Book of Openings - The Protection Racket
Nigel Chapman
players do) from seeing the opening ideas of some of more experienced
players. The 'NetHack Book of Openings' could easily be assembled from
the favorite ploys of list members. Perhaps a subsequent volume, the
'NetHack Book of Challenges' could then outline the various
exhibitionist challenges (pacifist, extinctionist, etc) that amuse the
more sophisticated.
Here, then, is 'The Protection Racket', my starting contribution to the
Book of Openings. Been having a lot of fun with this lately, since
seeing the idea mentioned in somebody's Ascension posting. I'm sure
there are plenty of others out there.
-- + --
opening: The Protection Racket
classification: dungeon-diving, temporary pacifism
recommend: archaeologist, wizard / gnome
concept:
At experience level 1, it only takes 400 gold donated to a priest to
give you an increase in divine protection, reducing your base (naked)
AC. There's *always* a priest in the Gnomish mine town, so can you get
there without getting more than 19 experience points (set the showexp
option), but with about 3200 gold?
strategies (by class):
Any: Get your pet to kill everything, naturally. Unwield your weapon,
so you don't accidentally kill things by mistake. (You'll have a large
cat/dog/warhorse by the time you reach the mine town. This means you'll
probably also your pick of the guard's armor.) The main danger is that
you or your pet will die early through a freak accident (gas spore,
falling rock trap), or that you will be separated from your pet
(trapdoor, level teleport trap). Playing gnomes gives you an easier run
through the mines.
Wiz: Wizards can get a pretty decent pet to start with, if they have a
wand of polymorph (and they don't fry the kitten with it by freak
accident). This is worth a few restarts to get set up. An uber-pet
will mean you collect all of the shopkeeper's gold on the way down, and
from the mine town itself. This can be bad when the pet (eventually)
goes feral and must be disposed of, but it very quickly gets you set up.
Arc: Archaeologists can ID gemstones on sight, and so can sell the gems
they'll (probably) find in the mines on the way down. The general store
in the mine town will buy up to about 3500 worth, enough to pay the
priest with.
notes:
1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving directly to the
mine town and seeing if you find a magic lamp there before deciding
whether or not to continue the game.
2. Because you're only level 1, the monsters are pretty easy for your
medium-to-large pet to deal with on the way down.
-- + --
Blessyazzall,
--
N i g e l C h a p m a n
Chi
>opening: The Protection Racket
>classification: dungeon-diving, temporary pacifism
>recommend: archaeologist, wizard / gnome
Healer. Healer's perform The Protection Racket (tm) arguably the best
because of all the !oH/EH that can be quaffed for initial HP. Plus they
start with +oH. Plus they are rich.
My current tactic is go pacifist until minetown if possible... when I am
ready to #pray for the first time (usually for nutrition) I will kick a
wall to drop to 5 HP (healers start with 13HP, and if you have less than
15HP at XL1, if you pray for healing you will *gain* d4 max HP). Then I
quaff any blessed !oEH I have. I try to save the uncursed !oH/EH for
later (if I can find/make) some holy water, but thats just personal (I'm
trying a wishless, genoless, polyless healer who hasn't gained levels
from any means than monster killing if possible (maybe a !oGL or two if
I am having problems reaching XL.14 for the quest). You can end up with
a maximum of 36HP using this tactic if a) the H is generated with the
max 2 blessed !oEH and b) you pray for HP twice... once gives you 1 HP
(taking you to 14) and the next taking you to 18. Quaff all the potions
(4 x !oH = +4HP, 2 x u!oEH = +4HP, 2 x b!oEH = +10HP).
>concept:
>
>At experience level 1, it only takes 400 gold donated to a priest to
>give you an increase in divine protection, reducing your base (naked)
>AC. There's *always* a priest in the Gnomish mine town, so can you get
>there without getting more than 19 experience points (set the showexp
>option), but with about 3200 gold?
Probably with more as a H. No need to have a killer pet, just accrue
lots of credit in shops (use your pet to steal the gold off the floor)
and repeatedly buy/sell till the shopkeeper is destitute!
>strategies (by class):
>
>Any: Get your pet to kill everything, naturally. Unwield your weapon,
>so you don't accidentally kill things by mistake. (You'll have a large
>cat/dog/warhorse by the time you reach the mine town. This means you'll
>probably also your pick of the guard's armor.) The main danger is that
>you or your pet will die early through a freak accident (gas spore,
>falling rock trap), or that you will be separated from your pet
>(trapdoor, level teleport trap). Playing gnomes gives you an easier run
>through the mines.
I agree with all this. Playing any Lawful will make the mines much
easier.
>Wiz: Wizards can get a pretty decent pet to start with, if they have a
>wand of polymorph (and they don't fry the kitten with it by freak
>accident). This is worth a few restarts to get set up. An uber-pet
I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people feel the same.
If I find a /oP (and I have twice in games using this strategy) I will
convert my pet to an Uberpet (actually, I will wait till a kitten is
randomly generated, tame it with food and poly that. That way if it
dies fro a system shock I'm not completely screwed).
>Arc: Archaeologists can ID gemstones on sight, and so can sell the gems
>they'll (probably) find in the mines on the way down. The general store
>in the mine town will buy up to about 3500 worth, enough to pay the
>priest with.
_If_ the general store is generated.
>notes:
>
>1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving directly to the
>mine town and seeing if you find a magic lamp there before deciding
>whether or not to continue the game.
I don't ever do this either. I will escape the dungeon if I think I
have screwed a character beyond redemption (losing a pet early if trying
for pacifist etc.), but I don't quit because of finding/not finding
equipment.
>2. Because you're only level 1, the monsters are pretty easy for your
>medium-to-large pet to deal with on the way down.
But if they get to you, you don't have many HP... so a random monster
with an attack wand will make a nasty mess of your character (recent
losses have ALL been to monsters with wands... as /oF, a fire horn, a
/oCold, and the most recent and annoying: a /oLightning... grr).
Regards,
Chris.
Chi
> [..] (healers start with 13HP, and if you have less than
>15HP at XL1, if you pray for healing you will *gain* d4 max HP). Then I
Doh... my apologies. I mean d5 to max HP.
Must... proof-read... my... posts...
Regards,
Chris.
Nigel Chapman
> I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people feel the
> same.
I recommend it for new players, however, who may need all the help
they can get if they haven't read (or don't want to read) the spoilers
yet.
Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts is more in
keeping with the games very lifelike randomness.
Still, because it is so easy to script a restart down to only 5-8
keystrokes (*NIX / PC), playing without restarts must be called a
voluntary challenge, whatever most people may feel about it.
eg. on a PC, make w.bat as eg. "nethack -uMy_Name -A -r Gnome". Then
"ALT-Q y q w <cr> n m" to restart with these options. Or just set the
options in the default.nh file for even quicker startups.
> >1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving directly to the
> >mine town and seeing if you find a magic lamp there before deciding
> >whether or not to continue the game.
>
> I don't ever do this either.
As above, I think it's good for starting players. Of course,
beginning from the command line with the -X option for explore mode
will achieve the educational goals a whole lot more effectively --
since they get a wand of wishing and they can't be killed.
--
N i g e l C h a p m a n -- phone: +61 2 9586 4779, icq: 3684 1196
_______________________________________________________________________
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Tina Hall
> Chi wrote:
>
> > I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people
> > feel the same.
>
> I recommend it for new players, however, who may need all the
> help they can get if they haven't read (or don't want to
> read) the spoilers yet.
If they get used to starting with good equipment, how are they
supposed to learn to go on without?
If you advertise cheating, you might as well recommend save-
scumming.
> Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts is
> more in keeping with the games very lifelike randomness.
It's part of the rules of the game. If it wasn't, there would be
auto-reroll available.
> Still, because it is so easy to script a restart down to only
> 5-8 keystrokes (*NIX / PC), playing without restarts must be
> called a voluntary challenge, whatever most people may feel
> about it.
Whatever you might feel about it, it still must be called
cheating, IMAO.
It's also easy to save-scum on a PC.
> eg. on a PC, make w.bat as eg. "nethack -uMy_Name -A -r
> Gnome". Then "ALT-Q y q w <cr> n m" to restart with these
> options. Or just set the options in the default.nh file for
> even quicker startups.
That's the long way round, with everything set in the defaults.nh
and a n.bat, it's 'n [enter] i [esc] ALT-q y [esc]'
> > >1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving
> > >directly to the mine town and seeing if you find a magic
> > >lamp there before deciding whether or not to continue the
> > >game.
> >
> > I don't ever do this either.
>
> As above, I think it's good for starting players. Of course,
> beginning from the command line with the -X option for
> explore mode will achieve the educational goals a whole lot
> more effectively -- since they get a wand of wishing and they
> can't be killed.
And that's what it's there for.
Don't get me wrong, people may cheat however much they like, it's
their time, but I can't take an ascension after cheating serious.
It's useful to learn about the game but nothing more.
--
Bye
Tina
There was a cure after all, fortunately I found a remedy.
Esque
> Chi wrote:
>> I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people feel the
>> same.
> I recommend it for new players, however, who may need all the help
> they can get if they haven't read (or don't want to read) the spoilers
> yet.
I don't. Let them play the game as it's meant to be played. They'll
get better quicker.
> Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts is more in
> keeping with the games very lifelike randomness.
It's more than that. It's more in keeping with the game's "no cheating"
rules.
> Still, because it is so easy to script a restart down to only 5-8
> keystrokes (*NIX / PC), playing without restarts must be called a
> voluntary challenge, whatever most people may feel about it.
Wait wait, so now cheating is defined by how easy it is to do something?
So, since it's easy as pie to savescum, I should do it? That's foolish.
"Not cheating" is not a voluntary challenge.
--
Bruce Labbate | We grew to war like a bloom reaching
| Toward the light. It felt so brutal,
| so transdermal, so alive.
Email: sol...@angband.org | - Maria McKee
Dion Nicolaas
> There was a cure after all, fortunately I found a remedy.
You feel foolish! You haven't been paying attention.
What happened between September 13 and October 4?
Just curious,
--
---. /) | http://www.erebus.demon.nl/dion/nethack.html
/ \ / _ _ | _ _ _ The NetHack Index at Erebus
-/ )\ | (_(_ (_) \_ ()\ ()\ \ dionni...@hotmail.com
_/___/ \| -------------------' Dion Nicolaas
Nigel Chapman
> > Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts is more
> > in keeping with the games very lifelike randomness.
Esque replied:
> It's more than that. It's more in keeping with the game's "no
> cheating" rules...
Pressing '?' in-game presents me with no information on these rules.
I would be interested to know what your authority source is for using
rule-based ethics here. Does the game *itself* have 'no cheating'
rules, or are you appealing to a more general ethical principle?
For example, when Tina writes
> but I can't take an ascension after cheating serious[ly]
she has an ethical basis for saying so. Claiming an ascension after
multiple restarts or savescumming diminishes the value of the
achievements of others who have ascended without these advantages.
It's as if you posted YAAP without mentioning that you were in
Wizard or Explore modes -- you've had an unfair advantage, and your
failure to mention it would be deceptive.
None of this applies to the using these tricks for their educational
value while learning the game (or even, strictly, to their fun value
at any time). Consider:
You aren't suggesting it's a 'real' game (ie, a game comparable
with games played without these advantages), therefore you are not
going to devalue the achievements of others in any way. Accordingly,
while giving yourself an advantage, you aren't leveraging that
advantage to the detriment of others, or the devaluation of their
achievements.
On the other hand, you will be able to try out a lot more activities
than would otherwise be possible, and it is to the clear benefit of
both yourself and the RGRN community that you become more skilled at
the game. The chances of a new player ascending, with or with out
these advantages are, of course, vanishingly small -- they
would need a lot of experience, and a good long time perusing the
spoilers. (This another interesting issue if there are indeed 'no
cheating' rules out there somewhere, given that the spoilers don't
come packaged with the game, but are easily accessible online.)
It is one of the things I like most about Nethack, that it allows
the players to determine their own goals in a particular game. If
someone's goal is getting better at the game, or just having a good
time, then of course, *anything* goes.
If their goal is an ascension, then they must produce one that is
meaningfully comparable to those of others, and for that purpose it
is reasonably clear that the socially agreed standard for allowable
advantages is having read the spoilers or the source, while playing
the game itself 'as given'.
Tina Hall
> Ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in message
> news:<MSGID_2=3A2433=2F888.111=40fidonet...@fidonet.org>
> ...
>
> > There was a cure after all, fortunately I found a remedy.
>
> You feel foolish! You haven't been paying attention.
>
> What happened between September 13 and October 4?
The first date just shows when I got around to changing the sig,
here. The second date just shows the date when I found the
wording for the new one.
Roughly between those slightly off dates was the internal
struggle with the unpleasant effects that cause the removing of
the sig in the first place. As you might guess, I won.
--
Bye
Tina
Tina Hall
> I wrote:
>
> > > Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts
> > > is more in keeping with the games very lifelike
> > > randomness.
>
> Esque replied:
>
> > It's more than that. It's more in keeping with the game's
> > "no cheating" rules...
>
>
> Pressing '?' in-game presents me with no information on these
> rules. I would be interested to know what your authority
> source is for using rule-based ethics here. Does the game
> *itself* have 'no cheating' rules, or are you appealing to a
> more general ethical principle?
It's not an option provided by the game, therefore it's cheating.
If you get a game where you can save and restore older games
after a mistake or dying, it's not cheating, if you can't do it,
playing around with batches is. If you've got an inbuild-
autoreroll, it's not cheating, if you haven't, manual reroll is.
> For example, when Tina writes
>
> > but I can't take an ascension after cheating serious[ly]
That's mis-quoted. 'Serious' wasn't refering to the cheating but
to how I'd look at an ascension.
> she has an ethical basis for saying so. Claiming an ascension
> after multiple restarts or savescumming diminishes the value
> of the achievements of others who have ascended without these
> advantages.
Not true. And it isn't an achievement how I define the word. An
achievement would be finding the cure for cancer. Nethack is
'just' a game. I can be astonished at, happy for or groaning with
other people's conduct, YA(F)AP or YASD. An ascension or YASD
with cheating isn't considered worth any reaction.
To use your terms, though, a cheater cannot lessen the
'achievement' of a non-cheater, as the cheater's game has no
'value'.
> It's as if you posted YAAP without mentioning that
> you were in Wizard or Explore modes -- you've had an unfair
> advantage, and your failure to mention it would be deceptive.
That's still only the one who does that who has to deal with it.
In effect, they cheat and deceive only themselves.
> None of this applies to the using these tricks for their
> educational value while learning the game (or even, strictly,
> to their fun value at any time). Consider:
Well, finally something we can agree on. I had lots of fun,
cheating, until I saw no more sense in it (on the Earth Plane),
and regret the abuse of a bug with my first three ascensions.
They don't really count, now, just for experience with the game.
(But I also never pretended that I didn't cheat/abuse.)
> On the other hand, you will be able to try out a lot more
> activities than would otherwise be possible,
You can try just about anything in wizardmode, it's just the long
way round compared to save-scumming.
> (This another
> interesting issue if there are indeed 'no cheating' rules out
> there somewhere, given that the spoilers don't come packaged
> with the game, but are easily accessible online.)
Information about the game doesn't really have anything to do
with this. You either try to tediously figure it out yourself (or
peruse the source if you can, which has to be available to anyone
who's got the binary, so by your arguments, it _is_ part of the
game), or you read spoilers.
> If their goal is an ascension, then they must produce one that
> is meaningfully comparable to those of others,
They must do nothing. It's their time, all I ask is honesty.
Wether something is meaningful is entirely up to the player.
Jorge Estrada
>
> If their goal is an ascension, then they must produce one that is
> meaningfully comparable to those of others, and for that purpose it
> is reasonably clear that the socially agreed standard for allowable
> advantages is having read the spoilers or the source, while playing
> the game itself 'as given'.
I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People post how
rerolling is cheating and writing things down on paper is cheating,
while the thing that gives the hugest advantage is reading the
spoilers and that is not 'cheating.'
to tell the truth, i would be more impressed with someone who rerolled
and accesended and didn't read spoilers then someone who did read the
spoilers and was playing illiterate , pacifist and random player
generation.
David Damerell
>Chi wrote:
>>I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people feel the
>>same.
>I recommend it for new players, however, who may need all the help
>they can get if they haven't read (or don't want to read) the spoilers
>yet.
If they want to learn how to play, they will do so more effectively by
learning how different starting equipment and stats can affect the
situation.
[Plus, starting players are still best off with Valkyries, and there's
little potential for rerolling there.]
>Still, because it is so easy to script a restart down to only 5-8
>keystrokes (*NIX / PC), playing without restarts must be called a
>voluntary challenge, whatever most people may feel about it.
Do you regard not save-scumming as a voluntary challenge? If not, why
not?
--
David Damerell <dame...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Nigel Chapman
> Do you regard not save-scumming as a voluntary challenge? If not,
> why not?
Save-scumming is certainly in a different league to restarting.
Anyone from (eg.) a MUD playing background will view rerolling as a
normal and accepted part of character creation, and think nothing of
it, whether there is software provision for it or not. On the other
hand, arranging backups of save files and then restoring them is a
premeditated circumvention of the way the game appears intended by
its authors to be played, as it effectively gives the player
unlimited lives.
When I described *not* restarting as a voluntary challenge, I meant
that it is (a) so simple to do, (b) so customary in many stats based
gaming contexts, and (c) so difficult for the game to prevent, that
for it *not* to occur requires a conscious decision on the part of
the player, when the thought 'This character's pretty hopeless'
occurs to them, as it must at some point. Save scudding, on the
other hand, requires premeditation *to* occur -- it doesn't happen
'naturally', like restarting, and may not even occur to some players.
So 'not save-scumming' is a passive, rather than an active choice,
like 'not restarting'. I wouldn't use the term 'voluntary challenge'
to describe them both without clarifying what I meant.
It's interesting though that in one case, restarting can have an effect
comparable in scale to save-scumming:
I think it's a curiosity of NetHack that restarting can be, in the
case of the Wizard class, a massive factor in a character's success,
mostly owing to the presence (or not) of a wand of polymorph. A pet
dragon (or something comparable) gives you an easy run through the
first fifteen levels, the contents of all shops (including 3K gold
from each, with the ensuing protection), and possibly even a set of
scales if anything does happen to it. To say nothing of what happens
if there's a ring of polymorph control to go with that (!). So
restarting wizards can have a massive impact on the character's
success. I personally think that making polymorph available to 15%
(or thereabouts) of level 1 Wizards like this is a design flaw in the
game.
I can think of two possible solutions. One would be to fix the
monetary value of a wizard's starting equipment. That way, they can
have a lot of minor stuff, or *just* the wand of polymorph.
The second option could occur on its own, or in conjunction with
this. Allow players to #reroll while still at T:1, and then
tune the rerolling to compensate for this feature, so that players
are effectively choosing the distribution of their stats, but not
significantly changing the total of them (as I believe can presently
occur, both through the random d6 addition to one of the stats, and
the adjustment of strength upward to accommodate the inventory
carried.)
Using option one with option two, you could allow the inventories
to regenerate as well, but in a balanced manner. This would make
restarting the game pointless in terms of gaining some kind of
starting advantage, and, I think, eliminate the large design flaw,
of which restarting is the most obvious symptom.
Passenger Pigeon
<ncha...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> When I described *not* restarting as a voluntary challenge, I meant
> that it is (a) so simple to do, (b) so customary in many stats based
> gaming contexts, and (c) so difficult for the game to prevent, that
> for it *not* to occur requires a conscious decision on the part of
> the player, when the thought 'This character's pretty hopeless'
> occurs to them, as it must at some point. Save scudding, on the
> other hand, requires premeditation *to* occur -- it doesn't happen
> 'naturally', like restarting, and may not even occur to some players.
The thought "This character's pretty hopeless" doesn't occur to me until
I'm looking at a tombstone.
Other than that, I agree -- if a player believes that his character is
completely doomed, he is justified in starting over. I don't think,
though, that any character can be completely doomed. Nethack is, in the
long run, disgustingly forgiving.
In a sense, then, save-scumming and restarting are very similar -- both
are a way to avoid the consequences of your actions, and both are thus
likely to prevent your learning how to deal with them. One could
theoretically ascend via protracted restarting until you receive a
sufficiently favorable random result (say, three wands of wishing in the
first room), but what would be the point?
> I think it's a curiosity of NetHack that restarting can be, in the
> case of the Wizard class, a massive factor in a character's success,
> mostly owing to the presence (or not) of a wand of polymorph. A pet
> dragon (or something comparable) gives you an easy run through the
> first fifteen levels, the contents of all shops (including 3K gold
> from each, with the ensuing protection), and possibly even a set of
> scales if anything does happen to it. To say nothing of what happens
> if there's a ring of polymorph control to go with that (!). So
> restarting wizards can have a massive impact on the character's
> success. I personally think that making polymorph available to 15%
> (or thereabouts) of level 1 Wizards like this is a design flaw in the
> game.
You cannot receive both a source of polymorph (including a potion) and a
ring of polymorph control; this is specifically prohibited. Also,
merely keeping your pet alive and having enough patience guarantees you
everything in a shop except for the wands and key the shopkeeper
carries; this starts out slow, but once you have a reasonable purse, you
can clean out a shop pretty quickly.
That noted, I agree, mostly because I think it's rather odd that Wizard
equipment varies so much more than any other class.
> I can think of two possible solutions. One would be to fix the
> monetary value of a wizard's starting equipment. That way, they can
> have a lot of minor stuff, or *just* the wand of polymorph.
I think this is a decent solution, except that a wand of polymorph is
only worth 200, which is almost certainly much less than the amount the
potions, scrolls and spellbooks are going to be worth. Perhaps each
item type could be restricted separately in terms of price?
--
William Burke, passenge...@hotmail.com contrariwise
Before you presume my rationality, I'm a Theatre major, Music minor.
I don't represent UCSC; it represents me. Go Slugs!
http://www.passengerpigeon.net (not com, not org)
Tina Hall
> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People
> post how rerolling is cheating and writing things down on
Writing what things down?
> paper is cheating, while the thing that gives the hugest
> advantage is reading the spoilers and that is not 'cheating.'
That would make the playing skill dependant on the individual
memory capacity of the player.
Like, you get the message 'You have a strange feeling for a
moment, then it passes.' What did just happen?
> to tell the truth, i would be more impressed with someone who
> rerolled and accesended and didn't read spoilers then someone
> who did read the spoilers and was playing illiterate ,
> pacifist and random player generation.
I don't care what kind of ascension would impress you or anyone,
I'm not playing for your entertainment but mine.
Chris Mears
>Jorge Estrada wrote:
>
>> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People
>> post how rerolling is cheating and writing things down on
>
>Writing what things down?
Such as smoky potions = gain level for example, to negate the annoying
loss of item identification from (master) mind flayer attacks. I don't
think writing down "Vault on level 2, entrance to Gnomish Mines on level
4" is considered cheating.
--
Chris Mears | "Six months go by very quickly when
Melbourne, Australia | you're a genius." -- Robert Plant
V'rgo
>
> It's not an option provided by the game, therefore it's cheating.
> If you get a game where you can save and restore older games
> after a mistake or dying, it's not cheating, if you can't do it,
> playing around with batches is. If you've got an inbuild-
> autoreroll, it's not cheating, if you haven't, manual reroll is.
IMNSHO manual reroll is *not* cheating. What would be cheating is if
you could reroll the stats with given inventory - meaning, you start
out with a Wizard; str=9 dex=8 ; equipment includes blessed scroll of
genocide and a spellbook of magic missile [or any other favorite
spell] and a ring of slow digestion; then you decide you don't like
the str and dex and re-roll, keeping the good inventory while getting
new stats from the RNG. 'Course you can't do something like that - but
that's the idea.
--
V'rgo, the #1 Pet Hater of rec.games.roguelike.nethack
and a figment of his own imagination
David Damerell
>David Damerell wrote:
>>Do you regard not save-scumming as a voluntary challenge? If not,
>>why not?
>Save-scumming is certainly in a different league to restarting.
Although, curiously, no criterion you advance can distinguish them.
>Anyone from (eg.) a MUD playing background will view rerolling as a
>normal and accepted part of character creation, and think nothing of
>it, whether there is software provision for it or not.
For that matter, anyone who plays proprietary computer games these days
will think of being able to save at any time (and restore after death or
even significant screwups) as perfectly normal and accepted. So what's the
difference?
>On the other
>hand, arranging backups of save files and then restoring them is a
>premeditated circumvention of the way the game appears intended by
>its authors to be played, as it effectively gives the player
>unlimited lives.
So is rerolling. Since some roguelikes offer autorollers and NH does not,
the intention is equally clear. So what's the difference?
>When I described *not* restarting as a voluntary challenge, I meant
>that it is (a) so simple to do, (b) so customary in many stats based
>gaming contexts, and (c) so difficult for the game to prevent,
Save scumming is a) so simple to do, b) customary in nearly all modern
computer games, and c) apparently impossible for the game to prevent. So
what's the difference?
>occurs to them, as it must at some point. Save scudding, on the
>other hand, requires premeditation *to* occur -- it doesn't happen
>'naturally', like restarting, and may not even occur to some players.
This is a pretty tenuous argument, especially since a large proportion of
players will have backup savefiles around to protect from machine
instability. So what's the difference?
>I think it's a curiosity of NetHack that restarting can be, in the
>case of the Wizard class, a massive factor in a character's success,
>mostly owing to the presence (or not) of a wand of polymorph. A pet
>dragon (or something comparable) gives you an easy run through the
>first fifteen levels,
Until it becomes separated from you and kills you. I don't see any great
bias in wizard YAAPs towards saying 'fortunately, I started with a
WoPoly' - after all, anyone can find and readily ID one on Dlvl 1. The
last time I did, Kouran the hell hound didn't save me from death in the
Mines.
>scales if anything does happen to it. To say nothing of what happens
>if there's a ring of polymorph control to go with that (!).
Um, low-level characters don't last long in powerful forms.
Darshan Shaligram
> Ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
> >Jorge Estrada wrote:
> >
> >> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People
> >> post how rerolling is cheating and writing things down on
> >
> >Writing what things down?
>
> Such as smoky potions = gain level for example, to negate the annoying
> loss of item identification from (master) mind flayer attacks. I don't
> think writing down "Vault on level 2, entrance to Gnomish Mines on level
> 4" is considered cheating.
Neither do I. I don't do even that, but that's because I'm lazy,
not because I think it's cheating (I *always* forget where I've
stashed my stuff and have to hunt up and down, swearing
continuously, to find my stash).
As for writing down stuff to guard against mind flayers, I agree.
That's not in the spirit of the game.
Darshan
Darshan Shaligram
> > advantage is reading the spoilers and that is not 'cheating.'
>
> That would make the playing skill dependant on the individual
> memory capacity of the player.
I agree. Spoilers give you information about the game. How you
apply the information is what matters.
> Like, you get the message 'You have a strange feeling for a
> moment, then it passes.' What did just happen?
Hold on while I search the source... :)
> > to tell the truth, i would be more impressed with someone who
> > rerolled and accesended and didn't read spoilers then someone
> > who did read the spoilers and was playing illiterate ,
> > pacifist and random player generation.
>
> I don't care what kind of ascension would impress you or anyone,
> I'm not playing for your entertainment but mine.
Agreed again. If a person feels rerolling is good and noble,
there's nothing to stop him/her. rgrn is no court of law.
Darshan "Court is in recess" Shaligram
"You've rerolled! The Keystone Kops are after you!"
Tina Hall
> David Damerell wrote:
>
> > Do you regard not save-scumming as a voluntary challenge? If
> > not, why not?
>
> Save-scumming is certainly in a different league to
> restarting. Anyone from (eg.) a MUD playing background will
> view rerolling as a normal and accepted part of character
> creation, and think nothing of it, whether there is software
> provision for it or not. On the other hand, arranging backups
> of save files and then restoring them is a premeditated
> circumvention of the way the game appears intended by its
> authors to be played, as it effectively gives the player
> unlimited lives.
How can you write that and not see the contradiction of your own
words?
Saving and restoring to have unlimited tries is a normal and
accepted part in a lot of (I think most) games.
Rerolling is a circumvention of the way the game appears intended
by its authors to be played.
You either look at what's 'normal and accepted', or look at 'what
appears intended by its authors'. Decide on one and then apply it
to both issues.
[snip more contradiction on the same topic and some suggestions
for an in-game reroll]
If a reroll is included, I'd welcome it, as long as it isn't, it
_isn't_.
I'd also welcome a lot of switches in the defaults.nh, to
customize for individual player levels and a menustyle 'shop'
with some money/points to spend at the start to individually
chose starting equipment from the different now random
possibilities.
Tina Hall
> Chris Mears <ch...@adjective-army.com> wrote
> > Ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
> >
> > >Jorge Estrada wrote:
> > >
> > >> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group.
> > >> People post how rerolling is cheating and writing things
> > >> down on
> > >
> > >Writing what things down?
> >
> > Such as smoky potions = gain level for example, to negate
> > the annoying loss of item identification from (master) mind
> > flayer attacks. I don't think writing down "Vault on level
> > 2, entrance to Gnomish Mines on level 4" is considered
> > cheating.
>
> Neither do I. I don't do even that, but that's because I'm
> lazy, not because I think it's cheating
LOL. All you need is a chart with a mark in some column. Writing
down whole sentences is a bit too much bother. I'm just as lazy,
often forget to make a note of v or f for vaults or fountains, or
sometimes even what kind of shop that was...
> (I *always* forget where I've stashed my stuff and have to hunt
> up and down, swearing continuously, to find my stash).
See, much trouble could be saved... ;)
> As for writing down stuff to guard against mind flayers, I
> agree. That's not in the spirit of the game.
True.
Tina Hall
> Ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
> >Jorge Estrada wrote:
> >
> >> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People
> >> post how rerolling is cheating and writing things down on
> >
> >Writing what things down?
>
> Such as smoky potions = gain level for example, to negate the
What if the game doesn't prompt for naming because the scroll
already has a name? Like (paraphrasing, I _do_ have a bad
memory):
You pick up a scroll called 133 kernod, it turns to dust.
If I hadn't already price-id'd the scroll, I'd be prompted to
give it a name. So I take a note for that scroll.
That's really tedious with potions too, first name them, and when
I try some out in a quit corner, I have to un-name them before
using.
> annoying loss of item identification from (master) mind flayer
> attacks.
I agree, but honestly, that would just be too much bother anyway.
:) Of course, at least with wands I can identify them (or rather
tell apart those I know I have) from the letter they have in the
inventory.
> I don't think writing down "Vault on level 2,
> entrance to Gnomish Mines on level 4" is considered cheating.
Good, we agree there then.
Chris Mears
>Chris Mears <ch...@adjective-army.com> wrote
>> Ti...@typhoon.kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>>
>> >Jorge Estrada wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think that is the weirdist thing about this group. People
>> >> post how rerolling is cheating and writing things down on
>> >
>> >Writing what things down?
>>
>> Such as smoky potions = gain level for example, to negate the annoying
>> loss of item identification from (master) mind flayer attacks. I don't
>> think writing down "Vault on level 2, entrance to Gnomish Mines on level
>> 4" is considered cheating.
>
>Neither do I. I don't do even that, but that's because I'm lazy,
>not because I think it's cheating (I *always* forget where I've
>stashed my stuff and have to hunt up and down, swearing
>continuously, to find my stash).
That's why it's worth the trouble. I play on a Windows machine, so I
always have a session of GVim running concurrently to note interesting
things. If you can keep the notes minimal, you'll be more inclined to
keep them. For example, "$G 2" means a general store on level 2, "_N 4"
is a neutral altar on level 4, and so on.
Darshan Shaligram
> Tina Hall wrote:
> >
> > It's not an option provided by the game, therefore it's cheating.
> > If you get a game where you can save and restore older games
> > after a mistake or dying, it's not cheating, if you can't do it,
> > playing around with batches is. If you've got an inbuild-
> > autoreroll, it's not cheating, if you haven't, manual reroll is.
>
> IMNSHO manual reroll is *not* cheating.
Okay, and I feel that it is. It gives you an advantage that the
game's developers didn't intend you to have. Take what the game
gives you and do your best with it. You can always improve your
stats and gather better equipment in-game, and that's the *right*
way to do it.
Darshan
Hendrik Weimer
> V'rgo <wwwardj...@rasi.lr.ttu.ee> wrote
> >
> > IMNSHO manual reroll is *not* cheating.
>
> Okay, and I feel that it is. It gives you an advantage that the
> game's developers didn't intend you to have. Take what the game
> gives you and do your best with it. You can always improve your
> stats and gather better equipment in-game, and that's the *right*
> way to do it.
I think it depends on the reason why you are rerolling. If you reroll
until you get a /oPoly or a MM, I would consider this cheating,
too. But if you take a look at your stats and your inventory and say
'Hey, this wizard is too poor, it won't be fun playing it', I wouldn't
blame anyone if he or she is rerolling. Of course, if you're able to
ascend as a pacifist, you won't need this.
It seems to me a bit like wishing for artifacts. There are some people
(like me) who never ever do this, but some others who regard this as a
ordinary conduct. But I could never call someone who is wishing for
artifacts a cheater.
cu,
Hendrik
Kathrin Paschen
> dars...@aztec.soft.net (Darshan Shaligram) writes:
>
> > V'rgo <wwwardj...@rasi.lr.ttu.ee> wrote
> > >
> > > IMNSHO manual reroll is *not* cheating.
> >
> > Okay, and I feel that it is. It gives you an advantage that the
> > game's developers didn't intend you to have. Take what the game
> > gives you and do your best with it. You can always improve your
> > stats and gather better equipment in-game, and that's the *right*
> > way to do it.
>
> I think it depends on the reason why you are rerolling. If you reroll
> until you get a /oPoly or a MM, I would consider this cheating,
> too. But if you take a look at your stats and your inventory and say
> 'Hey, this wizard is too poor, it won't be fun playing it', I wouldn't
> blame anyone if he or she is rerolling. Of course, if you're able to
> ascend as a pacifist, you won't need this.
I get that feeling too, looking at some starting characters. It does
seem to be a poor indicator of success, though. I try to make the best
out of what the RNG gives me, and I think if I relied on having a wand
of Polymorph to make my pet tough, I'd develop strange playing
habits. Then again, every time that I do get an early /oPoly and zap
it at my kitten, I end up with a pet grid bug.
Most deaths come from stupid errors. Well, mine do, anyway. With a
good start, maybe you will be more likely to recover from one such
error. In the long run, though, I doubt that the starting stats and
equipment have very much to do with the character's eventual success
(or lack of success).
Speaking of stupid errors, I wonder if I'm the only one who dies on
every second visit to the Astral Plane. Pestilence poisoned my lovely
vegan weaponless Monk today. In the future, I'll definitely use a wish
on a spellbook of Cure Sickness.
Darshan Shaligram
> dars...@aztec.soft.net (Darshan Shaligram) writes:
>
> > V'rgo <wwwardj...@rasi.lr.ttu.ee> wrote
> > >
> > > IMNSHO manual reroll is *not* cheating.
> >
> > Okay, and I feel that it is. It gives you an advantage that the
> > game's developers didn't intend you to have. Take what the game
> > gives you and do your best with it. You can always improve your
> > stats and gather better equipment in-game, and that's the *right*
> > way to do it.
>
> I think it depends on the reason why you are rerolling. If you reroll
> until you get a /oPoly or a MM, I would consider this cheating,
> too. But if you take a look at your stats and your inventory and say
> 'Hey, this wizard is too poor, it won't be fun playing it', I wouldn't
> blame anyone if he or she is rerolling.
I don't see how you distinguish the two. Both attempt to gain an
advantage by doing something outside the game that the game doesn't
want you to do.
The fun of the game is to take a wimpy character with middling
(or downright lousy) stats, dud skills and iffy equipment and build
him/her up into a minotaur-smasher.
If you don't like your stats, improve them *in-game*. That's what
the game's for.
I'm not blaming anyone either - this is a game and you should do
what you enjoy, and if rerolling gives you fun, go right ahead.
I'm just making it clear why I never reroll.
Darshan
Nigel Chapman
I'll post a YANI to formally suggest the #reroll option discussed above,
but otherwise I think I'll drop out of this thread about here. We seem
to be in consensus that for experimentation or personal enjoyment anyone
can (of course) do anything they wish with the game, but for an
ascension to be considered right (which necessarily means playing
fairly), neither rerolling or savescumming are acceptable practices.
Within this framework, whether or not they are equally deplorable is a
point of purely academic interest, at least to me, which I should have
made clearer in answering David's query about this.
Returning to theme, did anyone else think the 'Openings' book was a
worthwhile idea? While recognizing that the key to success is
flexibility in the face of random happenings, I'd be interested in
cataloguing some other specific strategies for getting off to a good
start. One of the main appeals of something like 'the protection
racket' is the big risk that you take early to gain a bigger advantage
in the middle game. Are there other ploys like this?
(Thanks to Chi for the additional note on Healers.)
Trevor Powell
>
> I think it depends on the reason why you are rerolling. If you reroll
> until you get a /oPoly or a MM, I would consider this cheating,
> too. But if you take a look at your stats and your inventory and say
> 'Hey, this wizard is too poor, it won't be fun playing it', I wouldn't
> blame anyone if he or she is rerolling.
Confession time: When I was trying to ascend a wizard, I used to
reroll any wizard who was rolled up with an intelligence lower than
17, due to the hunger effects of spellcasting with low intelligence
levels.
Ironically, the wizard I ended up ascending started with an intelligence
of 14 -- I simply never noticed until I'd gotten a fair distance into
the game. He also had fairly useless starting equipment.
In my experience, starting stats/equipment seems to have an almost
negligable influence on standard games (Foodless ascensions, of
course, are a notable exception). What seems to help my games
more than anything else are:
1. An altar around Dlvl 4-7, or a co-aligned MineTown altar.
2. Early /oW or multiple magic lamps in the Mines.
3. Large armour and/or scroll shops around Dlvl 1-7. Other
shops don't seem to help very much, in practice (though they're
convenient later in the game!)
Trevor
Boudewijn Waijers
3BC390FD...@bigpond.com...
> David Damerell wrote:
>> Do you regard not save-scumming as a voluntary challenge? If not,
>> why not?
> Save-scumming is certainly in a different league to restarting.
> Anyone from (eg.) a MUD playing background will view rerolling as a
> normal and accepted part of character creation, and think nothing of
> it, whether there is software provision for it or not. On the other
> hand, arranging backups of save files and then restoring them is a
> premeditated circumvention of the way the game appears intended by
> its authors to be played, as it effectively gives the player
> unlimited lives.
I don't think the Dev Team intended #quit-ting for new equipment either. If
they had intended that, they would have presented you with the equipment,
and given you a choice to either accept this character or start over again.
After all, during the process of character creation, you are constantly
given the choice to (q)uit, EXCEPT after the last step, when your equipment
is determined. So they must have intended for you to take the equipment
given.
--
Boudewijn Waijers - www.win.tue.nl/~kroisos/nethack
Ash nazg durbatulūk, One ring to rule them all,
ash nazg gimbatul, one ring to find them,
ash nazg thrakatulūk, one ring to bring them all,
agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. And in the darkness bind them.
Donald Welsh
Shaligram) wrote:
>Agreed again. If a person feels rerolling is good and noble,
It's childish. I mean this literally; I saw one kid start several games
and quit them just because he didn't start with his then-favorite item
(a spellbook of taming).
I checked his starting inventory a couple of times and pointed out that
he had an *even better* item, e.g. ring of slow digestion, ring of
conflict, or speed boots.
He'd have been better off playing in explore mode and wishing for what
he wanted.
>there's nothing to stop him/her. rgrn is no court of law.
It's a court of public opinion, if you want to think of it that way.
Esque
> It's childish. I mean this literally; I saw one kid start several games
> and quit them just because he didn't start with his then-favorite item
> (a spellbook of taming).
He'd be waiting for quite a long time, then.
--
Bruce Labbate | Time is an arrangement.
| Time is an arranger.
| I am a derangement.
Email: sol...@angband.org | - The Pixies
@qualityassistant.com Neil Stevens
> opening: The Protection Racket
> classification: dungeon-diving, temporary pacifism
> recommend: archaeologist, wizard / gnome
This is one of the must frustrating things I've ever tried :-)
Oh man, if a newbie tries this he'll quit Nethack. I've burned through
about 30 games of it, managed to actually buy an AC bonus twice (the only
other time I actually survived to give money to the priest I was too poor).
Oh, and the two times I got an AC bonus I didn't survive to the minetown
upstairs.
Things to think about:
One of the better ways to survive that deep at level 1 is to get invisible,
but surprise! If you do, you can't sell anything to the shopkeepers and
then you might not afford to buy protection. Killing them at experience
level 1 isn't an option unless you get a wand of lightning, or polymorph
your pet into someting truly strong. (and even then it's not costless, as
you're not playing chaotic)
> This is worth a few restarts to get set up.
...
> 1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving directly to the
> mine town and seeing if you find a magic lamp there before deciding
> whether or not to continue the game.
For a mage, I think this strategy basically is a "reroll until you get
killer starting equipment." So I stopped.
Interesting idea to try, though.
V'rgo
original msg by Nigel Chapman so I'm just piggybacking on Neil
Stevens' article]
Neil Stevens wrote:
> Nigel Chapman wrote:
>
>> 1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving directly to the
>> mine town and seeing if you find a magic lamp there before deciding
>> whether or not to continue the game.
That is my strategy all the time, except for the quitting part. First
thing I do is try to go to the Minetown, see if I can purchase a magic
lamp and acquire holy water to bless it, if necessary, then wish for a
killer artifact [so sue me!] and then go for the rest of the Mines and
the Dungeon. If there is no magic lamp then I'll just go down and get
the luckstone, sacrifice to get at least some artifact and proceed
with a bit more caution...
David Goldfarb
V'rgo <wwwardj...@rasi.lr.ttu.ee> wrote:
>That is my strategy all the time, except for the quitting part. First
>thing I do is try to go to the Minetown, see if I can purchase a magic
>lamp and acquire holy water to bless it, if necessary, then wish for a
>killer artifact [so sue me!] and then go for the rest of the Mines and
>the Dungeon.
I'm not gonna sue you: I'm firmly in the camp of, "If the Dev Team
didn't want us to wish for artifacts, they shouldn't have made it so
likely that sacrificing will yield a crappy one."
On the other hand, for an early-game character, dragon scale mail improves
survivability at least as much as an artifact-weapon wish. Sometimes
the best defense really is a good defense.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Hey, mister! Are you about to drag our brother off
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | to a bleak nether realm of despair where the
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | future is nothing but an endless sea of anguish
| and horrible misery?"
| "Yah."
|"We wanna go tooooo!" -- Animaniacs
Nathan F Russell
>Donald Welsh <dwe...@nospam.melbpc.org.au> deserves a cookie for saying:
>> It's childish. I mean this literally; I saw one kid start several games
>> and quit them just because he didn't start with his then-favorite item
>> (a spellbook of taming).
>
>He'd be waiting for quite a long time, then.
Why? Too high level?
Nathan
Esque
> Why? Too high level?
Spellbooks of taming don't exist.
--
Bruce Labbate | I'll bet you never thought I'd try
| Your mouth, my love, was open wide
| Singing, oh you were going to be
Email: sol...@angband.org | My life. - PJ Harvey
David Goldfarb
Esque <sol...@angband.org> wrote:
>Nathan F Russell <nrus...@acsu.buffalo.edu> deserves a cookie for saying:
>> Esque <sol...@angband.org> wrote:
>>>He'd be waiting for quite a long time, then.
>
>> Why? Too high level?
>
>Spellbooks of taming don't exist.
But spellbooks of charm monster do.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"Given enough time and the right audience,
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | the darkest of secrets scum over into
| mere curiosities."
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Neil Gaiman, _Sandman_ #53
Esque
> In article <9qr0bg$g07$1...@news-int.gatech.edu>,
> Esque <sol...@angband.org> wrote:
>>Spellbooks of taming don't exist.
> But spellbooks of charm monster do.
Agreed.
--
Bruce Labbate | "The bond one can create
| with head wounds and laser blasts
| can never be broken."
Email: sol...@angband.org | - Dr. Doom
Kev The Chiller
Tina Hall wrote:
> Nigel Chapman wrote:
> > Chi wrote:
> >
> > > I don't restart for equipment, and I'm sure other people
> > > feel the same.
> >
> > I recommend it for new players, however, who may need all the
> > help they can get if they haven't read (or don't want to
> > read) the spoilers yet.
>
> If they get used to starting with good equipment, how are they
> supposed to learn to go on without?
>
> If you advertise cheating, you might as well recommend save-
> scumming.
>
> > Like most players, I agree that playing without restarts is
> > more in keeping with the games very lifelike randomness.
>
> It's part of the rules of the game. If it wasn't, there would be
> auto-reroll available.
well, savescums are able to restart their games and don't feel bad about that
(monk scenario: I got healing instead of sleep, aah yes, I restart the game.
Yeah, now I have sleep spell!)
>
> > Still, because it is so easy to script a restart down to only
> > 5-8 keystrokes (*NIX / PC), playing without restarts must be
> > called a voluntary challenge, whatever most people may feel
> > about it.
>
> Whatever you might feel about it, it still must be called
> cheating, IMAO.
>
> It's also easy to save-scum on a PC.
>
> > eg. on a PC, make w.bat as eg. "nethack -uMy_Name -A -r
> > Gnome". Then "ALT-Q y q w <cr> n m" to restart with these
> > options. Or just set the options in the default.nh file for
> > even quicker startups.
>
> That's the long way round, with everything set in the defaults.nh
> and a n.bat, it's 'n [enter] i [esc] ALT-q y [esc]'
>
> > > >1. This can be played as a variant of dungeon-diving
> > > >directly to the mine town and seeing if you find a magic
> > > >lamp there before deciding whether or not to continue the
> > > >game.
> > >
> > > I don't ever do this either.
> >
> > As above, I think it's good for starting players. Of course,
> > beginning from the command line with the -X option for
> > explore mode will achieve the educational goals a whole lot
> > more effectively -- since they get a wand of wishing and they
> > can't be killed.
>
> And that's what it's there for.
>
> Don't get me wrong, people may cheat however much they like, it's
> their time, but I can't take an ascension after cheating serious.
heh...I didn't post my fake "YAFAP" Kev-Mon-Mal-Cha ...
so even I noticed that that isn't a serious asc.:>
> It's useful to learn about the game but nothing more.
yeah right ..... I think many will still remember my old 3.3.0 savescum days..
and I tell you, I REGRET IT....
--
If I ascend, I'll write a "how to ascend Ice Mages" spoiler.
It will be long and detailed. That I promise.
--Kev