Lycanthrope Survival Tips?

[wumpus]

Howdy,

I just lost my best lycanthropic character to date, a rogue, once again, essentially, due to lack of magic cancellation. I'd managed to do both Sokoban and the Mines, and was working on Grund's.

I'd started with impressive stats and a pistol, and had, eventually, discovered that there was a very large jewelers' shop on level 3. Once I had the money, I bought out all the high end rings and tested them (with a wand of enlightenment) until I found slow digestion, which allowed me to play the game at a more measured pace, not running from level to level as fast as I could to keep myself from starving.

Unfortunately, the guardians in the front of Grund's had a wand of lightning, and they managed to blow up my ring. Searching for a replacement, I encountered an arc bug while in the Mall's general store. I was in wolf form at the time, and foolishly didn't bother to change form and put on my cloak of protection, which turned out to be a fatal mistake.

I got zapped, and it blew up my wand of sleep...while I was standing next to the shopkeeper, who promptly got angry. All the items I could've used to pacify or defeat the shopkeeper were in my bag of holding (Grundians also burned up my last scroll of teleportation), but I didn't have enough hit points in my human form to make it through a round of combat without permadying. I tried zapping him with my wand of fireball (I was resistant), but the two hits I got in weren't enough to kill him before he could kill me in both forms.

Anyway... Does anyone have any tips for playing lycanthropes? They're the last 'challenging' Slash'EM race I've tried, and they seem very difficult. The hunger issue is the biggest problem; I guess it's not as bad as vampiric hunger, but it's pretty bad. After that, carrying capacity in wolf form is a big problem - even with a blessed bag of holding I was always just below the edge of Stressed. And finally, there's the problem of magic cancellation; in wolf form, there's no way to have any, so you get to experience all the joys of opposing monsters' special attacks. This makes me particularly paranoid of cockatrices and other stoning monsters, though, of course, I'm already tremendously paranoid of them, as I'm pretty sure the first time I accidentally run into one and bite it (due to too many taps on the screen) I'll be instantly turned to stone?

I guess polymorph control solves the latter two issues? Seems like once you get poly control you just play the rest of the game in human form? That seems lame, but I don't see why you'd want the one real advantage of wolf form - the impermanence of death - when it comes with so many crippling disadvantages.

Am I missing something? Or is the lycanthropic race meant to be the ultimate handicap/challenge?

Thanks,
Alex

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 02.05.2013 20:18, wumpus wrote:
> Howdy,
>
> I just lost my best lycanthropic character to date, a rogue, once again,
> essentially, due to lack of magic cancellation. I'd managed to do both
> Sokoban and the Mines, and was working on Grund's.

What's "Grund's"?

>
> I'd started with impressive stats and a pistol, [snip]

What game are you talking about?

Janis

[wumpus]

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 11:23:32 AM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
> On 02.05.2013 20:18, wumpus wrote:
>
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I just lost my best lycanthropic character to date, a rogue, once again,
> > essentially, due to lack of magic cancellation. I'd managed to do both
> > Sokoban and the Mines, and was working on Grund's.
>
> What's "Grund's"?

Grund's Stronghold, home of Grund the Orc King.

> > I'd started with impressive stats and a pistol, [snip]
>
> What game are you talking about?

Slash'EM. Is there some other nethack variant that you can play a lycanthrope in?

Alex

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 02.05.2013 20:38, wumpus wrote:
>
> Slash'EM. Is there some other nethack variant that you can play a lycanthrope in?

How should I know?

First I thought you were talking about lycanthropy, which you can get
in Nethack.

It would help to add a [variant] tag in the subject like so that folks
not interested in specific variants can skip such long postings.

Thanks.

Janis

[wumpus]

Sorry to have inconvenienced you - I hope you didn't have to read the whole thing in order to figure out that it wasn't interesting to you. <insert smiley thing here>

I've gotten out of the habit of using bracketed tags in subject lines, as previous versions of Google's interface suppressed them (so non-Google users could see them, but I couldn't, which was quite confusing). I see that their current interface shows them again, so I'll try to remember them in the future. (Of course, I'm never quite sure what exactly the capitalization of Slash'EM or SLASH'EM or Slash'em or...is supposed to be, but I guess any variant should be good enough.)

Alex

[Janis Papanagnou]

On 02.05.2013 22:11, wumpus wrote:
>
> Sorry to have inconvenienced you - I hope you didn't have to read the whole thing in order to figure out that it wasn't interesting to you. <insert smiley thing here>

Don't worry, I've only read up to the point where I replaced your text by
the ellipsis. ;-}

Janis

[Prometheus77]

Wumpus wrote:

> I just lost my best lycanthropic
> character to date, a rogue, once
> again, essentially, due to lack of
> magic cancellation.

Sorry to hear that. I finally ascended my first lycanthrope (also my first rogue) last week, so this is good timing.

> I found slow digestion, which
> allowed me to play the game at a
> more measured pace, not running
> from level to level as fast as I could
> to keep myself from starving.

Compared to Vampire, I didn't find the lycanthrope hunger all that challenging. You get full nutrition out of corpses and you can eat poisonous ones in wolf form. I think I had to pray once in the mines. Once I got to Sokoban, I was never in danger of starving again. My vampire always ended up praying regularly until that =oSD came along. I recommend taking lycanthropes slowly and carefully, praying when necessary.

> Unfortunately, the guardians in the
> front of Grund's had a wand of
> lightning, and they managed to blow
> up my ring.

I used to try to do Grund's after Sokoban, and I just ended up losing too many promising characters. Now I won't do it unless I have reflection, fire resistance, and at least 200 hp. I almost always do Sam's and the Chaotic Quest (in that order) before Grund's.

> Searching for a replacement, I
> encountered an arc bug while in the
> Mall's general store.

I didn't realize MC protects you from arc bug zaps. I always use ranged weapons or magic missile on the strong x's. It's not worth the risk. As a rogue, I'm surprised you didn't pummel it with daggers. You had done Grund's and had your wand of fireball, so you could have burned E if necessary.

> Anyway... Does anyone have any
> tips for playing lycanthropes?

Yes. Just like playing Vampire is a race for the =oSD, Lycanthrope is a race for the =oPC. Once you get it, you never take it off (unless you manage to eat it and get the intrinsic). Essentially, you pretend like you're a human with a cursed ring of regeneration.

Here are some suggestions:

1. Drop your armor and your sword right away. Collect daggers and advance skill as high as possible. Throw daggers in your wolf form.

2. Take advantage of your regeneration to run away, heal, and re-engage.

3. Summon as many wolves as your power will allow. Don't bother trying to take them from level to level unless you have a magic whistle (you can always summon more). In fact letting some go feral will provide you with a hearty meal later on.

4. Make stashes at the top of every staircase. Don't bother trying to put stuff in a container. Next to your inability to wear armor, your carrying capacity is your biggest weakness, and this is your best way to deal with it.

5. Don't bother sacrificing for artifacts until you have polymorph control.

6. If you get an early wish, use it on polymorph control. If you find a ring worth 300, put it on unless it's cursed. Kick sinks and get as many rings as possible.

7. Do Minetown first. Look for rings or a magic lamp, which a wolf can steal for you. Don't forget the sink, or hidden ring, depending on the layout. Do the mall second. Do Sokoban third, and price test the rings you find back at the mall. Do Sam's fourth. I realize it feels risky going to level 22-23 right after Sokoban, but trust me on this. All you need to clean out Sam's is a single scroll of earth (guaranteed in Sokoban) and a wand of teleport (nearly guaranteed at Sam's). If you don't get poly control by the time you've cleared out Sam's, you're in for a tough game...

> The hunger issue is the biggest
> problem; I guess it's not as bad as
> vampiric hunger, but it's pretty bad.

As above, hunger isn't that bad. Not being able to wear armor, wield weapons, carry much stuff, or open containers is what gets you.

> After that, carrying capacity in
> wolf form is a big problem - even
> with a blessed bag of holding I was
> always just below the edge of
> Stressed.

Why bother with the BoH if you have to #youpoly any time you want to use it?

> And finally, there's the problem of
> magic cancellation; in wolf form,

> there's no way to have any...

> I guess polymorph control solves
> the latter two issues? Seems like
> once you get poly control you just
> play the rest of the game in human
> form?

Yes. And you get sick to death of the question: "Do you want to change into a wolf?" You're flying on a ki-rin over a pool of lava, and it asks, "Do you want to change into a wolf?"

> Am I missing something? Or is the
> lycanthropic race meant to be the
> ultimate handicap/challenge?

Lycanthropes are hard, but as they go, Rogues are probably the best role for it. Lycanthrope Barbarian is hard. Trying to do mid-game or late game with no poly control would be insanely difficult. That's the kind of thing someone who has done zen conduct might try, but if you're still reading rather than writing spoilers, it's probably not or you.

Hope that helps. Keep trying, you can always fountain dip for an early wish if your not opposed to meta gaming.

-Prometheus

[Capt. Cave Man]

On Fri, 03 May 2013 01:32:28 +0200, Janis Papanagnou
<janis_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 02.05.2013 22:11, wumpus wrote:
>>

snipped illegal length text line...

>Don't worry, I've only read up to the point where I replaced your text by
>the ellipsis. ;-}
>
>Janis

An ellipsis... monster!


Don't forget... only three!

RUN!... ... ... ... ... :-P

[wumpus]

Howdy Prometheus,

On Thursday, May 2, 2013 6:32:34 PM UTC-7, Prometheus77 wrote:
> Wumpus wrote:
>
> > I just lost my best lycanthropic
> > character to date, a rogue, once
> > again, essentially, due to lack of
> > magic cancellation.
>
> Sorry to hear that. I finally ascended my first lycanthrope (also my first rogue) last week, so this is good timing.
>

> > Unfortunately, the guardians in the
> > front of Grund's had a wand of
> > lightning, and they managed to blow
> > up my ring.
>
> I used to try to do Grund's after Sokoban, and I just ended up losing too many promising characters. Now I won't do it unless I have reflection, fire resistance, and at least 200 hp. I almost always do Sam's and the Chaotic Quest (in that order) before Grund's.

I'm afraid I may have gotten a little complacent about Grund's. Most of my recent games involved the droven Undead Slayer I was working on forever; sleep touch makes you lazy. That said, I don't really fear Grund's that much, though you're right that you really shouldn't try it without fire resistance or reflection. (Hell hounds are nasty.)

I've never thought about doing Sam's before the Quests - that's probably a good idea.

> > Searching for a replacement, I
> > encountered an arc bug while in the
> > Mall's general store.
>
> I didn't realize MC protects you from arc bug zaps. I always use ranged weapons or magic missile on the strong x's. It's not worth the risk. As a rogue, I'm surprised you didn't pummel it with daggers. You had done Grund's and had your wand of fireball, so you could have burned E if necessary.

With MC3, the zaps are few and far between, and the zaps that manage to blow stuff up are even rarer, so I perhaps have developed an insufficiently wary approach to x. (Esp. given my post a while back where I died due to drowning after an electric eel blew up my ring of levitation.)

As to why I didn't range kill it, I was in the general store. I didn't want to have to buy back my stack of +5 elven daggers. Unfortunately, for want of either polying into human form or splurging on ranged attacks, I ended up dead.

> > Anyway... Does anyone have any
> > tips for playing lycanthropes?
>
> Yes. Just like playing Vampire is a race for the =oSD, Lycanthrope is a race for the =oPC. Once you get it, you never take it off (unless you manage to eat it and get the intrinsic). Essentially, you pretend like you're a human with a cursed ring of regeneration.

I guess that's what I was afraid of. I just don't like the balance sheet. Vampires get all sorts of advantages, and their disadvantages basically go away with a =oSD. Lycanthropes get minimal advantages, and they almost completely vanish if you wear a =oPC full time. Sure, you have regeneration, but regeneration is not hard to come by, compared with poly control. Otherwise, what, you've got a couple techniques and can summon wolves? High physical stats? It seems like a handicap, but then I guess droven seems like a straight advantage, so maybe I'm wrong to expect it to be about 'different' like vampire or doppleganger is.

> Here are some suggestions:

Snipped. I was already doing most of these, though the emphasis on wishes and ring scoping is the important bit, and the bit that I need to double down on if I'm really serious about lycanthropy.

> Hope that helps. Keep trying, you can always fountain dip for an early wish if your not opposed to meta gaming.

Thanks,
Alex

[Jorgen Grahn]

On Thu, 2013-05-02, Jukka Lahtinen wrote:

> wumpus <wum...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>> them in the future. (Of course, I'm never quite sure what exactly the
>> capitalization of Slash'EM or SLASH'EM or Slash'em or...is supposed to be,
>> but I guess any variant should be good enough.)
>

> I guess we'll recognize it regardless of the capitalization.

An [S] would be enough for me.

/Jorgen,
who also skips all variant-related postings

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .

[Capt. Cave Man]

On 4 May 2013 11:33:40 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

>
>An [S] would be enough for me.

It was enough for Superman!

[Prometheus77]

On Friday, May 3, 2013 12:50:03 PM UTC-5, wumpus wrote:
> Howdy Prometheus,
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 2, 2013 6:32:34 PM UTC-7, Prometheus77 wrote:
>
> > Wumpus wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I just lost my best lycanthropic
> > > character to date, a rogue, once
> > > again, essentially, due to lack of
> > > magic cancellation.

(snip)

My view is that SLASH'EM isn't really about balance, it's about Super Lotsa Added Stuff and Extra Magic. If you want balance, play SporkHack. If you want loads of artifacts and cool new races, classes, monsters, levels, and spells, play SLASH'EM. The lack of balance is probably why half of this thread is people talking about how they don't like variants...

I prefer variety to balance, and SLASH'EM has heaps of that. I view Vampire and Lycanthrope as "hard mode" races, and Doppelganger and Drow as "easy mode". Same with roles: Knights and Valks are "easy mode", Tourist and Necromancer are "hard mode". I was really proud of myself when I ascended a vampire necromancer, definitely my hardest race/role combo to date.

In terms of a different play experience, with a few exceptions (Wizard, Tourist, Monk) I tend to play all roles/races very similarly in the late game. The real difference is always the early game, and lycanthropes are definitely a uniquely challenging experience in the early game.

-Prometheus