What to wish for?
pascal
I started playing nethack some weeks ago, and I'm still a noob. I'm in this
game a Valkyirie, went through the mines, got a luckstone, and just finished
Sokoban, where I found the AoR. I have a blessed magic lamp, and I wonder how to
use the possible wish: having reflection I could wish for a blessed GDSM, but
my problem is that I have teleportitis (did not see it happen...) and no
teleport control. What do you think i should go for? Would it be a waste to
whish for ring of teleport control ?
David Damerell
>use the possible wish: having reflection I could wish for a blessed GDSM, but
>my problem is that I have teleportitis (did not see it happen...) and no
>teleport control. What do you think i should go for? Would it be a waste to
>whish for ring of teleport control ?
Teleportitis is likely to be annoying. No MR or poor AC is much more
likely to be fatal. Go for the GDSM.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
If we aren't perfectly synchronised this corncob will explode!
Today is Second Brieday, December.
Tomorrow will be Second Gouday, December.
pascal
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> a écrit:
> Quoting pascal <lepas...@gmail.com>:
> >use the possible wish: having reflection I could wish for a blessed GDSM,
> >but my problem is that I have teleportitis (did not see it happen...) and no
> >teleport control. What do you think i should go for? Would it be a waste to
> >whish for ring of teleport control ?
>
> Teleportitis is likely to be annoying. No MR or poor AC is much more
> likely to be fatal. Go for the GDSM.
Well, I copy-pasted "a blessed greased +2 dragon scale male" at the prompt for
the whish from the djinni, and thought "let's ask for +3 instead", so I tried
to move the cursor to change +2 to +3 and BLAM, the left arrow key is mapped to
showing the armor. I lost my whish. And to be humorous the RNG is putting a
blob, a light and a floating eye side by side, saying " bye " ...
See here : http://omploader.org/vMzQwYw
pascal
Jukka Lahtinen <jtfj...@hotmail.com.invalid> a écrit:
> Umm, where did you copy something that weird from?
> First, you shouldn't wish for "male" unless you're female or homosexual
> yourself, and even if you are, you probably won't get one :-)
>
> "blessed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail" would have been better.
Yeah, I mispelled it in this email, but not in game.
> So, sorry but there were three reasons to qualify this as YASD.
>
Yep, I came to YASD, having to start over again, and again, and again...
Janis Papanagnou
>
> [...] And to be humorous the RNG is putting a
> blob, a light and a floating eye side by side, saying " bye " ...
> See here : http://omploader.org/vMzQwYw
Nice one :-)
You should consider, though, since you're playing in text mode, to
post the copy/pasted ASCII text fragment here, instead of creating
an image to access from some server. (Next time.)
Janis
JoaoSantos
wrote:
> [...]
> Second, I'm not sure what happens if you leave the color out, whether you
> get a random colored one or something copletely random..
> [...]
> Jukka Lahtinen
I remember one my first wishes, when I was mostly unspoiled, was a
"dragon scale mail", and I got a black one.
solidsnail
James Of Tucson
My opinion is that the permanent light source is itself worth a wish.
But in that situation,
I definitely would wish for a ring of teleport control.
Janis Papanagnou
>
> My opinion is that the permanent light source is itself worth a wish.
You cannot wish for a magic lamp, unfortunately. So that means you
would wish for the Sunsword artifact? It has a very limited range of
light, but is useful anyway. (The monk's quest artifact glasses are
not an option generally.)
Janis
James Of Tucson
wrote:
> James Of Tucson wrote:
>
> > My opinion is that the permanent light source is itself worth a wish.
>
> You cannot wish for a magic lamp, unfortunately. So that means you
> would wish for the Sunsword artifact?
No, it means I'd forgo the wish and just keep the lamp, which is what
I usually end up doing.
Mind you, this is *always* a *very* difficult choice.
Doug Freyburger
Cursed magic lamp from a bones file. Cross-aligned altar in mine town.
No other altars in the game for a bunch of levels in the main dungeon.
There are games when the choice to keep the lamp stays easy for a while.
;^)
Janis Papanagnou
>
> No, it means I'd forgo the wish and just keep the lamp, which is what
> I usually end up doing.
> Mind you, this is *always* a *very* difficult choice.
I tend to delay using a single instance of a magic lamp exactly for
having that valuable light, hoping that I'll find what I need deeper
down in the dungeons, thus sparing that wish as well. I rarely used
that wish from a single magic lamp in my games, maybe once or twice
in the last years.
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
> James Of Tucson wrote:
>> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> James Of Tucson wrote:
>>>> My opinion is that the permanent light source is itself worth a wish.
>>> You cannot wish for a magic lamp, unfortunately. So that means you
>>> would wish for the Sunsword artifact?
>> No, it means I'd forgo the wish and just keep the lamp, which is what
>> I usually end up doing.
>> Mind you, this is *always* a *very* difficult choice.
>
> Cursed magic lamp from a bones file. Cross-aligned altar in mine town.
> No other altars in the game for a bunch of levels in the main dungeon.
> There are games when the choice to keep the lamp stays easy for a while.
> ;^)
Finding a magic lamp, whether cursed or not, is always a big win.
If you want it as light source you can use it as it is. If you want
the wish you need to be a bit more creative to bless the lamp, but
even in your scenario (which seems to be not too uncommon from my
perspective) it's possible to achieve that in several ways.
Janis
David Damerell
>No, it means I'd forgo the wish and just keep the lamp, which is what
>I usually end up doing.
I always used to do that, but rast convinced me this was wrong-headed if
you are lacking some important piece of equipment such as a DSM. The lack
of it will kill you; in the early game it is rare to be stuck without
temporary light _and_ in dark levels _and_ with nowhere else to go - _and_
you'd probably do better to take the extra chance of running into
something at point-blank range in return for being in a DSM when it
happens.
Of course saving the permanent light source is _nice_ for the late game
but "nice" won't save your life. If you're a decent player and you make it
to the late game, you're home free anyway.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
If we aren't perfectly synchronised this corncob will explode!
Today is Second Chedday, December - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Second Stilday, December - a weekend.
Janis Papanagnou
> Quoting James Of Tucson <james0...@gmail.com>:
>> No, it means I'd forgo the wish and just keep the lamp, which is what
>> I usually end up doing.
>
> I always used to do that, but rast convinced me this was wrong-headed if
> you are lacking some important piece of equipment such as a DSM. The lack
> of it will kill you; in the early game it is rare to be stuck without
> temporary light _and_ in dark levels _and_ with nowhere else to go - _and_
> you'd probably do better to take the extra chance of running into
> something at point-blank range in return for being in a DSM when it
> happens.
>
> Of course saving the permanent light source is _nice_ for the late game
> but "nice" won't save your life. If you're a decent player and you make it
> to the late game, you're home free anyway.
This is certainly right what you say. The problem is; you rarely get the
magic lamp when you expect it. If you're getting it early you probably
don't yet know whether MR, PR, or Reflection would be the most necessary
property to survive[*]. So I'd delay it as long as necessary and possible.
[*] There's a priority on the time scale (first PR, then Refl., last MR),
if you consider probabilities when bad things typically appear or happen.
Only considering an abstract probability is not helpful for such decisions
if a golden naga kills you early on, or a shot from a wand out of the dark.
As I said, the circumstances of the specific game should be considered and
using a wish in advance generally won't solve the problems the RNG chooses
to confront you with.
Post-castle you don't need the wish from a lamp any more, as you say. It's
always a trade-off whether you decide to use the 80% wish from a magic
lamp or not in the early/mid game, and it's depending on what other items
you've got to hande situations. Anyway, usually a magic lamp is one of
the items I'm lacking, and thus I have rarely the necessity to make that
decision. Often I am even lacking an ordinary lamp, and any light source
(including a random magic lamp) would increase survivability in dark areas.
For other missing items/properties you have other sources to potentially
get them from, too.
OTOH, an early successful wish can solve many problems at once; a wish for
GDSM/SDSM will also provide AC besides either MR or Refl. and alleviate any
burdening issue as well. Again depending on what you are, what you already
have, and what you find in any actual game; if you've found tons of good
armor and a BoH you don't need the additional properties that necessary.
Either way it's always a trade-off, and the decision should always be made
consciously.
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
> [...]
>
> OTOH, an early successful wish can solve many problems at once; a wish for
> GDSM/SDSM will also provide AC besides either MR or Refl. and alleviate any
> burdening issue as well.
...and support spellcasting.
> [...]
>
> Janis
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>I always used to do that, but rast convinced me this was wrong-headed if
>>you are lacking some important piece of equipment such as a DSM.
>magic lamp when you expect it. If you're getting it early you probably
>don't yet know whether MR, PR, or Reflection would be the most necessary
>property to survive[*].
I know that argument from when I get the wrong Sokoban having already
wished for reflection, but I disagree. Optimising the AK later must be
discarded for optimising survival now, and what is likely to kill me very
early is not the lack of PR, MR, or reflection but simply being hit. In
particular, with a good AC, the danger of a deadly poisoning is
inherently reduced.
So if I don't have a DSM, I'm wishing for a DSM, please. Whether it's grey
or silver - or green - well, that depends on the situation at present.
If I do have a DSM, well, then I'll think twice, but in practice I'm still
going to burn the wish to fill another resistance hole. I only might hold
off if the hole is reflection and I know the end of Sokoban is coming up.
>[*] There's a priority on the time scale (first PR, then Refl., last MR),
I do not agree with this ordering, because for all deadly poisonings (or
stat loss downward spirals) are vexing, they ain't all that common.
>decision. Often I am even lacking an ordinary lamp, and any light source
>(including a random magic lamp) would increase survivability in dark areas.
Yes, but... I think, not as much as a DSM does. You get caught more but it
hurts less.
Janis Papanagnou
> Quoting Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com>:
> If I do have a DSM, well, then I'll think twice, but in practice I'm still
> going to burn the wish to fill another resistance hole.
But there are so many resistances that you're lacking in the early game.
How would you know whether you need fire resistance early because a bunch
of fire ants set you on fire? (Just to name one resistance that I usually
get after I meet my first fire ants. Similar with all other resistances.)
>> [*] There's a priority on the time scale (first PR, then Refl., last MR),
>
> I do not agree with this ordering, because for all deadly poisonings (or
> stat loss downward spirals) are vexing, they ain't all that common.
The problem with poison is immense, compared to the other ones; first the
spiked poisoned pits, then the orcs with poisonous arrows, and last but not
least killer bees and soldier ants. All threats appear fairly early in the
game. Pits hit you just by exloring the dungeon, orcs kill you with arrow
attacks even from distance, and the bees and ants swarm you with accumulated
damage if you fail to escape or successfully write some defensive words.
>> decision. Often I am even lacking an ordinary lamp, and any light source
>> (including a random magic lamp) would increase survivability in dark areas.
>
> Yes, but... I think, not as much as a DSM does. You get caught more but it
> hurts less.
No argument here if some random wish (fountain or potion, or a random wand)
is available. We disagree in using those rare very useful magic lamps that,
even if they happen to be blessed - holy water is not always available -,
do not even provide a guaranteed wish.
Janis
Ray Kulhanek
Even if you don't want to wish for DSM until you know what kind you'll
be going for in the long run, there are other wishes that increase
your odds of reaching that point more than the lamp itself does.
Speed boots, Magicbane for E-Word at will, or just an "oLS to give
one-off protection against all the instant deaths until you find the
appropriate resistances. Another thing to consider is that your odds
of getting an artifact you wish for are a lot higher in the early
game; usually my first or second wish goes for the Eye of the
Aethiopica (alignment permitting). Magic resistance, a perpetual
escape item, and a shortcut to your stash all in one. And once you've
got MR from the Eye, if you get another lamp eventually, SDSM is an
obvious choice.
David Damerell
>>going to burn the wish to fill another resistance hole.
>But there are so many resistances that you're lacking in the early game.
So I'll pick the one that I think is mostly likely to kill me.
>>I do not agree with this ordering, because for all deadly poisonings (or
>>stat loss downward spirals) are vexing, they ain't all that common.
>The problem with poison is immense, compared to the other ones; first the
>spiked poisoned pits, then the orcs with poisonous arrows, and last but not
>least killer bees and soldier ants. All threats appear fairly early in the
>game.
But not actually all that often before an opportunity to get PR turns up.
You can see this from the NAO scorefile.
I certainly think I'm more likely to get toasted with a random wand for
lack of reflection.
>>>decision. Often I am even lacking an ordinary lamp, and any light source
>>>(including a random magic lamp) would increase survivability in dark areas.
>>Yes, but... I think, not as much as a DSM does. You get caught more but it
>>hurts less.
>is available. We disagree in using those rare very useful magic lamps that,
>even if they happen to be blessed - holy water is not always available -,
>do not even provide a guaranteed wish.
There's some distraction there - obviously this discussion only applies
when the lamp can be blessed, and we can both multiply by 4/5 to assess
the value of the possible DSM - but let's not forget, wish or no wish, you
still get an oil lamp's worth of light. The idea that you will be
blundering around dark Mines levels because you burned the magic lamp will
not hold up.
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is First Oneiros, January.
Tomorrow will be First Mania, January.
David Damerell
>Even if you don't want to wish for DSM until you know what kind you'll
>be going for in the long run,
The rest of what you write is good, but let's be clear... if you're
holding off wishing for a DSM because you might want a different one in
the AK, give yourself a slap and wish for a DSM. :-)
Janis Papanagnou
>> spiked poisoned pits, then the orcs with poisonous arrows, and last but not
>> least killer bees and soldier ants. All threats appear fairly early in the
>> game.
>
> But not actually all that often before an opportunity to get PR turns up.
> You can see this from the NAO scorefile.
You're right. I inspected the 3.4.3 entries from some older NAO file (from
Feb. 2007) that I have on my disk and the results[*] support what you say:
Level Poison Wand
1 26 181
2 27 329
3 46 367
4 91 323
5 150 341
6 99 324
7 80 222
8 35 134
9 22 75
10 12 49
11 10 48
12 7 38
13 2 14
14 2 11
15 0 5
16 0 9
17 3 8
18 2 8
19 1 14
20 0 10
21 0 11
22 1 8
23 0 3
24 0 1
25 0 0
[*] I hope the two conditions that I checked cover the two cases:
Poison: /poison/ && !/corpse/
Wand: /bolt of/ || /death ray/ || /magic missile/
Some inherent caveats still apply to those numbers. But basically I stand
corrected.
> I certainly think I'm more likely to get toasted with a random wand for
> lack of reflection.
Janis