Tips for playing with Knight
Immortalist
in Nethack. Now that I made it to Astral Plane with my Valkyrie (not
ascended though) I would like to learn to play with Knight. I have been
trying many times but the most far I have got ended up so that Ixoth
killed me.
ALL kinds of hints are appreciated. Thanks.
Janis Papanagnou
Hmm, I unfortunately cannot give you any specific hint for knights;
actually a knight was my very first ascended character, so I quite
cannot follow your thought why you consider them to be hard to play.
One factor that you may take advantage from the beginning is the
knights inherent ability to jump; it may keep you out of trouble.
Another factor that will keep you alive in the middle game is that
you may dip for Excalibur quite soon; it's a good weapon, and with
its searching ability and conferring level drain resistance good
enough to be your weapon of choice until the endgame.
I think that applying your general experience with other classes
would suffice; use pets, consider to flee instead of fighting, throw
missiles (daggers) from afar, etc. etc.
If you have specific problems with Ixoth, then be better prepared.
Have you enough full healing, maybe boulder shield(?), can you
handle magic curses, etc.? What were your concrete problems with
him? You may use potions of paralysis. I think (though not quite
sure) that wands of sleep and death will also work.
Janis
Immortalist
Janis Papanagnou kirjoitti:
As far as I know you need a five-level character to dip for Excalibur,
my usual luck goes like this: I dip for five fountains, they rust my
sword by one and then dry and then my weapon is too weak for battling
and I die. As for pets I have never found a magic whistle early enough
(or enough leashes)
That Ixoth thing is not a problem; I was just trying him for the first
time and was not too well prepared.
Jove
Okay, I've never played a knight, but I like jumping and hitting
from a distance. (This has been discussed before.)
Knights start with a polearm: the lance, which can be applied from
a distance. Lead tough monsters into a pit or bear trap, then stand
catty corner from them and beat them to death without getting hit
back. Hint: bear traps can be untrapped and reset elsewhere by
applying them. Pits can be dug. Dig one in advance in the first
room you enter on each level. #jump back to it if necessary to
lead the monster to it.
(It's starting to seem unfair, isn't it?)
You can also use pole arms *across* traps. Dig a pit in front
of a doorway, then beat things to death across it. This will
also work across the Fort Ludious and Castle moats. Keep an
eye out for highly enchanted random pole-arms. (So what if you're
not skilled with it?)
Push a boulder in front of an open doorway. Monsters can't
get past, but you can interact with them on the diagonal.
I bet applying your lance counts as interacting.
#adjust your lance to 'a' to make applying it easier: 'aa'.
CTRL-A (to repeat a command) may be helpful as well.
Eels/kraken are much less of a threat from two squares away,
as you beat them to death. Don't know about ochre/blue jellies,
etc.
Knight #jumping can also get you across the Fort Ludious and
Castle moats, after you've killed the inhabitants with your lance,
of course. #jumping will usually (always?) get you across the
Medusa level, after you've killed all the eels/kraken from a
distance with your lance, of course.
#jump some traps safely as well. Unfortunately, knight #jumping
cannot cross the trapdoors in the Castle. Oh yeah, #jumping in
Sokoban destroys your luck.
I also like playing wizards, whose special spell is magic missile.
XL 30 magic missile does 16d6 worth of damage per hit, average of
48 points of damage per *hit*.
+7 Grayswandir against silver hating monsters averages 28 pts of
damage per hit. And it's just one hit at melee range. (If you can
hit the monster with Grayswandir, the monster can hit you.)
And magic missile is a regenerating ranged weapon that can easily
get multiple hits per cast. (Bounce it down a corridor in a maze.)
What does this have to do with knights? Among other things (cf.
infra) the Knight's Quest artifact doubles magic missile damage.
A XL 30 knight, when carrying the Magic Mirror of Merlin
would average 96 pts of damage per hit when casting magic missile.
Get your Int above 18 and you can add 2 points to that: average
98 pts of damage per hit. Average. Per hit.
Of course, that doesn't make you invulnerable:
See msg id: 1137791664.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com
(Recent thread named "vorpal blade".)
See also (post by Kremti):
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/f5a5251740a7acc6?dmode=source&hl=en>
A couple of selected quotes:
"Jumping is a good way to run away in the early game. Cute.
Watch me hop away from those mob of monsters..."
"Lance and jousting is also great in the early-mid game. Jousting adds
2d10 to your damage according to the spoiler, and it's a huge bonus in
the early game. Then, jousting pushback becomes valuable when the
monsters get a bit bigger and they don't die to the first jousting hit
since lance can attack from 2 squares away. I've had many occasions
where I hit a monster at 2 squares away, monster move in, joust it
back, and hit it again from 2 squares away, never letting the monster
actually attack. Also the fact that the lance distance attack doesn't
have to be a straight line can made to work with the shopkeeper and
monster at the door."
I believe in that last paragraph Kremti is referring to 'a'pplying
the lance at a distance, as well as jousting.
While a lance can be broken while jousting, I don't believe a
lance will break while being 'a'pplied. (This has been mentioned
before, but I don't recall it being confirmed or denied.)
Between knight #jumping and applying the lance at a distance, early
knights should do a good job of hitting without getting hit back.
Knights get speed at XL 7:
Normal speed is 12
Fast/"gift of speed" is 15
Very fast (potion/boots/spell) is 18
A mounted knight gets the speed of his mount:
pony is speed 16
horse is speed 20
warhorse is speed 24
And horselike pets can benefit from wands of speed monster.
And even knight #jumping lets you travel twice as fast.
I believe a mounted knight can still #jump: speed AND traveling.
The knight's special #jumping ability does burn nutrition.
(Averages 3.5 jumps per apple/pear. 60 jumps per food ration).
So use jumping sparingly, although you can try #praying for
nutrition in an emergency. (And I don't think you have to be
mounted to #jump, so you can jump around your steed, letting it
attack while you're applying your lance.)
From (a post of mine. Topi Linkala pointed out the nutrition
cost of #jumping):
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/5f861141e496287f?dmode=source&hl=en>
Averaging 13 points of nutrition per knight jump means an 800
nutrition point food ration gives 800/13 = 61 jumps per food
ration. That seems plenty for killing a number of monsters
by jumping while jousting. (I say killing instead of fighting,
because if you're hitting a monster that can't hit you back,
it's not really fighting, is it. :-)
Apples/carrots have 50 nutrition, which averages 3.8
jumps, enough to get out of most emergency situations.
(To put that into perspective, a fortune cookie has 40!)
NB 50 points of nutrition won't keep your steed alive that
much longer. Save these to tame new steeds later in the game
when you can use the relatively more plentiful food rations
to keep them alive.
A food ration will keep your steed alive 800/50 = 16 times
longer than an apple/carrot.
Knights start with:
10 to 20 uncursed apples
10 to 20 uncursed carrots
Which gives average nutrition of: ((15 + 15)*50)/800 =
(30*50)/800 = 1500/800 = 15/8 = 1.875 food ration equivalents.
Since jumping takes resources (nutrition), (like magic uses
mana, wands use charges, scrolls/potions get used up) it should
only be used when appropriate.
Knight's Quest Artifact:
The Magic Mirror of Merlin
(lawful Knight mirror)
Carried
Confers magic resistance and telepathy.
Knights get double damage when: turning undead in any way; using
^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
a spell of force bolt, magic missile, unskilled/basic cone of
cold, or drain life; or using a wand of striking.
The spell of magic missile gives [(XL/2) + 1] d6 worth of damage
per *hit*.
An XL 30 knight would get:
[(30/2) + 1] * d6 * 2
(15 + 1) * d6 * 2
16 * 2 * d6
32 * d6 = min of 32, max of 192, *average* of 96
NB: +7 Grayswandir against silver hating monsters only
averages 28 pts of damage. And you only get one hit per
turn with Grayswandir. And Grayswandir can only hit at
melee range.
If the knight with the MMoM stays at XL 14, they only(?)
average 48 pts of damage per hit with the magic missile
spell.
(FWIW: Get your Int above 18 and add 2 points to your average
damage with the magic missile spell.)
Summary:
- Save starting food to tame more steeds.
- Pets of the horse ilk will eat food rations when hungry enough.
- Be very careful about monitoring steed hunger.
- #jump and 'a'pply the lance to hit without being hit.
(and keep your lance safe from breaking).
- Mounted knight gets speed of his mount. Even a pony has
speed 16. A fast human is speed 15. Knights below XL 7
are speed 12.
- Magic missile spell with the Magic Mirror of Merlin does
insane amounts of damage.
- Knight on a warhorse has speed 24 - speed boots are (just)
speed 18. Use a wand of speed monster on the warhorse and
be even faster.
- add #jumping to a hasted warhorse and travel insanely fast.
- You start with a saddle. What monsters can be ridden.
--
Nethack IS easy, if you play it the right way.
Try killing things from a distance.
All the best,
Jove
Janis Papanagnou
> Janis Papanagnou kirjoitti:
>
>>Another factor that will keep you alive in the middle game is that
>>you may dip for Excalibur quite soon; it's a good weapon, and with
>>its searching ability and conferring level drain resistance good
>>enough to be your weapon of choice until the endgame.
>
Yes, that's right. I assumed, since you seem to have met Ixoth a couple
of times, that you are proficient enough to reach level five quite easy.
To meet yout quest nemesis you must be at least level 14!
> my usual luck goes like this: I dip for five fountains, they rust my
> sword by one and then dry and then my weapon is too weak for battling
> and I die.
Hmm.., then avoid battles until you succeed. One key factor, or rather,
*the* key factor for fighter classes is obtaining an artifact weapon as
fast as possible, IMO. Or carry and use a spare weapon for that purpose.
> As for pets I have never found a magic whistle early enough
> (or enough leashes)
That's not necessary to have. Wait until they come adjacent to descend
the stairs; that's not as convenient as a magic whistle but the usual
way. The harder part is to keep your pets alive. 8-o
> That Ixoth thing is not a problem; I was just trying him for the first
> time and was not too well prepared.
Well, o.k., the first time is mostly a surprise. ;-)
Janis
Daniel Morris
"Immortalist" <sir_kil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1138132661.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
One thing to try when starting knights that I like to do is to go to Sokoban
first, Fighting my way to the oracle level trying to reach it around the
time I hit level 5. Unless it's a bones level you'll find at least four
fountains there. With a bit of luck one of those four will lead to the
sword swap. (more times than not, it does)
Unless bigroom is next i'll run through sokoban at this point, making sure
not to #jump while there (luck penalty) By this time I will have a decent
supply of food, a few wands and either the "oR or Bag. A good time to head
for minetown.
Happy Hacking
Danny
Little White Mouse
> beat them to death without getting hit back....
> then beat things to death across it....
> I bet applying your lance counts as interacting. [ i.e., beat things to
> death ]...
> Eels/kraken are much less of a threat from two squares away,
> after you've killed the inhabitants with your lance, of course....
> after you've killed all the eels/kraken from a distance with your lance,
[snip rest of ways knights can beat things to death]
Wow. Just. Wow. That's a Knight FAQ right there! I've never thought to
play a knight - never wanted to, really. But now... Hmm.... I could
beat things to death from 2 squares away...
--LWM
Jove
wrote:
You don't have to be a knight to do that. Knights start with
#jumping and a polearm, but anyone can find a non-cursed polearm
and/or boots/spell of jumping.
Krysia's Krusader, unspoiled and determined to stay that way,
playing an elven ranger, fell in love with pole arms.
He used one to clear the Castle. He let a wimpy monster get
next to him in a passage, then proceeded to kill the monsters on
the other side of it with his polearm.
Eit_brad used a polearm to kill Death over & over again without
risk to himself, and made the highest possible score.
Derived from: <http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/weap-343.txt>
The following table was partially derived from Tables 1 & 2:
WEAPON APPEARANCE | SDAM SAVG |LDAM |LAVG | WGT |WGT/DMG|
| | | | |(apprx)|
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------+ ~~~~ ~~~~ +~~~~~+~~~~ +-----+-------+
Polearm | | | | | |
partisan vulgar | d6 3.5 |d6+1 | 4.5 | 80 | 20 |
fauchard pole sickle | d6 3.5 |d8 | 4.5 | 60 | 15 |
glaive (naginata) single-edged | d6 3.5 |d10 | 5.5 | 75 | 19 |
bec-de-corbin beaked | d8 4.5 |d6 | 3.5 | 100 | 25 |
spetum forked | d6+1 4.5 |2d6 | 7.0 | 50 | 9 |
lucern hammer pronged | 2d4 5.0 |d6 | 3.5 | 150 | 35 |
guisarme pruning hook | 2d4 5.0 |d8 | 4.5 | 80 | 16 |
ranseur hilted | 2d4 5.0 |2d4 | 5.0 | 50 | 10 |
voulge pole cleaver | 2d4 5.0 |2d4 | 5.0 | 125 | 25 |
bill-guisarme hooked | 2d4 5.0 |d10 | 5.5 | 120 | 23 |
bardiche long poleaxe | 2d4 5.0 |3d4 | 7.5 | 120 | 19 |
halberd angled poleaxe | d10 5.5 |2d6 | 7.0 | 150 | 24 |
The spetum (forked) and ranseur (hilted) at weight 50
look like the best weight/damage ratio, roughly 10.
And there are no lighter polearms.
The spetum averaging 7.0 pts of damage against large animals
rivals the bardiche (7.5) and the halberd (7.0), and they weigh
over twice as much.
For weight comparison, a pickaxe weights 100, so does a stack
of 10 daggers.
Perhaps the best news is that no polearm costs over 10 zorkmids.
Character class skill limits:
WEAPON ABCH KMPRaRo STVW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~
Polearm : --sb s-ss b sbss
Skills may be less important, because when properly used a polearm
lets you hurt the enemy without getting hit back.
Or you could just throw rocks. (When you see a floating eye,
rock its world.)
BManx2000
> Character class skill limits:
>
> WEAPON ABCH KMPRaRo STVW
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~
> Polearm : --sb s-ss b sbss
>
>
> Skills may be less important, because when properly used a polearm
> lets you hurt the enemy without getting hit back.
Actually, skills do matter a bit. At basic or unskilled, you can only
hit these squares when applying (marked by asterisks):
..*..
.....
*.@.*
.....
..*..
At skilled, you can hit these squares:
.***.
*...*
*.@.*
*...*
.***.
And at expert in Lance (knights only), you can hit these squares:
*****
*...*
*.@.*
*...*
*****
Doug Freyburger
>
> Knights start with
> #jumping and a polearm, but anyone can find a non-cursed polearm
> and/or boots/spell of jumping.
Since trolls often start with a polearm, it just becomes a matter
of time before you've faced enough trolls to be sure of getting
one. I think trolls have a 50% chance of getting a polearm, and
they cycle among 4 types. The ones I remember are the glaive
(because pictures of them look cool to me) and spetum
(discussed below).
> Krysia's Krusader, unspoiled and determined to stay that way,
> playing an elven ranger, fell in love with pole arms.
>
> He used one to clear the Castle. He let a wimpy monster get
> next to him in a passage, then proceeded to kill the monsters on
> the other side of it with his polearm.
>
> Eit_brad used a polearm to kill Death over & over again without
> risk to himself, and made the highest possible score.
Note that a polearm used adjacent sucks. It even warns you that
you have begun hitting monsters with the stick part. Always have
a reasonable melee weapon to switch to while using a polearm.
So in the end I've concluded that the spetum beats all other
polearm types. I'll only use other types to build skill. The
first spetum I find I ditch all other polearms and since spetums
become common after killing a couple dozen trolls, I expect
to have one before Medusa.
> Perhaps the best news is that no polearm costs over 10 zorkmids.
Which reflects the fact that its usefullness requires a lot
of thought and learning. The prices are well thought through
so when you discover the price of something think hard on
why its price is so high or low. Maybe the DevTeam decided
to make them a pain in the butt to use so kept their price low.
> Character class skill limits:
> WEAPON ABCH KMPRaRo STVW
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ : ~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~
> Polearm : --sb s-ss b sbss
>
> Skills may be less important, because when properly used a polearm
> lets you hurt the enemy without getting hit back.
Skilled or better gives much better adaptability. So I'll only
build skill with a character class that can acheive Skilled
otherwise I'll leave polearms behind.