Exercises for a NH beginner
Colin
practice in order to develop certain skills. What I'd like to do is
explicitly solicit different exercises for someone who knows the basics
of the game but hasn't developed the skills to reliably get through
various problems, and get them listed in a single thread.
Examples I've seen recently in other threads include playing pacifist
in order to learn to let your pet kill things, leading enemies into a
corrider so that you only have to fight them one at a time, and trying
to survive as long as possible without leaving the first n levels, in
order to get used to surviving without having to dive down further to
find food.
What I'm not as interested in are bigger objectives such as doing the
protection racket or digging for victory, because usually beginners
don't have the smaller skill set necessary in order to pull off those
strategies. However, it would be helpful to see those larger
strategies broken down into components (e.g., in order to pull off the
protection racket you need to be able to let your pet do the fighting,
rob shops for money/raid vaults, etc.)
So, what drills can you recommend to develop particular nethack skills?
Jove
>I've seen a lot of threads recommend particular tactics for players to
>practice in order to develop certain skills. What I'd like to do is
>explicitly solicit different exercises for someone who knows the basics
>of the game but hasn't developed the skills to reliably get through
>various problems, and get them listed in a single thread.
You're in luck. I've been thinking about exactly that. In this post
I'll cover ranged attacks. Rogues are perfect for that. In another
post I'll cover pets. Healers are perfect for that.
>
>What I'm not as interested in are bigger objectives such as doing the
>protection racket or digging for victory, because usually beginners
>don't have the smaller skill set necessary in order to pull off those
>strategies. However, it would be helpful to see those larger
>strategies broken down into components (e.g., in order to pull off the
>protection racket you need to be able to let your pet do the fighting,
>rob shops for money/raid vaults, etc.)
>
>So, what drills can you recommend to develop particular nethack skills?
The first skill to work on is using ranged attacks. Luckily the Rogue
class is set up for this. A Rogue's ranged attack is good enough to
carry through the whole game. (If you don't improve your
armor/character you'll be an eggshell with a hammer, though.)
"Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD
I finally understood that throwing daggers and become expert in
daggers can save your life." - Davyduck
"I have to thank you for pointing out the use of daggers and other
missiles. Remembering your advice I ascended my first rogue and ranger.
=)" - *Riina*
"Just wanted to say thanks all for the advice. I got Lothar down to the
vibrating square without breaking a sweat, started sorting my stash to
make the run, and started getting bored - so I put that game on hold (I
took extensive notes, it shouldn't be hard to pick it up again) and am
working on another rogue! Thanks especially to Jove - the secret REALLY
IS throwing early and often! So cool... =)" - SMG
Play a Rogue.
- Throw daggers early and often, starting at maximum range.
- Max range is Str/2.
- #enhance daggers asap.
- Rogues get XL/2 backstab bonus on scared monsters.
- Scare monsters with
- Elbereth
- mirror
- tooled horn
- leather drum
- drum of earthquake
- scroll of scare monster
- spell of scare monster
- stab with Magicbane
- Fight in a coaligned temple.
- Do NOT twoweapon.
- Lose the backstab bonus when you twoweapon
- Can't wear a shield when twoweaponing.
Tips: Turn on autoquiver and use the 'f' command to fire daggers.
#adjust your largest stack to 'Q' for quick quivering: 'QQ'
Add the following lines to your NetHack options file.
(defaults.nh on MS Windows.)
autopickup_exceptions="<*dagger*"
OPTIONS=autopickup
OPTIONS=autoquiver
What's the downside? Wait until you do the Quest. (hehehe)
--
Welcome to NetHack. | I take what I'm given.
| You exploit the game.
All the best, | He's an abusive cheater.
Jove (Joe Bednorz)
Jove
As promised in my other follow up, here's how to practice with pets by
playing a Healer:
Pets are more likely to move toward you if:
- They can see you
- You're two squares or less away.
- You're carrying in open inventory
- a tripe ration
- a meatball
Practice leading your pets around the level. Remember, if they won't
stay close you to you, you've got to stay close to them. They can't
protect you if they're not close.
Once you get two or three pets you only need to keep one or two by
you. Let the other pet roam and clear out the level. You can safely
explore while they play with their food.
- let your pet(s) kill small monsters early to build them up.
- stand on dust Elbereth while pet(s) kills monsters.
- This will keep your level lower
- Easier monsters
- cheaper divine protection.
Skill at leading pets has many other applications:
- leading nurses to safe nooks for dancing
- leading wraiths off of graveyard levels so they'll leave a corpse.
- leading giant mummies/zombies ditto
- leading trolls loaded with loot to an altar/store
- self portable luggage.
- leading monsters to altar
- for sacrifice
- especially monsters too heavy to carry as corpses.
- Fresher corpse.
- to buc id all their loot.
- leading soldiers in Ft. Ludios to the portal
- Fight them a few at a time once through the portal.
- lead a hostile monster onto a trap
- beartrap
- hole
- pit
- trapdoor
- rolling boulder
Healer.txt
Play a healer to have great pets skills/items early, by Jove.
A Healer:
- Starts with poison resistance.
- Should never starve with spell of stone to flesh
- Use on boulders.
- Careful of overdoing it.
- Save food rations for starving pets.
- Will have enough food for an army of pets.
- Let the pets clear the level while you explore.
- Starting stethoscope, healing spells, and spell of stone to flesh
are great for an army of pets. (Use stethoscope to know when
to use healing spells on pets.)
- Spell of stone to flesh on rocks create meatballs.
- Pets will stick close if you're carrying a meatball in open
inventory.
- They're also great for taming dogs and cats.
- Unlimited meatballs means training dogs/cats to steal. See
"Training your pets to steal from shops, by Peter Snelling,
Boudewijn Waijers and Bryan Butler." at
<http://www.helsinki.fi/~vviitane/spoilers/pets>
- Use your pet to credit clone. See Kent Paul Dolan's
Credit Cloning Tutorial at:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/f4db215ae79e7728?hl=en&>
- Take the money and run...to the nearest priest.
- Do the modified protection racket. Summary:
- Use pets and keep XL a little lower so divine protection is
cheaper.
- Use found rocks.
- Break boulders to get rocks. Break boulders with:
- Spell of force bolt
- wand of striking
- 'a'pply a pickaxe
- 'a'pply a mattock
- Use starting apples for taming ponies, horses and warhorses.
- Don't waste apples trying to keep horses from starving.
- 40 nutrition of apples is too low for that.
- A starving horse will eat a food ration.
- Use stupid pet trick to keep horses alive.
- Leave level until horse would have starved
- when you return horse will be peaceful/hostile.
- retame with a single apple.
- Starting stethoscope can be used to detect secret doors and hidden
corridors. Can also monitor Hp of hostile monsters.
- Displace a pet ahead of you into unexplored corridors.
Healers should use their pets as ranged weapons. Stone to flesh on
rocks gives pet treats. Stone to flesh on boulders means never
starving (though you might choke).
Don't be afraid to leave pets behind on a level. You can always
retame them with your infinite supply of meatballs. Even horses can be
made peaceful by throwing a meatball to them. Tip: #adjust meatballs to
't' for easy throwing 'tt'.
Healers can get to skilled with daggers.
- See Rogue hints in other post.
- They all apply except for backstab.
- Ranged attack.
- That's 1.5 daggers per fling.
- Throw daggers early and often.
"Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD
I finally understood that throwing daggers and become expert in
daggers can save your life." - Davyduck
"I have to thank you for pointing out the use of daggers and other
missiles. Remembering your advice I ascended my first rogue and ranger.
=)" - *Riina*
--
Jove
Start Nethack in Wizard mode for testing.
REM Start nethack in wizard mode
SET WIZKIT=wizkit.txt
C:
CD \MyApps\Nethack\wizmode
nethack -u wizard -D %1 %2 %3 %4 %5 %6 %7 %8 %9
Engrave some Elbereths in the dust. Check them with ':'. If they're
good enough, drop a single gold piece on them. Step off.
"E- Elbereth<RET>"
"E- Elbereth<RET>"
"E- Elbereth<RET>"
':'
'd1$'
'j'
Hit-Hit-Move-Wait on slow monsters. All forms of mimics are favorite.
'llh.'
Using a pet to buc id:
- lay a line of single stacks complete across a narrow lit room.
- stand with your pet on the other side of the line of objects
- Fluffy will try to move to you.
- When Fluffy ends a turn on one of the objects note well any
messages. "Fluffy moves only reluctantly" means the item is
cursed.
- #name that item individually with "c".
- If there's no message, name the item individually "u".
Alternatively, put a single item in front of a doorway and stand
behind it with your pet on the other side. Watch your pet step on the
item and check for "reluctantly" as a curse indicator.
BUC id is critical for ring and armor identification. It's not safe
to try on cursed rings and armor. You'll end up with rings named like
this: "a ring called brass-$100 named u". You can then go to the ring
spoiler to see what rings it could possibly be. Then figure out how to
test that. Armor you test by trying on. Enchantment will automatically
be identified.
Try on every single non-cursed piece of armor you find. A single +4
enchantment can make the very early game. Check enough accessory armor
and you'll probably find 4 pieces of different types of armor with +1
enchantment each: Boots, helmet, shield, body armor. There's your +4.
In shops:
- Stand on an item
- #chat to get the asking price
- pick up the item
- name the item non-indivdually with the asking price and current Cha.
Also in shops:
- Drop an item the shop to get an offer on it.
- Pick up and drop again for another offer.
- Repeat until two different prices have been offered.
- Double the higher offer
- Non-individually name the item with the higher offer.
- Note that wands, rings, spellbooks will also need to have the
description as part of the name. E.g. "silver-$100"
- Stackable weapons can only be named individually
E.g. daggers named "$2"
Again in shops:
- Throw a rock down the length of each row in the store, checking for
mimics.
- Practice hit-hit-move-wait against each mimic found.
Early spellcasters are badly hampered by wearing shields, even small
shields. #adjust your shield to 'T' and practice
- removing it, 'TT'
- casting a spell, 'Za<direction>'
- then re-wearing it. 'WT'
Practice the inventory stare. Just sit and stare at your inventory,
thinking about each item and when, where, and how you'd use it. Use the
'/n' command to look unfamiliar items up in the database.
Play wizards. Research each starting spell in the spell spoilers.
Topi Linkala
> Pets are more likely to move toward you if:
> - They can see you
> - You're two squares or less away.
> - You're carrying in open inventory
> - a tripe ration
> - a meatball
What about herbivores? Shouldn't you have herbivore treat in open
inventory for it to work?
Topi
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
Topi Linkala
> - Starting stethoscope can be used to detect secret doors and hidden
> corridors. Can also monitor Hp of hostile monsters.
Can also monitor Hp of pets. Cast healing if the pet needs it. Remember
that healing is the cheapest healing-class spell, so using it you can
exercise the class easily.
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>
>> Pets are more likely to move toward you if:
>> - They can see you
>> - You're two squares or less away.
>> - You're carrying in open inventory
>> - a tripe ration
>> - a meatball
>
>What about herbivores? Shouldn't you have herbivore treat in open
>inventory for it to work?
>
Probably. If there are any herbivore treats a healer's starting
apples might qualify. That also raises the question of how to train
horses to steal. If there are no herbivore treats then it can't be
done.
This is a hazy area in my knowledge. Does anyone have definitive
information? If so maybe it could be added to the pet spoilers on Eva
Myers' NetHack site.
Another aspect is that warhorses become powerful enough to attack
shopkeepers and priests - and win. This can be more trouble than it's
worth. Careful pet management of warhorses around priests is called
for. (Locking them into a room in MineTown with a food ration has
worked for me before.)
From: <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/mon1-343.txt>
SPECIES LEV SPD AC MR ATTACKS AVG DMG
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~~ ~~~~~~~ -------
d little dog 2 18 6 0 1d6 3.5
d dog 4 16 5 0 1d6 3.5
d large dog 6 15 4 0 2d4 5.0
f kitten 2 18 6 0 1d6 3.5
f housecat 4 16 5 0 1d6 3.5
f large cat 6 15 4 0 2d4 5.0
u pony 3 16 6 0 1d6 1d2 5.0
u horse 5 20 5 0 1d8 1d3 6.5
u warhorse 7 24 4 0 1d10 1d4 8.0
The above shows that horses are the best pets in terms of speed, Hp,
and damage dealt. A pony is almost as good as a large dog/cat.
Interestingly, dogs and cats get slower as they grow up, while horses
get faster. The extra speed and damage means a warhorse is probably
twice as effective as a large dog/cat. This is balanced by the fact
that a healer cannot manufacture horse tamers/treats the way healers can
manufacture meatballs.
Which brings up another effective healer technique. Stand on Elbereth
and cast healing spells on pets. This can work well in taking out the
Minetown watch. Since they're peaceful you don't even need to worry
about standing on Elbereth. (Which is good, since @s don't respect
Elbereth.)
Good catch Topi. Thanks.
Topi Linkala
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:41:44 +0300, Topi Linkala wrote:
>
>
>>Jove wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Pets are more likely to move toward you if:
>>> - They can see you
>>> - You're two squares or less away.
>>> - You're carrying in open inventory
>>> - a tripe ration
>>> - a meatball
>>
>>What about herbivores? Shouldn't you have herbivore treat in open
>>inventory for it to work?
>>
>
>
> Probably. If there are any herbivore treats a healer's starting
> apples might qualify. That also raises the question of how to train
> horses to steal. If there are no herbivore treats then it can't be
> done.
>
> This is a hazy area in my knowledge. Does anyone have definitive
> information? If so maybe it could be added to the pet spoilers on Eva
> Myers' NetHack site.
For horses apples and carrots are treats. Generally apples and carrots
are treats to all herbivores (and omnivores), all Y's consider bananas
also treats.
David Damerell
>Jove wrote:
>> - Starting stethoscope can be used to detect secret doors and hidden
>> corridors. Can also monitor Hp of hostile monsters.
>Can also monitor Hp of pets. Cast healing if the pet needs it. Remember
>that healing is the cheapest healing-class spell, so using it you can
>exercise the class easily.
The mana cost makes very little difference - only the fact that it's
always possible to use mana down to <5 makes exercising easier. The skill
advancement of a spell casting is proportional to the mana cost.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Monday, September.
Topi Linkala
> Quoting Topi Linkala <n...@iki.fi>:
>
>>Jove wrote:
>>
>>> - Starting stethoscope can be used to detect secret doors and hidden
>>> corridors. Can also monitor Hp of hostile monsters.
>>
>>Can also monitor Hp of pets. Cast healing if the pet needs it. Remember
>>that healing is the cheapest healing-class spell, so using it you can
>>exercise the class easily.
>
>
> The mana cost makes very little difference - only the fact that it's
> always possible to use mana down to <5 makes exercising easier. The skill
> advancement of a spell casting is proportional to the mana cost.
Yes, but only succesful casting excersises. Healing is 0%, extra healing
and stone to flesh are normally >0% when starting. So practising with
healing is surer way to exercise.
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Quoting Topi Linkala <n...@iki.fi>:
>>>Can also monitor Hp of pets. Cast healing if the pet needs it. Remember
>>>that healing is the cheapest healing-class spell, so using it you can
>>>exercise the class easily.
>>The mana cost makes very little difference - only the fact that it's
>>always possible to use mana down to <5 makes exercising easier. The skill
>>advancement of a spell casting is proportional to the mana cost.
>Yes, but only succesful casting excersises. Healing is 0%, extra healing
>and stone to flesh are normally >0% when starting. So practising with
>healing is surer way to exercise.
That is true, but the characteristic of healing that makes it the surer
way is that it is easier, not that it is the cheapest, although these
happen to be closely related. With higher level spells at 0% one can
reduce the time used (both turns and wallclock) in spell exercising and
also a higher-level spell with a special difficulty may be a better choice
for exercising spells. It is not a good idea to say "cheapest" because the
causal connection implied is not present.
Topi Linkala
This was discussion of healer who uses pets to kill monsters. So she's
staying low level and thus cannot get extra healing nor flesh to stone
to 0% up until shes leveled one level and used healing so that she can
level up healing spells.
Corey
Re: Re: Exercises for a NH beginner
By: Jove to rec.games.roguelike.nethack on Wed Sep 20 2006 10:31 am
> >> - a meatball
Meatballs in the game?
What, are the Orcs goombas?
Matt Frisch
<co...@tsgc.synchro.net.remove-vl0-this> scribed into the ether:
Casting stone to flesh on rocks turns them into meatballs. Gems too, if
memory serves (but not glass...an effective if expensive way to tell gems
apart from glass)
Jove
>
>This was discussion of healer who uses pets to kill monsters. So she's
>staying low level and thus cannot get extra healing nor flesh to stone
>to 0% up until shes leveled one level and used healing so that she can
>level up healing spells.
I did not mean to suggest that the player keep XL artificially low.
Using pets by no means requires playing the extreme protection racket.
I've used pets in countless games without ever trying the extreme
protection racket. Using pets does naturally result in slightly lower
XL for the player. That result was noted mostly as a benefit, not as a
goal.
My suggestions were: (Quote from original post re-inserted here.
Quote level guessed at.)
>>>> - let your pet(s) kill small monsters early to build them up.
>>>> - stand on dust Elbereth while pet(s) kills monsters.
>>>> - This will keep your level lower
>>>> - Easier monsters
>>>> - cheaper divine protection.
Note that the implication is that using pets will naturally result in
lower player XL, with double benefits. "Easier monsters" in my
experience is the better benefit. Both you and your pets will benefit
from the easier monsters. Your pets will also be bigger and stronger as
a result.
It's an early snowball effect. I think this unforeseen and unnoticed
effect is the major benefit to using pets. It occurs naturally with no
extra effort on the part of the player.
Losing a pet can mean retreating upwards before reaching Sokoban.
It's happened to me.
The modified protection racket was explicitly recommended, and
described as follows:
>>>> - Do the modified protection racket. Summary:
>>>> - Use pets and keep XL a little lower so divine protection is
>>>> cheaper.
That certainly shouldn't hamper spell casting. It's also a natural
result of using pets. Again, no major effort to restrict XL was
recommended. Just don't put extra effort into gaining levels. Take
advantage of the naturally lower XL that results from extensive pet use.
Hence also the recommendation to use daggers. That certainly won't
keep XL artificially low. (Quote from original post re-inserted here.
Quote level guessed at.)
>>>> Healers can get to skilled with daggers.
>>>> - See Rogue hints in other post.
>>>> - They all apply except for backstab.
>>>> - Ranged attack.
>>>> - That's 1.5 daggers per fling.
>>>> - Throw daggers early and often.
>>>>
>>>> "Well, after 4 years playing nethack, 6 ascensions, millions of SD
>>>> I finally understood that throwing daggers and become expert in
>>>> daggers can save your life." - Davyduck
>>>>
>>>> "I have to thank you for pointing out the use of daggers and other
>>>> missiles. Remembering your advice I ascended my first rogue and ranger.
>>>> =)" - *Riina*
>>>> --
That's certainly not a recommendation consistent with the extreme
protection racket.
The extreme protection racket would be a separate exercise and
certainly not a good exercise for "a NH beginner." Just making good use
of pets is hard enough without striving for XL:1 and #quitting if you
reach XL:2. (If you don't quit at XL:2 you're playing the modified
protection racket anyway.)
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>for exercising spells. It is not a good idea to say "cheapest" because the
>>causal connection implied is not present.
>This was discussion of healer who uses pets to kill monsters.
Yes - I know. All I'm saying is, don't say "cheapest" because it is not
the cheapness of healing that makes it the right choice for exercising the
skill.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Tuesday, September.
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
"Skills" and "tactics" are different. Other people have done very good
descriptions of skills you want, but there haven't been many detailed
tactical descriptions. This will by no means be a comprehensive list of
combat tactics, but hopefully it will be useful. I'll start with a few
suggestions and fill in more after I see what other people suggest, if
anything. Criticism of these techniques is also welcome.
Consider this scenario:
-------- ---------
|......| A |.......|
|...@d.-#########...aa...|
|.<....| |.......|
-------- ---------
It's early enough in the game that you have no or few missile weapons.
In fact, it's DL1 --- that upstair is of no use to you. You wouldn't get
ants on DL1 normally, but I'm just using ants in the examples since
we hate ants, yes? Good. OK. Your little dog is better at following you
than being led. You've got more than ten spaces between you and the ants.
You want the dog between you and the ants. What I would do is walk to the
point below letter A until my dog was in the hallway, then back up,
displace the dog into the ants, and then close the door. When you stop
hearing noise, open the door. If you have a sad feeling, drop some dust
Elbereths, open the door, and hope for the best. (This is also an example
of using hallways and doors.)
But what about this situation, in a single room or mines-like environment
where you don't have terrain protection?
------------
|..........|
|.....@+...|
+....hu*...|
|..........|
|..........|
------------
That h isn't a mind flayer --- but it is a dwarf lord. Gusty, your
faithful and spunky pony, has just jumped greedily on a food ration
dropped by the last dwarf she killed. Just spoils of war? Indeed, but
you're left in a bind, since your HP are low. Until she stops chowing
down on that veggie treat, you're trapped in a cave with a psychotic
axe-wielding small letter! One option is of course to engrave a dust
Elbereth, and in fact just continue to engrave dust Elbereths, but maybe
you are playing illiterate or maybe you aren't willing to count on the
(70%?) chance or maybe you're one of those people who talks all big
about not using Elbereth. Or maybe you just don't want the Axe-Man to
flee where Gusty won't get him.
Pop quiz: Do you jump on the spellbook or on the violet gem? Give up? (I
hope not.) Jump onto the violet gem! If this were a chess game, this would
be called "taking the opposition." If you step onto the spellbook, the
dwarf can move where you were, forcing you away from Gusty and ultimately
toward a corner. From the gem, though, you can always retreat to the
square below Gusty if the dwarf follows. If the dwarf moves up a square,
move down a square; then he really can't get you anytime soon. (In chess,
if the dwarf stepped back, you would have to step back instead, taking
the "distant opposition," but in Nethack you can choose not to take a
turn and this is not necessarily. Stick by your pony.)
This technique also works with terrain features other than pets ---
boulders, trapped squares. (The monster may walk onto the trap, but
that can't really go badly for you unless it is a polytrap.) One caveat,
though: the opposition may be worse than the alternative (trying to stay
a knight's move away and hoping for your pet to wake up, or hoping to
dodge all the way to a stairwell, or something) if your opponent has
missile weapons to use on you. Don't take the opposition against a black
dragon!
(Oh and this doesn't work so well if the monster is faster than you.
Check the monsters spoiler for details. All rights reserved. Void where
prohibited. This technique comes with no guarantee for mercantibility
or fitness for a particular purpose.)
Or consider the following real-life example that came up for me this
morning:
-------- ------
|<|>...---....|
|^|-.`.....`..|
|^||..``|.`.`.|
|^||....|.....|
|^|------.----|
|^| |......|
|.------...=..|
|....@$OOOO...|
|?.-----......|
---- --------
The @ is me, a neutral human Tourist. My pets had all died in the line of
fire (one literally in the line of fire coming out of a red naga) and I
was carrying seven +2 darts, 2 uncursed darts, and an assortment of six
or seven daggers. Daggers at skilled, darts at basic. Those four ogres
all had clubs and, despite my AC of -3, were pouding me into the ground.
I retreated into the corridor, dropped a whole pile of Elbereth, and
then though "I can stand on the Elbereth, whack them once, and then make
ten more, or..." I dropped a gold piece, made sure I had some Elbereth
left, and then took a step back.
From here, I was almost completely safe: monsters would generate out of
sight when possible, and I could see most of the squares behind me. I
didn't have enough missile weapons to kill all of the ogres, but that
was just fine, because the suckers got hit by them, picked them up,
and threw them back. Unfortunately for them, I was better at this game
than they were. The moral of the story: Elbereth is often more useful
when you're _not_ standing on it, since no one can mess up your engraving.
I'm sure there are others, but it took me a long time to write these up,
so I am going to stop for now.
Hope this helps,
-r.
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Rachel Elizabeth Dillon wrote:
>
> "Skills" and "tactics" are different. Other people have done very good
> descriptions of skills you want, but there haven't been many detailed
> tactical descriptions. This will by no means be a comprehensive list of
> combat tactics, but hopefully it will be useful. I'll start with a few
> suggestions and fill in more after I see what other people suggest, if
> anything. Criticism of these techniques is also welcome.
Okay. (Take all this with a grain of salt; my tactical brilliance
has certainly never helped me ascend. ;)
> Consider this scenario:
>
> -------- ---------
> |......| A |.......|
> |...@d.-#########...aa...|
> |.<....| |.......|
> -------- ---------
>
> It's early enough in the game that you have no or few missile weapons.
> In fact, it's DL1 --- that upstair is of no use to you. You wouldn't get
> ants on DL1 normally, but I'm just using ants in the examples since
> we hate ants, yes? Good. OK. Your little dog is better at following you
> than being led. You've got more than ten spaces between you and the ants.
> You want the dog between you and the ants. What I would do is walk to the
> point below letter A until my dog was in the hallway, then back up,
> displace the dog into the ants, and then close the door. When you stop
> hearing noise, open the door. If you have a sad feeling, drop some dust
> Elbereths, open the door, and hope for the best. (This is also an example
> of using hallways and doors.)
Better, IMO: Do exactly what you said, except do /not/ leave the hallway
and do /not/ close the door. Then, you can be engraving Elbereth while
your dog is fighting; you can see when your dog is having trouble and
maybe even do something to heal it; and if your dog does get killed, you
are already standing in the hallway so only one ant can get to you.
If there were a door on the other side of your current room, I might
agree that you'd want to get fairly close to that exit, in case you need
to retreat. But in that case, you should probably be retreating already,
and not wasting time trying to kill the ants. (Closing the door is a
good idea in that case, though.)
> -------- ------
> |<|>...---....|
> |^|-.`.....`..|
> |^||..``|.`.`.|
> |^||....|.....|
> |^|------.----|
> |^| |......|
> |.------...=..|
> |....@$OOOO...|
> |?.-----......|
> ---- --------
[snip]
> The moral of the story: Elbereth is often more useful
> when you're _not_ standing on it, since no one can mess up your engraving.
Good advice!
-Arthur
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
I think you make a very good point about being able to see your dog. If
you have tools (potions of healing) to heal him with if he stops fighting,
or a stethoscope to watch him with, it is probably worth leaving the
door open. If you stay inside and the dog dies, though, you can't get out
and close the door in time (at least if the monsters are actually faster
than you, you could with something slower). And if you stay right to the
left of the door and the dog dies on the door, you won't get it closed at
all. I'm not sure what the best positioning is here. It probably depends
on other factors, like what's in your room and where else you can go.
> If there were a door on the other side of your current room, I might
> agree that you'd want to get fairly close to that exit, in case you need
> to retreat. But in that case, you should probably be retreating already,
> and not wasting time trying to kill the ants. (Closing the door is a
> good idea in that case, though.)
Depends on what is to the other side of the ants :)
Thanks for the commentary! (Original poster, is this the sort of thing
you were looking for?)
-r.
Colin
> you were looking for?)
Yes, this is great stuff so far. Keep the suggestions coming!
Ilmari Karonen
>
> Consider this scenario:
>
> -------- ---------
> |......| A |.......|
> |...@d.-#########...aa...|
> |.<....| |.......|
> -------- ---------
>
> It's early enough in the game that you have no or few missile weapons.
> In fact, it's DL1 --- that upstair is of no use to you. You wouldn't get
> ants on DL1 normally, but I'm just using ants in the examples since
> we hate ants, yes?
...my immediate reaction at this point being: "Never mind the *ants*,
who let that big A in there and is it hostile?" :-)
Nice examples, though.
--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
(Note new username -- the old one will stop working shortly.)
jayt...@googlemail.com
> "Skills" and "tactics" are different. Other people have done very good
> descriptions of skills you want, but there haven't been many detailed
> tactical descriptions. This will by no means be a comprehensive list of
> combat tactics, but hopefully it will be useful. I'll start with a few
> suggestions and fill in more after I see what other people suggest, if
> anything. Criticism of these techniques is also welcome.
Along these lines, there are some tactical movement tips here:
http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Movement_tactics
--
Regards,
James
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon
Here are a few more:
* Dealing with tight spaces
-------
|.....|
--....|
--.---
|-@d|
|*..|
|-aa|
If you had the time to sneak into that crack to take the ants one at a
time, you'd probably be all set. (You would do this either by dropping
unnecessary stuff or by throwing non-breakables through the hole and then
following them inside.) Unfortunately, let's assume you can't just drop
a bag and hop in, and have to do something else. Here's my suggestion:
rather than not leave the square in order to keep the dog from getting
into the useless area (walking onto the * is appealing if the ants come
straight up, as you could try to move around them to another choke point
while the pet attacks), spend your turn dropping a cursed item. That way
you can flee but keep your pet closer to the ants.
This strategy doesn't come up that much, as often you are better off
dropping Elbereth, but dropping cursed items is in general a useful
pet management skill, and if the monster is something slower than ants,
this can actually be very useful. I've mostly used it in preparation for
monsters showing up eventually rather than right away in combat, but I
can see it being useful on the spot.
* Dig for actual victory
------- ---------
|..HHH| |.......|
|.<@A.-*######$#######......>.|
|...HH| |.......|
------- ---------
You've got a pet Archon, and you're facing five minotaurs. They don't
respect Elbereth! (When this happened to me in a real game, it was a
pet large dog and five elves, but the @ would have been confusing,
and besides, this sounds cooler.) Your character can handle a hit or two,
but there's no way that you can just stand there and take it. If you could
get to the * square, you could close the door, but the minotaurs would
probably follow you. From the $ you could zap a wand of locking, though,
or cast wizard lock, and it's likely far enough away from the action that
no one would come to join you.
You could try to displace the Archon and run for the door. It _might_
work. Or you could run upstairs, dig back down, and let the Archon do
the work for you. "You hear some noises in the distance." This is risky
because you don't know exactly where you will end up, but if you've
already explored around, it's a fine way to go. I've used this to great
effect with non-Elbereth-respecting monsters.
Even if you don't have a pet Archon or pet at all, meeting the minotaurs
in the hallway will be better than where you are --- you get a nice long
corridor to use missile weapons along and then you face one at a time.
The last of the elves actually took out my pet, and they were standing on
all of my missile weapons; on my way back down I had grabbed a stack of
23 rocks and just threw them at the approaching elf and killed it with my
dagger.
* Bash the Balrog
(those are steps, not warning numbers)
--------
|......|
|.5678.|
|4.....|
|3@1.&.|
|.2....|
|......|
--------
If you've ever read any Tolkien, or seen the movies, you probably think
of a balrog as a fearsome opponent. "This foe is beyond any of you!"
Well, not in nethack. In nethack, a balrog is _slow_: speed 5. You are
normally speed 12. You will always get at least two moves to its one.
Here is how you kill a balrog once you have led it into a large room:
* Get one square away from the balrog in the center of the room (step 1
on the map above).
* Wait for the balrog to move next to you, hit it once, walk to 2.
* Wait for the balrog to move next to you, hit it once, walk to 3.
* Without hitting the balrog, move to 4 and then to 5. You should be
above the balrog, and it should move up to the square below you.
* Without hitting the balrog, move to 6, then move to 7.
* You should be able to hit the balrog again and then move to a safe
square, repeating this process until it dies.
Practice this in wizard mode a couple of times. It's fun. (Note that
balrogs are often generated with missile weapons. This might put a crimp
in your plans at level 1. Also, if you find a bonesfile pet balrog, be
careful: it might have been zapped with a wand of speed monster.)
More importantly, it's good practice for dealing with slow monsters in
general; if you can take out a balrog without getting hit with an XL 1
character, you can take out a whole lot of things.
Other monsters with speed 6 or slower (and without passive attacks
like acid blobs or gelatinous cubes): giant beetle, quivering blob,
cockatrice, dwarf (lord and king also), manes, lemure, all kobolds,
all mimics, goblin, Mordor orc, orc-captain, wumpus, rock mole,
woodchuck, centipede, lurker above, trapper, long worm, baby worm,
earth elemental, water elemental, gnome, giant, stone giant, lich,
puddings, green slime, python, umber hulk, weaker zombies, ghoul,
leather-wood-glass-stone-iron golems, nurse, ghost, hezrou, ice devil,
pit fiend, all : except for crocodile and salamander. Many of these are
things you will run into early.
Hobbits, bubgears, other orcs, rothes, mumakil, long worms, zruty,
Aleaxes, all dragons and baby dragons, gnome lords, demiliches, kobold
mummies, garter snakes, xorn, stronger zombies, rope-gold-flesh-clay
golems, horned devils, nalfshenees, and crocodiles all have speed 7-9,
so you can outrun them in the long run too, but they will hit you
occasionally if you try to play Bash the Balrog. (unless you are
very fast!)
As always, comments welcome, and hope this helps,
-r.
Colin
Rachel Elizabeth Dillon wrote:
> ------- ---------
> |..HHH| |.......|
> |.<@A.-*######$#######......>.|
> |...HH| |.......|
> ------- ---------
>
For going up the stairs and then digging down, do you just count the
spaces from the stairs to where you want to end up (in this example, go
right of the stairs 12 spots) and then dig? What happens if you dig
down to a place where there is neither corridor nor room in the level
below?
Arthur J. O'Dwyer
Try it. I promise it won't kill you.
(Spoiler: jura lbh qvt qbja, lbh svaq hc va n enaqbz fcbg naljnl.
Gurer'f ab jnl gb sbepr lbhefrys gb pbzr qbja va n cnegvphyne fcbg,
rkprcg znlor gb svyy gur jubyr ybjre yriry jvgu obhyqref be zbafgref.
Nyfb, fbzrgvzrf lbh'yy snyy zber guna bar yriry.)
-Arthur