Are there any 12-conduct ascensions?
Carl
Well I took a couple of weeks off from Nethack and now I'm starting to
think through my next project. I'm going to try for a twelve conduct
ascension. So, I was looking around online and I couldn't find any
articles on eleven (excepting mine own) or twelve (excepting
Conducty1's) conduct ascensions. So, that got me wondering, have
there been any write-ups or YAAP's of 12 conduct ascensions and more
over, has there ever been a 12 conduct ascension, with the exception
of Shawn Moore's? Anyone else here tried before?
I believe that I have most of the pieces worked out, and I think I've
identified the areas that will require a magnanimous RNG and what
areas I can help myself with.
I'm going to give the game a few tries in Wizmode just to save me some
headache but the basics that I've worked out are:
start the game with a ring of slow digestion and a ring of polymorph
control;
don't kill anything
-bump kill a lichen and start over;
visit the oracle and get to level 3;
find a ring of polymorph eventually, and a wand, potion, or trap of
polymorph before 17,000 turns (requires luck)
-starve and start over;
find a potion of holy water above Gehennom (requires luck)
-maybe start over if I don't find holy water :/
polytrap a pet into a succubus and increase levels (requires a
polytrap, obviously);
poly-trap a pet into a purple worm and clear the VotD;
farm xorns with Purple Burple on quest to acquire teleport wands and
potions of paralysis;
use a purple worm to clear Gehennom;
try to avoid chameleons and polytraps;
go back to polytrap and re-acquire a purple worm;
keep clearing Gehennom;
visit Wizard with Level 30+ purple worm;
visit Baalzebub Express courier service;
acquire amulet;
make haste for the surface;
watch as Purple Burple repeatedly attacks fire elementals and then
dies;
zip through Planes (playing pacifist through the planes is not that
different from my normal method, but my concern will be that
polymorphing air elementals could inadvertently break my pacifist
conduct so maybe too risky);
wand of teleport and potion of paralysis my way through Astral;
Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
--
Carl
Carl
[snip]
> polytrap a pet into a succubus and increase levels (requires a
> polytrap, obviously);
Actually at least one polytrap is guaranteed on the Quest Locate level
but I won't have access to that until I am level 14 or higher.
Michiel Helvensteijn
> think through my next project. I'm going to try for a twelve conduct
> ascension. So, I was looking around online and I couldn't find any
> articles on eleven (excepting mine own) or twelve (excepting
> Conducty1's) conduct ascensions. So, that got me wondering, have
> there been any write-ups or YAAP's of 12 conduct ascensions and more
> over, has there ever been a 12 conduct ascension, with the exception
> of Shawn Moore's? Anyone else here tried before?
>
> I believe that I have most of the pieces worked out, and I think I've
> identified the areas that will require a magnanimous RNG and what
> areas I can help myself with.
>
>
>
> Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
So, for the newbies out there (including me), which conducts will you then
have kept? And which race/alignment will you use (I guess the two rings
would imply a wizard)?
Anyway, good luck. I admire your patience. Have you worked out how many
times you can expect to start over just because of the RNG?
--
Michiel
Henry J Cobb
> visit the oracle and get to level 3;
Will that really give enough XP?
> polymorph before 17,000 turns (requires luck)
> -starve and start over;
How about fruit juice? (Start with cancel?)
> Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
Good luck, post your failures often please.
Best second spell would be? (I'd choose confuse monsters personally...)
-HJC
Carl
> > Well I took a couple of weeks off from Nethack and now I'm starting to
> > think through my next project. I'm going to try for a twelve conduct
> > ascension. So, I was looking around online and I couldn't find any
> > articles on eleven (excepting mine own) or twelve (excepting
> > Conducty1's) conduct ascensions. So, that got me wondering, have
> > there been any write-ups or YAAP's of 12 conduct ascensions and more
> > over, has there ever been a 12 conduct ascension, with the exception
> > of Shawn Moore's? Anyone else here tried before?
>
> > I believe that I have most of the pieces worked out, and I think I've
> > identified the areas that will require a magnanimous RNG and what
> > areas I can help myself with.
>
> > ...
>
> > Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
>
> So, for the newbies out there (including me), which conducts will you then
> have kept? And which race/alignment will you use (I guess the two rings
> would imply a wizard)?
In Vanilla, only 12 conducts are tracked, so I'm trying to keep them
all:
vegetarian, vegan, foodless, atheist, illiterate, genoless,
weaponless, pacifist, wishless, artifact wishless, polyitemless,
polyselfless.
I'll use an orc for the poison resistance and infravision is nice, and
a wizard for the starting inventory
>
> Anyway, good luck. I admire your patience. Have you worked out how many
> times you can expect to start over just because of the RNG?
>
Thanks for the luck, I'll need it. As for how many tries it will take
me, that depends on how one counts. When I was trying for 11 conducts
I had the right starting ring combination about 5% of the time but my
attempts so far for 12 conducts only gave me the right starting ring
combination about 0.5% of the time. Beyond that I'll most likely die
of my own accord far far more frequently than due to insufficient
provision by the RNG. But, I'm guessing 50-100 attempts, and maybe
far more.
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> > visit the oracle and get to level 3;
>
> Will that really give enough XP?
Yes.
>
> > polymorph before 17,000 turns (requires luck)
> > -starve and start over;
>
> How about fruit juice? (Start with cancel?)
True. Fruit juice, booze, and water will give nutrition so those will
help in a pinch. A blessed potion of fruit juice or booze will give
an extra 600 turns of nutrition while wearing 1 ring.
>
> > Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
>
> Good luck, post your failures often please.
Thanks!
>
> Best second spell would be? (I'd choose confuse monsters personally...)
>
Charm monster! Confuse monster would actually be pretty handy,
though.
Philip Potter
> farm xorns with Purple Burple on quest to acquire teleport wands and
> potions of paralysis;
What do you mean by this?
> Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
Good luck! I think the main difference between this and 11- or
10-conducts is that with pacifist you can't pudding farm, which makes
acquiring needed loot very difficult indeed.
Phil
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> > farm xorns with Purple Burple on quest to acquire teleport wands and
> > potions of paralysis;
>
> What do you mean by this?
purple worm. I'll use my pet purple worm to swallow xorns on the
quest level. Since they'll die in one hit, the monsters won't be able
to use their wands of teleport or potions of healing, therefore I get
them. The benefit of working on the quest level is that most of the
monsters will be B, which are relatively harmless to a pet purple
worm. But there is a 17% chance of a monster being a Xorn or a random
W, both of which might be carrying useful inventory. The chance of a
random shapechanger is also much reduced.
>
> > Seems pretty straightforward to me. It just might take a while!
>
> Good luck! I think the main difference between this and 11- or
> 10-conducts is that with pacifist you can't pudding farm, which makes
> acquiring needed loot very difficult indeed.
>
randomly generated, I might have to go without.
Henry J Cobb
> Good luck! I think the main difference between this and 11- or
> 10-conducts is that with pacifist you can't pudding farm, which makes
> acquiring needed loot very difficult indeed.
Ring of conflict and start with Create Monster.
-HJC
Carl
the monster's starting inventory. No death drops are generated unless
the monster is killed directly or indirectly by the player (as I
understand it). The other problem with causing conflict is that
monsters will use up their potions of foohealing and wands of
teleportation when things get dire.
Carl
[snip]
> Good luck, post your failures often please.
>
So far so good, some disappointments though.
Of my 503 (!!!) rerolls, I've played 10. Of those 10, there were 2
rather nice starts that ended badly:
game 64 ~ made it to turn 5600 and bump-killed a gridbug. It was
going well but I had already cleared Sokoban and the the upper 10
levels of the main dungeon without finding a ring of polymorph. I was
going to have to start descending below level 10 to find new territory
to search ... scary. Without a polytrap I only had my 2 large cats
and a warhorse for pets.
game 475 ~ amazing start with a ring of polymorph, ring of SD, potion
of holy water and a scroll of scare monster. Died at the hands of a
Guardian Naga Hatchling turned white dragon. I played too hastily and
should have abandoned the level but I wanted to recover my pet
tengu :/ I should have protected the polytrap better, even to the
point of dropping my only scroll of scare monster on it, especially
since I had spare holy water. Die and learn. I really needed that
polytrap for my own pets since I had already cleared down to level 10
in the mines and the main dungeon. I still had the guaranteed ring on
the top level of Sokoban but needed a buff pet to fight the mimics, or
else a stethoscope and some darts to assist my large cats.
One thing I'm learning is that a large cat or dog can only get the
pacifist so far, I need a polytrap to get a better pet before I get
too much below level 10.
Henry J Cobb
> I still had the guaranteed ring on
> the top level of Sokoban but needed a buff pet to fight the mimics, or
> else a stethoscope and some darts to assist my large cats.
Don't bother.
It's worth blowing a few charges on a teleport wand to move them
someplace out of the way.
It's not like they'll wake up and come after you.
-HJC
Carl
themselves and not survive the ensuing melee.
On another note, just lost pacifist conduct by bump-killing a jackal
in a promising game (reroll # 594) where I started with a ring of slow
digestion and a wand of polymorph. Used 2 zaps from the wand to
change starting pet into a golden naga! Fantastic pet, quite
formidable, levels up to 15 without too much problem, and can heal
itself! Made it to turn 92XX with 12 conducts intact. Had acquired
holy water (from a bones), a ring of polymorph, and bag of holding
from Sokoban. Still hadn't found a ring of polymorph control,
though. Better skill next time (I hope)!
Carl
> pacifist so far, I need a polytrap to get a better pet before I get
> too much below level 10.
Tragedy strikes ... Found a polytrap on level 8 and had 4 or 5 pets
_and_ a leash. Unfortunately there was a level teleport trap next to
the polytrap. I thought it would be smart to leash my pet to me and
use up the level teleport trap so that I could start polytrap
dancing. Unfortunately I was sent with my pet black unicorn to LVL 12
(I had only explored down to 9 and then just to test the downstairs).
A lynx made pretty short work of me with my measly 22 hp, AC=0 and no
escape wands. The annoying part is that I had finally (after 600+
rerolls) managed to acquire all 3 needed rings: slow digestion,
polymorph, and poly control. My complementary DYWYPI? informed me of
this posthumously. I had also found a potion shop so would have
benefited from the potions of gain level. :/
I just don't seem to be finding the rings like I was in my 11-conduct
attempts.
Carl
appreciated. Here is the situation:
I just made it with my 12-conduct wizard down to the Oracle and am now
level 3. I have a blessed potion of gain level upstairs and thus will
be at level 4 soon. I'm wearing my starting ring of slow digestion
and have a found wand of polymorph with the engrave charge gone. My
second spell is charm monster and if not clad in metal, I can cast it
at 0% failure. However, I have a current/max int of 16 and thus use
nutrition to cast spells. I have not yet found a ring of polymorph or
poly control. There is also a locked shop on LVL 2 that I will open
at the next opportunity.
Should I:
1) stick with the large cat and explore Sokoban;
2) polymorph my large cat and see what I can get before the wand
expires;
3) charm some monsters and have more friendlies around, never mind the
drain on nutrition;
Any advice welcome! Thanks!
--
C
sjde...@yahoo.com
I'd go #3 _if_ you find something good enough to be pretty confident
clearing soko easily. If not, #2. Now is not the time to conserve
resources; even in a heavy conduct game, you're better off using what
you have earlier and seeing what you get along the way.
Henry J Cobb
I'd go into Sokoban and see what goodies you can find on the first three
levels.
If you can get a magic whistle then consider taking the giant mimics
along with you as speed bumps.
Just remember that just about any food item you carry will turn into a
domestic pet at some point, so it's worth saving zaps for three in a
row. (Pay attention to pets picking up and dropping items.)
I just found a bunch of Orcs in Sokoban and one of them had this real
shiny shield so naturally I got the amulet at the end.
-HJC
Carl
>
Good news! I found a polytrap on the level below the Oracle! So, me
and my pet black dragon are now going into Sokoban ... giant ants,
beware!
That's good advice regarding resource conservation. Not that I won't
be conscientious, but I don't want to die with unused teleport zaps,
etc.
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> > If anyone out there would care to lend some advice it'd be
> > appreciated. Here is the situation:
>
> > I just made it with my 12-conduct wizard down to the Oracle and am now
> > level 3. I have a blessed potion of gain level upstairs and thus will
> > be at level 4 soon. I'm wearing my starting ring of slow digestion
> > and have a found wand of polymorph with the engrave charge gone. My
> > second spell is charm monster and if not clad in metal, I can cast it
> > at 0% failure. However, I have a current/max int of 16 and thus use
> > nutrition to cast spells. I have not yet found a ring of polymorph or
> > poly control. There is also a locked shop on LVL 2 that I will open
> > at the next opportunity.
>
> > Should I:
> > 1) stick with the large cat and explore Sokoban;
> > 2) polymorph my large cat and see what I can get before the wand
> > expires;
> > 3) charm some monsters and have more friendlies around, never mind the
> > drain on nutrition;
>
> I'd go into Sokoban and see what goodies you can find on the first three
> levels.
>
> If you can get a magic whistle then consider taking the giant mimics
> along with you as speed bumps.
That's a clever idea, I wonder how well it would work in practice. In
either case I don't have a magic whistle, and I don't think that I'll
find one before my dragon kills the Sokoban mimics. I was actually
hoping to find a sink for an endless supply of pets, courtesy of charm
monster and my polytrap. This might be a good way to get a good
supply of purple worms.
Does anyone know ... can a polytrap ever turn a monster into an
archon?
>
> Just remember that just about any food item you carry will turn into a
> domestic pet at some point, so it's worth saving zaps for three in a
> row. (Pay attention to pets picking up and dropping items.)
>
> I just found a bunch of Orcs in Sokoban and one of them had this real
> shiny shield so naturally I got the amulet at the end.
>
... that is sometimes the way it goes.
sjde...@yahoo.com
Archons are M2_NOPOLY, so I don't think so.
I had a conversation with marvin once and he recommended balrogs as
among the best available from polytraps. I've had decent luck with
titans but wouldnt' expect them to make it through the planes.
Carl
Okay, thanks.
>
> I had a conversation with marvin once and he recommended balrogs as
> among the best available from polytraps. I've had decent luck with
> titans but wouldnt' expect them to make it through the planes.
I think if one is going to depend on a particular pet then having one
that doesn't eat is important, so I can see why a balrog would be
great, do they tend to survive the planes? A Level 49 purple worm is
great but it can be gone in one turn if it eats a chameleon. Despite
my typical dislike of liches as pets, I can see how for a pacifist one
might be perfect given their ability to heal themselves, teleport to
you, and resist magic. But how well liches would do on the planes, I
do not know given that they are not fire resistant. It's true, titans
are great pets, but they eat so are vulnerable to shapeshifter
corpses.
funcrunch
> Despite
> my typical dislike of liches as pets, I can see how for a pacifist one
> might be perfect given their ability to heal themselves, teleport to
> you, and resist magic. But how well liches would do on the planes, I
> do not know given that they are not fire resistant.
Arch liches are fire resistant. And if you tame or poly-up a lower
level lich, it may grow into an arch eventually. Though the one time I
had one as a pet, it got confused and killed me with touch of death (I
wasn't magic resistant yet...)
- funcrunch
Carl
to: FCsep.
Not too shabby! Fire, cold, sleep, electricity and poison. Too bad
their 5d6 attack is cold based.
I've had similar experiences with liches, and I make it a priority to
give formidable pets a unicorn horn.
Carl
wrote:
[snip]
>
> Anyway, good luck. I admire your patience. Have you worked out how many
> times you can expect to start over just because of the RNG?
>
I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12. Of those 1000, there were 36 games
that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play. At
first I was only playing if I had a ring of slow digestion _and_ one
of: aring of polymorph control, a ring of polymorph, or a wand of
polymorph. Lately though I've been playing if I at least start with a
ring of slow digestion, as I'm getting tired of watching all of these
games go by as "escaped". 12 of my 36 games were quit/suicided from
losing pacifist conduct due to a bump kill. Most of the rest were
just because of the natural hazards of playing as a pacifist: trap
doors, trapped in a corridor, bats, etc. Of those 36 there were only
2 where I acquired all 3 rings that I needed, but I did not know it
until my inventory was identified after death. I'm hoping someday to
survive past turn 17,000 but so far ... not so good!
(My apologies to everyone on NAO for filling up the 'Most Recent Game'
log!)
Topi Linkala
> I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12. Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play. At
> first I was only playing if I had a ring of slow digestion _and_ one
> of: aring of polymorph control, a ring of polymorph, or a wand of
> polymorph. Lately though I've been playing if I at least start with a
> ring of slow digestion, as I'm getting tired of watching all of these
> games go by as "escaped". 12 of my 36 games were quit/suicided from
> losing pacifist conduct due to a bump kill. Most of the rest were
> just because of the natural hazards of playing as a pacifist: trap
> doors, trapped in a corridor, bats, etc. Of those 36 there were only
> 2 where I acquired all 3 rings that I needed, but I did not know it
> until my inventory was identified after death. I'm hoping someday to
> survive past turn 17,000 but so far ... not so good!
This seems like just another game of patience.
Topi 'Mind if I stick collecting all artifacts.' Linkala
--
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
- Bertrand Russell
"How come he didn't put 'I think' at the end of it?" - Anonymous
HanClinto
> I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.
Ouch. Did you lose your game with the pet black dragon? Starting with
=oSD and +oCharm is fantastic, though you're right -- the int 16
really bites hard.
I've been playing pacifist wizards lately, so you totally have my
sympathies!
Please keep us updated -- my current pacifist game just found its
first /oWishing, so I'll probably ascend this one, though afterwards
I'm tempted to attempt a 12-conduct with you.
Looking forward to hearing more from you!
--clint
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> > I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> > 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12. Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> > that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play. At
> > first I was only playing if I had a ring of slow digestion _and_ one
> > of: aring of polymorph control, a ring of polymorph, or a wand of
> > polymorph. Lately though I've been playing if I at least start with a
> > ring of slow digestion, as I'm getting tired of watching all of these
> > games go by as "escaped". 12 of my 36 games were quit/suicided from
> > losing pacifist conduct due to a bump kill. Most of the rest were
> > just because of the natural hazards of playing as a pacifist: trap
> > doors, trapped in a corridor, bats, etc. Of those 36 there were only
> > 2 where I acquired all 3 rings that I needed, but I did not know it
> > until my inventory was identified after death. I'm hoping someday to
> > survive past turn 17,000 but so far ... not so good!
>
> This seems like just another game of patience.
>
true in varying degrees for any game of Nethack. Also, luck will play
a big role, and on top of all of that I'll need to play well.
Carl
> On Jan 8, 2:08 pm, Carl <carlhnel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> > 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.
>
> Ouch. Did you lose your game with the pet black dragon? Starting with
> =oSD and +oCharm is fantastic, though you're right -- the int 16
> really bites hard.
Yes that hero died to a YA_very_SD. I hate losing the good starting
rolls, very annoying. There were 2 good ones that died really close
to each other.
The first one, where I started with a =oSD and +oCharmMonster, I ended
up with a black dragon from a polytrap. Well, I went into Sokoban but
a monster (garter snake under an object) was blocking a boulder in the
bottom level of Soko. So I force bolted the boulder but accidentally
took out 2 boulders instead of just 1. Well, that left me 1 boulder
short and I could not get my black dragon up to Soko level 2.
Although he was next to me, he was trapped in the pit and would fall
back in the moment he got out. I went upstairs and tamed a nymph and
a gnome. Then I tried to get clever and tame 2 monsters at once in
the corridor ... too bad I had not noticed my PW was only 12.
DYWYPI?
In a second good-start-gone-YASD I was clearing out Soko but I fat-
fingered and fell down the pit, so I had to run pet-less to the
upstairs but a monkey followed me and had me trapped on the upstairs,
so I went up but a red mold was blocking the way out of the
downstairs! I waited several thousand turns for my pet to make his
way through Sokoban to free me but he never came around the corner,
though I could hear him.
>
> I've been playing pacifist wizards lately, so you totally have my
> sympathies!
>
> Please keep us updated -- my current pacifist game just found its
> first /oWishing, so I'll probably ascend this one, though afterwards
> I'm tempted to attempt a 12-conduct with you.
Good luck/skill! If you're playing on NAO, I'd like to watch the
ttyrec. Please do try a 12-conduct, this is new territory for me and
I can use any help that I can get. The right anecdote just might
contain the piece of advice that I need.
>
> Looking forward to hearing more from you!
Thanks!
Michiel Helvensteijn
>> Anyway, good luck. I admire your patience. Have you worked out how many
>> times you can expect to start over just because of the RNG?
>>
>
> I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.
That's madness. :-)
If you need to have good starting statistics and equipment, and are willing
to reroll until you get what you need anyway (which is understandable, if
you are attempting a 12-conduct ascension), you might as well hack the game
to give you exactly what you want at the start of the game (within the RNG
reach, of course). Or at least tweak the odds.
Of course, you play on a public server, so you can't really recompile the
code. But maybe servers should support that 'feature'. It's better than
rerolling 1000 games and polluting the 'most recent game' log. But it would
have to be marked as such on the scoreboard, of course.
--
Michiel
Derek Ray
> Of course, you play on a public server, so you can't really recompile the
> code. But maybe servers should support that 'feature'. It's better than
> rerolling 1000 games and polluting the 'most recent game' log. But it would
> have to be marked as such on the scoreboard, of course.
That's a lot of code for a super-rare event (someone trying 12 conducts);
especially since conducts are something you should be doing entirely
within the 'normal' game parameters, which includes tolerating random
starting equipment. Tenaya12's record should reflect that it took him
'n' startscums to obtain the necessary equipment, as well as 'n' tries
once he got that actual equipment -- and it will, so all's fine here.
The 'most recent game' log isn't a problem; NAO's score-announce-bot
routinely ignores any quits or escapes with fewer than 1000 points,
entirely for the purpose of avoiding startscum spam. And of course,
none of the startscums make it onto the top 2,000 list.
(Besides, one advantage of doing it on a public server is that there's a
public record -- and no question that you _did_ do anything like
'arrange' for some fortuitous starting circumstances.)
--
Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com
Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com
IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> >> Anyway, good luck. I admire your patience. Have you worked out how many
> >> times you can expect to start over just because of the RNG?
>
> > I'm still working on a 12-conduct ascension. I just now rerolled my
> > 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12.
>
> That's madness. :-)
Oh, it's not that bad, once I've rerolled 2 or 3 in a row, my fingers
have the muscle memory to repeat the action without having to think it
through.
>
> If you need to have good starting statistics and equipment, and are willing
> to reroll until you get what you need anyway (which is understandable, if
> you are attempting a 12-conduct ascension), you might as well hack the game
> to give you exactly what you want at the start of the game (within the RNG
> reach, of course). Or at least tweak the odds.
Well, I wanted to have it on a public server so that any "luck
modifying actions" will be there for all to see and also in case
someone wants to review the game for their own amusement or
edification. But you have given me an idea ... since I seem to be
doing so badly even with good starting equipment perhaps I need to try
my idea out in wizard mode or at least ascend a low-conduct pacifist
first.
Carl
wrote:
> On 2008-01-14, Michiel Helvensteijn <nom...@please.com> wrote:
>
> > Of course, you play on a public server, so you can't really recompile the
> > code. But maybe servers should support that 'feature'. It's better than
> > rerolling 1000 games and polluting the 'most recent game' log. But it would
> > have to be marked as such on the scoreboard, of course.
>
> That's a lot of code for a super-rare event (someone trying 12 conducts);
> especially since conducts are something you should be doing entirely
> within the 'normal' game parameters, which includes tolerating random
> starting equipment. Tenaya12's record should reflect that it took him
> 'n' startscums to obtain the necessary equipment, as well as 'n' tries
> once he got that actual equipment -- and it will, so all's fine here.
Hopefully, if I ever manage to pull this off, the record will show
that with a not-too-uncommon starting set of equipment, sufficient in-
game luck, and sufficient skill, 12-conducts are possible, even
without finding a bones file.
>
> The 'most recent game' log isn't a problem; NAO's score-announce-bot
> routinely ignores any quits or escapes with fewer than 1000 points,
> entirely for the purpose of avoiding startscum spam. And of course,
> none of the startscums make it onto the top 2,000 list.
>
> (Besides, one advantage of doing it on a public server is that there's a
> public record -- and no question that you _did_ do anything like
> 'arrange' for some fortuitous starting circumstances.)
>
True.
Derek Ray
> On Jan 14, 12:04 pm, Derek Ray <de...@moot.its.only.a.spamtrap.org>
>> 'n' startscums to obtain the necessary equipment, as well as 'n' tries
>> once he got that actual equipment -- and it will, so all's fine here.
> Hopefully, if I ever manage to pull this off, the record will show
> that with a not-too-uncommon starting set of equipment, sufficient in-
> game luck, and sufficient skill, 12-conducts are possible, even
> without finding a bones file.
Sure. It's not unreasonable to predicate a certain set of starting
equipment as being "necessary" for a reasonable chance at something like
12 conducts; but by the same token, it's also good to have the number of
tries it takes to _obtain_ that set of starting equipment reflected as
part of the public record.
Bones files are tricky. I understand your desire to avoid a Conducty
scenario, but at the same time some bones files would be quite capable
of _ending_ a 12-conduct player's game; there's an argument to be made
that both the negative and positive swing of such bones could be
permitted as random chance. (Of course, as soon as you say that you'll
run into some wizard's bones on DL6 who choked on his food while on the
way back up with the Amulet and a full AK, potentially trashing the
experiment in one sense. :)
HanClinto
> 1000th game on NAO as Tenaya12. Of those 1000, there were 36 games
> that I started with sufficient starting gear and tried to play.
> (My apologies to everyone on NAO for filling up the 'Most Recent Game'
> log!)
Don't worry about filling up the most recent game log -- I think their
startscumming filters can handle it just fine.
Just a small note -- I'm still working on my pacifist neutral wizard.
I ran into a problem before the quest trying to work out my alignment.
Somehow my alignment went negative, and I had no means to bring it
positive. All priests in the game (Minetown and Valley) were cross-
aligned, and so were all altars. With negative alignment, I can't
safely try to convert an altar, and then raise my alignment through
cross-aligned unicorn sacs.
I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
could go on the quest.
I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
donations or sacrifices.
You may have already had your alignment boosting planned out, but in
case you hadn't, I thought I'd share this method with you.
Looking forward to hearing more about your progress!
--clint
Carl
Thanks for the tip! That's a nice trick especially given the
challenges associated with being neutral. Fortunately I'll have an
easier time since I'm playing a chaotic. I was hoping for cross-
aligned priests and was going to throw a rock at each for hopefully
+4, then I was going to dig a pit outside of as many shops as I could
find and then teleport out for hopefully another few points (I'm a
wizard and I'll need the cream pies anyway for wielding), then I'll
hopefully get the remainder with foocubi consorting.
>
> Looking forward to hearing more about your progress!
I got tired of dying so quickly/often so I'm taking a break and
working on a Caveman in Spork. Hopefully I'll ascend and feel
refreshed and ready to get back to work on my 12-conduct project.
Carl
wrote:
someone had a pet arch-lich there is not much chance I'll survive
unless I'm quite a ways along in my game. I have not had the
opportunity to need to make any tough decisions on this project yet as
all of the bones files that I have found have been very modest. The
way I'll probably approach it is that if I find a bones file, I'll
keep those items that can be ordinarily found but stow away those
items that seem toolucky(1).
(1) toolucky = a subjective value to be defined later if the
opportunity presents itself :)
Henry J Cobb
> I saved my game and waited a while to think about what to do. I read
> the praying spoiler over and over to find something I could use to
> raise my alignment as a neutral non-healer, until I noticed the bit
> about getting a +2 bonus for angering a non-coaligned priest. Sweet! I
> went down to the Valley (the Minetown priest was already dead), and
> emptied two wands of sleep into him, alternately zapping him (making
> sure to stand *outside* the temple as I did this), and then getting
> next to him and casting Charm Monster until he pacified. This method
> alone was able to take my alignment from negative to +20 so that I
> could go on the quest.
>
> I didn't realize how cool this was until Contra_Duck pointed out that
> this is atheist-conduct acceptable, as it doesn't involve any
> donations or sacrifices.
IIRC you must not chat with them either.
-HJC
Carl
lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
someone knows differently, please let me know.
Topi Linkala
> I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
> lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
> then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
> alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
> someone knows differently, please let me know.
No it doesn't, but that IMHo is a bug. How come your alignment for the
new god can be up when all the time you've done things against her will+
Topi 'Reported as such.' Linkala
Carl
> Carl wrote:
> > I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
> > lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
> > then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
> > alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
> > someone knows differently, please let me know.
>
> No it doesn't, but that IMHo is a bug. How come your alignment for the
> new god can be up when all the time you've done things against her will+
>
Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
but other than that it is a great item. Perhaps when switching
alignment via the helm, the hero's numerical alignment could be rest
to n? Where n=0, maybe?
One of my hopes for my 12-conduct game is to find a helm of opposite
alignment and a longsword (starting as a chaotic), then I'll dip for
Excalibur and have some protection against unpleasant foocubi
experiences.
XyZZy
I think this makes sense, because, to quote one of the spoilers
"you're doing the right thing at the time". so if you're chaotic,
doing chaotic things means you're following your path, and if you
switch to lawful, it still means you followed your proper path (even
though it may not have been very lawful). kind of like a credit
history. if you give up using one bank and switch to another, you
still have the good/bad credit history from the previous one.
Ohle Claussen
> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
> but other than that it is a great item.
That, and you lose all your protection.
> Perhaps when switching
> alignment via the helm, the hero's numerical alignment could be rest
> to n? Where n=0, maybe?
Outside of a pacifist game, alignment doesn't have enough impact to make this
significant, IMO. Yes, that's a fault of the alignment system, not of your
concept.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
"Our nation must come together to unite."
--dubya
Panu Lahtinen
> On 2008-01-18, Carl wrote:
>> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
>> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
>> but other than that it is a great item.
>
> That, and you lose all your protection.
In a 12 conduct game that isn't a problem, as you can't #chat with priests
nor #pray to gain protection. Of course, in a normal game that is a
downside.
--
Panu
"You haven't really been anywhere until you've got back home",
Twoflower in "The Light Fantastic"
Ohle Claussen
> Ohle Claussen wrote:
>> On 2008-01-18, Carl wrote:
>>> Changing alignment via a Helm of Opposite Alignment does seem pretty
>>> lacking in downsides. The auto-cursing requires some consideration
>>> but other than that it is a great item.
>>
>> That, and you lose all your protection.
>
> In a 12 conduct game that isn't a problem, as you can't #chat with priests
> nor #pray to gain protection. Of course, in a normal game that is a
> downside.
Seeing how Carl went on to debate possible gameplay tweaks to "rebalance" the
helm, I didn't think the discussion was restricted to conduct games anymore.
--
Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
----------===========----------
BOFH Excuse #134:
because of network lag due to too many people playing deathmatch
David Damerell
>I may be wrong, but I think another way of increasing alignment as a
>lawful or neutral pacifist is to wear a helm of opposite alignment and
>then have fun as a chaotic for a while. I think that numerical
>alignment is not affected by this type of alignment change, but if
>someone knows differently, please let me know.
That's very true, although tricky if you're trying "naked".
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Friday, January.