with Animalism could untap (out
of turn), then card like Misdirection would be way too powerful, and so
the cycle of imbalance would continue. Making Wake undisciplined was a
decision based on the need for there to be untap effects generally
available. If this creates an inconsistency with the RPG, too bad. I'd
rather have a _good_ game than an _accurate_ game.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"You can protect yourself /
I'll show you how with fire."
-- Kate Bush
Merlisk
ra...@mediom.qc.ca (Rafid Armani) wrote:
[snip]
>
> The wax seal was used to designed Sabbat members in the second edition
> of V:TM. Now, in the third, they don't identify Sabbat members anymore
> (they don't use the wax seal anymore). They use the compass star to
> identify the antitribu (not all the antitribus are sabbat). So the
> Ravnos's sign is a cross, and the Ravnos antitribu's sign is a cross
> on a compass star. The same for the Lasombra with the crown and the
> Lasombra antitribu with the crown on a compass star.
This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent clans
joins the Camarilla (soon).
--
Best regards,
Merlisk
V:EKN Prince of Dallas
http://merlisk.tripod.com/jyhad/jyhad.html
Noal McDonald
> Making Wake undisciplined was a decision based on the need for
> there to be untap effects generally available. If this creates
> an inconsistency with the RPG, too bad. I'd rather have a _good_
> game than an _accurate_ game.
Preach it, brother.
Time and again, there is a desire by new players to make VTES into VTM.
They are _not_ the same game. While they are both based on the WoD, VTES
and VTM are entirely different products and (until recently) produced by
two very different companies.
If you want to play a RPG or a LARP, put the cards down and go get your
dice and costumes. Errata should not and (hopefully) never will be based
on the RPG or LARP. There are enough valid considerations without adding
an entirely subjective one.
Regards,
Noal McDoanld
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
Noal McDonald
> This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent
> clans joins the Camarilla (soon).
There are already political action cards in print that can handle this
plot twist. Inivitation Accepted and Ravnos Acceptance are two cards I
already find myself playing from time to time.
Regards,
Noal McDonald
James Coupe
>any of the other "tap a vampire" cards.
It was clearly designed to allow a tapped vampire to react as though
untapped.
Since Misdirection is the very obvious way to tap vampires (along with
Anarch Troublemaker), it seems likely that the interaction was
considered strongly.
> Wake clearly supposes that
>the vampire will enter combat, not use some cheesy trick.
You have asserted this before. Arson does not suppose that the vampire
will enter combat, even though it says "Do not replace until after
combat".
Are you seriously saying that no-one thought of waking and bouncing a
bleed?
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
<ham...@math.wisc.edu> writes
>If only the Tremere or vampires with Animalism could untap (out
>of turn), then card like Misdirection would be way too powerful, and so
>the cycle of imbalance would continue.
Princes/Justicars, Homunculi/Carrion Coffin, Masika.
Only 2nd Tradition matches the Wake functionality though. And both of
the other options would be hosed by Misdirection/Anarch Troublemaker.
--
James Coupe
James Coupe
deja.com> writes
> Merlisk <mer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> This is going to get really confusing when one of the Independent
>> clans joins the Camarilla (soon).
>
>There are already political action cards in print that can handle this
>plot twist. Inivitation Accepted and Ravnos Acceptance are two cards I
>already find myself playing from time to time.
And one very easy way would be a vampire, like Dan Murdoch, who
advocated the change to be created, who could go through your library to
pull it. "Blah Blah-Blah, Camarilla Sympathiser. Clan. Capacity.
Disciplines. Camarilla. You may take a +1 stealth action to go through
your library to retrieve a <join Camarilla vote> vote."
--
James Coupe
Andrew S. Davidson
>it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games
There are two sorts of cross-over. You're talking about getting
computer gamers to try WoD by offering them the sort of dumb,
hack'n'slash that they're used to. Most reviewers seem to have panned
this as a stupid bait-and-switch tactic. Anyway, I'm more concerned
with the cross-over between supposedly complementary WoD media types.
I was eyeing the WoD merchandise in my games shop the other day.
Eventually I bought a copy of the VtM RPG (and two boxes of VTES
cards). I was tempted to buy one of the novels but didn't have a
reason to buy a particular one. I'm mildly interested in the Lucita
one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG
Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely
coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help
the sales of WW products in general.
I am still curious to know more about many of the vampires in this
game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little.
What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s)
for this game worth getting?
Andrew
Andrew S. Davidson
>Ermm. he's referring to Misdirection, the master card, not Telepathic
>Misdirection, the auspex reaction... The master card has an overwhelming
>effect, especially if you cannot untap. Thus, Derek was pointing out the
>balance problem with Misdirect in the event that Wake were to be a thaum
>and/or Tremere card...
I see what you mean now. Misdirection is certainly a strong card - X
cards tend to be broken in any CCG. But Wake isn't a particularly
good counter to this card - you'd need several Wakes to counter the
effect of one Misdirection. Sudden Reversal looks a better choice in
this case.
Andrew
Tadeusz
> game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little.
> What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s)
> for this game worth getting?
There's no easy answer. 'Children of the Night' is a collection of
vampires, including some VtES minions' equivalents (Lambach, Lucita -- I
believe...) You might want to check out 'Children of the Inquisition',
which is more of the same, but is out of print and freely downloadable
(http://www.white-wolf.com/Download/Pages/Books2.html).
The Sect Guides and the Storyteller Guide don't have any vampires IIRC.
If someone's interested I could look up which minions have a VtM
equivalent.
Tadeusz
--
[ Clanbooklet : Tzimisce ]
[ http://netgarbage.com/users/enoch ]
Mark & Kathy ShaneWood
news:3987543A...@webmails.com...
The best source for _feel_, though, is probably the novels. I believe that
some of the older ones were even direct V:tES tie-ins, rather than V:tM
(wasn't that where Dan Murdoch came from originally?). There's a wonderful
scene in Clan Novel: Assamite involving Al-Ashrad (although seemingly a
somewhat different Al-Ashrad than the V:tES one), and Thetmes also makes an
appearance therein. Other V:tES vampires I can remember having appeared in
RPG material:
Gratiano, Kementiri, Lambach, Queen Anne, Etrius.
Mark Shanewood
V:EKN Prince of Minneapolis
www.qai.net/ShaneWood/coyote.htm
James Coupe
>cards tend to be broken in any CCG. But Wake isn't a particularly
>good counter to this card - you'd need several Wakes to counter the
>effect of one Misdirection.
Yes. And?
All the evidence, amassed over a number of years of playing, suggests
that Wake is a perfectly viable defence. How many games and tournaments
are you citing to support your position?
--
James Coupe
inr...@my-deja.com
>
> Mayhap. But the RPG talks only of Tremere, e.g. "This ritual allows a
> Tremere to awaken at any sign of danger..."
>
<Ahem> as far as i know the only RPG in V:tES:
RPG Launcher (Jyhad, V:TES)
2 pool -- Equipment
Weapon. 6R <damage> each strike; only usable after the first round
of combat; only usable at long range.
</Ahem>
Yes it isn't always consistent, but in V:tM you are a charactor doing
your own thing (as far as i can tell) in this you are controling your
V:tM esque charactor.
Look, in the WoD at least 3 groups control the financial markets, the
Giovanni, Pentex, and those annoying mages who i cant remember. It
depends on what facet of the game you are currently playing.
I would submit that jumping from one format to another allows for an
even greater bending of 'reality', especially to make both formats
playable.
Cameron
Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of
directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni.
....salem....
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
<snip>
>
> I believe you are mistaken as to which clan the crown on a blood
splotch
> belongs to. It belongs to Lasombra Antitrubu, who split with the clan
> when the antedelluvian was diablerised. So, she could no more play
i bet, when you get the new rulebook for THIS game, (not a different
game set vaguley in the same world...say, VTM for example) the the
lasombra symbol will be a crown in a red blood spot, and will be
equivalent to a "L" in a red blood spot. also, i suspect you will find
that there is no such thing as clan Lasombra antitribu.
which i feel points to the fact that Lucita, the VTES promo card, is a
Lasombra vampire. to what sect does she belong? lets look in the box at
the bottom of her card. oh, i see, she is independant.
So if a card requires a Lasombra, she can play it. if a card requires a
Sabbat vampire, she may not. is that hard? no.
do we need to try and force her to be exactly the same as VTM? No. if we
did, why are we doing it to her and not every single other thing about
the game? what makes one card so important that we have to break every
current game rule to make her the same as VTM? if we do give her a new
clan, Las anti, we should also give her all the diciplines she posessed
in VTM. and she should have a "capacity" of like 20, as i think that's
something like how much blood she can hold in VTM. and she shouldn't
need to spend blood to get a Palatial estate, as buying property
wouldn't cause blood to leak from her veins. but she should have to pay
for a superior nimble feat, as getting multiple actions with celerity
costs blood. but then, because she has celerity, and it would have a dot
rating instead of being in a box or diamond (because we are making her
the same as VTM, remember?) then she should just be able to burn one
blood to get that many extra ...extra what? actions or strikes? how does
it equate in VTES? it's kind of tricky...but oh, wait THEY ARE DIFFERENT
GAMES. dang. it'll be next to impossible to make her exactly the same as
in VTM. so why were we trying? that's right, because her symbol looks a
bit like some symbol from some other game, only different (blood splot
instead of compass star). so, it's not even the same symbol as the
symbol for the clan to which we were trying to insist she was a part of,
even though that clan doesn't exist in VTES.
> against card text. The symbols are different for the Lasombra "L" and
> the Lasombra Antitribu crown/bloodsplotch. Which by the definition of
> the rules the cards which require a clan must have a ready vampire of
> the same clan as the clan symbol in the left hand boarder. Her clan
> symbol does not even match the "L" in the left-hand boarder. So from a
> gameplay point of view it makes no sense for her to be able to play
> Lasombra cards.
ummm....when sabbat war is printed, and all the lasombra have
crown-on-splot symbols, they will be able to play cards that have
L-on-splot symbols. i personally guarantee it, and if they can't, feel
free to ring poke me in the eye with a pointy object.
--
_*__salem (Mr. Cranky-Pants after reading this whole thread.)
_*__http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/5848/
***__salem_...@my-dejanews.com
_*__and the rains came hammering down
James Coupe
>Yes it isn't always consistent, but in V:tM you are a charactor doing
>your own thing (as far as i can tell)
Your story teller isn't insidious enough. ;)
--
James Coupe
James Hamblin
"Andrew S. Davidson" wrote:
>
> I'm mildly interested in the Lucita
> one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG
> Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely
> coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help
> the sales of WW products in general.
Look, do you understand that the card game CANNOT be a perfect
representation on the role-playing game? Hence, Lucita (the card) is an
imperfect representation of Lucita (the RPG character). If people have
problems with this, one easy explanation is to tell them that the
Lucita's simply represent different people. The card Lucita is a
Lasombra (not a Lasombra antitribu) because Lasombra antitribu do not
exist in the card game.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"Oh, and think before you speak, my darling"
-- Everything But The Girl
LSJ
> I'm mildly interested in the Lucita
> one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG
> Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely
> coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help
> the sales of WW products in general.
I have never said, much less insisted, that Lucita's CCG stats' resemblance to
RPG/WoD stats is purely coincidental.
The opposite is true.
Her CCG stats are obviously based on her WoD stats.
What her stats were/are/become in any format other than the CCG are not
of consequence when determining how to read her CCG stats, however, now
that they have been set.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
inr...@my-deja.com
as far as i can tell<----, that was ment ironically. Yes, i know the GM
knows all and sees all, but there is some element of free will, no?
In any case that was just to point out that the games are DIFFERENT.
that is all,
Cameron
inr...@my-deja.com
>
> Her CCG stats are obviously based on her WoD stats.
>
yeah, but i recall that if you took her WoD stats she comes out as like
a 13 capacity vampire, a bit big for the Card game. James seems to be
saying that whoever Lucita is in the Card game, her situation will
'ultimatly' be based on the card game, not V:tM.
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
>
> I am still curious to know more about many of the vampires in this
> game, e.g. Queen Anne, Prince of London. The cards tell you little.
> What is a good source for this information? Are the Players' Guide(s)
> for this game worth getting?
The Kindred's Most Wanted has a good selection of Vampires that are
either refered to or are directly printed in V:TES. Namely they are
Dylan, Kemitiri, and Endiku. Check it out.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
tetragr...@my-deja.com
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is
> > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax
>
> Lucita is not antitribu.
> There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
> She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla).
Just for canon, any Lasombra not in the Sabbat should be considered
antitribu in game terms,
Camarilla or independent should make no difference.
Regards
Emiliano, Prince of Rome
>
> > seal/compass star. Following the example the "L" on a bloodseal
> > should translate as a crown without the blood seal. The compass
> > star that denotes antitribu status on all antitribu clans should
> > translate as a bloodseal in V:TES.
>
> Alright - you have apparently more background on this than I.
>
> But, to avoid confusing the reader who is interested in the
> ramifications for this game:
>
> The wax seal in this game is part of the clan symbol, and is
> part of the clan symbols for all clans that are part of the
> Sabbat - including Pander, Lasombra, and Tzimisce (which are
> not antitribu).
>
> The wax seal as part of a clan symbol "should translate" to the
> clan's membership in the Sabbat, in my opinion. Your mileage
> may vary. Reglardless of that opinion, however, Lucita remains a
> Lasombra (and can play cards that require Lasombra).
>
> --
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
>
Andrew S. Davidson
>Look, in the WoD at least 3 groups control the financial markets, the
>Giovanni, Pentex, and those annoying mages who i cant remember. It
>depends on what facet of the game you are currently playing.
Judging from the latest VtM rulebook, the backstory is advancing - the
Camarilla is in decline, the Kindred of the East are pushing the
Anarchs out of California, the NSA is getting wise to the Kindred, and
so on. No doubt control of the markets is fiercely contested and
changes hands from time to time.
In other CCG, like Doomtown, the game changes in parallel with such
developments - the fear level goes up and down, outfits appear and
disappear, dudes die or rise from the dead. The storyline concept is
a strong one and VTES would do well to copy it.
Andrew
Andrew S. Davidson
>Look, do you understand that the card game CANNOT be a perfect
>representation on the role-playing game? Hence, Lucita (the card) is an
>imperfect representation of Lucita (the RPG character). If people have
>problems with this, one easy explanation is to tell them that the
>Lucita's simply represent different people.
I don't know much about WoD but I know better than that. Lucita is
clearly a VIP in WoD - I notice that she keeps appearing in the cut
scenes in the RPG rulebook.
>The card Lucita is a Lasombra (not a Lasombra antitribu) because
>Lasombra antitribu do not exist in the card game.
Lasombra antitribu certainly exist in WoD. It would have been cool if
she had been the harbinger of this clan for the CCG.
Andrew
LSJ
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> > X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
> > > Actually, the wax seal should be used for her as she is
> > > antitribu, but the rest of the Lasombra should not have the wax
> >
> > Lucita is not antitribu.
> > There is no "Lasombra Antitribu" in the card game.
> > She is Lasombra, and she is Independent (Non-Sabbat, Non-Camarilla).
>
> Just for canon, any Lasombra not in the Sabbat should be considered
> antitribu in game terms,
> Camarilla or independent should make no difference.
In the RPG, right.
In the CCG, however, "X antitribu" denotes a distinct clan (with no
ties to the "base" clan X). A vampire in the CCG cannot change his antitribu
status just by changing sect (unlike the RPG).
Making Lucita a member of the "Lasombra antitribu" clan in the CCG (a new clan
in the CCG - one that has no supporting cards like Hunting Grounds in the CCG
and one that is not subject to any clan hosers like Detection in the CCG) would
accomplish nothing over the offial Lucita (Independent Lasombra), except to
restrict her interaction with the rest of the game.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
inr...@my-deja.com
> In other CCG, like Doomtown, the game changes in parallel with such
> developments - the fear level goes up and down, outfits appear and
> disappear, dudes die or rise from the dead. The storyline concept is
> a strong one and VTES would do well to copy it.
First "do well to copy it" except that then we'd have two games like
Doomtown, not Doomtown and Vampire. Ok, so you meant copy the
adhearance to 'a' storyline, i know. But honestly, that is why magic is
such a CF/crack habit. If the story line makes the Camarilla
impossiable to play (because they're dead) what good are all my
Camarilla vampires, in 'game' terms.
Further, as the 'fear level' rises and falls you get under and over
powered expansions. Again, like M:tCH and again bad (Fallen Empires
anyone?)
Ultimately (IMHO), the story line is great, as long as it doesn't get in
the way of playability. I was a V:tM before V:tES, and i still play it.
But, there is no point to making one just like the other. Someone has
already said, if V:tES is just like a RPG, only RPGer's will play. That
isn't economical, and is really just silly nitpickyness on the part of
those of us who have trouble accepting that the WoD is not a card game,
and shouldn't be expected to transfer over 'as an exact match'.
my $.02
Cameron
R. David Zopf
Andrew S. Davidson wrote in message
<963DFE1C2426A359.1A8F7E75...@lp.airnews.net>...
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:41:06 GMT, Richard D. Zopf wrote:
>
>>it would absolutely kill any crossover appeal of the games
>
>There are two sorts of cross-over. You're talking about getting
>computer gamers to try WoD by offering them the sort of dumb,
>hack'n'slash that they're used to. Most reviewers seem to have panned
>this as a stupid bait-and-switch tactic. Anyway, I'm more concerned
>with the cross-over between supposedly complementary WoD media types.
>
I understand you concern... My concern is that by pandering solely to
people looking for lock-step cross-over, the appeal of the game will be
restricted... and by extension the potential market for it reduced. With a
CCG, this is much more likely to kill the game dead.
>I was eyeing the WoD merchandise in my games shop the other day.
>Eventually I bought a copy of the VtM RPG (and two boxes of VTES
>cards). I was tempted to buy one of the novels but didn't have a
>reason to buy a particular one. I'm mildly interested in the Lucita
>one now but am not encouraged by LSJ's bizarre insistence that the CCG
>Lucita is a different character - any resemblance is purely
>coincidental. Such repudiation of the common background will not help
>the sales of WW products in general.
>
The RPG, as I understand it, labels Lasombra vampires that have crossed over
to the Camarilla as antitribu (correct me if this is inaccurate). From
reading the Clan Novel, Lucita is in no way portrayed as having anything to
do with _either_ political sect. Since such a clanless vampire woudl be
Caitiff or some such other, the RPG stats show her as Lasombra Antitribu.
In truth, she doesn't truly have the Camarilla ties to be called antitribu,
but that's the best (most accurate) label the tabletop has to offer. In
VTES, she can be a Lasombra vampire without ties to a political sect. This
results in a more accurate representation of the fictional character from
the novel than what the RPG boys came up with...
Regards,
R. David Zopf
Atom Weaver
V:EKN Prince of Charlotte, NC
Tadeusz
> results in a more accurate representation of the fictional character from
> the novel than what the RPG boys came up with...
Small nit-picking if you don't mind: Lucita is a RPG figure who appears
heavily often in VtM and VtDA material, and who was recently cast in
CN:Lasombra. Some writers of the novels are part of the WWGS team, and
CN:Giovanni was even written by the Vampire:tM developer.
Tadeusz
R. David Zopf
Tadeusz <"tadeusz.no spam.please"@webmails.com> > wrote in message
<398B08D3...@webmails.com>...
instead of the Clan Novel, you're bound to arrive at different conclusions
about the CCG's accruacy in representing Lucita... The only real answer is
that the VTES Lucita is 100% accurate in representing her in VTES ;-) But
would you not agree that any vampire put into a similar role in another
novel would be most accurately portrayed as "Independent" rather than
"Camarilla" or "Sabbat"? The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character
more accurately than the RPG version... So what? It's all still the WoD.
You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is more
accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all rights
reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats are
just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those RPG
details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and _booooring_
;-)
Tadeusz
>
> This goes further towards supporting my point. If you start from the RPG
> instead of the Clan Novel, you're bound to arrive at different conclusions
> about the CCG's accruacy in representing Lucita... The only real answer is
> that the VTES Lucita is 100% accurate in representing her in VTES ;-) But
I wasn't going against your point. It's fairly obvious to me that
VtM/VtES compatibility is no priority (dump the Ravnos and !Tremere?
gimme a break). I think it is very sad that François Villon has
Chimerstry, just because his VtM stats did. But I feel somewhat
different when it comes to Clan or Sect affiliation. If Keminitiri had
been Ventrue Justicar, it would have been laughable for those who know
her VtM persona (She actually impersonated the Ventrue Justicar for
years). Thus, I think that Lucita wasn't the best choice, since her
ambiguous loylties (Clan/Sect-wise) don't fit in well with the
established Clan/Sect mechanismof VtES.
Oh, and I hate Lucita anyway :) Overmarketting a sexy bitch does wear
thin after a while.
> would you not agree that any vampire put into a similar role in another
> novel would be most accurately portrayed as "Independent" rather than
> "Camarilla" or "Sabbat"?
Haven't read the novels. Isn't Vykos a counter-example?
> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character
> more accurately than the RPG version...
??
> So what? It's all still the WoD.
> You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is more
> accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all rights
> reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats are
> just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those RPG
> details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and _booooring_
> ;-)
Well, as a RPGamer I don't usually think of characters as intellectual
property, so that distinction doesn't mean much to me. But IMHO things
as basic as Clan and Sect affiliations shouldn't be messed with when
crossing over to fiction or CCG.
Tadeusz
R. David Zopf
Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>...
>> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character
>> more accurately than the RPG version...
>
> ??
>
My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather
than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's
political situation...
>> So what? It's all still the WoD.
>> You call Lucita (above) an RPG figure cast in CN:Lasombra. Lucita is
more
>> accurately the intellectual property of White Wolf (copyrighted, all
rights
>> reserved, etc.), and they can do with it as they see fit. The RPG stats
are
>> just her first incarnation as intellectual property. To cling to those
RPG
>> details for every media used or game printed would be folly (and
_booooring_
>> ;-)
>
> Well, as a RPGamer I don't usually think of characters as intellectual
>property, so that distinction doesn't mean much to me. But IMHO things
>as basic as Clan and Sect affiliations shouldn't be messed with when
>crossing over to fiction or CCG.
>
IMHO, White Wolf should do as they see fit with their intellectual property,
to make each product stand on its own as interesting and entertaining (and,
for games, playable) in its own right. Stick with translating the game from
the VTM rulebook, and all you'll ever attract is VTM players...
Tadeusz
>
> Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>...
>
> >> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character
> >> more accurately than the RPG version...
> >
> > ??
> >
> My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather
> than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's
> political situation...
AFAIK there is no/little difference between the RPG and the novel as
far as Lucita's political situation is concerned. On the other hand,
VtES lists her as a Lasombra, whereas she is technically a !Lasombra
(http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/Sig%20Characters/Lucita).
I don't think it is sooo very horrible, but it does create an
inconsistency: why can't Beast use patagia flaps, if Lucita can use
Elysean Fields?
On the other hand, Keminitri is allowed normal Setite cards, whereas
she is on the run from Set himself.
Why bother? No brain, no pain.
Tadeusz
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
> Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of
> directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni.
You are incorrect. Please refer to the Clanbook: Giovanni where they
list prominant members. Enzo Giovanni is a low ranking Giovanni who is
being used as a red herring to draw out enemies to the clan.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
Richard D. Zopf
>R. David Zopf wrote:
>>
>> Tadeusz wrote in message <398B1A5C...@webmails.com>...
>>
>> >> The CCG describes Lucita's fictional character
>> >> more accurately than the RPG version...
>> >
>> > ??
>> >
>> My point was, if you start from the novel's description of Lucita, rather
>> than the RPG, then VTES does a better job of describing the character's
>> political situation...
> AFAIK there is no/little difference between the RPG and the novel as
>far as Lucita's political situation is concerned. On the other hand,
>VtES lists her as a Lasombra, whereas she is technically a !Lasombra
>(http://www.white-wolf.com/Games/Pages/Sig%20Characters/Lucita).
Okay, bear with me here... Isn't a Lasombra antitribu a Lasombra that
is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla?
Regards,
R. David Zopf
guenh...@mindspring.com
Tadeusz
> is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla?
AFAIK no. In the main RPG book, it is stated that the non-tzim,
no-lasombra clans of the Sabbat style themselves antitribu , meaning
'anti-clans'. Then elsewhere there is a 2-pages description of the
Lasombra antitribu of the Camarilla (with no symbol whatsoever btw).
Antitribu probably means 'as opposed to the main/traditional body of the
Clan'. This is supported with Lucita's online description (which is a
bit old btw, perhaps predating VtM's revised edition).
I'd also like to add that the RPG's way of changing the Clan symbols
for Sabbat antitribu is to put an additional picture in the background
(you knew that) and that the picture is the ouline of the lower part of
the Sabbat logo (an inverted spiked ankh).
Tadeusz
R. David Zopf
Tadeusz wrote in message <398DF753...@webmails.com>...
>> Okay, bear with me here... Isn't a Lasombra antitribu a Lasombra that
>> is a part of or in some way supports the Camarilla?
>
> AFAIK no. In the main RPG book, it is stated that the non-tzim,
>no-lasombra clans of the Sabbat style themselves antitribu , meaning
>'anti-clans'. Then elsewhere there is a 2-pages description of the
>Lasombra antitribu of the Camarilla (with no symbol whatsoever btw).
>Antitribu probably means 'as opposed to the main/traditional body of the
>Clan'. This is supported with Lucita's online description (which is a
>bit old btw, perhaps predating VtM's revised edition).
>
regarding the details of accuracy. So, an Las-anti can be independant or
Camarilla, as it sees fit... Good enough. I still think it's a bad idea to
have a clan of one vampire in the CCG, though :-) Its tough enough with
only 10 Assamites and Setites, you know... Calling her an Independant
Lasombra is more than adequate for VTES.
Regards,
R. David Zopf
inr...@my-deja.com
X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote:
>
>
> > Oh, and in the book of Wyrm, no vampire in on the Pentex board of
> > directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni.
>
> You are incorrect. Please refer to the Clanbook: Giovanni where they
> list prominant members. Enzo Giovanni is a low ranking Giovanni who
is
> being used as a red herring to draw out enemies to the clan.
Sorry, don't have that one, but that just heightens the inconsistnecies
in the WoD, which makes the RPG fun, but why the card game shouldn't be
an exact crossover.
Cameron
Halcyan 2
>directors, so already we aren't consistent... Enzo Giovanni.
That's because Enzo's dead (as in he's had Final Death). There's a blurb about
it in that Pentex book (I personally don't have it).
On a sidenote, I recall hearing something about a Malkavian Anti being on the
board? Oh well. Whatever.
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>a 13 capacity vampire, a bit big for the Card game. James seems to be
>saying that whoever Lucita is in the Card game, her situation will
>'ultimatly' be based on the card game, not V:tM.
No, she wouldn't be a 13th capacity vampire. You can roughly *estimate* by
taking the "RPG generation" number and subtracating that from 15. Etrius for
example is a 4th gen and he is among the highest capacity of vampires (at 11).
I'll have to re-check, but I think that this corresponds nicely for most of the
vampires that are "apparantly" from the canon storyline.
On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the Sabbat vampire
Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti named
Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List book?). I don't
have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name floating
around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low...
Halcyan 2
Tadeusz
> Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti named
> Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List book?).
Yes. The portraits are very close. But I didn't remember him being
!Ventrue, rather !Tremere. I may be mistaken, and I don't own the book
any more.
>I don't
> have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name floating
> around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low...
I think he was just a weakling who diablerized the wrong guy in London.
Tadeusz
Noal McDonald
>> On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the
>> Sabbat vampire Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble"
>> some other Ventrue Anti named Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted
>> Book (or was it the Red List book?).
>
> Yes. The portraits are very close. But I didn't remember him being
> !Ventrue, rather !Tremere. I may be mistaken, and I don't own the
> book any more.
I do happen to own the book. Dylan is a !Ventrue and is the same vampire
featured in VTES. The haircut is even the same. However, the disciplines
don't match in the slightest. Another vampire from that book that's also
in VTES is Kemintiri.
Regards,
Noal
--
"I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from
what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species,
of pure sons of bitches."
--Faulkner, "The Mansion"
X_Ze...@email.msn.com
> On a quick sidenote, but are there any thoughts on whether the Sabbat
vampire
> Dylan (Ventrue Anti) is supposed to "resemble" some other Ventrue Anti
named
> Dylan in the Kindred's Most Wanted Book (or was it the Red List
book?). I don't
> have either but I know there was some Ventrue Anti with the same name
floating
> around...and if there was, a "6 capacity" seemed sort of low...
I believe they are one in the same. Even the picture on the card is
identical to the anathema Dylan.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown Jr.
X_Zealot
Archon of the Swamp
mik...@a_van_a.net
one more.
Andrew S. Davidson
>Her card does not display that symbol - it merely displays the
>standard Lasombra symbol (below) on the Sabbat wax seal (not in the
>"compass star" that the Lasombra antitribu symbol has).
>
>Technically, I suppose, the Sabbat wax seal should not be used
>since she is not Sabbat, but, for the card game, the clan symbol
>includes both the crown and the wax seal.
Not any more. The VTES symbols no longer feature a wax seal and the
antitribu clans have a compass rose. My girlfriend was quite keen on
the new legend card and I asked her what she made of the inconsistency
between it and the vampire cards. Her deduction was that you look at
the colour of the clan symbol and ignore the background. If it's
black then it's the main clan. If it's white then it's antitribu.
Andrew
jeff_kuta
Back to Embrace, Progeny, Rites:
According to card text, clan (and by default sect) are tied to the
clan's status at the time the new kindred comes into play, for purposes
of the new wordings of the Indie clan votes.
It still strikes me as *very* odd that Gangrel Princes and Justicars
create Progeny that aren't Camarilla. By default they'd be Independent
now right?
I certainly would love to see "and sect" be added to all these cards so
that things would be consistent for those trying to make Group 1/2
Gangrel decks (and perhaps Black Hand Assamite only decks, with
Embraces!) *GRIN*
Jeff
Halcyan 2
>clan's status at the time the new kindred comes into play, for purposes
>of the new wordings of the Indie clan votes.
Since the new Independent Acceptance votes seem to do a pretty good job, how
about a similar one for the Gangrel? Have a political card allowing the Gangrel
to rejoin the Camarilla. (That way, the pre-Anarchs Gangrel decks can retain
their old Camarilla flavor).
Halcyan 2
Screaming Vermillian
card. Like I need a hole in my head...
jeff_kuta
Or you could issue a very minor (and intuitive, IMO) errata to these
cards inserting "and sect" in after "clan." :P
Might be an elegant way just errata The Embrace and adjust the "new
vamp comes into play rule" since Third Tradition and Creation Rites
imply Camarilla and Sabbat respectively.
If you want Indie Gangrel, you got 'em. If you want Camarilla Gangrel,
you got 'em. If you want any assortment of odd-ball Clan/Sect
affiliations via Embrace, you got 'em, provided you can find the proper
sire or make them as such via Out of the Frying Pan or Into the Fire.
(How's that for a rhyme?)
I'm envisioning a Gangrel P/J breed deck with some Judgement: Camarilla
Segregation for table pressure/annoyance. The Gangrel Princes and
Justicars shouldn't be forced to hose themselves if they also want to
make Third Tradition: Progeny!
Jeff
emmits...@hotmail.com
> It still strikes me as *very* odd that Gangrel Princes and Justicars
> create Progeny that aren't Camarilla. By default they'd be
Independent
> now right?
>
> I certainly would love to see "and sect" be added to all these cards
so
> that things would be consistent for those trying to make Group 1/2
> Gangrel decks (and perhaps Black Hand Assamite only decks, with
> Embraces!) *GRIN*
It would force me to rethink my Giangalleazo + Marcus Vitel decks,
however. Making Sabbat Lasombra 3rd Traditions is a bonus in those
decks.