What's the most difficult class?
sa...@everdying.remove.com
class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
to say I've never had much success with Monks.
Sebastian Hungerecker
Many think tourists and healers are hard, but I never had much troubles
with healers - my second ascension was one. Also many people think of
tourists as powerful because they have good skills and a kick-ass quest
artifact.
--
"Entjungferung ist blutig und macht Spaß, also ist es Metal. Punkt."
-- Evil_Dragon über die Angebrachtheit des Namens Defloration
für eine Death-Metal-Band
sa...@everdying.remove.com
<sep...@web.de> wrote:
>sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
>> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
>> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
>> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
>
>Many think tourists and healers are hard, but I never had much troubles
>with healers - my second ascension was one. Also many people think of
>tourists as powerful because they have good skills and a kick-ass quest
>artifact.
I like healers, my third (and latest) ascension was one, too. :) Sure,
playing a Healer requires patience in the early game, especially if
you're gonna do the protection racket, but things tend to get quite
alot easier when you find a decent weapon and some suitable armor.
Plus, after getting the Staff, you regenerate all the time.
David Damerell
>I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful class
You could have fooled me. As the quote goes, put a gun against my head and
tell me to ascend or die with my character, Valkyrie, please.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Monday, April.
David Damerell
>I like healers, my third (and latest) ascension was one, too. :) Sure,
>playing a Healer requires patience in the early game, especially if
>you're gonna do the protection racket, but things tend to get quite
>alot easier when you find a decent weapon and some suitable armor.
Any class can be easy when it's over the infant mortality stage. Late-game
power is not nearly as important as early survivability.
>Plus, after getting the Staff, you regenerate all the time.
Which is not all that much late-game next to inherent regeneration.
NateSNorman
>class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
>to say I've never had much success with Monks.
I find Monks to be a very effective class. They are very good
spellcasters and gain an intrinsic every other level up until level 17.
Intrinsic speed and sleep resist at the beginning, plus they always
come with either healing, protection or sleep make them very good early
game characters. Mid game the instrinsic warning and searching make
them very convenient. Plus they have my favorite quest artifact (hmm
well, maybe tied with Eye of Aethiopica).
In my opinion healer is the most difficult. They have to deal with pets
and aren't very good at ranged combat at all, so I usually die a very
quick death with them.
sjde...@yahoo.com
> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
Monks are far and away the hardest, IMO. Healers next.
Easy:
Valk
Barb
Samurai
Knight
Medium:
Ranger
Caveman
Wizard
Rogue
Archaeologist
Tourist
Priest
Hard:
Healer
Monk
Janis Papanagnou
> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> class,
Yes? I have better success with valkyries and knights.
> but what about the most difficult one?
Hmm.., for me, I'd say, it's monks and tourists.
> As for myself, I'd have
> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
Beyond the class, I definitely have bad statistics with orcs.
Janis
Daniel Morris
<sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:s0cn32hci9ilpqo86...@4ax.com...
>I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
IMHO, the hardest to ascend is Healer. This may be because of my Combat
Wombat ways, although even after a successful protection racket I have still
had problems.
Valkeries are definitely the easiest class to ascend, with Mojo guarenteed
and the ability to throw it with [GoP. The quest will help max STR for
those who have had the bad luck to not find those gauntlets. Lord Surtur is
wimpy and other than some potential lava/drawbridge issues the quest is a
breeze. The orb of weight is a decent artifact unless you're a major
packrat.
Just my $.02
Danny
Ascended all Roles
Best Conducts: Wish/Geno/poly/polyselfless,
Illiterate/atheist/geno/poly/polyselfless
Working on Extinctionist
Ugly Newt
sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
I find the Ranger the hardest. OK, I've ascended one of those, and
there are still some classes that I haven't, but it seems to me that the
Ranger gets neither the safer start of the combat wombats, nor the
mid/late game boost of a good Quest artifact. And I can never decide
what they should be wielding for melee, either.
--
Glyn Kennington - remove caps from email address to reply
sjde...@yahoo.com
> Valkeries are definitely the easiest class to ascend, with Mojo guarenteed
> and the ability to throw it with [GoP. The quest will help max STR for
> those who have had the bad luck to not find those gauntlets. Lord Surtur is
> wimpy and other than some potential lava/drawbridge issues the quest is a
> breeze. The orb of weight is a decent artifact unless you're a major
> packrat.
They start with a +3 shield, so can get low AC very quickly. Out of
control HP, a great quest artifact (maybe 4th best after Eye, Eyes,
Master Key), and #twoweapon for the mid-late game.
Mojo guaranteed is great, but throwing it is a trap for new players to
fall into IMO.
DarthBob88
extra shock damage is a very useful thing. Perhaps you mean the
possibility that it won't come back to your hand?
sjde...@yahoo.com
> Elaborate; IME, the ability to whollop enemies from a distance with
> extra shock damage is a very useful thing. Perhaps you mean the
> possibility that it won't come back to your hand?
Losing it is a minor hassle.
Exploding your rings/wands when you fail to catch it can _really_ suck.
Also, it does much less damage than pincushioning the opponent with a
stack of +7 elven daggers to the tune of 34 average damage a turn.
Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
>> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
>> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
>
All classes may be equally successful, if played properly. How easy that
is may depend on what the player likes to do.
>I find the Ranger the hardest.
The secret to Rangers is firing missiles early and often. Surprisingly
they get the same thrown dagger bonus as Rogues. Additionally, they get
that same bonus for bows, darts, shuriken, crossbows, and the sling.
Rangers can get to Expert in all of those except shuriken, which tops
out at "Skilled."
None of which contradicts you. If you don't like firing missiles then
Rangers will be difficult for you.
>OK, I've ascended one of those, and
>there are still some classes that I haven't, but it seems to me that the
>Ranger gets neither the safer start of the combat wombats, nor the
Start with intrinsic searching, get intrinsic stealth at XL 7.
Start with +2 cloak that gives stealth or displacement. Great ranged
weapons and skills. Start with 50 +2 arrows and 30 +0 arrows.
Play that right and you're invulnerable to monsters without ranged attacks.
And it levels the playing field against monsters that do have ranged attacks.
>mid/late game boost of a good Quest artifact.
How many classes are guaranteed to get reflection before they get
to the Castle?
Rangers should use ranged attacks. That comes down to arrows and/or
daggers. Expert Rangers throw/fire d4 of those at a time. Except for
expert Elven rangers firing elven arrows from elven bows: d5 at a time.
Adjust bow to 'w' and wield it.
Adjust arrows to 'Q' and quiver/autoquiver them, fire using 'f'.
Adjust daggers (when you get them) to 't' and throw with 'tt'.
Rangers
Daggers:
- get Str damage bonus
- don't disappear
- Good candidates for early b?oEW
- they're heavy.
- Base d3 to d5 damage against small monsters, depending on dagger type
- Base d3 damage against large monsters, all dagger types.
Arrows
- are light
- Carry more to use up at longer range.
- available from the LongBow
- can accumulate hundreds - good candidates for late b?oEW
- Can be poisoned
- Turn that "The poison was deadly." message around 180 degrees.
- d6(?) damage against poisonable monsters.
- may disappear, but can be replenished from traps, monsters,
and the LongBow.
- Vs. small monsters average 3.0-4.0 base dmg, depending on arrow type
- Vs. large monsters average 3.5-4.0 base dmg, depending on arrow type.
Fire early and often. Better to run out of ammo than leave a good bones file.
Use arrows against more distant targets, daggers as they get closer.
Use whatever missiles are available. You don't have to enhance skill to
use them. Make monsters charge you through a hail of missiles.
* When firing any arrows from any bow, bolts from a crossbow, stones from a
sling, or throwing daggers, darts or shuriken, there may be a chance that
several get shot in one turn. The maximum number starts at 1, and receives
the following additions:
+ 1 if you are skilled in the weapon.
+ 2 if you are expert in the weapon.
+ 1 if you are a Ranger
Starting equipment for a ranger:
+1 <racial> dagger
+1 <racial> bow
50 to 59 +2 <racial> arrows (1% chance poisoned if chaotic)
30 to 39 +0 <racial> arrows (1% chance poisoned if chaotic)
+2 cloak of displacement (elves: +2 elven cloak)
4 to 8 uncursed cram rations (elves: 4 to 8 uncursed lembas wafers)
Weapons Rangers can get to at least "skilled" with:
WEAPON Ra
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~
Axe | skilled
Flail | skilled
Dagger | Expert +1 to possible missiles fired
Knife | skilled
Spear | skilled
Javelin | Expert
Polearm | skilled
Dart | Expert +1 to possible missiles fired
Shuriken | skilled +1 to possible missiles fired
Boomerang | Expert
Bow | Expert +1 to possible missiles fired
Sling | Expert +1 to possible missiles fired
Crossbow | Expert +1 to possible missiles fire
Some tricks:
- Starts out with intrinsic searching. Play a little slower to
take advantage of this.
- When wearing a cloak of displacement monsters have trouble
finding you to hit you. When they hit you they've found you. They
know that and remember where you are. Move after being hit so that the
monster has to go through the whole search process again.
- Displacement can make Elbereth ineffective, since the monster may
not "see" you on the square with the Elbereth. Drop an item on the
Elbereth square to make Elbereth effective in that case.
- An engraved Elbereth with no item on it can still make monsters
"flee" if you're standing near it wearing a cloak of displacement.
That's because the monster may "see" you on the Elbereth square.
- Elven cloaks confer stealth. "Stealth is health." You won't wake
sleeping monsters just by moving around or fighting if you have
stealth. (Kicking down doors is a great way to wake up monsters. It's
also a great way to alert all monsters in the vicinity that you're
coming for dinner.)
>And I can never decide what they should be wielding for melee, either.
Rangers fighting in melee should be wielding an elven bow until they
get the Longbow of Diana. Then they should wield the Longbow.
Project Arrowstorm works at melee range. So does project DaggerStorm.
Arrowstorm requires a wielded bow. DaggerStorm works no matter what you're
wielding.
The secret to playing Rogues is throwing daggers early and often, because
Rogues:
- Can get to expert skill in dagger: d3 per throw.
- get the chance of an extra dagger per throw, so even at unskilled
they get d2 per throw.
Guess what? Rangers have the same abilities.
Also see how Project ArrowStorm can make Grayswandir look wimpy:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/41cd741a3caf4047/0e8666da2164ed45?lnk=st&q=%22arrowstorm%22+group%3Arec.games.roguelike.nethack&rnum=3&hl=en#0e8666da2164ed45>
Note: The weapons spoiler <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>
gives damage rolls for launchers, which a quick inspection did not reveal in the
calculations in the above-linked post.
And here are some quick calculations for Rogue/Ranger Project DaggerStorm:
d4 Expert +7 daggers with Str: 18/** or 25:
2.5 average daggers thrown
2.0 average dmg to monster
+ 7 enchantment - easy to obtain since engraving dulls daggers
+ 6 Str: 18/** or 25 damage bonus.
This makes daggers powerful. Reserve them for tough monsters.
=> Use the lighter/lesser arrows for popcorn monsters (and poison
instakills)
2.5 * ( 2.0 + 7 + 6 ) = 2.5 * 15 = 30.
Project DaggerStorm apparently averages 30 points of damage per firing.
Summary: Rangers should throw/fire every missile weapon they can get an
extra missile fired per turn from. Bow and dagger skill should be enhanced
to Expert.
At range, fire missiles early and often. At melee distance, do the same.
L
> not "see" you on the square with the Elbereth. Drop an item on the
> Elbereth square to make Elbereth effective in that case.
There is a comment in monmove.c which reads:
> /* Note: if your image is displaced, the monster sees the Elbereth
> * at your displaced position, thus never attacking your displaced
> * position, but possibly attacking you by accident. If you are
> * invisible, it sees the Elbereth at your real position, thus never
> * running into you by accident but possibly attacking the spot
> * where it guesses you are.
> */
Personally, I think it's illogical, given the nature of displacement,
to expect displacement to appear to relocate an engraving on the floor.
I have reason to believe this is the case even when you are levitating!
Jove
Thanks for the authoritative correction.
As for logical behavior, how about a patch that give monsters the ability to
be displaced? That might show if there are underlying difficulties in the
structure of the code that make displacement's current functionality reasonable.
L
> not "see" you on the square with the Elbereth. Drop an item on the
> Elbereth square to make Elbereth effective in that case.
There is a comment in monmove.c which reads:
> /* Note: if your image is displaced, the monster sees the Elbereth
> * at your displaced position, thus never attacking your displaced
> * position, but possibly attacking you by accident. If you are
> * invisible, it sees the Elbereth at your real position, thus never
> * running into you by accident but possibly attacking the spot
> * where it guesses you are.
> */
Personally, I think it's illogical, given the nature of displacement,
to expect displacement to appear to relocate an engraving on the floor.
I have reason to believe this is the case even when you are levitating!
Rast
sjde...@yahoo.com says...
> sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
> > I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> > class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
> > to say I've never had much success with Monks.\
>
> Monks are far and away the hardest, IMO.
You're doing something wrong, perhaps trying to keep vegan conduct.
Monks start with speed, sleep resistance, poison resistance[1], a great
spell[2], and about 17 STR. Their barehanded combat is excellent until
the middle game.
But the very easiest classes typically start with 18 CON: Valk, Barb,
Sam. Cavemen should be ranked higher, because they average 17 starting
CON and can easily luck into an 18, but for some reason nobody likes
them.
[1] OK, at XL 3.
[2] 2/3 of the time
--
"Sometimes I stand by the door and look into the darkness. Then I
am reminded how dearly I cherish my boredom, and what a precious
commodity is so much misery." -- Jack Vance
NateSNorman
> Monks start with speed, sleep resistance, poison resistance[1], a great
> spell[2], and about 17 STR. Their barehanded combat is excellent until
> the middle game.
>[2] 2/3 of the time
I assume that you're saying that sleep and healing are the 2/3 and
protection is the 1/3 that isn't good, but I have to disagree. The last
monk I played came with protection which proved very useful all
throughout the early game. If I ever saw a tough enemy I would cast it
twice, which is enough to lower your AC by about 6. This boost in AC
vs. early "tough" enemies like ants is invaluable. I think that all 3
of their starting spells are very good. Of course, it's not quite as
good as just putting the ant to sleep and whacking it, but it's still
good.
sjde...@yahoo.com
> In article <1144783869.8...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> sjde...@yahoo.com says...
> > sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
> > > I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
> > > class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
> > > to say I've never had much success with Monks.\
> >
> > Monks are far and away the hardest, IMO.
>
> You're doing something wrong, perhaps trying to keep vegan conduct.
I typically follow class rules (try to avoid caitiff statements for
knights, follow the samurai code, etc) so I play my monks armorless and
vegetarian. But even without those, armor is pretty much a non-starter
until the late game anyway, and my problems with monks aren't related
to vegetarianism.
> Monks start with speed, sleep resistance, poison resistance[1], a great
> spell[2], and about 17 STR. Their barehanded combat is excellent until
> the middle game.
Sleep resistance is rarely a huge issue (plenty of elves to eat before
you generally need it), poison resistance is very nice but not _that_
hard to acquire in general.
Both are nice, but the massive AC penalty more than offsets them in the
early game, and in the mid game monks deal with MR/reflection issues
(that spill over into spellcasting issues a lot of the time if they get
a CoMR + "reflection and have to drop the robe), the toughest quest
opponent, and lack a great weapon.
And they don't have great missile weapons to help offset that.
> But the very easiest classes typically start with 18 CON: Valk, Barb,
> Sam. Cavemen should be ranked higher, because they average 17 starting
> CON and can easily luck into an 18, but for some reason nobody likes
> them.
I put them pretty high on the easy chart. They have much crappier
starting gear.
Ugly Newt
> On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:38:47 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>
> >I find the Ranger the hardest.
>
> The secret to Rangers is firing missiles early and often. Surprisingly
> they get the same thrown dagger bonus as Rogues. Additionally, they get
> that same bonus for bows, darts, shuriken, crossbows, and the sling.
>
> Rangers can get to Expert in all of those except shuriken, which tops
> out at "Skilled."
>
> None of which contradicts you. If you don't like firing missiles then
> Rangers will be difficult for you.
I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
> >mid/late game boost of a good Quest artifact.
>
> How many classes are guaranteed to get reflection before they get
> to the Castle?
Reflection has to be reliable, and if it's not permanently worn, then
IMHO it's not reliable (in the same way that you shouldn't rely on
Magicbane or your Quest artifact for MR). The Longbow's reflection is
OK for dragons and other threats that you can see coming, but you can't
rely on it for those times when you've got something else in your hands
and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
The most notable case is that doorway in Ludios - there is nearly always
a soldier with a /oLightning, and a strong chance of there being one
with a /oDeath - and this is one of those times when melee is necessary
(see on).
> - When wearing a cloak of displacement monsters have trouble
> finding you to hit you. When they hit you they've found you. They
> know that and remember where you are. Move after being hit so that the
> monster has to go through the whole search process again.
Displacement can be really dangerous when trying to kill your first
unicorn. Despite the armour advantage, I tend to take it off, otherwise
the unicorn won't move where you expect it, and you aren't always able
to retreat.
> >And I can never decide what they should be wielding for melee, either.
>
> Rangers fighting in melee should be wielding an elven bow until they
> get the Longbow of Diana. Then they should wield the Longbow.
"You begin bashing monsters with your Longbow of Diana."
We appear to have different definitions of melee.
There are times when monsters are stepping on the spot with your used
missiles on it before you can pick them up. There's the aforementioned
Ludios doorway, though admittedly that's only one point in the whole
game, and it's not even necessary (or sometimes, possible) to go there.
Or if you're levitating:
You shoot <n> arrows. You float in the opposite direction.
You stop shooting after the first shot. You can move again.
> Rogues:
> - Can get to expert skill in dagger: d3 per throw.
> - get the chance of an extra dagger per throw, so even at unskilled
> they get d2 per throw.
>
> Guess what? Rangers have the same abilities.
Rangers can't use swords (apart from basic short sword) or sabers.
Their only real artifact options seem to be Magicbane xor Stormbringer.
> Summary: Rangers should throw/fire every missile weapon they can get an
> extra missile fired per turn from. Bow and dagger skill should be enhanced
> to Expert.
Yes, I'd gathered that after the first paragraph. :-P
sjde...@yahoo.com
> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
> Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> > Rangers will be difficult for you.
>
> I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
> elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
> of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
> only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
But once you have the longbow, you don't need a melee weapon. You just
pincushion everything, even if it's adjacent.
> > >mid/late game boost of a good Quest artifact.
> >
> > How many classes are guaranteed to get reflection before they get
> > to the Castle?
>
> Reflection has to be reliable, and if it's not permanently worn, then
> IMHO it's not reliable
And since you're always pincushioning, you use the longbow permanently.
It's _not_ a good late-game reflection source since it's a thievery
target, but it gives you an alternative if you haven't found reflection
before the Castle/Ludios.
> There are times when monsters are stepping on the spot with your used
> missiles on it before you can pick them up.
But you can have many hundreds of arrows easily, so you shouldn't be
getting in a situation where you're out of them by the time you reach
zoos/castle/ludios/etc.
> You shoot <n> arrows. You float in the opposite direction.
> You stop shooting after the first shot. You can move again.
This is the big disadvantage.
> Rangers can't use swords (apart from basic short sword) or sabers.
Yes they can. When your god bequeaths it, the skill is unlocked to
basic. And basic is plenty once you have a decent artifact weapon. If
you want to be more of a melee wombat, you can sac until you get
grayswandir/brand/mjollnir/etc and use it just like any other class.
Jove
<gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
>elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
>of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
>only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't seem to follow.
>
>> >mid/late game boost of a good Quest artifact.
>>
>> How many classes are guaranteed to get reflection before they get
>> to the Castle?
>
>Reflection has to be reliable, and if it's not permanently worn, then
>IMHO it's not reliable (in the same way that you shouldn't rely on
>Magicbane or your Quest artifact for MR). The Longbow's reflection is
>OK for dragons and other threats that you can see coming, but you can't
>rely on it for those times when you've got something else in your hands
>and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
>
There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
Please enlighten me.
>The most notable case is that doorway in Ludios - there is nearly always
>a soldier with a /oLightning, and a strong chance of there being one
>with a /oDeath - and this is one of those times when melee is necessary
>(see on).
That turns out not to be the case. Lead monsters through the portal
a few at a time. I do this all the time with my wizards even though
they don't use bows.
>
>> - When wearing a cloak of displacement monsters have trouble
>> finding you to hit you. When they hit you they've found you. They
>> know that and remember where you are. Move after being hit so that the
>> monster has to go through the whole search process again.
>
>Displacement can be really dangerous when trying to kill your first
>unicorn. Despite the armour advantage, I tend to take it off, otherwise
>the unicorn won't move where you expect it, and you aren't always able
>to retreat.
Good point.
>
>> >And I can never decide what they should be wielding for melee, either.
>>
>> Rangers fighting in melee should be wielding an elven bow until they
>> get the Longbow of Diana. Then they should wield the Longbow.
>
> "You begin bashing monsters with your Longbow of Diana."
>
>We appear to have different definitions of melee.
Firing arrows at melee range seems a better idea. But, again,
if you prefer bashing them I'm not trying to change your mind.
>
>There are times when monsters are stepping on the spot with your used
>missiles on it before you can pick them up. There's the aforementioned
>Ludios doorway, though admittedly that's only one point in the whole
>game, and it's not even necessary (or sometimes, possible) to go there.
>
Leading the monsters through the Ludios Portal a few at a time works better.
>Or if you're levitating:
>
> You shoot <n> arrows. You float in the opposite direction.
> You stop shooting after the first shot. You can move again.
The only place where you won't have a relatively nearby landing
ground would be the Plane of Air, correct? Conflict, displacement,
/oPoly, /oSlowMonster, precipitous retreat, etc. are my friends there,
even with my wizards wielding Magicbane.
Cursed worn levitation items would be also be a problem. Cursed worn
levitation items should probably be avoided.)
>
>> Rogues:
>> - Can get to expert skill in dagger: d3 per throw.
>> - get the chance of an extra dagger per throw, so even at unskilled
>> they get d2 per throw.
>>
>> Guess what? Rangers have the same abilities.
>
>Rangers can't use swords (apart from basic short sword) or sabers.
I apologize for saying they did.
>Their only real artifact options seem to be Magicbane xor Stormbringer.
Almost any artifact weapon will do in a pinch, if you can't live without
hitting with a wielded weapon. There's only four points of damage bonus
difference at "Unskilled" vs "Expert." The seven points of to-hit bonus
difference may be more important.
Grayswandir
WEAPON
SKILL LEVEL +HIT +DAM
~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
Unskilled -4 -2
Basic 0 0
Skilled +2 +1
Expert +3 +2
Weight & rough base damage estimate of the major types of the weapon
are in parentheses.
WEAPON Ra Artifacts
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~ --------------
Axe (60,3.5)(120,7.0) : s Cleaver
Broadsword (40,5)(70,6) : - Orcrist, Dragonbane
Long sword (40,5) : - Demonbane,Excalibur,Snickersnee,Sunsword,
Giantslayer,Vorpal Blade,Frost Brand,
Fire Brand
Saber (40,4.5)) : - Grayswandir, Werebane
Mace (30,4) : - Scepter of Might(Q)
Morning star (120,5) : b Trollsbane
Hammer (50,3) : b Ogresmasher, Mjollnir
Dagger (10,2.5) | E Magicbane, Sting, Grimtooth
Quarterstaff (40,3.5) : b Staff of Aesculapius(Q)
Two-handed sword (60,10) : - Tsuguri of Muramasa
>
>> Summary: Rangers should throw/fire every missile weapon they can get an
>> extra missile fired per turn from. Bow and dagger skill should be enhanced
>> to Expert.
>
>Yes, I'd gathered that after the first paragraph. :-P
Don't forget darts, which rangers also get a bonus with. Like arrows, darts
are roughly ten times as effective per weight as daggers. So for 100 units of
weight you can carry about 1000 units of damage with darts/arrows, vs. 100 units
of damage with daggers.
1000 units of damage should get you through most mob scenes.
The main thing is using tactics to divide the enemy forces into
manageable groups.
Another tactic: Reconnaissance by fire. Fire "junk" missiles into
dark corridors/rooms before entering: rocks, worthless glass, daggers,
random darts (might be worth enhancing), even crossbow bolts from a
crossbow (Don't enhance.)
--
"** Time out! I step away from the computer and go have a smoke so
that I don't do anything stupid, like hit any keys. After collecting
my thoughts, and confident that I will take my time, I go back... **"
- Krysia's Krusader
William Lord Undergrad
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
><gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
>
>>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>
>>I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
>>elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
>>of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
>>only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
>
> Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't seem to follow.
Other things that are better about the bow:
1) You're not going to run out of arrows.
2) Poison also has a chance of instakilling.
3) Launcher enchantment adds to to-hit.
Point 1 is the big thing with daggers. Late in the game I hate having
daggers around because they're heavy and you have to waste time picking
them up. Granted, a couple thousand +7 poisoned arrows in your bag will
also weigh you down, but keeping fifty to a hundred in your main
inventory isn't a problem and it's not a big deal if you lose one.
Isn't there some issue with curses on two-handed weapons though? I had
been wanting to ascend a ranger ~3.31 specifically so that I could have
fun shooting up the astrals, but hearsay from a bearded man I know was
that >3.31 curses on two-handed weapons would interfere with opening
your bag and spellcasting.
--
bill
Jove
wrote:
<snip some good points>
>
>Isn't there some issue with curses on two-handed weapons though? I had
>been wanting to ascend a ranger ~3.31 specifically so that I could have
>fun shooting up the astrals, but hearsay from a bearded man I know was
>that >3.31 curses on two-handed weapons would interfere with opening
>your bag and spellcasting.
The weapons spoiler at
<http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>
does not identify the bow as a two-handed weapon.
But yes there are issues with wielding a cursed two-handed weapon.
They are, I believe, the same issues as with wielding two cursed
weapons, or wearing a cursed shield and wielding a cursed weapon.
You cannot spell cast or loot/apply a container under those
conditions. This is a situation worth avoiding.
Ugly Newt
Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
> <gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
>
> >I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>
> >I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
> >elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
> >of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
> >only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
>
> Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't seem to follow.
It's that the daggers give me the choice of what to wield as primary
weapon, while the arrows don't. Also, practicing dagger gives you a
melee and a ranged attack in the same skill slot. And the clincher for
me is that they never get used up - which appeals to my hoarding
instinct, but isn't necessarily a good strategy.
I suppose that daggers are heavier, and not as abundant (especially for
post-Quest rangers) as arrows, so it's not really that one-sided.
> > you can't rely on [the Longbow of Diana]
> >for those times when you've got something else in your hands
> >and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
>
> There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
> Please enlighten me.
You can't hack your way through walls using a bow.
> >The most notable case is that doorway in Ludios - there is nearly always
> >a soldier with a /oLightning, and a strong chance of there being one
> >with a /oDeath - and this is one of those times when melee is necessary
> >(see on).
>
> That turns out not to be the case. Lead monsters through the portal
> a few at a time. I do this all the time with my wizards even though
> they don't use bows.
I must give that a try - but it sounds like it could be a lot more
repetitive than just standing there and whacking. (Standing there and
whacking is also repetitive, but less tedious, and tedium leads to loss
of concentration, which leads to screwing it up.)
> >Or if you're levitating:
> >
> > You shoot <n> arrows. You float in the opposite direction.
> > You stop shooting after the first shot. You can move again.
>
>
> The only place where you won't have a relatively nearby landing
> ground would be the Plane of Air, correct? Conflict, displacement,
> /oPoly, /oSlowMonster, precipitous retreat, etc. are my friends there,
> even with my wizards wielding Magicbane.
On the plane of Air, I'd be using all those tricks to minimize contact
with nasties, regardless of weapon availability. A few notes from a
recent wizmode test, though:
If you're levitating and engulfed by an Air elemental, you can still
shoot multiple times per turn - until you're expelled, at which point
you are propelled another square away. If you fire downwards, you do
the same amount of damage to the elemental, aren't propelled one space
away on the final move, and the arrows will all be there to pick up
(should you wish to spend a turn doing so).
However, I don't usually take off the =oLev till I reach Astral. On the
plane of Fire, it's quite easy to get swarmed over lava; and on the
plane of Water, it's necessary to wander around for a comparatively long
time without the monsters getting in your way (I'd like to save some
/oTele for Astral).
Juiblex' level is a place where I *have* had characters swarmed by
summoned monsters, and I could see the same thing possibly happening on
Medusa's.
> Cursed worn levitation items would be also be a problem. Cursed worn
> levitation items should probably be avoided.)
Agreed ;-)
> >Their only real artifact options seem to be Magicbane xor Stormbringer.
>
> Almost any artifact weapon will do in a pinch, if you can't live without
> hitting with a wielded weapon. There's only four points of damage bonus
> difference at "Unskilled" vs "Expert." The seven points of to-hit bonus
> difference may be more important.
I didn't bother trying to get my last neutral ranger crowned because I
assumed Vorpal Blade would be too awkward (no long sword skill). But if
this unrestriction for sacrifice gifts applies to crowning gifts too, I
might reconsider next time I get one that far.
Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
>> <gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
>>
>> >I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>>
>> >I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
>> >elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
>> >of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
>> >only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
>>
>> Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't seem to follow.
>
>It's that the daggers give me the choice of what to wield as primary
>weapon, while the arrows don't. Also, practicing dagger gives you a
>melee and a ranged attack in the same skill slot.
Thrown daggers do as much damage as hitting with a wielded one, even
at melee range. If you can fire multiple daggers, throwing them does
more damage than hitting with a wielded dagger at melee range.
Unless you like hitting with a wielded weapon so much that you're
willing to do less damage, I don't really see the point. Unless you
get Magicbane or Grimtooth.
If you want low weight and no launcher, throw darts. Same weight as
arrows, no launcher, strength damage bonus, poisonable. Replenish
from dart traps.
>And the clincher for
>me is that they never get used up - which appeals to my hoarding
>instinct, but isn't necessarily a good strategy.
>
Ditto on both counts, but I'm starting to wonder based on the 10:1
weight ratio. The multiplier effect of a b?oEW/!oSickness on a stack
of 100 arrows is also attractive.
Missile weapons take a little more work, but it looks like Ranger is
the missileer of death. The Dungeons are loaded with missile weapons
of one sort or another. Running out should be difficult, even in the
very early game.
Starting with 80-98 arrows, at least 50 of them +2 is starting to
look like an awful lot. Blessing them looks like a big win. So does
using a b?oEW on one of the stacks.
It looks like a worthwhile experiment to start up a Ranger just to
try to run out of arrows. Use them for recon by fire too.
>I suppose that daggers are heavier, and not as abundant (especially for
>post-Quest rangers) as arrows, so it's not really that one-sided.
>
Ten times the weight, and less base damage. Daggers early, arrows
late looks like the best strategy. Especially since you can carry 10
times as many arrows for a given weight.
No futzing around with multiple stacks of 2-3 daggers either.
>> > you can't rely on [the Longbow of Diana]
>> >for those times when you've got something else in your hands
>> >and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
>>
>> There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
>> Please enlighten me.
>
>You can't hack your way through walls using a bow.
Nor with a dagger, unless I'm much mistaken.
>> That turns out not to be the case. Lead monsters through the portal
>> a few at a time. I do this all the time with my wizards even though
>> they don't use bows.
>
>I must give that a try - but it sounds like it could be a lot more
>repetitive than just standing there and whacking. (Standing there and
>whacking is also repetitive, but less tedious, and tedium leads to loss
>of concentration, which leads to screwing it up.)
Then lead them to the nearest altar for sacrifodder (if feasible)
and/or buc id all that loot they're so kindly carrying for you. For a
chaotic human character getting the portal to Ludios on a level with
an altar is almost divine.
I actually find it breaks the monotony nicely. Gives prayer timeout
a chance to expire as well. Throw in some dalliance along the way and
it's an enjoyable little subgame.
A ranger could try out tactical movement to get the soldiers to line
up for target practice.
>
>> >Or if you're levitating:
>> >
>> > You shoot <n> arrows. You float in the opposite direction.
>> > You stop shooting after the first shot. You can move again.
>>
>> The only place where you won't have a relatively nearby landing
>> ground would be the Plane of Air, correct? Conflict, displacement,
>> /oPoly, /oSlowMonster, precipitous retreat, etc. are my friends there,
>> even with my wizards wielding Magicbane.
>
>On the plane of Air, I'd be using all those tricks to minimize contact
>with nasties, regardless of weapon availability. A few notes from a
>recent wizmode test, though:
>
>If you're levitating and engulfed by an Air elemental, you can still
>shoot multiple times per turn - until you're expelled, at which point
>you are propelled another square away. If you fire downwards, you do
>the same amount of damage to the elemental, aren't propelled one space
>away on the final move, and the arrows will all be there to pick up
>(should you wish to spend a turn doing so).
Bravo. I was wondering about that.
(The realization just came to me that unnecessary levitation is
NetHack's way of destroying your extra potions.)
>
>However, I don't usually take off the =oLev till I reach Astral. On the
>plane of Fire, it's quite easy to get swarmed over lava;
Not if you're jumping. Note that Rangers can get to basic in escape
spells. Cast spell of haste self and wear jumping boots: travel over
twice as fast.
Staying away from the center when possible seems to help as well.
>and on the
>plane of Water, it's necessary to wander around for a comparatively long
>time without the monsters getting in your way (I'd like to save some
>/oTele for Astral).
A few extra c?oGD can really cut down on the wandering time.
Levitation lets you move over water. Blessed genocide of ';' lets you
move over water in safety, except possibly for couatls.
>
>Juiblex' level is a place where I *have* had characters swarmed by
>summoned monsters, and I could see the same thing possibly happening on
>Medusa's.
>
But land is never that far away.
>> >Their only real artifact options seem to be Magicbane xor Stormbringer.
>>
>> Almost any artifact weapon will do in a pinch, if you can't live without
>> hitting with a wielded weapon. There's only four points of damage bonus
>> difference at "Unskilled" vs "Expert." The seven points of to-hit bonus
>> difference may be more important.
>
>I didn't bother trying to get my last neutral ranger crowned because I
>assumed Vorpal Blade would be too awkward (no long sword skill). But if
>this unrestriction for sacrifice gifts applies to crowning gifts too, I
>might reconsider next time I get one that far.
I still maintain weapon unrestriction is not that big of a deal,
especially compared to weapon enchantment and strength damage bonus.
Ugly Newt
Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:08:24 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>
> >I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> >> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
> >> <gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
> >>
> >> > you can't rely on [the Longbow of Diana]
> >> >for those times when you've got something else in your hands
> >> >and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
> >>
> >> There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
> >> Please enlighten me.
> >
> >You can't hack your way through walls using a bow.
>
> Nor with a dagger, unless I'm much mistaken.
My point is that the bow won't protect you from rays of fire/lightning/
disintegration (or death, if you haven't yet got MR) when you're
pickaxeing through a wall and a dragon or monster-with-wand comes into
range.
> [...]
> >Juiblex' level is a place where I *have* had characters swarmed by
> >summoned monsters, and I could see the same thing possibly happening on
> >Medusa's.
>
> But land is never that far away.
If >=8 monsters are summoned in one turn while I'm over the water, it
doesn't matter if land is immediately *next* to me - we're looking at
breaking a wand of teleport (or using one charge and hoping the path
stays clear) to get there.
> >> Almost any artifact weapon will do in a pinch, if you can't live without
> >> hitting with a wielded weapon. There's only four points of damage bonus
> >> difference at "Unskilled" vs "Expert." The seven points of to-hit bonus
> >> difference may be more important.
> >
> > [...]
>
> I still maintain weapon unrestriction is not that big of a deal,
> especially compared to weapon enchantment and strength damage bonus.
As Rangers are fairly good at spellcasting, I'm likely not to be using
the Gauntlets of Power in the late game, so the elves are limited to 18
Str. I believe that Gauntlets of Dexterity will give a good to-hit
bonus, though.
In fact [digs in the archives] that one Ranger that *did* ascend was
wielding the +6 Stormbringer (which can't have been above basic), with
St 18, Dx 22 , so it looks like I *can* still have my melee weapons :-D
sa...@everdying.remove.com
<Janis_Pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
>> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
>> class,
>
>Yes? I have better success with valkyries and knights.
Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
are the best class, but they seem to be the most popular one anyway. I
mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
with Wizards.
Janis Papanagnou
>
> Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
> are the best class, but they seem to be the most popular one anyway.
Yes, indeed.
> I mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
> with Wizards.
I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics
in the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that
makes them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact?
Or the spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
If one solely want's to ascend quickly I would suspect that he would go
for valkyries (which are #2 in the NAO list with 11.5%), if one is very
experienced he might prefer to play the more challenging classes.
It would be interesting to hear from the players who prefer wizards
about their primary motivation for that choice.
Janis
Simon Tatham
> It would be interesting to hear from the players who prefer wizards
> about their primary motivation for that choice.
After ascending a Valkyrie, I picked wizards as my next class to try
for a bunch of specific reasons:
- magic resistance from the start neutralises some of the most
severe annoyances in the early game (level teleport traps,
polymorph traps).
- Magicbane largely neutralises one of the most severe annoyances
in the late game (random curse attacks), and the spell of remove
curse does the rest.
- in my Valkyrie ascension I was constantly short of identifies, so
I thought it'd be a nice change to play a class which could
conveniently use the spell of identify.
- I wanted a role with the option of being chaotic, so I could kill
shopkeepers for protection money, healing potions and all their
stuff, and so that the mysterious force wouldn't be so annoying.
- the quest artifact's portal-generation property struck me as
likely to make survival a great deal easier. (Ditto the Orb of
Fate, of course.)
- after ascending a combat wombat, it seemed to me that spells were
a major part of the game which I hadn't really used at all, and
it would be fun to have a go with them. What's the obvious class
to pick if you want to have some fun with spellcasting? Right.
Note that not all of the annoyances I mention above are necessarily
the most severe _threats_ in the game, but they're some of the most
severe _annoyances_, i.e. the things which can make the game a
tedious slog or aggravatingly arbitrary rather than fun. Wizards are
_fun_ to play.
Provided, of course, you can get past the high mortality rate in the
early game. I still haven't really worked this out: I've got two
wizards most of the way through the game (but both died rather than
ascending, annoyingly), and those two were precisely the ones which
happened to find some good armour very early. I still have no real
idea of how to survive until the Quest without happening to manage
to get AC in the region of -10 early.
--
Simon Tatham "infinite loop _see_ loop, infinite"
<ana...@pobox.com> - Index, Borland Pascal Language Guide
Richard Bos
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:08:24 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>
> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> >> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
> >>
> >> >I like firing daggers - nearly all of my characters build up a stack of
> >> >elven daggers for disenchanters, mindflayers and similar. And because
> >> >of this, I'm rather put off by the concept of ranged missiles that are
> >> >only any good when you're not wielding a melee weapon.
> >>
> >> Why? I'm not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't seem to follow.
> >
> >It's that the daggers give me the choice of what to wield as primary
> >weapon, while the arrows don't. Also, practicing dagger gives you a
> >melee and a ranged attack in the same skill slot.
>
> Thrown daggers do as much damage as hitting with a wielded one, even
> at melee range. If you can fire multiple daggers, throwing them does
> more damage than hitting with a wielded dagger at melee range.
>
> Unless you like hitting with a wielded weapon so much that you're
> willing to do less damage, I don't really see the point. Unless you
> get Magicbane or Grimtooth.
Only Magicbane. Grimtooth is useless.
> >> > you can't rely on [the Longbow of Diana]
> >> >for those times when you've got something else in your hands
> >> >and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
> >>
> >> There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
> >> Please enlighten me.
> >
> >You can't hack your way through walls using a bow.
So use a /oDig.
> (The realization just came to me that unnecessary levitation is
> NetHack's way of destroying your extra potions.)
Also to waste your time when you want to pick things up.
Richard
S
> sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
> > are the best class, but they seem to be the most popular one anyway.
>
> Yes, indeed.
>
> > I mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
> > with Wizards.
>
> I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics
> in the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that
> makes them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact?
> Or the spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
>
> about their primary motivation for that choice.
You gave my answer already: magic is fun. (And being able to easily map
Gehennom is a non-negotiable for me.)
-S
Derek Ray
Hash: SHA1
Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
>> are the best class, but they seem to be the most popular one anyway.
>
> Yes, indeed.
>
>> I mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
>> with Wizards.
>
> I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics
> in the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that
> makes them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact?
> Or the spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
Spells combined with Magicbane are far, far more powerful than the
standard KHITBASH can really hope to be.
- --
Derek
insert clever quotation here
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Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 01:08:24 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>>
>> >I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> >> On Thu, 13 Apr 2006 20:17:44 +0100, Ugly Newt
>> >> <gkenn...@claIrVOYaNT.coLD.DuCk> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > you can't rely on [the Longbow of Diana]
>> >> >for those times when you've got something else in your hands
>> >> >and suddenly "The death ray hits you".
>> >>
>> >> There must be some downside to wielding a bow that I'm unaware of.
>> >> Please enlighten me.
>> >
>> >You can't hack your way through walls using a bow.
>>
>> Nor with a dagger, unless I'm much mistaken.
>
>My point is that the bow won't protect you from rays of fire/lightning/
>disintegration (or death, if you haven't yet got MR) when you're
>pickaxeing through a wall and a dragon or monster-with-wand comes into
>range.
>
And that seems more like a downside to *not* wielding the LoB, and
only the LoB. With the 'x' command switching from a wielded digging
implement back to the bow can be relatively simple.
My point was that's not a downside to wielding a bow, so much as
it's a downside to wielding anything that's not a digging implement.
So it doesn't seem to apply strictly to wielding a bow.
Wands of digging are the among the most plentiful in the game.
Unless there's a critical need to dig using a weapon-tool and
absolutely no charged wands of digging available anywhere, then
perhaps this digging should be avoided until after another source of
reflection is found. There are also other means of protecting your
back while digging. This approach requires a little more care, but
that seems to describe the whole Ranger game plan: you're going to
have to think a little harder and work a little harder.
Again, just because there are ways to deal with it doesn't mean you
have to use them. Marvin shows ways to deal with everything. Doesn't
mean I can do it.
And I'm not trying to say that the reflection offered by the LoD is
perfect. It obviously isn't. But playing a little more carefully and
wielding it as much as possible can help get you to the Castle where
you can get pretty much any other source of reflection you want.
>> [...]
>
>> >Juiblex' level is a place where I *have* had characters swarmed by
>> >summoned monsters, and I could see the same thing possibly happening on
>> >Medusa's.
>>
>> But land is never that far away.
>
>If >=8 monsters are summoned in one turn while I'm over the water, it
>doesn't matter if land is immediately *next* to me - we're looking at
>breaking a wand of teleport (or using one charge and hoping the path
>stays clear) to get there.
This seems most likely to occur during the Ascension run. Not to
mention that I routinely cross Medusa and Juiblex without ever needing
to levitate. Freezing, water walking boots, jumping, ?oEarth, etc.
Juiblex I think can usually be mostly crossed simply by walking on
pre-existing dry land without any special techniques.
Again, it's a question of a little more effort on the part of the
player. Again, it's not something you personally have to like, find
easy, or even do.
>
>> >> Almost any artifact weapon will do in a pinch, if you can't live without
>> >> hitting with a wielded weapon. There's only four points of damage bonus
>> >> difference at "Unskilled" vs "Expert." The seven points of to-hit bonus
>> >> difference may be more important.
>> >
>> > [...]
>>
>> I still maintain weapon unrestriction is not that big of a deal,
>> especially compared to weapon enchantment and strength damage bonus.
Note that a single b?oEW should average offsetting the -2 unskilled
damage bonus. A single ring of increase damage, properly prepared,
should do the same.
All an artifact weapon you're restricted with that does four more
points of base damage than a weapon your expert with will be doing
equivalent damage.
>
>As Rangers are fairly good at spellcasting,
They can get to Expert in Divination, basic in Escape and Healing
spell schools. Removing GoP for one turn to cast those doesn't seem
like a major disaster. They're restricted in all other spell schools.
Attack spells are the main ones you'd want to be able to cast while
wearing GoP, so that probably won't be a problem.
>I'm likely not to be using the Gauntlets of Power in the late game,
One turn to wear on, one turn to take off. I do that a lot in my
wizard games, only with a shield instead of GoP, and a shield is
generally nothing like as good a friend in combat as GoP's +6 damage
bonus.
>so the elves are limited to 18 Str.
Which gives +2 damage bonus which exactly offsets the -2 damage
bonus resulting from being unskilled with a weapon.
Orc and goblin Rangers can get to 18/50. 18/01 is the threshold for
+3 damage bonus. So the negative unskilled damage bonus is more than
offset.
Human rangers can get to Str 18/**, which gives the +6 damage bonus,
three times the negative damage bonus for using a weapon a character
is unskilled with.
Now if you insist on playing Rangers as Elves, more power to you
(well, less actually). But then it's a conduct where you're
deliberately limiting the potential of a character due to personal
preference.
Don't forget rings of gain strength, either. Elves, goblins, and
orcs max out a single strength point below a strength damage bonus
threshold. To an Elf at Str 18, or goblins/orcs at Str 18/50 a +1
ring of increase strength gives an extra point of damage bonus.
Or you can fire d4 arrows at a time, take your pick.
> I believe that Gauntlets of Dexterity will give a good to-hit
>bonus, though.
Mostly useless, in my experience. They seem most likely to be
useful to Monks wearing body armor.
>
>In fact [digs in the archives] that one Ranger that *did* ascend was
>wielding the +6 Stormbringer (which can't have been above basic), with
>St 18, Dx 22 , so it looks like I *can* still have my melee weapons :-D
Go for it!
Don't forget that Magicbane, Cleaver, Mjollnir, and the Staff of
Aesculapius are all decent artifact weapons Rangers are not restricted
with:
WEAPON Ra Artifacts
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~ --------------
Axe (60,3.5)(120,7.0) : s Cleaver
Morning star (120,5) : b Trollsbane
Hammer (50,3) : b Ogresmasher, Mjollnir
Dagger (10,2.5) | E Magicbane, Sting, Grimtooth
Quarterstaff (40,3.5) : b Staff of Aesculapius(Q)
--
The above text has been editted to serve my own nefarious ends.
All the best,
Joe "Jove" Bednorz
Jove
>Note that not all of the annoyances I mention above are necessarily
>the most severe _threats_ in the game, but they're some of the most
>severe _annoyances_, i.e. the things which can make the game a
>tedious slog or aggravatingly arbitrary rather than fun. Wizards are
>_fun_ to play.
Dead on. Early on there are fewer annoyances. Late game they can
be unstoppable spell casting machines.
>
>Provided, of course, you can get past the high mortality rate in the
>early game. I still haven't really worked this out: I've got two
>wizards most of the way through the game (but both died rather than
>ascending, annoyingly), and those two were precisely the ones which
>happened to find some good armour very early. I still have no real
>idea of how to survive until the Quest without happening to manage
>to get AC in the region of -10 early.
- Pet test every single piece of armor you find and try on all
non-cursed pieces of armor. (Except cloaks. Guess why.)
Forget about spell casting failure rates. Trying to play an early
wizard as an offensive spell caster is a good way to die.
You'll see lot of helms, boots, shields, and eventually gloves,
so they'll have the best chance higher enchantment.
Once you get decent accessory armor wear the best (studded)
leather armor as your body armor. Shields, helms, and gloves can
all be Worn or Taken off in one turn. Take off the minimum
necessary for non-offensive spell casting. (Note: The vast
majority of spells are not Attack spells.)
- Build up your pet(s). Let them advance getting small stuff that's
less likely to kill them. If you can get two buff pets and stay
close to them you're in pretty good shape. Note well that just
having pets and staying close to them isn't enough. You've got
to do the work to build them up into formidable killing machines
or your starting pet will die as a kitten.
- Elbereth early and often.
- Get daggers. Throw daggers early and often. #enhance dagger
skill at expense of everything else.
All of the above techniques should be used intensively and in
parallel. They're the hard, finicky work that will keep your
character alive.
- Do Sokoban before mines for strength increase (and str damage
bonus), food, wands, and rings.
- Gauntlets of Power give +6 damage bonus when you hit with a
wielded weapon or a thrown dagger, dart, or shuriken. Expert
wizards throw d3 daggers per firing. That averages two daggers
per throw. (Twoweaponing for the thinking wizard.) GoP will
add 12 points of damage to an average fling at Expert skill.
- Boots of Speed, wand of speed monster, or spell of haste self can
change a wizard's speed from dead slow to survivable. Eating
a Quantum Mechanic's corpse will toggle your character's intrinsic
speed between fast and slow. They're also poisonous.
Speed and poison resistance are the big things early wizards
desperately need and have no guaranteed, safe, reliable means of
getting. Work all the other techniques hard to make up for that.
Ring of sustain ability lets you eat poisonous corpses without
losing strength. This can give you a chance to acquire poison
resistance. Alchemy smocks confer poison resistance when worn. This
is useful in battle as well as for eating corpses. There are also
rings and amulets of poison resistance. Learn how to identify them as
safely as possible. Unicorn horns reverse non-fatal effects of
poison.
Jove
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
>>> are the best class, but they seem to be the most popular one anyway.
>>
>> Yes, indeed.
>>
>>> I mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
>>> with Wizards.
>>
>> I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics
>> in the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that
>> makes them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact?
>> Or the spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
>
>Spells combined with Magicbane are far, far more powerful than the
>standard KHITBASH can really hope to be.
The starting Cloak of Magic Resistance is what attracted me.
Ugly Newt
Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>
> >If >=8 monsters are summoned in one turn while I'm over the water, it
> >doesn't matter if land is immediately *next* to me - we're looking at
> >breaking a wand of teleport (or using one charge and hoping the path
> >stays clear) to get there.
>
> This seems most likely to occur during the Ascension run. Not to
> mention that I routinely cross Medusa and Juiblex without ever needing
> to levitate. Freezing, water walking boots, jumping, ?oEarth, etc.
> Juiblex I think can usually be mostly crossed simply by walking on
> pre-existing dry land without any special techniques.
I do the ?oEarth trick on Medusa's level - often for the Sokoban-like
challenge rather than because of the lack of levitation/water-walking -
but have usually run out of ?oEarth (or am keeping just the one as a
reserve boulder-fort) by the time I reach Juiblex.
Water-walking boots are kind of cool (and I'm seriously considering them
next time I get an [S] character that far, where falling in the water is
a lot worse), but if I have speed boots, levitation is just a lot more
convenient. Yes, another bit of preference that might in fact be
counter-productive in this case.
Boots of jumping seem less useful in this case than the boots of
water-walking. +ofJumping isn't guaranteed to turn up, either.
Freezing is a bit risky when there be dragons.
> >As Rangers are fairly good at spellcasting,
>
> They can get to Expert in Divination, basic in Escape and Healing
> spell schools. Removing GoP for one turn to cast those doesn't seem
> like a major disaster. [...]
Except for jumping across the Astral Plane - the whole point of jumping
there is that it allows you to take advantage of clear lines before the
monsters start closing in (and requiring the GoP to be *on*) again.
More generally, changing clothes is OK if you want to do occasional
"offline" spells (divination, mostly) but not so convenient for
healing/escape, where time is more likely to be of the essence.
> >so the elves are limited to 18 Str.
>
> [...]
>
> Now if you insist on playing Rangers as Elves, more power to you
> (well, less actually). But then it's a conduct where you're
> deliberately limiting the potential of a character due to personal
> preference.
I don't *insist* on playing Rangers as Elves - they just get rolled that
way (I don't choose characters unless I'm trying to collect sets in a
Tournament). Oddly, my only Rangers that have done well have been
Elves.
> Or you can fire d4 arrows at a time
They also get the +2 upper limit on Wis and Int. But the d4 arrows are
a bonus that they get *early*, which (along with the Orcs' resistance to
poison) is possibly what makes them more likely to survive the early
game.
> > I believe that Gauntlets of Dexterity will give a good to-hit
> >bonus, though.
>
> Mostly useless, in my experience. They seem most likely to be
> useful to Monks wearing body armor.
In comparison to GoP, they have different strengths, and it's reasonable
for one to be more suitable than another on different occasions.
In comparison to leather gloves, GoDex (of the same enchantment) win
every time.
> Don't forget that Magicbane, Cleaver, Mjollnir, and the Staff of
> Aesculapius are all decent artifact weapons Rangers are not restricted
> with:
The Staff, eh? This brings me to another qualifier in my "I find
<role> hardest" statement - this is all within my chosen conduct set:
* No polypiling (often limits the number of combinations available in the
full AK, and also makes waving /oPoly around on Air a bit riskier)
* No genocide (makes Plane of Water a different kettle of fish)
* No artifact-wishing (limits artifacts to those my deity approves of,
or occasional lucky finds)
* Preferably no wishing (bit of a hazy distinction, but it's clear in *my*
mind)
You might say that these are also limiting my success with Rangers. But
I'd argue that most conducts (including the above) should be limiting
all of my characters evenly.
Janis Papanagnou
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:29:19 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>
>>so the elves are limited to 18 Str.
>
> Which gives +2 damage bonus which exactly offsets the -2 damage
> bonus resulting from being unskilled with a weapon.
>
> Orc and goblin Rangers can get to 18/50. 18/01 is the threshold for
> +3 damage bonus. So the negative unskilled damage bonus is more than
> offset.
>
> Human rangers can get to Str 18/**, which gives the +6 damage bonus,
> three times the negative damage bonus for using a weapon a character
> is unskilled with.
>
>
> Don't forget rings of gain strength, either. Elves, goblins, and
> orcs max out a single strength point below a strength damage bonus
> threshold. To an Elf at Str 18, or goblins/orcs at Str 18/50 a +1
> ring of increase strength gives an extra point of damage bonus.
Sounds interesting but is that correct for goblins/orcs?
I haven't read the source exhaustively but the damage bonus function
seems *not* to have a threshold at 18/50... (CMIIW)
weapon.c, dbon():
if (str < 6) return(-1);
else if (str < 16) return(0);
else if (str < 18) return(1);
else if (str == 18) return(2); /* up to 18 */
else if (str <= STR18(75)) return(3); /* up to 18/75 */
else if (str <= STR18(90)) return(4); /* up to 18/90 */
else if (str < STR18(100)) return(5); /* up to 18/99 */
else return(6);
Though for elves these otherwise quite useless rings of gain strength
are indeed helpful. Especially given that there are quite huge gains;
e.g., you have no bonus with Str:15, but a +1 ring gives +1 bonus,
a +3 ring +2 bonus, and a +4 ring 3 points(!) more damage bonus, which
is half of the maximum damage bonus obtainable by strength.
Janis
Zeitgeist
Ugly Newt wrote:
> I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
> Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>
> > Aesculapius are all decent artifact weapons Rangers are not restricted
> > with:
>
> The Staff, eh? This brings me to another qualifier in my "I find
> <role> hardest" statement - this is all within my chosen conduct set:
>
> * No polypiling (often limits the number of combinations available in the
> full AK, and also makes waving /oPoly around on Air a bit riskier)
>
> * No genocide (makes Plane of Water a different kettle of fish)
>
> * No artifact-wishing (limits artifacts to those my deity approves of,
> or occasional lucky finds)
>
> * Preferably no wishing (bit of a hazy distinction, but it's clear in *my*
> mind)
>
> You might say that these are also limiting my success with Rangers. But
> I'd argue that most conducts (including the above) should be limiting
> all of my characters evenly.
It's not necessarily limiting all your characters evenly. For a valk,
the artifact
wishing doesn't really hinder. They have easy access to two cool
artifact
weapons (mojo and excal) and their quest artifact is very useful (even
if it is
somewhat heavy).
I tend to play with a similar style of conducts, and I managed to
ascend an
elven ranger late last year. See http://tinyurl.com/hobnh for the
details.
--
Zeitgeist
Jove
>I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
>Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
>> [Mostly valid points, or places where we're going round in circles]
Ditto.
>> >As Rangers are fairly good at spellcasting,
>>
>> They can get to Expert in Divination, basic in Escape and Healing
>> spell schools. Removing GoP for one turn to cast those doesn't seem
>> like a major disaster. [...]
>
>Except for jumping across the Astral Plane - the whole point of jumping
>there is that it allows you to take advantage of clear lines before the
>monsters start closing in (and requiring the GoP to be *on*) again.
The Amulet of Yendor doubles the average mana drain when spell
casting. That surcharge can't be avoided when casting the spell of
jump. Jumping boots have no such problem. This will still let
you travel over twice as fast as if you were moving "very fast,"
even if you're just "fast". And wearing GoP doesn't interfere with
jumping from jumping boots.
You can also be very fast from the spell of Haste Self. Dropping
the AoY before casting the spell of Haste Self a few times to pump it
up works beautifully with my Wizards. (Just don't forget to pick it
back up again.)
Since spell casting becomes more expensive while carry the AoY, it
might be better to get used to tedious spell casting procedures before
the Ascension Run.
>
>More generally, changing clothes is OK if you want to do occasional
>"offline" spells (divination, mostly) but not so convenient for
>healing/escape, where time is more likely to be of the essence.
Haste self is the perfect spell to keep pumped up offline.
Invisibility (the Ranger's special spell) ditto. Levitation seems
more likely to be used offline.
Relying on healing spells in critical situations has never worked
for me. Needing to use them is a sign that my character is taking too
much damage. Better to improve AC or early running away. Or deal
more damage by, say, wearing GoP.
There are scenarios where GoP have drawbacks. There are scenarios
where those drawbacks are mitigated. It seems optimal to work toward
for the better scenarios while trying to avoid the sub-optimal ones.
>
>> > I believe that Gauntlets of Dexterity will give a good to-hit
>> >bonus, though.
>>
>> Mostly useless, in my experience. They seem most likely to be
>> useful to Monks wearing body armor.
>
>In comparison to GoP, they have different strengths, and it's reasonable
>for one to be more suitable than another on different occasions.
Except that GoP always improve Str to 25. GoD must be enchanted,
with the all the difficulty that entails.
>
>In comparison to leather gloves, GoDex (of the same enchantment) win
>every time.
I thought that for a long time, but experience taught me better. If
my weapon attacks aren't missing monsters, then GoDex are unnecessary
and a waste of b?oEA. "A difference that makes no difference is no
difference."
The Castle and Fort Ludios are good places to get ordinary gloves
that are pre-enchanted to at least +3. In fact, I rely on that.
Saves at least one b?oEA for enchanting.
Usually my working pair of gloves is damaged by that point. It's
cheaper to toss them and replace with ordinary gloves from Ludios or
the Castle than to burn yet another b?oEA repairing GoDex. (Fooproof
the newly obtained ordinary gloves with confused c?oDA before use.)
<snip personal preferences>
Rast
inv...@invalid.invalid says...
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2006 08:46:00 +0100, Ugly Newt wrote:
>
> >I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when
> >Jove got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
> You can also be very fast from the spell of Haste Self. Dropping
> the AoY before casting the spell of Haste Self a few times to pump it
> up works beautifully with my Wizards. (Just don't forget to pick it
> back up again.)
The spell stacks without limit, so it is better to do it well before the
ascension run. Each casting provides 100-109 (160-169 if skilled) turns
of "very fast". With the Eye and good stats, any character will
regenerate the required 15 mana in 6 turns (average).
One could even sit around for 600 turns doing nothing but regenerating
mana and casting haste self (I've seen players spend many more turns than
that on much more pointless endeavors), and then have 9500 turns of "very
fast" stored up, easily enough time to ascend. Personally I just cast it
whenever I get near max mana.
> I thought that for a long time, but experience taught me better. If
> my weapon attacks aren't missing monsters, then GoDex are unnecessary
> and a waste of b?oEA. "A difference that makes no difference is no
> difference."
Very true! They are mainly useful in the early game, but at that stage
you don't have them, or any way to enchant them.
Little White Mouse
> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful class,
> but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have to say I've
> never had much success with Monks.
Remember you can eat meat as a monk - it's damn handy sometimes :-)
For me, tourists are on down there. I do ok as a healer (I can heal
myself and make meatballs, so I don't die as quickly, and I don't starve
to death as quickly - both handy!!), but my tourists die so quickly...
--LWM
Jove the Missileer
Elbereth early and often.
Throw darts early and often
- Enhance the skill
- Multifire
- Damage bonus
- (Note that multi-fire gets the damage bonus with each hit.)
- poison them if you can.
- They get the strength damage bonus so Sokoban for strength.
Learn how to develop your pets so they'll be strong enough to help.
Improve your AC by testing all non-cursed armor found.
Use the camera carefully. Blinded monsters don't respect Elbereth.
(I suspect the camera is only really useful when Elbereth has been
compiled out. Or to blind pets to keep them from being frozen by
floating eyes.)
Only the darts are specific to Tourists. The tourist starting darts
are there to be used up so the character can survive the early game.
There are more darts guaranteed for the late game (in the VotD).
Darts look like the best missile weapon there is:
- Light (weight 1)
- Base damage of d3.
- Get strength damage bonus. (GoP give +6 per dart.)
- Great damage/weight ratio
- Multi-fire
- up to d3 at Expert
- d4 for Expert Rangers)
- Tourists can enhance to expert: +2 dmg bonus
- Stackable
- Poisonable (Much easier than enchanting early on.)
- Enchantable
- Don't require a wielded launcher.
- Just as effective at range one.
- +2 intrinsic to-hit bonus
- Resupply from random dart traps.
The only downside is that they can vanish. But the better your darts
are, the less likely they are to vanish. Getting the luckstone
and maximizing luck will also help.
STRENGTH +DAM STRENGTH +HIT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
3 to 5 -1 3 to 5 -2
6 to 15 0 6 to 7 -1
16 to 17 +1 8 to 16 0
18 +2 17 to 18/50 +1
18/01 - 18/75 +3 18/51 - 18/99 +2
18/76 - 18/90 +4 18/** +3
18/91 - 18/99 +5 19-25 +3
18/** +6
19 to 25 +6
Start a tourist in explore mode. Try to use up your starting darts as
fast as possible.
- Calibrate their range.
- Recalibrate with each strength gain (Not sure if it changes)
- Throw at monsters at extreme range.
- I believe at max range missile weapons can hit monsters
who won't try to approach you. (A post by Rob Ellwood.)
- Throw them down corridors to check for monsters.
- Throw them into darkened rooms, ditto.
See how far you get before you run out.
The other point of this exercise is that a live tourist who's used up
the initial dart supply is much better off than a dead tourist leaving a
better bones file.
As an illustrative example, an Expert Tourist with Str:18 will get
a total of +4 damage bonus when throwing darts, as well as d3 darts
per throw. With the starting +2 darts that should average:
Two times:
- +2 base damage (d3)
- +2 enchantment damage
- +2 expert dmg bonus
- +2 Str dmg bonus
= 16 damage per firing.
Basic skill at Str: 15 gives
- +2 base damage (d3)
- +2 enchantment damage
= 4 damage per firing.
That's the equivalent of a guaranteed +12 ring of increase damage (for
a single hit with a wielded weapon), with no nutrition cost. It won't
even take up a ring slot.
A +2 wielded weapon at Expert with Str: 18 will get +6 damage
bonus times one hit. The wielded weapon would need a base average
damage of 12 to equal the darts.
The highest base average damage for a non-artifact weapon is 8.5,
for a tsurugi. Tsurugis must be wished for, received as a quest
artifact, or found in a bones file. They are also two-handed weapons.
The best one-handed wielded weapons you're likely to find are:
WEAPON (Table 2) SDAM SAVG LDAM LAVG
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~
long sword : d8 4.5 d12 6.5
broadsword (ninja-to) : 2d4 5.0 d6+1 4.5
morning star : 2d4 5.0 d6+1 4.5
elven broadsword : d6+d4 6.0 d6+1 4.5
The best base damage of those weapons is six points short of being
able to equal darts at Str 18, Expert skill, and +2 enchantment.
Note that averaging two missiles per firing doubles the damage
done by a missile weapon. That equals Grayswandir's damage doubling
ability.
Rogues, non-elven Rangers, and Elven non-rangers using elven bows and
arrows can get 2.5 times the damage. Elven rangers using elven bows and
arrows get 3 times the damage.
Of the artifact wielded weapons, Excalibur adds d10 (5.5 average)
Snickersnee and the Tsurugi (twohanded) add d8 (4.5 average). Mjollnir
adds d25 (12.5 average), but only against non-shock resistant monsters.
The weapons spoiler at:
<http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt> is probably
correct when it states:
"Most players know that the best weapons in NetHack are artifacts"
But multi-fireable missile weapons at Expert skill can do more damage,
and from a safer distance than all artifact weapons besides the Longbow
of Diana and Mjollnir. (The Longbow of Diana will never be randomly
generated and cannot be a divine gift. Mjollnir is only a potential
missile weapon for a Valkyrie with Str: 25.)
Getsome
<sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:bddn32p6lickf29jf...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 15:55:49 +0200, Sebastian Hungerecker
> <sep...@web.de> wrote:
>
>>sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
>>> I think the general consensus is that Wizard is the most powerful
>>> class, but what about the most difficult one? As for myself, I'd have
>>> to say I've never had much success with Monks.
>>
>>with healers - my second ascension was one. Also many people think of
>>tourists as powerful because they have good skills and a kick-ass quest
>>artifact.
>
> I like healers, my third (and latest) ascension was one, too. :) Sure,
> playing a Healer requires patience in the early game, especially if
> you're gonna do the protection racket, but things tend to get quite
> alot easier when you find a decent weapon and some suitable armor.
> Plus, after getting the Staff, you regenerate all the time.
Whats the protection racket?
Janis Papanagnou
>
> Whats the protection racket?
To keep ones experience level low, preferable at level 1, and descend
to the minetown temple and buy intrinsic protection quite inexpensive.
You need a good pet to support that and/or play classes that provide
mostly peaceful mine inhabitants.
Janis
Little White Mouse
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 05:37:09 GMT, Little White Mouse wrote:
>>For me, tourists are on down there. I do ok as a healer (I can heal
>>myself and make meatballs, so I don't die as quickly, and I don't starve
>>to death as quickly - both handy!!), but my tourists die so quickly...
>
> Learn how to develop your pets so they'll be strong enough to help.
> Improve your AC by testing all non-cursed armor found. Use the camera
> carefully. Blinded monsters don't respect Elbereth. (I suspect the
> camera is only really useful when Elbereth has been
> compiled out. Or to blind pets to keep them from being frozen by
> floating eyes.)
My Ts don't usually make it to Sokoban, actually.
FWIW, I have found that blinding monsters is an acceptable alternative to
writing Elbereth in the dust - especially if the monster is large and
close to you. You have a reasonable chance of screwing up Elbcreth, and
one hit can be pretty darn fatal. But if the monster isn't already blind,
and has room to flee, then a camera flash will just about guarentee it
moves away from you - giving you that much more time to run for the stairs!
> - Throw them down corridors to check for monsters. - Throw them into
> darkened rooms, ditto.
That's an interesting one. I'd never thought to check for monsters that
way! Of course, you might anger the occational priest, but at least you
wouldn't be *in* the temple when it happens...
--LWM
Little White Mouse
> Wands of digging are the among the most plentiful in the game.
When I rely on them, I run out, every time.
>>If >=8 monsters are summoned in one turn while I'm over the water, it
>>doesn't matter if land is immediately *next* to me - we're looking at
>>breaking a wand of teleport (or using one charge and hoping the path
>>stays clear) to get there.
I always try to levitate one square away from land, so that if I lost my
levitation in *any* way, I'll still have land next to me. I don't think
there are many places this can't be done (this also implies that I never
try the back door to the castle - too risky for me...)
Just my .02zk :-)
--LWM
vintermann
Rast wrote:
> Cavemen should be ranked higher, because they average 17 starting
> CON and can easily luck into an 18, but for some reason nobody likes
> them.
They have nothing for them that other classes don't have more of. They
can't even twoweapon. They are so poorly differentiated that even the
guidebook calls them "the poor person's barbarian".
Even a few atkins diet funny messages would make that class more
worthwhile.
Little White Mouse
It's rather difficult to do; one tends to die a lot. OTOH, it's good
training for weak characters in general :-) I pulled a variant off w/ an
Archeologist I just ascended (forgot to mention that...) in which I dug
out a bunch of vaults. I was level 2 or 3 when I made it to minetown, but
I still had buckets of cash for easy protection. Still...I lost 2 or 3
Archs trying this one...
--LWM
Little White Mouse
>> with Wizards.
>
> I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics in
> the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that makes
> them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact? Or the
> spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
> It would be interesting to hear from the players who prefer wizards about
> their primary motivation for that choice.
For me, it's being able to advance so far in so many schools of magic.
Well-advanced Divination is *very* nice, and high-level attack? I love
big cones of cold :-) High level matter? Wow! I can polymorph at will!
And so on. Unless you get very unlucky, there are going to be some
awesome spells you can use (even Confuse Monster is an incredible
spell...if you can cast it say...50 times and use it all the time! It's
like a mini-conflict + keep monsters away from you!) Combine that with
the Eye... And the ability to write a spellbook of ID...
Yeah, Wizards, once they get powerful, and hard to stop.
--LWM
nyra
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 03:41:17 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
> > Getsome wrote:
> >>
> >> Whats the protection racket?
> >
> > To keep ones experience level low, preferable at level 1, and descend to
> > the minetown temple and buy intrinsic protection quite inexpensive. You
> > need a good pet to support that and/or play classes that provide mostly
> > peaceful mine inhabitants.
> >
>
> It's rather difficult to do; one tends to die a lot.
Gnomes and dwarfs have a reasonable chance of getting to minetown
alive. It's risky even for them, because you can get killed if you get
separated from your pet (anything which whisks you or your pet off the
level is _bad_), if a hostile monster packs an offensive wand, if
there's a bonesfile somewhere, if you step into a boulder trap ...
I haven't tried it much, but i'd estimate the chance is at least 1/5
for gnomish healers, probably better. Not too awful, but not worth the
effort for me.
--
Een koe is een merkwaardig beest; wat er ook in haar geest moge zijn,
haar laatste woord is altijd boe.
nyra
>
> On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:21:00 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
> > sa...@everdying.REMOVE.com wrote:
> >> I mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
> >> with Wizards.
> >
> > I wondered about that huge popularity when I had seen those statistics in
> > the past. Maybe it's the varying magical items they start with that makes
> > them an appealing class? Maybe it's the wizard's quest artifact? Or the
> > spellcasting that is more fun than melee? Dunno.
> > ...
> > It would be interesting to hear from the players who prefer wizards about
> > their primary motivation for that choice.
>
> For me, it's being able to advance so far in so many schools of magic.
> Well-advanced Divination is *very* nice, and high-level attack? I love
> big cones of cold :-) High level matter? Wow! I can polymorph at will!
> And so on. Unless you get very unlucky, there are going to be some
> awesome spells you can use (even Confuse Monster is an incredible
> spell...if you can cast it say...50 times and use it all the time! It's
> like a mini-conflict + keep monsters away from you!)
It makes for rather peculiar gameplay combined with the many
monster-carried scrolls of teleportation and create monster, too.
Little White Mouse
I'd give you higher odds, if you're good ;-) It's just like playing
pacifist for a while...
--LWM
Kevin Buhr
Personally, I've never been able to pull it off. I find it just too
tedious and/or risky. I've also found myself in the embarrassing
situation of slowly working my way down a couple of mine levels,
falling through a trapdoor (and so getting separated from my pet), and
ending up in minetown with XL 1, 150 in gold, and two identified
rubies with no appropriate shop to sell them. Say, is that a soldier
ant strolling down the corridor?
And unless you're trying to play a pacifist anyway, what's the payoff?
It seems to me that it's easy to keep your AC low enough through other
means all the way through to the midgame, and you'll have such a
surplus of money at that point, that---even at XL 14 or whatever---you
can still make half a dozen "selfless generosity" contributions on the
off-chance of getting one more point.
--
Kevin Buhr <buh...@asaurus.net>
David Damerell
>Maybe I worded it badly, okay it's not the "general consensus" wizards
>mean, I looked at the NAO statistics and almost 1/3 of all games are
>with Wizards.
Was that in a way that discards startscummers?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Teleute, May.
David Damerell
>For me, it's being able to advance so far in so many schools of magic.
>Well-advanced Divination is *very* nice, and high-level attack? I love
>big cones of cold :-) High level matter? Wow! I can polymorph at will!
All of this is very nice and makes Wizards powerful later on, but it
doesn't make them the easiest class because what kills most NetHack
characters is infant mortality.
David Damerell
>Wands of digging are the among the most plentiful in the game.
>Unless there's a critical need to dig using a weapon-tool and
>absolutely no charged wands of digging available anywhere, then
>perhaps this digging should be avoided until after another source of
>reflection is found.
The problem with this approach is that you're using digging charges before
you know if you'll need them later if you're mysterious-forced unusually
badly.