Open letter to White Wolf
ben...@gmail.com
To whom it may concern,
Do you think you could put mentions of the Lords of the Night
preview page on the main White Wolf website page and the main V:TES
website page? Do you think you could send a message to the Princes
forum about how one runs a release event? 3 weeks to go...
- Ben Peal, US National Coordinator
Blooded Sand
Hear hear. Try to explain to someone who wants to find out about the
game (ie new blood) how to find the pre release, without any links
under upcoming releases.
Tetragrammaton
I second this.
Seems like WW doesn't care too much about the advertising
aspect these days.
Why ?
best
Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome
atomweaver
@tornado.fastwebnet.it:
Have you seen this month's cover of Game Trade? (not that this excuses lazy
ad policy on the web page...)
DZ
AW
Robert Goudie
> "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote in news:aMuDi.6470$Th1.203
> @tornado.fastwebnet.it:
>
> >> To whom it may concern,
>
> >> Do you think you could put mentions of the Lords of the Night
> >> preview page on the main White Wolf website page and the main V:TES
> >> website page? Do you think you could send a message to the Princes
> >> forum about how one runs a release event? 3 weeks to go...
>
> >> - Ben Peal, US National Coordinator
>
> > I second this.
> > Seems like WW doesn't care too much about the advertising
> > aspect these days.
>
> Have you seen this month's cover of Game Trade? (not that this excuses lazy
> ad policy on the web page...)
Right. No excuse.
But as always, there isn't some conspiracy. Not a sign of slashed
V:TES budgets, the demise of the game, and so on. There's probably
just too few people juggling too many tasks. Doesn't seem altogether
different from the Fortune 500 companies I've worked for.
It's either that or Oscar is just hung over. :-)
-Robert
Screaming Vermillian
When will gaming companies quit making it a policy to hire drunks?
ben...@gmail.com
> Dave Zopf wrote:
> > Have you seen this month's cover of Game Trade? (not that this excuses lazy
> > ad policy on the web page...)
>
> Right. No excuse.
>
> But as always, there isn't some conspiracy. Not a sign of slashed
> V:TES budgets, the demise of the game, and so on. There's probably
> just too few people juggling too many tasks. Doesn't seem altogether
> different from the Fortune 500 companies I've worked for.
>
> It's either that or Oscar is just hung over. :-)
I mean no offense, Robert, but spare us the apologist crap. It is
White Wolf's responsibility to advertise their own product. They put
up information about Changeling and the new EVE expansion on the front
page of the White Wolf site, so why can't they do that for Lords of
the Night? The expansion advertised at the top of the V:TES main page
is Sword of Caine. How hard is it to change that to a picture of
Lords of the Night and link it to the prevew page? I hear that
there's something called the North American Championships happening in
LA in two weeks. However, you wouldn't know it by looking at the main
page of the White Wolf website or the main page of the V:TES website -
oh, wait, there's a tiny link about it at the very bottom of the V:TES
page dated 9/27/2006. I hear that Frankie Vasadi won the EC in
Sweden, but there's no mention of that, either.
Green Ronin is publishing a book called Hobby Games: The 100 Best,
with luminaries of the gaming industry writing articles on each game.
Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is one of the 100 best. If it's that
good, why doesn't White Wolf see fit to advertise it better on their
website? Info about the book can be found here: http://www.greenronin.com/store/grr4001
It's awesome that White Wolf paid to have Lords of the Night on the
front cover of Game Trade, along with a two-page article about it.
They still need to back it up with a stronger website presence. At
this rate, they should just redirect www.white-wolf.com/vtes to
www.thelasombra.com. Jeff keeps his information up to date because
he's passionate about the game and because he runs a business selling
V:TES. I repeat: a business selling V:TES.
- Ben
Robert Goudie
wrote:
It's a chicken and egg thing. Drunks are probably doing the hiring.
-Robert
Orpheus
>
> When will gaming companies quit making it a policy to hire drunks?
I, burps, beg to differ, hips. I'm a, you know, well, a, new employee of
White Dog, err, Black Wolf, whatever, that hips company you know, and I quit
drinking as of the night, err, day I became employhips, so I... where was I
?
Anyway, you know, I don't drink these days. Not so much anyway.
What ? Site update ? Yeah, sure, and I'll think of those Quietburps cards
too. Or whatever.
---------
Anonymous new White Walrus drunk... err, employee.
Robert Goudie
Agree with everything you said.
-Robert
Jeroen
It does make people wonder about the importance WW gives to V:TES. It
seems that on the WW priority list it's way down. I hope that's only
perception.
Johannes Walch
> I hear that Frankie Vasadi won the EC in
> Sweden, but there's no mention of that, either.
I have prepared all the content for a web story on the EC 2007 along
with pictures, reports, inside-views on the finals and so on (with the
help of many contributors)
Text and pictures are ready, but until now I didn´t get any serious
reply/help from WW to help me put it into shape and place. As far as I
can see it they should be grabbing the stuff from me and be very eager
to make something out of it.
Will I ever make such an effort again? Go figure.
--
Johannes Walch
Damnans
> benp...@gmail.com schrieb:
Yeah, there are other important VTES matters they are not taking care
of.
They may be snowed under with work, but that's no excuse for WW be
informal or unreliable.
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
Blooded Sand
To be frank, with the exception of certain notable figures, I don't
get the feeling that WW gives a rat's ass for VtES.No links to the
previews (a hyperlink, they seriously want me to believe they are too
busy to make a f%$king hyperlink?), EC given almost no coverage on the
"official" website, the list goes on....
Frankly I feel that if they actually want something to happen with
VtES they should outsource all website functionality, and maybe even
marketing to someone in the community who actually IS passionate about
this game, and see what they can do with it. The blase apathetical
treatment we are getting sucks.
Jeff Kuta
> The blase apathetical treatment we are getting sucks.
Makes me wonder whether EVE really wants to continue investing in VTES
in the long term. Should I bother spending money on a dying game?
There, I said it. Now get your act together WW!!
Jeff
ben...@gmail.com
> To be frank, with the exception of certain notable figures, I don't
> get the feeling that WW gives a rat's ass for VtES.No links to the
> previews (a hyperlink, they seriously want me to believe they are too
> busy to make a f%$king hyperlink?), EC given almost no coverage on the
> "official" website, the list goes on....
>
> Frankly I feel that if they actually want something to happen with
> VtES they should outsource all website functionality, and maybe even
> marketing to someone in the community who actually IS passionate about
> this game, and see what they can do with it. The blase apathetical
> treatment we are getting sucks.
Ultimately, I think the best thing is for White Wolf to be properly
managing it instead of relying on volunteer help or outsourcing. Why
aren't they giving it better treatment? I think the answer is that
V:TES is not part of WW/CCP's company and brand focus, and as such, WW/
CCP doesn't know what to do with it and it isn't at the forefront of
their attenion. Heavily promoting V:TES means promoting the old World
of Darkness, which conflicts with the brand focus of the new World of
Darkness. If they start putting images of Theo Bell or Fatima or
Lucita on the WW main page, it could create confusion amongst their
customers. Hmm...this didn't stop them from buying the front cover of
Game Trade and putting old WoD brand stuff all over it...At any rate,
V:TES isn't what WW/CCP is about. They're about EVE, they're about
new WoD, they're about Exalted, Scion, etc. They keep making V:TES
because it makes a good enough profit to justify its existence, but
promoting that brand runs counter to what they're trying to promote
overall as a company.
It seems to me that if we want WW/CCP to get fully behind V:TES,
with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
Thoughts?
- Ben Peal
Jeroen
> It seems to me that if we want WW/CCP to get fully behind V:TES,
> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
> V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
> out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
> any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
> that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
> the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
>
> Thoughts?
I think I made the same assesment as you did a while ago. But I think
I posted that it would be best to make it a compatible new game(*). It
would be easier to market and easier to get NWOD players to check it
out. Well, at least the NWOD players that aren't old OWOD players.
(*) meaning that yes, you can play your old decks against new decks.
But they would remain different games. (no cross using cards.(**))
This would mean V:TES could remain in existence (albeit with slower
expansion, probably) and Vampire: the eternal requiming could build up
from scratch.
(**) I know this is not a popular suggestion :-)
Damnans
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > To be frank, with the exception of certain notable figures, I don't
> > get the feeling that WW gives a rat's ass for VtES.No links to the
> > previews (a hyperlink, they seriously want me to believe they are too
> > busy to make a f%$king hyperlink?), EC given almost no coverage on the
> > "official" website, the list goes on....
>
> > Frankly I feel that if they actually want something to happen with
> > VtES they should outsource all website functionality, and maybe even
> > marketing to someone in the community who actually IS passionate about
> > this game, and see what they can do with it. The blase apathetical
> > treatment we are getting sucks.
>
>
> It seems to me that if we want WW/CCP to get fully behind V:TES,
> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
> V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
> out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
> any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
> that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
> the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
>
> Thoughts?
I think VTES should stick to the old World of Darkness, and that White
Wolf/CCP should go back to the old World of Darkness. The old WoD is
more attractive than the new one.
The problems with VTES promotion and management existed before the new
World of Darkness came to be, so in my opinion they have little to do
with what you mention.
XZealot
> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
> V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
> out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
> any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
> that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
> the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> - Ben Peal
Everything you said is true.
Here are some of my ideas.
Launch the new clans with their new disciplines.
Disciplines are different but the symbols could remain the same. This
allows the use of the old cards with the vampires. For example, I
think that Vigor in the NwoD serves approximatesly the same function
as Potence in the oWoD. So they could both be represented by the fist
symbol. You would use the same symbology but change the definition of
the symbols. This allows a smooth transition without invalidating any
of the decks or cards, while allowing access to new source material to
base new cards on.
Make the vampires group 6
Are there sects in the nWoD? Are there titles? How would the
political element be covered?
My 2 cents....
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Screaming Vermillian
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > To be frank, with the exception of certain notable figures, I don't
> > get the feeling that WW gives a rat's ass for VtES.No links to the
> > previews (a hyperlink, they seriously want me to believe they are too
> > busy to make a f%$king hyperlink?), EC given almost no coverage on the
> > "official" website, the list goes on....
>
>
> Thoughts?
I was afraid of something like the former for quite some time, and
I've been clamouring (well I clamoured) for the latter since I bought
V:tR a few months after it came out!
ben...@gmail.com
> I think VTES should stick to the old World of Darkness, and that White
> Wolf/CCP should go back to the old World of Darkness. The old WoD is
> more attractive than the new one.
Good luck convincing WW/CCP to go back to the old World of Darkness.
> The problems with VTES promotion and management existed before the new
> World of Darkness came to be, so in my opinion they have little to do
> with what you mention.
At one point with White Wolf, we got a new ratings system, a new
website that was much better than the old website, we got National
Coordinators put into place, and a director of product development who
was very active with communicating with the player base - and who
acted on our suggestions. Things were actually pretty good. Right
now, the only White Wolf internal guy we can talk to is an overworked
Organized Play Coordinator who's been getting dragged into a million
different directions ever since White Wolf and CCP merged. I'm
willing to bet that Oscar is being told by WW/CCP to focus his
marketing efforts on their core brands.
Another question: Who is the Director/Manager of Product
Development for V:TES?
- Ben Peal
Clément
> I think VTES should stick to the old World of Darkness, and that White
> Wolf/CCP should go back to the old World of Darkness. The old WoD is
> more attractive than the new one.
Well, except that it's not.
The "new" World of Darkness is an improvement over the old one in
pretty much every sense.
Although I enjoyed the old characters, the old background, and the old
stories, there's no coming back (unless I have too much spare time to
invest in an nostalgic oWoD chronicle, which is highly unlikely).
Abraço,
Luiz Mello
ben...@gmail.com
> Right now, the only White Wolf internal guy we can talk to is an
> overworked Organized Play Coordinator who's been getting dragged
> into a million different directions ever since White Wolf and CCP
> merged. I'm willing to bet that Oscar is being told by WW/CCP to
> focus his marketing efforts on their core brands.
I just want to clarify that I don't mean this as a criticism of
Oscar, but rather as comments on a state of affairs that appears to be
out of Oscar's control. Despite how crazy things are over there (or
at least as I perceive them to be), Oscar has managed to triple the
budget for the NAC and EC for 2007 and beyond (I have no information
about the SAC or AC), and convinced WW/CCP that they should advertise
on the front cover of Game Trade. I think part of the frustration
we're feeling comes from the fact that Oscar is one of us, and as such
we're expecting that we should be getting a certain level of TLC from
someone who truly understands the V:TES community. At the risk of
spewing "apologist crap", it's my belief that what's going on right
now isn't Oscar's fault. I'm of the opinion right now that if we
bring WoD 2.0 into V:TES, that may change WW/CCP's attitude about
V:TES and have them steer Oscar back towards helping out V:TES.
- Ben
Jeroen Rombouts
"XZealot" <xze...@cox.net> schreef in bericht
news:1189093043....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> It seems to me that if we want WW/CCP to get fully behind V:TES,
>> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
>> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
>> V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
>> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
>> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
>> out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
>> any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
>> that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
>> the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> - Ben Peal
>
> Everything you said is true.
> Here are some of my ideas.
>
> Launch the new clans with their new disciplines.
>
> Disciplines are different but the symbols could remain the same. This
> allows the use of the old cards with the vampires. For example, I
> think that Vigor in the NwoD serves approximatesly the same function
> as Potence in the oWoD. So they could both be represented by the fist
> symbol. You would use the same symbology but change the definition of
> the symbols. This allows a smooth transition without invalidating any
> of the decks or cards, while allowing access to new source material to
> base new cards on.
>
> Make the vampires group 6
That would be a very elegant solution, actually (except maybe for Majesty
the discipline and Majesty the card, but hey.... And Nightmare is new, so it
would lag behind.)
Only problem here is of course: the backs of the cards. You could keep the
tri-snake, but V:TES is on there too.
>
> Are there sects in the nWoD?
5 (at leatst) Covenants that are basically the same as the OWOD sekts.
>Are there titles?
Yes, but they differ between cities and covenants.
>How would the
> political element be covered?
Same as now. But with more variety between title names.
XZealot
wrote:
> "XZealot" <xzea...@cox.net> schreef in berichtnews:1189093043....@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
I thought Nightmare roughly correlated to Dementation.
> Only problem here is of course: the backs of the cards. You could keep the
> tri-snake, but V:TES is on there too.
Why would you have to change the name of the game Vampire: The
Eternal Struggle is neither Vampire: The Masquerade nor Vampire: The
Redemption. It is its own game that draws influences from both
sources.
> > Are there sects in the nWoD?
>
> 5 (at leatst) Covenants that are basically the same as the OWOD sekts.
Neat
> >Are there titles?
>
> Yes, but they differ between cities and covenants.
Cool
> >How would the
> > political element be covered?
>
> Same as now. But with more variety between title names.
More is better!
Jeff Kuta
Instead of putting the WoD 2.0 crypt cards in the same grouping
alignment as the standard VTES, why not use a grouping system of
A,B,C, or alpha, beta, gamma...and keep them on separate tracks? So if
you're using a crypt with an A/B/C group selection, you can't mix
with the 1/2/3/4/5 groups. Library cards could be freely intermingled
because the disciplines are similar (right?) as are clan specific
cards (your Ecoterrorists will still work for Gangrel 1.0 and Gangrel
2.0).
This could be a pretty slick solution to a sticky problem.
Jeff
Blooded Sand
Oscar. (Or Scott :)
I was more making a direct attack on what i see to be somewhat blase
corporate management, where they have a product that has the potential
to be huge, but is not getting the true support it desires. I am
trying very hard not to start commenting on CCP attitudes, because
that is going to lead to talking about EVE, and anyone who was here a
few months ago knows exactly what pit of unethical crap that leads to.
I truly believe in responsible corporate governance, but having a
product that has had near fanatical support for 13 years get neglected
due to a seeming lack of care, is enough to make my blood boil.
I sometimes wish i could win the UK or Florida or euro lotto or
something like that, so i could buy the franchise from WW and run it
the way it should be run...
XZealot
Why wouldn't the numeric system we currently use suffice? Why
wouldn't you be able to mix characters from different games? Wouldn't
that be fun to have Theo Bell marching beside Prince Stuffy Pants of
NWoD Chicago? Why do they have to be incompatable?
XZealot
You might not have enough money even with that influx.
Matthew T. Morgan
> Why wouldn't the numeric system we currently use suffice? Why
> wouldn't you be able to mix characters from different games? Wouldn't
> that be fun to have Theo Bell marching beside Prince Stuffy Pants of
> NWoD Chicago? Why do they have to be incompatable?
Yeah, it wouldn't bother me at all to mix the two worlds. There are
enough silly things in vtes already that it shouldn't cause any real
problems.
Matt Morgan
Damnans
> Gines wrote:
[...]
>
> > The problems with VTES promotion and management existed before the new
> > World of Darkness came to be, so in my opinion they have little to do
> > with what you mention.
>
> At one point with White Wolf, we got a new ratings system, a new
> website that was much better than the old website, we got National
> Coordinators put into place, and a director of product development who
> was very active with communicating with the player base - and who
> acted on our suggestions. Things were actually pretty good.
But I was referring to the White Wolf times before 2003.
Damnans
> Ben Peal skrev:
>
> > Right now, the only White Wolf internal guy we can talk to is an
> > overworked Organized Play Coordinator who's been getting dragged
> > into a million different directions ever since White Wolf and CCP
> > merged. I'm willing to bet that Oscar is being told by WW/CCP to
> > focus his marketing efforts on their core brands.
>
> I just want to clarify that I don't mean this as a criticism of
> Oscar, but rather as comments on a state of affairs that appears to be
> out of Oscar's control.
Amen.
[...]
> I'm of the opinion right now that if we
> bring WoD 2.0 into V:TES, that may change WW/CCP's attitude about
> V:TES and have them steer Oscar back towards helping out V:TES.
As I have already told you on IRC, I do not believe that VTES will get
proper support from CCP/WW regardless of whether it's old WoD or new
WoD. So I do not see the need to add new WoD stuff to VTES.
Damnans
Mixing the Star Wars world with VTES wouldn't bother you either, as
you told me on IRC ;-)
Tetragrammaton
> Blooded Sand wrote:
>> To be frank, with the exception of certain notable figures, I don't
>> get the feeling that WW gives a rat's ass for VtES.No links to the
>> previews (a hyperlink, they seriously want me to believe they are too
>> busy to make a f%$king hyperlink?), EC given almost no coverage on
>> the "official" website, the list goes on....
>>
>> Frankly I feel that if they actually want something to happen with
>> VtES they should outsource all website functionality, and maybe even
>> marketing to someone in the community who actually IS passionate
>> about this game, and see what they can do with it. The blase
>> apathetical treatment we are getting sucks.
>
> Ultimately, I think the best thing is for White Wolf to be properly
> managing it instead of relying on volunteer help or outsourcing. Why
> aren't they giving it better treatment? I think the answer is that
> V:TES is not part of WW/CCP's company and brand focus, and as such,
> WW/ CCP doesn't know what to do with it and it isn't at the forefront
> of their attenion. Heavily promoting V:TES means promoting the old
> World of Darkness, which conflicts with the brand focus of the new
> World of Darkness.
Actually, i think that thrashing the old WoD 1.0 (in favor of the new
requiem
set up) was one of the biggest mistake the WW could made - instead of
cleaning up the
unnecessary plots for the WoD 1.0, they decided to wipe out it outright,
making also the VTES background to be obsolete in the long run.
I still hope that some enlight mind will take back the old WoD canon from
the grave, since
the requiem hasn't got so much success so far, and lots of playgroup still
roleplay with
the old good WoD rather than with the new one.
>
> That is, we need the new WoD in
> V:TES. I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I can
> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
> out the player base.
This can be somewhat done (and would be the most doable solution, imho) -
actually, i think it's just so hard to realize in front of the new WoD 2.0 ,
since
its basis it's completely alien to the old WoD.
Anyway, i agree with you
best
Emiliano, vekn Prince of Rome
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > At one point with White Wolf, we got a new ratings system, a new
> > website that was much better than the old website, we got National
> > Coordinators put into place, and a director of product development who
> > was very active with communicating with the player base - and who
> > acted on our suggestions. Things were actually pretty good.
>
> But I was referring to the White Wolf times before 2003.
Well you didn't _say_ that. :)
Besides, things were bad, and then after 2003 things were good, and
now things are bad again. The question right now is trying to figure
out how to get back to things being good. Right now, I see a merged
company that's concerned with its core brands and not old brands.
- Ben
Tetragrammaton
> The problems with VTES promotion and management existed before the new
> World of Darkness came to be, so in my opinion they have little to do
> with what you mention.
Indeed - anyway, they some good game developer could consider
to re-unite the two world of darkness, though that seems unlikely to be
realized.
Emiliano
Orpheus
>> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
>> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
>> V:TES.
First question : are you really sure that WW would focus more on the game if
that was the case ?
> I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
>> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game. I
> can
>> accept that - not allowing people to use their old cards would wipe
>> out the player base. I know it will mean that we will get few, if
>> any, future cards for the old WoD clans and disciplines. I can accept
>> that - so long as one or two more old WoD expansions after Lords of
>> the Night are made to give the old guard the cards they need.
>
>> Thoughts?
Yes.
- we would need to see the complement of G4 and 5 for all the clans in
existence before the "old WOD" was stopped, if ever
- it could also be an alternance : with Requiem vamps too in separate
expansions it would put much more time before going on to another group.
> I think I made the same assesment as you did a while ago. But I think
> I posted that it would be best to make it a compatible new game(*).
> (*) meaning that yes, you can play your old decks against new decks.
> But they would remain different games. (no cross using cards.(**))
> This would mean V:TES could remain in existence (albeit with slower
> expansion, probably) and Vampire: the eternal requiming could build up
> from scratch.
- Not a bad idea. Those who just want to play VTES can do so, idem for those
who play Requiem, and you can play one against the other - not both in the
same crypt / library, though. After all, stranger things happen in a world
full of magics and monsters...
- and if it is non-compatible, I know I have enough vamps and cards to
create and play decks until the end of my days, no matter if I buy any
Requiem CCG or not. Those who really want new cards will buy them.
> It would be easier to market and easier to get NWOD players to check it
> out. Well, at least the NWOD players that aren't old OWOD players.
- and those can adapt or just play with the old stuff
> (**) I know this is not a popular suggestion :-)
- is it not ?
--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.
Spectro
WW just sell it to other game studio (or something like that) while it
is worthy, and let real interested people run it the way it should be?
This could solve the problem.
Okay, just don't sell it back to WotC please !!!
Place your bids here ;)
Regards,
Spæctro
Ben Swainbank
>
> Another question: Who is the Director/Manager of Product
> Development for V:TES?
>
Yeah. That's the big question. And the fact that we don't know
suggests that there probably isn't one.
LSJ is still doing solid set design and there's an active player and
volunteer community. So, even on autopilot the game can go on...
But given the merger, overall company, IP, and brand directions, lack
of new set announcements, and lack of much in the way of offical
communication or obvious marketing effort (although the Game Trade
cover is interesting...) White Wolf does need to know that the natives
are restless.*
Really, they should decide what their plans are for the future of this
game. Then they should tell us what has been decided. Hopefully, it's
something we can get excited about.
Oscar (and WW friends), you are reading this aren't you? How about a
State of the Game address at the NAC?
-Ben Swainbank
* And we get a little squirrely when we haven't had new set for a few
months.
XZealot
Apparently, you think that is funny, but having lived through the Dark
Age of VTES when we had no support, no expansions and no direction,
this is one of the scarier ideas put on this group. VTES is a
versatile vehicle that encompasses a great game, and White Wolf from
what I can tell is committed to it. If Vampire: The Masquerade is
White Wolf's child then VTES is like their grandchild. It's not going
to be like its daddy, but will have to succeed on it own merits.
I think Nights of Reckoning was a good start for some of the variety
that VTES can encompass and shows the possibility of diversification.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
....the nWod probably doesn't even have archons.
Jeff Kuta
Well, I guess I was thinking that you'd probably have clan-specific
vampires which weren't applicable to both worlds. I don't know enough
about WOD2 to make a statement, but I do know that the clans have
changed significantly and this could be a way to call both the 1.0 and
2.0 Gangrel the same thing, but allow them to keep separate. If G4/G5
were Gangrel 1.0 and G6/G7 were Gangrel 2.0, you'd lose some of the
diversity (assuming the clans are sufficiently different).
I guess I'm just envisioning a problem similar to Assamites who have
different Castes, as well as the City/Country !Gangrel issue but on a
bigger scale--there are only so many vampires of a given clan that WW
will publish in any given grouping pair.
Jeff
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> > I'm of the opinion right now that if we
> > bring WoD 2.0 into V:TES, that may change WW/CCP's attitude about
> > V:TES and have them steer Oscar back towards helping out V:TES.
>
> As I have already told you on IRC, I do not believe that VTES will get
> proper support from CCP/WW regardless of whether it's old WoD or new
> WoD. So I do not see the need to add new WoD stuff to VTES.
And as I have already told you on IRC, I see a company that just had
a $25,000 tournament for the EVE ccg at GenCon. EVE is obviously one
of the WW/CCP core brands. WW/CCP is certainly kicking in a lot of
money into the EVE ccg because it had a lackluster launch and they're
looking to jumpstart it (discussions on the quality of the game are
immaterial, as far as I'm concerned). V:TES doesn't need any help
getting jumpstarted - the game's been around for 14 years and has
already survived one "death". However, I'm sure we're all in
agreement that the same level of support to help grow the game beyond
where it is now would be very much appreciated. I'm personally not
inclined to adopt a defeatist attitude and think that we're going to
get mediocre support no matter what. I want White Wolf to treat V:TES
as a core product and not some bastard stepchild. It's a tall order,
since it uses intellectual property they chose to move away from.
- Ben Peal
XZealot
Silly----> Appolonius
Unbelievably Silly----> Appolonius becoming Brujah Justicar and
burning your Lorrie Dunsirn with a PTO
Whack me over the head with the Football Bat Silly---> Appolonius
becoming Brujah Justicar burning Lorrie Dunsirn with a PTO which
enables him to win the Finals of the North American Championship.
....and you say that wouldn't be a problem?!?!
XZealot
> On Sep 6, 10:24 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, XZealot wrote:
> > > Why wouldn't the numeric system we currently use suffice? Why
> > > wouldn't you be able to mix characters from different games? Wouldn't
> > > that be fun to have Theo Bell marching beside Prince Stuffy Pants of
> > > NWoD Chicago? Why do they have to be incompatable?
>
> > Yeah, it wouldn't bother me at all to mix the two worlds. There are
> > enough silly things in vtes already that it shouldn't cause any real
> > problems.
>
> Mixing the Star Wars world with VTES wouldn't bother you either, as
> you told me on IRC ;-)
>
Vampire Yoda!
I thought he was Grover's lovable greenskin uncle!
I'm so confused!
Blooded Sand
Now instead of thinking of the problem at hand, I'm trying to imagine
a Sith Lord Tzimisce.....
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal wrote:
> >> It seems to me that if we want WW/CCP to get fully behind V:TES,
> >> with proper support and marketing, we need V:TES to be part of WW/
> >> CCP's company and brand focus. That is, we need the new WoD in
> >> V:TES.
>
> First question : are you really sure that WW would focus more on the game if
> that was the case ?
That will take more research and headhunting than I've had time to
do while I've been at work today. :) However, I will be putting the
work into it over the next few days.
Keep in mind that WW/CCP just had a $25,000 tournament at GenCon for
the EVE ccg, with EVE obviously being one of their core brands. It's
the kind of thing that makes you ask, "What about us?"
Questions I have include:
"Is it the case that White Wolf is happy with the money they're
making from V:TES using so little effort in marketing, such that
they're inclined to keep things as they are and spend their marketing
money and effort elsewhere?"
"Is White Wolf hesitant to create a stronger marketing presence for
V:TES because of possible conflicts with their intellectual property
and brands?"
"Where does V:TES rank in terms of overall sales for White Wolf?"
"Who is the Directory/Manager of Product Development for V:TES?"
"What is the short term and long term plan for V:TES product
development?"
"How exactly does V:TES fit into the scheme of things at WWCCP?"
"What is the current active Prince discussion forum? When will we
see a National Coordinator forum?"
"Is there any plan for consolidating the marketing and/or
organization of WW/CCP's ccgs?"
"No, really, WTF is up with the website?"
- Ben
Salem
> "No, really, WTF is up with the website?"
heh. my first genuine LOL for the day, and it's only 8am!
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
Salem
> On Sep 6, 3:24 pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, XZealot wrote:
>> > Why wouldn't the numeric system we currently use suffice? Why
>> > wouldn't you be able to mix characters from different games? Wouldn't
>> > that be fun to have Theo Bell marching beside Prince Stuffy Pants of
>> > NWoD Chicago? Why do they have to be incompatable?
>>
>> Yeah, it wouldn't bother me at all to mix the two worlds. There are
>> enough silly things in vtes already that it shouldn't cause any real
>> problems.
>
> Silly----> Appolonius
>
> Unbelievably Silly----> Appolonius becoming Brujah Justicar and
> burning your Lorrie Dunsirn with a PTO
>
> Whack me over the head with the Football Bat Silly---> Appolonius
> becoming Brujah Justicar burning Lorrie Dunsirn with a PTO which
> enables him to win the Finals of the North American Championship.
did that actually happen? if so: cool!
Appolonius has always been underrated*.
--
salem
* probably because he sucks.
Salem
>
> .....the nWod probably doesn't even have archons.
>
or trophies....
--
salem
(does it have trophies?)
Peter D Bakija
ben...@gmail.com wrote:
> I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game.
I can't see it being a problem at all, in reality:
-Make all the NWOD vampires a totally incompatable group (say, G17?).
-From what I understand, most of the disciplines are more or less the
same, just with new names. Find the closest match, give them that
discipline (i.e. "vigor" = "potence"), and just note in the NWOD
rulebook what disciplines are equivelant to what disciplines (i.e. "This
clan has vigor. Vigor is represented by a little fist in a box or a
diamond. In other versions of the rules, vigor is called potence, but
for all purposes, they are interchangeable).
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"Find hungry samurai."
-The Old Man
atomweaver
@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
> I sometimes wish i could win the UK or Florida or euro lotto or
> something like that, so i could buy the franchise from WW and run it
> the way it should be run...
>
Dude. They've been _trying_ to contact you for weeks, now... Haven't you,
like, been checking you email..? ;-)
DZ
AW
librarian
> In article <1189091283.2...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
> ben...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I know it would create all kinds of canon/flavor weirdness
>> having WoD 2.0 vampires and old WoD vampires in the same game.
>
> I can't see it being a problem at all, in reality:
>
> -Make all the NWOD vampires a totally incompatable group (say, G17?).
>
And in the NWOD rule book, ban Govern, Conditioning, and PTO (or was it
DI or Memories?)
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
John P.
> Ben Peal skrev:
>
> > Right now, the only White Wolf internal guy we can talk to is an
> > overworked Organized Play Coordinator who's been getting dragged
> > into a million different directions ever since White Wolf and CCP
> > merged. I'm willing to bet that Oscar is being told by WW/CCP to
> > focus his marketing efforts on their core brands.
>
> I just want to clarify that I don't mean this as a criticism of
> Oscar, but rather as comments on a state of affairs that appears to be
> at least as I perceive them to be), Oscar has managed to triple the
> budget for the NAC and EC for 2007 and beyond (I have no information
> about the SAC or AC), and convinced WW/CCP that they should advertise
> on the front cover of Game Trade. I think part of the frustration
> we're feeling comes from the fact that Oscar is one of us, and as such
> we're expecting that we should be getting a certain level of TLC from
> someone who truly understands the V:TES community. At the risk of
> spewing "apologist crap", it's my belief that what's going on right
> now isn't Oscar's fault. I'm of the opinion right now that if we
> bring WoD 2.0 into V:TES, that may change WW/CCP's attitude about
> V:TES and have them steer Oscar back towards helping out V:TES.
>
I agree with your goal but this may not be the best place to put this.
We(I?) generally operate on the assumption that Oscar, Scott and the
odd
intern might read the posts on this group. I think Steve used to read
on
occassion but not sure if he or Stuart still do or even if they are
still associated on the VTES side.
But I think it is safe to say that the CCP people probably are not
lurking around
here in their spare time. So Oscar might pass this along to the next
level but chances are its not going to light anyone's fire. I suspect
that
as the Organized Play coordinator, as you mentioned, (is Oscar the
VTES org
play coordinator or the WW/CCP org play coordinator now?) Oscar is
crazy busy
doing his stuff. For the level of interest we need from the company
we
need to leapfrog Oscar, not because Oscar is not good at what he does
or is not willing, but because I suspect the levels of management
above
Oscar are used to hearing from Oscar, and having the customers reach
to that next tier to voice their issues has more impact.
Now how to reach that next level is an entirely different kettle of
fish.
The second reason that this may not be the best place to push for
change
is that a company like CCP is used to hordes of fanboys in their games
griping
on forums about what needs to change or what was done wrong. They turn
a blind ear if they so wish to the internet. They had that whole
apparent
debacle with EVE online and that ethical thing that was mentioned
right
after the merger and did they respond to the hordes of
compaints/"suggestions"
online? Not in any real way that the complainers wanted them to.
We may need to take our action, be it letters or other demonstrations
of our devotion and requests offline. The current trend in television
is to mail
hordes of stuff related to your "baby" to the company VPs or such to
give
a physical reminder of the issue to the target. But this may be more
militant
thant is appropriate at this point. (farscape fans mailed crackers, to
the Sci-
Fi network to protest cancellation, Jerimiah fans mailed peanuts to
network
brass, etc). Perhaps the simpilest (and most polite) approach at this
time
is simply old fasioned letters.
And that is where this discussion can be useful. Rather than preaching
to the converted who are already here, this discussion can be used
to get ourselves unified behind one message, one request, and one
approach.
I may be ranting here, and do not assume I know what I am talking
about. I'm
just tossing out thoughts.
John P.
Winnipeg
XZealot
> I agree with your goal but this may not be the best place to put this.
> We(I?) generally operate on the assumption that Oscar, Scott and the
> odd
> intern might read the posts on this group. I think Steve used to read
> on
> occassion but not sure if he or Stuart still do or even if they are
> still associated on the VTES side.
Steve and Stuart, AFIK, aren't even involved with the day to day
running of WW.
Right, that was their blip that actually got me interested in play EVE
for about 3 days.
> We may need to take our action, be it letters or other demonstrations
> of our devotion and requests offline. The current trend in television
> is to mail
> hordes of stuff related to your "baby" to the company VPs or such to
> give
> a physical reminder of the issue to the target. But this may be more
> militant
> thant is appropriate at this point. (farscape fans mailed crackers, to
> the Sci-
> Fi network to protest cancellation, Jerimiah fans mailed peanuts to
> network
> brass, etc). Perhaps the simpilest (and most polite) approach at this
> time
> is simply old fasioned letters.
Good stuff, it shows organizational solidarity in the fanbase.
> And that is where this discussion can be useful. Rather than preaching
> to the converted who are already here, this discussion can be used
> to get ourselves unified behind one message, one request, and one
> approach.
>
> I may be ranting here, and do not assume I know what I am talking
> about. I'm
> just tossing out thoughts.
That's a good idea.
Johannes Walch
>> I agree with your goal but this may not be the best place to put this.
>> We(I?) generally operate on the assumption that Oscar, Scott and the
>> odd
>> intern might read the posts on this group. I think Steve used to read
>> on
>> occassion but not sure if he or Stuart still do or even if they are
>> still associated on the VTES side.
>
> Steve and Stuart, AFIK, aren't even involved with the day to day
> running of WW.
I think the guy愀 name is Stewart.
--
Johannes Walch
Jadasc
> -From what I understand, most of the disciplines are more or less the
> same, just with new names. Find the closest match, give them that
> discipline (i.e. "vigor" = "potence"), and just note in the NWOD
> rulebook what disciplines are equivalent to what disciplines (i.e. "This
> clan has vigor. Vigor is represented by a little fist in a box or a
> diamond. In other versions of the rules, vigor is called potence, but
> for all purposes, they are interchangeable).
Has anyone tried working up the new clans in a CaC format? The Daeva
have the Brujah skill set, and the Gangrel are unchanged, but has
anyone given a run to Mekhet (aus-cel-obf), nuVentrue (ani-dom-for),
or nuNos (dem-obf-pot)?
Jason
John P.
> > We may need to take our action, be it letters or other demonstrations
> > of our devotion and requests offline. The current trend in television
> > is to mail hordes of stuff related to your "baby" to the company VPs
> > or such to give a physical reminder of the issue to the target. But
> > this may be more militant than is appropriate at this point.
> > (farscape fans mailed crackers, to the Sci-Fi network to protest
> > cancellation, Jerimiah fans mailed peanuts to network brass,
> > etc). Perhaps the simpilest (and most polite) approach at this
> > time is simply old fasioned letters.
>
> Good stuff, it shows organizational solidarity in the fanbase.
>
> > And that is where this discussion can be useful. Rather than preaching
> > to the converted who are already here, this discussion can be used
> > to get ourselves unified behind one message, one request, and one
> > approach.
>
> > I may be ranting here, and do not assume I know what I am talking
> > about. I'm
> > just tossing out thoughts.
>
> That's a good idea.
>
> Comments Welcome,
> Norman S. Brown, Jr
> XZealot
> Archon of the Swamp
On continued reflection, my concern would be that we might not have
the
to pull it off. Letters never hurt, but 50 letters arriving on
someones
desk is a small inconvenience.
John P.
Winnipeg
librarian
Great idea Jason.
Meej
> Has anyone tried working up the new clans in a CaC format? The Daeva
> have the Brujah skill set, and the Gangrel are unchanged, but has
> anyone given a run to Mekhet (aus-cel-obf), nuVentrue (ani-dom-for),
> or nuNos (dem-obf-pot)?
I thought about it for the recent Boston C-a-C. (And you were out of
ideas! Had you only thought of this then...)
Anyhow, my take on nWoD in VtES: The major element of Requiem that
separates it from Masquerade, really, is that Covenant (the new "mini-
sects") is equally important with Clan in a lot of ways, and that
unlike Masquerade the Covenants aren't in an all-out war, just an
uneasy truce. If that mix of faction loyalty and family loyalty which
are sometimes in conflict with one another didn't reflect over into
any CCG adaptation of Requiem, it'd be missing a lot of the
distinctiveness of the setting, and a lot of potential richness in
mechanics that's opened up.
That's certainly something doable, but it's definitely an element that
needs to be there, to some extent...
(There are other things I think ought to happen at the same time, were
they ever to do something like this, but those are a whole host of
other issues.)
- D.J.
Jadasc
> On Sep 7, 12:13 pm, Jadasc <jad...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I thought about it for the recent Boston C-a-C. (And you were out of
> ideas! Had you only thought of this then...)
One of those "staircase moments."
> Anyhow, my take on nWoD in VtES: The major element of Requiem that
> separates it from Masquerade, really, is that Covenant (the new "mini-
> sects") is equally important with Clan in a lot of ways, and that
> unlike Masquerade the Covenants aren't in an all-out war, just an
> uneasy truce.
That's one of the elements that's easy to reproduce in VtES, though:
having
a crypt with vampires of differing sects is perfectly permissible.
Jason
Morgan Vening
I'm not familiar with the Requiem metaverse, but couldn't the sect be
something like Requiem, and Covenants be represented as a similarity
to the Blood Brothers Circles? What does the vampire 'gain' from being
a member of a specific Covenant? That'd define what's necessary to
incorporate it into a VtES format.
Morgan Vening
omb...@googlemail.com
Covenants it's the scale of the game. There is no real level of
political organisation above the city in Requiem, no Cardinals,
Justicars or Inner Circle members.
For all that both settings have their similarities there are so many
differences that any attempt to squeeze Requiem aspects into the game
would result in generic vampire CCG rather than the thing which IMO
takes VTES beyond purely good system and mechanics, the fact that it
reflects it's source material so well.
If Requiem ever was to be introduced as a CCG I would love it to use
VTES system and mechanics. You could use a large proportion of the
VTES library cards, you would need to remove anything that refered to
Clan, Sect or Masquerade metaplot but I think that most other cards
would still fit in, some maybe with a little re-themeing, even those
disciplines that aren't used by the five clans could be used in
expansions by bloodlines (another plus, due to the non canon nature of
the world setting the only limitation to new disciplines and
bloodlines is imagination). Covenants would be the equivelent of sects
for all purposes except politics (see below), you only have five clans
but you can introduce an unlimited number of bloodlines (also having
actions to allow vampires of a certain clan to join specific
bloodlines, or something more general but keep the clan prerequisit of
joining a bloodline).
The major change I would like to see between a Requiem and a
Masquerade game would be in scale and hence the politics game.
It appears to me that a Requiem game would benefit if each game was
purely set in one city and not the continents spanning Jyhad of VTES.
So instead of having multiple Princes, Archbishops and other titles
there could only exist one Prince or Prince equivilent title. Other
titles would cover the standard offices presented in Requiem quick
ideas for example abilities being.
Prince: (5 votes) May remove any title or domain as a +1 stealth
political action
Primogen: (2 votes)
Sheriff: Enter combat as a +1 stealth action
Some vampires should come with untitled votes (just to show political
influence) and later expansions could introduce different political
systems, for example a Carthian city may want to play a card that
gives all minions a vote, have a Tyrant Prince card which reduces
Primogens votes and allows the Prince to remove titles with a +1
stealth action, Invictus Boardroom (extra vote for all Primogen and
Primogen can move prince title). There would have to be a system for
how they would interact but I don't have any clever ideas at the
moment.
The only other thing to introduce would be a Domain:xxxxx Location
I realise that this stands no chance of ever happening, but I like
Requiem as much as I like Masquerade and I really like the idea of a
Local game set in one generic city, and I just want to share
Jadasc
> I'm not familiar with the Requiem metaverse, but couldn't the sect be
> something like Requiem, and Covenants be represented as a similarity
> to the Blood Brothers Circles?
I think what you're imagining is something like a coterie or a pack.
Covenants
are bigger than those, but smaller than the huge sects that you see in
VtM.
> What does the vampire 'gain' from being
> a member of a specific Covenant?
Well, there are five:
The Invictus get access to an "old boys network" of hierarchical power
and lotsa cash.
They're sorta like the Camarilla.
The Lancea Sanctum get moral purpose and access to magic. They're
sorta like the Sabbat,
at least the part of the Sabbat that has titles like "Bishop" and
"Cardinal."
The Circle of the Crone get the other kind of magic, and ties to
witchery and other supernatural
hoodoo. They're sorta like the Laibon in what they get, game-wise.
The Carthian Movement is quite similar to the Anarchs, and they get
networks of "fellow travelers"
and hideouts in every city.
The Ordo Dracul gets psuedo-science transmutations that allow you to
avoid some of
the pitfalls of being a vampire. In VtES terms, they're most like the
Black Hand in their insularity
and access to weirdness -- but with elements of the Tremere and the
Tzimisce folded in.
Jason
librarian
>
> The major change I would like to see between a Requiem and a
> Masquerade game would be in scale and hence the politics game.
>
> It appears to me that a Requiem game would benefit if each game was
> purely set in one city and not the continents spanning Jyhad of VTES.
> So instead of having multiple Princes, Archbishops and other titles
> there could only exist one Prince or Prince equivilent title.
Sounds more appropriate as some sort of event.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
>
> political element be covered?
The very real problem with converting Requiem into V;TES 2.0 is that
the writers of Requiem were extraorinarily lazy when devising the
terminology and nomenclature of the new game. Instead of coming up
with new terminology/clan names/concepts, they hacked the old game to
pieces and re-assembled it, using the same lexicon [with perhaps a
letter or two changed here and there]. You will see titles like
Priscus/Inquisitor/Archon etc used in Requiem, but they'll mean
entirely different things to what they meant in the old WoD. Several
old WoD clans exist and have been re-hashed in Requiem [some with
slightly altered powers] but some have been entirely re-written. There
are some new clans thrown in also.
Additionally, and entirely more problematically the concepts upon
which VTES is founded are fundamentally altered in Requiem. As
vampires get older, they tend to get overwhelmed with the ravages of
their beast and must eventually go to torpor - a state wherein they
lose much of their power and memory. In other words, there are no
vampires in Requiem that have been running around for 4000 years and
now wage an invisible war against their brethren. In short, there are
no Methuselahs and there is no Jyhad to the extent we understand it in
old WoD terms. There is no Camarilla, there is no Sabbat. Cities are
isolated islands unto themselves - there is no overarching world-wide
vampire heirarchy to speak of. Fundamental concepts of VTES do not
exist in the Requiem setting.
In other words, the Requiem CCG would have to be non-compatible with
VTES. The system could be the same, but the cards couldn't overlap. It
would confuse the living sh*t out of people.
So VTES dies if Requiem is born.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> And as I have already told you on IRC, I see a company that just had
> a $25,000 tournament for the EVE ccg at GenCon. EVE is obviously one
> of the WW/CCP core brands.
Additionally, EVE has the playerbase of the MMO to fall back on.
Presumably WW/CCP watched how Blizzard turned World of Warcraft's
9million players onto the CCG and are attempting to emulate. VTES and
the old WoD [even the Requiem game, i'd wager] doesn't have the
inherint fanbase that an MMO like EVE does, so it's less of a sure
bet.
> WW/CCP is certainly kicking in a lot of
> money into the EVE ccg because it had a lackluster launch and they're
> looking to jumpstart it (discussions on the quality of the game are
> immaterial, as far as I'm concerned). V:TES doesn't need any help
> getting jumpstarted - the game's been around for 14 years and has
> already survived one "death". However, I'm sure we're all in
> agreement that the same level of support to help grow the game beyond
> where it is now would be very much appreciated.
I think for this to happen, WW/CCP would need to abandon the old WoD
as you've said. A Requiem CCG simply couldn't be compatible with VTES
- I wrote another post about it in this thread, cbf'ed retyping.
But basically VTES needs to die if WW are going to introduce a Requiem
CCG. The core rules could be pretty easily converted over, but the
paradigms don't go hand in hand.
ben...@gmail.com
> > And as I have already told you on IRC, I see a company that just had
> > a $25,000 tournament for the EVE ccg at GenCon. EVE is obviously one
> > of the WW/CCP core brands.
>
> Additionally, EVE has the playerbase of the MMO to fall back on.
> Presumably WW/CCP watched how Blizzard turned World of Warcraft's
> 9million players onto the CCG and are attempting to emulate.
EVE's playerbase is currently 190,000 active subscribers. I'd be
curious as to the size of the Camarilla fan club and the units sold of
the WoD books.
As for how they choose to market their brand, sure, they're trying
to emulate the Warcraft CCG. I wouldn't be at all surprised if WW/CCP
releases a tabletop EVE rpg line soon, as well. You create a strong
intellectual property, and then find more vehicles for that property.
WW/CCP is not pursuing more vehicles for the old World of Darkness.
> VTES and the old WoD [even the Requiem game, i'd wager] doesn't have
> the inherint fanbase that an MMO like EVE does, so it's less of a sure
> bet.
EVE Online certainly has a much larger player base than V:TES, but
the EVE ccg does not. The game had a failed launch, and WW/CCP is
trying to jumpstart it with a big promotional push. If you're looking
for sure bets, look at V:TES. Lords of the Night will be its 13th
expansion under White Wolf. Back when Steve Wieck was directing
product development for V:TES, he mentioned (iirc) that the game
consistently generated about 3-5% of WW's gross revenue, with a better
profit margin than their other lines. Small potatoes, sure, but they
always have potatoes.
> I think for this to happen, WW/CCP would need to abandon the old WoD
> as you've said. A Requiem CCG simply couldn't be compatible with VTES
> - I wrote another post about it in this thread, cbf'ed retyping.
>
> But basically VTES needs to die if WW are going to introduce a Requiem
> CCG. The core rules could be pretty easily converted over, but the
> paradigms don't go hand in hand.
The problem is that if they kill V:TES, they kill any hope of a
separate Requiem ccg.
- Ben
Robert Goudie
> noodleboy wrote:
> > But basically VTES needs to die if WW are going to introduce a Requiem
> > CCG. The core rules could be pretty easily converted over, but the
> > paradigms don't go hand in hand.
>
> The problem is that if they kill V:TES, they kill any hope of a
> separate Requiem ccg.
Also, if they were going to kill vtes, they would have done it with
Gehenna. There was an understanding among those at WW that V:TES
players would not automatically migrate to a new Requiem CCG. I
haven't seen anything since then that would make me bet on that
meeting with success now.
-Robert
preac...@gmx.at
> I mean no offense, Robert, but spare us the apologist crap. It is
> White Wolf's responsibility to advertise their own product. They put
> up information about Changeling and the new EVE expansion on the front
> page of the White Wolf site, so why can't they do that for Lords of
> the Night? The expansion advertised at the top of the V:TES main page
> is Sword of Caine. How hard is it to change that to a picture of
> Lords of the Night and link it to the prevew page? I hear that
> there's something called the North American Championships happening in
> LA in two weeks. However, you wouldn't know it by looking at the main
> page of the White Wolf website or the main page of the V:TES website -
> oh, wait, there's a tiny link about it at the very bottom of the V:TES
> page dated 9/27/2006. I hear that Frankie Vasadi won the EC in
> Sweden, but there's no mention of that, either.
>
> Green Ronin is publishing a book called Hobby Games: The 100 Best,
> with luminaries of the gaming industry writing articles on each game.
> Vampire: The Eternal Struggle is one of the 100 best. If it's that
> good, why doesn't White Wolf see fit to advertise it better on their
> website? Info about the book can be found here: http://www.greenronin.com/store/grr4001
>
> It's awesome that White Wolf paid to have Lords of the Night on the
> front cover of Game Trade, along with a two-page article about it.
> They still need to back it up with a stronger website presence. At
> this rate, they should just redirectwww.white-wolf.com/vtestowww.thelasombra.com. Jeff keeps his information up to date because
> he's passionate about the game and because he runs a business selling
> V:TES. I repeat: a business selling V:TES.
>
> - Ben
I would like to chime in here and say that I feel the same way as Ben.
While some people in the community do an excellent job pushing VTES
and stuff, WW is showing again and again that they simply cannot
handle some of the important things for the game.
I mean, how hard can it be to have the VTES-website up to date? How
hard can it be to put up articles written by volunteers(!) about the
recent EC?
How hard can it be to change the ad from Sword of Caine to Lords of
the Night?
Think about the recent contest of the most popular CCGs that VTES won
(don't know the name of the site anymore). I voted for VTES. :)
Did WW capitalize on it (apart from Oscar posting there once)? I don't
think so.
Ratings? There are still some definite problems with that. I read that
players in Germany are *indeed* interested in the ratings. ;) (I
remember a lot of traffic about the ratings and Stephane and others
involved in creating the new system - now it seems that no-one cares
anymore.)
When was the last time we had live-chat with the developers and brand-
managers about the future of VTES? That died quietly, too.
When was the last time the brand-manager of VTES talked directly to
the players? Who *is* the current brand-manager? (I *really* miss
Steve...).
What happened to the storyline events? We had a great thing going on,
it really could have been an ongoing story to continue on with a new
"canon".
What happened to a follow-up of the players' guide (which I heard sold
out quite fast)? (Yeah, I know there has been one for KMW but only as
e-book.)
Disclaimer: I in no way want to blame you, Robert, for the last 2
points. I know you have a lot to do with the NAC. The planning takes
years and running such an event is huge (I should know that having run
3 of them in the past...*g*) . You are doing a great job. It's just it
shouldn't always be volunteers - WW should pay *more* people for
pushing VTES.
I really feel that WW is considerably less enthusiastic about their
oWoD CCG than they were when they took it over from WotC in 2000. I
still remember how Steve Wieck personally took the reins of the brand
in his hands after we (the old VEKN, the ng-luminaries, etc) showed
him how much potential there is for the game... I mean, the EC in that
year put things in motion again in the old world, thank on no small
part to Steve. ;)
I want commitment from WW. I want them to come forward and tell us
where things will be going to. It's not that hard to commune with the
players, i.e. post a message every now and then. Or bring the live-
chats back to live...
If a new version of VTES would be launched, and the old cards were not
compatible, I sincerely doubt that I would buy the new version, even
if the mechanics are the same. I have to admit that I like the oWoD
very much, and for LARPers the new WoD is not as playable. :(
As I have nothing more to say, I think I'll end my rant. ;)
Love you all. :)
Carl
(who hasn't done a thing for VTES, other than buying expansions and
playing a couple of games, for a couple of years...) :(
Johannes Walch
> EVE Online certainly has a much larger player base than V:TES, but
> the EVE ccg does not. The game had a failed launch, and WW/CCP is
> trying to jumpstart it with a big promotional push.
What a great idea. Let愀 throw money at people to introduce a mediocre
game into an allready oversaturated market.
*sigh*
> If you're looking
> for sure bets, look at V:TES. Lords of the Night will be its 13th
> expansion under White Wolf. Back when Steve Wieck was directing
> product development for V:TES, he mentioned (iirc) that the game
> consistently generated about 3-5% of WW's gross revenue, with a better
> profit margin than their other lines. Small potatoes, sure, but they
> always have potatoes.
And the potatoes could be a good bit bigger if they invested money in
people who work at the promotion of the game.
I think it would still be a great idea to take some people out of the
existing community and pay them to do stuff like a decent website as
part-time contractors for White Wolf.
--
Johannes Walch
Blooded Sand
> benp...@gmail.com schrieb:
>
> > EVE Online certainly has a much larger player base than V:TES, but
> > the EVE ccg does not. The game had a failed launch, and WW/CCP is
> > trying to jumpstart it with a big promotional push.
>
> game into an allready oversaturated market.
>
> *sigh*
>
> > If you're looking
> > for sure bets, look at V:TES. Lords of the Night will be its 13th
> > expansion under White Wolf. Back when Steve Wieck was directing
> > product development for V:TES, he mentioned (iirc) that the game
> > consistently generated about 3-5% of WW's gross revenue, with a better
> > profit margin than their other lines. Small potatoes, sure, but they
> > always have potatoes.
>
> And the potatoes could be a good bit bigger if they invested money in
> people who work at the promotion of the game.
>
> I think it would still be a great idea to take some people out of the
> existing community and pay them to do stuff like a decent website as
> part-time contractors for White Wolf.
>
> --
> Johannes Walch
Take this a step further. Imagine being given the budget that has been
allocated to EVE ccg, and giving the same to VtES. Not necesarily
prize support in the form of cash, but proper support. The kind that
goes beyond "Hey lets feed the hungry masses cake and buy a front page
add" (sorry Marie A:)
Imagine if the guys who are currently volunteers only, and do this
purely for the love, were told they can make money, if not a living at
it. Do you think the level of pushing VtES would rise? More so than
what is being achieved by WW at the moment?
Shade
> What a great idea. Let´s throw money at people to introduce a mediocre
> game into an allready oversaturated market.
>
> *sigh*
Yeah it would be really funny if it wasn't so true and the money could
be so much more usefully spent elsewhere :-(
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> EVE's playerbase is currently 190,000 active subscribers. I'd be
> curious as to the size of the Camarilla fan club and the units sold of
> the WoD books.
Can't speak for the latter, but the Camarilla fan club only has around
4,000 members worldwide. That's decreased from around 7,000 under the
Masquerade setting.
> As for how they choose to market their brand, sure, they're trying
> to emulate the Warcraft CCG. I wouldn't be at all surprised if WW/CCP
> releases a tabletop EVE rpg line soon, as well. You create a strong
> intellectual property, and then find more vehicles for that property.
> WW/CCP is not pursuing more vehicles for the old World of Darkness.
Correct. it seems to be a dead product line for them, which explains
their reticence to overly promote it. By throwing money at VTES,
they're promoting a setting they officially killed off three years
ago. This sets up all kind of confusion in the minds of their market,
or at least, they probably think it does. Truth be told, most Requiem
players are former Masquerade players, so i doubt they'd be confused
at all. In fact, i've got a couple of my old masquerade buddies to try
VTES recently because it's the last surviving bastion of a paradigm
that most consider superior to Requiem.
"You know, i really miss the old World of Darkness..."
[jason fishes around in his bag of 20+ decks] "Oh reeeeeeally...."
> EVE Online certainly has a much larger player base than V:TES, but
> the EVE ccg does not. The game had a failed launch, and WW/CCP is
> trying to jumpstart it with a big promotional push. If you're looking
> for sure bets, look at V:TES. Lords of the Night will be its 13th
> expansion under White Wolf. Back when Steve Wieck was directing
> product development for V:TES, he mentioned (iirc) that the game
> consistently generated about 3-5% of WW's gross revenue, with a better
> profit margin than their other lines. Small potatoes, sure, but they
> always have potatoes.
I agree 100%, but EVE was a gamble WW had to take. The odds were in
their favour - it's not such a stretch to imagine that the EVE CCG
would have taken off in the same fashion that the WoW CCg was
sucessful. Now that WW have committed a large sum of money by printing/
launching the game, they need to give it the best chance they can to
have it succeed before they outright scrap it and everyone associated
with it loses their jobs.
Truth be told, WW are probably happy with the way VTES is ticking
over. It's a lazy 3-5% of their revenue with minimal effort and a
fanatically loyal fanbase who will seek out and buy the product with
no promotional effort on their behalf whatsoever.
Whether someon eat WW is visionary enough to realise VTES could be
more than that, well, that remains to be seen. But there ARE very real
real and limiting factors preventing VTES being a popular mainstream
type CCG, most notably the time it takes to play a game. Games like
magic, wow, etc are all designed for a "quick fix" audience. VTES
takes 2 hours as we all know.
> The problem is that if they kill V:TES, they kill any hope of a
> separate Requiem ccg.
I'm not so sure about that. Requiem could be converted to a "VTES-
like" ccg reasonably easily. Most of the disciplines are straight rips
from Masquerade, combat would convert very easily, other concepts
could be bent and bashed so they fit the game structure. It would
certainly be a different game, but similar in many, many respects.
With the right handling, it could be done.
Would many old players like me view the change-over as a signal that
it's time to hang up the spurs after 13 years? Maybe. I doubt it's a
gamble WW are willing to take. 5% is 5%, after all.
Damnans
> Damnans wrote:
> > Ben Peal wrote:
[...]
> I want White Wolf to treat V:TES
> as a core product and not some bastard stepchild. It's a tall order,
> since it uses intellectual property they chose to move away from.
In the times of the old World of Darkness, VTES was still under-
supported by White Wolf. What makes you think that adding Requiem
stuff to it would increase CCP/WW's support to VTES?
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
SPORE
>
> > As for how they choose to market their brand, sure, they're trying
> > to emulate the Warcraft CCG. I wouldn't be at all surprised if WW/CCP
> > releases a tabletop EVE rpg line soon, as well. You create a strong
> > intellectual property, and then find more vehicles for that property.
> > WW/CCP is not pursuing more vehicles for the old World of Darkness.
>
> Correct. it seems to be a dead product line for them, which explains
> their reticence to overly promote it. By throwing money at VTES,
> they're promoting a setting they officially killed off three years
> ago. This sets up all kind of confusion in the minds of their market,
> or at least, they probably think it does. Truth be told, most Requiem
> players are former Masquerade players, so i doubt they'd be confused
> at all. In fact, i've got a couple of my old masquerade buddies to try
> VTES recently because it's the last surviving bastion of a paradigm
> that most consider superior to Requiem.
>
> "You know, i really miss the old World of Darkness..."
>
disclaimers: not blaming oscar, lsj, or other workers/middle
management.) when we sink a few hundred bucks into cards from a new
expansion, it may not mean sh*t to someone up there, but some of us
worked for many days to earn that cash. i have nearly always defended
this game, because the love _has_ come through a lot. saved from wotc
and general defunctness, new expansions, the efforts (and i would say
successes) of lsj to make the rules and rulings better and clearer
when obviously the game's entropy grew exponentially, the listening to
the fanbase that said Hey Let Me Play This Game Don't Kill It Along
With The Rest Of WOD, as well as the prize/game support we DO
receive... obviously all of these things show caring.
it is not hard to care about the 10th-most-important product you
have. vtes makes them $$$. not as much as some of their more core
lines, obviously, but it is part of their team. top brass needs to
see the whole ballgame. a baseball manager doesn't ridicule his
middle relievers or his top pinch-hitter just because they aren't in
the starting line-up. if it's too much to ask to have a bit more
promotion, just because it's part of a "lost world," then why didn't
we just say fuggit 3 years ago? again, we aren't asking for $25,000
prizes (which at least many in other threads agreed with me would turn
vtes into something else, not a better something else,) we are asking
that with minimal time before the NAC and new product release, that we
be given simple hypertext links from the WWmainpage.
-
and 2nd/most importantly:
i completely disagree with many of the thoughts of this thread, as far
as leading us into the nuWOD for vtes. different world = please make
different game. don't do some half-assed patch-up that comes into the
vekn tourney world and starts making new problems and even makes old
problems worse (we can't know this is what will happen, but i for one
see it as a likelihood.) we have a great game, as we know, and as
voters knew in game polls. it may be their product, but it is OUR
game. we can play it without them ever issuing another card, or
collecting another cent. we can keep it alive for a decade if they
drop it... as someone pointed out: it has already survived one death.
the letter-writing campaign, if any, should mention that WW needs the
players a heluva lot more than the players need WW. we already own
enough .44s, concealed wpns, bums rushes, and blurs to have fun for
years to come.
just getting this idea out there. that we do not need a hyperlink to
the new expansion preview; that THEY need a hyperlink to the new
expansion preview. i've ordered for this set, and i look forward to
the fun these cards will add to my vtes experience. i hope i can look
forward to WW's top brass sending us fun like this for years to come
and at a healthy profit for them. but i don't want or need a "re-
thinking" of the entire game to come more in line with their core
products. i don't want star wars or nuWOD expansions. i like vtes.
not that it can never change, but imbued was plenty. we're still
seeing cards released to try to fix/balance that oopsy. take it slow,
and you will have years of loyalty from us. maybe decades.... maybe
longer....
No Gamechild Left Behind. please.
john mickle, mage of spores
in the years of the first death, we had a blast trying to come up with
more ways to use sheldon, or finding the weird things that carlotta
giovanni could do. i think i could use the cards i have now to come
up with fun for a long damn time. and the new C-a-C rules are
awesome, so there's always that...
rant over.
bluedevil
> Imagine if the guys who are currently volunteers only, and do this
> purely for the love, were told they can make money, if not a living at
> it. Do you think the level of pushing VtES would rise? More so than
> what is being achieved by WW at the moment?
I don't know about making a living at it, but my personal experience
was that it was a lot easier to drum up interest in tournaments (which
then goes on to sustaining interest in between events) when the prize
support was decent. And by "decent" I mean back in the day when Carl
(was that the volunteer guy's name?) would just mail a box of cards to
your house. Any stuff about "but we'll get ripped off" would need to
be backed by hard numbers to persuade me, because they did it that way
once and the company seemed to do fine, and V:TES came back big.
I believe stinginess with prize support is something really holding
this game back.
While I'm at it, I'll add that playtesting is a lot of work, and it
was pretty demoralizing to watch my buddies who were also playtesters
for LoTR and Star Wars getting handed boxes of the new sets for their
efforts.
--
David Cherryholmes
Blooded Sand
This hits home on so many levels. Decent prize support is not going to
seriously mess with their profit margin, especially if it raises the
level and number of players. More players, more sales. Simple....
playtesters also need to be rewarded. Really, its just cheap and
stingy not to give them something for their effort.
But guys, why are we bothering to say anything? Prize support is a
myth in many places, and play testing is seemingly restricted to the
US only, never mind that there are more players in the EU. The more I
read this thread, the more i get the feeling that WW/CCP are never
going to care, and will never do anything about our complaints anyway,
so why bother?
preac...@gmx.at
> I don't know about making a living at it, but my personal experience
> was that it was a lot easier to drum up interest in tournaments (which
> then goes on to sustaining interest in between events) when the prize
> support was decent. And by "decent" I mean back in the day when Carl
> (was that the volunteer guy's name?) would just mail a box of cards to
> your house. Any stuff about "but we'll get ripped off" would need to
> be backed by hard numbers to persuade me, because they did it that way
> once and the company seemed to do fine, and V:TES came back big.
Doing the prize-support stuff was quite an effort. In hindsight, it
would have been better if a paid employee had handled this, cause in
the end, I have to admit, I was lagging quite behind. :(
(Yes, his name is Carl.)
> I believe stinginess with prize support is something really holding
> this game back.
It may be one in many causes, but not the sole one.
> While I'm at it, I'll add that playtesting is a lot of work, and it
> was pretty demoralizing to watch my buddies who were also playtesters
> for LoTR and Star Wars getting handed boxes of the new sets for their
> efforts.
*Sigh*
WotC sent cases for the effort of playtesting. WW - a bit less... ;)
Carl
bluedevil
> But guys, why are we bothering to say anything? Prize support is a
> myth in many places, and play testing is seemingly restricted to the
> US only, never mind that there are more players in the EU. The more I
> read this thread, the more i get the feeling that WW/CCP are never
> going to care, and will never do anything about our complaints anyway,
> so why bother?
Because there are people who do listen. That's been shown many times
in the past. They may not be the tip-top guys who really get to make
the call, but they are a lot closer to having those guys' ear than we
are.
--
David Cherryholmes
Tetragrammaton
Another fact is that, more or less, requiem just failed in getting
the same enthusiast player base as the masquerade did.
In Rome, before requiem, there were no less than 200 players
playing live the Masquerade - a notable number of them managed
to learn vtes in the years.
With the requiem, a lot of player just gave up, or kept on playing (both
live and home)
the old WoD setting, ignoring the new canon.
I still dream if anyone at WW will be persuaded to resume the old WoD line
as rpg,
starting again with a "classic WoD setting", or something like that, to be
put in a post
gehenna setting - i'm sure that would get huge consensus among the
Masquerade/WoD 1.0
fans.
just my 2 cents
Emiliano
ben...@gmail.com
> In the times of the old World of Darkness, VTES was still under-
> supported by White Wolf. What makes you think that adding Requiem
> stuff to it would increase CCP/WW's support to VTES?
You're restating the notion that things will always suck no matter
if it's WotC or WW, new WoD or old WoD. I don't share this defeatist
attitude, and I'm trying to get better support for the game. I like
the idea of moving to the new WoD because WW/CCP has demonstrated that
they will put tens of thousands of dollars of support into a ccg that
uses one of their core brands. If WW/CCP prefers to stick with the
old WoD, then so be it. Either way, I will try to work with them to
get the support we want.
Despite what you seem to believe, we had some good years of support
under WW. I'd like to get back to that.
- Ben
Tetragrammaton
published ?
That would give new life and interest to vtes too, and i bet it would get a
big
success in the players rpg base (LARP fans included).
Emiliano
ben...@gmail.com
> I believe stinginess with prize support is something really holding
> this game back.
For local tournaments, prize support is effectively nonexistent. WW
has chosen to use distributors to get the prize support kits out
there, but in order to do that, you need to have SKUs that retailers
can purchase. By doing so, you can't have prize support kits that are
a better deal than just buying boosters, or else the retailers will
just buy prize support kits instead of normal product to stock their
shelves. However, that just means that we're no better off using
prize support kits for boosters than we'd be if we just spent the same
money buying boosters. So, why bother with prize support kits at all?
Oh, promo cards? For the most part, we end up getting these promos
by the shovelful. It's neat when you finally get a new promo, but not
long afterwards you're up to your armpits in them. They've also
tended to be pretty weak as cards go, so you're not really all that
excited about getting one. On top of it, we have a playerbase that's
insistent upon having cool promos yet also insistent on having those
promos not be hard to get. If the promos are plentiful and easy to
get, then there's less of an incentive to go get them. If you make
them very good, then the playerbase will freak out that
uberpowerfulzor cards can only be gotten at tournaments and that it's
unfair for competitive balance.
For years I've been advocating alternate art or alternate layout
cards as promos. They don't affect competitive balance, so you're
free to make them hard to get. People might consider them cool enough
for prizes. You could include a few of these in a tournament kit,
plus a bunch of a one-for-everyone promo. This is something that
nearly every collectible game out there uses for their local event
support. Even with Friday Night Magic, the only prize support sent by
WotC is a pair of foil cards.
One thing that other ccgs do not do is send out handfuls of
boosters. I know we'd love to go back to the days when WW was sending
us boxes of boosters for free as prize support for local events. Stop
asking for it, because it's not ever going to happen again. All it is
for WW is pouring money down a hole. The return on investment is not
there. No other collectible game does it.
An idea that might work would be to allow the National Coordinators
to purchase WW product at cost from WW, then sell it and ship it at no
profit to Princes running local tournaments. If that Prince posts an
event report to the WW forums and/or the newsgroup and submits the
Archon file to Robyn, then he/she is allowed to order another
tournament kit. If you don't post a report and don't submit the
Archon, then you're cut off. The first problem with this plan is
trusting the NC. WW is already doing this with the Hispanic Conclave,
so they're trusting Gines (and Gines has to answer to the Hispanic
Conclave, which pays membership dues), so presumably WW can trust
other NCs. Another problem (and I'm confused as to how the Hispanic
Conclave resolves this problem) is that the Prince is effectively
selling product at someone's store (if the event is held at a store).
I don't know if game store would go for that. It's up to the Prince
to resolve that himself/herself, I guess.
> While I'm at it, I'll add that playtesting is a lot of work, and it
> was pretty demoralizing to watch my buddies who were also playtesters
> for LoTR and Star Wars getting handed boxes of the new sets for their
> efforts.
It would certainly be a great incentive to get those playtest
reports in on time. :)
Oscar, make this happen. A box of boosters to each playtest group
that submits all of their playtest reports on time and done properly
(like, with some minimum number of game reports per playtest report).
The cost is small and I think the potential benefit for WW is good
enough to warrant it.
- Ben
John Flournoy
Certainly a large number of existing LARP groups and networks did not
transition from WoD 1.0 to 2.0; the Camarilla did (by default), but
the next-biggest/most prominent network is still running 1.0
exclusively. So there's definitely a lot of RPG/LARP players still out
there jonesing for 1.0 content..
> Emiliano
-John Flournoy
Blooded Sand
So you were right David.
Thanks to those who heard some of our pleas. Maybe this means the rest
are being heard as well.
BTW has WW/CCP ever thought of finding out how many oWoD RPGers there
are out there who refuse to turn to nWoD? Because if there are more
Old than New, then surely the financially logical thing is to keep Old
running?
Damnans
> David Cherryholmes wrote:
[...]
> An idea that might work would be to allow the National Coordinators
> to purchase WW product at cost from WW, then sell it and ship it at no
> profit to Princes running local tournaments. If that Prince posts an
> event report to the WW forums and/or the newsgroup and submits the
> Archon file to Robyn, then he/she is allowed to order another
> tournament kit. If you don't post a report and don't submit the
> Archon, then you're cut off. The first problem with this plan is
> trusting the NC. WW is already doing this with the Hispanic Conclave,
> so they're trusting Gines (and Gines has to answer to the Hispanic
> Conclave, which pays membership dues), so presumably WW can trust
> other NCs. Another problem (and I'm confused as to how the Hispanic
> Conclave resolves this problem) is that the Prince is effectively
> selling product at someone's store (if the event is held at a store).
> I don't know if game store would go for that. It's up to the Prince
> to resolve that himself/herself, I guess.
In such a case, the store and the Hispanic Conclave representative in
that city agree on an entry fee for the tournament, and a percentage
of that fee goes to the store and the remaining percentage goes to the
Hispanic Conclave.
And the members of the Hispanic Conclave do not have to pay for the
percentage of Hispanic Conclave's entry fee, as usual. If the HC's
percentage is 100%, then the HC members pay 0, of course.
atomweaver
50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
>
>
> To whom it may concern,
>
> Do you think you could put mentions of the Lords of the Night
> preview page on the main White Wolf website page and the main V:TES
> website page? Do you think you could send a message to the Princes
> forum about how one runs a release event? 3 weeks to go...
>
>
> - Ben Peal, US National Coordinator
>
FYI,
I saw LotN and NAC articles on WW's homepage this afternoon.
DZ
AW
ben...@gmail.com
> Ben Peal skrev:
> > To whom it may concern,
>
> > Do you think you could put mentions of the Lords of the Night
> > preview page on the main White Wolf website page and the main V:TES
> > website page? Do you think you could send a message to the Princes
> > forum about how one runs a release event? 3 weeks to go...
>
> > - Ben Peal, US National Coordinator
>
> FYI,
>
> I saw LotN and NAC articles on WW's homepage this afternoon.
I, like, totally posted about it hours ago. ;)
- Ben
mgre...@googlemail.com
> ...and play testing is seemingly restricted to the
> US only, never mind that there are more players in the EU.
Nah, that's not the case. My playgroup and I tested every WW set from
SW to KMW that I requested that myself and my (then) playgroup be
involved in. I don't think we let any busted stuff through on our
watch. We were wrong about storage Annexe- we thought that would prove
to be more powerful than it was.
It takes a massive amount of (my) effort to playtest the sub-set of
cards you receive to any degree of rigor. There is a finacial reward
if you are mercenary enough in that you can swoop on singles before
the populous sorts the wheat from the chaff.
Matt
Johannes Walch
> An idea that might work would be to allow the National Coordinators
> to purchase WW product at cost from WW, then sell it and ship it at no
> profit to Princes running local tournaments. If that Prince posts an
> event report to the WW forums and/or the newsgroup and submits the
> Archon file to Robyn, then he/she is allowed to order another
> tournament kit. If you don't post a report and don't submit the
> Archon, then you're cut off. The first problem with this plan is
> trusting the NC. WW is already doing this with the Hispanic Conclave,
> so they're trusting Gines (and Gines has to answer to the Hispanic
> Conclave, which pays membership dues), so presumably WW can trust
> other NCs. Another problem (and I'm confused as to how the Hispanic
> Conclave resolves this problem) is that the Prince is effectively
> selling product at someone's store (if the event is held at a store).
> I don't know if game store would go for that. It's up to the Prince
> to resolve that himself/herself, I guess.
Seems like a good idea. vtes.de would also volunteer to handle those
products for Europe, since it doesn´t seem a viable way for me to let
NCs from Europe order 1-2 boxes from the U.S, shipping costs and time,
customs and VAT can be a pain. Since we allready handle prize support
for qualifiers and national events we are in constant contact with the
NCs and other organizers so that wouldn´t bother us much.
We just need to find an easy system (e.g a website where I can log in)
for us (and others) to see if a person is still entitled to this stuff.
--
Johannes Walch
Johannes Walch
I disagree. I think we should try to separate V:TES from the other
product lines as much as possible. It has been a successfull CCG for
many years and it can survive on it´s own. Making it dependent on some
other stuff (that will never happen anyway) would mean to deliberately
weaken the position of V:TES.
--
Johannes Walch
Tetragrammaton
The point isn't to make it dependent to some other line -
But it's a fact that it draws *all* of its elements from the rpg
WoD 1.0 canon and that (at least here in italy) vtes managed to get
a *lot* of players drawing from the rpg enthusiast base.
So, as long as an rpg line is kept, vtes has just more chanche to
enlarge - as the WoD 1.0 fades over the years, being abandoned
as rpg line, vtes is loosing its potential- this is a fact also.
On the other side, imho it was just plain wrong (as well as a big mistake)
by WW to abandon an unique rpg setting such as wod 1.0, that succeded
in creating an universe of its own over so many7 years, gathering so many
players
from all around the world.
It's as if at TSR they would abandon the forgotten realms setting, mystara,
or whatever
succesful setting they created over the years - i really hope at WW there
will be someone
that will consider to rise again the classic WoD line - vtes would benefit a
lot from that.
best
Emiliano
Jeroen
> Johannes Walch wrote:
> > Tetragrammaton schrieb:
You do realise that that's never going to happen? I must say, i find
Requiem a much better game(*), but is doesn't really have the complete
'mood' of the OWOD.
(*) except for the gun rules, they suck. ;)
Salem
> But guys, why are we bothering to say anything? Prize support is a
> myth in many places, and play testing is seemingly restricted to the
> US only, never mind that there are more players in the EU.
We playtested a bunch of sets here in my playgroup in Canberra,
Australia. (Well, whatever subset of cards for each set we were given...).
It's not just a US thing.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'yahoo' to email)
atomweaver
@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> I, like, totally posted about it hours ago. ;)
>
Yaah, I saw that well after the post. Dunno why your message didn't hit my
ng server earlier... *shrug*
DZ
AW
OrgPlay
> To whom it may concern,
>
> Do you think you could put mentions of the Lords of the Night
> preview page on the main White Wolf website page and the main V:TES
> website page? Do you think you could send a message to the Princes
> forum about how one runs a release event? 3 weeks to go...
>
> - Ben Peal, US National Coordinator
Sorry guys, I've been running around at shows and some things slipped.
I'm all caught up now.
I'm investigating a new Conclave solution that should be much much
better. The NAC reminder and banner plus LotN preview and such are
plastered on the WW/VTES page. The announcements for next year's EC
and NAC are forthcoming.
I'm here, I care, and I'm not going anywhere.
Working hard for you,
Oscar Garza
XZealot
You better be going to Los Angeles. >:P
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
OrgPlay
Monday to Monday.
oscar
Tetragrammaton
> On 12 sep, 10:24, "Tetragrammaton" <nos...@none.com> wrote:
>> Johannes Walch wrote:
>>> Tetragrammaton schrieb:
>> there will be someone
>> that will consider to rise again the classic WoD line - vtes would
>> benefit a lot from that.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Emiliano-
>
> You do realise that that's never going to happen?
Well, i said i "hope" for a reason, not "i bet on that..."
Anyway, lot of people were pretty sure vtes would have died
in the wotc days, after many years without no new sets, but things
happened.
I think it would never be too late to raise again a classic WoD
line as rpg, yes, as it has been not too late to buy back vtes,
raising it from the grave, for ww after 5 years with no new cards printed.
>I must say, i find
> Requiem a much better game(*), but is doesn't really have the complete
> 'mood' of the OWOD.
Question of personal taste, sure - honestly, as many other wod 1.0 fan,
i complete disklike the new requiem setting, but that isn't so important.
Actually they could even co-exist as separate line products, given the
difference in the
mood of the two canon (biblical-worldwide-spread-supernatural
communities of vampires background for 1.0, local-groups of vampires
in 2.0).
best
Emiliano
Clément
> I must say, i find Requiem a much better game(*),
> but is doesn't really have the complete
> 'mood' of the OWOD.
It is a much better game. People often let the fact that they miss the
oWoD setting affect their perception of the Requiem's quality as a
game. In fact, three years after Gehenna I still see people criticize
the nWoD without even taking a good look at it.
I'd say the mood in the nWoD is also better, but I suspect you are
probably talking more about the setting and the backstory here. And
yes, that's the main issue, IMHO. It would take years for players to
become attached to the nWoD stories and characters. Since the nWoD is
not metaplot-oriented as the old one, I doubt it will ever happen.
> (*) except for the gun rules, they suck. ;)
What about them that you don't like?
Best regards,
Luiz Mello