Safely converting the minetown altar.
bli...@gmail.com
How to Safely Convert the Minetown Altar
========================================
There's a very simple and safe way to convert the minetown altar,
and all it takes is an uncursed scroll of earth. The basic idea is to
trap the temple priest between a wall of boulders and one of the temple
walls. This can be easily achieved with a little knowledge of the
priest's movement logic.
There are two basic temple layouts we need to consider. First, let's
consider the simpler case of a temple with a wall only three squares
wide. In the following diagrams, the priest will be marked with an
'H'. This temple layout is from "Grotto Town":
-------
|...H.|
|.._.x|
|..@..|
---+---
Because of a peculiarity in the priest's movement routine (explained in
detail below), the 'x' marks the only space that the priest is allowed
to move to from the illustrated position. Once the priest has moved
there, we read our scroll of earth:
-------
|.....|
|.000H|
|.0@0.|
---+---
Then move north:
-------
|..0H.|
|.0@0x|
|.000.|
---+---
Again, the 'x' marks the only space that the priest is allowed to move
to. We wait in this current position until the priest moves, then move
northwest:
-------
|.@0..|
|.0_0H|
|.000.|
---+---
Again, because of a peculiarity in the priest's AI, he will not be
able to move north from his current position. This allows us to move
the boulder into place and trap him against the wall.
-------
|..@0.|
|.0_0H|
|.000.|
---+---
Here, the minetown altar is yours to convert. The priest will get
angry as usual. But since he can't target you, you're perfectly
safe. If another monster manages to break him free of his prison,
you'll have a fight on your hands.
In larger temples, it will be necessary to trap the priest in the
corner. This layout is from "Frontier Town":
---+--
|....|
|.H0.|
|x0@0|
|.000|
------
In this diagram, we've started as above. However, here the priest
has slightly more freedom to move around. Now is a good time to
explain a bit of the priest's movement logic.
The priest's AI first randomly chooses one of the nine positions on and
around the altar, then moves the priest in the direction that takes him
closest to that target square.
---+--
|....|
|.xxx|
|.x_x|
|.xxx|
------
However, there is one very important restriction on the priest's
movement: he is not allowed to move *into* your line of fire if he is
already *outside of* your line of fire:
---+--
|\.|.|
|H\|/|
|--@-|
|./|\|
------
If he is already inside of your line of fire, then this restriction
doesn't apply and he's allowed to move anywhere. From the foregoing,
we can see that from here:
---+--
|....|
|.H0.|
|x0@0|
|.000|
------
The priest can and will eventually walk onto the square marked with an
'x', which is what we want. If however, we have:
---+--
|\.|.|
|H\0.|
|-0@0|
|.000|
------
We see that the priest is trapped between our lines of fire. It'll be
necessary to move in order to open the way to the 'x'.
Once the priest has stepped onto the desired square, we can move to
trap him in the corner. First by moving northeast:
---+--
|....|
|--0@|
|H0_0|
|.000|
------
We see here that the priest is not allowed to move north or northeast,
allowing us to shove the boulder against the wall:
---+--
|....|
|0@..|
|H0_0|
|x000|
------
Then, once the priest wanders onto the desired spot in the corner, we
trap him:
---+--
|....|
|@...|
|00_0|
|H000|
------
The priest should have about a 2/3 chance of moving out of the corner
immediately after wandering into it. If this happens, you'll get this:
---+--
|@...|
|0...|
|I0_0|
|.000|
------
Which doesn't take a turn, so you'll be able to move southeast to keep
him trapped against the wall. 1/3 of the time, he should stay put in
the corner long enough for you to put the boulder in place.
Don't worry if the priest wanders around a bit. Keep in mind your
lines of fire, and you'll be able to corral him onto the correct
square.
Haakon Studebaker
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Please view with a fixed-width font.
>
> How to Safely Convert the Minetown Altar
> ========================================
tl;dr
Short version
Big pet
Minetown Priest bites it
Sac minetown priest (if chaotic or not your species)
???
Profit
John H.
> Please view with a fixed-width font.
>
> How to Safely Convert the Minetown Altar
Good thinking! I trust you've tested this all out in wizard mode?
- John H.
Jove
Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
- Find non-cursed digging implement (There's a handy altar.)
- pick-axe
- broad pick
- Find rocks
Dig out wall of temple
- so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
- Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
--
Welcome to NetHack. | I take what I'm given.
| You exploit the game.
All the best, | He's an abusive cheater.
Jove (Joe Bednorz)
jayt...@googlemail.com
> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
The resources are guaranteed for the OP's version too (2?oE in
Sokoban), and has the advantage of not having to kill the priest.
--
Regards,
James
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
>
>The resources are guaranteed for the OP's version too (2?oE in
>Sokoban),
If:
- You've done Sokoban first and:
- Some monster didn't get/read the scrolls before you did.
(I learned this one the hard way.)
- You didn't use the scrolls to finish Sokoban.
- You didn't use the scrolls to make an emergency stone fort.
- One of the best emergency items in the game.
- That's why the DevTeam nerfed it in most of the Endgame.
- The scroll didn't burn up
- wand of fire at you
- fire effect of a magic trap
- fire trap(?) (Do they show up that early?)
- fire breath (Possible that early?)
To me that means possible, maybe probable if the player works at it.
That's not guaranteed nearly as much as rocks and a digging implement.
And there are better uses for scrolls of earth.
>and has the advantage of not having to kill the priest.
Not sure that follows:
- Killing the priest is a lot easier.
- Resources are 100% guaranteed.
- A live hostile priest is a DYWYPI waiting to happen.
bli...@gmail.com
> Dig out wall of temple
> - so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
> - Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
When I try this, the town guard becomes hostile. A warhorse can kill
the priest, but my intent was to show an alternative to killing
townspeople with a buff pet. You've enumerated a bunch of ways the
player *could* lose their scrolls of earth, but that's simply the
nature of the game.
rpresser
Jove wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2006 06:14:06 -0700, jayt...@googlemail.com wrote:
>
> >Jove wrote:
> >> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
> >
> >The resources are guaranteed for the OP's version too (2?oE in
> >Sokoban),
>
> If:
> - You've done Sokoban first and:
> - Some monster didn't get/read the scrolls before you did.
> (I learned this one the hard way.)
> - You didn't use the scrolls to finish Sokoban.
Implicit in this last is the idea that you might half-complete the
first level of Sokoban, retrieve the scrolls, and leave.
jayt...@googlemail.com
> On 3 Oct 2006 06:14:06 -0700, jayt...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >Jove wrote:
> >> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
> >
> >The resources are guaranteed for the OP's version too (2?oE in
> >Sokoban),
>
> If:
> - You've done Sokoban first and:
If you haven't done Sokoban first, this technique is a good reason to
do so.
> [...list of ways to lose scrolls of earth...]
I find it's exceptionally rare to not have those ?oE available.
> And there are better uses for scrolls of earth.
I'm not so sure there are. You can't guarantee the sokoban scrolls
are blessed in the early game, and non-blessed ?oE are a somewhat
dodgy escape item. Compare this to the huge advantage of a
co-aligned altar.
> >and has the advantage of not having to kill the priest.
>
> Not sure that follows:
> - Killing the priest is a lot easier.
> - Resources are 100% guaranteed.
> - A live hostile priest is a DYWYPI waiting to happen.
If you kill the priest, you'll lose your telepathy, take a -2 Luck
penalty, and a -11 alignment penalty. And throwing rocks from
outside is a highly unreliable way of killing priests anyway
(angry guards, lots of time spent collecting rocks, summon
insects spell from the priest).
--
Regards,
James
Jove
That risks leaving Sokoban unsolvable. One monster with a wand of
striking can make a level unsolvable by breaking boulders.
Only way that makes sense is if the character already has a bag of
holding and an amulet of reflection when they get to Sokoban. NB: Not
just a source of reflection, an actual amulet of reflection. An amulet
of reflection makes nurse dancing a lot safer.
Even then I'd prefer finishing Sokoban for the strength, wands, food,
and experience. Especially since the scrolls of Earth aren't critical
for converting the MineTown altar. (The MineTown altar might even be
co-aligned.)
Doug Freyburger
> Jove wrote:
>
> > Dig out wall of temple
> > - so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
> > - Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
>
> When I try this, the town guard becomes hostile.
I've killed the minetown priest on a number of occasions and I don't
recall the guard becoming hostile. There must be something I'm
doing different than the description.
A couple of times I stood where the wall used to be not outside.
Pick the wrong wall and the priest can reach you. Enter melee
with a spell user with lots of hit points. Pick a more distant
wall and the diety will still hit you with lightning. Some of my
characters have survived the lightning and gone on, others died
to the lightning.
So what do I do when outside that isn't being mentioned? I like
to herd the watch into rooms and lock the doors. It takes patience
and a key. Keys aren't a problem coming back up from mines
end or with a tough enough pet. I'm also carefully about tracking
down and killing any digging monster until the altar is co-aligned.
Allowing the watch to watch the events isn't something I've tried.
Thanks for the teaching that it isn't safe.
Jove
>bli...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Jove wrote:
>>
>> > Dig out wall of temple
>> > - so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
>> > - Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
>>
>> When I try this, the town guard becomes hostile.
>
>I've killed the minetown priest on a number of occasions and I don't
>recall the guard becoming hostile. There must be something I'm
>doing different than the description.
It happens in wizmode. I only tried it twice. There was a guard in
the temple each time. Maybe only if there's a guard in sight.
Could be dealt with by leading the Minetown Guard up/down stairs.
Yes, peaceful watchmen will follow you up/down stairs. This is also a
great way to kill them one at a time without angering the other guards.
Haakon Studebaker
news:pin4i21m3f6j0mq85...@4ax.com:
> On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 23:15:32 -0500, Haakon Studebaker wrote:
>
>>bli...@gmail.com wrote in news:1159838241.251212.37720
>>@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Please view with a fixed-width font.
>>>
>>> How to Safely Convert the Minetown Altar
>>> ========================================
>>
>>tl;dr
>>
>>Short version
>>
>>Big pet
>>Minetown Priest bites it
>>Sac minetown priest (if chaotic or not your species)
>>???
>>Profit
>
> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
> - Find non-cursed digging implement (There's a handy altar.)
> - pick-axe
> - broad pick
> - Find rocks
>
> Dig out wall of temple
> - so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
> - Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
>
>
GENIUS
blipster8
Jove wrote:
> On 3 Oct 2006 08:13:30 -0700, rpresser wrote:
>
> >
> >Jove wrote:
> >> On 3 Oct 2006 06:14:06 -0700, jayt...@googlemail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >Jove wrote:
> >> >> Even better version. The resources are guaranteed for this one.
> >> >
> >> >The resources are guaranteed for the OP's version too (2?oE in
> >> >Sokoban),
> >>
> >> If:
> >> - You've done Sokoban first and:
> >> - Some monster didn't get/read the scrolls before you did.
> >> (I learned this one the hard way.)
> >> - You didn't use the scrolls to finish Sokoban.
> >
> >Implicit in this last is the idea that you might half-complete the
> >first level of Sokoban, retrieve the scrolls, and leave.
>
> That risks leaving Sokoban unsolvable. One monster with a wand of
> striking can make a level unsolvable by breaking boulders.
The only way this makes Sokoban unsolvable is if monsters break
boulders on 2/more levels (since there are 2 guaranteed scrolls and the
strategy described by the OP would use up only 1 of these). I'm not
sure I can remember having boulders broken on two levels before;
certainly it's not a pressing enough possibility to make me decide to
save both scrolls of earth carefully unless I already have a "oR and
bag of holding.
--
David
delta charlie charlie lima yankee delta echo at gmail dot com
Ohle Claussen
> On 3 Oct 2006 12:00:55 -0700, Doug Freyburger wrote:
>>I've killed the minetown priest on a number of occasions and I don't
>>recall the guard becoming hostile. There must be something I'm
>>doing different than the description.
>
> It happens in wizmode. I only tried it twice. There was a guard in
> the temple each time. Maybe only if there's a guard in sight.
>
> Could be dealt with by leading the Minetown Guard up/down stairs.
> Yes, peaceful watchmen will follow you up/down stairs. This is also a
> great way to kill them one at a time without angering the other guards.
How do you lead them to the stairs? That seems to be the harder part.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #41:
interrupt configuration error
Doug Freyburger
> Jove wrote:
> > Doug Freyburger wrote:
>
> >>I've killed the minetown priest on a number of occasions and I don't
> >>recall the guard becoming hostile. There must be something I'm
> >>doing different than the description.
>
> > Yes, peaceful watchmen will follow you up/down stairs. This is also a
> > great way to kill them one at a time without angering the other guards.
>
> How do you lead them to the stairs? That seems to be the harder part.
The same way I lead pets into shops but with a little extra patience.
Peacefull monsters walk randomly but without running into either you
are the walls. Step next to a watchman and you have slightly
restricted
his freedom of movement. In spite of that restriction he will move
anyways. Out in the open I can herd a watchman in the direction I
want averaging about 1 move in 8 using this random restriction. Get
the watchman against a wall and I can herd him in the direction I
want more like 1 move in 4. Eventually he will enter a doorway and
by stepping in front of the door his next move will be into the room 1
times in 1. Then I am certain I will be able to close the door.
Locking
the door takes another move but all I need do is stand there are close
the door again and again until he moves randomly farther into the
room. I've never had that take more than 3 tries.
Herd the watchman into stepping into a corridor and it gets much
easier to herd him into the chosen room. In a straight corridor step
forward ever time there's a space between you and him. In a
diagonal corridor step diagonally every time he disappears further
into a corridor - This is the exact same strategy I always use to get
my pet into a shop. The only difference with a pet is the pet will
follow me into the corridor then I'll displace the pet to the other
side
of my while with a watchman I have to patiently herd him into the
corridor by restricting his random movements and depending on
patience and the odds.
Doug Freyburger
> Doug Freyburger wrote:
> >bli...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> Jove wrote:
>
> >> > Dig out wall of temple
> >> > - so you can throw at the altar from outside the temple.
> >> > - Stand outside the temple and kill the priest by throwing rocks.
>
> >> When I try this, the town guard becomes hostile.
>
> >I've killed the minetown priest on a number of occasions and I don't
> >recall the guard becoming hostile. There must be something I'm
> >doing different than the description.
>
> It happens in wizmode. I only tried it twice. There was a guard in
> the temple each time. Maybe only if there's a guard in sight.
One time I tried to prepare mine town by wiping out the watch one
by one in rooms where the rest could not see. I was carrying the
uncursed luckstone from mines end. I didn't think about losing one
point of luck per murder just about losing telepathy again and again.
Telepathy doesn't have a counter so I had two levels above with live
floating eyes to handle that.
The problem is as my luck dropped and dropped and never
drifted back up because of the luckstone I hit less and less often.
Eventually a crowd of wargs appeared and I retreated into the
wrong room. Without stairs to escape the best I could do was
stand behind the door and miss and miss and miss. Eventually
I tried to flee by stepping into the door and the rest of the wargs
got to me. YASD. Lesson to be learned from that game -
Before killing friendly humans read up on the price paid by your
alignment. Note any action that reduces luck and make certain
luck is back to zero before doing anything else that takes luck.
This can include the counter-intuitive tactic of putting an uncursed
luckstone in the bag to allow bad luck to drift away.
ThomasCpp
You could just zap a wand of death (of fire) at the priest from outside
the room (if inside the room the reflection could cause a dywypi) if
the guard gets hostile you could zap him too.
Shawn Moore
> If:
> [ways to use/lose scrolls of earth]
>
> To me that means possible, maybe probable if the player works at it.
> That's not guaranteed nearly as much as rocks and a digging implement.
> And there are better uses for scrolls of earth.
>
> >and has the advantage of not having to kill the priest.
>
> Not sure that follows:
> - Killing the priest is a lot easier.
> - Resources are 100% guaranteed.
> - A live hostile priest is a DYWYPI waiting to happen.
The ?oE method has some huge advantages:
* no murder penalty
* doesn't anger the watch (which happened when I wiztested
rock-throwing)
* the priest/ess will heal so it could take many many rocks
There's also the possible risk of team ant summoning (I don't know if
the priest will target the spell at you if you're outside the temple).
That said, I've used the ?oE method only using pits instead of
boulders, because I wanted the team ant summoning effect. It gets
boring but it's a good way to get lots of corpses for the guy upstairs.
Shawn M Moore
Jove
>Jove wrote:
>> If:
>> [ways to use/lose scrolls of earth]
>>
>> To me that means possible, maybe probable if the player works at it.
>> That's not guaranteed nearly as much as rocks and a digging implement.
>> And there are better uses for scrolls of earth.
>>
>> >and has the advantage of not having to kill the priest.
>>
>> Not sure that follows:
>> - Killing the priest is a lot easier.
>> - Resources are 100% guaranteed.
>> - A live hostile priest is a DYWYPI waiting to happen.
>
>The ?oE method has some huge advantages:
> * no murder penalty
Doesn't apply to chaotics, but still a good point.
> * doesn't anger the watch (which happened when I wiztested
>rock-throwing)
That happened in my wizmode test as well.
> * the priest/ess will heal so it could take many many rocks
Definitely, but rocks do tend to accumulate. Requires a little more
preparation, but rocking the priest to death depends on preparation
anyway.
>
>There's also the possible risk of team ant summoning (I don't know if
>the priest will target the spell at you if you're outside the temple).
>
>That said, I've used the ?oE method only using pits instead of
>boulders, because I wanted the team ant summoning effect. It gets
>boring but it's a good way to get lots of corpses for the guy upstairs.
All good points.
>
>Shawn M Moore
Yo, Shawn. I want to ask a favor. Earlier this year I watched
someone on NAO die to genocidal confusion on the Plane of Air.
(Possibly the Plane of Fire).
I'd like to add a link to the ttyrec from my ttyrec page:
<http://www.mindspring.com/~jove/Ttyrecs.htm>
Is the NAO log file publicly available?
Just a list of players dying to genocide in the endgame from the log
file would be fine. I can check the ttyrec files myself.
Actually, the ability to search the log file by death type and
location would make NAO's ttyrecs a lot more useful. People could use
the player name and time of death to find the appropriate ttyrec.
(Possibly automatically return a link to the ttyrec as well?)
E.g. Watching players die on the Plane of Earth, or in the Sanctum
could be interesting. Or those that died to Vlad. Even watching some
game endings with some of the more interesting death messages.
Justin Hiltscher
> E.g. Watching players die on the Plane of Earth, or in the Sanctum
> could be interesting. Or those that died to Vlad. Even watching some
> game endings with some of the more interesting death messages.
>
>
Someone died to *Vlad*? Seriously?! I'd love to see that ttyrec
myself, or just a summary as to what someone has to do to get killed by
Vlad! Strip naked after praying at the wrong time, and wield a piece of
fruit?
Justin Hiltscher
--
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Grunt
> [...]
> Someone died to *Vlad*? Seriously?! I'd love to see that ttyrec
> myself, or just a summary as to what someone has to do to get killed by
> Vlad! Strip naked after praying at the wrong time, and wield a piece of
> fruit?
NAO has recently seen Vlad die to (at various points) a candy bar, a
thoroughly rusty tin opener, and even a scroll of mail. I don't think
having a fruit as a weapon will present a huge obstacle. :)
Martin Read
>NAO has recently seen Vlad die to (at various points) a candy bar, a
>thoroughly rusty tin opener, and even a scroll of mail.
I always say Vlad is Wet And A Weed, but killing him with a scroll of
mail is worthy of a few million points for sheer "Vlad, you *suck*!"
value :)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "the lights shine clear through the sodium haze the night draws near
\/ and the daylight fades" -- Sisters of Mercy, "Lights"
Richard Bos
Indeed. Those banana fiends can be pretty agressive, you know.
Richard
cdi
Not too long ago, I took down Vlad (and all the named demons I ran into
except Juiblex) with a wand of wishing.
-cdi
Martin Read
>Grunt wrote:
>> NAO has recently seen Vlad die to (at various points) a candy bar, a
>> thoroughly rusty tin opener, and even a scroll of mail. I don't think
>> having a fruit as a weapon will present a huge obstacle. :)
>
>Not too long ago, I took down Vlad (and all the named demons I ran into
>except Juiblex) with a wand of wishing.
Only impressive if wands of wishing weren't silver :)
il...@rcn.com
> penalty, and a -11 alignment penalty. And throwing rocks from
> outside is a highly unreliable way of killing priests anyway
> (angry guards, lots of time spent collecting rocks, summon
> insects spell from the priest).
You take alignment penalty for killing a CONTRA-ALIGNED priest?? That
makes no sense.
Also, don't you lose Luck as soon as you ANGER the priest (or any
peaceful monster)? Which will happen when you convert the altar
regardless of whether you kill him afterward?
cdi
Martin Read wrote:
> "cdi" <cdinc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Grunt wrote:
> >> NAO has recently seen Vlad die to (at various points) a candy bar, a
> >> thoroughly rusty tin opener, and even a scroll of mail. I don't think
> >> having a fruit as a weapon will present a huge obstacle. :)
> >
> >Not too long ago, I took down Vlad (and all the named demons I ran into
> >except Juiblex) with a wand of wishing.
>
> Only impressive if wands of wishing weren't silver :)
Which it was. :(
Regardless, "You begin bashing monsters with your wand of wishing", is
still ridiculous and funny.
-cdi, who plans to kill Vlad by "throwing the book at him" one of these
days.
Ugly Newt
cdi got out a spraycan and scrawled the following:
Personally, I prefer to beat him to death with his own shoes. Wielded,
not worn, of course.
--
It's easy in your righteous quest to forget the golden rule
Your malice and your discontent will never see you through
Choose your battles carefully - is the fire all you can see?
Heal yourself before looking for enemies.