Is Nethack too easy? (spoilers)
ManaUser
topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
harder? Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's
no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
this newsgroup.
So anyway I was thinking about this, and the biggest thing that came to
mind was how easy it is to get a huge amount of hitpoints. That makes
everything but the first stage of the game a breeze. "Alchemy", combined
with the fact that a b!oFH is worth 8 max HP seems particularly unbalanced.
--
My email address: http://manauser.info/email.gif
Inlaw Biker
I think that since most people don't ascend their first character for a
period of years, Nethack is probably the most difficult computer game
ever conceived. If it's become too easy, well, that's what the
voluntary challenges are for. Just eliminating wishes and genocide
makes the game significantly more difficult.
Alchemy for hit points makes the later stages easier, but I have
ascended plenty of times without using alchemy for b!oFH. It's the
beginning stages that are the most difficult.
You can try all kinds of different tactics to make the game more
interesting. Personally I usually play Pacifist until my pet is around
exp level 9.
Greg
Xeno
ManaUser wrote:
<snip> about Nethack possibly being to easy.
>
> So anyway I was thinking about this, and the biggest thing that came to
> mind was how easy it is to get a huge amount of hitpoints. That makes
> everything but the first stage of the game a breeze. "Alchemy", combined
> with the fact that a b!oFH is worth 8 max HP seems particularly unbalanced.
Well I've always thought that the simplest way to solve this is to make
any 'diluted' healing potion NOT give you extra MaxHP. Since all
alchemised potions are diluted this should stop the main abuse of
alchemy, at least for the healing potions. You would only get useful
powerful healing potions not the extra MaxHP.
What do you all think?
ManaUser
I like it. It makes sense (well, as much as this kind of thing can) and
solves the problem (if you believe there is one) quite nicely.
Xeno
> Xeno wrote:
> > ManaUser wrote:
> >
> > <snip> about Nethack possibly being to easy.
> >
> >
<snip> about diluted (or alchemised) healing potions not giving maxHP
gains
> >
> > What do you all think?
>
> I like it. It makes sense (well, as much as this kind of thing can) and
> solves the problem (if you believe there is one) quite nicely.
>
Glad you like the idea. It has been buzzing around in my head for a
while.
Well since it is pretty simple to do here is a 'diff' for 3.4.3 for
anybody interested.
Don't forget to fix the line wraps (i.e. any no -,+,@ or ' ' at the
start of a line not in the 'header'), should just be a few.
O.K it does make the post a bit long, but hey!
!!!!!!!!!!!
diff -Naur nethack-3.4.3/src/potion.c nethack-diluted/src/potion.c
--- nethack-3.4.3/src/potion.c Mon Jan 23 21:52:28 2006
+++ nethack-diluted/src/potion.c Mon Jan 23 21:52:14 2006
@@ -784,16 +784,16 @@
*/
u.uexp = rndexp(TRUE);
break;
- case POT_HEALING:
+ case POT_HEALING: /* All healing potions now don't increase MaxHP if
diluted */
You_feel("better.");
healup(d(6 + 2 * bcsign(otmp), 4),
- !otmp->cursed ? 1 : 0, !!otmp->blessed, !otmp->cursed);
+ !otmp->cursed ? 1 : 0, (!!otmp->blessed)*(!otmp->odiluted),
!otmp->cursed);
exercise(A_CON, TRUE);
break;
case POT_EXTRA_HEALING:
You_feel("much better.");
healup(d(6 + 2 * bcsign(otmp), 8),
- otmp->blessed ? 5 : !otmp->cursed ? 2 : 0,
+ (otmp->blessed ? 5 : !otmp->cursed ? 2 :
0)*(!otmp->odiluted),
!otmp->cursed, TRUE);
(void) make_hallucinated(0L,TRUE,0L);
exercise(A_CON, TRUE);
@@ -801,7 +801,7 @@
break;
case POT_FULL_HEALING:
You_feel("completely healed.");
- healup(400, 4+4*bcsign(otmp), !otmp->cursed, TRUE);
+ healup(400, (4+4*bcsign(otmp))*(!otmp->odiluted), !otmp->cursed,
TRUE);
/* Restore one lost level if blessed */
if (otmp->blessed && u.ulevel < u.ulevelmax) {
/* when multiple levels have been lost, drinking
!!!!!!!!!!!
and why not one for Slashem aswell!! ;-)
!!!!!!!!!!!
diff -Naur slashem-0.0.7E7F2/src/potion.c slashem-diluted/src/potion.c
--- slashem-0.0.7E7F2/src/potion.c Sun Dec 4 14:58:28 2005
+++ slashem-diluted/src/potion.c Mon Jan 23 21:23:04 2006
@@ -916,16 +916,16 @@
*/
u.uexp = rndexp(TRUE);
break;
- case POT_HEALING:
+ case POT_HEALING: /* All healing potions now don't increase MaxHP if
diluted */
You_feel("better.");
healup(d(5,6) + 5 * bcsign(otmp),
- !otmp->cursed ? 1 : 0, 1+1*!!otmp->blessed, !otmp->cursed);
+ !otmp->cursed ? 1 : 0,
(1+1*!!otmp->blessed)*(!otmp->odiluted), !otmp->cursed);
exercise(A_CON, TRUE);
break;
case POT_EXTRA_HEALING:
You_feel("much better.");
healup(d(6,8) + 5 * bcsign(otmp),
- otmp->blessed ? 5 : !otmp->cursed ? 2 : 0,
+ (otmp->blessed ? 5 : !otmp->cursed ? 2 :
0)*(!otmp->odiluted),
!otmp->cursed, TRUE);
(void) make_hallucinated(0L,TRUE,0L);
exercise(A_CON, TRUE);
@@ -933,7 +933,7 @@
break;
case POT_FULL_HEALING:
You_feel("completely healed.");
- healup(400, 4+4*bcsign(otmp), !otmp->cursed, TRUE);
+ healup(400, (4+4*bcsign(otmp))*(!otmp->odiluted), !otmp->cursed,
TRUE);
/* Restore one lost level if blessed */
if (otmp->blessed && u.ulevel < u.ulevelmax) {
/* when multiple levels have been lost, drinking
!!!!!!!!!!!
Gregory Weston
wrote:
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
> harder? Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's
> no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
> this newsgroup.
I'd say that's the crux of it. Once you know how to do it, I'd assume
you know how to do it. (I have to assume, never having actually
ascended.) Throwing arbitrary road blocks in the way for the sake of
making it harder sounds like it would be more frustrating than anything
else.
G
--
"Congurutulation!!!" - The subject line on some spam I received last night.
I have no idea what it means, but it's such a cool "word" (by which I mean
pronouncable sequence of letters) regardless.
L
* Hell-only monsters did more melee damage
* Intrinsic resistances were less powerful than extrinsic resistances
(thus adding more variety to gameplay)
* Magic cancellation was less powerful
That'd make Gehennom more exciting, don't you think?
Martin Read
>Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
>topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
>detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
>harder?
Things I would do:
There would be monsters that a 30th level saber expert with maxed luck,
maxed stats, and the blessed +7 Grayswandir (total to-hit bonus under
the current regime considerably in excess of +50) does not have a 100%
chance of hitting. The ideal way to do this would be to refactor the
to-hit mechanics from the ground up.
Damage reduction due to negative armour class would be capped at a
certain percentage of the attack's rolled damage.
Damage reduction due to negative armour class would apply to the monsters
as well as the player.
Getting a full set of intrinsic resistances would be harder. I rather
like the suggestion that one should not be able to have intrinsic fire
and cold resistance simultaneously - if you want both at once, then you
have to either get one of them from your equipment, or get crowned.
Sufficient sacrifices (where "sufficient" would depend on your level
and so forth) would get you crowned without praying. In addition to
the increased prayer timeout, crowned characters would cease to receive
any service except trouble-fixing from their god - no artifacts from
sacrifice and no spellbooks or golden glows from prayer.
(This is unsatisfactory, but I lack the effort to design a better
proposal right now, since it would involve increasing the
differentiation between gods.)
Player spells' maximum damage would be toned down according to the level
of the spell. Magic missile would no longer be able to do 15d6 damage,
but would instead hit a cap at (for example) 7d6.
Fire, cold, shock, and acid resistance should reduce incoming damage
of that type by some amount (probably a percentage of the total damage)
rather than negating it completely. The behaviour of disintegration
resistance would be unchanged.
Reflection would have no effect on certain breath weapons - fire, cold,
sleep, acid, and poison gas. Disintegration, lightning, and magic
missile would continue to be reflected.
The player's maximum hit points would not be able to escalate without
meaningful limit; the current hard cap for nurse dancing (25 hp/level)
would be extended to cover all sources of hit point gain, and it would
be used as an asymptotic limit.
Duplicated monsters (water-spawned gremlins, split puddings, etc) would
never yield a death drop even if subsequently polymorphed, etc. The
first such corpse you offered would have a sacrifice value of zero (and
yield a message expressing your deity's disappointment); subsequent
such offerings would have actively negative consequences.
I admit to rather liking the "diluted potions shouldn't give bonus max
HP" proposal, so I'd probably run with that one too. Also, there would
be constraints on how many potions you can alchemise with a single dip.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\_\/_/ http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/dungeonbash/
\ / "tempted white eyes blinded by the night hollow like the towers from the
\/ inside laura's a machine she's burning insane" fields of the nephilim
Ian-Keith
imposible<snip>
It's a good thing I don't want the game any harder. This would just be
cruel. It'd be like Slash'em, with less stuff, and more dying. So...
"'Em".
The rest of you folk can have all these fun, pretty things. I'll stick
with vanilla 3.4.3 until I can get a character where class is not equal
to valkyrie to get past minetown.
Which'll never happen.
Gary Olson
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
> harder? Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's
> no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
> this newsgroup.
>
many here in this newsgroup are "in the top section of the curve" for
Nethack skill -- Marvin is the 5 sigma guy. Therefore, many of you think
the game easy.
Let's consider my current game in terms of easy. The magician has
completed the entire dungeon except for the WoY tower. The RNG has been
extremely stingy: no scrolls of genocide, no AoLS, only one pair of
magical boots found on Orcus level(speed), no magical cloaks beyond
starting equipment, no magical gloves, no magical helmets, one wand of
death, one magic marker, no Ludios, etc.
I have just spent 40,000 turns over 6 weeks doing a sacfest in order to
obtain the necessities for ascension. I have a chest full of junk,
useless scrolls, artifact weapons I will never use, and a rainbow of
dragon scales except the coveted scales. Some may say this is an easy
method for increasing stats and equipment. The pure tediousness is a
great method for causing carelessness. If you think tedium is easy, by
all means enjoy yourself.
This is just one example which shows even a thoroughly spoiled player
can have a difficult time ascending. No, I don't think the game is too
easy. The progression from early game attempting to survive, middle game
maintaining composure during incredible tedium, end game rush to ascend
without forgetting a key piece of information (think Vorpal) provides
enough basic difficulty.
I don't think we should focus on increasing the difficulty of Nethack
thru direct methods. By increasing the depth and complexity of the game
(see discussion on shallow water YANI), we can create a seemingly more
difficult game by creating complex distractions.
L
Personally, I prefer simply making intrinsic resistances less powerful.
(I'm working on a patch in this vein.)
>There would be monsters that a 30th level saber expert with maxed luck,
>maxed stats, and the blessed +7 Grayswandir (total to-hit bonus under
>the current regime considerably in excess of +50) does not have a 100%
>chance of hitting. The ideal way to do this would be to refactor the
>to-hit mechanics from the ground up.
Or the monster in question could have -20 AC (which I think would
promote some... interesting strategies for less powerful players.)
>Reflection would have no effect on certain breath weapons - fire, cold,
>sleep, acid, and poison gas. Disintegration, lightning, and magic
>missile would continue to be reflected.
I disagree. Reflection is defined as a magic-based protective field
that 'bounces" elemental rays. It isn't even necessarily light-based
(amulets of reflection do not, for example, have tiny mirrors embedded
in them.) I think it should reflect everything _except_ disintegration
(because otherwise Reflection ends up being synonymous with
disintegration resistance. At least, until Mr. Webb's Disintegrator
monster gets added to the game.)
Here's a YANI: a matter/enchantment spell that grants Reflection with a
timeout. And, while we're at it, one that grants Magic Resistance with
a timeout.
ManaUser
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
> harder?
I was also going to suggest capping prayer protection the same as
donation protection (not necessarily combined), but getting a super low
AC that way is undeniably a lot of work, so it may be a case for the "If
you don't like it, don't /do/ it" philosophy.
paul...@yahoo.com
ManaUser wrote:
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> detail. Do you agree?
I've never ascended so I find the current Nethack quite challenging. I
beat Rogue years ago but never Nethack. Of course, I've gone years
between Nethack attempts and I usually die because I do something
stupid or hit the wrong key (last game I died running into a floating
eye moving my stash from Minetown to the dungeon).
I'd eliminate as much "cheese" as possible:
1. cap the AC gain from donations/prayer
2. cap HP gain (as you suggested)
3. Limit Elbereth usage somewhat - your god has a chance of getting
angry with you every time you enscribe her name ("thou wouldst have
other gods before me?")
4. Limit pudding farming by the evolution idea - they become more
powerful the more of them you kill. This doesn't eliminate farming -
just makes it harder.
Little White Mouse
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another topic,
> and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more detail.
> Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be harder?
> Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's no question
> that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or this newsgroup.
>
Play Slash'em unspoiled.
My *god* I haven't survived long at all! I finally have someone past
minetown, past whatever the other town is, with 3 pets, a magic whistle,
and a wand of Temporary Polymorph (whatever it is...) I'm hoping for a
Bag of Holding in Sokoban...and I'd like to survive Sokoban, as well :)
It's a little harder, because the monsters don't have useful information
with /...but we do what we can.
Anyway, leave Nethack as hard as it is. If you want 24894 more rules,
play slashem. And die.
--LWM
Christian Bressler
: ManaUser wrote:
:> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
:> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
:> detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
:> harder? Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's
:> no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
:> this newsgroup.
: Like all games, Nethack is a skill -- spoiled or not. I would expect
: many here in this newsgroup are "in the top section of the curve" for
: Nethack skill -- Marvin is the 5 sigma guy. Therefore, many of you think
: the game easy.
<grin>
Hmm, as far as I can see, the terrain is plain flat, no bell curve in
seight.
</grin>
: Let's consider my current game in terms of easy. The magician has
: completed the entire dungeon except for the WoY tower. The RNG has been
: extremely stingy: no scrolls of genocide, no AoLS, only one pair of
: magical boots found on Orcus level(speed), no magical cloaks beyond
: starting equipment, no magical gloves, no magical helmets, one wand of
: death, one magic marker, no Ludios, etc.
: I have just spent 40,000 turns over 6 weeks doing a sacfest in order to
: obtain the necessities for ascension. I have a chest full of junk,
: useless scrolls, artifact weapons I will never use, and a rainbow of
: dragon scales except the coveted scales. Some may say this is an easy
: method for increasing stats and equipment. The pure tediousness is a
: great method for causing carelessness. If you think tedium is easy, by
: all means enjoy yourself.
Hmm, speed, MR, a wand of death, a (MM, vairous dragon scales ...
If you are not foodless that means all intrinsics.
There is also the guaranteed /WoW.
What are you looking for?
If you lack reflection and fear disintegration wear blackDSM and protect
all your fragile stuff in a bag.
Avoiding bee-lines should save your loot most of the time.
: This is just one example which shows even a thoroughly spoiled player
: can have a difficult time ascending. No, I don't think the game is too
: easy. The progression from early game attempting to survive, middle game
: maintaining composure during incredible tedium, end game rush to ascend
: without forgetting a key piece of information (think Vorpal) provides
: enough basic difficulty.
I second that.
Marvin
aka mrivan on NAO
L
> obtain the necessities for ascension.
Ideally, the so-called "necessary items for ascension" wouldn't be so
narrow a subset of all items.
There ought to be even more ways to obtain the important attributes.
Would my aforementioned suggestion about Reflection or Magic Resistance
spells be useful, perhaps? (Do many people eschew speed boots for the
haste self spell?)
I, and a few others, think magic resistance is too general an
attribute, covering too many scenarios. I reckon it should be split up
into mana/magic missile resistance (which gray DSM would confer), spell
resistance, and death resistance. While spell resistance would remain a
high priority, the others would be precautionary measures (much like
acid resistance is now.)
To be fair though, death resistance's importance would have to be
reduced by dumping the monsters' Touch of Death spell (which is both
obnoxious and dumb). If that was done, ascending without death
resistance while using Reflection to stop death rays _could_ be
feasable.
Jove
>>I have just spent 40,000 turns over 6 weeks doing a sacfest in order to
>> obtain the necessities for ascension.
>
>Ideally, the so-called "necessary items for ascension" wouldn't be so
>narrow a subset of all items.
>
It isn't. Look at speed ascenders.
<snip>
--
All the best,
Jove
Jove
wrote:
>Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
>topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
>detail. Do you agree?
You seem to be confusing "can be won with much practice, dying,
spoiling, care, and patience" with "easy".
As I've posted before, what makes Nethack hard is the "house of
cards" aspect of not preserving saved games upon permanent
character death. One mistake and all your time and effort is for
naught. (Save scum and ascension is trivial.)
>If so are there particular parts that should be
>harder?
No. If I want the game to be harder for me it's trivial to
make it so. The DevTeam has kindly included conducts to permit
high level players to tune game difficulty to their own level of
play.
>Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled.
Then the solution is to try conducts, or more difficult roles,
or never consult a spoiler again, or play Slash'Em. That way you
can tune the difficulty level to your satisfaction without
stomping even harder on new players.
>There's
>no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
>this newsgroup.
You just answered your own question.
If you want a new challenge, instead of tuning the base
difficulty level of Nethack to *your* current level of play, try
playing Slash'Em.
From:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/93c178c839a2911a?dmode=source&hl=en>
From: Rob Ellwood <rob.ellw...@home.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:04:24 GMT
"Also, the Dev Teams seem to be getting their player
feedback from the newsgroups instead of unspoiled players.
This means that difficulty levels escalate to where even an
expert, heavily spoiled player is challenged."
"Commercial games want you to win.
NetHack doesn't care if you win or lose.
Slash'em wants you DEAD."
That was four and a half years ago.
>
>So anyway I was thinking about this, and the biggest thing that came to
>mind was how easy it is to get a huge amount of hitpoints. That makes
>everything but the first stage of the game a breeze. "Alchemy", combined
>with the fact that a b!oFH is worth 8 max HP seems particularly unbalanced.
You seem to be confusing "huge amount of hit points" with
"insta-win."
For the difference, see:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/69bf6acc0fdfe3ae?dmode=source&hl=en>
Or any thread with "YASD" or "YAAD" in the subject.
And there are other ways to get huge amounts of hit points:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/707e7cd63e934089?dmode=source&hl=en>
I hadn't quaffed a single healing potion of any kind in that
game. (I suspect the same is true for Topi in his game in that
thread.)
I've actually found that about 110 max hit points is enough.
When my hit points get below 100, everything to right of hit
points in the status line shifts, drawing my attention to it.
I don't generally try to specifically increase my hit points,
unless I get a positively enchanted ring of gain constitution.
My hit point gains are generally a side effect of activities
performed with other goals in mind.
For yourself, you could just limit the amount of hit points
you'll let yourself get in a game. (Remember that the Orb of
Fate effectively doubles your hit points.) That way Nethack
won't
be locked into a hit point limit that probably won't be
appropriate for all players/roles.
So what if it's not an "official" DevTeam conduct. Conducts
kept aren't recorded in the score file anyway.
The best way I can think of to put the challenge back into the
game while preserving the spirit of Nethack is to try for speed
ascensions. (Scoring YANI: for every turn under your previous
quickest ascension, double your score.)
Speed ascensions seem to mean using what you find and playing
carefully. No more "perfect" Ascension Kits.
And if you want a real challenge, try zen, or foodless,
atheist, and polyselfless.
So if you want the game more difficult for yourself, the
possibilities are nearly endless, without changing Nethack
itself at all.
David Damerell
>I think that since most people don't ascend their first character for a
>period of years, Nethack is probably the most difficult computer game
>ever conceived.
You've never played Crawl, have you? :-)
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Gloucesterday, January.
David Damerell
>ManaUser wrote:
>>So anyway I was thinking about this, and the biggest thing that came to
>>mind was how easy it is to get a huge amount of hitpoints. That makes
>>everything but the first stage of the game a breeze. "Alchemy", combined
>>with the fact that a b!oFH is worth 8 max HP seems particularly unbalanced.
>Well I've always thought that the simplest way to solve this is to make
>any 'diluted' healing potion NOT give you extra MaxHP.
A more general solution is necessary; it should not be possible to
increase character attributes without limit. For example, for MaxHP, if
your MHP exceeds a certain multiple of your level, gains in MHP should
have a reduced effect, with a hard cap at some point. Nurse dancing is
already so implemented.
With this in place, the effect of alchemy would necessarily be limited
(although I'd favour halving the effect of diluted potions).
This doesn't affect the difficulty of the game for unspoiled players at
all.
David Damerell
Quoting Martin Read <mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
>There would be monsters that a 30th level saber expert with maxed luck,
>maxed stats, and the blessed +7 Grayswandir (total to-hit bonus under
>the current regime considerably in excess of +50) does not have a 100%
>chance of hitting. The ideal way to do this would be to refactor the
>to-hit mechanics from the ground up.
While reducing the total scale of to-hit bonuses is certainly a useful
effect, I don't really think you can sensibly avoid a variation of more
than 20 at the high end, and I don't much fancy a complete reworking of
the system.
>Damage reduction due to negative armour class would be capped at a
>certain percentage of the attack's rolled damage.
>Damage reduction due to negative armour class would apply to the monsters
>as well as the player.
This only applies if monsters can gain significant negative AC; at the
moment they really don't have it. Giving high-level monsters *large* AC
improvements would also have to be part of any such changes - for example
I proposed a flat extra point per hit die with the base AC of some
lowlevel monsters adjusted to put them back where they started.
I propose the following; negative AC works for both to-hit and damage
adjustments for both players and monsters; player to-hit bonuses are cut
back somewhat, but players still hit most or all of the time; excess
to-hit offsets damage reduction; rework monster attacks to do sensibly
large amounts of damage at high levels; cap hitpoint gains.
We could also do with reworking magic resistance - I've heard your spiel
about how Crawl has no all-or-nothing resistances and I agree. Perhaps
existing MR items could provide a large but not absolute resistance to MR
effects and all other magical armour provide a small modicum of
resistance, and no effect would be absolutely fatal. For example, a death
touch would do massive damage, but if you had a decent selection of magical
armour (but no MR item) and a boatload of HP you'd survive. You'd still be
in trouble, having had most of your HP blown off in one go.
David Damerell
>Let's consider my current game in terms of easy. The magician has
>completed the entire dungeon except for the WoY tower. The RNG has been
>extremely stingy: no scrolls of genocide, no AoLS, only one pair of
>magical boots found on Orcus level(speed), no magical cloaks beyond
>starting equipment, no magical gloves, no magical helmets, one wand of
>death, one magic marker, no Ludios, etc.
It sounds to me that with that and the Castle wand you have more than
enough stuff to make a pretty good go of it.
David Damerell
[Quoting Rob Ellwood]
>"Also, the Dev Teams seem to be getting their player
>feedback from the newsgroups instead of unspoiled players.
>This means that difficulty levels escalate to where even an
>expert, heavily spoiled player is challenged."
I don't think this is really the case. I first ascended in 3.1.3; there
was no alchemy then, no-one had invented pudding farming, I spurned
Elbereth and polypiling and the then-current cheap techniques like
paralysing Rodney.
The game was tough and challenging without those techniques, but obviously
winnable by someone who was neither expert nor heavily spoiled, and I
think that is still true now.
The problem we have today is that a number of things make the game be not
challenging at all. Alchemy, for example, can grant so many hitpoints that
you cannot die by taking physical damage. Eliminating that effect doesn't
make the game harder for an inexpert lightly spoiled player; they may
increase their HP a bit with potions, but they'll never do the mass
production that would run you up against a hard cap on alchemy. On the
contrary; once HP gains are toned down, air elementals will need toned
down - currently, they're in a silly arms race (silly because the HP side
of the race is unlimited in effect). That's good news for the less expert
player because right now they meet the air elementals but don't get the
massive hitpoints.
Roy L. Fuchs
<mpr...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Gave us:
>alchemise
Yep.... one sees it all here... :-]
Roy L. Fuchs
<gas...@cs.tu-berlin.de> Gave us:
>bee-lines
I have never understood this colloquialism.
Bees never fly in a straight line, so "making a bee-line" for
something would hardly describe a "straight shot".
Funny. None shall pass!
Gary Olson
> Quoting Gary Olson <gary...@pobox.NOSPAM.com>:
>
>>Let's consider my current game in terms of easy. The magician has
>>completed the entire dungeon except for the WoY tower. The RNG has been
>>extremely stingy: no scrolls of genocide, no AoLS, only one pair of
>>magical boots found on Orcus level(speed), no magical cloaks beyond
>>starting equipment, no magical gloves, no magical helmets, one wand of
>>death, one magic marker, no Ludios, etc.
>
> It sounds to me that with that and the Castle wand you have more than
> enough stuff to make a pretty good go of it.
I need a spellbook of Finger of Death. I have yet to ascend a wizard;
the Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a
method to kill him quickly. Anhur has deemed it necessary to provide a
spellbook of Detect Unseen when I was crowned. I guess my god is not
omniscient to see the blessed orb I have in the chest called StashIII.
L
That's completely impossible. If you were chosen as the Glory of
Arioch, you would have recieved either finger of death or Stormbringer
- nothing else.
Little White Mouse
> I need a spellbook of Finger of Death. I have yet to ascend a wizard; the
> Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a method to
> kill him quickly.
Well, it may not be quick...but beating him to death with the +2 Magicbane
is always an option :)
I've found a couple of ways to deal with him as a W - especially since I
often miss with the finger!
1. !oParalysis. Ok, that's not just a wizard, but still - gives enough
time to bring Magicbane to bear <G>
2. Magic Missle + walls + Reflection. Rodney just doesn't last long...
And if yer really desperate, you can always try to write one - remember,
you're a wizard, so you have a good chance of just writing a spellbook!
HTH,
LWM
Jove
<little...@verizon.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:20:18 -0600, Gary Olson wrote:
>> I need a spellbook of Finger of Death. I have yet to ascend a wizard; the
>> Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a method to
>> kill him quickly.
>
>Well, it may not be quick...but beating him to death with the +2 Magicbane
>is always an option :)
Enchant Magicbane to +6/7. That will give 4 more points of
damage per hit than +2. (You don't want the Wizard of Yendor
scared/stunned/confused/canceled. You want Rodney *dead*.)
If Magicbane goes to +6, consider cursing it and engraving
a single letter with it. That will take Magicbane back to
+5 so you can try again for +7. (Using a blessed scroll
of enchant weapon on Magicbane will uncurse it for you.)
A stack of highly enchanted daggers can do a lot of damage
when thrown by an Expert.
>
>I've found a couple of ways to deal with him as a W - especially since I
>often miss with the finger!
I don't recall ever missing Rodney with the finger of death.
>
>1. !oParalysis. Ok, that's not just a wizard, but still - gives enough
>time to bring Magicbane to bear <G>
If you have a ring of free action, wield a single !oPara. This
will paralyze whatever you hit so you can perform surgery with
Magicbane.
>2. Magic Missle + walls + Reflection. Rodney just doesn't last long...
Especially if you're at XL 30: Averages 48 pts of damage per
hit. (NB: Being at XL 30 also greatly increases your chances of
getting an unknown spellbook when praying.)
>
>And if yer really desperate, you can always try to write one - remember,
>you're a wizard, so you have a good chance of just writing a spellbook!
>
Excellent chance, if you've maximized your luck. Generally at
least one of my wishes is for a magic marker to write critical
spellbooks.
Or poly spare spellbooks.
--
Nethack IS easy, if you play it the right way.
Try killing things from a distance.
All the best,
Jove
Gary Olson
praying). Anhur commented on this and gave the weapon another +.
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Quoting Gary Olson <gary...@pobox.NOSPAM.com>:
>>>Let's consider my current game in terms of easy. The magician has
>>>completed the entire dungeon except for the WoY tower. The RNG has been
>>>extremely stingy:
>>enough stuff to make a pretty good go of it.
>I need a spellbook of Finger of Death.
Well, no, you don't; but you have the Castle wand, you can wish for one.
>I have yet to ascend a wizard;
>the Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a
>method to kill him quickly.
One of the many artifact weapons you say you have?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Leicesterday, January.
Andreas Dorn
> ManaUser wrote:
>
>>Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
>>topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
>>detail. Do you agree?
In general Nethack is as difficult as I want it to be, but surely some
"abuses" could be removed.
> I'd eliminate as much "cheese" as possible:
>
> 1. cap the AC gain from donations/prayer
I second that.
> 2. cap HP gain (as you suggested)
Instead of tuning alchemy down I think it would be more useful to cut
down the cheap ways to get items. (see 4)
> 3. Limit Elbereth usage somewhat - your god has a chance of getting
> angry with you every time you enscribe her name ("thou wouldst have
> other gods before me?")
Yes, Elbereth is surely overpowered. Maybe only letters written with
fire or blood should work (for a limited number of turns). Or at least
it should noticabely use up some resources (protection/luck/..?!?).
> 4. Limit pudding farming by the evolution idea - they become more
> powerful the more of them you kill. This doesn't eliminate farming -
> just makes it harder.
I think in Adom this idea is called the uber-jackal bug. And it really
sucks. But stopping unlimited item/HP/Protection-generation is surely a
good idea and it could be done in various ways...
--
Andreas
Martin Read
>I think in Adom this idea is called the uber-jackal bug. And it really
>sucks. But stopping unlimited item/HP/Protection-generation is surely a
>good idea and it could be done in various ways...
The trivial: Change things so that clones (split puddings, water-spawned
gremlins, etc.) have no death drop, award no XP, and leave no corpse.
Even if polymorphed subsequent to cloning.
Hey presto. No nutrition, no sacrifice value, no XP, no treasure.
Eric
> paul...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> 4. Limit pudding farming by the evolution idea - they become more
>> powerful the more of them you kill. This doesn't eliminate farming -
>> just makes it harder.
>
> I think in Adom this idea is called the uber-jackal bug. And it really
> sucks. But stopping unlimited item/HP/Protection-generation is surely a
> good idea and it could be done in various ways...
There is a start along these lines implemented at
http://www.brainshell.org/patches/nethack/nofarming.diff
(Already submitted to the Nethack Patch Database.)
Instead of making the puddings stronger, it limits how often they can be
divided, by reducing their max HP like gremlins do now. Note that this
actually makes the game *easier* for the unspoiled player, because the
extra puddings will be easier to kill; the spoiled player can still
benefit from careful farming, but not nearly as much.
- Eric
L
>http://www.brainshell.org/patches/nethack/nofarming.diff
>(Already submitted to the Nethack Patch Database.)
I have a problem with this patch's attribution of puddings as
"lifeless". D&D (i.e the pudding's origin mythos) says that "Puddings
are voracious, puddinglike monsters composed of groups of cell colonies
that scavenge and hunt for food." Hence, there is no magic involved in
their animation - they're closer to slime molds than to "goo golems."
David Justiss
news:kkaBf.52$772...@fe05.lga
> Someone said they thought the game was curently too easy in another
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> detail. Do you agree? If so are there particular parts that should be
> harder? Obviously I'm talking about after you've been spoiled. There's
> no question that it's plenty hard if you've never read any spoilers or
> this newsgroup.
>
I'd hate to put this as my message but I apparently posted into the
wrong thread:
Please see my messge under YANI: shallow water
(I even forgot to change the subject line.)
Asher
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
VS
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:20:18 -0600, Gary Olson wrote:
>> I need a spellbook of Finger of Death. I have yet to ascend a wizard; the
>> Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a method to
>> kill him quickly.
>
> Well, it may not be quick...but beating him to death with the +2 Magicbane
> is always an option :)
*Sigh*
You're absolutely right. It isn't quick, but it does the job. My first
ascended wizard resorted to just such skewering of Rodney out of
necessity. It takes a while, but is, ahem, character building. ;-)
> And if yer really desperate, you can always try to write one - remember,
> you're a wizard, so you have a good chance of just writing a spellbook!
If you can remember where your stash of MM and blank books is.
Saso
John Campbell
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:56:29 GMT, Little White Mouse
> <little...@verizon.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 20:20:18 -0600, Gary Olson wrote:
>>
>>>I need a spellbook of Finger of Death. I have yet to ascend a wizard; the
>>>Wizard of Yendor always gets me on the final dash for lack of a method to
>>>kill him quickly.
>>
>>Well, it may not be quick...but beating him to death with the +2 Magicbane
>>is always an option :)
>
>
> Enchant Magicbane to +6/7. That will give 4 more points of
> damage per hit than +2. (You don't want the Wizard of Yendor
> scared/stunned/confused/canceled. You want Rodney *dead*.)
Or, better, use a real weapon and save Magicbane for absorbing
curses. There isn't any law that says that wizards *have* to wield
Magicbane. Mine ascended with the +7 Fire Brand in hand.
--
John Campbell
jcam...@lynn.ci-n.com
Philipp Lucas
> Change things so that clones (split puddings, water-spawned gremlins,
> etc.) have no death drop, award no XP, and leave no corpse.
I would like to see the mysterious creation of objects upon a monster's
death to be taken out completely, not just for clones.
--
Philipp Lucas
phl...@online-club.de
L
>death to be taken out completely, not just for clones.
Don't mind if I do!
Martin Read
If you can't, why did you bother stashing them?
Alternatively, #name something with a reference to where they are.
Eric
Valid concern; fortunately, "lifelessness" never shows up in the game
itself, only in interaction with the turn undead wand and spell. If you
think of a better reason for puddings to resist turning, please share.
On the other hand, it might be better to store the pudding's stats with
its corpse, so turn undead will restore it to its original condition.
The lifeless bit is only there because the turn undead spell, as it is
currently implemented, breaks the whole point of the patch.
- Eric
Eric
Yikes! You missed the part where the monsters should get a bit more
random inventory on creation, to make up for the lack of new items.
- Eric
VS
> VS <V...@SauceForge.net> wrote:
>>Little White Mouse <little...@verizon.com> writes:
>>> And if yer really desperate, you can always try to write one - remember,
>>> you're a wizard, so you have a good chance of just writing a spellbook!
>>
>>If you can remember where your stash of MM and blank books is.
>
> If you can't, why did you bother stashing them?
Had this brilliant idea that in order to keep stashes safe from random
monsters I should store them in vaults that one has to teleport to is
better than burning the E-word.
A tango with an MMF and assorted other creatures summoned by arch-lich
later ...
> Alternatively, #name something with a reference to where they are.
Now you tell me. :-)
Anyway, that wizard lived to sacrifice AoY (sheer luck).
Saso
Link
Would it be better to change the game so that splitting a pudding
counts toward extinction? In this case, splitting a pudding would
count towards its "born counter". This way, extra puddings would not
be easier to kill. Also, it is unlikely (I think?) that an unspoiled
player would find 120 of a same pudding in a same game, so this change
would not affect them.
Eric
> Eric wrote:
>> http://www.brainshell.org/patches/nethack/nofarming.diff
>> (Already submitted to the Nethack Patch Database.)
>>
>> Instead of making the puddings stronger, it limits how often they can be
>> divided, by reducing their max HP like gremlins do now. Note that this
>> actually makes the game *easier* for the unspoiled player, because the
>> extra puddings will be easier to kill; the spoiled player can still
>> benefit from careful farming, but not nearly as much.
>
> counts toward extinction? In this case, splitting a pudding would
> count towards its "born counter". This way, extra puddings would not
> be easier to kill. Also, it is unlikely (I think?) that an unspoiled
> player would find 120 of a same pudding in a same game, so this change
> would not affect them.
I find it aesthetically unappealing to have puddings suddenly stop
splitting for no apparent reason. Reducing the max HP makes sense
logically, gives a perfectly reasonable limit to farming without
resorting to magic numbers, and doesn't arbitrarily change the
behavior of puddings elsewhere in the dungeon, previously spawned
or not.
Besides, I find it a good thing to decrease difficulty for the
unspoiled, particularly if I can increase it for the spoiled at
the same time without decreasing item interaction.
- Eric
L
>random inventory on creation, to make up for the lack of new items.
The compiler variable is in the /* difficulty */ category, isn't it? :
)
magicby...@yahoo.com
The game is still fun as crap, but I can understand people wanting a bigger challenge. There's now UNnethack and more Slash 'em stuff to give more challenges.
I'd like to see a more challenging sequel to Nethack. The thing about Un and 'Slash is that they don't feel like Nethack. They feel like a different game entirely. What I want is a sequel with all the same bells and whistles.
In my opinion, rather than changing all sorts of game mechanics, you should change the plot of the game itself: different towns and even a different goal, like destroying the amulet with several artifacts you must collect down three different dungeon branches. If you want to, you could forgo wishes entirely, and have ascension kit pieces be part of different quests, towns, and so forth.
You could have towns full of succubi, dragon halls with as many dragons as creatures on the astral planes, haunted houses, and so forth and so on.
Sure you could tweak things by making reflection less powerful, or by having more items that you need in order to duplicate MC3 Magic Resistance, and Reflection. Or you could make the only source of each a separate quest branch.
Nethack: OBLIVION
Nethack: Return of Rodney
Nethack: Balrog of the Gnomish Mines
Nethack: The Scroll of Omnipotence
Prometheus77
> topic, and I thought it might be interesting to to discuss that in more
> harder?
-Prometheus
Jonadab the Unsightly One
On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:58:41 AM UTC-5, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've now ascended multiple times in many different roles.
>
> The game is still fun as crap, but I can understand people
> wanting a bigger challenge.
One feature I'm in favor of is declared conducts -- you
declare at the beginning of the game, before creating your
character, which conducts you intend to keep. The game
tracks them, and at the end it tells you either that you
succeeded in keeping them all or that you failed to do
whatever, as the case may be. "You have failed as a
vegetarian, eating meat on 12 distinct occasions. You
you are a disgrace to demigods everywhere."
I'd also like to see a larger number of tracked conducts.
The whole question of making the late game more
interesting also seems relevant, but that's being
discussed in another thread.
> In my opinion, rather than changing all sorts of game
> mechanics, you should change the plot of the game
> itself: different towns and even a different goal,
> like destroying the amulet with several artifacts
> you must collect down three different dungeon branches.
> If you want to, you could forgo wishes entirely, and
> have ascension kit pieces be part of different quests,
> towns, and so forth.
have to enter different dungeons, obtain the "dungeon
item" that enables you to solve that dungeon's puzzles
and also unlocks new areas in the surface world, and
conquer a boss at the end of the dungeon to obtain
the next piece of your ascension kit? The last dungeon,
of course, would be the Dungeon of Doom, wherein lies
the entrance to Gehennom, where you must go to perform
the invocation ritual and seek the Amulet of Yendor...
> You could have towns full of succubi,
and nymphs and whatnot -- had occurred to me, as a
single-level optional branch off Gehennom.
> dragon halls
I actually implemented dragon halls for the Gehennom
Fun Patch, and was thinking about troll holes.
> haunted houses,
How would those be different from graveyards?
Hendrik Weimer
> I'd like to see a more challenging sequel to Nethack. The thing about
> Un and 'Slash is that they don't feel like Nethack. They feel like a
> different game entirely. What I want is a sequel with all the same
> bells and whistles.
>
> In my opinion, rather than changing all sorts of game mechanics, you
> should change the plot of the game itself: different towns and even a
> different goal, like destroying the amulet with several artifacts you
> must collect down three different dungeon branches.
challenging at all until you kill the wizard for the first time. When
you need more items to complete the invocation (or do some other
mandatory stuff), this will be similar to a longer version of Gehennom;
quite the opposite of what people would generally consider to be an
improvement.
One way I can think of making the game more challenging without changing
game mechanics is to make some unique monsters (named demons, the high
priest of Moloch) more playerlike. Give them a full AK as well
(including a wand of wishing for some nasty surprises), player-style
magical energy, zero base MR (but intrinsic or extrinsic MR). And of
course, they would ignore Elbereth, conflict, and cannot be made
peaceful. Purple worms would also not be able to instakill them.
Hendrik
Urban Nightmare
> I've now ascended multiple times in many different roles.
>
> The game is still fun as crap, but I can understand people wanting a bigger challenge. There's now UNnethack and more Slash 'em stuff to give more challenges.
>
got very good and usually died early and often. Fast forward 15 years
and I just started playing again. Let's just say I'm not fairing much
better. Tend to die around dungeon level 5. I really should figure out
why. Any way I would have to say that no it's not too easy:) But
that's just me.
Urban Nightmare
Living the dream...
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> magicby...@yahoo.com writes:
>
> > I'd like to see a more challenging sequel to Nethack.
>
> > should change the plot of the game itself: different towns and even a
> > different goal, like destroying the amulet with several artifacts you
> > must collect down three different dungeon branches.
>
> Once you've completed your ascension kit, the game is no longer
> challenging at all until you kill the wizard for the first time.
game in vanilla NetHack.
> One way I can think of making the game more challenging
> without changing game mechanics is to make some unique
> monsters (named demons, the high priest of Moloch) more
> playerlike. Give them a full AK as well (including a
> wand of wishing for some nasty surprises), player-style
> magical energy, zero base MR (but intrinsic or extrinsic
> MR). And of course, they would ignore Elbereth, conflict,
> and cannot be made peaceful. Purple worms would also not
> be able to instakill them.
named role-based characters. I figure, the Wizard of Yendor
is fairly challenging and interesting to face, but you never
see him until you go wake him up to get the Book. Well, OK,
he's a wizard, but what if along the way you also had to face
a powerful monk, a powerful barbarian, a powerful valkyrie,
and so on and so forth? Hence, Rasputin, Thargor, Flight,
and so on. I didn't come up with good ones for all the
different NetHack roles, though.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
>
> Tend to die around dungeon level 5. I really should figure out why.
could tell us your username, and we could look at some of
your ttyrecs and see if we notice anything.
Although, I admit, I have a lot of early-game deaths myself.
The first few levels of NetHack can be quite difficult,
depending on what roles you're playing.
magicby...@yahoo.com
For instance, you could have the wand of wishing not exist in the castle and have just a single magic lamp. NOW the game's a lot harder! Having only one wish at the castle COMPLETELY changes the game!
You could have the gnome town completely overrun by mordor orcs at the start, along with an engraved message right before descending the staircase warning people, and a corpse of a dead gnome with a magic marker right next to the engraving.
Unfortunately the minetown priest was killed by the orcs (no buying protection until later in the game). In it's place is a guaranteed acension kit piece (or a nicely pre enchanted piece of armor like fireproof +5 robe)
Place frost brand in the center of the medusa level (underneath the water) along with engravings giving hints about it and players have to figure out how to descend to get it.
You can even make other NEW artifacts in wizard mode (Who wants a Ring of Protection +10?)and bury them at specific points in the game, along with clues and rumors at the oracle for how to find them. (Imagine that, the players need to consult the oracle to learn about all the differences of the new Nethack game!)
In wizard mode, you can wish for five different artifacts and place them in random places. That makes wishing for an artifact impossible (well, bloody unlikely) so players can no longer wish for artifacts.
Move the Amulet of Yendor to Vlad's tower, buried in a specific square. WHen you get to the inner sanctum the Priest of Moloch is carrying a blank scroll named "Your princess is in another castle/Vlad's tower. Go digging elsewhere.". When they return to Vlad's Tower, SURPRISE! It's guarded by one of the Riders.
And so on, but you get the idea.
So you can definitely make the game harder just with different treasure and monster placement. And you can make it more interesting as well.
So: SEQUEL. That's all I'm sayin.
Janis Papanagnou
>
>> One way I can think of making the game more challenging
>> without changing game mechanics is to make some unique
>> monsters (named demons, the high priest of Moloch) more
Like the player characters at Astral; they are challenging.
>
> [...] I figure, the Wizard of Yendor
> is fairly challenging and interesting to face, [...]
You mean it's challenging to see whether the first or the
second zap of your wand of death will instantly kill him? ;-)
As long as there are means to instantly kill some powerful
critter (cockatrice corpses also comes to mind) there's at
some point the desire of players who got the proficiency
to solve the issue to make that solution not work any more.
I think the key to an interesting game is the accumulation
effect; any single means will be solvable more or less easy
but if two or more effects coincide you get in real trouble.
(There's already some such of that implemented.)
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
variants make it somewhat easier early but more difficult later.)
It's not just you. :-)
Janis
Urban Nightmare
people find games easier then others. No matter what game it is I
usually will spend a lot of time in the first few levels just to get
used to things and try out different characters. Once I spend enough
time on it I can muddle through. I just seems I spend a lot more time
getting through then others do. If you really want to go through the
tty logs my user name on nethack.alt.org is ve6cpu.
Urban
Jonadab the Unsightly One
>
> I'm not really worried about it. Just wanted to point out
> that some people find games easier then others. No matter
> what game it is I usually will spend a lot of time in the
> first few levels just to get used to things and try out
> different characters. Once I spend enough time on it I
> can muddle through. I just seems I spend a lot more time
> getting through then others do. If you really want to go
> through the tty logs my user name on nethack.alt.org is ve6cpu.
the dump logs, and it doesn't look like it's the same thing
killing you all the time. You could probably stand to pay
more attention to food-related issues in general, and there
are some non-obvious behaviors that would help (e.g., there
are ways to frighten most monsters away when you are low on
hitpoints), but mostly it looks like a lot of little things
adding up.
Also, with only a dozen games played so far, it's totally
normal to have not gotten very far yet. There's a lot of
stuff to learn in NetHack, and it can take a while to
pick it all up. A dozen deaths is frankly not very many.
David Damerell
>I'd like to see a more challenging sequel to Nethack. The thing about Un and
>'Slash is that they don't feel like Nethack. They feel like a different
>game entirely. What I want is a sequel with all the same bells and
>whistles.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is First Sunday, November - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Second Monday, November.
Urban Nightmare
eat enough a lot of times. Part of the problem is that I have never
spent a lot of time learning the interface and sometimes forget what
commands are available. Should slow down a bit and remember it's a turn
based so if I don't do anything then nothing happens. BTW I've only
played on that server a dozen times or so. I've played on many other
server including my own a lot more then that.
Urban
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Your right about the food issues. Seems I don't
> eat enough a lot of times. Part of the problem
> is that I have never spent a lot of time learning
> the interface and sometimes forget what commands
> are available.
In that case, learn to keep an eye the status line
area. It'll tell you when you are hungry, or worse
than hungry. If you are "weak", it is generally a
Very Good Idea to eat. If you are "fainting", you
should eat immediately, or pray.
The other thing is, it does matter what you eat.
All foods are not equally beneficial or equally
safe. In certain cases, it also matters how
long it has been laying around.
> Should slow down a bit and remember it's a turn
> based so if I don't do anything then nothing happens.
> BTW I've only played on that server a dozen
> times or so. I've played on many other
> server including my own a lot more then that.
on my own computer, personally. I switched to
NAO when I found out about the automatic game
recording that it does.
Patric Mueller
>
> For instance, you could have the wand of wishing not exist in the castle
change the game that much either. Most games in vanilla give you
everything you need to ascend. The WoW in the castle is just a quicker
way of completing your AK.
> You could have the gnome town completely overrun by mordor orcs at the
> start, along with an engraved message right before descending the
> staircase warning people, and a corpse of a dead gnome with a magic
> marker right next to the engraving.
to that.
> Unfortunately the minetown priest was killed by the orcs (no buying
> protection until later in the game). In it's place is a guaranteed
> acension kit piece (or a nicely pre enchanted piece of armor like
> fireproof +5 robe)
game of randomness and guaranteed things break that.
There is still an altar in orctown and lots of orcs corpses to
sacrifice, you already got lots of XP for killing those orcs and then
there _might_ still be a valuable piece of armor from the orcs.
> Place frost brand in the center of the medusa level (underneath the
> water) along with engravings giving hints about it and players have to
> figure out how to descend to get it.
already have reached Medusa. ;-)
> So you can definitely make the game harder just with different treasure
> and monster placement. And you can make it more interesting as well.
>
> So: SEQUEL. That's all I'm sayin.
UnNetHack do? Adding new items, monsters, and items, diversifying the
levels, a bit of balancing?
And then NetHack is open source, if you know a bit of programming, you
can always change the game exactly the way you want to.
Bye
Patric
--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch - http://nethack-de.sf.net/
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/
Hendrik Weimer
> On 20.11.2013 22:02, Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote:
>>
>>> One way I can think of making the game more challenging
>>> without changing game mechanics is to make some unique
>>> monsters (named demons, the high priest of Moloch) more
>>> playerlike. Give them a full AK as well [...]
>
> Like the player characters at Astral; they are challenging.
mediocre speed, they cannot cast any spells, and you don't have to
actually kill them to win the game.
Hendrik
Jonadab the Unsightly One
>
> > Like the player characters at Astral; they are challenging.
>
> Not really. Most of them have neither reflection nor MR and
> have only mediocre speed, they cannot cast any spells, and
> you don't have to actually kill them to win the game.
what a well-equipped player might have at that stage.
Just off the top of my head...
* 80% chance of +1+2d2 speed boots, otherwise 50% chance
of +2+3d2 elvish boots, otherwise equal chance of
water-walking or jumping boots, enchanted to +1+2d2.
* 70% chance of +3+2d2 SDSM; otherwise 70% chance of
+3+2d2 GDSM; otherwise 70% chance of +3+2d2 DSM of a
random color; otherwise equal chance of +7 elvish or
+5 dwarvish mithril. (Exception: monk characters
have no body armor 80% of the time.)
* 3d6 blessed potions of full healing. (This sounds
like a lot, but the AI won't get the most out of them.)
Also, to realistically portray player characters on
the astral plane, they really should have about
100 + 10d50 hitpoints.
* If wearing SDSM, they get an amulet of life-saving;
otherwise, 80% chance of amulet of reflection, or
failing that an amulet of life-saving.
* If wearing SDSM _and_ there is an MR-granting quest
artifact co-aligned with them that has not yet been
generated, they have a 20% chance of getting it.
Wizard characters have an 80% chance at Magicbane
if it does not exist already, and if they get it
the AI should know to have them wield it for MR.
* Valkyrie characters get a 50% chance at the Bowling
Ball of Half Damage, if it does not already exist.
* 70% chance of +3+1d2 gauntlets of dexterity,
otherwise 50% chance of +2+1d3 gauntlets of power,
or failing that they get +3+1d3 leather gloves.
* If not wielding an artifact, 25% chance of a
cockatrice corpse.
* For each player character, 25% chance of a powerful
"pet" -- a named high-level monster. (This would
be the _character's_ pet, not yours; it would be
hostile to You.) These should be at or above
their natural maximum level and should be chosen
from a weighted list that favors the usual late-game
suspects (purple worm, archon, ki-rin, etc.) but
allows for some variety. If capable of using armor
and jewelry, they should get some. Also, 80% chance
of being hasted, since most players do zap their
pets with a wand of Speed Monster if they intend
to keep them.
I'm not sure the ability to cast player spells would
actually make them harder. Off the top of my head,
the only player spell I can think of that you wouldn't
normally be resistant to by the time you reach astral
is drain life. Most of the other attack spells are
meaningless once you have reflection and MR and a full
set of elemental resistances. Create monster is moot
on astral, as it's already pretty well packed with
monsters anyhow. Am I correct in assuming that slow
monster would only bother you if you aren't wearing
speed boots? Charm monster gets existentially weird
to think too hard about -- what does it mean for the
player to get tamed, anyway? Polymorph would just
make MR mandatory, which it mostly already is. What
about cancellation? What would that do?
As for monster spells, there are already other things
on astral that can cast those. I suppose the level
could be beefed up slightly by guaranteeing a couple
of archons, but honestly the astral plane isn't the
part of the late game that I think needs the most
help. It's a bit tedious, sure, but it's just one
level long, and you know it's the end, so you're
psyched up for it. Gehennom needs more work, IMO.
Jist Anidiot
What needs to be done is alleviate the tediousness of Gehennom. If you don't have detect treasure and magic mapping it is one long boring phase of the game. Making the monsters more difficult down there will only mean it will be a hard but tedious phase of the game.
The solution is two fold. First limit Gehennom to 9 levels (I'll let you guess where I came up with that number), with a named demon in each. You can probably buff the demons a bit in this scenario. A few of these levels could be catacomb-like but really they should all be more interesting and special.
The second part is to make up for the loss of 10 or so levels as well as solve the other problem of NH (the other problem being doing the quest should be optional and shouldn't reward one with both the quest artifact and the bell). Basically another branch that ends with retrieving the Bell. I'm thinking a special ritual entrance like vibsq but not quite as difficult or needing anything that is hard to find. Maybe guarantee one of those graves with a bell and just write on it a phrase you can easily get from the priest in minetown (or any priest). Then presto a magic portal to the branch. 5 or 10 levels later you fight a fairly powerful monster and grab the bell of opening.
This has the advantage of limiting the tedious catacombs in Gehennom while maintaining the same number of levels. It also gives a new interesting branch to explore. One could also optionally make the game more difficult by not doing the quest since it would now be strictly optional.
The game is hard enough we don't need to make it harder. Just tweak out the boring parts.
I've been trying to write a patch for to implement this. However I don't know enough C to get past the segmentation fault I get while trying to generate the passphrase to the new branch. Eventually I'll figure it out.
Janis Papanagnou
>
> What needs to be done is alleviate the tediousness of Gehennom. If you
> don't have detect treasure and magic mapping it is one long boring phase of
> the game. Making the monsters more difficult down there will only mean it
> will be a hard but tedious phase of the game.
to pass it quite quickly. Could you explain where you need much time
so that we possibly can suggest some improvement.
A few suggestions in advance; dig down instead of thoroughly searching
for the stairs, you find Vlad in only five well determined levels,
magic mapping requires very few marker charges, shorten way from stair
to stair by digging a shortcut at few effective points, use controlled
teleport, once you have the amulet it does clairvoyance for you,
explore Gehennom from bottom up, make use of liches (that teleport to
the upstairs when having been hit hard) to locate the stairs with ESP,
etc.
Janis
Jorgen Grahn
> Wow lots of horrible horrible horrible ideas [...]
Well, it's free software. We don't have to use it (and personally I'm
quite happy with Vanilla).
> What needs to be done is alleviate the tediousness of Gehennom.
> let you guess where I came up with that number), with a named demon in
> each. You can probably buff the demons a bit in this scenario.
Baalzebub for example -- the only thing they bring to the game is two
more non-teleport levels.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
> On Sun, 2013-12-01, Jist Anidiot wrote:
>> What needs to be done is alleviate the tediousness of Gehennom.
> ...
>> The solution is two fold. First limit Gehennom to 9 levels (I'll
>> let you guess where I came up with that number), with a named demon in
>> each. You can probably buff the demons a bit in this scenario.
>
> IMO the demons /are/ the tedious aspect of Gehennom! Asmodeus and
> Baalzebub for example -- the only thing they bring to the game is two
> more non-teleport levels.
lairs (as opposed to the Wizard Tower levels where you need levelport or
walk all the way). On your way up it's more tedious, but cursed potions
of gain level help a lot. Meleeing those demons is tedious as well, so
best be prepared with footrice corpses or said potions to escape. Since
I applied some of those options as standard procedures it's rarely that
tedious any more. One additional issue that is [designed to be?] annoying
is the mysterious force; actually it multiplies the tediousness of the
demon lairs, and occasionally, if all cursed potions of gain level are
used up, you have to walk long ways again.
Janis
David Damerell
>Wow lots of horrible horrible horrible ideas all making the game harder if
>not impossible. The game is already hard enough. Perhaps too hard even.
weapon and a decent AC, and the game is mine to lose. That's not hard.
>What needs to be done is alleviate the tediousness of Gehennom.
less tedious if it was challenging.
Today is Gouday, November.
Tomorrow will be Chedday, November.
magicby...@yahoo.com
To the person who said "Who would do that for sucky frost brand?" You are wrong. Frost Brand is one of the best weapons in the game because it does double damage against non cold resistant monsters (so few monsters are cold resistant). The only way I wouldn't go after frost brand is if I couldn't even get "basic" in longswords. The only better weapon is mojo in the early game and greyswandir in the late game.
But that's neither here nor there. To the person who said "The game is already hard enough", yes, it's already hard enough, but to people who've ascended nearly every role, it's no longer hard enough (They've become so good that the game isn't as hard as it once was). Those people should be rewarded with a harder challenge, a harder sequel.
As for people who think that Nethack is TOO hard, I would like to program an easier version for them, too. All you have to do to make an easier version is to have better starting equipment, and more guaranteed items. Guaranteed reflection in sokobon, guaranteed magic lamp in gnome town, FOUR treasures in the castle, better treasure at Vlad's, better starting equipment, and so forth and so on.
The person that said "guaranteed items break the game" I agree that having no items guaranteed would make for a really hard ass game. Imagine playing the game and there is no treasure in sokobon, no luckstone, no tool shop, altar or priest in gnome town, no wand of wishing.
To the person that said the wand of wishing doesn't make the game easier, you are wrong. The wand of wishing allows me to change my armor class from -15 to -45, by wishing for wand of polymorph (then I can polymorph scrolls into Enchant Armor, the game's most powerful scroll) and magic markers to write them. It gives you blessed spellbook of identify. Identification is the heart of nethack, and it allows you to identify potions, which allows alchemy up to hundreds of hitpoints. The wand of wishing doesn't just give you ascension kit pieces. Multiple wishes make you insanely powerful. Not to mention you can wish up reflection, magic resistance, and artifact or a wand of death.
Everybody worships the acension kit, but using wishes on that stuff is a waste when you can polypile and get almost anything you need from it.
Here is what I would do in wizard mode to make the game harder:
1. Gnometown: empty out toolshop. No tools in gnometown. No magic lamp, if it's there, destroy it. No luckstone at mines end. potions of healing, extra healing, and full healing instead (pre identified).
2. Sokobon. No bag of holding or amulet. Instead you get oilskin bag as well as +3 cloak of protection (depending on class), and boots of water walking.
3. No altar whatsoever in the early game. Place an altar around level 20, cross aligned. The only guaranteed place to donate to a preist would be the preist of moloch in the valley of the dead (no protection racket). No water prayer or holy water at all until you convert the altar on level 20.
4. I would wish for all artifacts. This means that you couldn't wish for an artifact or get one from sacrificing. Then I would bury the artifacts at predetermined places in the game where you would have to dig them up. Then I would burn text into the ground for how to find them.
5. Puddings and cockatrices are pre genocided (no pudding farming, no wielding the rubber chicken).
6. Single Magic Lamp inside the castle. Three other treasures of minimal value.
7. Way WAY more demons in gehennom.
8. New artifacts, (Dwarven Mithril +12, Ring of increace damage +20, etc.) on special levels or guarded by special monsters, with special clues.
9. More special levels with hidden prizes (red light district with succubi and nymphs, gollum's cavern, the lady of the lake, etc)
10. Make gehennom way harder, multiple places with riders.
David Damerell
>To the person who said "Who would do that for sucky frost brand?" You are
>wrong. Frost Brand is one of the best weapons in the game because it does
While freezing their potions.
>To the person that said the wand of wishing doesn't make the game easier,
>you are wrong. The wand of wishing allows me to change my armor class from
>-15 to -45, by wishing for wand of polymorph (then I can polymorph scrolls
>into Enchant Armor, the game's most powerful scroll) and magic markers to
>write them.
marker?
Also, Patric was talking about the Castle wand. No doubt, this stuff is
nice to find at the Castle; but if you got there, you'll find a lot of it
anyway, and you certainly could survive with your unaugmented AC. You've
done the hard bit.
>It gives you blessed spellbook of identify. Identification is the
> heart of nethack, and it allows you to identify potions, which allows alch
>emy up to hundreds of hitpoints.
potions for alchemy, your identification strategy is hopeless. You should
have bulk-IDed potions and scrolls long before the Castle.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Gorgonzoladay, November - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Potmos, December.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Frost Brand is one of the best weapons in the game
> (so few monsters are cold resistant).
especially nasty (very notably, L). Perhaps
more significantly, there are a number of
non-cold-resistant monsters that I would
still prefer not to attack with Frost Brand
because it would likely destroy useful items
they may be carrying. This is a play-style
issue, but it seems significant to me.
> The only better weapon is mojo in the
> early game and greyswandir in the late game.
the resources to enchant things up to +7,
Excalibur is significantly better. (At +0,
it is the best one-handed weapon against
everything except silver haters. Any silver
weapon is of course better against those.)
> (They've become so good that the game isn't
> as hard as it once was). Those people should
> be rewarded with a harder challenge, a harder sequel.
that starts the game in "hard mode", sort of the
opposite of Explore Mode. It might have various
effects, but here are some ideas:
* Your starting armor can (depending on random
chance) be cursed and/or negatively enchanted.
* The difficulty of randomly generated monsters
is 25-50% higher than it would otherwise be.
* The Castle wand of wishing may, depending on
random chance, be generated already recharged
or possibly even canceled.
* Nymphs get an extra item, which is equally
likely to be a source of speed or invisibility.
* Much stricter alignment record calculations.
* Mandatory conducts, chosen by random at game
start and enforced.
> As for people who think that Nethack is
> TOO hard, I would like to program an easier
> version for them, too.
graded difficulty like a lot of other games,
wherein the first few levels are easy but then
it gets harder as it goes. Vanilla nethack is
pretty much the opposite of this. Actually,
I think it might be good if the early levels
were easy to merely _survive_, but a more
experienced player could get more out of them
to prepare his character for the later levels,
sort of like a BfW campaign.
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:13:05 AM UTC-5, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > (They've become so good that the game isn't
> > as hard as it once was). Those people should
> > be rewarded with a harder challenge, a harder sequel.
>
> For those people, I propose a command-line switch
> that starts the game in "hard mode", sort of the
> opposite of Explore Mode. It might have various
> effects, but here are some ideas:
>
> * Your starting armor can (depending on random
> chance) be cursed and/or negatively enchanted.
this could sometimes happen to starting weapons as well.
> * The difficulty of randomly generated monsters
> is 25-50% higher than it would otherwise be.
effective experience level to be calculated as 30
for monster generation purposes for the remainder
of the game.
> * The Castle wand of wishing may, depending on
> random chance, be generated already recharged
> or possibly even canceled.
> * Much stricter alignment record calculations.
improve your alignment except in special cases
(e.g., killing a major named demon while lawful).
> * Mandatory conducts, chosen by random at game
> start and enforced.
and maybe this time the RNG randomly decides that
you are required to be a vegetarian pacifist. On
the first violation you get a warning message.
After that, infractions could be punished in a
variety of ways, starting with alignment record
and proceeding to worse consequences on subsequent
infractions. Bad luck, divine anger, punishment,
hostile minions, amnesia, ... Repent and start
keeping the conduct(s) or face the consequences.
Additional possibilities for "hard mode":
* You might not get a starting pet.
* The "curse items" monster spell could curse
more of your items on average and possibly
also remove fooproofing and/or enchantment.
* Wearing a cursed amulet of life saving could
be fatal (random chance of instadeath each turn).
* The "summon nasties" monster spell could
occasionally summon monsters of equal or higher
level to the caster.
* If you get the Medusa level with no purple H,
it has a purple L instead (unless you genod them).
* Instead of 75 starting attribute points, you
get 55 + 5d4, i.e., anywhere from 60-75.
* Dwarves' and Orcs' Int and Wis are capped at 14,
Elves' and Gnomes' Dex and Con at 15,
Humans' attributes at 17 except for Str.
* The Sokoban prize has four options: amulet of
reflection, amulet versus poison, bag of holding,
or oilskin sack.
* The extra Sokoban levels from Slash'em could
be included, especially the ones with iron bars.
* Monsters more than a few tiles away display in
monochrome, and / and ; won't tell you which
monster it is, so at a distance a dwarf would
be indistinguishable from a mind flayer --
unless you have astral vision or are telepathic
and blind.
* Buying protection from a cross-aligned priest
(or from the un-aligned one in the Valley)
could fail a percentage of the time. Only a
co-aligned priest would be a reliable source.
* Newly generated levels could have a larger
number of monsters initially.
* To-hit calculations could have a -1d10 penalty
against the player just for being in hard mode.
When monsters are trying to hit you, this
works in reverse, +1d10 to-hit.
* Impairments that time out could last longer.
* There are plenty more ideas where these come
from. Making the game harder is easy, really.
It's making the game *balanced* that's hard.
Obviously, if you complete the game in hard mode
the message at the end would say so. So if you
ascend in hard mode, there would be bragging rights.
People who don't want the game to be harder would
simply not start the game in hard mode.
David Damerell
> * Your starting armor can (depending on random
> chance) be cursed and/or negatively enchanted.
what is needed are changes (*cough*, Spork) to keep the player on their
toes in the middle game, where at present once you have MR/reflection/AC/
HP/weapon sorted, the game is yours to lose with 99.something% of monsters
nothing but speedbumps.
> * The Castle wand of wishing may, depending on
> random chance, be generated already recharged
> or possibly even canceled.
random chance" things. That leads to shooting craps until you get a good
game; in this situation, the player can still luck out with a wand of
wishing on level 1.
I'd go the other way. Wands of wishing can never be wrested or recharged.
The Castle wand has from 1 to 3 charges. No other wand of wishing is
generated with more than 1 charge.
David Damerell
> against the player just for being in hard mode.
somehow survive that, it makes no difference at all.
I suggested the following a few years ago:
Lower monster ACs dramatically. A first stab at it would be to improve
each monster's AC by its HD.
Monster negative AC works like it does for the player; each time you are
attacked, your AC for the purpose of not being hit is rnd(AC), but you
also get rnd(AC) damage reduction.
_However_, when the player attacks a monster, each point by which the roll
to hit exceeds the monster's AC eliminates a point of damage reduction.
What's the consequence? Extra to-hit is always useful - meaning that if
(eg) two-weapon combat is to be reworked, to-hit penalties can be
meaningful - but monsters can be given fearsome ACs without ever rendering
them impervious to attack.
magicby...@yahoo.com
>
> especially nasty (very notably, L).
The bigger ones are:
white dragon, frost giant and Ice troll. I don't know if I've ever seen either of these three, they are very rare. I saw an ice troll in one game, but he wasn't a threat by that point.I've never seen a white dragon, they are really rare.
That leaves:
Winter wolf cub, winter wolf, Yeti. If you have frost resistance or reflection, those won't be much of a threat. I even beat a whole pack of winter wolf cubs without either resistance OR reflection, they aren't too big a threat to most combat/wombats who are wielding Frost Brand. So I guess Yeti earlygame with frost brand would be your only concern. I've never had a problem.
In terms of freezing potions, are you sure Frost Brand does that? I've never seen a message that potions were frozen, does the game do this on the sly or something? I haven't noticed a shortage of potion drops using the weapon, and I just recently reverse genocided Nymphs to get some potions of object detection, and Frost Brand worked fine for that. If it is happening it must be so rare as to not be an issue.
Excalibur is not the best one handed weapon. Mjollnir is the best one handed weapon. I don't understand how Nethack players don't get this. It does an average damage of 17.5 and 18.5 respectively UNENCHANTED. It is the best unenchanted weapon in the game because it is the best weapon in the EARLY game (the early game is the hardest part of Nethack). Excalibur does 12 and 13 on average unenchanted. It's not even close. Even two handed weapons don't do as much unenchanted on average as Mjollnir!!!!
Frost Brand and Greyswandir are better in the late game because their x2 damage gets multiplied by their bonus (and you will enchant them later). But of course, "later" doesn't matter so much because the weapon that is strongest in the early game is the strongest weapon overall. Mojo is also a hammer which can be wielded by more classes than longsword. I've never lost a game once I've laid hold of mojo. It's SO powerful early game and is easy to get as a sac gift (for any neutral, not just valkyrie). There's one rare dragon (easy to beat if you have reflection), grid bugs (I mean, who's afraid of a grid bug), Storm Giants (taken down easily without the extra shock damage) and electric eels (can't grab you if you have MC3 and they don't have many hit points).
Magicbane is also in the top tier because it protects you from monsters by scaring, confusing and stunning them and also engraves Elbereth without dulling. Magicbane is the only artifact weapon that conveys magic resistance. It's also the only artifact that conveys MR which is unaligned. Honorable mentions are Stormbringer and The staff of Aescepulis. Their level draining property, if counted as damage makes them very powerful. Unfortunately the staff is two handed (no shield, no two weaponing, can get cursed and leave you with no hands) and stormy attacks peaceful creatures, it's one more important thing to remember.
So there's no breaking top tier: Mojo is first, followed by Greyswandir then Frost Brand and then Magicbane.
//////wait, what were we talking about?
jim in austin
> Excalibur is not the best one handed weapon. Mjollnir is the best
> one handed weapon. I don't understand how Nethack players don't get
> this. It does an average damage of 17.5 and 18.5 respectively
> UNENCHANTED. It is the best unenchanted weapon in the game because
> it is the best weapon in the EARLY game (the early game is the
> hardest part of Nethack). Excalibur does 12 and 13 on average
> unenchanted. It's not even close. Even two handed weapons don't
> do as much unenchanted on average as Mjollnir!!!!
it is indeed transformative. And there is little else they can wield
that will be as effective for the rest of the game...
magicby...@yahoo.com
>
>
> I can attest that should a Priest get their hands on an early Mjollnir
>
> it is indeed transformative. And there is little else they can wield
>
> that will be as effective for the rest of the game...
I've ascended two neutral priests with mojo, Two valks and a barbarian with it. It's not as powerful in the late game as the other weapons but why does no one acknowledge that it's the best early game weapon????!!! It's so good!
I also don't understand why people think that priest is a tough class. IT ISN'T.
To me, priest is the easiest class.
Knowing everything is either cursed or blessed lets you put stuff on RIGHT NOW, which avoids pet dancing every little piece of equipment, or the haul down to or from the mines. You never miss out on an enchanted piece of armor ever. The fact that priests START with holy water means that if they find a magic lamp in gnometown they can wish for a POWERFUL ITEM (like mojo or SDSM) IMMEDIATELY. I've had other characters die with a magic lamp or two in inventory. (no co aligned temple in minetown, or they die trying to get a water prayer)Obviously
never happens with priests.
Step one: Be a priest. Step two: go to gnomish mines and get a magic lamp (1/5 chance). Step Three: bless it and wish for mojo. Step five: You don't need a step five, you'll slay everything and now the game is easy.
G-Mon
news:212ca74b-e07d-4e67...@googlegroups.com:
> Step one: Be a priest. Step two: go to gnomish mines and get a
> magic lamp (1/5 chance). Step Three: bless it and wish for mojo.
> Step five: You don't need a step five, you'll slay everything and
> now the game is easy.
Or a cadre of killer bees. Or a storm giant/energy vortex/human-shaped
(and E-ignoring) A. Point being, the RNG still has ways to get you at
that point.
--
ATTENTION:
Our trolls are kept on a very strict diet.
Please do not feed them.
The Management,
REC.GAMES.ROGUELIKE.NETHACK TREASURE ZOO
Janis Papanagnou
>> Some of the ones that are cold-resistant are
>>
>> especially nasty (very notably, L).
>
> Who doesn't genocide L's and Mindflayers?
early/mid game.
> [...] I often do it before the castle.
It's not necessary to kill them; they are very helpful when exploring
Gehennom bottum up, so often (depending on the actual games) I don't
genocide them or do that not before all Gehennom levels are explored.
Without pressing necessity I also want to try the chances to obtain
an athame (or even Magicbane) from the purple ones.
> I've ascended many characters and I've never fought a lich.
(or resp. quite safe) to melee them.
> I just
> genocide them first. So that's not really relevant.With them gone
> what nasty monsters are you facing with cold resistance?
equipped with Frostbrand and Firebrand; both are helpful there, the
Fire for the undead and the frost for the demons.)
> The bigger ones are: white dragon, frost giant and Ice troll. I don't
> know if I've ever seen either of these three, they are very rare.
monsters. Throne rooms and the like deeper down also often have those
monsters as population.
> I
> saw an ice troll in one game, but he wasn't a threat by that
> point.I've never seen a white dragon, they are really rare.
list of possible candidates.
> In terms of freezing potions, are you sure Frost Brand does that?
should have noticed.
> [...] If it is happening it must be so rare as to not be an issue.
It happens fairly often. But I agree with you that it is not really
an issue, since Frostbrand is one of the best weapons anyway.
>
> Excalibur is not the best one handed weapon. Mjollnir is the best one
> handed weapon. I don't understand how Nethack players don't get this.
an excellent *universal* weapon; early searching is invaluable, and
level drain resistance handy. Mjollnir, in the early game, is also
an excellent weapon. Later when you meet dangerous shock resistant
monsters Mjollnir loses significance. Another excellent weapon, not
only for the early game, is Magicbane; protects against polytraps and
magic attacks, improves your (throwing) daggers skill while meleeing,
and allows single turn engravings to be safe from most of the monster
in the dungeons.
> It does an average damage of 17.5 and 18.5 respectively UNENCHANTED.
> It is the best unenchanted weapon in the game because it is the best
> weapon in the EARLY game (the early game is the hardest part of
> Nethack). Excalibur does 12 and 13 on average unenchanted. It's not
> even close. Even two handed weapons don't do as much unenchanted on
> average as Mjollnir!!!!
> [...] I've never lost a game once I've laid hold of mojo.
I've got killed at least once by a electric eel. (Be free to call me
stupid for meleeing those beasts with Mjollnir.)
> It's SO powerful early game and is easy to get as a sac gift (for any
assignments the artifacts are solely randomly chosen by alignment; you
will get any co-aligned or unaligned artifact weapon.
> neutral, not just valkyrie). There's one rare dragon (easy to beat if
> you have reflection), grid bugs (I mean, who's afraid of a grid bug),
> Storm Giants (taken down easily without the extra shock damage) and
> electric eels (can't grab you if you have MC3 and they don't have
> many hit points).
applicable. It's not rare that I am lacking reflection until finishing
the Castle. And I am not guaranteed to have MC3; often I feel lucky if
I have found a cloak of displacement (MC2). Stormgiants are tough, and
thinking about meleeing such a horde (typically they seem to appear in
hordes of 4 members) with a hammer and Basic weapon proficiency is no
peace of cake. But sure, "if" you also have a high AC (not uncommon)
you may ignore that, or even switch to your +1 toothpick to melee them.
>
> Magicbane is also in the top tier because it protects you from
> monsters by scaring, confusing and stunning them and also engraves
> Elbereth without dulling. Magicbane is the only artifact weapon that
> conveys magic resistance. It's also the only artifact that conveys MR
> which is unaligned. Honorable mentions are Stormbringer and The staff
> of Aescepulis. Their level draining property, if counted as damage
> makes them very powerful. Unfortunately the staff is two handed (no
> shield, no two weaponing, can get cursed and leave you with no hands)
> and stormy attacks peaceful creatures, it's one more important thing
> to remember.
>
> So there's no breaking top tier: Mojo is first, followed by
> Greyswandir then Frost Brand and then Magicbane.
certainly wouldn't spit on the others you mention.
Janis
rpresser
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:39:31 AM UTC-5, Jonadab the
> Unsightly One wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:13:05 AM UTC-5,
> Or maybe sometimes you just don't get any. Perhaps this could
> sometimes happen to starting weapons as well.
into the Dungeons of Doom without any armor or weapon whatsoever.
Janis Papanagnou
I'd use all until the endgame, but Mjollnir. Two reasons for not
using Mjollnir are air elementals and its wand destroying effect;
once I used it by accident and destroyed Orcus' wand of death which
I'd have needed for the Wizard and the Riders. For that reason it's
IMO not worth enchanting Mjollnir or overly enhancing your weapon
skill in hammers; for the early game you don't need it enchanted because
of its huge shock damage, later you may need skill slots and
your scrolls for those artifact weapons that you want to ascend with.
Janis
Jonadab the Unsightly One
>
> I also don't understand why people think that
> priest is a tough class. IT ISN'T.
and are restricted in all the really good weapon skills.
This can be overcome with an artifact weapon and/or
a spellbook of magic missile, but you don't usually
have either of those things for the first while.
> Knowing everything is either cursed or blessed
> The fact that priests START with holy water
> Step one: Be a priest. Step two: go to gnomish mines
into the Mines first thing. With a poor weapon and
often lousy strength and not-so-great hit points,
they can die pretty quickly there. Better to stick
to the main dungeon for a few levels, IMO, and then
backtrack to the Mines after picking up some decent
armor and gaining a couple of experience levels (and
thus some hit points).
> and get a magic lamp (1/5 chance). Step Three:
> bless it and wish for mojo.
slightly more than one wish. It's *really* nice
to have light all the time and not run out. A
lot of deaths can be avoided this way.
Granted, with a priest, it would be more tempting
than for most other roles, because they really do
need a good weapon, and they're restricted in, like,
more or less everything. Most roles have a larger
variety of options in this regard.
Janis Papanagnou
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:03:41 AM UTC-5, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> I also don't understand why people think that
>> priest is a tough class. IT ISN'T.
>
> Mostly because they start the game with no good weapon
does a sufficiently good job (until I accidentally hit
some acid blobs or anysuch).
> and are restricted in all the really good weapon skills.
and no daggers (or knifes) as missiles. Though the latter
is somewhat compensated[*] by darts, bows and crossbows,
and all those can be found even very early in the mines
in abundance.
[*] "somewhat", because priests can only get Basic in those.
>
> Priests aren't really one of the roles I would take
> into the Mines first thing. With a poor weapon and
> often lousy strength and not-so-great hit points,
> they can die pretty quickly there.
their heavy armor by mithril (which is important due
to the strength/carrying capacity issue you mentioned).
>
> Granted, with a priest, it would be more tempting
> than for most other roles, because they really do
> need a good weapon, and they're restricted in, like,
> more or less everything. Most roles have a larger
> variety of options in this regard.
all weapons! Just not in the powerful weapon types, as
mentioned above. Given that most good artifacts are
longswords (or a broadsword/runesword, or a specific
dagger) you cannot train any of the effective weapons
for some artifact you'll get later (with the exception
of a [rare] hammer, for a lucky gift of Mjollnir).
Janis
David Damerell
>slightly more than one wish. It's *really* nice
>to have light all the time and not run out. A
>lot of deaths can be avoided this way.
from the oil lamp, which will last a while; in the late game you'll have
light, you'll just have to do a bit more inventory management if you
burned the lamp. So you're trading off a possible lack of light somewhere
down the line versus an 80% chance of your DSM of choice. The latter is
much more likely to save your life.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
If we aren't perfectly synchronised this corncob will explode!
Today is Potmos, December.
Tomorrow will be Teleute, December.
David Damerell
ascensions, and killed Ls and hs plenty of times before genociding them.
>In terms of freezing potions, are you sure Frost Brand does that? I've never
>seen a message that potions were frozen, does the game do this on the sly
>or something? I haven't noticed a shortage of potion drops using the
>weapon, and I just recently reverse genocided Nymphs to get some potions
>of object detection, and Frost Brand worked fine for that. If it is
>happening it must be so rare as to not be an issue.
One time in four is not rare. And yes, it prints a message.
>Excalibur is not the best one handed weapon. Mjollnir is the best one
>handed weapon.
that Excalibur's searching is useful, and that Mojo also destroys items.
>mage) and electric eels (can't grab you if you have MC3 and they don't have
> many hit points).
with?
Janis Papanagnou
> Quoting Jonadab the Unsightly One <jonadab.the...@gmail.com>:
>> I tend to value a magic lamp (if I only have one)
>> slightly more than one wish. It's *really* nice
>> to have light all the time and not run out. A
>> lot of deaths can be avoided this way.
>
> I'm with Rast on this one; not in the early game. You'll get the light
> from the oil lamp, which will last a while; in the late game you'll have
> light, you'll just have to do a bit more inventory management if you
> burned the lamp. So you're trading off a possible lack of light somewhere
> down the line versus an 80% chance of your DSM of choice. The latter is
> much more likely to save your life.
In case you are lacking the correct scales reverse genocide will
provide you with a sufficiently high chance the scales of desired
color.
I'd also keep the perma-light source. It can't be manufactured, it
can't be wished for; it's a unique sort of item.[*] It helps keep
you alife in the early game, it's very convenient in the late game
when you already have [almost] everything else you need.
There are cases where I'd try the 80% chance for a necessary item
in the cases where I find an early magic lamp. But I avoid wasting
it without need, if I can.
Of course, you can wish for a ring of poison resistance (and die
from a zapped wand), or wish for reflection (and die of poison), or
wish for SDSM/GDSM (and die of poison), etc.
My personal strategy is; whatever can be found with some chance in
dedicated places, or manufactured with appropriate items/monsters,
I don't wish for.
Janis
[*] Besides the Sunsword.
magicby...@yahoo.com
> Or a cadre of killer bees. Or a storm giant/energy vortex/human-shaped
>
> (and E-ignoring) A. Point being, the RNG still has ways to get you at
>
> that point.
Storm giants don't appear until after the castle (I've never seen them till after the castle) so they're pretty irrelevant. After the castle you should be so powerful that they're not relevant.
Energy vortexes are something to fear although the spoiler doesn't say that they are lightning resistant. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
A gnome with a wand isn't relevant for this example. A gnome with a wand can kill you no matter what artifact weapon you're wielding. My point is that mojo is the best early game weapon and does tremendous damage EVEN MORE DAMAGE THAN TWO HANDED ARTIFACT WEAPONS when it's unenchanted. That dramatically increases your chances for survival more than ANY OTHER ARTIFACT WEAPON. That's the point.
magicby...@yahoo.com
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:03:41 AM UTC-5, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >
>
> > I also don't understand why people think that
>
> > priest is a tough class. IT ISN'T.
>
>
>
> Mostly because they start the game with no good weapon
>
> and are restricted in all the really good weapon skills.
With other roles I die with a magic lamp in my inventory ALL THE TIME. With a priest that never happens, and thus they ascend more often. It makes the role far better than other roles in many ways, but people don't think of these aspects for some reason, and chalk up priest as a "weak" class. The ability to instantly identify armor also has saved me innumerable times, when other characters had to dance with their pets every time a new piece of armor came along.
This is especially true in the gnomish mines, where it's dangerous do dilly dally and dance with your pets in such a dangerous area.
INSTANT id of armor SAVES you in the early game.
>
> Priests aren't really one of the roles I would take
>
> into the Mines first thing.
With a poor weapon and
>
> often lousy strength and not-so-great hit points,
>
> they can die pretty quickly there.
> Better to stick
>
> to the main dungeon for a few levels,
IMO, and then
>
> backtrack to the Mines after picking up some decent
>
> armor and gaining a couple of experience levels (and
>
> thus some hit points).
>
>
>
> > and get a magic lamp (1/5 chance). Step Three:
>
> > bless it and wish for mojo.
>
>
>
> I tend to value a magic lamp (if I only have one)
>
> slightly more than one wish. It's *really* nice
>
> to have light all the time and not run out. A
>
> lot of deaths can be avoided this way.
having a magic lamp prevents you from dying, more than SDSM or mojo.
Nope, don't buy it. And there's no way you can convince me of that. DSM and mojo are too strong.
David Damerell
>Am 06.12.2013 16:54, schrieb David Damerell:
>>burned the lamp. So you're trading off a possible lack of light somewhere
>>down the line versus an 80% chance of your DSM of choice. The latter is
>>much more likely to save your life.
>But you know where to find dragons, and you can manufacture DSM.
Minetown lighting shop. With many a mishap between here and there which
might be averted by wearing a DSM.
>In case you are lacking the correct scales reverse genocide will
>provide you with a sufficiently high chance the scales of desired
>color.
sufficiently sure of the supply of genocides not to need that scroll for
liches (or mind flayers, or emergencies), and can fight off a mass of
dragons. _Also_ a long way from the Minetown lighting store.
>I'd also keep the perma-light source. It can't be manufactured, it
>can't be wished for; it's a unique sort of item.[*] It helps keep
>you alife in the early game,
Minetown lighting store or elsewhere, you have at least 1000 turns in dark
places to play before burning the magic lamp makes any difference at all.
>it's very convenient in the late game
>when you already have [almost] everything else you need.
>My personal strategy is; whatever can be found with some chance in
>dedicated places, or manufactured with appropriate items/monsters,
>I don't wish for.
David Damerell
>hese aspects for some reason, and chalk up priest as a "weak" class. The ab
>ility to instantly identify armor also has saved me innumerable times, when
> other characters had to dance with their pets every time a new piece of ar
>mor came along.
the tiny number of turns it takes.
David Damerell
>False, false, false. Killer bees and ants (two of the biggest early game
>threats) go down to mojo like drunks slipping off a bar stool.
Killer bees, in particular, have only one hit die.
>Energy vortexes are something to fear although the spoiler doesn't say that
> they are lightning resistant. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
>A gnome with a wand isn't relevant for this example. A gnome with a wand can
>kill you no matter what artifact weapon you're wielding.
unusually, doesn't grant the matching resistance.
>My point is that
> mojo is the best early game weapon and does tremendous damage EVEN MORE DA
>MAGE THAN TWO HANDED ARTIFACT WEAPONS when it's unenchanted. That dramatica
>lly increases your chances for survival more than ANY OTHER ARTIFACT WEAPON
>. That's the point.
examples of how that extra damage helps include monsters where, er, it
Jonadab the Unsightly One
> Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>
> >Am 06.12.2013 16:54, schrieb David Damerell:
>
> >>burned the lamp. So you're trading off a possible lack
> Even if you discovered no other consumable light in the
> Minetown lighting store or elsewhere, you have at least
> 1000 turns in dark places to play before burning the
> magic lamp makes any difference at all.
Yes, if you're enough of a speed runner to think a
thousand turns is a long time, then you can probably
get by with oil lamps and/or brass lanterns.
I used to always run out of light sources and die
because of things that could have been prevented
if I'd had one. Eventually I learned to keep my
lamps turned off most of the time and only turn
them on when I really need them (mostly, in dark
open areas that I have not already explored), but
this is horribly inconvenient and still somewhat
risky. Having a magic lamp means I have light
all the time, including when exploring corridors
and walking back across previously explored areas.
This is significantly safer, so I try to always
do this if I have the option.
Just to be clear, I'm not talking mostly about the
late game here. I do tend to keep the magic lamp
and carry it then too, just because I can, but
I'm mostly talking about the importance of light
in the early game, *particularly* in the Mines.
I'm not yet good enough at this game to get from
Minetown all the way to Mine's End and back within
the lifespans of three non-magic light sources,
let alone one, if I leave it on all the time.
David Damerell
>>Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
>>>Am 06.12.2013 16:54, schrieb David Damerell:
>>>>burned the lamp. So you're trading off a possible lack
>>>>of light somewhere down the line...
>>Even if you discovered no other consumable light in the
>>Minetown lighting store or elsewhere, you have at least
>>1000 turns in dark places to play before burning the
>>magic lamp makes any difference at all.
>thousand turns is a long time, then you can probably
>get by with oil lamps and/or brass lanterns.
because you're wasting turns on dark levels, there's something to fix
there.
Janis Papanagnou
> [...]
You seem to get wishes regularly before you find, e.g., dragons or scrolls
of genocide. That doesn't seem to be the case for me. You get holy water
(and the co-aligned altar) for blessing a random magic lamp earlier than
unholy water (from fountains) to curse a scroll of genocide. You find more
likely magic lamps than genocide scrolls. Well, okay.
You spend a random magic lamp immediately for a chance of DSM, whether
necessary or not, whether it might be better to get poison resistance,
or reflection because there's some gnome that already shot one offensive
wand at you. You call it a "voluntary challenge" to wait for the best
choice for an early wish at an appropriate time? Well, it's your opinion,
and that's fine.
Janis
Jorgen Grahn
[The usefulness of Frost Brand]
>> Some of the ones that are cold-resistant are
>> especially nasty (very notably, L).
>
> Who doesn't genocide L's and Mindflayers? That's basic in nethack,
> it's called "genociding nasties". I often do it before the castle.
best attack wands and spells for them rather than melee them for a
longish time.
> The bigger ones are: white dragon, frost giant and Ice troll. I
> don't know if I've ever seen either of these three, they are very
> rare. I saw an ice troll in one game, but he wasn't a threat by that
> point.I've never seen a white dragon, they are really rare.
expect.
But it is as you noted about the single ice troll: when you meet them,
an enchanted long sword is enough. If you got levels full of white
dragons, that would be a different story.
> In terms of freezing potions, are you sure Frost Brand does that?
> I've never seen a message that potions were frozen, does the game do
> this on the sly or something?
IME, the potion freezing effect happens once in a while -- more rarely
I suppose if you kill the monster with fewer hits. For me it feels
worth it: I sacrifice (what feels like) a small fraction of the
potions, and get a kick-ass weapon.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Jonadab the Unsightly One
>
> You seem to get wishes regularly before you find, e.g.,
> dragons or scrolls of genocide.
This is not completely out of line with my experience,
although I hadn't attempted to pin down the numbers that
precisely. When I do get one, I am happy about it :-)
When I do not get a magic lamp, the game goes on anyway.
> You get holy water (and the co-aligned altar)
> for blessing a random magic lamp earlier than
> unholy water (from fountains) to curse a scroll
Priest role, which does indeed get early holy water.
That's one of their two advantages, and frankly it's
the lesser of the two.
> You find more likely magic lamps than genocide
> scrolls. Well, okay.
I frequently do not have the resources to formally
identify all of my items. I do tend to prioritize
300zm scrolls, but I can imagine someone else might
construct their list differently. Identification
is so central to the game that there are bound to
be different approaches to it.
Where I really differ from David is this: He
seems to feel that one early wish greatly increases
the odds of survival. I have not found that to be
the case, personally. Perhaps I'm just not good
enough at the game yet, but I find that one wish
just leaves you wanting more wishes, because it
clearly isn't enough to give me all the things I
need to save my life. Besides reflection and MR,
I usually also need a better weapon (unless I'm
a Valk or Knight, in which case I usually would
already have Excalibur), and often I would really
really really like to have speed boots, and I can
always think of additional things I would *like*
to have if I could get my grubby little hands on
them. A bag of holding would save me thousands of
turns in round trips to stashes. Magic markers
are always nice, and I'm usually missing some
important scrolls that I haven't even seen yet.
The right ring in the early game can save your
life half a dozen times over.
But at some point you just have to play the game
with what you've got. If you survive long enough,
all these things and more will come to you eventually.
There's a reason wishless is considered one of the
easiest conducts. You don't actually *need* to wish
for anything, because there are other ways to get
everything you really need.
Well, unless you find an early wand of wishing.
Then you really can get enough things to greatly
improve your odds of survival. I think my rate
of ascension when finding an early wand of wishing
is something like 50%, which is MUCH better than
my overall rate. But that's not mostly because
of the _first_ thing I wish for. It's an aggregate
effect of the first _half dozen_ things I wish for
in such a situation.
Jorgen Grahn
> On Friday, December 6, 2013 2:03:41 AM UTC-5, magicby...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> bless it and wish for mojo.
>
> I tend to value a magic lamp (if I only have one)
> slightly more than one wish. It's *really* nice
> to have light all the time and not run out. A
> lot of deaths can be avoided this way.
tough choice, but I ended up wishing for GDSM, since the game wasn't
going anywhere. No really good stats or equipment which would help me
-- it would have ended with me taking a risk and getting killed.
An infinite light source is worth more than wish #2 or #3, but a wish
#1 may be preferable. I'll hate doing the mazes knowing I could have
had a magic lamp ...
> Granted, with a priest, it would be more tempting
> than for most other roles, because they really do
> need a good weapon, and they're restricted in, like,
> more or less everything. Most roles have a larger
> variety of options in this regard.
(What happened then was a nymph stole the GDSM and a lot of things
beside, and I killed her in a shop. Now I have to collect 1621
zorkmids to pay off the shopkeeper ... Whatever happened to laws
against trading stolen goods?)
Jorgen Grahn
> Quoting <magicby...@yahoo.com>:
>>hese aspects for some reason, and chalk up priest as a "weak" class. The ab
>>ility to instantly identify armor also has saved me innumerable times, when
>> other characters had to dance with their pets every time a new piece of ar
>>mor came along.
>
> You must be extraordinarily bad at pet-testing armour to keep dying during
> the tiny number of turns it takes.
pet-test /every/ orcish piece of armor I see in case it's +2 ...
>> INSTANT id of armor SAVES you in the early game.
armor. But so what? You get a +1 cloak, or +2 mithril instead of +0.
This is not enough IMO to offset the general fighting weakness of priests.
What the BUC testing ability /does/ give you is variation. The game
is still hard, but you're relieved from one boring aspect. When I
think about it, that's what drives my role selection: if I'm bored
with not being a good early game fighter, I choose a Samurai; if I
want interesting spells and rings I choose a Wizard; if I want to
steal souls I go chaotic ... and if I'm tired of running around
looking for altars I choose a Priest.