TWD and Report of the Portuguese Continental Qualifier 2009
Brum
traditionally the biggest of the year. This year wad no exception.
Good prizes, nice atmosphere and great games made the day.
Positive highlights: the new players that came from Leiria and
Coimbra, the sudden appearance of Paolo Pasqualin and the general
level of play.
Another excellent aspect of the tournament was that 2 players that
actually want to go to Palma de Maiorca, managed to qualify.
For the first time solo (but with great help from the other two
Primogen of Lisbon) I organized this tournament in the IST University,
as usual in the Lisbon area.
On the first round some of the more experienced players took the upper
hand and managed TW.
Eliseu with his Tup Dogs; Melkor with Imbued; Nuno Moure with
Harbingers of Skull; Bruno Robalo with Dmitra and Ishtarri friends;
and Carlos Marques with Follower's of Set bleed n' vote.
On round two Eduardo started his path to the Final that he would
eventually win. Bruno Robalo was the only player that had got a TW in
the previous round and repeated the feat.
Players that got their first TW were Igor Pereira with Toreador Aching
Beauty; André Catarino with Ventrue tap n' bleed; Paolo Pasqualin with
Imbued and Ricardo Portela with Renegade Garous.
The third round had special interest since only one player had 2 TW
and 10 players had 1. It was very interesting for a the audience (me)
to observe. One table had 3 players with 1 TW from previous rounds,
for instance.
There were 3 championships inside this Tournament: reaching the Final
would give a player a minimum of 11 boosters, doing Top 8 would
qualify a player to Palma de Maiorca and doing Top 13 would give a
player the event's T-shirt and a huge pack of promo cards.
In the end the TWs went for Teresa Neves with a version of TTC
Master's Dominate Setite Mummies, for Melkor and for one of the new
players (well done!), Patrick Gordo with BLA.
Two tables timed out, so the finalists were chosen with the
calculation of VP's and even TP's.
For the Final we had:
Bruno Robalo (Ishtarri Vote w/ Dmitra)
Melkor (Imbued)
Eduardo Mateus (Winning Player - !Malk Stealth n' Bleed w/ tricks)
Paolo Pasqualin (Imbued)
Ricardo Portela (Gangrel Renegade Garous)
The match started at a slow pace with Bruno's Ishtarri facing constant
block from Imbueds and Werewolfs. Without much stealth he didn't have
the chance to grow. Eduardo's Bleeding Malks had some issues due to
being stuck between two imbued decks and the fact that Unmasking was
helping everybody but himself and Bruno.
Still, the Imbueds were slowing down and the players with vampires
managed to stay for the last battle that would decide the victor.
I didn't see how the Garous were ousted, but in the mano-a-mano, Bruno
did a mistake and Eduardo (ever opportunistic) took the day.
I would like to thank all the players for attending, my fellow
Primogen for helping out, the NEIIST group for facilitating the
reservation of the room, Phillip and Johannes for the Prize Support
and our Prince Ricardo Marta for posting the results.
Congratulations to Eduardo for another big win. Too bad he's not going
to Palma de Maiorca.
Qualified Players:
Eduardo Mateus
Bruno Robalo
Melkor Florindo
Paolo Pasqualin
Ricardo Portela
André Catarino
Igor Pereira
Nuno Moure
Tiago Brum (Organizer)
Date: 26th of September, 2009
Place: IST University, Lisboa, Portugal
Event: Portuguese Continental Qualifier 2009
Number of Players: 29
TWD: Recurring Madness
By: Eduardo Mateus
Crypt [13 vampires] Capacity min: 2 max: 7 average: 4,76
------------------------------------------------------------
2x Korah 7 ani AUS DEM OBF Sabbat Priscus Malkavian Antitribu:2
2x Dolphin Black 6 AUS DEM OBF Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:2
1x Artemis 6 aus for DEM OBF Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:2
1x General Perfidio Díos 5 obf dem AUS Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:3
1x Uncle George 5 aus dom obf DEM Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:3
1x Roger Farnsworth 4 aus OBF Sabbat Black Hand Malkavian Antitribu:3
1x Idalia, Prophet of Guadalajara 4 dem AUS Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:
2
1x Claven 4 aus dem obf Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:2
1x Midget 3 obf pre DEM Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:3
1x Yorik 3 dem obf Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:2
1x Boy Toy 2 dem Sabbat Malkavian Antitribu:2
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Master [21]
1x The Coven
2x Wash
3x Vessel
2x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x The Barrens
1x The Admonitions
6x Ashur Tablets
1x Jake Washington
1x Secure Haven
1x Anarch Troublemaker
1x Archon Investigation
1x Direct Intervention
Actions [18]
1x Madman’s Quill
11x Kindred Spirits
6x Sybil’s Tongue
Action Modifiers [28]
4x Elder Impersonation
4x Lost in Crowds
4x Faceless Night
3x Spying Mission
3x Cloak the Gathering
2x Hide the Mind
8x Confusion
Combo [5]
3x Swallowed by the Night
2x Touch of Clarity
Reaction [18]
5x On the Qui Vive
1x Delaying Tactics
6x Telepathic Misdirection
3x Wrong and Crosswise
3x Confusion of the Eye
Cheers,
Tiago Brum, Primogen of the Domain Lisboa
Brum
> The third round had special interest since only one player had 2 TW
> and 10 players had 1. It was very interesting for a the audience (me)
> to observe. One table had 3 players with 1 TW from previous rounds,
> for instance.
> There were 3 championships inside this Tournament: reaching the Final
> would give a player a minimum of 11 boosters, doing Top 8 would
> qualify a player to Palma de Maiorca and doing Top 13 would give a
> player the event's T-shirt and a huge pack of promo cards.
> In the end the TWs went for Teresa Neves with a version of TTC
> Master's Dominate Setite Mummies, for Melkor and for one of the new
> players (well done!), Patrick Gordo with BLA.
I was going to check the decklists and write what deck Patrick was
playing. Forgot to do so before posting. The "BLA" is a marker I put
on texts so later I can put the correct names, dates, events, etc.
My appologies to Patrick.
Right now I don't have the deck he was using, but I'll post the name
tomorrow.
brandonsantacruz
Wow, way to go winning the final despite having the wrong meta-gaming
cards in many cases for your match-up(i.e. Imbued don't vote, block
using auspex, or deflect, nor do they play blood doll)!
Brandon
Drain
It was old-school Celerity-Guns. Worked pretty damn slick, too.
Drain
>
> - Mostrar texto citado -
Yes, I kept thinking all day long that I could have dropped a copy of
The Uncoiling in there.
But, on the other hand, my original rationale sort of stood: Imbued
can counter most strategies but not Stealth-Bleed (I actually ousted
not just the Imbued player in front of me but also ended up
backousting the other one at my back).
Drain
Kevin M.
> But, on the other hand, my original rationale sort of stood: Imbued
> can counter most strategies but not Stealth-Bleed (I actually ousted
> not just the Imbued player in front of me but also ended up
> backousting the other one at my back).
Imbued seem to have three weaknesses that I can see, in this order:
1. Stealth-vote, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
2. Stealth-bleed, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
3. Serious (multi-striking?) combat.
Wacky anti-ally tech could compromise a 4th, although you don't
see a Sebastian Goulet deck hit the table that often. :)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Janne Hägglund
> Drain wrote:
> > But, on the other hand, my original rationale sort of stood: Imbued
> > can counter most strategies but not Stealth-Bleed (I actually ousted
> > not just the Imbued player in front of me but also ended up
> > backousting the other one at my back).
>
> Imbued seem to have three weaknesses that I can see, in this order:
>
> 1. Stealth-vote, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
Bonus style points will be awarded for Ancient Influence.
> 2. Stealth-bleed, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
>
> 3. Serious (multi-striking?) combat.
If you want to kill the Imbued, you need combat that does a lot of normal
damage. Celerity + guns qualifies, and so does good old Torn Signpost +
Immortal Grapple combat. The Imbued laugh at aggravated damage.
And there's one major counter more:
4. Intercept. If you can manage 2 intercept consistetly, the Imbued are
screwed. They regenerate their pseudostealth, but the price they pay is
that they really can't get above 1 stealth with -1 intercept. And they
are not so good at bruising their actions through ("potence stealth").
(One exception came to mind: they can acquire hideous weapons with Angel
of Berlin, which cannot be blocked.)
> Wacky anti-ally tech could compromise a 4th, although you don't
> see a Sebastian Goulet deck hit the table that often. :)
The problem with wacky anti-ally tech is, of course: what are you going to do
if there are no allies around? Stealth bleed, stealth vote, massive damage
combat and intercept still work in that situation.
HG
orianice
> In the end the TWs went for Teresa Neves with a version ofTTC
> Master's Dominate Setite Mummies,
can you give me Teresa's adress so I can send my invoice to her? ^^
more seriously though, can you give me more details about the deck she
was playing, eventually with decklist
thx a lot
TTC
Drain
I'd actually place "Wacky anti-ally tech" as their number 1
weakness... it's just that it is pretty rare for Goulet or Stanislava
to cross paths with the golden boys.
Combat vs. Imbued, given the premise of an omnipresent Jennie Horne,
should always come last, always.
Paolo's (prey) Deck used an ungodly amount of Concealed Flash
Grenades, which can shut down a player for a turn, intercept or no
intercept. Melkor's (predator) went for a more combat-oriented
approach, mainly Magnum's and Target: Vitals. Nasty business, mainly
due to the extremely short deployment time, another factor to consider
when you intend to block Imbued.
Drain
suoli
> Combat vs. Imbued, given the premise of an omnipresent Jennie Horne,
> should always come last, always.
Seconded. Sending an Imbued to the hospital has very little impact as
long as Jennie is on the table. Jennie + three other guys means 4
Convictions each turn which translates into 2 guys to throw under the
bus each turn, with no permanent damage done. It gets even worse when
you factor in Angelic Deer Rifles and whatnot.
Brum
Teresa's deck was your "Really guys, this is a Spell of Life deck",
with tweaks of my own. No Spell of Life, since probably only Eduardo,
me and Bruno Robalo would fall for that bluff at first sight. We are
the players that are more aware of what's going on in VtES outside of
Portugal and we're probably the most experienced ones.
So no need for those slots.
I played Saturday with that deck, and boy that's fun! Too bad it's
rare to find a table without combat here.
Major diferences are more misdirections, 2 Far Masteries, the 2 Events
(priceless) and Tutu. With Unmasking he can bleed and untap to block.
And there's always the "Tutu bleeds. Tutu untaps. Tutu calls Ossian."
Vampire (12) [Min: 17 Max: 27 Avg: 5,50]
1 Abdelsobek for nec obf pre ser 5 Independent
1 Ahmose Chambers obf ser 3 Independent.
3 Amenophobis dom pre OBF SER 7 Camarilla primogen
3 Black Lotus aus obf ser DOM 5 Sabbat.
3 Halim Bey obf tha DOM SER 6 Independent
1 Robin Withers dom obf pre 4 Camarilla.
Master (11)
1 Anarch Troublemaker
2 Dominate [dom]
1 Jake Washington (Hunter)
3 Misdirection
1 Opium Den Follower of Set
1 Pentex(TM) Subversion
2 Perfectionist
Event (2)
1 FBI Special Affairs Division
1 Unmasking, The
Action (12)
2 Far Mastery Dominate
10 Govern the Unaligned Dominate
Ally (7)
1 Amam the Devourer (Bane Mummy) Follower of Set
1 Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
1 Nephren-Ka Follower of Set
1 Ossian
2 Qetu the Evil Doer (Bane Mummy) Follower of Set
1 Tutu the Doubly Evil One (Bane Mummy) Follower of Set
Action Modifier (28)
3 Cloak the Gathering Obfuscate
7 Conditioning Dominate
4 Faceless Night Obfuscate
5 Lost in Crowds Obfuscate
4 Seduction Dominate
2 Spying Mission Obfuscate
3 Veil the Legions Obfuscate
Action Modifier/Combat (5)
2 Form of the Serpent Serpentis
3 Swallowed by the Night Obfuscate
Reaction (8)
7 Deflection Dominate
1 Delaying Tactics
orianice
glad to see some people tried it in tournament :)
Peter D Bakija
> (One exception came to mind: they can acquire hideous weapons with Angel
> of Berlin, which cannot be blocked.)
I'll point out that, really, what makes the Imbued a huge drag in
combat these days is the disguised flash grenades.
> The problem with wacky anti-ally tech is, of course: what are you going to do
> if there are no allies around? Stealth bleed, stealth vote, massive damage
> combat and intercept still work in that situation.
To be fair, there are a lot more reasonably flexible anti-ally cards
that double as something else in circulation these days. And then
there is always Entrancement. I mean, yeah, you aren't likely to see a
lot of anti-ally specific tech or anything (although I can't remember
the last time I saw a DOM deck that didn't have a Far Mastery in it),
but cards like Entrancement show up all the time these days. I lose
more Garou that way...
-Peter
Matthew T. Morgan
> Imbued seem to have three weaknesses that I can see, in this order:
>
> 1. Stealth-vote, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
If you can do this reliably, then yes, it's pretty solid. If you can do
it a couple of times and start getting blocked after that, not so good.
Stealth permanents (Monestary of Shadows, Creepshow Casino, etc.) can help
a lot. The good thing is that you can almost always count how much
stealth you're going to need. The only real variables are Angel of Berlin
for a Sport Bike or DI/Determine.
> 2. Stealth-bleed, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
See above.
> 3. Serious (multi-striking?) combat.
This was covered already. Unless you've got a good way to finish the job,
it's meaningless.
And from HG's post:
> 4. Intercept.
Totally depends on the deck. There are some very good Imbued decks that
run only on Convictions and Flash Grenades. These decks don't care if you
have intercept. The only time intercept is really going to hurt is if
it's a deck that depends on getting powers out. Powers aren't the
strongest thing about Imbued.
Perhaps a good example of the above was the Origins '08 qualifier final.
The first 90 minutes of the game was a tense stealth/intercept battle as
Ben Peal almost single-handedly shut down two vote decks (mine and David
Litwin's) with his Waters of Duat Anima Gathering deck. Sitting ahead of
Ben, I barely had enough stealth to finally get a vote through to oust my
prey. After that, neither David nor I could do anything useful and we
both died.
Then the last five minutes of the game was John Newquist completely
crushing Ben with his Imbued/Flash Grenade deck. He totally didn't care
about intercept, combat, anything. He was totally set up and just needed
to tap out bleeding a couple of turns to get the win.
Matt Morgan
witness1
> Drain wrote:
> > But, on the other hand, my original rationale sort of stood: Imbued
> > can counter most strategies but not Stealth-Bleed (I actually ousted
> > not just the Imbued player in front of me but also ended up
> > backousting the other one at my back).
>
> Imbued seem to have three weaknesses that I can see, in this order:
>
> 1. Stealth-vote, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
>
> 2. Stealth-bleed, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
>
> 3. Serious (multi-striking?) combat.
>
> Wacky anti-ally tech could compromise a 4th, although you don't
> see a Sebastian Goulet deck hit the table that often. :)
The weakness of the imbued out of the box is lack of untap. Angel of
Berlin is great but a MOOT and OTQV sucks. Good imbued decks will tend
to rely on Vigilance and/or Flash Grenade as a result.
Vigilance requires Judgment which enables Discern. Discern + Unmasking
+ Second Sight (with maybe Carlton and some media location backup)
handles stealth-lite decks. No-block handles stealth-heavy decks. The
trick (and it's often a hard one) is figuring out what you're up
against before you commit.
Flash Grenade handles most forms of combat, CEL-guns being the notable
exception. Terror Frenzy can also work, but it's far less common.
Potence only works if you can finish the job, otherwise you're just
letting me cycle my Flash Grenades into play for use when you run out
of grapple. Not to mention that you can't take advantage of
Dragonbound et al.
The best ways to shut down an imbued deck are the things they just
can't do anything about. Anarch Revolt, Smiling Jack, Famous Vampire
In Torpor, etc. Or get 3 VP before they oust you, that works too.
-witness1
Janne Hägglund
> On Oct 19, 10:06 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
> > Drain wrote:
> > > But, on the other hand, my original rationale sort of stood: Imbued
> > > can counter most strategies but not Stealth-Bleed (I actually ousted
> > > not just the Imbued player in front of me but also ended up
> > > backousting the other one at my back).
> >
> > Imbued seem to have three weaknesses that I can see, in this order:
> >
> > 1. Stealth-vote, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
> >
> > 2. Stealth-bleed, if you can get above 2 (3?) stealth.
> >
> > 3. Serious (multi-striking?) combat.
> >
> > Wacky anti-ally tech could compromise a 4th, although you don't
> > see a Sebastian Goulet deck hit the table that often. :)
>
> The weakness of the imbued out of the box is lack of untap. Angel of
> Berlin is great but a MOOT and OTQV sucks. Good imbued decks will tend
> to rely on Vigilance and/or Flash Grenade as a result.
A "MOOT"? What's that?
HG
witness1
Matthew T. Morgan
>> A "MOOT"? �What's that? �
>
> Master Out Of Turn
Also a common LSJ response.
Drain
>
> - Mostrar texto citado -
Mr.Newquist is completely on the money here. I agree on every count.
Also, of potential academic interest, my personal experience regarding
the Ashur Tablets that I used for the first time in a deck echoes that
of senhor Matt Morgan during the NAC: they proved crucial in one round
(which I won), were good in another and weren't a factor in the other
two tables. Overall, I was pretty unimpressed, but then again my deck
was only half-way tailored for them.
Drain
LSJ
I never yell "moot".
Brum
One think I wonder is: if you guys usually team up against the Imbued
in the table?
I ask this because, obvious as it may seem, it's rear to see that kind
of coordination here on a VtES table.
It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
agains a bigger threat.
Tiago
brandonsantacruz
> in the table?
> I ask this because, obvious as it may seem, it's rear to see that kind
> of coordination here on a VtES table.
> It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
> agains a bigger threat.
>
> Tiago
From my limited experience against imbued, that's what a table should
do. If you can handle tough opponents that don't have to play many
cards to be powerful, good luck!
Brandon
(not horribly offended that Portugal's thread was "jacked")
Kevin M.
I didn't hijack the thread, I changed the topic. Not the same thing.
I hope that what Lasombra wanted wasn't for posters
to always create a BRAND-NEW thread, as that isn't
useful or desirable in many circumstances.
Drain
>
> - Mostrar texto citado -
Rational Thread-jacking is something I see as generally productive and
highly desirable.
No reason for anyone to feel offended by that. :-)
Drain
Matthew T. Morgan
> One think I wonder is: if you guys usually team up against the Imbued
> in the table?
> I ask this because, obvious as it may seem, it's rear to see that kind
> of coordination here on a VtES table.
> It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
> agains a bigger threat.
For me the only important question there is will teaming up against the
Imbued (or any other "table threat") improve my chances of winning or
earning VPs? If not, what do I care?
In the example I gave, I could've probably nuked my Imbued grandprey from
orbit and he wouldn't have won the table. What of it? He never hindered
my progress. I died to 5 permanent intercept and a pile of stealthed
bleeds for 1 from my predator. Killing the Imbued would've made no sense.
Matt Morgan
TTC
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Brum wrote:
> > One think I wonder is: if you guys usually team up against the Imbued
> > in the table?
> > I ask this because, obvious as it may seem, it's rear to see that kind
> > of coordination here on a VtES table.
> > It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
> > agains a bigger threat.
>
> For me the only important question there is will teaming up against the
> Imbued (or any other "table threat") improve my chances of winning or
> earning VPs? If not, what do I care?
>
>
a very sensed sentence every Jyhad school should teach :-)
TTC
Drain
Quite so.
I think Brum's comment is aimed at mostly Gehenna-based Imbued decks,
though. We've had a bit of a bad experience with one of these at a
recent tournament (which turned out to be based on an illegal premise,
since it used the second DPA from PB:LA to put two events in play per
turn and no one knew better).
Drain
Johannes Walch
Yeah, I had quite a few times the people who thought "we must gang up on
the Imbued" and by doing so just made another play win. What do you care
who wins as long as it isn�t you.
bwross
> It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
> agains a bigger threat.
I've always assumed that they're an operation by the Progenitors, who
genetically engineered them to have abilities and directs them via the
Hunter-Net (as well as keeping them hopped up on drugs). To me, their
sourcebook just read more like they were pawns of a sinister force
than the exalted of some Celestine.
Brent Ross
witness1
> On 21 Out, 14:47, TTC <oriangiss...@aliceadsl.fr> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 21 oct, 15:27, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 20 Oct 2009, Brum wrote:
> > > > One think I wonder is: if you guys usually team up against the Imbued
> > > > in the table?
> > > > I ask this because, obvious as it may seem, it's rear to see that kind
> > > > of coordination here on a VtES table.
> > > > It always strikes me as that was their porpose. To unite the Kindred
> > > > agains a bigger threat.
>
> > > For me the only important question there is will teaming up against the
> > > Imbued (or any other "table threat") improve my chances of winning or
> > > earning VPs? If not, what do I care?
>
> > > Matt Morgan
>
> > a very sensed sentence every Jyhad school should teach :-)
>
> > TTC
>
> Quite so.
>
> I think Brum's comment is aimed at mostly Gehenna-based Imbued decks,
> though.
It's quite possible for a Gehenna deck to be debilitating to all
players to a point where each opponent reasonably believes that
removing the events will give them a better shot at winning and/or
earning VPs.
In my experience, this is a self-correcting problem. It's a bad idea
for a deck with limited untap and pool gain to deliberately make
enemies of everyone at the table.
-witness1
Drain
>
> - Mostrar texto citado -
Not strictly my view on the subject.
On the subject of Gehennas, if a player thinks that he can just unload
permanent red cards on the table and screw with my game, possibly
depriving me of the win, I am most definitely not going to lay back
and avert punitive action. No, I will make sure that that player
understands that bringing "table decay" tech will get him less VPs as
opposed to more. If he persists, he gets more of the same treatment.
If he desists, we're cool.
It's when someone breaks ranks and tries to make a grab for the VP
that such decks get the leeway that they need: people spending blood,
turns and resources on something other than removing the offending
events.
Still, as I pointed out before, this is based on my experiences with a
highly efficient (and illegal) "I Fortschritt Wormwood on turn two and
lay down the smack from thereupon, with vamps losing 2 capacity per
table turn". The legalized version is probably a lot more tame despite
working on the same principle.
Drain
Brum
>
> - Mostrar texto citado -
More or less. I've met Imbued more times then that. Gehenna based and
non Gehenna based, both on friendlies and Tournaments.
My point is, like stated here by someone else, Imbued doesn't require
many cards to win. And there are many things that "Vampire" decks use
that don't work agains Imbued.
Most Imbued decks I've came across are the threat that will win the
table, if players just try to go for the immediate VP.
Thus, my question.
It's obvious that VtES isn't charity, so one must think when to give
someone else a VP.
I'm just saying that, to some extent, Imbued can be harder to stop
then Malk94 with 3 Vampires and a cadaverous Prey, therefore in need
of more union.
When they start affecting the table, they affect everybody, no just
Prey/Predator.
About the changing of the Thread... First off I'm sure there is
somewhere in this Newsgroup, another thread with the same subject.
Secondly it really should be up to the person that starts the Thread.
Maybe people that would like to discuss the Tournament or related
decks, might feel discouraged to do so. Maybe not.
Frankly I'm interested in this new subject and really don't mind, but
I would prefer to have things separated.
Cheers,
Tiago
Meej
> My point is, like stated here by someone else, Imbued doesn't require
> many cards to win.
Ummm... that's only true if you let them get their permanents
(laptops, powers, whatever) into play. Imbued don't *have* "surprise"
effects to use, really. Everything they can do is right there on the
table, 90% of the time. (Concealed Flash Grenades aside.)
> And there are many things that "Vampire" decks use
> that don't work agains Imbued.
True. And there are also many things Vampire decks use that slaughter
Imbued outright (see: Smiling Jack, Ancient Influence, votes in
general, etc.)
> Most Imbued decks I've came across are the threat that will win the
> table, if players just try to go for the immediate VP.
Seriously? A deck that's able to generate 2+ stealth, 2+ intercept,
or decent combat reliably will trounce an Imbued deck fairly
frequently. And the Imbued take a while to get moving.
> When they start affecting the table, they affect everybody, no just
> Prey/Predator.
Ah. That's the Gehenna Events, not the Imbued. They're not
synonymous. And if you think the one only functions with the other,
there are quite a few weenie-vampire Gehenna decks that disabuse that
notion.
- D.J.
librarian
Agreed, best Event deck I have seen is Robb Dudek's Black Hand Event
deck, that only uses black hand tech; events are Slow Withering and Veil
of Darkness. Brutal. It brought the hate, but not the knee-jerk type
that Imbued do.
best -
chris
Matthew T. Morgan
> Ummm... that's only true if you let them get their permanents
> (laptops, powers, whatever) into play. Imbued don't *have* "surprise"
> effects to use, really. Everything they can do is right there on the
> table, 90% of the time. (Concealed Flash Grenades aside.)
This doesn't match my experience at all. You can't (short of ashheap
milling) stop Imbued from getting Convictions. Convictions are some of
the best minion cards in the game, just because you keep getting them over
and over. Imbued can do quite well with just Convictions and master
cards.
> True. And there are also many things Vampire decks use that slaughter
> Imbued outright (see: Smiling Jack, Ancient Influence, votes in
> general, etc.)
Most of these things are manageable. Contest Smiling Jack, DI/Determine
Ancient Influence, etc.
> Seriously? A deck that's able to generate 2+ stealth, 2+ intercept,
> or decent combat reliably will trounce an Imbued deck fairly
> frequently. And the Imbued take a while to get moving.
This doesn't match my experience either. Again, I don't see Imbued as
troubled by reliable +2 intercept as, say, many vote decks and some
breeders. I've built Imbued decks that don't care about getting blocked.
I've built Imbued decks that can come up with a lot more than +2 intercept
on short notice. All Imbued decks I've played handle combat pretty well.
As for them being slow, I don't know why you'd think this. They can be
played that way and I'll often prefer to do so, but they cost 4 or 5 pool
usually and are better than most 4 or 5 cap vampires. Imbued decks should
be as fast or faster than vampire decks.
>> When they start affecting the table, they affect everybody, no just
>> Prey/Predator.
>
> Ah. That's the Gehenna Events, not the Imbued. They're not
> synonymous. And if you think the one only functions with the other,
> there are quite a few weenie-vampire Gehenna decks that disabuse that
> notion.
No argument here.
Matt Morgan
LSJ
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Meej wrote:
>
>> Ummm... that's only true if you let them get their permanents
>> (laptops, powers, whatever) into play. Imbued don't *have* "surprise"
>> effects to use, really. Everything they can do is right there on the
>> table, 90% of the time. (Concealed Flash Grenades aside.)
>
> This doesn't match my experience at all. You can't (short of ashheap
> milling) stop Imbued from getting Convictions. Convictions are some of
> the best minion cards in the game, just because you keep getting them
> over and over. Imbued can do quite well with just Convictions and
> master cards.
Nit: Convictions are not minion cards.
Five main types of cards:
Conviction cards (played in the untap phase)
Master cards (played in the master phase)
Minion cards (played in the minion phase)
Crypt cards (played in the influence phase)
Event cards (played in the discard phase)
Brum
I have to go with Matt on this one.
It's true that Gehennas are strong by themselves, but with Imbued they
are much stronger than with Vampires.
If you're using Vampires there are some events that hurt you as well.
Only one really hurts the Imbued and it's used very rarelly.
You cannot stop Convictions from being used. In conjuction with
massive use of Gehennas there is very little players can do. And that
will hurt everybody, but the Imbued.
It's so ridiculous that Imbued players don't need hand size. They play
most things from the Ash Heap or deck. Loosing hand size is the major
disavantage of using Gehenna events. Conviction mechanics makes that
disavantage dissapear.
All Imbued decks have things to deal well against what vampires do.
Most vampire decks need to go around the bush to use things that hurt
Imbued and that is rather pointless, because 1- you don't find imbued
in every table, 2- Even if you do, and you can put those slots in your
deck for good use, guess what? YOU can't counter their strong points,
but THEY can very well defend against yours.
The best way to destroy them is cross table hate. But, as was
mentioned before that's giving someone a VP, thus unbalacing the
table. Not doing anything is also unbalacing.
Therefore, just by existing, Imbued unbalace the table.
So does strong Stealth N Bleed with a weak Prey. But to that, there
are better ways to deal with and bring back balance to the Force.
Tiago
Matthew T. Morgan
> Therefore, just by existing, Imbued unbalace the table.
I wouldn't go that far. There are many decks that are bad matchups for
Imbued, it's true, but some handle them fine. I think the mistake some
players make is to go "AAAHHH! I can't play Temptation on them!!!" and
basically panic. Instead of that, what you have to do is play on their
weaknesses.
Don't get me wrong. I used to really love playing the Imbued. The only
reason I stopped is because of my quest to win with every clan. Until
Jeff starts putting Imbued in by Creed in the TWDA, I won't be playing
them seriously. To beat Imbued, you have to play a little differently.
So here are some suggestions on how to do that.
* Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now. For example, if
there are four Imbued on the table and two have Judgment, that deck can
bleed for at least 11, even if there currently isn't a Laptop in play and
none of them have Strikes. It can come together in a single turn. I used
to hide my Strikes in my ashheap (well, not intentionally conceal them,
but avoid drawing attention to them) and somebody would ask how many of my
guys had strikes. I'd scratch my head, look through piles of cards for
just a quick moment and announce "none." Of course, next turn they'd all
have Strikes.
* Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now. For example, if you
try to bleed and play Lost in Crowds, your only stealth card, only to get
blocked by The Unmasking + Discern when there's an untapped KRCG and an
unburned Second Sight, you haven't played very well. You can count how
much stealth you need. Don't hope to top-deck three stealth cards or just
go in blindly.
* Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now. Many Imbued decks
run Sudden and/or DI and recycle them with Anthelios and Parthenon. With
Angel of Berlin in the mix, they tend to be high on OOT masters. Has the
Imbued deck played an OOT already or can he still Sudden your Jack or DI
your Forgotten Labyrinth? If you don't know instantly, shame on you!
* Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now! That Ivory Bow will
hit you for 2 agg. You don't want to block with Cailean counting on your
Guardian Angel to save you. Don't do that! Jack Harmon gets a maneuver.
Jennie gets guys out of incap. Travis makes pool. You need to know this
stuff!
* Tap them out! Anarch Troublemaker doesn't work, but Majesty can do okay
(they often don't want to burn Reacts for fear you'll have Entrancement)
and Earth Meld is even better. But be smart about it. Using Champion,
for example, doesn't tap an Imbued. I once watched a game where a
Stanislava deck would bleed with Stanislava first every turn, get
Champion'd, then bleed with other minions. So sad....
* Play into the table hate. Not only do a lot of people hate facing
Imbued, but Imbued tend not to be very good cross-table buddies. I know
people used to complain bitterly when I played them because I wouldn't do
anything to my prey for ages, then I'd just clean up once I could bleed
for 20 every turn, so basically it's the worst of both worlds - your
predator has no predator, but if somehow you survive that, he suddenly
does and you both die fast.
* Finish the Imbued decisively. You know how much pool they have. You
know how many guys they has out and whether they're untapped and how much
intercept they can have. You can make a pretty good guess to how many
untaps they can manage. Use this information to build the perfect ousting
hand.
* Be quick about it! Imbued decks are sometimes very slow or can slow
down the table (especially when there are players present who still
haven't learned what the cards do). The clock is your enemy. Beat it,
even if the cost is losing to a fellow methuselah. Losing to the clock is
worse.
* Keep the pressure up if it looks like they're going to get too many VPs.
Imbued don't get to wake up a whole lot, so unless you're facing a deck
that is successfully pulling off a Darby Dance, it'll typically have to
tap out when it's in the lunging phase. By keeping pressure high, you can
make it a lot harder for that deck to try to lunge.
* Play possum if the deck seems too defensive or isn't going forward much.
If you can get him to tap a bunch on dumb actions, then bounce a bleed or
two into him, you should be able to finish him, if you've got sufficient
payload on hand (which is the other thing you'd need to be working on).
I could probably come up with more, but it's been a while. I think
Imbued, crafted carefully and played well, are still one of the strongest
archetypes, but they are not unbeatable and don't even have to be
miserable to play against or at least won't tend to be any worse than
weenie AUS.
Matt Morgan
witness1
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2009, Brum wrote:
> * Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now.
This is a really big one. At Origins '08, I casually mentioned to my
predator in round 2 that one of the biggest strengths of the imbued
was that nobody really knows what they're capable of. He kind of
chuckled, mentioned that he'd played a few imbued decks and had a
pretty good idea.
Later in the game, he was wondered aloud why none of his big bleeds
had been bounced with Determine, and I pointed out that none of my
minions had the necessary skill! (There were no Determines in the
deck).
Lesson: despite what you read on the intarwebs, don't assume all
imbued decks are alike! Learn how to predict what's coming depending
on which minions enter play.
> * Tap them out! Anarch Troublemaker doesn't work, but Majesty can do okay
> (they often don't want to burn Reacts for fear you'll have Entrancement)
> and Earth Meld is even better. But be smart about it. Using Champion,
> for example, doesn't tap an Imbued. I once watched a game where a
> Stanislava deck would bleed with Stanislava first every turn, get
> Champion'd, then bleed with other minions. So sad....
Warning: do not try Majesty or Earth Meld against Flash Grenade. Freak
Drive still works fine, though - not long ago I had a predator play a
Majesty (in order to make me throw the Grenade) followed immediately
by a Freak Drive so he could get another action!
> * Finish the Imbued decisively. You know how much pool they have. You
> know how many guys they has out and whether they're untapped and how much
> intercept they can have. You can make a pretty good guess to how many
> untaps they can manage. Use this information to build the perfect ousting
> hand.
This is also very important. Keep up some pressure (or else they'll
just build up until they're unstoppable), but don't waste your
resources. Convictions grow back; your library doesn't.
> * Keep the pressure up if it looks like they're going to get too many VPs.
> Imbued don't get to wake up a whole lot, so unless you're facing a deck
> that is successfully pulling off a Darby Dance, it'll typically have to
> tap out when it's in the lunging phase. By keeping pressure high, you can
> make it a lot harder for that deck to try to lunge.
At day 1 of the NAC this year, in game 3, I had an Akunanse predator
with no prior experience against the imbued. She kept relentlessly
coming forward, ran me out of Flash Grenades, and eventually got past
my defenses for an ultimate game win. The key here was persistance.
She kept coming in spite of the fact that my guys were easily coming
out of incapacitated (when they didn't Flash her) and she appeared to
be treading water at best. The thing is, had she let up at ANY point
in the last three or four turns, I would have been able to oust my
prey and (with the six pool boost) very likely her as well.
Recognize your own strengths, though. If you're playing DOM instead of
combat, most of your pressure should probably come from deflection
(even bleeds of one - they add up).
> * Play possum if the deck seems too defensive or isn't going forward much.
> If you can get him to tap a bunch on dumb actions, then bounce a bleed or
> two into him, you should be able to finish him, if you've got sufficient
> payload on hand (which is the other thing you'd need to be working on).
It is absolutely my top priorty when playing an imbued deck to make
sure I leave one blocker untapped for every action I expect my
predator to be able to take on his turn. The only exceptions are
ousting lunges or my predator has minions I KNOW can only bleed for
one each at best. If my grandpredator looks like a heavy bleeder and
my predator is bounce-capable, I leave even more.
-witness1
Brum
Bravo sir! Thank you for that.
Indeed, one of the issues with Imbued is that lots of players never
played or thought about the cards that Imbue use.
Ignorance is the better source of fear.
See you at the Storyline in Palma de Maiorca. No Imbued there, BTW. :)
Tiago
librarian
This seems to leave the door open for non-Imbued Conviction cards...
best -
chris
Brum
Story-wise that's not possible. Vampires have disciplines, Mages have
Spheres, Imbued have Convictions (and Powers), Garous have Gifts (I
think...), etc.
And no, I'm not lobbying for new types of Crypt. -_-
Cheers,
Tiago
Darby Keeney
> * Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now.
You know, there is often a lot of chaff on the internet. Matt's post
is definately NOT chaff (nor is witness1's which follows), it is quite
excellent guidance for those not familiar with killing the Imbued.
And the gist of the whole post boils down to that one simple statement
above.
I advise any reasonably competitive player who has an innate dislike
of Imbued to actually construct a deck and play them a couple of
times. The greater your dislike, the more you need to actually play
them a few times.
First, you'll probably slightly hate them less afterward simply
because they'll no longer be a mystery. You'll immediately know how
much intercept is sitting there, and what the bleed potential is.
This is the reason I built my first Imbued deck knowing I would see
them on the tournament scene. I've never regretted it.
Second, if you still hate them after you know their ins-and-outs,
you'll be armed with more practical tools and experience highlighting
their weaknesses. Your immediate reaction won't be "Oh crap, the
Immune" - it'll be "OK, I know the answer for this problem, I just
need to assemble it"
In addition to Matt's comments, I would add the following general
guidance.
* Understand that the pillow is your friend. If you are predator/prey
of the Imbued and have an opportunity to pillowface any Imbued with a
reasonably high likelihood of success, do it. There are few more
impactful actions you could consider. It's unlikely that you'll even
eat damage from burnt convictions if you're successful. Note that I
don't globally advocate cross-table pillowfacing, though there may be
times that action sets up 2 successive VPs.
* Know what to attack. If you are playing a combat deck - based
either on rush or intercept, Jennie "Cassie247" Orne is your primary
target. Kill her (completely, we're talking pillowface here) and your
job gets easier from there. The second target is usually Travis
"Traveler72" Miller, controlling minion growth rate. Fortunately for
you, these two minions are also among the highest cost to influence,
so you're impacting both function and pool when you roast them.
* Know what to block. If the Imbued player has several minions with
Judgment, stop Vigilance. Don't count on stopping equip actions,
anything important is coming down via Angel of Berlin anyway.
* Know what to block. If a player is Darby Dancing (you couldn't stop
the Vigilances earlier), stop the movement of the equipment package -
not whatever the player is doing when he has the equipment. Follow
the attack priority for your blocks if you can (Jenny first).
* To a lesser extent, plan your deck around seeing allies. When you
construct any non-combat deck, you should consider addition of a
couple of cards specifically impacting allies, preferably ones not
impacted by React with Conviction. It pays dividends not just against
Imbued, but also against many other commonly seen deck archetypes
(block decks with Carlton, War Ghouls, Shambling Hordes)
* Consider the Uncoiling in tournament-level decks. Again, it's not
just for Imbued - it handicaps any deck which relies heavily on The
Unmasking or Anthelios.
Darby
Matthew T. Morgan
> On Oct 21, 2:19�pm, "Matthew T. Morgan" <farq...@io.com> wrote:
>
>> * Know what the Imbued deck is capable of right now. �
>
> You know, there is often a lot of chaff on the internet. Matt's post
> is definately NOT chaff (nor is witness1's which follows), it is quite
> excellent guidance for those not familiar with killing the Imbued.
I like to save posts like these so if anybody asks me "what's so great
about vtes?" I can show them off.
I'm reminded of a player describing a game to me from a major tournament a
few years back. Cross-table (I believe in the grandprey position) was an
Imbued deck. Panic!!! Everybody decided the Imbued had to be killed
straight off and then they'd play a "normal" game, so somebody played a
Smiling Jack and everybody basically did nothing until Jack had killed the
Imbued, which took a while, since Imbued have some okay pool gain options
and don't need to spend a lot of pool to set up. So I asked how the
"normal" game went once the Imbued were dead. My associate said that he
was too damaged by Smiling Jack to really have a game and was ousted
almost immediately. Also, he was low on pool because the Imbued had to be
killed by an Anarchist Uprising or something like that.
Don't be this guy. That is terrible play. Maybe his deck couldn't handle
Imbued (also poor play, since everybody knew Imbued would be in that
tournament), but he could've at least tried to make a VP. Instead he let
the table kill him in the name of stopping the Imbued and ended up not
only not having any VPs, but not even getting to play the game. The funny
part was he still blamed the Imbued.
Matt Morgan
Frederick Scott
news:hbn6o9$dlo$1...@news01.versatel.de...
> Yeah, I had quite a few times the people who thought "we must gang up on the Imbued" and by doing so just made another play win.
> What do you care who wins as long as it isn�t you.
It depends. If it's a deck that made it very difficult or impossible for
me to win just because it's on the table, it gets my table hate. Ultimately,
if I can't win because one of my cross-table allies has some kind of weird
deck that makes me have to choose between ganging up on it and defending
myself against my predator, the issue becomes philosophical. (Yes, I know
this frequently only appears to be the case and people often make the
mistake of giving up too soon. Acknowledging that one must be very
careful about saying this...) If so, then my philosophy is to punish the
weird deck. I expect my predator to try to oust me; that's his job. If
you're going to build some strange deck that makes it a disadvantage for
me to have you as (for instance) a grandpredator, then expect my hate and
know you need to build your deck with that in mind.
Fred