YA(NAO)AP - A bit sloppy, but I'll take it.
cdi
throught. Before I get into all of that, first, the NAO dumplog. This
should raise a few questions/eyebrows:
****
cdi, lawful female human Valkyrie
@ A
---------
|.......|
----- |......a|
...| @|...@A..|
---------..-- ----- @ |....A..|
|.......|...-- -- | A|...A...|A |
|.......|....---%% |. ----@----A.|
|..._...-..%%%%% % % |...D..@......|
|.......|..)%---) % ---....@..@.---
|.......|...-- -- % % -----|-----
---------..-- ----(--- - &
...| | ------- V
----- | |
------- -- %
| -- %
--- ----)---
| ) %
------------
Cdi the Swashbuckler St:25 Dx:18 Co:18 In:12 Wi:15 Ch:11 Lawful
S:1317475
Astral Plane $:0 HP:363(379) Pw:83(83) AC:-29 Xp:20/7400840 T:41284
Satiated
Your inventory
Amulets
h - a cursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
Weapons
a - the blessed rustproof +6 Stormbringer (weapon in hand)
g - a blessed rustproof +6 long sword named (quest,stash lv.15)
(wielded in other hand)
v - 10 blessed +1 daggers named (+1)
Armor
b - a blessed greased +7 elven leather helm (being worn)
c - an uncursed +6 elven mithril-coat (being worn)
d - an uncursed greased fireproof +4 cloak of magic resistance (being
worn)
j - a blessed greased fireproof +4 pair of water walking boots (being
worn)
l - a blessed greased +5 pair of gauntlets of power named
(wiz1:49,wiz2:50) (being worn)
r - a blessed fireproof +4 T-shirt (being worn)
Comestibles
p - an uncursed lizard corpse
B - 3 uncursed C-rations
Rings
s - an uncursed ring of free action (on left hand)
A - an uncursed ring of regeneration (on right hand)
Wands
n - a wand of teleportation (0:8)
o - a wand of death (0:0)
q - a cursed wand of fire (0:3)
t - a cursed wand of death (0:0)
w - a wand of fire (0:1)
x - a cursed wand of digging (0:4)
y - a wand of digging (0:2)
z - a wand of teleportation (0:4)
Tools
e - the blessed Magic Mirror of Merlin
i - an uncursed greased sack named (CAUTION! BOH INSIDE!)
k - a blessed +0 unicorn horn
m - the blessed Orb of Fate (0:4)
u - an uncursed magic lamp (lit)
Gems
f - a blessed luckstone
Contents of the sack named (CAUTION! BOH INSIDE!):
an uncursed +0 pair of levitation boots
an uncursed scroll of light
4 blessed scrolls of remove curse
a potion of holy water
an uncursed ring of conflict
a wand of wishing named (Castle Wishing (0:2)) (1:0)
a wand of polymorph (0:6)
a blessed greased bag of holding
a blessed towel
Contents of the bag of holding:
a cursed amulet of life saving
the rustproof +0 Mjollnir
the +1 Sting
5 uncursed K-rations
7 uncursed C-rations
3 uncursed lembas wafers
13 blessed scrolls of blank paper
an uncursed scroll of scare monster
2 uncursed scrolls of blank paper
a cursed scroll of blank paper
5 potions of holy water
2 potions of unholy water
an uncursed ring of levitation
an uncursed ring of regeneration
an uncursed ring of free action
an uncursed ring of polymorph
an uncursed ring of levitation
an uncursed ring of levitation
a wand of enlightenment (0:10)
a wand of cold (0:5)
a wand of lightning (0:0)
a wand of lightning (0:4)
a wand of fire (0:4)
a wand of digging (0:8)
a wand of cold (0:2)
a wand of death (0:1)
a wand of lightning (0:6)
a wand of cold (0:4)
an uncursed skeleton key
a magic marker (1:2)
a magic marker (1:0)
a blessed magic marker (1:1)
Final attributes
You were piously aligned
You were fire resistant
You were cold resistant
You were disintegration-resistant
You were shock resistant
You were poison resistant
You were level-drain resistant
You were magic-protected
You were telepathic
You were warned
You were invisible
You were stealthy
You could walk on water
You regenerated
You were protected
You were fast
You had reflection
You had free action
You were wielding two weapons at once
You were extremely lucky (11)
You had extra luck
Good luck did not time out for you
You survived
Spells known in the end
Name Level Category Fail
a - magic missile 2* attack 100%
b - cure sickness 3* healing 100%
c - light 1* divination 100%
d - cone of cold 4* attack 100%
e - sleep 1* enchantment 100%
f - fireball 4 attack 100%
Vanquished creatures
Orcus
Juiblex
The Wizard of Yendor (thrice)
Pestilence
Famine (twice)
2 high priests (4 created)
3 mastodons (4 created)
Medusa
[ ... snip ... ]
Lord Surtur
7 baluchitheria (10 created)
8 Angels (27 created)
2 demiliches
Vlad the Impaler
[ ... snip ... ]
a fox (2 created)
[ ... snip ... ]
1900 creatures vanquished.
Genocided or extinct species:
hobbits
dwarves
bugbears
dwarf lords
dwarf kings
mind flayers
master mind flayers
liches
demiliches
master liches
arch-liches
rust monsters
disenchanters
erinyes (extinct)
13 species genocided.
1 species extinct.
Voluntary challenges
You genocided 13 types of monsters
You never polymorphed an object
You never changed form
You used 7 wishes
Your skills at the end
Fighting Skills
two weapon combat [Skilled]
Weapon Skills
dagger [Expert]
broadsword [Skilled]
long sword [Expert]
Spellcasting Skills
(none)
Farvel cdi the Demigoddess...
You went to your reward with 2679750 points,
Stormbringer (worth 8000 zorkmids and 20000 points)
The Magic Mirror of Merlin (worth 1500 zorkmids and 3750 points)
Mjollnir (worth 4000 zorkmids and 10000 points)
Sting (worth 800 zorkmids and 2000 points)
The Orb of Fate (worth 3500 zorkmids and 8750 points)
1 amulet of life saving (worth 150 zorkmids),
1 amulet of reflection (worth 150 zorkmids),
and 0 pieces of gold, after 41284 moves.
Killer: ascended
You were level 20 with a maximum of 379 hit points when you ascended.
You reached the 1979th place on the top 2000 list.
No Points Name
Hp [max]
1 2147483647 Zadir-Pri-Hum-Fem-Neu died on the Astral Plane.
Killed by overexertion.
4140 [4140]
2 2100989450 art-Wiz-Hum-Mal-Neu ascended to demigod-hood.
21799985 [21800000]
3 2025066518 Jove-Wiz-Hum-Mal-Cha ascended to demigod-hood.
1950 [1950]
1977 2685640 pf-Cav-Dwa-Mal-Law ascended to demigod-hood.
314 [314]
1978 2683918 koitsu-Val-Hum-Fem-Neu died on the Plane of Air.
Killed by an Archon, while helpless (with the
Amulet).
- [238]
1979 2679750 cdi-Val-Hum-Fem-Law ascended to demigoddess-hood.
363 [379]
1980 2678808 jmr-Wiz-Elf-Fem-Cha ascended to demigoddess-hood.
256 [256]
1981 2677574 Stumbly-Mon-Hum-Fem-Cha ascended to
demigoddess-hood.
285 [285]
****
Q: You mentioned this was a brain-dead party. What kind of stupid
things did you do?
A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
many more.
Q: Those were all YASD-dumb, but not brass-hat confiscation worthy ...
there has to be something inexcusebly stupid? Right?
A: I have a 102°F fever. I'm not completely lucid right now. That's
not the worst, though. I succumbed to the following sequence of
stupidity while mapping gehennom: "I'm not leaving my notebook in
the car ... Hey, this pub has free wi-fi!" Two pints later: "Let's
play nethack!"
Q: What, no DSM?
A: I found some early (Dlvl.02) elven-mithril. My AC was covered, so
I used the (early) lamp wish on the Magic Mirror of Merlin. My
next wish was from the castle wand, but I don't wish for DSM post-
castle. The first dragon to drop scales did so in Vlad's tower
after I'd already mapped Gehennom and decided to go DSM-less. I
think my reaction was "That's just perfect!"
Q: How, exactly, did you get your hands on Stormbringer?
A: I'd like to thank 'erik' for leaving that in a rogue-level bones
pile. I'd also like to thank the RNG for not vaporizing
Stormbringer (or the magic markers) when I #loot'ed Erik's bag of
holding.
Q: You had Mojo, and could have had Excalibur, so *why* exactly were
you using Stormbringer?
A: I was trying to reach the castle and wishing for this really
delicious artifact athame, you see, so I refrained from #dipping
for Excalibur. That plan went out the window when Stormbringer
showed up. Once I had Stormbringer, I didn't feel like finding the
spare long sword I'd stashed and #dipping.
Q: You were protected. Your AC was -29. Your worn armour puts you at
-29. HEY! Something doesn't add up!
A: I kinda, sorta, had a Stormbringer accident with the High Priest of
Tyr.
Q: Why wasn't your luck maxed out?
A: See above.
Q: So you murdered the co-aligned high priest, then offered the Amulet?
A: Over his dead body! The RNG will punish me severely for this.
Q: 100% failure on all spells. Why did you even bother learning more
than one?
A: I'd found an early robe, and thought "What the heck" ... never did
successfully cast something, though.
Q: Your other two ascentions featured anal-retentive enchantment of
weapons to +7, this doesn't. Why?
A: I got tired of zapping the castle wand of 'Nothing Happens" just
before the endgame.
Q: There's so much about this ascention that is wrong and sloppy,
what gives?
A: I feel dirty, I'm going to go take a shower now.
-cdi
Ohle Claussen
> This was one giant brain-dead party. I did many, many stupid things
> throught.
But you ascended, so congratulations.
> Q: Those were all YASD-dumb, but not brass-hat confiscation worthy ...
> there has to be something inexcusebly stupid? Right?
> A: I have a 102°F fever. I'm not completely lucid right now.
Get well soon! I'll decide on how dumb this really is when I can be arsed
to convert that to proper units.
> That's
> not the worst, though. I succumbed to the following sequence of
> stupidity while mapping gehennom: "I'm not leaving my notebook in
> the car ... Hey, this pub has free wi-fi!" Two pints later: "Let's
> play nethack!"
Yeah, NetHack, unlike pool or darts, does _not_ get easier after a few
pints. It gets worse immediately.
> Q: What, no DSM?
> A: I found some early (Dlvl.02) elven-mithril. My AC was covered, so
> I used the (early) lamp wish on the Magic Mirror of Merlin. My
> next wish was from the castle wand, but I don't wish for DSM post-
> castle.
Good to have principles, eh?
> Q: You had Mojo, and could have had Excalibur, so *why* exactly were
> you using Stormbringer?
I can take that one: Because it's cool. Who needs a better reason than
that?
> Q: Your other two ascentions featured anal-retentive enchantment of
> weapons to +7, this doesn't. Why?
> A: I got tired of zapping the castle wand of 'Nothing Happens" just
> before the endgame.
Well, with an artifact and twoweaponing, you soon reach the point when you
kill everything with two hits anyway.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"I'm trying to protect my invest---my contributors from unscrupulous
practices." --dubya
cdi
Ohle Claussen wrote:
> On 2006-09-08, cdi wrote:
> > This was one giant brain-dead party. I did many, many stupid things
> > throught.
>
> But you ascended, so congratulations.
Yeah! These get read! And thank you!
> > Q: Those were all YASD-dumb, but not brass-hat confiscation worthy ...
> > there has to be something inexcusebly stupid? Right?
> > A: I have a 102°F fever. I'm not completely lucid right now.
>
> Get well soon! I'll decide on how dumb this really is when I can be arsed
> to convert that to proper units.
The healer approved list of activities consisted of "stay in bed".
Everything else was on the "don't do that" list.
By "proper units" you mean, degrees Rankine, right? :)
Unless my calculator's maths is off:
Farenheit: 102.0
Rankine: 561.7
Celcius: 38.9
Kelvin: 312.0
> > That's
> > not the worst, though. I succumbed to the following sequence of
> > stupidity while mapping gehennom: "I'm not leaving my notebook in
> > the car ... Hey, this pub has free wi-fi!" Two pints later: "Let's
> > play nethack!"
>
> Yeah, NetHack, unlike pool or darts, does _not_ get easier after a few
> pints. It gets worse immediately.
So I noticed.
> > Q: What, no DSM?
> > A: I found some early (Dlvl.02) elven-mithril. My AC was covered, so
> > I used the (early) lamp wish on the Magic Mirror of Merlin. My
> > next wish was from the castle wand, but I don't wish for DSM post-
> > castle.
>
> Good to have principles, eh?
Yes, yes it is. Inconvenient too! :-)
> > Q: You had Mojo, and could have had Excalibur, so *why* exactly were
> > you using Stormbringer?
>
> I can take that one: Because it's cool. Who needs a better reason than
> that?
I consider Stormbringer to be the (all-around) weakest of the three.
Like every weapon it has its plus points, though.
> > Q: Your other two ascentions featured anal-retentive enchantment of
> > weapons to +7, this doesn't. Why?
> > A: I got tired of zapping the castle wand of 'Nothing Happens" just
> > before the endgame.
>
> Well, with an artifact and twoweaponing, you soon reach the point when you
> kill everything with two hits anyway.
Throw in a +8 ring of increase damage (ala Grimley, my 2nd ascention),
and it becomes more like one hit. That was a fun game!
> --
> Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
> ----------===========----------
> "I'm trying to protect my invest---my contributors from unscrupulous
> practices." --dubya
I like the quote. It made my day.
-cdi,
David Damerell
>A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
> a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
> potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
> many more.
What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
> not the worst, though. I succumbed to the following sequence of
> stupidity while mapping gehennom: "I'm not leaving my notebook in
> the car ... Hey, this pub has free wi-fi!" Two pints later: "Let's
> play nethack!"
I finished my 2004? Tournament Barbarian while pleasantly buzzed.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Potmos, September.
cdi
David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting cdi <cdinc...@hotmail.com>:
> >A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
> > a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
> > potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
> > many more.
>
> What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
[1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
you.
[2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
the Riders.
[3] Free action! Free action! Free action!
[4] Don't anger peacefuls.
[5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
everything else is irrelavant
[6] Anyone with Vorpy gets the finger, no exception taken.
[7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
[8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
[9] Always, always have an active light source.
[10] /death first, /teleport second.
I violated [1], [2], [4], [5], [8], and [10] during that go around.
> > not the worst, though. I succumbed to the following sequence of
> > stupidity while mapping gehennom: "I'm not leaving my notebook in
> > the car ... Hey, this pub has free wi-fi!" Two pints later: "Let's
> > play nethack!"
>
> I finished my 2004? Tournament Barbarian while pleasantly buzzed.
> --
> David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
> Today is Potmos, September.
Did you notice a difference? Watching the replay, it's obvious (to me)
that I should not have been playing nethack ... the increased tyop
frequency, random minor stupidity, and extreme BoH carelessness are
biggest give-aways that I wasn't my usual paranoid self.
-cdi
Rast
cdinc...@hotmail.com says...
> David Damerell wrote:
> > What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
>
> cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> you.
That's a good rule for Death and Pesty (better still is to not confront
them at all), but what D.D. meant, I think, is that Famine is pathetic
enough that it doesn't matter what you do with him.
> [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> the Riders.
ORLY? What if the Rider is already wounded?
> [3] Free action! Free action! Free action!
Meh. If you have it, wear it. But don't go crazy trying to get it, and
certainly don't waste a wish.
A much better rule is "Conflict! Conflict! Conflict!". If I made a list,
that would be rule #1, and there might not be any more rules.
(OK, #2 would be "stay unburdened" and #3 would be "use jumping boots".)
> [5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
> everything else is irrelavant
My priorities are '_', then '.', but if my path is entirely blocked, I'll
target whatever will most quickly let me resume progress towards the
altar. This is often an 'a'.
--
But my situation is not entirely desperate. The Flatlanders are, I
have learned, edible, with a taste something like very moist smoked
salmon. It takes quite a few of them to make a meal, but they are
plentiful, and they are easy to catch. - Rudy Rucker
sjde...@yahoo.com
> cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> you.
Never wait unless you have a shortage of cures for the riders' ills.
Make progress toward the altar (jumping boots!).
> [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> the Riders.
Ehh.
> [3] Free action! Free action! Free action!
Conflict. Free action protects you from one fairly uncommon scenario
(!paralysis); wear it if you find it but it's not a _huge_ deal. MR
protects you just fine from the other astral sources of paralysis.
> [5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
> everything else is irrelavant
None of those are targets for melee. /death or /teleport, sure, though
often those should be aimed _away_ from the riders to clear a path
that'll get you closer to the next altar.
> [6] Anyone with Vorpy gets the finger, no exception taken.
Probably a good idea.
> [7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
Famine's a joke who you can basically ignore. Don't worry about
spending a turn or two adjacent to him on the way to the altar. Pesty
can put you in immediate danger, requiring you to waste turns healing
up. Death's a joke with high max HP, but can be a nuisance with <
200hp. Treat them differently, based on their powers and your
circumstances.
> [8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
Move first, fight second. Violate [1] if it speeds up your progress
toward altars, which is often.
> [9] Always, always have an active light source.
Yeah. Can't jump without it.
> [10] /death first, /teleport second.
I usually do it the other way around unless there's a rider in the line
of fire, conserving /death charges for things that really warrant them.
Matt Frisch
the ether:
>
>David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting cdi <cdinc...@hotmail.com>:
>> >A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
>> > a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
>> > potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
>> > many more.
>>
>> What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
>
>cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
The list is missing "Don't be burdened", which I violate all the time.
>[1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
>you.
Hmm, I generally let them come to me, but if it is necesary to kill them
faster, I'll go to them.
>[2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
>the Riders.
I melee the riders with a wizard using magicbane when I feel like it.
>[8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
Kill everything, then it is easy to get to the shrine...and back out, if it
is the wrong shrine.
>[10] /death first, /teleport second.
7 ascensions, and I have yet to use teleport in the Astral for any of them.
I do sometimes use death/finger on Pestilence and Famine, but not anything
else.
cdi
sjde...@yahoo.com wrote:
> cdi wrote:
> > cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> > [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> > you.
>
> Never wait unless you have a shortage of cures for the riders' ills.
> Make progress toward the altar (jumping boots!).
>
> > [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> > the Riders.
>
> Ehh.
IIRC, the Riders get 10d8 hit dice, and are generated with an average
of 45.0 HP, and rarely with fewer than 40 or more than 50. They are
also subject to small monster damage. If you average 45.0 damage in
melee, then you'll be insta-killing them more than half the time. I've
never (either while wiz-mode testing or during a real game) had to hit
a rider more than twice when averaging this much damage.
By rigourously following my 1st two rules of engagement, and being very
fast (5 moves / 3 turns), then a Rider will only have the opportunity
to use their touch attack LESS THAN 1/6 of the time.
As a side effect, Arch-liches and Rodney become three-hit kills (almost
without fail). If you are very fast (and are blocking their escape
path), neither can (in practice) cast more than one spell before you
dispatch them.
There are only four weapons worth using here: Grayswandir,
Stormbringer, Excalibur, and Snickersnee. Everything else is either
too weak, bi-manual, a quest artifact, or won't get any damage bonus
against the riders.
(Basic skill for both weapons, basic two-weaponing, and [-1], and 18/**
strength [+6] are assumed and included below)
+7 Grayswandir [28.0]
+7 Stormbringer [23.0] vs. Pestilence / Famine
+7 Excalibur [22.0]
+7 Snickersnee [22.0]
+7 Stormbringer [18.5] vs. Death
+7 elven b.sword [18.0]
+7 katana [17.5]
+7 crysknife [17.5]
+7 long sword [16.5] (or any of the d8/d8 weapons ...)
Arc [b] Grayswandir + katana/crysknife -> 45.5
Bar [b] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 46.0
Kni [s] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 48.0 [+2 skilled]
Rog [s] Stormbringer + elven broadsword -> 43.0 [+2 skilled]
Sam [E] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 43.5 [+4 expert]
Val [s] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 41.5 [+2 skilled]
Averaging 40.0 makes it highly unlikely you'll need more than two
whacks against a rider. 45.0 means that half the time (at least), you
won't even need a second whack.
(If I'm mistaken or made a maths error above, please feel free to
correct me on it.)
> > [3] Free action! Free action! Free action!
>
> Conflict. Free action protects you from one fairly uncommon scenario
> (!paralysis); wear it if you find it but it's not a _huge_ deal. MR
> protects you just fine from the other astral sources of paralysis.
That scenario was prominently involved in my ONLY astral plane death.
> > [5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
> > everything else is irrelavant
>
> None of those are targets for melee. /death or /teleport, sure, though
> often those should be aimed _away_ from the riders to clear a path
> that'll get you closer to the next altar.
I've found that ignoring the summoners generally falls under the
category of "bad plan, so don't do that". I want the liches and titans
dead (summon nasties). I'll take out a priest before (summon insects)
before an angel ... both of these are higher priorty targets (if
they're in my way) than the insects. The insects can't really hurt me,
provide a buffer, and respect elbereth.
> > [6] Anyone with Vorpy gets the finger, no exception taken.
>
> Probably a good idea.
And also why '@' are higher priority than 'A' when I must fight.
> > [7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
>
> Famine's a joke who you can basically ignore. Don't worry about
> spending a turn or two adjacent to him on the way to the altar. Pesty
> can put you in immediate danger, requiring you to waste turns healing
> up. Death's a joke with high max HP, but can be a nuisance with <
> 200hp. Treat them differently, based on their powers and your
> circumstances.
True, Famine is a wuss, but being disciplined when it comes to purple
'&' substantially reduces the risk of carelessness leading to YASD.
> > [8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
>
> Move first, fight second. Violate [1] if it speeds up your progress
> toward altars, which is often.
See my analysis above for why I don't like violating [1].
> > [9] Always, always have an active light source.
>
> Yeah. Can't jump without it.
>
> > [10] /death first, /teleport second.
>
> I usually do it the other way around unless there's a rider in the line
> of fire, conserving /death charges for things that really warrant them.
If it's dead, it can't bother you anymore. If you teleport it, you may
run into it again.
-cdi,
cdi
Matt Frisch wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2006 09:23:15 -0700, "cdi" <cdinc...@hotmail.com> scribed into
> the ether:
>
> >
> >David Damerell wrote:
> >> Quoting cdi <cdinc...@hotmail.com>:
> >> >A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
> >> > a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
> >> > potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
> >> > many more.
> >>
> >> What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
> >
> >cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
>
> The list is missing "Don't be burdened", which I violate all the time.
That's an all the time rule. I was just listing endgame-specific
stuff.
> >[1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> >you.
>
> Hmm, I generally let them come to me, but if it is necesary to kill them
> faster, I'll go to them.
> >[2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> >the Riders.
>
> I melee the riders with a wizard using magicbane when I feel like it.
You sir, are far more gutsy than I.
> >[8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
>
> Kill everything, then it is easy to get to the shrine...and back out, if it
> is the wrong shrine.
I'm midway between the kill-everything and ignore-everything schools.
I kill the dangerous stuff in my way, ignore the chaff, try to spend as
little time as possible on the Astral Plane, and don't take unnecessary
risks. The faster you are, the fewer opportunities the RNG has to
start generating hostile Archons ... and those are never fun.
> >[10] /death first, /teleport second.
>
> 7 ascensions, and I have yet to use teleport in the Astral for any of them.
> I do sometimes use death/finger on Pestilence and Famine, but not anything
> else.
I typically start using /death when I'm on my way to the 2nd altar and
/teleport if I'm forced to visit all three.
-cdi,
sjde...@yahoo.com
> sjde...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > cdi wrote:
> > > cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> > > [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> > > you.
> >
> > Never wait unless you have a shortage of cures for the riders' ills.
> > Make progress toward the altar (jumping boots!).
> >
> > > [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> > > the Riders.
> >
> > Ehh.
>
> IIRC, the Riders get 10d8 hit dice, and are generated with an average
> of 45.0 HP, and rarely with fewer than 40 or more than 50. They are
> also subject to small monster damage. If you average 45.0 damage in
> melee, then you'll be insta-killing them more than half the time.
But you're wasting valuable turns on Astral. Although Astral isn't a
major threat, moving quickly gets it done faster and without falling
low on HP or exposing yourself to other monsters as much.
My first 5-10 ascensions I melee'd a lot, left carnage in my wake, and
didn't use jumping or /teleport. I was paranoid about Death and Pesty
to the point of spending lots of time trying to address them at range
instead of giving them a single turn adjacent to me.
Since I switched to just jumping past them, using /teleport to clear
paths through other monsters, etc Astral's become pretty much a
cakewalk to the point where 200hp and -30 AC with, say, a +4 silver
saber and +2 silver dagger still is safely overprepared.
> then a Rider will only have the opportunity
> to use their touch attack LESS THAN 1/6 of the time.
The touch attack of famine and death is far less dangerous than one
turn with a bunch of Astral nasties around you. Pesty's debateable
since if he gets you ill you have to waste that turn quaffing holy
water or some such.
> As a side effect, Arch-liches and Rodney become three-hit kills (almost
> without fail).
Liches are generally dead long before Astral unless I'm going genoless.
> There are only four weapons worth using here: Grayswandir,
> Stormbringer, Excalibur, and Snickersnee. Everything else is either
> too weak, bi-manual, a quest artifact, or won't get any damage bonus
> against the riders.
Those are among my favorites, but the others are still worthwile
(they're not nearly _as_ good, but the odds of coming up with one of
those for a neutral is low).
In particular, I'd certainly rather have Magicbane if L aren't geno'd,
given that I pretty much never melee on Astral anyway. I'd strongly
consider Sunsword in some circumstances, too.
> > > [3] Free action! Free action! Free action!
> >
> > Conflict. Free action protects you from one fairly uncommon scenario
> > (!paralysis); wear it if you find it but it's not a _huge_ deal. MR
> > protects you just fine from the other astral sources of paralysis.
>
> That scenario was prominently involved in my ONLY astral plane death.
"oLS is better suspenders than =free action, though certainly wear free
action if you find it. It's just not worth a wish or anything.
> > None of those are targets for melee. /death or /teleport, sure, though
> > often those should be aimed _away_ from the riders to clear a path
> > that'll get you closer to the next altar.
>
> I've found that ignoring the summoners generally falls under the
> category of "bad plan, so don't do that".
I've never had problems with summoners on Astral; Archons on Air for
sure. Do summoners summon if you're not in line of sight?
> dead (summon nasties). I'll take out a priest before (summon insects)
> before an angel
Summon insects is a godsend, they're a great buffer between you and
anything actually dangerous.
> > > [7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
> >
> > Famine's a joke who you can basically ignore. Don't worry about
> > spending a turn or two adjacent to him on the way to the altar. Pesty
> > can put you in immediate danger, requiring you to waste turns healing
> > up. Death's a joke with high max HP, but can be a nuisance with <
> > 200hp. Treat them differently, based on their powers and your
> > circumstances.
>
> True, Famine is a wuss, but being disciplined when it comes to purple
> '&' substantially reduces the risk of carelessness leading to YASD.
To me, paying attention to what each monster is instead of lumping all
"same color, same symbol" together seems lower risk.
> > > [10] /death first, /teleport second.
> >
> > I usually do it the other way around unless there's a rider in the line
> > of fire, conserving /death charges for things that really warrant them.
>
> If it's dead, it can't bother you anymore. If you teleport it, you may
> run into it again.
Yes, but /death misses frequently. /tele doesn't. And /death charges
take out pestilence/famine, while they're relatively /tele resistant.
I find saving the handful of charges left from Orcus' wand for riders
and extreme circumstances far nicer than wasting them earlier. If I've
found a couple extra /death I may alter the plan a bit.
Jove
>
>sjde...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> cdi wrote:
>> > cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
>> > [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
>> > you.
>>
>> Never wait unless you have a shortage of cures for the riders' ills.
>> Make progress toward the altar (jumping boots!).
>>
>> > [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
>> > the Riders.
>>
>> Ehh.
Your following analysis is very nice. I do have some comments that I
hope will be helpful.
>
>IIRC, the Riders get 10d8 hit dice, and are generated with an average
>of 45.0 HP, and rarely with fewer than 40 or more than 50. They are
>also subject to small monster damage. If you average 45.0 damage in
>melee, then you'll be insta-killing them more than half the time. I've
>never (either while wiz-mode testing or during a real game) had to hit
>a rider more than twice when averaging this much damage.
This also follows eit_brad's and zadir's experience with Rider farming.
(And mine.)
>
>There are only four weapons worth using here: Grayswandir,
>Stormbringer, Excalibur, and Snickersnee. Everything else is either
>too weak, bi-manual, a quest artifact, or won't get any damage bonus
>against the riders.
>
>(Basic skill for both weapons, basic two-weaponing, and [-1], and 18/**
>strength [+6] are assumed and included below)
I'm presuming the [-1] above is the damage bonus for basic weapon skill
on the #twoweapon table in
<http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>
For the lurkers I'll note that, yes, twoweaponing uses a different, and
worse, damage/to-hit table than single weaponing. Also note that the
*lesser* of #twoweapon and weapon skill is used for each weapon on the
table. (Hence cdi's specification that both weapons and the twoweapon
skill being at basic.)
>
>+7 Grayswandir [28.0]
>+7 Stormbringer [23.0] vs. Pestilence / Famine
>+7 Excalibur [22.0]
>+7 Snickersnee [22.0]
>+7 Stormbringer [18.5] vs. Death
Note the different effect for Stormbringer vs Death because Death cannot
be level drained.
In the following note that base weapon is the basic weapon damage vs
small monsters. (The Riders count as small monsters. This was not my
decision.)
Base Ench Str Artif Skill Total
Grayswandir-silver saber +4.5 +7 +6 +11.5 -1 28.0
Stormbringer-runesword +5.0 +7 +6 + 6.0 -1 23.0 (Pestilence/Famine)
Excalibur-long sword +4.5 +7 +6 + 5.5 -1 22.0
Snickersnee-katana +5.5 +7 +6 + 4.5 -1 22.0
Stormbringer-runesword +5.0 +7 +6 + 1.5 -1 18.5 vs. Death
Artifact damage bonus:
Grayswandir doubles base weapon and enchantment damage.
Stormbringer adds d2 damage bonus, average 1.5. d8 additional damage is
done to monsters that are not level drain resistant, averaging to 4.5.
E.g. Pestilence and Famine.
Excalibur does d10 additional damage, averaging 5.5.
Snickersnee does d8 additional damage, averaging 4.5.
Looks like a perfect match with cdi's results.
>
>+7 elven b.sword [18.0]
>+7 katana [17.5]
>+7 crysknife [17.5]
>+7 long sword [16.5] (or any of the d8/d8 weapons ...)
I really wish you'd shown your work in the above. It would make it much
easier to check your work, both for us and for yourself.
>
>Arc [b] Grayswandir + katana/crysknife -> 45.5
>Bar [b] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 46.0
>Kni [s] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 48.0 [+2 skilled]
>Rog [s] Stormbringer + elven broadsword -> 43.0 [+2 skilled]
>Sam [E] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 43.5 [+4 expert]
>Val [s] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 41.5 [+2 skilled]
Note well that in the above Roles are picked for their ability to get to
the specified skill level in all three of twoweaponing, primary, and
secondary weapon skill.
"[+2 skilled]" indicates the advantage of having all three skills at
"Skilled" as opposed to all three skills at "Basic". Skilled on the
twoweaponing table gives a +0 bonus, as opposed to -1 at Basic skill. Since
the bonus applies to both weapons this is doubled to +2 better than basic
skill in all three skills. A similar explanation covers the Expert for
Samurai. NB: Expert in twoweapon, longword, and katana for Samurai costs
about 17 skill slots.
Note that the damage from rings of increase damage would be doubled.
>
>Averaging 40.0 makes it highly unlikely you'll need more than two
>whacks against a rider. 45.0 means that half the time (at least), you
>won't even need a second whack.
>
>(If I'm mistaken or made a maths error above, please feel free to
>correct me on it.)
>
I did the best I could.
Special case: Knights jousting with twoweaponed +7 lances while riding at
Expert skill.
Base Ench Str Joust Ride Total
lance(primary) +3.5 +7 +6 +8.6 +2 27.0
lance(secondary) +3.5 +7 +6 +1.8 +2 20.3
Total: 47.3
Lance when riding does 2d10 for successful joust. That's +11 adjusted to
8.6 for 60% joust chance of success. Knights can get to skilled in
twoweapon. At skilled the chance for a successful joust is 60%. 2d2 for a
lance held secondary. That's 3.0 adjusted to 1.8 at 60% chance of success.
(Lances can be wished for, guaranteed.) Note that a successful joust will
also knock back the Rider.
The downside is that you have to be #riding and have two +7 lances.
Neither is likely. Riding is especially unlikely as keeping a steed alive
through the Endgame is very difficult.
OTOH a knight with the Magic Mirror of Merlin casting Magic Missile at
XL:14 will average 8 * d6 * 2 = 16 * 3.5 = 56 points of damage per hit.
Add 2 points for Int greater than 18. The MMoM will double that to make it
60 per hit. Range up to 10, IIRC. Bounce it and double the damage.
Get to XL:30 and it's 16 * d6 * 2 = 32 * 3.5 = 112 per hit. Add in Int
greater than 18 and it's 120 per hit. One shot. One kill. (Bounce it and
double the damage.) A spellbook of magic missile can be wished for.
Expert multishot missile attacks rival #twoweaponing with the best
artifacts as primary weapon. They also permit wearing a shield, +6 to +9
extra AC. They take one-half to one-third as many skill slots. They take
half as many scrolls of Enchant Weapon to get to +7. Best of all, missile
attacks can be used at ranges up to Str/2. Why give the Rider any chance
to hit you back? (Expert multishot missiles average 2x damage. Expert
Ranger multishot missiles average 2.5x damage. Expert All-Elven Ranger
arrows average 3x damage.)
R - Rogues also get a +1 possible missile added to multishot for daggers.
E - Elves get a +1 possible missile and +1 damage when using elven
bow/arrows
Rangers get a +1 possible missile added to all multishot missiles.
Quarrels are crossbow bolts.
AllElf - Elf firing elven arrows from an elven bow.
AllOrc - Orc firing orcish arrows from an orcish bow.
The Expert column is blanked out for AllElf and AllOrc because the only way
Elves and Orcs can get to Expert in bow is by being a Ranger.
Expert is the average number of missiles fired at expert skill and the
damage total for non-rangers. Ranger is the same but for Rangers.
(Rangers get a role bonus on all multi-shot missiles.) For daggers, the
column for Rangers also applies to Rogues, due to the Rogue class dagger
bonus. Rangers can get to Expert with all multi-shot missiles except
Shuriken.
Vs. Poison resistant monsters:
Base Skill Str Ench Race Total Expert Ranger
Dmg Dmg 25 # Ttl # Ttl
Darts 2 2 6 +7 +0 17.0 2 34 2.5 42.5
Shuriken 4 2 6 +7 +0 19.0 2 38 2.0 38.0
Dagger 3.0 2 6 +7 +0 18.0 2 36 2.5 45R
AllElf 4.0 2 0 +7 +1 14.0 ------ 3.0 42
AllOrc 3.0 2 0 +7 +1 13.0 ------ 3.0 39
Arrows 3.5 2 0 +7 +0 12.5 2 25 2.5 31
Quarrels 4.0 2 0 +7 +0 13.0 2 26 2.5 32.5
Boomerang 5.0 2 6 +7 +0 20.0 1 20 -------
Samurai-Y&Y 4.0 2 0 +7 +1 14.0 2.5 35 -------
Note that the multiplier effects apply to any bonuses from rings of
increase damage. E.g. AllElf Ranger would triple the effect of any such
ring. Even a +1 ring would give an extra average +3 damage per firing. A
Rogue wearing a +2 ring of increase damage would get an extra +5 per firing
of Expert daggers.
Range is up to Str/2 for missile attacks. You can do as much damage and
from a distance so the Rider has no chance to hit back. You can also wear
a shield for 6 to 9 extra AC. Darts, shuriken, daggers, and boomerangs are
"no hands" weapons. You can wield whatever you like and still throw them.
For comparison, Expert singleweapon Grayswandir does 31 damage.
Darts - Healers, Rangers, Rogues, Tourists and Wizards can get to Expert.
Shuriken - Only Samurai can get to Expert. Rangers match this at skilled
due to Role bonus.
Dagger - Ranger, Rogue, Tourist, Valkyrie, Wizard can get to Expert.
Rogues get a Role bonus.
Arrows (Bow) - Rangers and Samurai get to Expert.
Quarrels (Crossbow) - Rangers and Rogues can get to Expert.
Boomerang - NOT multishot - Archaeologist, Cavemen, Rangers. (I guess
aborigines count as Cavemen) Boomerangs are included despite
to lack of multishot because 20 damage is worth it for a
ranged weapon that can return when
it misses.
--
Welcome to NetHack. | I take what I'm given.
| You exploit the game.
All the best, | He's an abusive cheater.
Jove (Joe Bednorz)
Jove
>I'm midway between the kill-everything and ignore-everything schools.
>I kill the dangerous stuff in my way, ignore the chaff, try to spend as
>little time as possible on the Astral Plane, and don't take unnecessary
>risks. The faster you are, the fewer opportunities the RNG has to
>start generating hostile Archons ... and those are never fun.
>
Do you #jump? On my first Ascension I jumped past Pestilence twice
without being touched. Jumping boots, a light source, and some wands of
teleport make Astral so easy it feels like cheating. Getting to the
nearest altar and back can be done before the level can start to fill with
monsters.
It also works on the Plane of Fire. I've posted many times that Archons
are much less of a problem when they're receding rapidly in your rear view
mirror. Rast did a ttyrec of doing the Endgame at high speed.
Here's the post with the link to the ttyrec:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/ae51109282a6855d?hl=en&>
Ohle Claussen
>
> cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> the Riders.
Depends. If you're prepared, it's not too bad.
> [5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
> everything else is irrelavant
That certainly depends on the tactical situation. First attack the nasty
doing the summoning storm at the moment, then hurry to the chosen high
altar, everything else is secondary.
> [7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
Why? They _are_ different.
> [8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
> [9] Always, always have an active light source.
> [10] /death first, /teleport second.
Depends on the target. /Death against riders (well, two of them) and
summoners, /teleport against stuff standing in your way, maybe break one.
>
> I violated [1], [2], [4], [5], [8], and [10] during that go around.
All of those are somewhat sensible rules, none of them should be viewed as
compulsory, IMO.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"A reformer with results is a conservative who has had compassionate results
in the state of Texas." --dubya
Matt Frisch
the ether:
>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> On 13 Sep 2006 09:23:15 -0700, "cdi" <cdinc...@hotmail.com> scribed into
>> the ether:
>>
>> >
>> >David Damerell wrote:
>> >> Quoting cdi <cdinc...@hotmail.com>:
>> >> >A: Lots of them, for example: I melee'd eels and krakens, I #loot'ed
>> >> > a known to be cursed bag of holding ... twice!, I didn't save any
>> >> > potions of foo-healing for the endgame, melee'ing Famine, and many
>> >> > many more.
>> >>
>> >> What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
>> >
>> >cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
>>
>> The list is missing "Don't be burdened", which I violate all the time.
>
>That's an all the time rule. I was just listing endgame-specific
>stuff.
Being burdened on the Astral adds extra spice for me. Also never use
conflict. Conflict to me just feels like cheating its so hugely powerful. I
also don't use the helm of opposite alignment "trick", which isn't so much
"feels like cheating" as "is cheating" to me.
>> >[8] Move first, fight second, but never violate [1].
>>
>> Kill everything, then it is easy to get to the shrine...and back out, if it
>> is the wrong shrine.
>
>I'm midway between the kill-everything and ignore-everything schools.
>I kill the dangerous stuff in my way, ignore the chaff, try to spend as
>little time as possible on the Astral Plane, and don't take unnecessary
>risks. The faster you are, the fewer opportunities the RNG has to
>start generating hostile Archons ... and those are never fun.
I just slaughter everything. My last ascension, a Barbarian, had some
amusement when after finding the correct high altar, had a spawned frost
giant throw a boulder at me in the doorway to the shrine area...I sat there
zapping wands through the boulder to kill stuff on the other side just to
get more points. Sometimes I'll try to strand a rider on the other side of
the shrine so he stops bugging me while I go to the next shrine if it
turned out to be the wrong one.
Kill everything, I say. If I run another high-offense output character like
an Arc or Wizard, I'll probably visit all three shrines no matter where the
correct one is, just to wipe the Astral clean of all hostile life. I can
just picture dropping The Amulet on the right shrine, and then wandering
about the level free of the extra spellpoint drain and going crazy. It'll
be fun.
>> >[10] /death first, /teleport second.
>>
>> 7 ascensions, and I have yet to use teleport in the Astral for any of them.
>> I do sometimes use death/finger on Pestilence and Famine, but not anything
>> else.
>
>I typically start using /death when I'm on my way to the 2nd altar and
>/teleport if I'm forced to visit all three.
I always bring a bunch of teleport wands with me, just never actually end
up using them. But then, I bring lots of crap with me. +7 rustproof
pickaxes are a favorite :)
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
>cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
Now _that's_ stupid and in a situation where your survival is in doubt
could kill you if you avoid Famine in the way one would avoid Pestilence
and the wasted time lets other stuff catch up.
They're _not_ equal. Treat the incredibly dangerous one as incredibly
dangerous and the largely harmless one as largely harmless.
>[5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
>everything else is irrelavant
So you'd ignore an arch-lich to beat up on Famine. Not smart.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Teleute, September.
Rast
inv...@invalid.invalid says...
> Do you #jump? On my first Ascension I jumped past Pestilence twice
> without being touched. Jumping boots, a light source, and some wands of
> teleport make Astral so easy it feels like cheating. Getting to the
> nearest altar and back can be done before the level can start to fill with
> monsters.
>
> It also works on the Plane of Fire. I've posted many times that Archons
> are much less of a problem when they're receding rapidly in your rear view
> mirror. Rast did a ttyrec of doing the Endgame at high speed.
>
> Here's the post with the link to the ttyrec:
>
> <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/ae51109282a6855d?hl=en&>
The link in my post doesn't work any more. Instead use
http://home.dmv.com/~rast/nethack/planes_in_140.ttyrec
I think Shawn Moore has an even faster Planes ttyrec, or at least a
faster Astral, but I don't remember the link.
--
"It's only possible to betray where loyalty is due," said Sandy.
"Well, wasn't it due to Miss Brodie?"
"Only up to a point," said Sandy.
- Muriel Spark
cdi
Rast wrote:
> In article <tmdhg2luh1dvhknc1...@4ax.com>,
> inv...@invalid.invalid says...
>
> > Do you #jump? On my first Ascension I jumped past Pestilence twice
> > without being touched. Jumping boots, a light source, and some wands of
> > teleport make Astral so easy it feels like cheating. Getting to the
> > nearest altar and back can be done before the level can start to fill with
> > monsters.
> >
> > It also works on the Plane of Fire. I've posted many times that Archons
> > are much less of a problem when they're receding rapidly in your rear view
> > mirror. Rast did a ttyrec of doing the Endgame at high speed.
> >
> > Here's the post with the link to the ttyrec:
> >
> > <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/ae51109282a6855d?hl=en&>
>
> The link in my post doesn't work any more. Instead use
> http://home.dmv.com/~rast/nethack/planes_in_140.ttyrec
>
> I think Shawn Moore has an even faster Planes ttyrec, or at least a
> faster Astral, but I don't remember the link.
I just finished watching that and all I can say is ... wow! wow! and
effing wow!
I've never used #jump during the endgame (and rarely anywhere else) ...
I guess I should start doing so.
-cdi,
cdi
David Damerell wrote:
> Quoting cdi <cdinc...@hotmail.com>:
> >David Damerell wrote:
> >>What's wrong with meleeing Famine?
> >cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> >[7] Use discipline, treat each rider equally.
>
> Now _that's_ stupid and in a situation where your survival is in doubt
> could kill you if you avoid Famine in the way one would avoid Pestilence
> and the wasted time lets other stuff catch up.
>
> They're _not_ equal. Treat the incredibly dangerous one as incredibly
> dangerous and the largely harmless one as largely harmless.
I never thought I'd hear anyone refer to a Rider of the Apocalypse as
"largely harmless"
> >[5] Target priority, '&' -> 'L' -> 'H' -> '@' -> 'A', almost
> >everything else is irrelavant
>
> So you'd ignore an arch-lich to beat up on Famine. Not smart.
You know, now that I think about it (a bit more), you're right ... that
one is a dumb move.
-cdi
Jove
Good on Rast.
>
>I've never used #jump during the endgame (and rarely anywhere else) ...
>I guess I should start doing so.
>
Note that Knights have intrinsic #jumping ability from the get go.
Only a chess knight's move but better than nothing.
The Eyes of the Overworld are the perfect complement to jumping as
they prevent blinding by Archons as well as removing the need for a
light source.
It can get even better. Expert spell of jump can travel 4 squares
horizontally/vertically and 3 squares diagonally. It also works while
burdened, unlike jumping boots.
The only problem is ordinary portable light sources don't illuminate
that far, not even the Eyes of the Overworld. (And only Wizards can get
to Expert with the spell of jump.) Even so that occasional extra square
of travel really puts the distance between you and any annoying
monsters.
On the Plane of Fire lava and fire elementals will light some squares.
(Be sure to wear your fireproof water walking boots for jumping onto
lava.) On the Astral Plane at least some of the level is pre-lit. You
can use a lantern or lamp the rest of the time. (This is why I always
save my first magic lamp as a light source.)
Wands of light, uncursed scrolls of light, and the spell of light can
help out to radius 5, but take a turn to zap/read/perform. A blessed
scroll of light will light up to radius 9.
The real solution? Use the Candelabrum of Invocation. Don't forget
that a wish for 7 candles will always succeed.
cdi
Jove wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2006 15:57:32 -0700, cdi wrote:
>
> >
> >sjde...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> cdi wrote:
> >> > cdi's (abridged) endgame rules of engagement:
> >> > [1] Never intentionally move adjacent to a Rider, let them come to
> >> > you.
> >>
> >> Never wait unless you have a shortage of cures for the riders' ills.
> >> Make progress toward the altar (jumping boots!).
> >>
> >> > [2] Unless your small average damage is 45.0 (or higher), don't melee
> >> > the Riders.
> >>
> >> Ehh.
>
> Your following analysis is very nice. I do have some comments that I
> hope will be helpful.
Thank you, I appreciate the compliment. Your comments were quite
helpful. I have a few things to add ...
> >
> >IIRC, the Riders get 10d8 hit dice, and are generated with an average
> >of 45.0 HP, and rarely with fewer than 40 or more than 50. They are
> >also subject to small monster damage. If you average 45.0 damage in
> >melee, then you'll be insta-killing them more than half the time. I've
> >never (either while wiz-mode testing or during a real game) had to hit
> >a rider more than twice when averaging this much damage.
>
> This also follows eit_brad's and zadir's experience with Rider farming.
> (And mine.)
Rider farming? People are crazy enough to do that?
> >
> >There are only four weapons worth using here: Grayswandir,
> >Stormbringer, Excalibur, and Snickersnee. Everything else is either
> >too weak, bi-manual, a quest artifact, or won't get any damage bonus
> >against the riders.
> >
> >(Basic skill for both weapons, basic two-weaponing, and [-1], and 18/**
> >strength [+6] are assumed and included below)
>
> I'm presuming the [-1] above is the damage bonus for basic weapon skill
> on the #twoweapon table in
> <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>
It is. I realized (after posting, doh!) that I had included a very
poorly worded (and convoluted) sentence there.
> For the lurkers I'll note that, yes, twoweaponing uses a different, and
> worse, damage/to-hit table than single weaponing. Also note that the
> *lesser* of #twoweapon and weapon skill is used for each weapon on the
> table. (Hence cdi's specification that both weapons and the twoweapon
> skill being at basic.)
The twoweaponing to-hit penalties for unskilled/basic are severe enough
that I ususally wait until I have at least +5 in extrinsic to-hit
bonuses (rings/luck/enchantment) before I begin twoweaponing. A good
rule-of-thumb might be "find a luckstone, then #twoweapon".
> >
> >+7 Grayswandir [28.0]
> >+7 Stormbringer [23.0] vs. Pestilence / Famine
> >+7 Excalibur [22.0]
> >+7 Snickersnee [22.0]
> >+7 Stormbringer [18.5] vs. Death
>
> Note the different effect for Stormbringer vs Death because Death cannot
> be level drained.
>
> In the following note that base weapon is the basic weapon damage vs
> small monsters. (The Riders count as small monsters. This was not my
> decision.)
<http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/mon2-343.txt> lists monster
difficulty and size. Everything listed "medium" and below is
considered to be small for the purposes of damage calculation (and this
discussion).
It is worth mentioning here that the vast majority of the monsters that
don't respect Elbereth also count as small. Only Medusa, coatls,
ki-rin, Archons, and Minotaurs are considered 'large' and *don't*
respect the E-word.
Of the high-difficulty e-word respecting monsters: Dispater, Vlad the
Impaler, Scorpius, sandestins, foo-liches, Nazgul, and (master) mind
flayers are also small.
When devising a weapon selection strategy, the greatest emphasis should
be placed on skill advanceability combined with small monster damage.
Counter-intuitively, an elven short sword (or other d8/d8 weapon) at
expert is *superior* to a non-artifact long sword or katana at basic.
Skill SDAM SBase LDAM LBase SAVG LAVG Score
expert katana +2 d10 +5.5 d12 +6.5 7.5 8.5 16.0
expert long sword +2 d8 +4.5 d12 +4.5 6.5 8.5 15.0
skilled katana +1 d10 +5.5 d12 +6.5 6.5 7.5 14.0
expert elven short* +2 d8 +4.5 d8 +4.5 6.5* 6.5 13.0*
skilled long sword +1 d8 +4.5 d8 +4.5 5.5 7.5 13.0
basic katana +0 d10 +5.5 d12 +6.5 5.5 6.5 12.0
skilled elven short* +1 d8 +4.5 d8 +4.5 5.5* 5.5 11.0*
basic long sword +0 d8 +4.5 d12 +6.5 4.5 6.5 11.0
[Score is SAVG + LAVG, a bad measure that weights SAVG and LAVG
equally.]
> Base Ench Str Artif Skill Total
> Grayswandir-silver saber +4.5 +7 +6 +11.5 -1 28.0
> Stormbringer-runesword +5.0 +7 +6 + 6.0 -1 23.0 (Pestilence/Famine)
> Excalibur-long sword +4.5 +7 +6 + 5.5 -1 22.0
> Snickersnee-katana +5.5 +7 +6 + 4.5 -1 22.0
> Stormbringer-runesword +5.0 +7 +6 + 1.5 -1 18.5 vs. Death
>
> Artifact damage bonus:
> Grayswandir doubles base weapon and enchantment damage.
> Stormbringer adds d2 damage bonus, average 1.5. d8 additional damage is
> done to monsters that are not level drain resistant, averaging to 4.5.
> E.g. Pestilence and Famine.
> Excalibur does d10 additional damage, averaging 5.5.
> Snickersnee does d8 additional damage, averaging 4.5.
>
> Looks like a perfect match with cdi's results.
Cool, I didn't screw it up!
> >
> >+7 elven b.sword [18.0]
> >+7 katana [17.5]
> >+7 crysknife [17.5]
> >+7 long sword [16.5] (or any of the d8/d8 weapons ...)
>
> I really wish you'd shown your work in the above. It would make it much
> easier to check your work, both for us and for yourself.
Noted, I'll be certain to do so in the future.
> >
> >Arc [b] Grayswandir + katana/crysknife -> 45.5
> >Bar [b] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 46.0
> >Kni [s] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 48.0 [+2 skilled]
> >Rog [s] Stormbringer + elven broadsword -> 43.0 [+2 skilled]
> >Sam [E] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 43.5 [+4 expert]
> >Val [s] Snickersnee/Excalibur + katana -> 41.5 [+2 skilled]
>
> Note well that in the above Roles are picked for their ability to get to
> the specified skill level in all three of twoweaponing, primary, and
> secondary weapon skill.
I neglected to include Tourist above. They can get to skilled in
sabre, two-weapon, and knife. Additionally, Rogues (skilled), Samurai
(basic), and Valkyries (basic) are unrestricted in sabre. Four more
stupid-melee-damage options (in the same formatting as above, for
consistency):
Rog [s] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 48.0 [+2 skilled both]
Sam [E] Grayswandir + katana -> 47.5 [+2 expert katana]
Val [s] Grayswandir + elven broadsword -> 47.0 [+1 skilled broadsword]
Tou [s] Grayswandir + crysknife -> 46.5 [+1 skilled knife]
If you can two-weapon, it is worthwhile to (at least) consider wishing
for Grayswandir.
> "[+2 skilled]" indicates the advantage of having all three skills at
> "Skilled" as opposed to all three skills at "Basic". Skilled on the
> twoweaponing table gives a +0 bonus, as opposed to -1 at Basic skill. Since
> the bonus applies to both weapons this is doubled to +2 better than basic
> skill in all three skills. A similar explanation covers the Expert for
> Samurai. NB: Expert in twoweapon, longword, and katana for Samurai costs
> about 17 skill slots.
>
> Note that the damage from rings of increase damage would be doubled.
I thought this was the case, but wasn't completely certain. Thanks for
the confirmation. Highly enchanted rings of increase damage are
especially yummy. :-)
> >
> >Averaging 40.0 makes it highly unlikely you'll need more than two
> >whacks against a rider. 45.0 means that half the time (at least), you
> >won't even need a second whack.
> >
> >(If I'm mistaken or made a maths error above, please feel free to
> >correct me on it.)
> >
>
> I did the best I could.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
> Special case: Knights jousting with twoweaponed +7 lances while riding at
> Expert skill.
>
> Base Ench Str Joust Ride Total
> lance(primary) +3.5 +7 +6 +8.6 +2 27.0
> lance(secondary) +3.5 +7 +6 +1.8 +2 20.3
> Total: 47.3
>
> Lance when riding does 2d10 for successful joust. That's +11 adjusted to
> 8.6 for 60% joust chance of success. Knights can get to skilled in
> twoweapon. At skilled the chance for a successful joust is 60%. 2d2 for a
> lance held secondary. That's 3.0 adjusted to 1.8 at 60% chance of success.
> (Lances can be wished for, guaranteed.) Note that a successful joust will
> also knock back the Rider.
>
> The downside is that you have to be #riding and have two +7 lances.
> Neither is likely. Riding is especially unlikely as keeping a steed alive
> through the Endgame is very difficult.
I'll need to try the jousting knight at the next opportunity.
> OTOH a knight with the Magic Mirror of Merlin casting Magic Missile at
> XL:14 will average 8 * d6 * 2 = 16 * 3.5 = 56 points of damage per hit.
> Add 2 points for Int greater than 18. The MMoM will double that to make it
> 60 per hit. Range up to 10, IIRC. Bounce it and double the damage.
>
> Get to XL:30 and it's 16 * d6 * 2 = 32 * 3.5 = 112 per hit. Add in Int
> greater than 18 and it's 120 per hit. One shot. One kill. (Bounce it and
> double the damage.) A spellbook of magic missile can be wished for.
Something to keep in mind here, Magic Missiles do *ZERO* damage to
Angels, monsters with reflection, and magic-protected monsters. I'm
not sure about other 'A'
The two "crowd control" spells cast at skilled (cone of cold &&
fireball) are much more effective when clearing out the astral hordes.
They don't work on the riders, though.
A minor correction: Rangers average 36.0 damage with skilled shuriken.
Their skill bonus is only +1, not the +2 for Expert.
A few things to note here:
1) Samurai with Expert Yumi/Ya average more damage than Rangers with
the Longbow of Diana/Ordinary Arrows.
2) Ditto Samurai with Shuriken.
3) With Samurai, conserving Ya for the endgame is probably wise.
4) Because TDT thinks of *EVERYTHING* it is probably no accident that
the Samurai quest artifact is bi-manual with an "always on" damage
bonus and an insta-kill.
> Note that the multiplier effects apply to any bonuses from rings of
> increase damage. E.g. AllElf Ranger would triple the effect of any such
> ring. Even a +1 ring would give an extra average +3 damage per firing. A
> Rogue wearing a +2 ring of increase damage would get an extra +5 per firing
> of Expert daggers.
Because of the higher damage for AllElf and AllOrc Rangers in the late
game, switching from ones starting <racial> arrows to ordinary arrows
in the early game is possibly worth considering for *highly* skilled
players. I am not good enough to pull this off.
> Range is up to Str/2 for missile attacks. You can do as much damage and
> from a distance so the Rider has no chance to hit back. You can also wear
> a shield for 6 to 9 extra AC. Darts, shuriken, daggers, and boomerangs are
> "no hands" weapons. You can wield whatever you like and still throw them.
> For comparison, Expert singleweapon Grayswandir does 31 damage.
>
> Darts - Healers, Rangers, Rogues, Tourists and Wizards can get to Expert.
> Shuriken - Only Samurai can get to Expert. Rangers match this at skilled
> due to Role bonus.
> Dagger - Ranger, Rogue, Tourist, Valkyrie, Wizard can get to Expert.
> Rogues get a Role bonus.
> Arrows (Bow) - Rangers and Samurai get to Expert.
> Quarrels (Crossbow) - Rangers and Rogues can get to Expert.
> Boomerang - NOT multishot - Archaeologist, Cavemen, Rangers. (I guess
> aborigines count as Cavemen) Boomerangs are included despite
> to lack of multishot because 20 damage is worth it for a
> ranged weapon that can return when
> it misses.
>
>
>
> --
> Welcome to NetHack. | I take what I'm given.
> | You exploit the game.
> All the best, | He's an abusive cheater.
> Jove (Joe Bednorz)
Thanks for the missile weapon / spell analysis. It was quite helpful.
-cdi
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>They're _not_ equal. Treat the incredibly dangerous one as incredibly
>>dangerous and the largely harmless one as largely harmless.
>I never thought I'd hear anyone refer to a Rider of the Apocalypse as
>"largely harmless"
Neither would I until the day I actually sat down and said to myself "Just
how much food does Famine's special attack drain?"
--
OPTIONS=name:Kirsty,menustyle:C,female,lit_corridor,standout,time,showexp,hilit
e_pet,catname:Akane,dogname:Ryoga,fruit:okonomiyaki,pickup_types:"!$?=/,scores:
5 top/2 around,color,boulder:0,autoquiver,autodig,disclose:yiyayvygyc,pickup_bu
rden:burdened,!cmdassist,msg_window:reversed,!sparkle,horsename:Rumiko,showrace
Grunt
>>I never thought I'd hear anyone refer to a Rider of the Apocalypse as
>>"largely harmless"
>
> Neither would I until the day I actually sat down and said to myself "Just
> how much food does Famine's special attack drain?"
40-79 hunger is not exactly trivial. Granted, it does take longer for
the attack to have a significant impact than the attacks of the other
two Riders, but it could still be considered a significant threat if you
spend any signifcant amount of time in his vicinity.
Richard Bos
Yeah. You don't go sit down and have a hearty chap with him. But neither
do you worry when you meet him.
Richard
Martin Read
>40-79 hunger is not exactly trivial.
Actually, it is. It takes 6-10 hits to remove the nutrition of one
K-ration (a foodstuff which can be ingested in one action); it (on
average) takes a high level player 2-3 hits to remove Famine's entire
supply of hit points. A high-level player is guaranteed to hit Famine
every attack; Famine is not guaranteed to hit a well-armoured player
every attack.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "the lights shine clear through the sodium haze the night draws near
\/ and the daylight fades" -- Sisters of Mercy, "Lights"
Philipp Lucas
>sj...@ualberta.ca wrote:
>>40-79 hunger is not exactly trivial.
>Actually, it is. It takes 6-10 hits to remove the nutrition of one
>K-ration (a foodstuff which can be ingested in one action);
One just has to remember to eat.
3.4.3 1564926 7 -5 49 -8 237 1 20060916 20060818 1 Wiz Elf Fem Cha
Zvetiki2,killed by Famine, while fainted from lack of food (with the
Amulet) {43500}
I had food, and wands of death and teleportation, and amulets of live
saving in my main inventory. Instead, I fetched a potion of full healing
from a bag and quaffed it, leaving enough time for Famine to get me
fainting. And I guess I have only myself to blame for this.
I hate it when I needlessly throw away characters at such an advanced
stage.
--
Philipp Lucas
phl...@f-m.fm
Old address phl...@online-club.de is no longer valid.
David Damerell
>Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>sj...@ualberta.ca wrote:
>>>40-79 hunger is not exactly trivial.
>>Actually, it is. It takes 6-10 hits to remove the nutrition of one
>>K-ration (a foodstuff which can be ingested in one action);
And don't forget, if you start Satiated - and why wouldn't you - it's
going to take an average of 17 such hits to make you Fainting, assuming
you started only just Satiated.
>3.4.3 1564926 7 -5 49 -8 237 1 20060916 20060818 1 Wiz Elf Fem Cha
>Zvetiki2,killed by Famine, while fainted from lack of food (with the
>Amulet) {43500}
But that was just dumb. Anything can kill you if you do something dumb.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Epithumia, September - a weekend.