Help with projectile selection for archeologist
carlh...@gmail.com
if anyone has any suggestions for a suitable long-distance weapon for
my human archeologist. So far, I've been using my leashed LVL 25 Titan
or rocks but this seems to be a good point in the game to accumulate
some distance weapons and enchant them before my journey into Gehennom.
Many people espouse the virtues of daggers, but since I can only get to
basic with daggers, would I be just as well off using a big stack of
enchanted darts? Darts are only a tenth of the weight, do just about
as much damage, and throw at the same rate. That would leave me with
some space in my inventory for wands of cold and/or fire.
Thanks for the help,
Carl
Patashu
IIRC, darts can vanish spontaneously after throwing them but daggers
can't, so daggers are a better long-term investment.
senon
> Many people espouse the virtues of daggers, but since I can only get to
> basic with daggers, would I be just as well off using a big stack of
> enchanted darts? Darts are only a tenth of the weight, do just about
> as much damage, and throw at the same rate. That would leave me with
> some space in my inventory for wands of cold and/or fire.
It's true that you can only get daggers to basic, but as said above,
they don't vanish when used, and at high levels, your inherent to-hit
bonus should be able to overcome the lower skill level.
Using silver daggers is also popular against demons, werecreatures and
vampires. They're very rare, though, so it's probably not worth seeking
them out over elven daggers for the planes, though...
-senon
Link
If your luck is maxed, and the darts are blessed, then they rarely
disappear. Also, darts can be poisoned by dipping them in a potion of
sickness, which does extra damage against monsters that aren't poison
resistant (Daggers can't be poisoned).
Daggers are useful in the beginning of the game. However, once you
have maxed luck, and a potion of holy water, I'd switch to darts.
chuckcar
news:1164667716....@n67g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
You only need 20 or so daggers as they never get used up. As far as
weight goes if 20 daggers are a problem, maybe you haven't been
exercising enough, because at that point, you should have maxed out most
of your stats at least.
--
(setq (chuck nil) car(chuck) )
Jove
Short version: Knives are your best bet. They don't disappear and
weigh half as much as daggers/rocks. OTOH, elven daggers don't need
to be foo-proofed. It might be worth going with elven daggers just
for that. Learn to carry less other stuff and focus on defense and
offense.
Only multishot available is the sling, but rocks disappear and can't
be enchanted. They also don't do much base damage, nor do they get
strength bonus when fired from a sling. Having to wield a sling is
also non-optimal.
Boomerangs can get to Expert, but aren't multishot and are hard to
find. They only travel in a straight line for two squares, which can
be good or bad. They have high base damage and don't vanish. Can't
be poisoned. YANI: Archs start with a +0 blessed boomerang.
Darts disappear rapidly if not blessed and with high luck. High
enchantment will also help. They can be poisoned. There are
generally many dart traps to #untrap. There are two guaranteed dart
traps in the VotD. Generally by the time you can have a large stack
of highly enchanted non-vanishing darts you no longer need them.
--
Welcome to NetHack. | I take what I'm given.
| You exploit the game.
All the best, | He's an abusive cheater.
Jove (Joe Bednorz)
anan...@gmail.com
carlh...@gmail.com wrote:
> Many people espouse the virtues of daggers, but since I can only get to
> basic with daggers, would I be just as well off using a big stack of
> enchanted darts? Darts are only a tenth of the weight, do just about
> as much damage, and throw at the same rate. That would leave me with
> some space in my inventory for wands of cold and/or fire.
Since you are about to enter Gehennom you must have found at least one
Robe and you must have increased your intelligence to quite high. You
must
try using magic missiles for the ranged weapon. Other than that
(silver, if you
have spare wishes) daggers are good secondary ranged weapon in
gehennom.
Without additional throws daggers and other missiles are not so good.
-anandsr
Ohle Claussen
>
> carlh...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Many people espouse the virtues of daggers, but since I can only get to
>> basic with daggers, would I be just as well off using a big stack of
>> enchanted darts? Darts are only a tenth of the weight, do just about
>> as much damage, and throw at the same rate. That would leave me with
>> some space in my inventory for wands of cold and/or fire.
>
> Since you are about to enter Gehennom you must have found at least one
> Robe and you must have increased your intelligence to quite high. You
> must
Many musts there. Robes can be very rare, and increasing intelligence takes
some effort.
> try using magic missiles for the ranged weapon. Other than that
Magic missile can be a good option. Depends on how much mana you'll have to
spare (i.e., how often you cast, what other spells you use).
> (silver, if you
> have spare wishes) daggers are good secondary ranged weapon in
> gehennom.
Daggers have the advantage that they're easily available. I once ascended a
Valk with no ranged weapons except a +7 fixed spetum for mindflayers and
the like, which worked out quite well, but sadly archeologists are
restricted in polearms.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"I want to reduce our own nuclear capacities to the level commiserate with
keeping the peace." --dubya
carlh...@gmail.com
>
> Magic missile can be a good option. Depends on how much mana you'll have to
> spare (i.e., how often you cast, what other spells you use).
>
Thanks for all of the good advice. Although I have a robe and maxed
out stats, I was hoping to use a CoMR for my cloak slot and also did
not want to depend on mana for my ranged weapon as I understand that
the Amulet of Yendor drains mana rather fast. Also, when I attack
mindflayers and other creatures that I do not want to engage, the
monsters seem able to resist my spells. Perhaps that goes away as my
level increases? Or does it?
So far, I am leaning towards fooproofing and enchanting a stack of
knives. I hadn't realized that they weighed half as much as daggers.
I'll use a combination of knives and Magic Missile as appropriate. Or
even throw rocks, if they're handy.
It's also time to start ditching extra weight. That should help a lot.
Thanks!
Jove
<<1164760922.4...@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>>:
>
>>
>> Magic missile can be a good option. Depends on how much mana you'll have to
>> spare (i.e., how often you cast, what other spells you use).
>>
>
>Thanks for all of the good advice. Although I have a robe and maxed
>out stats, I was hoping to use a CoMR for my cloak slot and also did
>not want to depend on mana for my ranged weapon as I understand that
>the Amulet of Yendor drains mana rather fast.
It will double your average mana use when spells are cast while
carrying it. It's possible to drop the amulet for casting spells,
just don't forget it afterwards.
>Also, when I attack
>mindflayers and other creatures that I do not want to engage, the
>monsters seem able to resist my spells. Perhaps that goes away as my
>level increases? Or does it?
It depends on whether the spell is resistable or not. Attack spells
generally can't be resisted by monsters, intrinsic magic resistance.
Extrinsic magic resistance, such as CoMR, can resist attack spells.
Reflection can also deflect some attack spells (e.g. magic missile,
finger of death)
The damage done by the magic missile spell goes up with your
character's XL. [(XL/2) + 1]d6 is the damage done. At XL 14 that's
28 points of damage per hit per monster. Remember, you can get
multiple hits with a single cast of the spell. Either on multiple
monsters or bouncing the spell to hit the same monster more than once.
At XL:30 Magic missile does 56 points of damage per hit.
>
>So far, I am leaning towards fooproofing and enchanting a stack of
>knives. I hadn't realized that they weighed half as much as daggers.
Note that only applies to Archaeologists, Cavemen, Knights and
Samurai, because they can only get to Basic skill with daggers and can
get to at least Basic with knives. Since the damage will be the same
for each weapon go with the lighter knives.
Daggers are multishot capable at Skilled+. Healers can get to
Skilled with daggers: d2 daggers per fling. Rangers, Rogues,
Tourists, Valkyries, and Wizards can get to Expert: d3 daggers per
fling. Rangers and Rogues get an additional role bonus chance of an
additional dagger: d4 per fling at Expert. (You haven't lived until
you've played a Ranger or Rogue averaging d4 daggers per firing.)
Barbarians can get to basic with daggers and are restricted with
knives, so they should use daggers as well.
Monks and Priests are restricted in both dagger and knife, but there
are dagger artifacts they might get as divine gifts. Divine gifts
unlock skill restrictions to basic (if applicable). There are no
artifact knives. So Monks and Priests should use knives until/unless
they unlock the dagger skill, then switch.
>I'll use a combination of knives and Magic Missile as appropriate. Or
>even throw rocks, if they're handy.
That's the spirit. Instead of rocks, throw darts. Same damage,
one-tenth the weight, and can be poisoned. They'll get used up fast
if not blessed with high luck.
>
>It's also time to start ditching extra weight. That should help a lot.
>
>Thanks!
Glad to help anyone who listens.
grandtheftgato
Blessed Poisoned Rustproof +5 Darts, my friend. I used to be a member
of the cult of the dagger, but I've since seen the light and moved on
to The Way of the Dart. Daggers are too heavy, plain and simple, and
can't be poisoned to boot. My AK lately has included a stack of 40-120
Blessed Poisoned Rustproof +5 Darts (80% of the pile goes into the BoH)
and they're very useful in places like VotD and Moloch's Sanctum where
you've got large rooms connected to long hallways you can camp at the
end of and throw darts at the single-file horde from outside the range
of even their wands. You simply cannot carry enough daggers to make
them worth it in my opinion. 7-20 is too heavy and not enough to boot!
Also, Poisoned darts can instakill Titans, which is helpful on medusa..
one zap of teleport, quick self-blinding or detect monsters to see
where he ended up, get lined up outside the range of his spells and 3
or 4 darts later "the poison was deadly...". Mastery or even skill not
required, but helpful nonetheless.
Final advice / anecdote. When I'm polypiling my small stacks of 3 rows
of 2 holy water, 2 blessed scrolls and whatever unicorn horns I've
picked up along the way, rounding each pile out with a single +5 dart
results in lots of neat weapons, polearms, silver daggers or spears,
all at +5.
carlh...@gmail.com
Thanks for bringing this thread back up as I'm still playing the same
game. It's taking me a while because I only play a little each day and
am being VERY careful as I intend it to be my YAFAP. A few questions
have come up that maybe someone can offer some advice on:
1) Regarding poisoning weapons: what is the practical implication of
using poisoned weapons as a Lawful character?
2) Regarding ranged combat: with an AC of -52 (intrinsic -3 and 7
items enchanted to +5), all resistances, reflection, and MR how much do
I need to worry about meleeing? Am I going to get into trouble if I
try to melee my way through the rest of the game? The remaining
baddies are the named demons and ranged weapons don't work against them
anyway.
Thanks to all for your help, I have almost all of my AK(tm) fixed up
and have about 500 hp and once I find a CoMR (in case Rodney steals the
Orb of Detection), I'll be set.
>
> Final advice / anecdote. When I'm polypiling my small stacks of 3 rows
> of 2 holy water, 2 blessed scrolls and whatever unicorn horns I've
> picked up along the way, rounding each pile out with a single +5 dart
> results in lots of neat weapons, polearms, silver daggers or spears,
> all at +5.
Cool trick, thanks for the advice. but I do stacks of 3 holy waters
and 3 blessed scrolls. Seems to work okay. So far I've burned
through at least 2 dozen magical armors trying to get a cloak or magic
resistance and I've collected every pick and mirror in the dungeon
hoping to be able to get a saddle with which I can ride my grey dragon
into victory. It might make me a bit slower but it's gonna look sweet!
grandtheftgato
Every one that hits will damage your luck or standing with your God or
something. It's a bad scene. Still, you can get Greyswandir so there's
that going for you.
> 2) Regarding ranged combat: with an AC of -52 (intrinsic -3 and 7
> items enchanted to +5), all resistances, reflection, and MR how much do
> I need to worry about meleeing? Am I going to get into trouble if I
> try to melee my way through the rest of the game? The remaining
> baddies are the named demons and ranged weapons don't work against them
> anyway.
I don't understand.. ranged weapons work great against demons,
especially if they're blessed and silver. You just fire 'em at melee
range, that's all.
Ever onward..
Your stats are appropriately (that is to say: absurdly) high for an
ascention run. The baddies aren't the true danger. Cursed BoHs or 2HD
weapons, rust monsters, disenchanters, 'trices, nymphs stealing
important stuff, green slimes, the riders, and mind flayers -- those
are the dangerous ones. The less time spent doing anything in the
ascention run, the better, and that especially includes melee combat.
> Cool trick, thanks for the advice. but I do stacks of 3 holy waters
> and 3 blessed scrolls. Seems to work okay. So far I've burned
> through at least 2 dozen magical armors trying to get a cloak or magic
> resistance and I've collected every pick and mirror in the dungeon
> hoping to be able to get a saddle with which I can ride my grey dragon
> into victory. It might make me a bit slower but it's gonna look sweet!
I've just finished my 4th ascention (Wiz, Arch, Tou, Monk) and I've got
to say I don't reccommend trying an ascention with a mount. The
elemental plains are like meat grinders for pets, riding them or
otherwise. Astral is really the only endgame place where I'm
comfortable with allies. More than comfortable, as my first moves in
astral is to lock the doors, reverse-geno purple worms, charm them, and
teleport them.
God, I love doing that. Nothing but dead priests and angels as far as
the eye can see.
Good luck!
grandtheftgato
> Thanks for bringing this thread back up as I'm still playing the same
> game. It's taking me a while because I only play a little each day and
> am being VERY careful as I intend it to be my YAFAP. A few questions
> have come up that maybe someone can offer some advice on:
>
> 1) Regarding poisoning weapons: what is the practical implication of
> using poisoned weapons as a Lawful character?
Every one that hits will damage your luck or standing with your God or
something. It's a bad scene. Still, you can get Greyswandir so there's
that going for you.
> 2) Regarding ranged combat: with an AC of -52 (intrinsic -3 and 7
> items enchanted to +5), all resistances, reflection, and MR how much do
> I need to worry about meleeing? Am I going to get into trouble if I
> try to melee my way through the rest of the game? The remaining
> baddies are the named demons and ranged weapons don't work against them
> anyway.
I don't understand.. ranged weapons work great against demons,
especially if they're blessed and silver. You just fire 'em at melee
range, that's all.
Ever onward..
Your stats are appropriately (that is to say: absurdly) high for an
ascention run. The baddies aren't the true danger. Cursed BoHs or 2HD
weapons, rust monsters, disenchanters, 'trices, nymphs stealing
important stuff, green slimes, the riders, and mind flayers -- those
are the dangerous ones. The less time spent doing anything in the
ascention run, the better, and that especially includes melee combat.
> Cool trick, thanks for the advice. but I do stacks of 3 holy waters
> and 3 blessed scrolls. Seems to work okay. So far I've burned
> through at least 2 dozen magical armors trying to get a cloak or magic
> resistance and I've collected every pick and mirror in the dungeon
> hoping to be able to get a saddle with which I can ride my grey dragon
> into victory. It might make me a bit slower but it's gonna look sweet!
I've just finished my 4th ascention (Wiz, Arch, Tou, Monk) and I've got
carlh...@gmail.com
> > 2) Regarding ranged combat: with an AC of -52 (intrinsic -3 and 7
> > items enchanted to +5), all resistances, reflection, and MR how much do
> > I need to worry about meleeing? Am I going to get into trouble if I
> > try to melee my way through the rest of the game? The remaining
> > baddies are the named demons and ranged weapons don't work against them
> > anyway.
>
>
> I don't understand.. ranged weapons work great against demons,
> especially if they're blessed and silver. You just fire 'em at melee
> range, that's all.
>
Right, but for an archeologist at melee range, twoweaponing Greyswandir
and silver sabre works far better for me than any ranged weapon.
>
> I've just finished my 4th ascention (Wiz, Arch, Tou, Monk) and I've got
> to say I don't reccommend trying an ascention with a mount. The
> elemental plains are like meat grinders for pets, riding them or
> otherwise. Astral is really the only endgame place where I'm
> comfortable with allies. More than comfortable, as my first moves in
> astral is to lock the doors, reverse-geno purple worms, charm them, and
> teleport them.
>
Good point regarding a mount. Sadly, my grey dragon was disintegrated
by a black dragon before I began my run. Too bad. But from my one
experience in the endgame, I can see what you mean.
Thanks for the advice!
Doug Freyburger
>
> > > 2) Regarding ranged combat: with an AC of -52 (intrinsic -3 and 7
> > > items enchanted to +5), all resistances, reflection, and MR how much do
> > > I need to worry about meleeing? Am I going to get into trouble if I
> > > try to melee my way through the rest of the game? The remaining
> > > baddies are the named demons and ranged weapons don't work against them
> > > anyway.
>
> > I don't understand.. ranged weapons work great against demons,
> > especially if they're blessed and silver. You just fire 'em at melee
> > range, that's all.
>
> Right, but for an archeologist at melee range, twoweaponing Greyswandir
> and silver sabre works far better for me than any ranged weapon.
True when already at melee range. Once one square away you
may as well pummel them with your powerful melee weapons.
But there's an inventory slot for your quiver and there's almost no
downside to firing missiles at monsters before they reach range
one.
Archeologists can only get to basic in dagger, knife or dart so
multifire is out for those weapons. Sling can get to skilled but
rocks and gems can't be enchanted plus rocks are too heavy
for constant use. Rocks may be great for severe overkill in
certain cases were preparation is available, but they suck as
a weapon while exploring.
So may as well go with knives or daggers or darts. Neither
knives nor daggers disappear when thrown. Darts can be
poisoned but disappear unless blessed plus your luck maxxed
out.
So for archelogists, the argument for gathering a quiver of
12-20 blessed fireproof +6 elven daggers is not as strong as
it is for several other classes, but the cost in skill slots isn't
as high either. Sometimes low cost is an argument in favor.
So what that you can only throw one dagger per move? If
you have wands to zap or spells to cast go for it until the
wands run out and your energy drops low, but throwing
daggers is still a lot better than nothing when a spell
casting deamon/lich is advancing towards you. With a
monster sufficiently mean every single turn of melee is a
large risk.
Is it okay to play an archeologist as a melee only? Expect
a very low ascension rate. There are just too many ways to
die when fighting spellcasters. It is okay to rely on spells
instead? Sure, so long as you put plenty of effort into
developing the skills and keeping the attack spells fresh.
But does it hurt to use missiles when you're low on energy
or zaps? Absolutely!