As if hell didn't suck enough already...
ArthurDent
Asmodeus got his hands on a wand of digging.
Janis Papanagnou
> It sucks even more when you can't find a permanent light source and
> Asmodeus got his hands on a wand of digging.
Are those two independent complaints or somehow related?
Just let Asmodeus go and continue your exploration. After 8 (or so)
levels the wand will be empty.
Lacking light in hell is inconvenient, indeed.
BTW; you might like to consider to explore Gehennom bottom up, and
abstain from fully exploring the Gehennom levels once you've located
the stairs.
Janis
James
wrote:
[...]
> BTW; you might like to consider to explore Gehennom bottom up, and
> abstain from fully exploring the Gehennom levels once you've located
> the stairs.
I've heard this suggested several times, but how do you get to the
bottom to start going up? (And isn't it a bit of a pain, not having
explored the level, when the mysterious force puts you back there in a
corner you haven't explored?)
--
James Kanze
David Damerell
>On Dec 17, 7:06 pm, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
>>abstain from fully exploring the Gehennom levels once you've located
>>the stairs.
>I've heard this suggested several times, but how do you get to the
>bottom to start going up?
Controlled levelport. A ring of teleport control is well worth a spare
wish if you don't have one. Controlled levelport is also useful for good
stash discipline and for the "stylish entrance" to the Sanctum.
>(And isn't it a bit of a pain, not having
>explored the level, when the mysterious force puts you back there in a
>corner you haven't explored?)
No, because when that happens, you might choose either to try teleporting
across the level (not affected by exploration) or to move towards the
upstairs directly, digging any wall that gets in your way (exploration at
most saves a few WoDig charges here and you should have plenty).
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Saturday, December - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Sunday, December - a weekend.
Doug Freyburger
>
> And isn't it a bit of a pain, not having
> explored the level, when the mysterious force puts you back there in a
> corner you haven't explored?
This is about exploring not about already having the Amulet. That's
part of why I don't get wanting to explore up. Explore down and after
exploring each level as much as you're going to carve a fast path from
stair to stair. Explore down until you've done Vlad's tower, found the
real or fake enterances to Rodney's levels without going to his area,
found the vibrating square.
Having prepared like that then attack Rodney, rush to the vibrating
square, get the Amulet and dash towards the exit.
sjde...@yahoo.com
I explore down until I find Vlad's, grab the candelabrum, controlled
levelport to the bottom and explore up to find the Tower, get the
book, levelport back down, grab the amulet, and explore up.
Usually I've got enough ?mapping and marker charges to map out
previously-unexplored levels on the way up. You can also use monsters
that flee to the upstairs to find them.
Janis Papanagnou
The mysterious force comes as soon as you have got the Amulet, not
earlier.
What I do is to levelport from the Valley to some level number that
exceeds the maximum, thereby knowing that I've reached the VS level
where I have to step on quite every square to locate the entrance.
At that deep levels I typically meet some purple liches, hit them
until they flee to the upstairs; that way I can locate the stairs
while blindfolded without exploring the level or writing and using
scrolls (or spells) of magic mapping, rinse repeat. That's a very
fast way to cross Gehennom! At some choosen point (e.g. when you're
annoyed by the L's, or when you've explored enough of Gehennom to
cover the rest of of the stairs detection with your scrolls, or if
a couple liches accumulated) you can genocide them and may get a
very useful athame if you're lucky.
Once you've reached the lowest level where Vlad can be, use one of
your scarce scrolls of magic mapping (or write one), continue while
you're in Vlad's possible level interval and until you found a level
with two stairs. Handle Vlad, then levelport to level 1 to prepare
the final steps (get the Book, get the Amulet, climb up).
The missing, yet unexplored levels, the ones between Vlad and the
Valley, are quickly explored with the Amulets clairvoyance property
that you have at that time, or mapped with more scrolls (or spells),
as desired.
At least Juiblex' and Asmodeus' levels are always, and Baalzebub's
level mostly, in the unexplored level range; so you don't need many
scrolls to map those levels, because the general layout is well known.
(And Juiblex will also serve you as a transporter across the swamp if
handled with care, just BTW.)
All in all a very quick traversal of Gehennom.
Janis
James
wrote:
> > [...]
> >> BTW; you might like to consider to explore Gehennom bottom
> >> up, and abstain from fully exploring the Gehennom levels
> >> once you've located the stairs.
> > I've heard this suggested several times, but how do you get
> > to the bottom to start going up? (And isn't it a bit of a
> > pain, not having explored the level, when the mysterious
> > force puts you back there in a corner you haven't explored?)
> The mysterious force comes as soon as you have got the Amulet,
> not earlier.
I know, but if you've not fully explored the level where you end
up, it will put you somewhere you don't know.
> What I do is to levelport from the Valley to some level number
> that exceeds the maximum, thereby knowing that I've reached
> the VS level where I have to step on quite every square to
> locate the entrance.
It's the level teleport that I'd missed. For some reason, I'd
imagined that you couldn't level teleport beyond what you'd
already visited.
> At that deep levels I typically meet some purple liches, hit
> them until they flee to the upstairs; that way I can locate
> the stairs while blindfolded without exploring the level or
> writing and using scrolls (or spells) of magic mapping, rinse
> repeat. That's a very fast way to cross Gehennom! At some
> choosen point (e.g. when you're annoyed by the L's, or when
> you've explored enough of Gehennom to cover the rest of of the
> stairs detection with your scrolls, or if a couple liches
> accumulated) you can genocide them and may get a very useful
> athame if you're lucky.
Do you wait on each level for the L to appear, or do you use the
same one, just following him up.
> Once you've reached the lowest level where Vlad can be, use
> one of your scarce scrolls of magic mapping (or write one),
> continue while you're in Vlad's possible level interval and
> until you found a level with two stairs. Handle Vlad, then
> levelport to level 1 to prepare the final steps (get the Book,
> get the Amulet, climb up). The missing, yet unexplored
> levels, the ones between Vlad and the Valley, are quickly
> explored with the Amulets clairvoyance property that you have
> at that time, or mapped with more scrolls (or spells), as
> desired.
I've almost never had enough scrolls to map all of the levels
where Vlad could be. Which usually means doing a bit of
searching the hard way.
> At least Juiblex' and Asmodeus' levels are always, and
> Baalzebub's level mostly, in the unexplored level range; so
> you don't need many scrolls to map those levels, because the
> general layout is well known. (And Juiblex will also serve
> you as a transporter across the swamp if handled with care,
> just BTW.)
> All in all a very quick traversal of Gehennom.
I'll have to give it a try. Although I don't seem to end up
with teleport control that often---maybe I'm doing something
wrong. (I do know that when I ascend, I generally end up
spending what seems like an ungodly long time in Gehennom.)
--
James Kanze
Janis Papanagnou
> On Dec 19, 4:19 am, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>>> On Dec 17, 7:06 pm, Janis Papanagnou
>>> <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> BTW; you might like to consider to explore Gehennom bottom
>>>> up, and abstain from fully exploring the Gehennom levels
>>>> once you've located the stairs.
>
>>> I've heard this suggested several times, but how do you get
>>> to the bottom to start going up? (And isn't it a bit of a
>>> pain, not having explored the level, when the mysterious
>>> force puts you back there in a corner you haven't explored?)
>
>> The mysterious force comes as soon as you have got the Amulet,
>> not earlier.
>
> I know, but if you've not fully explored the level where you end
> up, it will put you somewhere you don't know.
The most interesting (or rather fundamental) part of information
about a level is where the stairs are. Not knowing that means you
have to perform a boring investigation/exploration in every maze
(and this is even more boring if you have no source of light).
As soon as you have that information you have a lot of options;
use wands or pickaxes to dig a direct connection, use controlled
teleport reach the stairs, or even uncontrolled teleport to come
closer at least, or decide to use other means to leave the level
(up: cursed gain level, down: digging).
Note aside: I find tame and hostile umber hulks especially helpful.
Wait for hostiles to dig paths to you, then teleport away (even
teleporting randomly is often helpful), rinse repeat. Opens short
paths throughout the level. Keep tame ones close to you as a fast
pickaxe substitute.
>
>> What I do is to levelport from the Valley to some level number
>> that exceeds the maximum, thereby knowing that I've reached
>> the VS level where I have to step on quite every square to
>> locate the entrance.
>
> It's the level teleport that I'd missed. For some reason, I'd
> imagined that you couldn't level teleport beyond what you'd
> already visited.
It's possible, though.
>
>> At that deep levels I typically meet some purple liches, hit
>> them until they flee to the upstairs; that way I can locate
>> the stairs while blindfolded without exploring the level or
>> writing and using scrolls (or spells) of magic mapping, rinse
>> repeat. [...]
>
> Do you wait on each level for the L to appear, or do you use the
> same one, just following him up.
I don't wait for them. Sometimes I follow one lich upstairs, and
sometimes I continue the game and occasionally new liches appear.
It's worthwhile to note that in my games the VS level and the
fake tower levels seem to have "hosted" purple L's regularily;
while on the VS level it may be just coincidence (and you really
don't need them there, because you have to thoroughly explore
that level anyway), but the fake wizard towers have guaranteed
(random) L's, which often happen to be those purple ones in my
games.
>
>> Once you've reached the lowest level where Vlad can be, use
>> one of your scarce scrolls of magic mapping (or write one),
>> [...]
>
> I've almost never had enough scrolls to map all of the levels
> where Vlad could be. Which usually means doing a bit of
> searching the hard way.
Finding the entrance to Vlad's tower is something that you have
to do with either way of exploration (bottom-up, or top-down).
Knowing the level range where the entrance is located reduces
the amount of "necessary" scrolls to just 5, or 3 on average;
an amount that is not uncommon to have in one's possession. One
certainly cannot avoid that searching in all games and on all
levels; it depends on the actual game and we know the RNG can be
stingy at times. But note also that writing this type of scroll
is one of the most unexpensive (only 4-7 charges required).
>
>> [...]
>
>> All in all a very quick traversal of Gehennom.
>
> I'll have to give it a try. Although I don't seem to end up
> with teleport control that often---maybe I'm doing something
> wrong. (I do know that when I ascend, I generally end up
> spending what seems like an ungodly long time in Gehennom.)
No, you're not doing anything wrong if the RNG decides to not
provide you with TC. But it's worth to try to get it by other
means. Polypiling rings, or (more risky because of teleportitis)
from reverse genociding tengu. I occasionally even wish for the
ring of TC in case I'm still missing it at some point in the game
(usually after the midgame stage).
Janis
7aboir
3ff7a6...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:
> On Dec 19, 4:19 am, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> James wrote:
>> > On Dec 17, 7:06 pm, Janis Papanagnou
>> > <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > [...]
Just my two cents: I mainly explore/dig down below VoTD until Asmodeus,
then levelport to 99 with him next to me, then just need to be careful
enough not to kill him before he escape upstair.
Much less painful than waiting for purple L.
Sure, you still need to walk-map bottom level for VS, and the levels where
stairs to Vlad can exists.
Daemon mapping shorten dramatically time in hell...
> --
> James Kanze
Richard Bos
> On Dec 19, 4:19 am, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
> > Once you've reached the lowest level where Vlad can be, use
> > one of your scarce scrolls of magic mapping (or write one),
> > continue while you're in Vlad's possible level interval and
> > until you found a level with two stairs. Handle Vlad, then
> > levelport to level 1 to prepare the final steps (get the Book,
> > get the Amulet, climb up). The missing, yet unexplored
> > levels, the ones between Vlad and the Valley, are quickly
> > explored with the Amulets clairvoyance property that you have
> > at that time, or mapped with more scrolls (or spells), as
> > desired.
>
> I've almost never had enough scrolls to map all of the levels
> where Vlad could be. Which usually means doing a bit of
> searching the hard way.
That is where clairvoyance comes in very handy. You can buy it from any
priest; the one in the Valley will do just as well as any other. No,
neither Moloch nor your own god will mind.
> > All in all a very quick traversal of Gehennom.
>
> I'll have to give it a try. Although I don't seem to end up
> with teleport control that often---maybe I'm doing something
> wrong.
Identify every ring, especially the expensive ones.
Some people like to eat tengu until they have both teleportitis and TC,
but I don't. Partly that's because you are liable to spend quite a while
dealing with teleportitis without having TC (though this chance can be
mitigated if you have a tinning kit), which, though survivable, is a
true pain in the neck; partly it's because I don't particularly like
teleportitis even _with_ TC. It is, however, a valid option.
Richard