Death in Gehennom
Janis Papanagnou
the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
With the given death rate in Gehennom (that got apparent once again
with the current statistics discussions) there might be also simple
other possibilities how to make it more difficult. Currently the
average near zero death rate until the Sanctum will change only in
the Sanctum where you find both, large open areas, and a lot tougher
monsters guaranteed to be created. So ways to improve the situation
could be...
Open the maze area, either similar to the Catacombs level where you
find some room-like areas spread across the level, or yet much better
(IMO), make all maze passages/paths of _two squares width_, so that a
player can be attacked from more than two sides (which requires more
sophisticated tactics than currently), and with the additional advantage
that you need to explore less of the twisted maze area (less boredom).
A second possibility to make Gehennom more chilling would be similar
to the handling of the Elemental Planes; just increase the base values
of all monsters by some factor. (Excluding the Sanctum, which already
has the challange it needs.)
Janis
pen...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
> the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
> number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
>
> With the given death rate in Gehennom (that got apparent once again
> with the current statistics discussions) there might be also simple
> other possibilities how to make it more difficult. Currently the
> average near zero death rate until the Sanctum will change only in
> the Sanctum where you find both, large open areas, and a lot tougher
> monsters guaranteed to be created. So ways to improve the situation
> could be...
>
Some other possibilities:
* re-write major demons so that they do not respect Elbereth or scare
monster. That alone oughta make the encounters more exciting.
* as with the WoY, make a probability check every XXX turns for a
vanquished demon lord/prince. If successful, the demon lord /prince
is resurrected. Allow them to pursue the player through the dungeon
as WoY.
* give all demon lords/princes a "death in several turns attack" such
as illness.
* drastically cut down on the maze levels, up the placed treasure on
fixed levels.
--
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
> the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
> number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
> make all maze passages/paths of _two squares width_, so that a
> player can be attacked from more than two sides (which requires more
> sophisticated tactics than currently), and with the additional advantage
> that you need to explore less of the twisted maze area (less boredom).
I think this is a great idea.
Not that I complain about Gehennom; I see it rarely enough as it is! :-/
-Arthur
carlh...@gmail.com
wrote:
[snip]
>
> > * re-write major demons so that they do not respect Elbereth or scare
> > monster. That alone oughta make the encounters more exciting.
>
> And as one who hardly ever uses Elbereth or scare monsters anyway, I like
> this idea :-)
>
Eeek! I would have lost my about-to-ascend-monk last night if such
were the case. I was making my way back up to the fake Wizard's Tower
when a major demon summoned Yeenoghu; then Y summoned you-know-who!
It was tough at first with both of them because of the constant
confusion and persistent sickness. A scroll of scare monster allowed
me to punch Demogorgon's lights out. It sure did not seem very
sporting. I was on the upstairs so both Demons kept teleporting next
to me. I kept Yeenoghu alive because I needed his help with an errand
later in the game. Muhahaha.
Some options would be:
1) scared, persistent monsters will move away to frustrate melee. If
the character has a long-range weapon they will similarly move out of
range (or off of orthogal) of that weapon. Then they wait patiently
until the reason for being scared is removed.
2) if the scared monster has a range attack, it will move away to
frustrate the attack of the player and continue using magic or a
ranged attack.
3) Allow monsters to recognize the permanence of an engraved
Elbereth. If dusted or engraved and the player is not levitating then
the monster may try to tempt/outwait the player by staying close in
case of scuffing. but if the Elbereth is burned into the floor or the
player is levitating, then the monster will do one of the above
options.
BTW why don't demons/liches ever teleport to the downstairs?
Carl
j.allen....@gmail.com
if conventional killing isn't possible. There've been some games I
just suicided or gave up on in Gehennom, just because the boredom
factor was too much (having done all the levels and losing almost all
of them to a mind flayer attack, or otherwise being stuck having to
manually explore every inch for the staircases). A lot of my strategy
in my current games centers around just cutting through the tedium at
end game; making sure I can magic map most or all of the levels, det
treasure, and of course teleport with control.
Wide open spaces are always much harder to deal with in this game, but
more interesting.
Janis Papanagnou
> pen...@hotmail.com writes:
>
>>* re-write major demons so that they do not respect Elbereth or scare
>>monster. That alone oughta make the encounters more exciting.
I think that those rare scrolls should stay effective; their use is very
limited since you usually can't pick then up like you want and they are
bound (mostly) to the square you drop them.
Restricting Elbereth with major demons, OTOH - well..., why not.
> And as one who hardly ever uses Elbereth or scare monsters anyway, I like
> this idea :-)
(Rethinking about it, you can of course write your own scrolls of scare
monster; but nevertheless, you need to spend marker charges in that case,
and the scrolls get more important if Elbereth is restricted that way.)
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>>
>> Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
>> the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
>> number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
>
>> player can be attacked from more than two sides (which requires more
>> sophisticated tactics than currently), and with the additional advantage
>> that you need to explore less of the twisted maze area (less boredom).
>
> I think this is a great idea.
Thanks! :-)
> Not that I complain about Gehennom; I see it rarely enough as it is! :-/
I always accepted Gehennom as it is [*], but I can at least understand
that people find it boring; though I think that this specific proposed
change would add to the quality of gameplay even for me. :-}
Janis
[*] A curse on the inventor of the mysterious force, though! <grr> :-]
Ugly Newt
> On Mar 2, 2:54 am, Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjd...@hotmail.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> > pend...@hotmail.com writes:
> > > On Mar 1, 3:15 pm, Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag...@hotmail.com>
>
> [snip]
> >
> > > * re-write major demons so that they do not respect Elbereth or scare
> > > monster. That alone oughta make the encounters more exciting.
> Some options would be:
> 1) scared, persistent monsters will move away to frustrate melee. If
> the character has a long-range weapon they will similarly move out of
> range (or off of orthogal) of that weapon. Then they wait patiently
> until the reason for being scared is removed.
> 2) if the scared monster has a range attack, it will move away to
> frustrate the attack of the player and continue using magic or a
> ranged attack.
> 3) Allow monsters to recognize the permanence of an engraved
> Elbereth. If dusted or engraved and the player is not levitating then
> the monster may try to tempt/outwait the player by staying close in
> case of scuffing. but if the Elbereth is burned into the floor or the
> player is levitating, then the monster will do one of the above
> options.
If the monsters were this intelligent, there's no way the player could
ever beat them without some kind of instakill weapon, as the monster
would always be able to flee to avoid the fatal blow.
> BTW why don't demons/liches ever teleport to the downstairs?
The only way to beat these is to block off their escape route and force
them to confront you. How would you do that if they're allowed more
than one escape route? (Don't you find them frustrating enough as it
is? ;-) )
--
It's easy in your righteous quest to forget the golden rule
Your malice and your discontent will never see you through
Choose your battles carefully - is the fire all you can see?
Heal yourself before looking for enemies.
ran...@gmail.com
areas and the general difficulty, reduce the number of monotonous
never-sufficiently-reviled maze levels.
The problem is that it also does all kinds of other stuff; I find
myself stuck between Gehennom, which has a far superior dungeon, and
Nethack, which I find has more enjoyable gameplay.
> I've also wondered if the point of Gehennom was to bore you to death
> if conventional killing isn't possible. There've been some games I
> just suicided or gave up on in Gehennom, just because the boredom
> factor was too much
I haven't done this yet (although I've been tempted, oh how I have
been tempted) but I have left characters sitting in the Castle for
months while I played something else because I couldn't face the
thought of leeging Gehennom.
Richard Bos
> Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
> the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
> number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
No.
Get rid of the Mysterious Force. That's number 1. First do that; only
then is it worth thinking about other measures. They probably won't be
necessary after #1 has been done.
Richard
carlh...@gmail.com
FWIW, I like the Mysterious Force; anyone else? Otherwise the
ascension run through Gehennom would be too easy. My fastest
ascension, at 55k turns still had a stack of 20 or so teleport
scrolls, teleportitis, and spare wand zaps. With those I would have
been able to rocket through Gehennom were it not for the Mysterious
Force.
Although I wouldn't mind seeing more variety in the maze levels, it
does seem like part of the challenge is finding an easier way through
the many levels of Gehennom. I am rarely bored by the time I reach
Gehennom because I know that I'll be able to wrap up the particular
game in a few hours. With magic mapping and teleport, the levels do
not seem to me to be particularly difficult. I suppose that without
MM there would be more difficulty but I don't know because even my
barbarian was able to cast Magic Mapping (with a Helm of Brilliance
and Robe) sufficiently well.
I like the idea of making the maze corridors 2-wide. That would make
summon nasties all the more deadly.
Carl
carlh...@gmail.com
wrote:
> carlhnel...@gmail.com told the audient void (and rec.games.roguelike.nethack):
Yes, you're probably right. But even so, I wouldn't mind seeing some
monsters, particularly the stronger and smarter ones, have an extra
dose of self-preservation instinct.
>
> > BTW why don't demons/liches ever teleport to the downstairs?
>
> The only way to beat these is to block off their escape route and force
> them to confront you. How would you do that if they're allowed more
> than one escape route? (Don't you find them frustrating enough as it
> is? ;-) )
A boulder could be used to block off one escape route. Hmm, I suppose
that I don't find them quite frustrating enough. I feel that the
endgame monsters could be more menacing. That's just been my
experience though and perhaps it's a result of my slow playing style.
Perhaps when I start playing faster (and get better) I will start to
feel differently.
Carl
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
> On Mar 5, 1:07 pm, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
>> > the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
>> > number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> Get rid of the Mysterious Force. That's number 1. First do that; only
>> then is it worth thinking about other measures. They probably won't be
>> necessary after #1 has been done.
>>
>
> FWIW, I like the Mysterious Force; anyone else? Otherwise the
> ascension run through Gehennom would be too easy. My fastest
> ascension, at 55k turns still had a stack of 20 or so teleport
> scrolls, teleportitis, and spare wand zaps. With those I would have
> been able to rocket through Gehennom were it not for the Mysterious
> Force.
Slash'EM removes the mysterious force but makes the Amulet block
teleportation entirely. This actually seems like an excellent compromise.
-r.
sjde...@yahoo.com
> On 2007-03-05, carlh...@gmail.com <carlh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 1:07 pm, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> >> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
> >> > the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
> >> > number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
> >>
> >> No.
> >>
> >> Get rid of the Mysterious Force. That's number 1. First do that; only
> >> then is it worth thinking about other measures. They probably won't be
> >> necessary after #1 has been done.
> >>
> >
> > FWIW, I like the Mysterious Force; anyone else? Otherwise the
> > ascension run through Gehennom would be too easy. My fastest
> > ascension, at 55k turns still had a stack of 20 or so teleport
> > scrolls, teleportitis, and spare wand zaps. With those I would have
> > been able to rocket through Gehennom were it not for the Mysterious
> > Force.
Even without tons of additional scrolls, you generally have
teleportitis and enough scrolls to get through the levels pretty
quickly (walking the short paths, teleporting when things are worse,
and having teleportitis kick in periodically to help). I had enough
resources to avoid much trudging in my recent 18k turn ascension.
>
> Slash'EM removes the mysterious force but makes the Amulet block
> teleportation entirely. This actually seems like an excellent compromise.
That means either you get slowed down a ton or you waste time
beforehand digging out paths between all the stairs. I'd personally
rather have the force than block all teleports--the force has never
been all _that_ annoying for me aside from tossing you back through
asmodeous or something obnoxious like that.
Janis Papanagnou
> On 2007-03-05, carlh...@gmail.com <carlh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Mar 5, 1:07 pm, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
>>>Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
>>>>the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
>>>>number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
>>>
>>>then is it worth thinking about other measures. They probably won't be
>>>necessary after #1 has been done.
>>
>>FWIW, I like the Mysterious Force; anyone else?
Well, I pretty much like The Force to be there; I think it's a very
good way to tell the player that he's done some major sacrilege and
that some powerful force is now behind him to drag him down again,
and that there's no escape; "surrender"!
>> Otherwise the
>>ascension run through Gehennom would be too easy. My fastest
>>ascension, at 55k turns still had a stack of 20 or so teleport
>>scrolls, teleportitis, and spare wand zaps. With those I would have
>>been able to rocket through Gehennom were it not for the Mysterious
>>Force.
What I find annoying, though, are the non-teleport levels where you
*have* to walk from stair to stair; but only annoying in combination
with The Force. Any single effect alone wouldn't bother me too much.
Given that you need a lot teleports any ocasionally need to zap even
wands of teleportation that you have a better use for at Astral it's
another trade-off you have to decide; such trade-off's and different
options you have are part of what makes Nethack interesting.
> Slash'EM removes the mysterious force but makes the Amulet block
> teleportation entirely. This actually seems like an excellent compromise.
I'm not so enthusiastic as you are. While removing teleportation
would be okay per se, I'd miss The Force. I think it's too good an
idea to be sacrificed on that alternative of teleport restriction.
Janis
Martin Read
>Rachel Elizabeth Dillon wrote:
>> Slash'EM removes the mysterious force but makes the Amulet block
>> teleportation entirely. This actually seems like an excellent compromise.
>
>That means either you get slowed down a ton or you waste time
>beforehand digging out paths between all the stairs.
I don't mind excavating Gehennom on the way down.
>I'd personally
>rather have the force than block all teleports--the force has never
>been all _that_ annoying for me aside from tossing you back through
>asmodeous or something obnoxious like that.
I do, however, mind crossing the Juiblex level four times.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / impending, adj. - Fatal to small demons.
\/
David Damerell
>FWIW, I like the Mysterious Force; anyone else?
I quite enjoy the upwards run through Gehennom, yes. I find it's tense and
nervous.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Olethros, March - a weekend.
Joe Bednorz
<<1173132388....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>>:
The Heck^2 patch is just what you want. Drop-in replacement for
nhdat:
<http://www.multifoliate.com/nh/>
The press release is a classic in its own right:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/c56066a802ca4fbe/6468344bed1e23ae?lnk=st&q=%22heck%5E2+patch%22&rnum=1&hl=en#6468344bed1e23ae>
--
| I take what I'm given
All the Best | You exploit the game
Jove | He's an abusive cheater
Aki Lumme
"Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
viestissä:es7ca0$fcp$1...@online.de...
> Gehennom's boredom (as some people apparently see it) has often been
> the topic here, and various proposals have been made; to reduce the
> number of maze levels, to add more major demon lairs, and the like.
Two of my major dislikes are:
a) The Mysterious Force, and
b) The teleport-to-upstairs-and-heal of the major nasties
Suggested possibilities:
a) Remove it. Replace it with resurrecting major demons (actually,
I rather like that idea), or whatever. Simply repeating the same
thing over, and over, and over, and over again is not my definition
of fun.
b) I would like to see that monsters would use mana points
in a similar manner than the player does. (Now the nasties
have effectively infinite mana points.) This would give
some tactical possibilities that are based on a monster
spending all its mana points.
As I see it, now that a character is fully prepared, all that is
left is a boring and frustrating journey through Gehennom (twice),
to reach the Astral Plane, which in contrast is quite challenging.
What happens in practise is that my ascension-ready, 600 hp
characters are left at the castle, forever waiting for their games
to finish, since the end run is just plainly *not* fun...
YMMV though.
A.L.
sjde...@yahoo.com
> "Janis Papanagnou" <Janis_Papanag...@hotmail.com> kirjoitti
> viestissä:es7ca0$fc...@online.de...
Watch a speed run ttyrec. It's enlightening, and once you've seen a
couple and started to apply the techniques therein to Gehennom (play
safe and slow before that if you like) it's a lot more fun.
I still think it's a shortfall of the game that you have to dedicate
yourself to avoiding boredom (rather than to overcoming fun
challenges), but it's not insurmountable.
carlh...@gmail.com
Carl
Janis Papanagnou
>
> Watch a speed run ttyrec. It's enlightening, and once you've seen a
> couple and started to apply the techniques therein to Gehennom (play
> safe and slow before that if you like) it's a lot more fun.
What's the typical fast way to find Vlad's Tower if you don't have (or
don't have enough) magic mapping? For a speed run I suppose that's a
crucial factor and writing magic mapping a high priority? (And taking,
maybe, into account where Vlad's Tower is possible to be generated.)
A bit exotic might be the use of teleporting liches and ESP, I'd guess.
Janis
Raisse the Thaumaturge
> What's the typical fast way to find Vlad's Tower if you don't have (or
> don't have enough) magic mapping? For a speed run I suppose that's a
> crucial factor and writing magic mapping a high priority? (And taking,
> maybe, into account where Vlad's Tower is possible to be generated.)
> A bit exotic might be the use of teleporting liches and ESP, I'd guess.
Except that liches tend to teleport to the *up* up stairs, not to Vlad's
stairs.
I usually just blunder into it.
Raisse, killed by a master lich
--
ir...@valdyas.org LegoHack: http://www.valdyas.org/irina/nethack/
Status of Raisse (piously neutral): Level 8 HP 63(67) AC -3, fast.
Kent Paul Dolan
> I do, however, mind crossing the Juiblex level four times.
But if NetHack didn't occasionally make you break
out into another chorus of "if it wasn't for bad
luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all", what would
be the attraction of the game?
RNG as patsy? No, thanks.
Quantum valeat.
xanthian, not _really_ trying to be a pedant, I
just learned the Latin for FWIW from a Latin
phrasebook, and I'll be addicted to using it for
a while yet.
Richard Bos
> sjde...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > Watch a speed run ttyrec. It's enlightening, and once you've seen a
> > couple and started to apply the techniques therein to Gehennom (play
> > safe and slow before that if you like) it's a lot more fun.
>
> What's the typical fast way to find Vlad's Tower if you don't have (or
> don't have enough) magic mapping?
Paying the Valley priest for clairvoyance may not be speed-ascension
fast, but it's fast enough for normal games.
Richard
Janis Papanagnou
> Janis Papanagnou <Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>What's the typical fast way to find Vlad's Tower if you don't have (or
>>don't have enough) magic mapping?
>
> Paying the Valley priest for clairvoyance may not be speed-ascension
> fast, but it's fast enough for normal games.
I always think about that option but never actually apply that method.
The reason is that from former times where I've first done that there's
still some memories left that clairvoyance wouldn't be effective for a
sufficient long time. Having now a look into the sources it seems to
average around 750 turns; though, the timeout is also incremental so
one can donate a couple times in advance and seems thus an acceptable
choice.
Janis
David Damerell
>What's the typical fast way to find Vlad's Tower if you don't have (or
>don't have enough) magic mapping? For a speed run I suppose that's a
>crucial factor and writing magic mapping a high priority? (And taking,
>maybe, into account where Vlad's Tower is possible to be generated.)
I'm no speedrunner, but working out the exact level range for Vlad's
generally means the available supply of scrolls is sufficient, and
teleporting to the bottom with Asmodeus does for the rest of Gehennom.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Tuesday, March.
LWM
>
> Quantum valeat.
>
> xanthian, not _really_ trying to be a pedant, I just learned the Latin for
> FWIW from a Latin phrasebook, and I'll be addicted to using it for a while
> yet.
Having done translation (not involving latin, but rather Russian, which
isn't fun either), I'd be really careful about phrases such as "for what
it's worth." The connotations are *very* different from the actual
meaning for so many common phrases; the literal translations into other
languages are pretty silly sometimes. We need to hear the pope say this
during his mass or something to be sure it's legit...
The closest literal translation in russian I can come up with off the top
of my head is closer to "for as much as it costs" - probably not what you
had in mind ;-)
--LWM
Justin Hiltscher
Erat Demonstratum (I think). Which colloquially translates to 'Well,
duh!' ;)
Justin Hiltscher
--
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Janis Papanagnou
>>
> Or there's the Latin logical abbreviation 'Q.E.D.' which stands for Quot
> Erat Demonstratum (I think).
Quod erat demonstrandum. (Nitpicks me, someone who was very weak in Latin.)
> Which colloquially translates to 'Well,
> duh!' ;)
Sounds sound. :-)
Janis